Permission to Kick Ass

Riding the freelance rollercoaster with Jen Baxter

• Angie Colee • Episode 192

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This week, I sat down with my friend Jen Baxter, a copywriter and content strategist who's lived an incredible life. We talked about all the ups and downs of entrepreneurship, along with the importance of betting on yourself. If you've ever fantasized about running away to Bali and seeing what happens, you might wanna hit that play button NOW.

Can't-Miss Moments:

  • One-way ticket to paradise: Jen's one of the few people I've met who have flown off to a tropical island with no real plan in mind. Here's what happened... 

  • Answering the important questions: do you still get to call yourself an entrepreneur or a freelancer if you take a job? 

  • SPOILER ALERT: stop treating your life and your business like you can put a coin in a machine, punch a button, and pull out happiness! Here's what to do if you find yourself following the so-called "success steps"...

  • You do NOT need to change everything about who you are to build something incredible. Jen and I explore the difference between trying to fit in and understanding you belong... 

  • How to tell if a slick copywriter or marketer is blowing smoke up your ass (Jen and I share what to look for, how to ID red flags, and when to run screaming for the hills)...

Jen's bio:

Jen Baxter is the Copy Queen authors call when they're tired of feeling like book marketing is a necessary evil. Based in Austin, Texas (by way of San Francisco in a classic "it's not just about the job" move), she turns marketing your non-fiction book from "Ugh, do I have to?" into "Hey, this is actually kind of fun." 

How? By crafting stories and strategies that not only sell books but build lasting connections with raving fans. After navigating the waters of a hybrid publishing company (a tale worthy of its own chapter), Jen now coaches best-selling and emerging authors to find their groove on platforms like Substack.

She's convinced that people still love books, a vibrant email list is key to reaching them, and the iconic British red phone boxes are due for a comeback. 

Through her weekly Substack, The Skillful Scribbler, she spins life's raw material into stories that make you laugh, reflect, and occasionally snort – all while serving up actionable tips for authors to identify, attract, and grow a tribe of loyal readers ready to buy their book.

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Angie Colee:

Welcome to Permission to Kick Ass, the show that gives you a virtual seat at the bar for the real conversations that happen between entrepreneurs. I'm interviewing all kinds of business owners, from those just a few years into freelancing to CEOs helming nine-figure companies. If you've ever worried that everyone else just seems to get it and you're missing something or messing things up, this show is for you. I'm your host, angie Coley, and let's get to it and welcome back to Permission to Kick Ass. With me today is my friend, jen Baxter. Say hi, hi. I'm excited for this one because you've got a lot of fun stuff to tell us, especially about your recent trip to Morocco. But before we get into that, tell me a little bit more about what you do.

Jen Baxter:

Hey, angie, I'm excited to be here and talk to you because you always bring the good vibes and I need them right now, so that's great. So I'm a copywriter and a content strategist. I have most recently worked with authors, helping them do their author websites and launch their books and create an online community of readers, and I also have a regular newsletter called the Skillful Scribbler. That's on Substack, and I've been growing that for the past eight, nine months too.

Angie Colee:

Well, that's fantastic. What got you into that?

Jen Baxter:

The newsletter or the copywriting, or both or both, let's get into both newsletter or the copywriting, or both or both, let's get into both. So copywriting, I'd say, happened about 10 years ago. I was traveling, which will bring it back to Morocco, but I had a really stable corporate career in healthcare and I went through some personal challenges for a couple of years before my parents died of cancer and at the end of it I was like I just I need to change some things. So I bought a one-way ticket to Bali, indonesia. I was going to stay for three months, travel around Southeast Asia, come back, look for another job, do the right thing. And I ended up staying for three years and during that time I ended up doing freelance writing and photography and I discovered Copyblogger and the lovely Sonia Simone and so right. So I came back from that and this.

Jen Baxter:

I sort of had this feeling. I'm from San Francisco and I just had this feeling if I don't sort of put my flag in the ground now and start to at least attempt to become a writer, a freelance writer, I will never do it Like I will get a job and I'll go back into the same old grind and I'll say I'm doing it on the side, but I won't really do it. So I landed in San Francisco because that's where I'm from and that's my support system. Not the brightest thing to try to launch a freelance career in the most expensive city in the US.

Jen Baxter:

I gotta say I don't advise it, but the support system is really important, something like that. So I just I started pitching and I started doing some social media stuff and I was listening to a lot of copy blogger and that's really how I started learning. And then I connected with the lovely Sonia Simone, who has been a mentor since then and from there I did some online courses and then I connected with you because I really started to understand the power of all these great women copywriters online that were mentoring people. So through Marcella Allison, I met you really helpful and I feel like that's part of what kept me going was that I found this group of women writers online that I was like oh, I can do this Like this, this fits. You know what I mean. So I just experimented.

Jen Baxter:

I did a lot of content for real estate agents, I did some copywriting for coaches, I did websites, like whatever I could get my hands on, and a lot of times it was like a very fallow time right, like definitely the hills and valleys, and then COVID came and I was like all right, like many clients went away, like it did for everybody, and I thought I've got to do something that kind of helps me and helps other people, and I had been doing these writing circles for women for a long time free writing circles, so not about being a better writer, not about writing your weekly emails, but actually an emotional release, about getting stuff out on the page, about helping you emotionally, mentally, physically, and also to like calm your nervous system right, to just kind of write to prompts and get all that stuff that you're stuffing down out.

Jen Baxter:

And it went really well during COVID, right Like I had a lot of women signing up because everybody needed that safe space. So I created a safe space. There's no talking or chatter. We did that for a couple months and then I got a job in Austin, texas, with a book publishing company, and so I picked up everything at the end of 2021 and said, okay, I'm going to trust my gut and start this book publishing company, start with it. And I moved to Austin and did that for about two years and during that time that's when I really took my newsletter seriously, working for Scribe, because I saw how important it was for authors to have a newsletter and have an audience when they launched their books.

Jen Baxter:

I mean, there's just no way around it, right, and it was something that I had from copywriting like I had been doing it for years, but it was so hard to keep it going and it was also so hard to find the consistency in it, right, because sometimes I'm writing about copywriting and then I started doing the writing circles and I'd write about that, and then I did some photography workshops with companies and I'd write about that. So I sort of had this mishmash of like a little over a hundred people who I'd write to, but I didn't really have any goals let's just put it that way Like there was no strategy behind it. So once I moved to Austin and started working with authors, I was like, oh no, this, this is something that, like, I have to do for myself. It was kind of that edge I needed to scratch for myself. So then the job went away because the company filed bankruptcy and laid everybody off.

Angie Colee:

That is a juicy story, by the way. Everybody like we're not sharing anything that hasn't been extensively written about in the public. If you want all of the tea and all of the drama and to more deeply understand the gigantic upheaval that was Jen's experience with this company, go look up Scribe Media.

Jen Baxter:

Go look on LinkedIn.

Angie Colee:

It's crazy and this is why, like I constantly rail about, business is hard right, I'm not trying. I'm not one of those internet gurus out there telling you well, if you just invest in my system, you're going to be sipping Mai Tais on the beach. You've all heard me rant about laptops. Go nowhere near the beach. We're not at no, no sand in the laptop. No, working at the beach. That's not happening.

Angie Colee:

But also, god, at the end of the day, I don't want to show up someday and have the rug ripped out from under me because, you know, a partner has absconded with all the all of the money, a CEO has made a decision that suddenly means everybody is laid off. Like I could lose a client, that could be my nasty surprise for the day. But the likelihood that I'm going to be fired from my own business any day that I show up pretty, I mean I'm in good with the boss, she's me and I respect my ability to hustle and I you know this. This phrase keeps coming back up to me and I feel the need to mention it today.

Angie Colee:

When you build a business, try not to build it on the wrong things. Right, it's not about the platform, it's not about the system. It's not about the niche, it's not about any of that. A bird does not sit on a branch because it trusts the branch not to break. The bird trusts itself to fly away Right, and I think that that's the attitude that we all need to bring into everything we do, not just business. But I trust myself to recover from this. This branch I'm sitting on could break and I will be fine.

Jen Baxter:

No great yeah, Because I do feel like there are inflection points in life where you have the choice of betting on yourself I think that's the best way to put it and sometimes it doesn't make sense to bet on yourself, right? I've been in financial situations, health situations where, like I have to say, when I started the scribe job, unbeknownst to me, like I had a heart arrhythmia condition that I did not know about when I started and nobody at scribe knew either the whole time. So thank God, I had the health insurance.

Angie Colee:

And thank God I had a job.

Jen Baxter:

That was really easy for me to do. Authors were happy, I enjoyed working with them, I delivered good websites, I did good writing for them and I could also manage this. So that was a huge I mean. I do feel like. In fact, I feel like this is a good conversation for us to have. I have learned that, like you have, it's this fine balance of learning when to bet on yourself and then when to say, okay, actually I need the extra support, and like I need the health insurance and I need the 401k, and that makes more sense now because actually that will help me emotionally, psychologically, to feel secure and get that regular paycheck. But it doesn't mean that it's going to always be that way. There will come another point, another choice where it'll be time to bet on myself.

Angie Colee:

Yes, yes, exactly, you know. I'm glad that you brought that up too, because the rants that I was on before made it sound like never trust a job. And that is not the implication. I'm not an always or never person, I am a you know, we have all of these wonderful shades of gray about humanity. We have so many possibilities. It's never either or. I just said I'm not an always or never person. I said it's never either or, but I think you get what it like. We contain multitudes Simultaneously. Things can be true Like I don't think a job is the way to go if you want to have the kind of success that most of us dream about, and also some people find success at jobs, and also some people don't really enjoy the process of entrepreneurship, Like. All of these things can be true. It's up to us to figure out our own path and what is worth the struggle, the juice that's worth the squeeze.

Jen Baxter:

Yeah, I agree, and I would add to that too, in terms of being a human like, we have to be flexible about what we need right. So even if you have started a business that you are 100% in on, there could come a time in your family where you need to take a step back and take a steady job in order to keep that dream going, to actually make it be healthy. So I feel like that's a very big learning that I have. You know, I'm grateful that I went all in on the writing because it has led me on like a personal growth path that I would not have experienced. And it's more than just oh, you know you decide whether or not you want to be working for yourself or you want to work for someone else. And it's even more than just oh, you know you decide whether or not you want to be working for yourself or you want to work for someone else. And it's even more than decide when it's about recognizing okay, I'm tired and I'm not going to be doing great stuff and the pitching is not going to happen because I'm not bringing myself to it. How can I now make a better choice where I'm taking care of everything so that I can relax a little and then the writing will get better, I'll get more excited about pitching, I'll find more interesting opportunities, because I've kind of taken care of that base level for now and to also set yourself up, I mean, I think this is where my newsletter has come in in the last eight months.

Jen Baxter:

Like before Scribe, before everything imploded, I had already started a sub stack because I was already thinking to myself okay, here's the thing, now that I'm relaxed and now that I actually feel financially secure and emotionally secure and I'm in a good place, this won't last forever.

Jen Baxter:

I know that right right, there's like a sweet spot, right Right, like things are going well, things are, you're being taken care of, but it will change and when it changes, I need to have something that I can lean into, where I'm betting on myself. Right, because life goes back and forth. So that's really how it starts my free time. Because I had this itch I had to scratch, which is one, like I think it's the email list for me that really I really need to get under my belt. Like I need to have that because that I understand how that works in terms of a writing practice and I understand how that works in terms of selling things and finding new clients and having that regular foundation, right. But at the same time too, I was like, if this goes away, like I have got to have something else where I can better myself in place, and there were no signs. I mean, I can say I'm not going to say that there were no signs, because obviously there were signs.

Angie Colee:

There was probably some your unconscious picked up on that.

Jen Baxter:

That's exactly what I was going to say Exactly Like there must've been a lot of signs and I was, you know, being positive about things going. Oh no, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. And then, at the end of the day, like I was right, like I was like, oh shit, I've got to do this. And so, instead of rushing to find another job right away in a panic because that's when I mean, I've learned, that's when you know, I want to go find another job right away and I had enough saved up and I had this newsletter started where I was like I've got to bet on myself for a couple months and I need to at least figure this out and have my own foundation, and then I'll get another job.

Jen Baxter:

Like it's not, it won't be a crisis thing. It'll be like, okay, I'm ready. I'm actually ready for a steady paycheck now. I'm ready for a one-day, like I want the health insurance, and then I'll kind of bring my best game for you. So I do feel like. I do feel like entrepreneurs in general. We don't talk about that enough. You know what I mean that this going back and forth, depending on what life throws at you.

Angie Colee:

I think there are a lot of people that feel a lot of shame. I know I've certainly had guests on where we talked about that Like, does that make me a failure? Am I allowed to call myself an entrepreneur? I remember that one that's one of I'm not supposed to say favorites, but that was one of my favorite conversations because I think that that comes up a lot, especially in creative circles. That's Carolyn and Anian in episode seven and you know she's. She's somebody who is like you, freelanced a lot and gone in house and was like do you know? That was something I was scared of. Do I get to call myself an entrepreneur If I've got a day job? The answer is yes. You get to call yourself an entrepreneur If you feel like an entrepreneur.

Angie Colee:

What show were you listening to? It's called permission to kick ass. There's your little aside, right. You get to call yourself whatever you want to call yourself. Just don't call yourself a shitty name in front of me, because you know I'll get up on a soapbox and tell you that's not true. Steps forward, steps back, steps, side steps. This journey is full of all of them. Missed steps, right. Nobody knows where this is going to go. All we can do is go. I'm setting my target for there and I think that's. I think I've figured out a way to get there, and you have to adjust along the way. It's all you can do.

Jen Baxter:

I know that is such good advice. That is such good advice because I do feel like when you're struggling and you're in a little bit of panic mode because you are struggling, you feel at least I have felt like everybody already knows the steps and I got left out of, I missed that class, I didn't take the right notes right, or I didn't take the right online course because I missed the steps and now I'm skipping over steps trying to catch up with everybody else, and actually it's not like that.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, some people have an escalator. They never had to worry about the steps. And some people have, like a little step ladders worth of steps. And some people have, like, have you ever been to Columbia? There was a rock I climbed there called Del Pinole, with over 600 steps. So some people have Del Pinole climbing up and up and up and up in a zigzag. The steps don't exist. I was talking with another guest about that earlier.

Angie Colee:

We got to stop expecting. If I put my coin in this machine and I push the right sequence of buttons, my happiness will come out. I have followed all of the steps, I have done all of the steps. I have done all of the things.

Angie Colee:

Why did I not get that, with all of the love I have, is entitlement and it's unrealistic and it's like the thing that we I really and I say this as much to myself as to anybody listening we have got to stop pretending like it's possible to have all the answers. Whether someone else has all the answers or if we only work hard enough, we can come up with all the answers. None of us knows what the hell we're doing. We have a pretty good idea of what should happen next, but you know I've told this ties back into kind of like guarantees with copywriting. I've had clients ask me before what can you guarantee me? I said I can't guarantee you anything Really. And they're like, well, why should I work with you? And I said, look, let me break down guarantees and why I won't do it and why. I think anybody who is guaranteeing you you really got to look at their motivations and their track record to see if they're trying to pull one over on you, because guarantees are pretty hard in this industry. You want to know why? I know Because in January and February of 2021, hell, aka Texas, froze over.

Angie Colee:

A lot of marketing campaigns failed that day. A lot of really good marketing campaigns failed that day when Texas went off the grid and froze. So there are no guarantees. A pandemic happened in 2020 that a lot of people are still reeling from. There are multiple world wars happening around the world right now. Nobody knows what's going to happen. So we got to stop pretending like there are steps somewhere and if only I discover the step, the steps, I will finally get my happiness. You can be happy right here and right now, and it may be a bit of work on self and to like, refocus on the things that you've got going for you instead of stressing about the things that you don't have yet yet. But there you go. We're just going to get ranty today, that's well, I'm rancy or not.

Jen Baxter:

I just had an aha moment that I had to write down while you were on that, because I've never seen, I've never thought of it like entitlement. So, thank you, I'm going to boom like I'm going to have to sit with that for a minute Like I want to have one on this Namaste. Hang on for a second Pause, hit pause, because I've never thought of expecting to know all the steps as entitlement and I guess you're right, like I think you're right. I mean, I, I have a lot of that. I mean I know I have a lot of that in my life already. So I'm not it's not like, oh, I didn't know, but I didn't understand that, that kind of thinking. I never realized that before. But I would agree with you on that. Actually, because it is. It's an experiment. It's not a series of steps.

Angie Colee:

It's actually an experiment of trying different things, paying attention to what the outcomes are and then making decisions based on that practice is built around that, that not everybody has the same support system, like you mentioned access to resources, the ability to move fast, the ability to absorb losses right, because if you're playing from a I don't have much money, I'm going to try stuff. Some people will approach it from a well, I got nothing to lose, I'm going to throw everything I have into it. And some people will approach it from a well, I've got to protect what little I have because I can't afford to be homeless on the streets. So they will make more cautious, smaller, slower steps forward. Does that make their journey any less important or less impactful or less meaningful than somebody who shot for the stars? I don't think so. I think we've all got a part to play, no matter how fast or slow we're going. I, just I, and this is, like I said again, as much to me as to anybody listening. I constantly feel like I have to remind myself that my value was just having this conversation yesterday with a mastermind, so it's super timely.

Angie Colee:

My value, your value, listener, your value, jen, is not measured by what you can do for people. You are already valuable. Your business does not have to be successful for you to be valuable. You do not have to have all of the money in the world to be valuable. You don't have to earn this. You have it already. And if there are people out there telling you that you're not valuable, fuck those people. Not literally, they haven't earned that, but like no, no. You are a miracle. Yeah, we that, but like no, no you are a miracle.

Jen Baxter:

Yeah, we're going to get ranty today, I agree with you. I agree with you about that, although I forget that a hundred percent when I have to pay my rent and the Cobra insurance. So that's just why I'm here today with you, cause I'm like Angie will totally cheer me up. So what I want to come back to again the other thing you said that I wrote down is about the guarantee people asking for copyrighted guarantees. So this was a huge aha moment when I decided, oh, you know, the newsletter is actually having a renaissance right now, but like, I'm gonna hop on that because I've come far enough and it's such a good writing practice and I understand the basics. And the aha moment was look it takes.

Jen Baxter:

There are many different factors that make your thing sell and I can be the best writer in the world. Angie can be the most strategic, focused, I mean, and she's done it right, like cha-ching copywriter you have. But if you don't have the right list of people and the right offer for those people and something really valuable in you that connects with them, ain't like, ain't no writer gonna help you make money, like it just doesn't work that way. And it's like it took me on. It took me a like a lot of hard, the lesson of hard knocks to realize, oh, it's not just me, actually, but what is me is it's on me to tell that person, you know what. There's some pieces that you really need to place, and if you don't have those, my copywriting is not going to help you as much as you want. Right, and that's like a big thing to a know and another thing to be able to say to someone when you, you know, want the job.

Angie Colee:

Oh yes, oh yes.

Jen Baxter:

Right, but it's the truth. It is the truth Right. And it doesn't mean that that person can't get those things in place Right? It just means that they don't have them. Therefore, you have to temper their expectations about the results.

Angie Colee:

Yeah, for anybody who has never heard me rant about copy before, if you're brand new to the show, copywriters are specialty writers who focus on marketing and advertising. So a lot of us work in sales. But there's there's also the Mad Men branch, right, that do big marketing campaigns and Geico and Superbowl commercials and stuff like that. Jen and I well, you, you mentioned that you're in content I'm more direct response. So like sales oriented, and I'm very proud to say I've sold over $100 million worth of product and I've done it without selling my soul, like I have very much stood on. If I can't sell this to my little old grandma without feeling like a piece of shit, I will not sell it. I have quit jobs for that. I have refused to run campaigns for that. I've parted ways with clients and lost like five figures a month in revenue because I wouldn't do that.

Angie Colee:

So, like there's a way to be in alignment with your soul and sell stuff, I feel very strongly about that and I fell early in my career for that line of like a copy is the magic, it's what makes it work. It is not. And anybody that tries to sell you that line, they're literally just trying to get money from you right, you need to have an offer, you need to have people who want to work with you and want that thing that you have to offer. And once those things are in place, what I do, what Jen does, can take it, take your results and exponentially, multiply them exponentially, like I've done it exponentially. I'm not even lying, but I can't write magic. I really wish I could, because I'm a Disney girl at heart, but I can't.

Jen Baxter:

It's funny, yeah, so of course. And that I mean I feel like actually you becoming a mentor in the Marcella Allison group I know it's been through many iterations, right, but was so helpful to me because I so respect who you've worked for and who you've worked with and the results and then to hear that and understand that like that's what a mentor does, right, it level, sets your expectations about what's possible and then it helps you move forward in a realistic way, saying, oh, it's actually not about this thing, that I thought it was about it's actually about me just taking the next step and understanding what my strengths are and seeing the playing field and being able to explain that playing field realistically to my clients and like I saw this new skepticism that's got, I mean, obviously a lot of the shrinkage that's happening now in the marketplace and, like the slowdown in many of the industries that I'm involved in, we're recording this in May of 2024.

Angie Colee:

I'm not sure when it's going to air yet, but like there's there's a lot of hesitancy and there's a lot of skepticism, especially in coaching and online marketing, online businesses and things like that, and I think well-deserved, because for too long there were people out there that would say anything to make the sale, yeah, and they didn't care about the results, they just cared about the sale. And so I've speculated. I was like, ok, this, this pendulum is going to swing from wild West to. We can say whatever we want in the name of being able to go. I sold all the things right, um to no, like how, how do you sell when all of the tricks don't work because the audience is too savvy for your tricks? That's how you know when you're really skilled.

Jen Baxter:

So it's interesting. So what that makes me think about is, um, one of the ways that I bet on myself after the scribe thing imploded and I decided, ok, I'm going to embrace the newsletter. Renaissance is. I joined Shrimp Club with Laura Belgray. So a little shout out to Laura, and basically because I needed to laugh and I really wanted to surround myself with the support group, right. But this is the thing Laura is really good at entertaining people. Like her emails are funny, right.

Jen Baxter:

And even when you get a lot of sales emails which inevitably sorry, but they a lot of sales emails a sequence can get annoying when you're not, you know, up for that. But like, the personal stories that come before them are still good, right. And so that's where I was like you know, I really want to get good at those personal stories because I had gotten that feedback from other people, people who are on my list, old clients and stuff who were opening my emails all the time. But not even like for a women's writing group, I had some men photographers opening it. So I emailed this guy, these guys, and I was like I just have to ask, like what is it that you like? Like I'm so curious, it'll help me. And they were like oh, I love how you can tell stories about your life and then you pull it around to writing or you pull it around to something you know I may not be interested in your group, but actually I just love getting to know you like that. And so I was like, ah, okay, so that's kind of what. Obviously, what I'm doing, that I like to do, that's resonating with people right. So now I'm gonna bet on myself and learn from the person who I I think does that best on the internet right now.

Jen Baxter:

Like there are a lot of people that do really well, but Laura, we like she makes you laugh. So I feel like that is what I've learned in the last six months. People really want that connection. I mean, you know what we're talking about with Laura, and Trill Club is different, because it is. You do have to have a, you have to be at a certain financial point in your business to invest in something like that. But what I've realized is that this is what people are responding to. They want more one-on-one stuff, they want more real connection. They want funny personal stories, because we're all struggling with a lot of the things that you and I have been talking about and feeling like okay, I'm tired of online courses and steps, I can't do any more steps, I just want to meet people and have the support system. Oh man, this is, this is all so great.

Angie Colee:

Um, where do I want to go next? This is all so great. Where do I want to go next? I've written down so many things. One I didn't know that you had like okay, so this is the ADHD portion of the conversation. Right, I'm just going to abrupt left turn. Here we go. I had no idea that you just like up and went to Bali. That is fantastic. What inspired that?

Jen Baxter:

Angie, that's such a perfect. You're really going back now, but it's such a personal. I'm just gonna say it. It's gonna, I mean, the right people will listen to this and resonate with it. And if you don't resonate with this, probably shouldn't, you know, hang it together, but so.

Jen Baxter:

I was at a very real point in my life where I was um talk about following the steps, like I had carved out a nice little box for myself and would not allow myself to get out of it. And part of that was necessity, which was, you know, I had two older parents that were dying of cancer pretty much around the same time and it was really stressful. And I had a job in healthcare, so I was living in a hospital 24 seven. I was on the business side, but still I was talking to doctors all the time and doing presentations. And so I hit a point after that where, after they passed, like I really needed time off, but I was not. I was. My identity was so wrapped up in my career. I felt like that was the only security I had. And so a friend of mine said to me you know, I'm beginning massages from this woman. Yeah, you know how to go. I think it'll really help you. And so I went to this woman in San Francisco who was basically an energy worker and I had never been to one, I'd never heard of one, and like it was really the beginning of my spiritual awakening in a lot of ways, because I was very much in a box and I had been in therapy and I obviously knew I needed a lot of support during that time. But I went to this woman. She never gave me a massage, she never touched me in like the two years I went to work. She just did a lot of different things.

Jen Baxter:

And all this stuff started changing. Like a whole series of things happened and at some point I said I feel like I'm supposed to quit my job and like travel and I had had watched a few friends do that we were all single, none of us had kids and over the course of my parents being really ill, I'd watch people go to India and Thailand and Vietnam was a big thing, and I was seeing all this on Facebook and I was thinking to myself literally like every day, like that will never be my life, that will never be me, that's okay. And then one of them was like sister, it's time you have to quit your job and go travel. Like you, you're not married, you don't have kids, you're doing this to yourself, right? You have plenty of money right now. Like, you're fine, go travel.

Jen Baxter:

I was like really, and I was training for this the San Francisco to LA, the AIDS ride, the bike ride and I fell off my bike a year to the date that my mom died and I had to take time off for her. So on the that anniversary and taking that time off, I was like recovering from a broken wrist and I was having all these sort of awakenings and I said to this woman like I think I'm supposed to quit my job. She's like that's the first thing that you've said since I met you that has made any sense. I said I don't, I don't even know where I go or what I do. I don't, I don't even know. She's like we'll get on the table and we'll ask and we'll figure it out. So I caught on her table, she moved her hands around, she did some stuff and she said Bali, I'm getting Bali, there's a group of people you need to meet in Bali. And like that was the first moment.

Jen Baxter:

I guess I really that was not the first moment in my life. I've trusted myself once or twice before then but that was one of those pivotal moments where I'm like I've got nothing else, I'm just going to do it. And I started talking to people like that. Like I talked to I had a financial advisor and I said that to her and she said that's a great idea, like if advisor. And I said that to her and she said that's a great idea, like if you need permission to do that, I'm giving you permission.

Jen Baxter:

I talked to my boss and my boss said you know what, if you were anyone else at this stage in their career, I'd try to talk them out of it, seeing what you've been through in the last few years. He's like if that way, that's what your intuition is telling you, you've got to follow it. It's I. He's like I've lived a long time. This, this is what you have to do.

Jen Baxter:

And I was like all right, so that was how it happened. I mean, I'm not kidding, I got that information, I trusted it. I knew life had to change. That was in my sphere. Like that was the thing. That was the next step for me to take. It was just a matter of whether or not I would let myself take it. And I did, and take it and I did. And once I got there, I got one on a one-way ticket, because a friend of mine said you know, look, if you can afford it, just buy the one-way ticket. She's like you know, don't, don't. I was going to come back for someone's wedding and she said, unless they're your sister or your best friend, they will not know that you're not there on their special day. Like, buy the one-way ticket and if you want to come home because you're scared or it's not going well or whatever, you can come home from anywhere and it's not a big deal. So I did and then I had stayed for like three years. It's crazy.

Angie Colee:

I love that it was amazing.

Jen Baxter:

It was, in so many ways I mean, made. Obviously it made a huge difference, but it has given me a foundation inside to check in with. Am I not doing this because I'm so scared? Or am I not doing this because it's actually not the next thing for me to do like the door's not open? What's the difference between the door being open and me being too afraid to step through it?

Jen Baxter:

or it actually just not being open and I need to look somewhere else for where there is no door, because by no account was there any reason that I should end up in that experience well, and I love that distinction.

Angie Colee:

Like, looking at this, is there really something that, like, that door is not open to me, or is this just fear talking? I think we don't really examine our fears often enough to be able to be that real with ourselves. And I've had similar instances One I've talked about on this show before and it's so interesting to me that both of our decisions like that happened in or around San Francisco. I was living in San Jose area at the time when, basically, like I had to either go home and move back in with parents and go back to waiting tables or I had to, like, take a stand and I actually moved into my car and was homeless for a little while. But the day that I lost the apartment and had to turn over keys is the day that I got my first part-time junior copywriting role. So, like there was something in the universe, there was something within me that just said stay here, and it didn't make. This is the point that I'm trying to circle around to.

Angie Colee:

Sometimes things that you feel called to do don't make a damn bit of sense to anybody else in your life, or they only make sense to a few people that you trust, and I'm glad that the people that you asked were people that you could trust with that dream, who wouldn't go like, oh my God, that's dumb. Here are all the reasons why don't do that. That's usually their fear Crapping all over you. I was grateful for it. So, like I left San Francisco, I had an abusive relationship there I decided to escape to Jacksonville, florida, get as far away as possible, right, and I had a girlfriend there who I was talking with, a man that I had been flirting with for like 20 years Shout out to Mark if you're listening and he he's from New Zealand. And he jokingly told me hey, you should meet me in Fiji, that's like halfway. And I was like that's not halfway, that's like three hours for you and like 30 hours for me. I told this to my friend in passing and she goes you should meet him in Fiji, why not? You're young, you're single, you got a job, you can go to Fiji, it's fine. No-transcript, right? There's no reason I can't go to Fiji. Like, all of the excuses that I've come up with are bullshit. So I would have to take time off work. I've got a new job, okay, cool. So you take time off work and you tell them. I'm fortunate enough to be going to Fiji. I'm really excited about this. Thanks, thanks for the opportunity. I'll make it work, all right. Uh, go hang out with people I don't really know very well in Fiji. Cool, it's an adventure. I don't know anybody in Fiji. We'll just explore and see what happens.

Angie Colee:

Right, and I know that, like there's, there's definitely some privilege involved in this. Right, I had the money, I had the time, I had the job, I had the support. Not everybody can uproot and go to Bali and Fiji, and I totally understand that. But does this stop the fact that, like, maybe you need to move to this state, next state over, maybe you need to go to a new city, maybe you need to take some time off work and ask yourself if this is really the path for you? Right, everybody's journey is different. I'm not saying that you need to uproot to another country or put it all on a credit card or anything like that, but I'm a big fan of trusting that little voice inside you that says this is the next step, even when it doesn't make sense. Like, sit with it, examine. Is this fear talking? Is this excitement talking? Is this an option that I could actually take. I wonder what would happen if and treat it exactly like you said earlier, jen, as an experiment. See what happens.

Jen Baxter:

So what I love about what you just shared, too, is the timing of this. The timing is always a sign right. So you gave up the keys to your apartment, you're in your car and that's when the job came through. That is a timing that ought to not be ignored.

Angie Colee:

The irony of that one is not lost on me, like I've told people before. Why I think that that is so important is if I hadn't trusted myself, I would have been on the road to Texas when the job offer came through. I literally would not have been there to accept the job if I hadn't trusted myself. Sorry and I interrupted you. You sounded like you were on a roll. Please continue.

Jen Baxter:

No, that that was the role, that was it. Like I was listening to what you were saying and I'm like oh, these are the inflection points, that where you get the I mean, it's like the experiment that we're talking about you get the feedback. You get the feedback that like, yes, that's the, that's the step, that's the door that was open.

Angie Colee:

Yes, and it's only possible to see whether it was the right step or not after you've already taken it. And I think that's the key too, that so many of us we sit here before taking that step and we analyze and evaluate every single possible pro and con and worst case scenario and make all the plans and stuff like that and never actually take the step. And sometimes it's just as simple as taking the step and see what happens. Does that give us more data? Did nothing happen? Did everything happen? Did it all come crashing down? Okay, well, maybe that was a bad step. Is it recoverable? Absolutely, as long as you've got a breath in your body, you can figure things out, yeah.

Jen Baxter:

I mean before Bali, I would say you just described how I used to do things perfectly, which was literally especially for jobs writing down the pros and cons right, analyzing everything and also knowing inside that that's not the way I make decisions, knowing full well inside that that is not how I make decisions. But I was not going to make a mistake, I was going to do it right, so nobody could shit on me. It's pretty much how I was living my life. That was the deal.

Angie Colee:

Another guest that I was recording with earlier. We talked about that. I think the difference between fitting in, which is basically adjusting all of yourself to meet somebody else's expectations, versus belonging when you are exactly who you feel like you need to be and you still can walk into the room and know I belong here without having to change anything about yourself it's like too many of us conflate the two. I conflated it too. I've told that story many times about how early in my copy career I wasn't, didn't have the wild hair, didn't have the piercings. I would show up in a blazer was usually pretty quiet because I've been told all my life I'm a little bit too loud. And then I told a story about a mosh pit fight and people started going who is this? Why don't I know that about you? Because I was told it was bad and it was inappropriate and it was unprofessional. What yeah?

Angie Colee:

But after a while I got tired of fitting in because it made me miserable and it didn't seem to be making anybody else happier. So why the hell are we even fucking doing this? If you don't like me, don't listen to this show, Don't show up Like. If you see me in a room, walk to another room. It's really that simple, guys. We've got to stop pretending like we don't have any agency in all of this stuff. We got the snaps. We got the snaps. Well, that feels like a good place to like wrap it up in a nice neat little bow. Thank you so much for being such a fantastic guest and for following me all over the map on that conversation, but I loved it. Please tell us more where we can learn about you and your business and the newsletter stuff. Let's, let's, get into it.

Jen Baxter:

I know Well actually that's kind of the perfect note, because so the newsletter is really all about me coming up with a writing practice for myself and kind of scratching this itch about like being consistent and let's do this and the writing circles. It started out revolving around writing circles, where that's what we do. We kind of do that on the page, just what Angie and I are doing. Right, we start with a prompt, but really it's about creating a safe space that you can just rant and get it all out and that's how you understand what's happening inside, like all the things that you're shoving down right. So that's what the practice my writing practice is about in my writing service. So if that excites, you come check me out on Substack at the Spillful Scribbler. However, it is also evolved into something else, which is now that I've kind of grown. Now that I have grown it haven't kind of grown it, I have grown it and I've learned a lot about Substack in the process. And also I've become an email marketer helping authors launch their books. I really love coaching people to start their own email list, whether it's Substack. Like I have a niche expertise in Substack right now, so I can totally help you get started on that. But, like you know, convertkit I know that it's not about the email platform. It's actually about consistency and it's a lot about what Angie and I were talking about, like, okay, am I going to do this? Because I'm betting on myself and I realized that it's an experiment and I have to write every week, or maybe I have to write twice a month. But actually I'm doing this for a reason inside me that, will you know, equate to dollars at some point, or equate to being a better writer, or equate to connecting with the right people. Whatever your goal is, like, I actually am enjoying helping those people go from zero to 500. Right, so, like I kind of decided, like that's my thing. That was.

Jen Baxter:

What I struggled with the most was being the person that like actually went from zero to 500 and still hovered at around a hundred and something for like eight years because I was sort of doing things. I didn't really know what I was doing. I'm sometimes writing about this, sometimes I'm writing about that, sometimes I'm not writing for months, right, so that's really like what the Substack is about. So, come on over, it's Jen Baxter at Substack, or the Skillful Scribbler. And then also, if Substack is something you're interested in, I'm going to give Angie a link and I've got a few starter videos so that you can just check it out and see.

Jen Baxter:

But also if writing is, if it's the writing that you're struggling with, and especially writing consistently. The writing circles are great and you can check me out at jenbaxtercom where I do a lot of writing coaching now and it's really around your newsletter, email marketing and you know, finding your voice is what I would actually say, like I'm moving more into right, like this time of betting on myself. What's really kind of coming out is I really love people, helping them find their voice on the page, right, like you know, how do you have a conversation like this and how do you turn that into a newsletter?

Angie Colee:

So I can't wait to see what I write about from this.

Jen Baxter:

I know, because this is the stuff. This is the stuff that people want to read right now. This is the connection that we need, so I should set myself a little goal of how many newsletters can I turn in to turn this podcast into about the topics that we covered you know, yeah, that would be fantastic.

Angie Colee:

Topics that we covered. You know, yeah, that would be fantastic, and I want, I want every single one of them, please. What a perfect little way to punctuate all of this the world is dying for in this age of artificial intelligence, in this uh, you know sea of beige that we are trending toward, with everybody starting to sound the same Every time you got the little gremlin that pops up in your head and says this is not the way it's supposed to be. I'm supposed to sound like this, I'm supposed to do that. This is what so-and-so says Fuck it, do it your way. Permission to kick ass granted, there we go.

Jen Baxter:

Thank you, yeah, and that's, it's the. That's the great place to do it right, like your own little list where you get to have your own little thoughts and ideas and find the people that you can talk to Exactly, exactly, well.

Angie Colee:

Thank you so much again for being such a fantastic guest. I really appreciate you.

Jen Baxter:

So fun, you're so fun to talk to.

Angie Colee:

That's all for now. If you want to keep that kick-ass energy high, please take a minute to share this episode with someone that might need a high-octane dose of you Can Do it. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Permission to Kick Ass podcast on Apple Podcasts, spotify and wherever you stream your podcasts. I'm your host, angie Coley, and I'm here rooting for you. Thanks for listening and let's go kick some ass.