Don't Say "DEI," Just Make it Mean Something

Erin Stampp, she/her, MPP - Director, Professional Development
Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis

In this episode of Proofing Stage, hosts Michelle Bond and Joan Kanner are joined by DEI practitioner Erin Stampp. Together, they unpack the challenges and necessities of implementing effective DEI strategies, even for minority business owners.

Erin emphasizes that true diversity goes beyond visibility; focusing on fostering an inclusive culture where diverse identities are seen and valued. The conversation also covers practical aspects like dietary restrictions in food businesses and universal design. Michelle and Joan share their experiences with integrating these practices into Bottoms Up Bagels, including staff reticence and industry norms.

Erin highlights the importance of relational, equity-centered leadership, which involves creating a supportive environment through active listening and engagement. She addresses retention challenges and the truly counter-cultural work of inclusion and systemic change. 

Join us for a very open conversation about our blind spots, power-sharing in leadership, and the self-compassion required to make it stick. Like:

• Asking for, listening to and implementing input is where it’s at
• How we can turn our exclamation points into question marks
• Where the anti-racism, anti-sexism fairy dust resides
• The trappings of cancel culture
• Taking a sec to acknowledge what’s working and build on it
• Big, sexy (self-) compliments go a long way

Links

Check out one of Erin’s current projects, a Desegregation History Timeline (education aid to advance culture change)

Connect with Erin Stampp
LinkedIn
Instagram

Faux Sponsor, "Cartoon Mallet" 
- written and performed by Joan Kanner

Theme music by Thorn Haze
Additional music:
Combat Morning by Den Writeman (via Pixabay)
Music for Puzzle Game by Ivantraveso (via Pixabay)

Executive Producers,  Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond

Podcast cover art by Lisa Orye

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

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Transcript

Erin Stampp (00:00.046)
What would you rather be funny or fucking hilarious? You know, so. 

Joan Kanner
I love superlatives and I love the English language, even though it fails so often to capture things. 

Erin Stampp 
Well, you know, what's interesting even about cuss words, the conversation around cuss words is that I'm like, also the idea that fuck is a bad word is also a construct. Like, I don't think so. I'm like, you know, of course now there's times and places where you need to be thoughtful about using it, you know, depending on how you want to be perceived. But to me, it's just a helpful word to express your feelings. 

Michelle Bond
This is Proofing Stage with me, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And me, Joan Kanner. We're queer female founders who over a decade ago envisioned and created products and services designed with end users in mind. Go figure. 

Michelle Bond
Frustrated in our prior careers, we began to consider what all our energy and passion can do if we use it on our own terms. A company with karma as its driving force, a music app that put users in control, and for the last eight years, a bagel business. 

Joan Kaner
This podcast is about our experiences and the nitty gritty of being an underrepresented small business owner. Just like we've worked to fill the gap in quality bagels, lox, and schmear, these conversations fill the gap of knowledge, mentorship, and straight talk that are missing from other business pods and success stories.

I come to the table with a ton of customer service and compliance experience, from a sports complex startup to new university centers to many years in grants and contracts administration, not to mention social science research, including focus group and survey work. 

Michelle Bond
And I've combined a passion for hospitality, communications, and PR with community development and diversity training, all with the aim of engaging others to actively show up in the spaces we all occupy.

Together we have a lot to offer and we have a lot to learn. 

Joan Kanner
So join us and our brilliant guests in this space between, that a girl and I told you so.

Joan Kanner (02:13.006)
Today we have with us Erin Stampp, an inclusion, equity and diversity practitioner, and currently the Director of Professional Development at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. Welcome to Proofing Stage. In anticipation of today, I watched the movie CODA a second time.

Erin Stampp
[laughs]

Joan Kanner
So let's reclaim some narratives and change the perceptions of our communities. 

Erin Stampp
Oh my God, you're going to have me giggling the whole time. I'm not going to... 

Joan Kanner
That's the hope. That's a point. I think part of the pod, too, is that like, you know, we want to like address some real shit, but if you can't like the people that you're listening to, like you're going to tune me out. 

Erin Stampp 
Oh, a thousand percent. I mean, that's the basic nature of our work is that, yeah, change is hard, but if we're doing it relationally, it's way better and more effective. 

Michelle Bond
Erin, we're so excited to have you here. Thank you for agreeing to do this. I mean, not only because I think I've said before, I could listen to you and Joan. It used to be the thought of like a public access TV that was just you and Joan kicking it around the whole time. But I think in the podcast era, we might have to figure out an offshoot or something. But no, we go way back. And that said, you know, life gets in the way and we haven't been super in-touch in every phase and twist and turn, but it's been so incredible to follow your journey and see the way that you have kept justice and inclusion at the core of everything that you've done in some pretty, I think, groundbreaking ways. So, we're really excited to have you here to just bat some things around. And none of these are conversations with beginning, middles and ends, but we really hope to just give folks some stuff to think about and mainly make them feel like they're not alone. 

Erin Stampp 
Oooh... The juggle struggle is real. It's such a pleasure to keep up.

Erin Stampp  (04:16.173)
I'm always down for a good conversation about how we navigate you know, the joy and pain that is always together in this journey. So thanks a lot for having me. 

Joan Kanner
So Erin, for me, but also other female business owners, when it comes to being a minority business owner, you don't need a DEI policy or a program, right? I mean, you just simply "get it" by nature of being a minority. 

Erin Stampp 
Oh yeah, that's it. Just it's done. It's a wrap. You know, just everybody's the same. We're not at all...

Joan Kanner
Like as a queer person, I should be able to speak for all queer people. 

Erin Stampp 
goodness. Yeah. man. That's a question that we could spend the whole time unpacking, right? Certainly not. I mean, really, truly. I think that it's interesting because in our work, we talk a lot in the DEI space, we talk a lot about, you know, we're thinking about recruitment, diverse candidates. And we really move away from that language because one, it's dehumanizing and two, what does it mean to be diverse? Like you can understand the value of diversity, but we all only see the world as we are. That's one of my favorite quotes that we use a lot in implicit bias training is about, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are. Right? And so I think that generally speaking, we tend to think, when we think about DEI, we tend to think about the identities that are most impacted, right? So as women, we can very much relate to a conversation. As queer people, we can relate to a conversation with people who have a similar identity and there is a camaraderie. But I think one of the challenges is that we don't make, we look at it very binary, right? So you either understand the identity or you don't. And...

Erin Stampp  (06:18.478)
...what we understand is that "both/and" is very helpful. "Both/and thinking" is very helpful. Like I can be a woman who has a similar experience, you know, in that space. But if I am a white woman and my colleague is a black woman, then I have to recognize that how we experience being a woman in this space is going to be different, right? That we have some commonalities and there will be some differences in terms of how she may experience because we're never just one identity first of all, right? That's that intersectionality piece that's so important that none of our identities are number one and monolith, you know? Not all white people, gay people, straight people, black people are the same. And that we are mixtures of multiple identities. 


So the fact that I am a white cis woman who is a single mother, and a full-time worker, those five identities are very important to who I am and how I see the world and how me being a woman impacts me being a woman in the world. Does that make sense? So I think it's number one, everybody needs work in this area. There is not a person that is done with developing in the DEI space. That's just because my experience is my experience, but, I have to be able to make space for your experience, number one. 

Number two, we're socialized our whole lives to see the world in a particular way. So we can't, you know, there isn't one DEI training or one conversation we're gonna have that's gonna have a sync relating with everybody and understanding where everybody's coming from. It's about building a skillset of curiosity and openness and then space for people to tell us about who they are, right? 

And then I think, the other big piece is that we all have, because we have our own identities, we have blind spots. So if you're a minority business owner, you still have to have people around you that relate, that have, represent other experiences, other identities, other needs. You know, I've said before, like, when I find out one of my bosses, you know, is not a caregiver in any way, I'm nervous.

Michelle Bond
Hmmm...

Erin Stampp  (08:43.309)
Because I wonder, will they have an understanding of the fact that I have aging parents and children that I'm taking care of? So having, if I am a business owner and I am not a caregiver, that's okay. I'm not saying anything wrong with it, but I have to realize that that's a blind spot for me, right? That I have to think about that in terms of creating an inclusive culture that people that I work with, the policies of how, you know, my leave time or, you know, whatever, how I run my business needs to be.

If I value diversity, equity and inclusion, it needs to be people-centric and you have to ask people what they need. 

Joan Kanner
So, Erin, I really appreciate your response and I feel like there's another myth besides what I wanted to open with, which is: DEI only applies to your staff, applies to HR only. I feel like you have a different end user than we have had with a food business. But being in food has knocked me on my ass in a good way. And I thought about just the first thing that comes to [mind is] dietary restrictions, how religion impacts what food you can ingest, and also allergens, which is not just about, obviously, you want to de-risk exposing people to that as well. But I've gotten to the point where I can be very intense saying, "you know that customer is Muslim, use a different frying pan. I just had bacon on that other thing." 

So I just wanted to talk to you more about, that and pulling away from like just your staff to like whoever the hell your end user is. 

Erin Stampp 
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting because when I started in doing DEI in medicine, I was like, "what am I going to be able to tell doctors, like, literal brain surgeons?" Oh, my gosh, I don't have nothing to do. And, you know, and it's no disrespect, I have lots of love for my colleagues. 

But, you know, one of the things that's beautiful about diversity is that we all bring different skill sets. And so the things that come naturally to me, communication, listening - this idea that I'm going to try to change a policy and it's going to impact hourly workers. And there are no hourly workers in the conversation. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. Right. 

Erin Stampp 
It's problematic. And this seems like, you know, sitting here, we're going to be like, yeah, obviously, but we're living in a system that says...

Erin Stampp  (11:08.43)
Some people - leaders - are smarter, more power. We know better. That's right. It's just paternalism that gets really tricky in, in dominant culture. And where we think we know better and we can make decisions on behalf of. I like to think about equity centered leadership, relational equity centered leadership. And in that you are bringing people together who are impacted by what you're doing and you're asking them what they need, right? You have an aligned goal. So like for us, in my role, I'm actually training staff and faculty and some trainees, residents and fellows in the DEI space around healthcare. And then their end user is the students, medical students or researchers. 

So we're thinking, I'm thinking about giving them skills, a toolbox. I don't love the toolbox idea, we could rip that apart. 

Joan Kanner
Yeah.

Erin Stampp 
If you will, some skill sets to start with, to be able to foster an inclusive, supportive learning environment, right? And what I need to learn and be heard might look different than what it means what how Michelle feels seen, heard, you know. And so, I'm a big fan of, you know, having your mission and your vision. And then collecting your team and finding out what do they need to be successful? What helps them thrive in their environment? How do they feel like - because we know in terms of employee engagement across sectors - people need to feel like one, they're a part of something larger than themselves, right? Which you all have been brilliant at doing. And that they feel like they are seen and valued for their contribution to that mission.

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Erin Stampp 
And so some people want a big thank you in front of the whole team. People are cool with that note and just copy my supervisor. Yeah. So to me, it's about asking. And I know that's not revolutionary... 

Michelle Bond
No.


Erin Stampp 
But these days asking and then actually listening and implementing, because what I see a lot is we do a lot of surveying people, but then we don't, if we don't agree with the feedback, we're like, eh, you know...

Michelle Bond (13:36.494)
My god, yeah, I was gonna make a comment but don't... Well, let me make it real quick. I know Joan's [opposite of penchant] for survey answers that are not put to use in any kind of way. It's kind of led us on our entrepreneurial journey, but that specifically. But no, the asking and then the listening and then the implementing. You know, we've... and this kind of ties into the general landscape piece of it all. But when we started, BUB, we were both coming from other careers. And so we had been in, you know, Joan in academia, I me, in nonprofit consulting, but we had been in these spaces that were more practiced on the surface of including people and making space and valuing somebody, not just as a cog in a wheel, right? But saying, you know, "we care what you think." 

And so, Very simple things though, like what hours do you have available to work? What times of days are better for you? Do you have considerate - not to get in your business about - but to your point about caregiving, are there considerations that we should keep in mind? And we built, that's the way that we built our teams based on what was at least very basic quality of life stuff for our staff.

And then we would have team meetings where we checked in beyond, you know, go wash these dishes. But how are you doing today? What's going on in your world? Are the things we need to... but this was so foreign, so unbelievably foreign for the industry. And frankly, the team members that we had, especially early on, like a lot of times it didn't work. A lot of times it was just, there was no, like there was no paradigm that folks had had for being invited into the conversation. And then over time with a particular group of people, like, you know, we got there. But I think one of the places where we fell down was that we did the asking, we did the listening, but then when it came to the implementing, right, it was like, okay, this is more work. Right?

Erin Stampp 
Yeah...

Michelle Bond (16:01.998)
So we're going to do it on this way and this way that we can. Okay, we're going to work the schedule. You know, it's taking me half a day to make a schedule, taking into consideration everyone's preferences and limitations and things like that. But it was valuable. And I think for that little piece of the world, it made a big difference. And so now we're in a place where, gosh, if you even said that that's what you do to take care of your people, it'd be so laughable.

And so, you know, I just want to ask you about that in terms of like the little ways and the big ways that some of these things have been pushing and pulling against each other just over the course of even the time that you've been doing this. 

Erin Stampp 
Yeah, it's... man, I was thinking about so many things. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah, I know. I tried to keep it like this very thin lane of...

Joan Kanner
That would have been a bad survey question, Michelle. It was triple loaded. It was triple loaded - bad survey question. 

Michelle Bond
I don't even know if it was a question. It was just that...

Joan Kanner
I got on junk that. 

Erin Stampp 
No, it's a well, first of all, I just want to say, you know, it's a beautiful thing to hear you describe the intentional effort you put in to do it. And, you know, just based on that particular example you shared, I would encourage you to really look at, the benefits of what came from that. You know? You said that the impact it made in that group, it took time, it took effort, but it made a really significant impact. And I just, I think sometimes when we're trying to push against - by its nature, DEI work is counter-cultural. Inclusion work, equity work is counter-cultural.

And that's why I always try to get people to understand. That's why it feels like you're pushing a boulder uphill all the time, because what we are trying to do is basically antidotes to harmful culture, a power hoarding harmful culture. And you're trying to create a power sharing, you know, we are trying to create a power sharing cultures in which we are less caught up on your credentials and...

Erin Stampp  (18:26.606)
how much smarter you are than me and more like, "well, this is what I bring to the table. What do you bring to the table?" Right? And so, so it's taken us up until today to be however many years old we are just again, see the world as we do. And so when we're trying to push against how we've been socialized to be and engaged in what business means and what it means to be a leader, I mean, we're reshaping all of that. We're asking to kind of turn it on its head in many ways. 

And I remind people that, there aren't a ton of examples for this. We don't have a ton of examples for what even microcosm inclusive cultures really look - truly equitable, power sharing cultures and environments look like. I mean, we probably do. I'm sure we could get some anthropologists to tell us about some amazing cultures that we haven't learned enough about, you know, human cultures over time. Were ran that way, predominantly matriarchal. I know they have existed.

But in the current dominant culture of the United States of America right now, to ask people what they need, listen and take the time to plan around that is totally revolutionary. And I do think that that's one of the issues - is the time it takes initially. And I like to talk to people about thinking about it a little bit like solar panels. You have this investment of time upfront.

As you're listening and implementing and being like, "ooh, that didn't work." You've got to be willing to fail. You've got to be willing to try something that doesn't work and pivot and not just go back to the old way. Like, "well, that didn't work, but let's tweak it," you know? 

And, you know, to have patience with the process of developing it, to understand that it's iterative and that that investment upfront ends up paying for itself over time. That's why I say solar panels, right? Like you gotta pay to get them installed and then you start to over time reap the rewards of that investment in your bills going down and hopefully in feeling good about your carbon footprint, right? It's the same way with...

Erin Stampp (20:42.734)
...trying to run things in a more power sharing, more equitable, equity centered way. Is it is going to take some time. We got to build those muscles.

Erin Stampp (20:59.982)
Retention is an issue. And I don't think that we pay enough attention to how much turnover, disgruntled employees... but I think it's just hard sometimes to do that initial investment upfront. I do think it's worth it. And I think we got to be patient with ourselves because we're trying to create something that we don't have a ton of models for, but it doesn't mean it's not good, right? 

Michelle Bond
For sure. For sure. I'll say on the retention piece, I think in food, too, I think what we hit, which speaks exactly to your point, is that in a lot of cases, up until very recently, the industry just assumed that these are throwaway jobs for a lot of people. And there was not talk - about like revolutionary - you know, retention was a foregone like the lack of retention was a foregone conclusion. 

Joan Kaner
I feel like, our listeners and the people who read the transcript will say, well, yeah, the retention piece is going to make this one hell of a bitch because of people turning around and like redoing these trainings. I think there's other two other pieces, one of which is just having enough time and/or enough competency. Like no one's going to be hiring you, Erin, unfortunately, in a small business that makes candles to work with their three staff because like they're not going to maybe there's like way to get you asynchronistically online, but I can just see that like one of the pushbacks being that and the other pushback being, but I'm the boss, I'm worried about like, I still need to be the person driving the bus. This is my enterprise. So I think there's gonna be a problem with people saying this thinking like, "I don't have the time." And that like, "I want to make sure that I still have final say because shit got to get done. And stuff falls back on me." 

Erin Stampp 
Yeah, I mean, all of those are hard things. And it's interesting, because I just keep kind of thinking about values-based leadership and culture change. You know? And when I'm just thinking about your audience and when you... I don't know, hopefully I will make sense here, but I feel like we've talked about being in a place of life where, you know...

Erin Stampp (23:24.59)
I'm yearning for my life to be congruent with my values. I've worked really hard to live my life that way. And it's really, it can be devastating how hard it is to do that, right? Like I just want to live a values-based life that puts... Even when I say it, I laugh because I'm like, I know I'm going to sound like some people are really like, "okay, next," you know. "I could skip this episode, come back for the next one, because she just said, love is the answer." Y'all remember this? 


But I mean, it's like, I just think over time, even what I think about around intelligence has shifted so much. And that to me, based on my values - and this is different for different people - good leaders are good business owners; are to be contributing to the greater good, right? Like the idea is that you have to make money. We understand that in the society we live in, we have to make money. So I'm not, trust me. I mean, I understand there's lots of parts of my job that I don't love, but I got to do it because I get paid for it and I need to get paid to sustain my family, right? I'm clear about all of that. 

But I think through, why I love the work that I do is it offers us the idea that none of this is inevitable. Right? 

Michelle Bond
Exactly. 

Erin Stampp 
That none of this is inevitable, that we aren't, and like, I think that our dominant culture tells us that there's like, there's this way to do things. And like, if you want to do this, this is how you do it. And in fact, there's lots of other ways to do things, you know? And then we're scared because - do I have the time and will it make the money? You know, so there's just all of these things pushing against it, which is why being in community and having spaces like this is so important because at the end of the day, I'm 46 years old and I want to be doing, I want to have a leader. I want to live my life in a way that's congruent with my values. I want to do work that matters. I want to take care of my family.

Erin Stampp (25:45.55)
And I recognize that how we've always been doing things, is it really working? And I don't think it's working for even the people that think it's working. 

Michelle Bond
Right. Agreed.

Erin Stampp 
I don't know a lot of high level leaders that are walking around, like you ask them how they're doing and they're like "[Heavy sigh]" I'm like, "gosh, you're like the head of the whole department. Like I thought you'd be...." You know, you're in charge, like, and you're more stressed than I. Like, but you know, so just this idea that any of it's working for the majority, I think is a myth. And it's not inevitable that we just stay churning away in our spaces. 

And I think it's a beautiful thing to think about food and the restaurant business as a place that needs massive culture change because, gosh, some of my favorite jobs were working in food industry because you're like a community and you're close. And if I can stay with this group of people and grow and invest in something? Man, I want to do that. So...

I do think that some of our fear is constructed in false... Some of it's true. It takes time to do big change work. It really does. That's why you need to try to build your human capital, let people you can rely on and kind conversing, you know.

Erin Stampp (27:25.262)
I keep thinking about this person that used to... that said, turning your exclamation points into question marks.

So this is, "I don't have time for this" exclamation point. What if we turn that to, "how could I make time for this?" What would it look like? What would have to shift for me to make time to do the schedule in this way? 

Michelle Bond
Right. Right. 

Erin Stampp 
So I mean, it doesn't, it's not, it sounds maybe pretty basic, but I think it starts with being willing to do things differently, at least try. And you don't have to, overhaul the whole way you do everything at one time. You know? 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Erin Stampp 
I mean, it's like you talked about schedule. Okay, we're going to try to do the schedule in a very equitable way around people's availability and limitations. That's the one thing we're going to try to do this year. 

Michelle Bond
Right? Because in the end, I mean, we didn't implement everything that we wanted to. But that's one thing we always did. The sched..., you know, people knew that what was important to them in terms of their time was their time. And that if they had a conflict, there was space to come and get their needs taken care of. Or, you know, 10 other things we wanted to do better, but to your point, it's helpful to, yeah, bird by bird... 

Erin Stampp 
Well, and I would say too, that some of that is that perfectionism. That's a part of dominant culture that is problematic. It's not attainable. So we aren't either doing DEI work or not doing it. There is somewhere in the middle, right? And it can be okay to be a work in progress. That's really how sustainable change happens. So, you know, this idea that, we had 10 things we were gonna do and we only did one of them. Okay, well, work on number two next year. Like, you know what I mean? I think that there's just so much within our dominant culture, particularly for minoritized people, that says that there's a particular way and it has to be done right. And if you don't know how to do it right, you shouldn't even worry about it. And all of that is myth.

Erin Stampp (29:31.822)
It's all myth. That's like one person's, one group of people's idea. You know, the society we're living in wasn't necessarily created for all of us and our perspectives and ideas. But now we have the space to start exploring that and just being open to what that looks like. There's very specific cultures of our, aspects of our culture. This dominant culture that really does try to keep people in its place.

And understanding what some of those characteristics are helps us know how to navigate them. And so I think when I hear you talking, Michelle, about you wanted to do all these things and we only got to, we wanted, but we were able to really get this one down. It's a different way to frame it rather than the nine things. Because the dominant culture wants you to worry about that. 

Michelle Bond
God, preach girl. 

Erin Stampp 
But you did something different and the people that you did it for cared about it. It made a difference.

Joan Kanner (30:41.454)
I will say in food, I think people prefer to have an abusive daddy. I mean, it came up a lot for me. It was bad enough. I worked in academia for 15 years. Before that, I worked in sports. Think on that - with hockey players and baseball players, and all that. And then going into food, as Michelle stated earlier, having things like agendas and being mindful of people's time and like wanting to send an email.

You know, I think like we adjusted a little bit to people's access to those things based on the people that we worked with. But I still feel like when it came to applying different rules and it came to showing that we cared, I feel like the interpretation of that was also that we were weak. I think that there was like not enough grace given to us as women. And again, like I've seen male chefs and also the female chefs who emulate male chefs thinking that's liberation too, which is bullshit. Be shitty, even if these most idiot men. 

Erin Stampp 
Oooh... god...

Joan Kanner
Thank you. Like these exactly. And like, thank you for that. And like these, these folks like these, these chefs would just say like, even like these idiot men would still have like people like, "yes, chef" or like "right away [chef]", like do stuff with people. But we've worked in many, many shared kitchens before to see that. 

Whereas like I've had a conversation with someone who was contracting with us for a very, very big catering event. And I got frustrated by what's going on. I just said, "your pacing is glacial." It's exactly what I told her. And maybe I could have phrased it better, but I was super frustrated. Not only did she quit, but we also had a 45-minute conversation in which she unpacked her feelings. Now, I can see where I could have done better in that moment.

Joan Kanner (32:35.47)
But with Joan saying the pacing was glacial... And she was working with chicken, and you have to be mindful of like room temp. But I would rather have that conversation for 45 minutes and reserve relationships as people. And if she felt empowered to like to quit from that contract job, then I say, "fuck yeah." But I just wish things were less disparate. If a male chef said your pacing is glacial, you would complain to your buddy. But generally you would just fucking roll with it. [Even if the chef would] curse at you or put you in the walk-in and made you cry. 

Erin Stampp
Okay. So this speaks to... I mean, yeah, there's like, as with everything, there's so much there. Because in this culture, in dominant culture, we have been socialized to play our role. 

Michelle Bond
100%. 

Erin Stampp
Right? So it's not like... and so even when you were sharing that, as we tried to come and do things differently, even our staff was a little bit like, "what the hell?" Like, why do you have to be so up in my business? 

Joan Kanner
Yup!

Erin Stampp
You know, like, you don't need to know everything. And so there is something to that, that everyone in the environment, whether you hold power, whether you have minoritized identities, everyone's been socialized. We've all taken in the smog of power and domination.

And so, and we come in to do our, to play our role. And when we don't, it gives people pause. You know, it's so true that, you know, people would probably take that from a male boss and be like, "yeah, he can be a dick sometimes," you know, onto the next thing. But it's like, now you've showed some empathy and compassion. So when you're not, and it's like, no, no, no, this is a both/and here.

We have the ability to... I was thinking about when you were talking just like about being in the kitchen and like a chef and those roles, I was thinking about an exclamation point someone might say like, "somebody's got to be in charge because or else we're never gonna get any shit done!" right? And it's like, yes, we can have roles, like assigned roles, like "you're doing this, you're doing this," but it doesn't...

Erin Stampp (35:00.814)
... have to come at the cost of our own dignity or like value in the situation. And just because, and this is where I think getting older is helping me, not everybody's gonna be on the same page with what you're trying to do. Lots of people are colluding in their own oppression at this point. 

Michelle
Oooh...

Erin Stampp
And what we can do is do our best to try to lead, to communicate, to explain, but everybody's not coming along on the journey. And because we want to be inclusive, because we don't want to lose people, that feels like a fail. But again, we have to think a little bit more about what do wins look like when we're trying to do things differently. And not everybody's ready. 

I mean, I've been a part of a lot of conversations with women that were problematic about women. Some of the worst people I've worked for have been women, right?

Michelle Bond
Mmmm, hmmm. Yeah.

Erin Stampp
You know, we can be... because we've all been, it's that internalized oppression. Right? 

Michelle Bond
Right. Right.

Erin Stampp
You know, and that's why you often see, one of the reasons DEI gets constantly attacked and criticized is that we put people in positions based on their identity, not necessarily, not always based on what they're gonna bring. Or like for example, I've worked in institutions where a person of color has grown up in that institution, right? But because they're a person of color, people are like, "yeah, they're doing..." yeah, but they are solidly holding up the culture we're trying to change. That's where they've had success. Lots of us have to assimilate, have to assimilate to cultures to rise above and we lose our individuality and we lose some of that diverse perspective and it gets more comfortable and we don't want to do it. 


And there are people that are ready to try something different. And that's where we got to find our people. We got to find our people. We got to work with people who are down with trying something new, making a mistake, trying again...

Erin Stampp (37:15.502)
... because I get really frustrated in this work. People are like, "okay, well tell us what to do." And I'm like, "yeah, if I had the magic anti-racism, anti-sexism fairy dust I would have just sprinkled that all across the world a long time ago. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Erin Stampp
I'd be on a beach in a hammock right now. Like, but we don't have that. It takes unlearning. And so much of that is internal. 

Michelle Bond
It's so true.

--- 
Fauxmercial for Cartoon Mallets
Narrator (37:50.926)
And now a woid from our sponsor. This one will really make you t'ink.

[Setting: grocery store]
[sound of items being scanned at checkout]

Tiff (37:50.926)
Hey, Kenzie. Fancy meeting you here. Whoa, dude. You look like shit. 

Kenzie
I haven't slept in days. And you shouldn't use "dude," by the way. It's gendered. 

Tiff
Well, I consider it gender-neutral, but anyway, what's been keeping you up? 

Kenzie
My "Radical Gardeners Bringing Justice through Vermiculture Used Paperback Book Club" compatriots told me my sun-dried tomato pate is under-seasoned.

Tiff
Well, that's their opinion, and opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one. 

Kenzie
Check your anal privilege. 

Tiff
Wait, what? I'm too confused to be offended right now.

Kenzie
All too many infants are born without one. 

Tiff
[almost whispering] There are landmines everywhere with you... 

Kenzie
What? Anyway, through surgery, these brave little ones get anuses! In fact, there are camps that help them learn how to use their brilliant new apertures. It's life-changing. 

Tiff
Actually, a world without pooping would be a world without joy for me. 

Kenzie
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You see? 

Tiff
Wait a minute, I know what's up - you're so woke you need a nap! 

Kenzie
Yes, I am more evolved than you. I mean, it is true. I should police others rather than actually making a difference. 

Tiff
See? You look like shit AND you're so tired your true intentions are exposed. 

Kenzie
Nooooo! I can't have that! 

Narrator
Are you so woke you need a nap? Give us a break while taking one... please.... with our patented cartoon mallet.
It'll swiftly - and safely - send you off to dreamland. 

Tiff
Hey Kenzie, look over there! Someone's about to toss batteries in the trash! 

Kenzie
Whaaaat?!!!

[sound of a cartoon mallet hitting Kenzie on the head]


Tiff (39:48.078)
Goodnight, sweet prince. And by prince I mean, I'm not supporting the institutionalized oppression inherent in any monarchy. Shit.... Looks like I need a nap too.

[sound of a cartoon mallet hitting Tiff on the head]

- End of fauxmercial for cartoon mallets -
--- 

Erin Stampp (40:00.942)
You got to start with yourself. You got to have self-compassion. And then we want to invest in people. We don't want to throw people away. I don't, that's another criticism of the work that, that, you know, DEI people do is that we've created this cancel culture, not people that are really serious about the work. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Erin Stampp
You say a wrong term. I want to sit with you, be in relationship, have a conversation, help you grow. It's if we have to have the conversation 20 times, then maybe we're just not a match. Maybe this organization's in a match for you, right? So I think we do have to recognize that some people are gonna self-select out and that doesn't mean we're failing. 

Michelle Bond
Well said, yeah. 

Joan Kanner
I feel like you were nipping at the heels of restorative justice and we have to tackle that in a different episode in terms of doing that within your business. I think that would be very powerful because I think a lot of people also leave, like me, university life, and other people may leave corporate or other places to think, "I'm gonna start my own business not have to deal with these things." But the systems and gatekeepers and kingmakers still abound.

Erin Stampp
Still are everywhere. Absolutely.

Michelle Bond
I mean, to that point, I mean, that was one of the primary drivers for us beginning our journeys, especially Joan. It's like, you know, create an environment that I have not found in terms of my work life. 

Erin Stampp
Ooo... yes.

Michelle Bond
And I mean, for the most part, you know, we were pretty successful in doing that. But there were... talk about, you know, landscape and culture changes and stuff. There was a time in very recent history when all of a sudden we were on the complete other side of that equation. We were "the man" in every way. I mean, you could have... Jeff Bezos and Michelle Bond? No difference in the eyes of the people that we interacted with. And who you want to say.

Erin Stampp
Dang.

Michelle Bond
You got to do some soul searching and some, I mean, but to your point, some of it totally valid, right? I, completely burnt out, no self-compassion. How am I going to have compassion for anybody else and do anything the way that it needs to be done? But I will say that, you know, being in a place where you are conditioned and in the practice of giving grace.

Michelle Bond (42:21.87)
And then to slowly but surely be receiving none, even in being in a position of power, you have to look at what you're contributing to that being the case in the environment, right? And then who's maybe not on board. But then where we were, right? As a culture, we jumped like 30 years and now I think we've jumped back, but regardless.

Erin Stampp
It's interesting. It's like when we're trying to create a different culture or a different space for people, it doesn't mean that there's never going to be conflict. It doesn't mean that we're not going to disagree. You know? I mean, that's just ridiculous. We're human beings. We're complex. That's why when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, we say "you don't just have diversity." The value of diversity doesn't come until you have equity and inclusion also.

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Erin Stampp
We used to, in one of our trainings, we used to have a slide that says the boss is at the desk and he says, "I want you to hire people that look different from me, but think just like me." Right? That's not the goal. Right. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Erin Stampp
So if we're really, truly... the idea is that we want people with different experiences, different identities, different gifts and talents. Then we create the culture in which we can share what we're thinking and it's safe. It's a supportive place to disagree because it's relational, we already have a foundation of respect, right? And then we can push back on one another and be willing to... "oh, I hadn't thought about it like that." That's the benefit of diversity. If I am an able-bodied person and I'm gonna open a restaurant and I've never thought about people with mobility issues, then I need, that's a blindspot for me, right? 

So I need to be someone to share with me, like, how would... And not everybody wants to enter at the back of the building. That's not always welcoming. So like, do you know what I'm saying? I just think that one of the other elements of dominant culture that gets in the way of change is fear of open conflict. And conflict in and of itself is not bad. It's actually opportunity. Shout out to Baltimore Community Mediation, right?

Michelle Bond (44:44.206)
Yeah. 

Joan Kanner
Yep.

Erin Stampp
Conflict is opportunity. We now understand that we're not on the same page about something. We have an opportunity to talk through it. We can either let that help us grow together or we can let it create division and resentment. And ultimately, you know, if you're the business owner, you want to create a space where you can have this conversation. Some people are down with that and they're getting it - cool. Some people might self-select out. Again, it's not a fail.

It's just, "I'm trying to change culture. I'm trying to create a different space." You're either with or you're not, you know, or you're on a journey and we'll keep going until you decide you're not. 

Michelle Bond
Right. 

Joan Kaner
I mean, there's such a conflict too when it comes to values. When you mentioned spaces for restaurants and other places for people to come work or to be served. Michelle and I can tell you how many buildings we have seen in which even like a little step is problematic. And I care about ADA compliance, not just because it should be what everyone cares about. Because I want to be sure I can feed everybody, which means more dollars, by the way, idiots. 

Erin Stampp
But also, it's also a broader people to market to like... 

Joan Kanner
And to hire. Also, the second thing for me is that in food, it's really reasonable. Be it: slip, trip, fall, whatever. And while it's important to have that rest at home [after a fall at work], you're going to get bored as shit, at least I do. That's my personality. And you're one - you want to, come in. Maybe you can't like, you know, flip all the eggs, but you can still like make sure things are neatened up. You can serve people coffee, you can do something. So just think about - anyone could be temporarily disabled. At any time accidents at home, like accidents at work, and you need to think about that. 

Michelle and I recently went to an event, another podcast was having an event in Philly and there's so many old buildings that had been grandpersoned in where they can have like these steps and whatnot. Even people in the food industry there, I was talking to them [about the lack of ADA compliance], I was like...

Joan Kanner (46:53.454)
"Dude, isn't that fucked?" They're like, "yeah, but you can still wheel across the place across the street because they don't have like a lip." I'm like, are you, how, "why is that enough? How is that okay?" Like why, why is this, this does not serve us. Like what the hell are we doing? So anyway, it brought in some other people you can, that can work for you.

Erin Stampp
I mean, I don't mean, I didn't mean to talk over you. I would just think that that's generally what we see is it's okay until it affects you. And, you know, something we've been thinking about in our work is like people coming to training, but the least present people in our training, and this is not meant to be a call out. It's actually meant to be a call-in is white males. 

Like how can we shift our programming, our messaging? Because diversity, equity, inclusion work, must have everyone, including people with most access to power, both capital and - 

Michelle Bond
Especially. 

Erin Stampp
Especially, right? And so - Yeah, it's just, yeah, I don't know, a universal design, caring about what you don't know. I believe you can teach it to people. It doesn't, not everybody's born with it naturally, but just a... imagine, like perspective taking is a huge skill for leaders. Like, okay, that sounds like, you know, someone says, "well, you could just go across the street and then go over here and then around this way." And it's like, have you ever? 

Michelle Bond
Do you want to do that? Yeah. 

Erin Stampp
That's something you want to do, especially when you're hungry and you got a limited lunch hour. You don't make sense. And, but if your mom had that all of a sudden, this would be a problem. You don't... 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. Yeah. 

Erin Stampp (48:47.63)
If your partner had needed to do that, it would be a problem for you. But until it, unfortunately for many people, until it affects them personally, they don't believe it's true. I always like to, you know, you know this - power or privileges when you think something isn't a problem because it is a problem for you. And, you know, unfortunately in our dominant culture, there's lots and lots of privilege that's creating a lot of people that have blind spots. I said it, I said the P-word.

Michelle Bond
Well, we made it this far. 

Joan Kanner
But there's also, in addition to people saying "it's not my problem," "it's not a big deal." I feel like when it comes to people's interactions with some folks, like I mentioned, like Schmucko, I can mention other people when it comes to raising capital and investment. So, as a queer female business owner, I could even just talk about how people treat me generally. And if I've been introduced to that person from somebody else, I've gone back and been like, "this person is an ass," "this person, you know, this person treated me with disrespect" and oftentimes, or "this person bullied" or whatever. The person who introduced me will say, "they're not like that with me." You know? I think that's another, that's a different like level to what you said, is that like, "if it's not happening to me, it's just not happening. It must not be, must not be valid." "I don't need to hear it." "This is like my reality. I don't need you to try to like push against it. And I'm, I'm off and running." 

Erin Stampp
100%.

You know, you know about microaggressions. That's, they happen all the time. We like to talk about microaffirmations and microresistances... 

Michelle Bond
Hmmm...

Erin Stampp
... as antidotes to microaggressions. And one of them, I tell people all the time, you can be someone who fosters inclusion starting in the next moment. If when someone who has a different experience, a different identity than you shares something about their experience, you can number one, believe them.

You can thank them. And you can validate like, "wow, that must be really hard. I would feel really angry if that happened to me. It would be difficult to have to take my mom around to the place where there's less of a lib." You know what I mean? Like just, we can validate one another. And these are these small things in which we meet the microaggressions and these dominant cultural...

Erin Stampp (51:11.406)
... you know, slaps in the face, proverbial slaps in the face, if you will, with like, "huh, can I offer a different perspective?" "Huh? Just because that didn't happen for you, this was my experience," right? You don't even have to know or be like, "that did happen to me." You just say, "wow, that must be really hard." Because in fact, it's actually another microaggression. When someone says "I had this experience" and you're like, "well, I think you're being too sensitive" or...
"that's not right." 

Michelle Bond
Of course it is. 

Erin Stampp
"Yeah. Because I just told you what happened to me." So either you think you know better than me or you're not listening, but like, you know, microaffirmation says, "wow, that sucks. If I was there, what could I have done to support you?" 

Michelle Bond
And that's so, my God, I'm going to send us on a whole other tangent. So I was just going to, that's just stems from like this, just insecurity that we are all bred to have, right? We don't start with it, but it comes in early. And then even being able to say, "gosh, I'm really sorry that you went", like "I could imagine," or "if I was in your shoes, that would feel like..." Just to, what does that give up, right? But we are so, I mean, we've all done it, right? Like we feel like that is somehow bearing us exposed to being what, human? Like, you know? 

Erin Stampp
Well, that's why it's scary, Michelle. Is because, at the end of the day, what we're all fighting against is dehumanization. Like from the minute we're born, we know who we are. And it's our journey ultimately in life, in my experience, is to get back to ourselves from what our culture tells us we're supposed to be. You know, I love when I heard somebody say, "stop shoulding on yourself." You know?

Michelle Bond
Shoulding? Yeah. 

Erin Stampp
Yeah, yeah. Like this idea that like, so I was born with dignity and value, and my perspective is important. And we need to surround ourselves with people that that affirm that for us. Because in order to navigate and do countercultural work, we have to have the spaces where we do feel validated and can take off the armor and be ourselves 100.

Erin Stampp (53:39.022)
So that on the next day when we have to possibly use a micro resistance technique or something, we're in a better spot. 

Michelle Bond
Thank you for giving us so much of your time. I know it is a very precious commodity. But I'm curious, given all of this amazing, these insights that you've given us and the things that you're clearly constantly thinking about.

We love to ask our guests about this concept of proofing, which can mean many things for many people - whether that's of a concept or, you know, versions of something before it's ready in the term, in the sense of like graphic art, graphic artists and things like that. For us, it's very much been just this space of like, trying to manage these equal parts, diligence and patience. And I stole that from Michelle Obama, I can't take credit, but I love it. 

Erin Stampp
The Michelles, they're so smart.

Michelle Bond
And there you go. Two L's, baby. But no, so I'm just, what are you proofing on? 

Erin Stampp
You know, it's, there's like so much.

But I think right now where I've been really playing around, you know, having... Thank you for the kind things that you said about my career at the beginning. It has been something that's, you know, there weren't official DEI roles when I started, and they kind of... I've watched the development of this career path over time and it's been really, really rewarding. And I have realized that in any passion we have...

Erin Stampp (55:27.054)
... as we start to recognize that we're a part of these systems, this dominant culture that I keep talking about. When you start to see it, you start to see all the ways in which we've dehumanized ourselves to try to fit into what society needs, to try to be a good mom and a good friend and a good worker. 

And along the way, I've sort of just realized it's been about a decade now. But in the last year, thinking a lot more about self-compassion and like, what does that actually really mean? We overuse words, right? We hear "DEI" and it starts to lose meaning. We say "peace and love" and it's like, those are just words you say. No, they're like the foundations of life. You know? And so "compassion" or "self-care," you know, we hear those terms a lot. 

It's almost like "self-care." We kind of let... dominant culture has us laugh at that. Like where good leaders tell people to take care of themselves and five minutes later, send an email that's like, "I need this in two hours." Right? And so like the messages are mixed. So I've been really thinking a lot about what does it mean to be, have a regular self-compassion practice? And coming back to this age-old wisdom of you can't love others until you love yourself. 

Michelle Bond
Yeah. 

Erin Stampp
And how I heard that all growing up and it really didn't mean anything to me. I didn't know what that meant in practice.

Michelle Bond
Mmmm, hmmm.

Erin Stampp
And I'll give you an example. I had a training this morning. and I sprained my knee, a ligament in my knee earlier this week. So I've been working from home. Stuff's a little chaotic because I'm not as mobile. I was worrying about the session because I felt like I hadn't done enough prep or whatever. 


When I first rolled up, I was not, was not in the best head space. I was distracted and I was worried and thank goodness I had a co-facilitator and we had him leading off. And I found myself - we build in a mindfulness practice in a lot of our education where we're actually giving people two minutes of, you know, lead mindfulness. And I realized in there, the idea is to check in, how am I right now? Asked myself a few times throughout - how am I?

Erin Stampp(57:56.526)
Oh crap, I have not drank any water today. I haven't gone to the bathroom. I haven't eaten. Like how am I going to deliver this really outstanding training that I know I am absolutely capable of delivering if I haven't taken care of myself? 

Michelle Bond
In the most basic of ways. 

Erin Stampp
In the most basic of ways. It's like, I'm just thinking about how - while life is very complex, it's also very, very simple.

We gotta eat some fruits and vegetables. We gotta move our bodies. We gotta get some sleep. We gotta be around people that fill us up. We gotta take time to love on ourselves. And when we do those things, everything else becomes so much easier. Unfortunately, it's counter-cultural. The dehumanizing culture, we live in says "take care of everybody else first." So this idea that it's a revolutionary act to take care of yourself.

And that once you recognize that, it's a journey to figure out "what does that even mean?"

That's what I've been, I'm proofing self-care practice. It's just reframing this idea that how we think and how things go is not inevitable. We have the ability to influence and shift it and the best practice starts with ourselves.

When you get up in the morning, what's the first thing you say to yourself? And is it kind?

Joan Kanner (59:24.718)
I say, "what up big sexy?" 

Erin Stampp
That's, okay... That's what we're talking about. 

Michelle Bond
Talk about experts. We have been graced for far, far many moments here. And so we'll definitely, have to have you back and have lots of bonus content for folks as this episode gets put together. Erin, Erin Stampp, thank you so much for your time and your wonderful spirit. 

Joan Kanner
Ah, thank you.

Michelle Bond
It has been, it's going to boost me through my meeting with a loan officer and...

Erin Stampp
All right...
"You sound like an asshole, could you say more about that?" No, I'm just kidding...

Michelle Bond (01:00:23.214)
You've been listening to Proofing Stage. Our theme song, "Bagels for the Kraken," was written and performed by Thorn Haze. Additional music from Pixabay. 

If you're looking for a transcript, show notes, disclaimers, and additional credits, they can be found on our website, proofingstage dot com. Want to join the conversation? Email us at proofingstagepod at gmail dot com. You can also find us on Instagram, threads, and TikTok at proofingstage. Visit our Patreon page to support the show and get even more great content. 

Michelle Bond
I'm your host, Michelle Bond. 

Joan Kanner
And I am also your host, Joan Kanner. Thanks for listening.