Permission to Kick Ass

Changing careers while changing countries with Tania Yeo

July 17, 2024 • Angie Colee • Episode 178

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Today I'm joined by the amazing Tania Yeo, a teacher turned copywriter who's living her best life in Tbilisi, Georgia. We're exploring how exactly she changed fields (and countries) and found her footing in a completely different industry. If you're considering a career change or just need a dose of inspiration, you don't want to miss this one!

Random Angie note: I seriously considered titling this one "Copywriters who travel with cats." I figured it deserved an honorable mention :) 

Can't-miss moments:

  • When you realize you don't want to be a nomad AFTER you've already moved: how Tania pivoted (and the surprising way it applies to decisions you make in your business)...

  • Stalling by studying: is it a lack of skills holding you back, or fear? Check out the simple, straight-shooting piece of advice that changed Tania's entire career trajectory (it can work for you too, if you're brave)...

  • "This is not a Sarah McLachlan commercial!" Tania and I get off on a hilarious tangent about the reality (and interesting advantages) of traveling with cats... 

  • How do you know when you're qualified enough? Tania and I rant about focusing on all the wrong things (and what to do instead of racking up the right amount of "time on the job")...

  • Trying to get on the radar of a bigwig or big name in your space? Check out my and Tania's advice on the right AND wrong ways to get a guru's attention... 

Tania's bio:

I'm a former Art and Literature teacher from Singapore who's now a financial copywriter currently based in Tbilisi. I'm passionate about helping transitioning teachers from all over the world become copywriters - you can hear all about it on my podcast, Classroom to Copy. In my free time, I make art, obsessively try to recreate Southeast Asian food at home, hike, and soak up the beautiful culture and history of Georgia.

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Angie Colee:

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners, from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs helming nine-figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, angie Coley, and let's get to it. And welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my friend, tanya Yo say hi.

Tania Yeo:

Hi everyone, it's really nice to be here.

Angie Colee:

Awesome. Well, tell us a little bit about what you do.

Tania Yeo:

So I'm from Singapore, but I live in Tbilisi, georgia. I thought I was going to be a digital nomad, but then those dreams were dashed very quickly and just scrambled for a new plan for things to do with my life. I became a copywriter and now I write financial copy for Stansberry Research. And now I write financial copy for Stansberry Research, and, on the side, I also like to help teachers learn more about, you know, breaking into copywriting and leveraging their existing skills and talents in this new career, which is why I also have a podcast of my own where I've interviewed teachers who have gone on this journey. That's awesome.

Angie Colee:

Okay, so you said something that I can't help but dig into. You were going to be a digital nomad, and those dreams were dashed. Are you open to talking about that a little bit more?

Tania Yeo:

Yeah, of course it's really funny. So I moved. I left Singapore after my teaching contract ended in 2021. And this was before like there was that Omicron surge. So it was actually pretty difficult to get off the country and to find a place that I, like both my partner and I, could be in. We were going to go to Thailand. That's actually, you know, one of my favorite countries in the world.

Tania Yeo:

I start learning Thai. I could speak Thai for a while, but the Thai government wouldn't get their shit together. They were like flip-flopping on all the rules. So we were like, hey, what about this place in the middle of nowhere in Eastern Europe called Georgia? And we were like, yeah, sure, why not? And it's a thing.

Tania Yeo:

I brought my cat along, so that already makes it kind of difficult to hop from one country to another. Although, like for all of the stress that went into preparing my cat for customs, like not a single person looked at my binder of, like, his vaccinations and his certs. No one cared that I was carrying a cat. Like they were they. You know, they were just trying to keep the line moving. Yeah, so he's not. He's he's 14 this year. He's pretty old, and when we got here he started getting asthma because he didn't used to live indoors. And then we're living in an apartment. Plus, when we got here it was still locked down, so we're locked down for a few months. That's actually where when I spent all that time studying copywriting.

Tania Yeo:

But yeah, as time went by, I realized like I wanted to be a digital nomad because I was so unhappy as a teacher and I mean, singapore will always be my home country, with lots of like dear friends there, but there's just a lot of things about it. It's not conducive to a queer person like me, a person who, you know, just like lot of, uh, just a lot of things that Singapore wants its people to be. That I cannot be so. But the moment I left, you know that that desire to want to travel the world and keep moving from place to place, that actually that went away, like I didn't mind staying put in a very beautiful country with very beautiful people, wonderful people I've met here, and being with my cat getting better at my craft, getting better at copywriting. So yeah, I don't. So now I joke that I'm a digital stay put because I'm not leaving for any amount. I'm probably not leaving anytime soon. Leaving for any amount Like I'm probably not leaving anytime soon.

Angie Colee:

That's so great, well, and that like there's a couple of different things that I took away from that One. Like I've got a lot of questions recently about being a digital nomad. I had a video series for Huffington Post go like a little bit viral, and those were the top two questions that people like what do you do for work, how do you manage the logistics of travel, travel and what do you do with your cat? And so that's funny. You're literally the only person that I've spoken to that knows what it means to like move around with a cat, although I haven't had to cross borders with her yet, and now I have two, so that's going to be an issue, but you know, whatever, um, now I have two also yeah, they tend to multiply.

Tania Yeo:

Adopted a Georgian cat here, who, who, who jumped up at us in the middle of a forest and we just we had to bring her home. So yeah, it's going to be. If we want to move around, it has to. We have to actually commit to a new location. We can't just like, oh, let's try another part of Europe, yeah of Europe, yeah, yeah.

Angie Colee:

The universal cat distribution system at work. Right, it's so funny, like one of the people that latched on to me was like I really wish you would have created a more stable environment for your cat while you were traveling. And I was like, uh, you are also going to yell at me for giving up my cat to travel, so, like, there's no winning with people like you. I didn't say that to this person. I basically said some people travel with cats and I happen to be one of them. Like, I do everything in my power to make her comfortable and she adjusts and, uh, you know, hey guys, we're going off on a tangent on traveling with cats, but you already know this. Um, well, and I think, like the other thing that's interesting to me is that, like in business and in life, we put a lot of pressure on these decisions to be the decision Right, and so I can foresee an instance where it's like I'm going to be a digital nomad. I need to get out.

Angie Colee:

I really loved and want to celebrate and highlight the fact that you said I got here and realized I like this place, I think I'll stay put, and I've talked to a lot of people that are like I could never be a digital nomad because I just can't handle life on the road, totally cool. Then there are a lot of people that kind of overthink it, worry about it. I'm definitely one of those people, so there's no judgment here. But you can actually have one thing in mind get to the first stop and be like that's it. Plans can change, you can. You can become and redefine yourself as a digital state, but instead of a digital nomad. I love that.

Tania Yeo:

Yeah, because people ask like, which country are you going to next? I realized I'm never going, not at least for a while. We actually start looking at our next place here. We're just looking for the next place, maybe somewhere a bit bigger. I used to have a punching bag back in Singapore. I miss having stuff like that. So yeah, we'll, we'll see.

Angie Colee:

I'm totally open is there a big like or is there a connected nomad or expat community there of people that you can talk to or have you like?

Tania Yeo:

made local friends there is, and we have met with a few. Um, funny thing is we we literally like threw a stone in the middle of nowhere and just ended up in the neighborhood that we've completely fell in love with. It's. It's very uh, it's very convenient. But there's also, like this is an actual forest park. The government here cleared the land around it to build the town, but the forest stayed as it was, so it's not like a manicured park. You walk into it, you feel like you're in the woods and it's just a few steps away from where I live. So it's been really hard for us to move closer to a city where the expats are. But yeah, we do events.

Angie Colee:

It takes like 45 hours to get 45 minutes to get to town, which can feel like 45 hours sometimes. So yeah, I'm telling you.

Tania Yeo:

My socialization here is mostly through when I go to a park and my cat. So, my sorry, the cat is back in this conversation. No apologies necessary, necessary cat time, he's the conversation piece, like he, he's the icebreaker, like I've had the most adorable, like older, like georgian grandpas and grandmas just come up to me and try to speak to me in russian and bond over cats oh, that's lovely and it's funny that that you said you know people were saying shit about you bringing Stella up and about because, like you, cats have different preferences.

Tania Yeo:

My cat loves to go adventuring in the woods more than his actual, like the cat who came from the woods, the other cat that we adopted she's afraid of the woods, but he is from you, know the city, and he's like I'm gonna show you the way in this forest and he'll lead us to this course. So, yeah, that's, that's my. You know my strange little life that I've created here in tibisi.

Angie Colee:

I think that's awesome. Well, yeah, and like, clearly, the people that have very strong opinions about cats who travel haven't seen all the videos of like cats that sit in bicycle baskets and go on hikes and live on sailboats, right, like. Just like humans, pets can adapt, and I would much rather take her with me and find a way to help her adapt, her and her brother Oliver, now, um, then give them up for adoption. This is not a Sarah McLaughlin commercial, I promise guys. Uh, it just it's so very rare that I get to talk to somebody else that travels and has a cat and, like, understands the logistics of managing that and the weirdness of like people and their opinions about having your cat out in a public space, because Stella walks on a leash too and I have

Angie Colee:

one and um, I've been out in like rest areas on long driving days and given her a chance to like stretch her legs and walk and and eat grass, which she freaking loves. And this is this makes me laugh every single time. I'm sorry if this is you, but I love fucking with people who go. Is that a cat? No, it's a fish. Of course it's a cat. You just used your eyes to ascertain it was a cat and then you asked me the obvious what? How do you expect me to answer this? My friends, it is a cat on a leash. That happens.

Angie Colee:

So you started as a teacher and then you moved into this field of copywriting. I've talked on this show before about what copywriting is, but if you are new to this, it's basically like marketing writing, sales focused writing. Right, it's a specialty, it's a sub niche of being a writer. Right, you're not going to see our novels on the shelves, but you're probably going to see our commercials or our emails or things like that. What turned you on to this from teaching? That seems like such a left turn Failure.

Tania Yeo:

Failure turned me on to this Because, well, failure and pigeonholing myself, which you know now that I've interviewed so many teachers for my podcast one thing that a lot of us have in common I'm not saying it's like everyone's experience it's that we don't know what we can do outside of teaching. We don't realize that teaching is a bunch of discrete skills that actually apply across so many different fields. So we all, a lot of us, start off in teaching adjacent careers. So for me, I was like, well, what can I do as a digital nomad? You know, and I remember I actually had a tab open on my computer for many months after I left teaching that I never I didn't want to read. It was like top 20 jobs for digital nomads and I didn't want to read that because I I was afraid like number one, um, I'm not gonna see anything I like. And number two, uh, they're not gonna pay. Well, yeah, so I actually I didn't. I I was terrified of what was gonna happen next for me and you know something that and I was juggling multiple life transitions right, leaving the, leaving the country, figuring out what's next. It was only when I got to Tbilisi I had that peace and quiet. I was like, okay, so what's really next? Then I finally read the article and they were like, oh, you can tutor English online for like 20 bucks an hour, yeah. So I was like, okay, I'll do that. That's another thing.

Tania Yeo:

Like, after leaving teaching, a lot of teachers feel like they have to recertify themselves and and gather more paper qualifications. So I did that. I got my teaching English as a foreign language cert, even though English is like my, my first language my whole life. Like I still felt like I had to prove myself. Yeah, anyway, the whole. When, when I was finally ready to start the whole thing, I think there was some kind of regulation coming out of China and that was like the biggest market at the time. Those were the clients who were paying $20 an hour to hire you to teach your kids English. There was some new regulation where they banned foreign tutors.

Tania Yeo:

Yeah, so, when I started looking around I was like, oh my god, the paper I was getting lower and lower and not at all what I expected. And I remember copywriting was the other thing on that list and I was like, well, I don't know what that is, but it sounds intriguing. I don't know why it's called copy writing, like what? What's the difference between that and writing? Then I fell down that rabbit hole so it was actually, ironically, my backup plan, um, but I'm so glad that you know. That's why I turned to instead and.

Tania Yeo:

I did. Um, yeah, I talked to so many other teachers now and they all have much more well-planned transitions and I know mine is like super chaotic and that's just.

Angie Colee:

I embraced that for the journey that it was no-transcript all of these things at the same time, right, some of these things you just have to throw yourself into and trust yourself to figure out. But I love the fact that you mentioned okay, so you knew the thing was digital nomadism, that you needed to leave and find another place to be, and I just thought it was so fascinating that you're like. I had the article open but I wouldn't read it because I was afraid of what I would see and that just oh, that hit me right in the gut. It was like how many of us have made a decision and gone? Okay, I know I have the ability to find out more over here, but I'm scared of what I'm going to see, so I'm just going to. I'm going to avoid that and do other things for now.

Tania Yeo:

Yeah, yeah, I don't regret any of that. Those were. You know, I was definitely burnt out after I left teaching and I spent those months so I trained as an artist and I was an art teacher and literature teacher. So I just spent those months like drawing nonstop and finally making art. That was for me, not for like a national exam, not to teach kids, but like make art for me. So you know, even though I was definitely there was like not to be dramatic, but it was a lot of turmoil at the time. But now I look back and it's like, yeah, tanya had to do that, you know, know, to get to the next stage.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, that's what you know. I I found that interesting Cause I was looking, I I sent out a questionnaire, guys, for everybody that books a spot on the show, um, and it's mostly to give guests peace of mind, cause if they don't know what they're going to talk about, it tends to be a little bit of like anxious back and forth messaging Like, oh my gosh, how do I prepare for this? And I don't ask all of the questions. Sometimes I do when I get a super interesting answer, but I try to keep it to. We're just having it.

Angie Colee:

It's you and me having a discussion. We met at a bar and I want to know more about you. So now you're getting to see a little bit of the background for everybody that's listening. One of the questions that I ask is if you had advice to a younger you, what would it be? And I think you're the only person that I can remember saying I don't have advice. I think the way that everything turned out is what was needed to get me here with the level of understanding I have. I share that philosophy with you. Like, I think the only thing I would say to a younger me is trust yourself. But, like every, I do believe that everything happens, because there was some sort of lesson that I needed to learn to be able to move on to the next. And here we are.

Tania Yeo:

And even if I had given my younger self advice, that person wouldn't have listened, because that person is super stubborn and is still stubborn.

Angie Colee:

That ain't that the damn truth. I am fond of being that older jerk now these days when I talk to people in their teens and their 20s. Oh God, man, I remember when I knew everything. That was such a great time. Talk to me a little bit about the transition, then. So you discover copywriting. You throw yourself into that. What was that process like?

Tania Yeo:

Yeah. So I think I remember thinking like, yeah, ok, the whole process up to this point was kind of chaotic and I'm never trusting random articles on the internet again. I need to talk to real people, you know. So, uh, there was that. And there was also, I remember, um, feeling really scared because, uh, my parents they're older and Omicron was going about everywhere, not just and I was like I need to make sure, like financially, I can take care of them and get my shit together. So I, fortunately at the time there were some like well-paying tutoring jobs, but from Singapore. So I managed to get myself connected, get myself connected with that as a like a financial cushion, and I was like, okay, I'll do that, for I think it was like maybe 10 hours a week, I'll do that and all my all the other times like, okay, let's figure out what copywriting is, um, you know.

Tania Yeo:

So I, I, I think the first community I joined like what's? Um? I think the first community I joined was this online Discord run by now my friend I just met him in Nashville Sean McIntyre, and a few other people. So it was very helpful, even if I didn't interact with him as much. He's the first teacher turned copywriter I ever met. It was the first time I was like it was this boost of confidence, like, oh, teachers can do this pretty. Cause he was also a financial copywriter and I actually just I spent a lot of time lurking and just like reading what he wrote, and then it only when I felt like I I had a question that he hadn't answered already, cause I'm like most of the time when I see these successful people online, I'm amazed that they're even around to answer our questions.

Tania Yeo:

Um, which is why I was so grateful when I, you know, I got my promotion sorry, jumping ahead got my promotion at Cardone, uh, and I messaged you about what it takes to be a copy chief. I was so grateful, you know, you took the time to answer. Um, yeah, that's awesome.

Tania Yeo:

Okay, yeah, like no one online owes us these things right, and I'm always grateful for all these people I'm I meet along the way, where they share their advice generously. Yeah, so I I talked to them. Um, I remember I was, and his advice was read one piece of copy a day, write one piece of copy a day and come up with one idea a day. And I did that for three months until I couldn't tell if what I was doing was any good and I was like, okay, I think I need to, you know, talk to more people, maybe get eyes on on my copy. And that's how I found CopyChief. And then I think that just kind of accelerated everything from there.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, that's the power of having good feedback and good support, and I think it's a big kind of societal struggle too. It's hard to know how to get feedback, how to give feedback, and that's one thing I've ranted about with the folks that I've coached in the past. Right, we can't get feedback from people who don't have a clue what the hell they're talking about and we see people around that I know. I see newer entrepreneurs doing that every damn day of the week. I have a business idea, mom. What do you think? Mom has been an employee for the last 40 years. Mom has strong opinions based on being an employee, not a business owner.

Angie Colee:

So you've got to first of all develop a filter for who you need feedback from. Ideally, it should be somebody who has done successfully the thing that you are trying to do, so that they can give you the appropriate feedback. Then you know, even then you're still going to get people who are so uncomfortable with giving feedback that they might give you something that is totally not useful. You have to develop your discernment and go okay, well, I'm glad I asked that person for help, but I'm not going to be able to use this. That's cool. Thank them for that and move on to the next thing.

Angie Colee:

Right, because not everybody gives kind of quick advice. And I try to come at that with a place of compassion. I know this seems a little bit rambly, but like if I ask somebody for feedback and they give you all like a just kind of do this, I know that that person hasn't thought critically about this. Maybe they haven't had time to organize that process. They don't know how to communicate the thing that they do. They're anxious about advising me wrong, so they're kind of keeping it at a high level on purpose.

Angie Colee:

I always assume positive intent, not that they're trying to withhold information or screw me over or anything like that, and a lot of folks are just they're scared to give feedback. And this is part of the process. Especially if you're going to start a creative service business, feedback is the name of the game. If you are doing services for other people, the clients are going to have feedback. The people on their team are going to have feedback. You're going to have to give feedback internally to your team. It's just part of the process. So the earlier that you can subject your work to feedback from people who have the expertise and the caring and concern to help you get better, the faster you're going to accelerate that learning curve. There's my feedback rant for you.

Tania Yeo:

Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree Cause, um, you know, when I was in the early stages of of talking to other people, a lot of people were saying that you don't need to spend a dime to become a copywriter, which okay. Now that I'm on like two years on the other side, like that makes no sense to me. So you think that you, you are worthy. You want someone to pay you for your copywriting services, but you know to learn this from someone, especially an actual human being on the internet, like their time is not worth compensation. That made no sense to me.

Angie Colee:

Yes, Well, and also there's this ridiculous idea that again, so you're a creative person and also you're having to do creative work for money for someone else, that requires you to people you have to be a good peopleer.

Angie Colee:

So if you're already going into this going, I'm not going to hire people to help me get good at this. Like, what kind of mindset are you bringing to your relationships with people that are paying you money? And I, you know, to a certain extent I agree with people that you don't necessarily have to pay a dime, but I need to add that caveat necessarily, Right. And then I need to add the appropriate context and say you don't have to pay to get good at copy If you are being paid ie, you got yourself a copy job where training is part of the arrangements, right? You can't just throw out half-baked, half-assed advice like that you don't have to pay somebody to get good at copy. You either need to be paid to get good at copy or you need to pay someone to get good at copy. This shit doesn't happen in a vacuum. End rant.

Tania Yeo:

Yeah, yeah, because, if I, okay. So I joined CopyChief, I knew I was going to do financial copywriting and I paid our friend, joshua Lee Henry to look over the stuff I was going to submit. For you know the program that we have in CopyChief World of Financial Copywriting and you know there's there was this opportunity to get a gig with his company. So I paid him to look over my copy.

Tania Yeo:

If I hadn't done that I would have just gone on for months and months just writing practice copy. But on that call he was like you need to get hired, stop practicing, start connecting with people, start applying to jobs. And if I, without that kind of feedback, I would have been in the dark. Was my copy perfect? No, like he had line edits, you know he had very helpful comments, but overall he's like you're ready, everything else you can learn on the job. I could have wasted it, cause this was in April of like the April after I quit teaching. I could have got just gone on and on in the dark for the rest of that year, not knowing when I'm ready to start applying to work. Yeah, so that was a very powerful moment for me and I want to celebrate you for that, because that could have been a moment where the cycle repeated itself.

Angie Colee:

Right, I won't look at that article for fear of what I see. I won't ask somebody for feedback for fear of what I hear. I won't put myself out there for that role or for that job because I'm afraid I'm not good enough. At some point you've got to decide. Well, I hear you brain. I know that we're scared to do this thing and that you're just trying to protect me. I got to go see what I'm made of. I got to see what I need to do to be ready for this opportunity, and that's not going to happen as long as I sit here spiraling out by myself.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, yeah. I think that tied back to what you said. You said I'm going to jump ahead, and I reached out to you when I got hired. I'd love to fast forward into that experience. So, like you, you got a job at a good place. Actually, you got a couple of gigs at different places and in one instance, you did such great work and you accelerated so fast that you found yourself being offered a promotion to basically run the team, and I remember that when you reached out to me that there were a lot of fears around that too, because, like, who am I to run this team? I don't have nearly the experience I've got. These other people that I work with that do have a lot more experience. Um, and you want to tell me a little bit more about like your side of that and what made you reach out to me yeah, so it's really funny.

Tania Yeo:

Um, I was. I started out at this company as a junior copywriter. You once, uh, released a training on how to be a good copy chief meaning someone who you know chiefs the team's copy and then looks over a copy of other copywriters. So I just set up a call with management and I was like hey, so this was what was discussed previously. Here's actually put together kind of a pitch deck for myself. Here's everything I've done for the company.

Tania Yeo:

It was one of the most terrifying but also empowering things I've ever done. Like, wow, in just like six months I've been here, here's all the revenue I've generated for you. Here are all the ideas I have for your business and here's where I think you know I can really make an impact as a senior copywriter. And then a few weeks later the copy chief just said in complete passing like it was just a one on one call he was like OK, so we got to get this stuff done, this stuff done, and also I think I'm going to promote you to assistant copy chief so you can help me out with like overseeing all of these projects. We got to get lots of projects out in this month and I was like wait, hold up, what do you say? I was just talking to you about being a senior copywriter and you're talking about something else entirely. Yeah.

Angie Colee:

Casually threw that out. Casually threw that out. Thank you.

Tania Yeo:

I want you to help. You know you're a very organized person, you're. You know you. You're a very organized person. You understand this business very well. I really would like to have you in my corner as we roll out all of the new projects that I have in mind. And I was just like I didn't say anything but my face was probably like you're insane and I was like, okay, I'll get back to you. I think maybe I rewatched your training on how to be a good copy chief.

Tania Yeo:

I really loved it because you know you emphasize all these other skills that really have nothing to do with someone's copywriting prowess. It's a lot of other things too. It's like people skills from that I have from being a teacher, and then there's um, that organizational skills and all that. But I was still, you know, and I remember yeah, this was after we this is the first time we met right in St Pete and I remember I was sharing an idea for this whole classroom to copy thing and I was like who am I to help teachers? And you're like, who says experience has to be a factor in any of this, or something like that? You're like what does the number of years have to do with your ability to help the people you want to help, and it was in the same vein that I reached out to you, cause I was like Angie would understand. Yeah, so that was what's going through my head at the time.

Angie Colee:

That's fascinating and I'm glad that you brought that up, cause I want to unpack that a little bit too. Like, I was even in a copywriting group and, and you know, by the way, I think you did a great job of of explaining copy chief and all of this stuff is relevant. You know, I know that this is a show for entrepreneurs, but I also see the entrepreneurial journey as one of finding your path forward, and sometimes that means going through employment. Sometimes that means having a couple of you know, long-term retainer clients. The journey looks like something different for everybody, right, um, and I really want to eliminate the shame that comes with. Okay, I'm working a job. That means I'm not an entrepreneur. I disagree with every fiber of my being. Um, you can still be working on figuring out what your own thing. Like you work, as did you. I don't I don't know if I even checked Did you get that promotion to assistant copy chief? Yeah, I did, yes, so you're working as an assistant copy chief. You've got all of these gigs going, you're, you're doing your podcast. I see that as super entrepreneurial, so I just wanted to get that out of the way for anybody that might be curious.

Angie Colee:

Um, and then, like I was in a conversation in this copywriting community where somebody said how many years do you have to have for a senior? And I was like I mean, generally speaking, you want to have probably more than five, but it doesn't really matter what the years are, so long as you have the experience, the trial by fire and the understanding that it takes. Some people are able to do that very fast in a couple of months. Some folks like me are a little bit more stubborn and they have to learn the same things by bashing their heads against the wall over and over and over again before they figure out their way forward. It's a guideline Stop holding yourself back artificially because you think you're not ready, because you haven't done a certain number of years. The years are bullshit. The experience matters and that's why you know.

Angie Colee:

When we had our conversation, I do distinctly remember saying things like there are other people on the team that are more senior, right, and that role was not offered to them. My instinct is to assume that that there was a reason and there was a thought process and there was a rationale behind that, because, just like I assume positive intent with people who may or may not meet my expectations or my requests. I also assume that people have thought about the decision that they're going to make. Sometimes that's not accurate, but most of the time, yes, people have thought about something before they make an offer. So me coming to them and being like, are you sure about this Is a little bit of a. Yes, I'm sure I have thought about this. I don't know where I was going with that rant other than, yeah, the number of years versus the actual qualifications and the real trial by fire and actually having done the work. To me, no, yeah, experience counts.

Tania Yeo:

Experience and initiative. I just just. I think one of my strengths is just being able to see the opportunity in every moment to offer more value, and it's once you open your eyes to that, it's everywhere. You know ways to be even more useful to your client, to your business. Um to over deliver and the willingness to do that. I think that can. That counts a lot more than a lot of people realize.

Angie Colee:

And it's so fun. I was talking to somebody yesterday about this, about how it's so easy to kind of get wrapped up in the societal nonsense of what providing value looks like, what entrepreneurship looks like, that you missed the forest for the trees, right. Somebody was asking me how do you get really close to a guru? And I said, first of all, no shame in that game. I had to ask once too, because I'm over here going, I'm doing everything in my power to get this person's attention. How do I get this person's attention?

Angie Colee:

There are things that you can do of value that are incredibly valuable for people that you think might not ever even see you so like. For instance, somebody asked me when I used to work for Jeff Walker how do I get Jeff's attention? I said the number one way to get his attention is to launch. He teaches how to launch. If you launch and you get some sort of results or you have some sort of learning or it impacts your life in a positive way, we share all those stories with him and he may read that and he may decide to reach out and ask you about that. The number two way that you get his attention is not by cornering me in a dark ballroom and insisting that I just book five minutes with him because you've got a story that will change his life. Ask me how many times I've heard that particular nonsense pitch. No judgment on you if you have that, but it's not well thought out enough and like just begging me for time is not enough. You know what you can do to be useful. You can make the community a great place to be. You can go in there and you can help people and be like. I've been studying Jeff's book and you know this is one thing that I learned that I'm about to try. Do you want to be accountability buddies? I promise the team is starting to pay attention and when the team notices your name, then the guru notices your name too, because the team is talking about you and like well, I was going to go in and answer this question but Tanya jumped in and was right on top of it, and so I mean all of this, I think ties into the like the level of experience.

Angie Colee:

Getting somebody quote, unquote importance attention doesn't mean that you have to work your way up to be like an equal level of importance before you've earned the right to talk to them. You can be valuable in their community by showing them that you have used their work and had some success that helps them in their business right. You can be valuable asset to their community by helping other people find success which also grows this person's business, which, like this, is a win-win type situation. There's lots of ways to get these things done without just putting in hours and hours and hours of meaningless grind.

Angie Colee:

Value is subjective. It's different for everybody and it doesn't mean that I have to figure out how to cobble together a million dollars in order to get somebody to listen to me. Yeah, I wish I had learned that a lot earlier than in my career. I would have saved myself so much effort in being like such a try hard and going so over the top trying to impress people when really all I needed to do was show up and help people ask good questions. Answer good questions, like yeah.

Tania Yeo:

Questions especially, and the type of questions says a lot about the person that you are, you know.

Angie Colee:

Oh, yes, that's a gosh. That's such a good thing Like we could probably spend a whole entire hour just talking about questions themselves and what separates a good question from a not so good question. I won't say a bad question, although I guess there are bad questions in the like how do I start a business? That's a bad question because that's like it's so impossibly broad that I could write, you know, 20 books and teach several university courses to get to the crux of how do I start a business and still not give you the information that you need. Asking a good question means something specific, usually Like okay, I am looking for help from a mentor, I want to hire a mentor. For instance, what do you look for in a good mentor? What should I keep my eyes out for? Not like where are the mentors Right? Does that make any sense? I'm like ripping now.

Tania Yeo:

Because I think I know it took me makes total sense. Uh, the reason I said that, um, the type of questions someone asks says a lot about who they are is because, uh, as I've gotten busier over time, I have to be more discerning, you know, like, what questions do answer, and I tend to pay more attention to questions that show that first, like you said, the specificity, and that person actually has an understanding of who they're talking to. Um, and it's trying to build a relationship and not just coming up to a stranger on the internet with a big ask, yes, out of nowhere.

Angie Colee:

Oh, that's such a good point too, like a big ask. A big ask if I don't know you is asking me to connect you to a big, so that five minute conversation that the people that cornered me in the back of the ballroom, they were making a big ask, they were asking me to stake my reputation on this person I don't know, getting them attention in an audience with a person who signs my paychecks. You're not just asking me for an introduction, you are asking me to vouch for you, and if you don't understand the nature of that ask, then yeah, of course you're not going to get the response that you're hoping for. There's also folks that like, when they want to start a business, and if this is you, because you're on the newer end of the spectrum, okay, all of my love. We all start somewhere and we all make these mistakes, so there's zero judgment. But if you come up to me with that question of how do I start a business, I'm going to ask you something like how do I buy a house?

Angie Colee:

I need some information. I buy a house, I need some information. What kind of business? Where? At Physical, digital, virtual?

Tania Yeo:

service-based. Don't get someone else to figure out your context for you.

Angie Colee:

Yes, yes, yes. Come to the table with context and you're much more likely to get your questions answered. And that ties back perfectly to the one that I actually wrote it down and I circled it because I wanted to make sure to circle it back. Make the ask right, even if you're afraid you don't have enough context or if it's not right, because you never know when somebody will be inspired to response right. When you reached out to me, you had such a specific ask and I was just like, yeah, absolutely, you are qualified for this. Like, let's talk about this, but not a single one of us got anywhere without help. And a lot of that help was free, unpaid, absolute generosity from people who have gone before, who also got generosity and attention paid to them for people that have gone before. So there are a lot of us out there that not only respect the tradition but believe it's our duty to okay, I got to a certain level. It's my duty to send the elevator back down to bring more people up here with me. So there you go.

Angie Colee:

Definitely my little rants. Holy crap, have we already been talking for almost an hour? I just looked at it and was like I have so many more questions, but I have to wrap it up. Yeah, it's okay. Oh man, I think we're just gonna have to book a follow up so we can rant more about questions and getting help and accelerating your learning curve Like this is all fascinating stuff. Thank you so much for being on the show. Tell us a little bit more where we can find out about you about the podcast.

Tania Yeo:

So you can listen to my podcast on my website. It's tanya-yocom. I'm sure Angie will have the link in the show notes and that's pretty much it. I don't have much of an online presence for now, but I'm always happy to you know if you have a specific ask. I'm always happy to interact with my readers. Yeah, and I look forward to meeting any especially teachers out there who are thinking of becoming copywriters. Those are my people and I love helping them and I love hearing from them.

Angie Colee:

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. You are absolutely right. I'll make sure that there's a clickable link in the show notes and thank you again for being such a fantastic guest. Thank you.

Tania Yeo:

Thanks for having me.

Angie Colee:

That's all for now. If you want to keep that kick-ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high-octane dose of you can do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Permission to Kick-Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, spotify and wherever you stream your podcasts. I'm your host, angie Coley, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go kick some ass.