To join the Whole Parent community FREE
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When your past knocks on the door unexpectedly after 18 years, you realize that fatherhood isn't just a role—it's a journey full of profound discoveries.
This realization comes to life in my heartfelt sit-down with Larry Hagner from the Dad Edge podcast. We peel back the layers of what it means to be an active, engaged parent, touching on everything from the transformative effects of a standing desk to the emotional rollercoasters tied to our own childhood stories.
As a father to four boys and a husband for over two decades, Larry brings a wealth of experience and insight into the art of communication and the power of vulnerability within family relationships.
We share tales from our personal lives, revealing how past pains, like dealing with an absent father or the trials within stepfamilies, have sculpted our approaches to parenthood. It's a conversation that traverses the peaks and valleys of raising kids and nurturing a marriage, all while continuously growing as individuals.
The promises we make as parents and the effort it takes to fulfill them are the pillars of this episode. I get real about the intricacies of discipline, the commitment to creating a loving environment, and the intentional raising of emotionally intelligent boys. We discuss the importance of setting boundaries while also being a beacon of safety and guidance.
These stories and advice are woven into a rich tapestry that reflects the enduring impact of fatherhood on personal growth and the legacies we build for our children.
Join us for a discussion that's not just about parenting but about the essence of manhood and the indelible marks we leave on those we love.
To join the Whole Parent community FREE
CLICK HERE
https://thedadedge.com/
When your past knocks on the door unexpectedly after 18 years, you realize that fatherhood isn't just a role—it's a journey full of profound discoveries.
This realization comes to life in my heartfelt sit-down with Larry Hagner from the Dad Edge podcast. We peel back the layers of what it means to be an active, engaged parent, touching on everything from the transformative effects of a standing desk to the emotional rollercoasters tied to our own childhood stories.
As a father to four boys and a husband for over two decades, Larry brings a wealth of experience and insight into the art of communication and the power of vulnerability within family relationships.
We share tales from our personal lives, revealing how past pains, like dealing with an absent father or the trials within stepfamilies, have sculpted our approaches to parenthood. It's a conversation that traverses the peaks and valleys of raising kids and nurturing a marriage, all while continuously growing as individuals.
The promises we make as parents and the effort it takes to fulfill them are the pillars of this episode. I get real about the intricacies of discipline, the commitment to creating a loving environment, and the intentional raising of emotionally intelligent boys. We discuss the importance of setting boundaries while also being a beacon of safety and guidance.
These stories and advice are woven into a rich tapestry that reflects the enduring impact of fatherhood on personal growth and the legacies we build for our children.
Join us for a discussion that's not just about parenting but about the essence of manhood and the indelible marks we leave on those we love.
I was like, uh, yeah, I couldn't believe this. I was like my dad just walked in here and she's like what Wow. And I was like he's right over there, like 50 feet for me, a few tables over, and she's like, oh my God, what are you going to do Nothing? And she's like what? She's like you haven't seen your dad in 18 years. You're going to let him walk out of here. I was like, yeah, that's the plan.
Speaker 2:And welcome to this episode of the whole parent podcast. My name is John, I am the host of the whole parent podcast and I am at whole parent on all of the social media platforms. I am just going to give you one quick note here before we begin this very long episode. With Larry Hagger of the dad edge podcast. He shares with us some really awesome stories, including his journey to becoming a more effective whole parent. If you have followed his podcast yet, he has a lot of amazing guests on, including me coming up pretty soon. So that's going to be exciting to be on somebody else's podcast for a change.
Speaker 2:But my quick note to you before we dive in, like I said, to this kind of extended long episode is to let you know that if you have not gone ahead and written a review and rated this podcast yet on Spotify or Apple podcasts, you have an opportunity to do that. The last time I checked, which was, I think, yesterday, we had 99 reviews on Apple podcasts, which is by far our most listened to station. So all of you Spotify users out there, that just means that you have to get your Spotify user friends to start to listen to our podcast on Spotify so you guys can start to catch up. We can gamify this little bit, see if you guys can catch up to the Apple users, but the Apple podcast group has had 99 reviews on Apple podcasts and so if you want to be the 100th of you, you got to go right now and review it. I got sick kids and so I'm going to sign off right now and I'll be back at the very end of the episode just to let you know how you can continue to support whole parent.
Speaker 2:Without further ado, let's talk to Larry. Hello, whole parent podcast. Welcome to the dad edge host, larry Hagner. Larry, how you doing today?
Speaker 1:I'm doing great man. I'm just actually lowering my desk as we, as we get started here. So if you see me, you know going down the elevator. That's why so screen.
Speaker 2:You know I don't have a desk that goes up and down, but is this something that you recommend for parents?
Speaker 1:I mean I like it just because, like I can't sit all day, you know, I just I have to get up, I have to stand, I have to move around.
Speaker 2:You know, just got to do it that way, I feel like I feel like that's just like a you know, low key in the first 30 seconds of our conversation. What a great parenting tip. Like kids, a lot of times I feel like the behaviors that come out of kids that are somewhat problematic, that parents are contacting me on social media or whatever asking me fix this, do this, how do I fix a lot of that's just like, man, just get your kids up. They can't bounce off the walls if there are no walls. You know what I mean. So, yeah, I hear you. I'm also that way. I just stand up and pace whenever I'm not on a podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear you, man, I'm actually going to stand back up again because I can't sit and do podcasting. I'm just, I thought I would, but I'm not. I'm not going to do that, so I get it. Hopefully we're not interrupting your, your recording, but you know, hey, maybe this is, maybe this is a way to, you know, help get parents up and around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're listening to this, sitting down and you're not driving right now, stand up, stand up move around.
Speaker 2:You're going to be a better parent as a result. That's right. Yeah, you know I can't. You know, one of my I'm I'm I don't talk about this a lot on the pod, but I'm also my, my day job as it is as a pastor. And as a pastor, yeah, yeah, and as a pastor, I preach 50 weeks out of the year, 40, 45 weeks out of the year, and I had a situation really early on where I sliced open my knee trying to move a chair on a Saturday night. So, yeah, like had to go to the hospital.
Speaker 2:That chair that chair went straight in the dumpster. Man. We had just gotten new carpet. I was like my wife was like you're neat. My wife's an ER nurse, so she's like you're knee and I'm like the carpet.
Speaker 2:Sounds right Sounds accurate. So so we, like you know, I had to sit and preach on this stool because I couldn't like wander around. The stitches were like less than 12 hours old and so I had to like sit and preach and it was the most absolutely antagonizing thing. That like just to sit in one place and talk, was often for me back then. I can imagine these days these days I'm a little better, a little better at it, but hey, I would love. Yeah, so so you said it sounds right. You're kind of giving some window into who you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I'd love to hear from your voice.
Speaker 1:Sure, so I am the father of four boys. And the interesting thing about you know you talk about your knee and the stitches and all that like I literally just put out a post this morning with all four of my boys on top of me and it was like 400 pounds, like literally on me, and so I've got, you know, a 17 year old, a 16 year old, a 10 year old, then an eight year old, and the 16 year old weighs more than I do. Now he's almost, he's, he's getting to almost 200 pounds. I'm about 180. And yeah, but father of four boys, and I was joking in the post that that we should probably at this point, like have a punch card for like a frequent, you know visit to urgent care, like every 10th you know visit that we get. We should get free, so but uh, so I'm the father of four boys.
Speaker 1:I never thought I'd say that. I never thought I would say that I'm the father of four boys. I mean I expected, you know, like 10, 15 years ago that I would have two kids and that would be enough for me, it would be enough energy for me, as much as I could handle from like a bandwidth, from a financial aspect. And like if you would have asked me, you know, 20 years ago, would you have four boys? I would. I would have laughed, I would have absolutely laughed at you. I would have been like there's, there's no possible way. I've been married to my wife now, for this will be 21 years this year which is which blows my mind.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man. I met her. I met her in college when she was 18. Uh and man, she just captured my heart and I knew she was like a total keeper. And thank God she's a patient and forgiving woman, because otherwise we would not be married today, because I was just a, an idiot and for for the majority of our relationship, at least the first half, it wasn't until I started doing this work that I really started to turn things around and work on myself and really there was a ton that I learned, that there was just revealed, you know, just in learning that, um, things that we think you know should be norms, or things that we that trip us up in relationships that, quite frankly, if you learn them, you know you can, you can get in front of them much faster.
Speaker 1:It's just like anything else. Like you're a pastor and, to be honest, like as much as I love speaking I'm, I'm not qualified to to, to preach the gospel, like I just don't know it, my knowledge of it is not, is not good enough. But you know, if I dedicated several, you know, hours and years of my life to that, I could, I could learn it, I could do it right. And marriage, communication connection. Man, it's really no different that if, if you're willing to learn it, you know, if you're willing to give yourself, you know, a chance to set the ego aside and learn a few new things, it's, it's amazing what slight tweaks and little skills will do, you know, in the relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's such a good word and I feel like, yeah, it's, it's like that with anything right. That doesn't just have to be ministry, it's, it's any vocational profession where if you don't put, if you don't put in the work, you're not going to have the, the, the baseline ability. And I feel like there's still an imposter syndrome, of course, with everything right. But but at the same time there's also this amazing aspect of when you really start to see the dividends pay off. It's, it's transformative.
Speaker 2:And I feel like people don't. People understand that in vocational things, like they understand that as an accountant, you have to, like, go and take the classes and get your CPA and if you don't, you're not going to be qualified to do that work. They understand that if you're going to be a lawyer, you have to pass the bar. If you're going to be a doctor, you have to go to medical school. What they don't, I think, often realize is that your job, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, is being a parent and, in our cases, also a husband, and so I think that people just don't, they don't do any education on that and then they just expect that you know, hey, I'm just going to be able to to do it, and I think a lot of it comes from the fact that all of us were raised at some point like we had I'm not not everybody had parents, but but everybody had to some, to some aspect, someone who brought them up. And so I'd love to just kind of ask you about that.
Speaker 2:You know what was your child? Because you said that you were kind of a schmuck in the first half of your marriage. What was your childhood like? What was what was growing up like, and how does that affect you today? How much of that stuff have you had to deconstruct? How much of it have you learned to lean on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's taken a ton of work and I'll share with you my background and my story and, by the way, it's no excuse for for not being able to navigate relationships. Well, like, I mean, I will tell you. I mean I say I say this a lot, you know when, in the statement that I'm about ready to say, and that is, you know, I really, really, truly buy into this statement, and the statement is this that if you were not taught how to navigate a relationship through communication, through connection, empathy and all of these things that make our marriages work, the connection with our kids work, all of these things, you know what? It's not your fault Because, quite frankly, if you really look at most men and most husbands, and even women too, I mean there isn't really a time or a parent or someone who pulled you aside and said son, today I'm going to start teaching you how to love your future wife intentionally, or how to love a woman that you're dating intentionally. I'm also going to teach you how to communicate with her right Effectively. I'm also going to teach you that the woman that you're dating, or the woman that you're going to marry, she has three basic needs when it comes to the relationship and that's feel seen, to feel heard and to feel safe. And if you can fulfill those needs, she is going to feel very fulfilled and most, most, most, most of the time she's going to reciprocate. True, right, we're not taught these things and our dads never sit down with us, our moms never sit down with us because they don't know. They don't know what they didn't know, right, they're winging it, just like we are.
Speaker 1:I truly think that the profession that has the most knowledge when it comes to relationship dynamics is a psychologist, right, or a psychiatrist or someone who has that knowledge, licensed family therapist, everything else Like if you're a cop, you're taught to be a cop. If you're a firefighter, you're taught to be a firefighter. If you're a MMA fighter in the UFC, that's what you're taught, right? So it's not your fault necessarily that you, if you don't know what to do. Here's the tough love, though. It is your responsibility to learn it if you so choose. And that last part, you know we were all given free will. You know that, as a pastor, we're all given free will. You have the opportunity. And now, in this age, in this period of time, we have a window to the world and by a click of a button, we can actually learn anything that we want. Right, you can. You can, literally.
Speaker 1:If you have no idea how to fix your hot water heater, there's a YouTube video for that. Yep, right, if you don't know how to build intimacy with your wife, there are countless coaches. There are courses, there are books, there are podcasts just by a click of a button. You know, when you and I were growing up I'm not sure how old you are, but you had to go, like, look in the yellow pages for someone to help you out. Right, you know, grab the phone off the wall and call somebody and hopefully that person could help. Not anymore, all you need is a click of a button.
Speaker 1:So I share that with you, and I'm happy to share my childhood, because I think my childhood did play a huge part in this. But here's what I'll tell you. You know my childhood, I, I. It sounds like a pity party, but it's not. I'm actually extremely grateful for my back, for my childhood. It wasn't always so. I mean, I played the victim card, like in my twenties and thirties, and but now I'm just like man. What an amazing education that I, that I had, right.
Speaker 1:So my mom and biological father were married in, I think, in 1971. I mean, they were just kids, like they were 21 years old, and then they had me four years later, in 75, and my dad left shortly thereafter, not necessarily on his own accord or anything like that, but he left because him and my mom just had a really tough marriage and they did not get along and they were doing what everybody was doing they're like winging it, they're like we'll figure it out, I guess, and they weren't figuring it out. And you know, I think that there was a lot of stress in the relationship. My father was in the military. I think he saw a lot of things in the military. My mom, you know, had her own traumas to deal with. They were moving all around because my dad was in the military, so they were moving a lot. Then they had me and then that was it, you know, and then he was out after that.
Speaker 1:And the interesting thing is is that my dad left and at that moment in his life, you know, you could look at that on paper and be like man, like the guy, like freaking, walked, like what the hell. My dad, though, in his mind, at that point in his life, he actually thought he was actually doing the most selfless thing, because he actually thought that he was making things worse by being around and trying to, like you know, visit me on the weekends. And he's like man, I come to pick you up and you just cry. You didn't want to be around me. You want to be around your mom and like I literally thought, like I was a kid, like I literally thought like, oh my god, like I'm literally like wrecking my son's life by doing this. So my mom, right around the age of four.
Speaker 1:This is when I remember, like the audio and the video, like the camera being turned on in our mind, right memories. I remember man brain being in preschool and I remember dads coming to pick up their kids from school. I knew what a dad was. I knew I didn't have one, but it didn't really bother me, like I didn't really care, like I didn't have pity about it, I just knew we didn't have one. But in my mind, my mom Hasn't found our dad yet. Like that's literally how I thought mom's mom's got and find dads at some point and she didn't find ours yet. She'll find them.
Speaker 1:So I'm four years old, my mom's like hey, this was like a Friday or Saturday. She's like, hey, I'm having a friend over for dinner tonight. He's like a really special friend of mine and I work with him and I've been talking to him a lot. I'm gonna have more for dinner and I want you to meet him. That was her way of saying I've been dating somebody I work with, yep, and I was like, oh my god, I heard the word him, right.
Speaker 1:So in my mind I was like, could that be the dad, right? Is that the dad? So this guy comes walking in my house and he's in a three-piece suit. He's a white collar data software engineer trench coat, double winds of tie, briefcase, handlebar Mustache, feathered hair, total 1970s. Look right, he comes walking in. He shakes my hand. He's like Larry, I'm Joe, it's nice to meet you. And I shook his hand and I just remember, like looking up at this guy and I first question came out is Are you gonna be my dad? Like literally just beaming right like I was like, oh my god, she found the dad.
Speaker 1:Wow, remember, like my mom, like I think she like gasped, like Like right, and he just like kind of like awkwardly laughed. But they got married like six months later, wow, and then they were. They were together until I was 10. So they were together about five and a half years and one thing I can tell you is it started off really cool. I remember when he like moved in and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is freaking, amazing man, like our family is complete. This is awesome. I have a dad, just like all my other friends do. And then it just took a turn and every year they're after that it just turned worse and worse and worse and worse alcohol outbursts, beatings, emotional abuse, physical abuse, like they would beat each other up. He would beat me up like I was just like. It was chaos, man, absolutely chaos, and it was very surreal to grow up like that. And when I was 10 they got divorced and he left. I'll never forget, like when he moved out and left for good, there was a part of me. I was like, wow, this sucks, like I don't have a dad anymore. But I'm also like super relieved at the same time and then I started asking my mom like wait a second. Like this guy came around when I was four and I knew about the birds and the bees. At this point I'm like where did I come from? And my mom then laid it on me. She's like I was actually married before and I'm like what? She's like, yeah, you got a dad out there and I was like where is he? Like what's his name? Like what does he do? Like why don't we see him? Like all these questions and my mom's like I don't know where he is. And fast forward two years later I won't get into it for the sake of time but I met my father and it was not on purpose. Hmm, he ended up living three miles from us.
Speaker 1:Wow, and that was surreal man. He was remarried, had a two-year-old son, another one on the way, and my dad man, like I just ate it up. Like I immediately started calling him dad. I want to be around him all the time. He came to my little league games. Like we saw each other at least once a week and then after like month five, it just sort of got awkward and weird. Yep, it was almost like he was stressed and overwhelmed and I didn't know what was going on. And I remember being 12 and went and I just hadn't heard from him. Wow, I picked up the phone off off my wall, right, because the 12 that's that was our landlines. I called him and I just remember asking like Is something wrong? Like if something I don't, something doesn't feel right to me. And John, I'll be honest, man, I don't remember what was said on that call, I just remember the outcome and I don't think I was too nice on that call either.
Speaker 1:After I, after where our conversation was going, and then we split after that, so he was gone again and at that point my life is a 12 year old. I felt very angry and like abandoned. You know, again I'm like this really sucks. And I was made fun of a lot too in school, like, uh, you're, you're, you don't have a daddy and all this other stuff, but your mom is dating, she's sleeping around, all this stuff. It was I was hard dude and I failed the eighth grade. I actually just I was like I'm not doing homework anymore. Not, I'm not studying for I don't care. Like that was. I think that was my way of just like rebelling, you know, and I had to do eighth grade twice and that was a huge turning point for me doing that eighth grade year twice. My mom continued to date and she got married one more time. And, uh, but all these guys that she dated, who lived with us and married, they were the same dude, yep, just abusers, hardiers, all this stuff.
Speaker 1:So then went on to college, graduated college, got a great career, highly lucrative career medical device sales right out of college and married my wife Jessica. We're off to the races, you know. We get pregnant. You know, right around the time I'm 30, things are just humming right and I'm in a coffee shop when I'm 30. This is 18 years ago and I'm there with with people I work with, were there for a meeting, and one of the women that worked with me was also one of my really good friends and she knew this story. So I'm sitting there drinking coffee, having this meeting, and I just like look up because Guy walks in the in the coffee shop. I look over and I was like that's my dad. Wow, I hadn't seen him since I was 12. That's crazy. I knew exactly who he was. Yeah, I knew exactly who he was like. He just looked a little older and Little rounder.
Speaker 2:That's it, you know, but same same look, you know how all of us get little little little rounder.
Speaker 1:Little rounder. Yeah, and I remember the girl that I was friends with, who's also my co-worker. She's like Hello, are you here? You look like you're seeing a ghost and I'm like, yeah, I was like sorry. I was like uh, you're not gonna believe this. I was like I was like my dad just walked in here and she's like what?
Speaker 1:Wow and I was like he's right over there, like 50 feet for me, a few tables over, and she's like, oh my god, what are you gonna do? And I was like, and she'd you tell she was so excited. And I was like Nothing, nothing. And she's like what? She's like you haven't seen your dad in 18 years. You gonna let him walk out of here. I was like, yeah, that's the plan. I don't have anything. I have no desire to talk to him. Um, again, it's gonna be super awkward.
Speaker 1:And without one word man, she just gets up from the table, walks right over to his table and sits down and I'm like what is she doing? What is about to happen? And then, before I knew it, my I mean dude, my brain went to scrabble the eggs and before I knew it, I could read his lips and he was like where is he? And he started like scanning the room and all of a sudden, like our eyes locked and I'm like what? What is about to happen here? And he stood up very humbly, kind of like, took this deep breath. He just walked over me very humbly and he extended his hand. He's like hey, man, like how, how are you? And I'm like Fine, how?
Speaker 2:are you?
Speaker 1:like I was. I wasn't a total jerk, but I wasn't nice and Anyway, that interaction turned into a breakfast. That breakfast turned into what is now a relationship. And one thing I can tell you is that I have very little interest in holding any grudges against my dad. I don't hold a grudge against my dad and I definitely wasn't perfect in our relationship either. Growing up and we have, we have. We've buried the past and all we're focused on is how great the future can be. I have two younger half brothers. He's still married to the same woman, has been for 45 years, wow, and things are good. That was my background. And then I think that catapulted me into that edge. But that edge actually got started. I'm happy to talk about it if you want, but that edge really got started with a super dark moment. Yeah, that happened six years later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, so you so yeah, so let's, so, let's paint the picture so that we can get into it. Because when I'm really impressed by so often not you know a couple things by your podcast, the first is how you're able to get people to open up, and it's very obvious now, sitting here with you, what how that is is that you extend vulnerability and people offer it back. I'm ready to tell you my whole life story after hearing that. Thank you for that. And I'm also married to Jessica yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm also a married to Jessica. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, who I met it. She was 16 years old when I met her, though. So, yeah, we're high school sweetheart, so, um, but but all this to say, yeah, it sounds like you. You did not have modeled for you the type of parenting that you are now exhibiting as an adult. And one of the kind of my found foundational concepts is that the two primary ways that humans learn number one we learn by what's modeled. We repeat, we enact, we mirror what is modeled to us and sounds like that's not how the data got started. And then the second way is is that we learn from our mistakes, and and you're about to talk about a dark moment Does that am I? Am I kind of connecting the dots here for you?
Speaker 1:You are, um, but I, I want to give, like, I want to give credit where credit is due. And you know, did I have, you know, really toxic father figures growing up? Sure, right, I did, but you know what? It was a great lesson, like I I mean, for a long time I really, really didn't like the fact that I had these really toxic men coming in out of my life and my mom's life. I look back on it now and I'm like what an incredible experience, what an incredible education, because I think as human beings you're right we learn from good examples and we also get to get the opportunity and I stress the word opportunity to learn from examples that aren't the best. Yep, but here's what I'll tell you. I did have a good example and he was my grandfather.
Speaker 1:Hmm, my grandfather lived one mile from our house and I think my grandfather here's the cool, my grandfather man. It almost makes me emotional talking about him because I, like, loved that man still due to this day, even though he passed away, you know, 25 years ago. But my grandfather was one of those people. He was a man's man. He was a blue collar truck driver, his hands were rough right. He did a lot of physical labor. He was always working, and what I mean always working? He pulled his weight around the house. My grandfather was not the guy that, like, put his feet up and expected everybody to do stuff for him. Sure, my grandfather was an active participant in his family and was the shining example of hard work. You always saw him out in the yard. You always saw him cutting grass. You always saw saw him cooking dinner, doing dishes. That was my grandpa. He was a workhorse. I loved seeing that example. The other thing, too, is my grandfather just had this incredible charisma about him and it wasn't fake. It was so genuine, like you could actually feel how much he was curious about you and wanted to hear about you. When he walked into a room, people, man, they just like lit up. They're like there's Roy, I love Roy. I had never once heard one bad thing about my grandfather once from one person in my entire life. If anything, they're like dude, your grandfather was the best. But here's what my grandfather taught me. My grandfather never actually said out loud I'm going to step up and I'm going to be a huge part of your life and I'm going to teach you how to be a young man. He just did it. And wherever my grandpa went, I went. I was like his shadow. I helped him in the yard. I just I didn't care what he was doing, I just wanted to be around him. I spent a ton of time over there.
Speaker 1:My grandfather was good at one thing in particular a lot of things, but one thing in particular. That man showed me what it looked like to love a wife. Right, he loved my grandmother and he was not shy to show it. Like we would be sitting there at breakfast. You could just feel the love at that table. He would reach over every chance he got. He'd grab my grandmother's hand, he'd pat her and he'd look at her and be like kind of like give her a wink. He'd be like I love you. You know that. Right, you were the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. My grandmother like just got out of bed.
Speaker 1:She's like in a robe drinking her coffee, no makeup on, and he was just like I just love you, you are the best. And he'd kiss her and he'd hug her and like, and I remember feeling it, that that environment as a kid, and I felt so safe being there. I loved being there and what I can tell you is that's the way I love my Jessica. Yeah, I'm not perfect, but that is what I'm. I'm always like what would my grandpa do? Right? And I'm always like, like it's funny with my boys, man, Like I'm very purposeful and intentional about and I'll look at Jessica and I'll be like boys and I'll be like you know what? And they'd be like we know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:But, uh, but here's what I'll tell you. The dark moment, right, yeah, um, the dark moment that happened. What I'm? I'm? I'm so ashamed of this because I made three promises to myself as when I got married. Number one I'll be married one time. I just want to be married once because I remember, is revolving door of men constantly Right. Oh my God, ethan, I'm sitting here recording this. I have my oldest son out here. He's laughing in a text message just popped up as a recording. He's like yes, I know you love mom, we all know you love mom.
Speaker 2:I can go right from in here, so that's great.
Speaker 1:You thought I loved you, man. Oh my God, that's hilarious.
Speaker 2:We have one of those in our family too. It's, it's do. I asked my kids. So it's with my kids, it's not with my, it's not with my wife. I got to start doing this with my wife too, but with my kids. I go hey, guess what? And they know that I'm going to reply I love you. And so my little ones, my three year old, my two year old, they're like, they're totally like. They're still the age where they just like what Every time?
Speaker 1:and I can get my seven year olds like stop it dad.
Speaker 2:Every immediately, like as soon as that happens. So I'm, I'm right with you, ethan, where I know he probably can't hear me, but, ethan, I'm, I'm, I'm there, I got you Ethan, he understands.
Speaker 1:That's what he said. He's laughing out there, love it, Um. But yeah, man, I I actually take that like it's funny, like with your, your kids, right. I took that as a compliment and be like, yeah, I know it's annoying, I'm going to keep doing it Totally, totally, and in the back of my mind I don't say this to them, but I'm like you will really appreciate this over, when you're older and not right now, and that's okay, and I'm okay with you giving me all the grief you want, but like I'm just going to do this or keep doing this, and the more you antagonize me and more of my, do it comes in trends Like right, so like when you were saying like the videotape, you, you start remembering your childhood at a certain point.
Speaker 2:That's when, when memories become extrinsic, we can really, like identify them. This is what happened, and so you have that dissonance in your past where you have this is what love looked like, this is what toxic relationships looked like, and. But you have that extrinsic memory, but you also have the intrinsic, which is like you just know what it feels like to be around people who love, and I feel like that's. I feel like that's what I'm trying to do, right, I'm just trying to build that intrinsic, not even the extrinsic that they'll remember that this happened, just that, although they will, as Ethan just demonstrated for us. Of course they will remember, but but, just the intrinsic of like man.
Speaker 2:I just remember like being around people who loved me and I remember being around people who love my mom and I feel like that's really, really important. So I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So your dark moment. You said three things you're ashamed of. The first one was that you were going to be married once. What was the next one?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the first, first, yeah, first promise was I'll be married once, yep. Second promise is I, I'm going to be a good dad. Yep, Cause I, cause I know what it's like to not have a good dad.
Speaker 1:Right. And then the third one is I'm never going to hit my children out of anger. I broke two out of three cause I'm still married, but here's what I'll tell you. So, like I wasn't the best father, like here's the thing, I wasn't a bad father, okay, but I wasn't a good one. I was like literally stuck in that middle road of, I would just say, limbo and like existing Sure, right, I was there, but I didn't. Here's a perfect example. You're a football game. I wasn't on the field playing like an all star, but I wasn't in the in the bleachers either. I wasn't in in the in the audience, I wasn't the crowd.
Speaker 2:I was on the bench. You're coasting on that pine, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's why.
Speaker 2:I lived my athletic career, my man yeah.
Speaker 1:It's so funny you say that is, um, my boys uh, few of them are wrestlers and I wrestled growing up and like they. It's funny, like they kind of like view you as a dad, like, oh, you probably, like, probably just dominate. No, I was like uh, I know the ceilings of more gymnasiums in our area than you can possibly ask Cause?
Speaker 2:I spent most of my time in my wrestling on my back my first year Right. Um, I feel like that's that's a that's a form of experience too, though.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know, I I got recruited to play volleyball um at the collegiate level and and I I was on scholarship, like the whole thing. And like a week before the season started, I was going to be competing for the starting spot on this team that I was on. The week before the season started, this total party kid from from another school who was friends with like the best player on our team from high school. He decided, like I'll, I'll like, I'll like stop drinking during season or I'll just drink less during season and I'll come to this like po dunk school and I'll just like play. And he was my position, my friend, I never, never saw the court.
Speaker 2:This kid showed up five days before the first match and I never, just I watched. I watched a lot of volleyball and I served a couple of times, but that was it. And I think that's a formative experience, right, fit, like, like that's a good thing, but okay, but we're off track, so okay. So tell me. So you said that, these, these two things, you promised yourself you'd be a good dad, but you also promised yourself that you would never hit your kids out of anger. And I want to hear about I want to hear about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, uh, again, I was a medical device sales and I'll give some context, just because and I share this context, not because it's an excuse to to behave badly, it's just. I think it's. It's a walk in every, every man's life. Whenever we lose our patients get angry, we get triggered. Very rarely does it have anything to do, very little to do with what just happened in front of you. It usually has to do with the 10 things, 20 things, that happened right before that Yep.
Speaker 1:So, um, at this point in my life, I'm our, you know, six years into being a dad. My oldest, Ethan, who was just in the other room, he's six. His younger brother, Mason, who's now pushing 200 pounds. I wouldn't mess with him now. Oh my God, he would absolutely decimate me. He's the center on this football team and he hits the hardest of any player. So I I don't mess with him, but he was four and that day, uh, and there's a lot of things that led up to this event, Like I was already frustrated with me and Jessica's relationship, and I was frustrated not with her, but because I was just like, God bless, I don't know what to do and I kept felt like I felt. I felt like I kept falling on my face. Man.
Speaker 1:I just could not communicate with her, like I wasn't getting the connection I wanted with her. I wasn't getting the sex that I wanted with her. I wasn't like all these things that I wanted. I was just like I don't know how to do this. And she was getting frustrated too. Sure, it was like she was speaking French and I was speaking Chinese. That's what the relationship kind of felt like and we're trying to navigate that. And so I was frustrated there.
Speaker 1:And then I was also the sole provider and I still am and so I felt like that tremendous pressure you know, to provide right I'm, I'm the one paying the bills here. Like holy crap, when you're a young dad man, that's stressful. And that day I lost my biggest customer in my territory and I was and it made up like 40% of my territory revenue, like gross revenue that I was paid a percentage on. And I was like, oh my gosh, like number one, I'm going to get fired. I just lost my biggest customer to my competitor, like how do I explain that to my boss? Number two, even if I keep my job, like my income is severely impacted. And now I'm sitting there thinking like, oh my God, I might be out of a job, and then we're getting ready to move on top of it. So I'm like, oh my God, I might be jobless or it's going to impact my income. Can we buy this next house?
Speaker 1:And I'm packing up all the boys playroom that night and I'm just pissed out of my mind. Hadn't really told Jessica to buy it yet. I was trying to figure out like how to lay that one on her and I'm like packing up all their stuff, like their toys, in their playroom. I'm just pissed. And then I spent like three and a half hours packing up that playroom and then all of a sudden, little four year old Mason comes down and he's like hey dad, and I'm like, and I'm like I'm going to go take a break. I was like I just packed up all these toys. I was like there's still some toys out here. You can play with these. Please don't want to unpack anything. And he's like Okay, and I look back on that and every time I tell this story I probably told it a thousand times I'm like what? Like, what were you thinking, man? Like, come on, like, what is a four year old going to do? Right? So I come back downstairs like 30 minutes later he's got so much crap pulled out, like everything. I just and I just reacted and I was like dude, I told you not to do that.
Speaker 1:And I turn them around and I smack them on his butt, spank them and as soon as I like wound up, I like, I'm like I don't want to die, I don't want to do it. It was almost like it happened in slow motion. I don't want to do this, but it's reactive, it's almost like I saw myself do it. And here's the that's not the worst part. Like I'm not here to argue whether the spanking is right or wrong, because there are people out there who believe what they believe. I just didn't want to do it.
Speaker 1:But when I hit him, he lost his footing and he fell. And to see my four year old topple over because of me, I was like oh my God, what did I just do? And then I was just. I immediately got my composure and I went to go.
Speaker 1:This is the worst part. I went to go help him up and he turns over and he sees me with my hands out like oh my God, I'm so sorry. And he literally was like don't, don't know. And I was like this absolute fear I can never erase that out of my mind as long as I live. And I went to pick him up and he's crying and I'm like, and that's when I think I would just like literally hit rock bottom. And I was like that's it, I'm done, man, I'm done doing this guesswork. And I went into my office crying and I started just thinking and I was like I suck at this, I suck at this and I don't wanna suck at this.
Speaker 1:And I really just started looking at other areas of my life. Like I got a four year degree in sports medicine with a minor in nutrition. I can tell you everything there's to know about the body, about exercise, nutrition, the whole nine yards. But why is that? It's cause I learned it Same thing with my job. I was actually even though I lost my number one customer. I was a performer and I was an executor. I did very well in my sales career. But it was also cause I was trained in it. At that point in my life I was in my about my 10th year of martial arts and I loved it. I'm like, and I was decent at it. I was like why am I good at martial arts? I have a coach, I have a community. I have a curriculum, like I have these things that I'm I don't guess, I know what to do and I was like what have I done to be a better dad?
Speaker 1:What have I done to be a better husband?
Speaker 2:Nothing zero zilch.
Speaker 1:And I was like, well, do the same rules apply? And then I was like, I don't know, let me go see. And that has been my 12 year journey now is do the same rules apply? And turns out they do. So if you, if you learn these things, if you learn the skills to be a better father and a better husband, the tactical things that we can do you can actually execute a plan pretty darn well, Versus trying to just blindly guess which, by the way, the last thing I'll say is guessing sucks. It's very frustrating.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that I think that's you know, that's a transformative story. Thank you for sharing that. You know, and you know, as far as our podcast, my podcast is concerned, I'm a huge advocate for essentially punishment, free parenting, right, which just looks at, hey, there's a better way to discipline kids than punitive measures, and so I, you know it alienates people sometimes, but I'm a very strong like, no, no corporal punishment in any context type of parent and parent educator. But I also appreciate that very few people that I have worked with go into that and they're much more like how you experienced it, which is this is a moment when I lost control. It was not a calculated when it's a calculated thing and it's, you know, grounded in some sort of religious hierarchy or something where they say I have to do this in this way. That's actually something that is really hard to contend with for me. And then, like you said, it comes with education and then it becomes competing experts, right, so I can bring you all the psychological data related to hitting kids. But if you're gonna bring me, you know, hey, well, my religious teacher told me that I have to. That's really hard to argue with.
Speaker 2:But in most cases, what I've found is that parents who get to that point they're just like you They've lost their grip on reality for a moment, they've lost their ability to self-regulate, they've lost all the stuff. And, like you said, it's not that moment, it's the things that happened before, and I'll even say also the things that happened 20 years ago. Right, it's almost never, just the 10 minutes before. It's also. Well, I don't know how to cope with disappointment, because that was never taught to me.
Speaker 2:That's my struggle, like I don't know how to cope with disappointment, and so when disappointing things happen, I'm like man, I don't have the resources and skills to do this, and so I feel like a lot of what you've just identified for us and offered to us is the journey for so many men is that they wanna do better.
Speaker 2:They may even begin to do the research, if they're following my account, to know how to do better, but yet in those moments, they still lose it, they still get overwhelmed, they still get burned out, they still get stress exterior to them, the marriage is on the rocks, whatever, and then the kids wind up just being the ones who take the brunt of that for whatever reason. And so I'm interested to hear this also as a dad, how has that shaped the way that you view yourself as a man? Because before you've kind of identified these three rules that you had, and when you start to break your own rules, when you start to violate your own values, that can be a really transformative moment for so many people. But what about on the other side? What are some things as a dad that has just really shaped your way of understanding yourself in the world in a positive way?
Speaker 1:I don't know if I've ever heard that question, which is an incredible question. It's tricky, it is, so I want to make sure that I answer it correctly. So can you restate the question just again so I can really wrap my arms around it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what, if anything in the experience of being a dad has made you rethink in a positive light what it means to be a man, so raising boys I think another way to state this question maybe is the way that I think about it at least is to say so much of my parenting paradigm was built on getting my kids to 16, getting them to 18, getting them to 22. And well, if I get my kid into a good college, then they'll be successful. If I get my kid into their good first job, then they'll be successful. But when I actually started thinking about the long-term outcomes of parenting, which are very rarely, I think about probably one of the greatest parenting educators, if not the greatest parenting educator of all time, mr Rogers and you look at Mr Rogers' family and his kids had a rough time. I don't know if you know a lot of his story.
Speaker 1:But his kids.
Speaker 2:he raised two boys, Just like I'm raising three, you're raising four.
Speaker 2:So he raised two boys and through their college years they were just like. The New York Times is writing articles about how these kids are, just especially his, I think his oldest. It's just like a party animal. They're getting arrested for stuff, they're wrecking cars, and he's just like. I'm interested in who my kids are going to be when they're 30 and 40 and 50, not necessarily how they're going to rebel when they're 16 and 18. And so I think it shapes how we are as men when we think in those terms. But in that way, how is being a dad and looking at the outcome of fathering and fatherhood shaped? How you act, behave as a man, not just in the negative I'm doing these things and I don't like them but in the positive hey, I see that this stuff really works and this is the type of person that I want to be.
Speaker 1:That is such a good question, because usually the question that I get is it's usually vice versa how is being a better man helped you with being a father? So I love this question and here's what I'll tell you. I think we could actually answer this question several different ways. So being a dad has by far been the best and hardest lessons on life, and I'll share with you why. If I really look at what it's like to, if I want to be a better husband and father, I need to be a better man. I honestly think that needs to be the base. I can't be a better dad without first trying to be a better man. I can't be a better husband without first being a better man. But the question that you really rose up here was well, how do we flip that script and how does the dad and the husband thing actually help us as men? So I'll share with you this as a man, there's a resilience factor, and as a dad, there's a resilience factor, right, if you ever really wanna crash course on resiliency, patience, empathy, grace, creating an environment of psychological safety where not only your kids or your wife are gonna tell you anything that's on their mind, but also people in general and people in your friendship circle and relationships that you have. Go be a dad, go be a husband, right. So like and here's what I'll tell you I truly view myself as a father to my children, right, and in a lot of cases, like I have to, depending on the age right.
Speaker 1:Right now, I have two basically almost adults, and then I have two little kids. So when I have my 10 and eight year old, there are times where I gotta pull the dad card right. I'm like, hey, this is what we're doing right and this is why and you stepped out of line. So there's gonna be some consequences and discipline and all that. What I've noticed with my teenagers because I raised them virtually the same. My house is not an easy house, let me get that straight. It's not an easy house Like. There's, no, there's very little coddling here. There's very little like. Let me just tell you, like you know, there are hard lessons that these boys learn right, but the way that I view my older kids is that I'm a guide, Right, and I'm a trusted advisor that they can bounce things off of right. I'll give you a great example. So last night, my son is literally 32 days from being 18 years old and he, he's like we talked about it last night he's like I'm a month from being an adult and I can make my own decisions.
Speaker 1:I was like, to some degree, to some degree from the law you can, but when you, you still have. You're in your junior year of high school, you still have another year here year and a half and there are rules, whether you're an adult or not, that you have to follow to live here, right? So what I'll tell you is is there are going to be rules, still right, if you're living here, there's still gonna be a curfew, whether you like it or not. You can, when you move out, you can come home whenever you want, but here, you know, there's a, there's a time when you have to be home. However, here's what I will tell you. There's no topic that's off the table for discussion. So if you want something or if you have a request, bring it up, we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1:I'll give you an example, right, my last night he was just like I want a motorcycle. And I was like first of all, if you want a motorcycle, I will never help you buy that. Second of all, if you're living under my roof, you're not gonna have a motorcycle period, and I was like, even if one of your friends who came from a broken home was staying in our house, that would be a rule, right? No motorcycle, and. But he really wants a tattoo. Right now. He's like die hard on a tattoo. I was like you know what, you're gonna be 18. So have a conversation. You can get a tattoo. Like that's. That's a conversation.
Speaker 1:I was like, but here's what I'll share with you. Before he just run out and get a tattoo, what would it look like for us to talk about? You know certain things that you might not be aware of. And he's like like what I was like? Well, I was like, for instance, once you choose a tattoo, think of it this way when I'm 50 years old, is this still meaningful to me? Am I still proud to have it? Right? And like and the other thing, too, is where you put it on your body.
Speaker 1:I was like that is a huge one as well. I was like cause he wants one on his forearm. I was like you have to understand that. You know you're gonna be wearing short sleeved shirts, right, and if you want to do that, that's fine, but also think through.
Speaker 1:I can't really hide this. It's gonna be out in the open and do I want other people seeing it? Maybe I'm in a professional setting, maybe I'm dating a girl and I don't want her dad to see it. You know right away cause I don't want him to get the wrong impression of me All these different things that, whether they're true or not, you don't have. You need to have somebody to bounce those things off of and to be on the lookout with you. So if you want a tattoo, that's fine, but let's have a conversation around. You know what that looks like for you and your ideal tattoo and the ideal place that you want on it, versus just running out and getting it cause you think it looks cool right now I'm pretty sure he wants to get the dad edge logo like tattoo right here big so that he can see it.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that that's so helpful and this is something I write about in the book is the concept of boundaries and how you, you have to have boundaries for kids. It's how they're secure, it's how they're safe, like you can't, like there's there is this? The reason why I never use the term gentle parenting and related to my account is because there's no definition for it. And so, even if I'm practicing psychologically healthy parenting and, you know, affective parenting, I don't do a lot of coddling either, but I'm absolutely emotionally responsive and, you know, I validate experiences even when I don't understand them. And so all of those things like there are still boundaries, and one of the things that I struggle with is that so many parenting educators are you know, I shouldn't even call them educators just random people who, like this is how I parent my kids, you know, like, get ready for the day with us. This seems like there's no boundaries whatsoever. There's no, there's no guides, there's no rails, right, it's like there's no bumpers, and so, you know, I think that that's massively important, but also having the respect for your kids that those boundaries will change and that you know, I think that the struggle often that I've found in working with teenagers is that I know a lot of teenagers who are raised in highly structured homes, very religious, whatever, and what will happen is they'll be going along their life and everything.
Speaker 2:They'll have no freedom, and at 12, there's no freedom. And at 16, you know, the door gets taken off and then the phone gets taken away and I'm not saying like, in a short term, hey, we're not using this effectively or we're using this in an inappropriate way and we need to reset. I'm saying like you aren't allowed to have any relationships with people of the opposite gender. You're not allowed to, you know, go on dates in any capacity. It's like, and these parents, they build up these massive structures because they deeply, deeply distrust their kids, and then they turn 18 and they drop them, whether they go to college or whatever. The kid moves out, and then it's like breaking homage. These kids just and I hate to say it, I hate to say it, but like these kids are the ones who wind up being predatory because their whole lives they've never been trusted to set effective boundaries and so they have in their head like, oh yeah, deep down inside. And I've had these conversations with 18 year old men where I'm talking to them and they're like oh yeah, I know that I can't be out with a girl without somebody else there, because I'll just take advantage of her. And I'm like, who taught you that? Who explained, you know, is that that's not the home that you came up? And I know your parents that's not. I guess I don't sometimes, but that's not their relationship.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, but that's the story I've been told about myself and so you know, I think that that's such a beautiful thing of having those hard and fast rules. For us it's actually playing tackle football, and that's just because of my own past trauma. I have a friend who had CTE and committed suicide and so because of that, yeah, yeah, 23 or 24 years old, and so because of that, you know, for me, and it was like trauma that happened seventh and eighth grade, and so because of that, that's a hard rule for me. But it's not to say that that's I look down on people who let their kids play football in any way. Just, I just know that I could never feel safe and my kids might come back and say, but I really wanna do this, and that would probably be a conversation, but ultimately it may still come down to, but for me this is just a non-starter. I'll do anything else. I'll buy you all your hockey gear and get up at five in the morning, we'll go play hockey, but it's not about you know, I'm afraid of physical sports. It's in this one place until I feel confident that there are safety measures in place.
Speaker 2:I also, my dad, ran a sports equipment company when I was growing up, and so I watched the helmet tests and I knew how not good they really were unless those helmets were perfectly fitted, and so how ineffective the helmets were when they weren't just absolutely perfect.
Speaker 2:And so because of that, I just I have that boundary, and I think a lot of parents you know. Riding a bike without a helmet is another one. For me, that's just a boundary, man, like we're never doing that in my house, like you're never getting out there and getting on your bike without it. Now, if you wear a helmet, I'll let you ride in the rain, I'll let you ride across the street. Once you've demonstrated some aptitude for being able to know when cars are coming and crossing at crosswalks, I'll let you do all of this stuff. But it's gonna be with a helmet and I feel like that. What you're describing is that but for teenagers, and so to hear that is really, really helpful. To just know that that's a continuing process, even with an 18 year old, yeah, so it's unreal man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I imagine that you know you're saying this stuff from you probably never thought you'd be on a podcast talking about how to raise an 18, soon to be 31 days, 32 days away from being an 18 year old. So you know that's another aspect. But going back to when your kids were little, so I imagine that there's been a lot of deconstruction, masculinity we're talking about raising boys. What's one old school rule that we were raised with or that you were raised with about boys that you would love to see? Like if we just as a culture, put that to bed, like we don't say that anymore, we don't abide by that anymore. We're done raising boys who believe, or we're done saying to our boys as they're growing up XYZ, what would that be? Man, you really want me to get on a soapbox? Huh, I'm trying, man. I'm trying to push you up there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the question was what are some old school things that we have to do away with raising young men, right? So here's what I'll tell you. There's a time for tough love, right. There's a time for suck it up, buttercup, but it is like 1% of the time in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Like. So, for instance, my stepfather, the one that my mom was with from time I was four to six, I couldn't cry Like he was, like only babies cry. Wipe your damn tears off your face, man up. That's what I was told, right, and that's what a lot of young men are told. Now here's what I'll tell you.
Speaker 1:You can raise a physically and mentally and emotionally resilient young man by not doing those things. And let me share with you some things that I've learned, and I've had to actually I've had to learn them the hard way, right, if you really want to frustrate a man, right, if you really want to anger a man, then rob him of the opportunity to learn emotional IQ. Yep, because nothing will frustrate a man more than he's pissed off and he doesn't understand why. Like, are you upset? Like, how many times have you seen grown men, including myself? Why are you so angry? I don't know. I'm just pissed at what this happened. Why did that piss you off? I don't know, it just did right. So, when you can take a small human being, right, well, boy or girl, but we're talking about boys and you can teach them what an emotion is and, I'm sorry to say, like, whether you're raising boys or not, young men or not, emotions are human, yep, and emotions are part of the human experience. Sadness, overwhelm, exhaustion, depression, anxiety, right, anger, fear these are human emotions and it's part of our human experience. The more you try to push those things down and not feel them, the more someone wants to not feel those things because they don't think it's normal or they think it's weak. And then they want to drink it away, smoke it away, watch porn or whatever they're doing right. So like when you do that. But when you teach a young man how you feel, tell me what's going on and they share with you what's going on and you can help that young man, label what he might be, what he might be feeling. I do this all the time.
Speaker 1:So with my boys, if my son comes home, perfect example One of my boys, my oldest, just got friendzoned by a girl that he really liked rough. He was devastated. Yeah, he was. He took her out on a day, some Valentine's Day, took her out on a date and then after the date she was like we're gonna be friends and my son was upset. He was very upset and there's a part of me as a dad now that I've. You know, I'm years ahead of him. I'm like I'm like, dude, don't worry about it, man. Like come on, like there are so many fish in the sea, like you'll find another one, it's not that big of a deal, no, no, no, no. I remember what it was like to be friendzone. It's soft.
Speaker 1:And when he came home I was like oh, dude, that sounds overwhelming. Man, that's that sounds like, that sounds hurtful. Right and man to man. Those words don't usually come to the surface and when I, when I, when I say those things, he can validate yes or no. That's what I'm feeling. And when you validate somebody else's emotion, you're actually teaching them. You're actually me hogging them right, if you know that term right. You're actually he's teaching Daniel Son how to wax the cars and all that. He's actually teaching him how to fight. You're actually teaching that, that young man, how to identify that emotion and then what to do with it. Yep, so like, for instance, when I'm like, oh, dude, that sounds heartbreaking, that sounds overwhelming, that sounds hurtful. He's like yeah, it is. And I'm like, of course it is Like what? Why wouldn't it be Normalizing it, not only labeling it, but then normalizing it? Because a lot of times when we feel hurt or we feel upset, we don't feel like it's normal.
Speaker 1:We literally feel like I'm the only one that probably feels this way and I'm weak because I feel it and as soon as we say, man, I remember that feeling and I remember how bad it hurt dude, I really do, and Anybody who gets friendzoned with anyone that they like that hurts and it sucks and it's thousand percent normal to be upset about it. Yep, and To explore, like those feelings. Once you normalize that, and then he can be like, yeah, I do feel hurt, yeah, I do feel overwhelmed, yeah, but the coolest, I've done that with all the boys their whole life. Well, here's what I can tell you I love the fact that I can have a conversation with my kids, with my young, my young boys, my 16, my 18 year old, and they will actually tell me, like I couldn't do this as a teenager, but they can. Like, dad, I'm really angry today.
Speaker 1:Hmm, I call it, tell me about it, what's going on, and you, and anger is a secondary emotion. And I even tell them this like, well, anger is a secondary emotion based on usually a primary, but like so why are you angry? Let's talk about that and they'll tell me, you know, and I'll say so, you're angry Because you're actually perhaps fearful or disappointed. Yeah, that's it. Disappointed, right, or sad, right, or something like that. Yeah, and it's really helping them connect the dots with what they're feeling. When you can do that, you're actually raising a young man who is a motion, who has high emotional IQ, that has higher emotional resiliency. It's probably less likely to get into drugs, alcohol, something to bury that feeling. Yep, because they know how to face it head on by giving them those tools. So, like in my house, if you want to cry, cry I mean Real. If you want to be mad, be mad.
Speaker 2:Men feel feelings and, and I feel like this, I feel like this you know, everything that you're saying here is really reminiscent of Mark Brackett at Yale Center for emotional intelligence. He has this, this acronym ruler, that's. You know, you recognize, you understand, you label, yeah, name it right, as you've said. I'm forgetting the e, the e1, right now, but then you regulate right eventually.
Speaker 2:Oh you express and then you regulate, and so, actually, going through that, what they found is is exactly what you're saying kids become adults who can express emotions and then, and then they don't Misidentify. So I would actually the only thing I would disagree with this I think anger occasionally is a primary emotion, and that's when it's a response to injustice. Right, our response to injustice is anger, and that's good and that's right and that's that's we should, that's how we should react to injustice. But so often, when we're not encouraged to feel overwhelmed, discouraged, disappointed, anxious, fearful, because all of those things are considered not man Enough, don't be afraid, real men aren't sad, real med, you know, get, get even, they don't get sad. You know, whatever, when we experience those things, they often manifest as anger, because that's the one and only emotion that men feel that they're allowed to express. You can, you can be angry, because that's culturally appropriate, and so I love what you're saying, that, if that's, you know, and I would agree wholeheartedly, that would be my.
Speaker 2:I would say that's not my number one. My number two is you know, I I'm done with bullying, I think. I think bullying is like such a I hate to say in these terms, but bullying is such a reactive, weak thing to do and you know, I think bullying wouldn't exist if we, if we had emotionally intelligent kids. But but you know, the boys will be boys and it's okay to bully each other. That that would be my thing, where I would just go like beyond an inability to feel, or when anger and aggression is the way that we act out our emotions. It's, you know, so toxic. So we're coming to the end here. Larry, I thank you so much for for your time today. I love everything you've said. Can you give us some insight into where we can find you? If people want to hear more From Larry Hagner and more from dad edge, how can we connect?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Before we head out, I Was wanting to see do you, do you want to? Just a really quick example of you know. Yes, I create space for my kids, yes, I want to give them emotional IQ, and there's also a time to be direct and I'm happy to share that and then I can tell you what I'm so I'll give you an example of being direct, right, to be more of like hey, I'm gonna create space for you, I'm gonna help you Identify your emotions.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna I'm gonna teach you about emotional IQ, and then there are times where I'm gonna be more your coach, right? So my son, like I said, my oldest son wrestles and he, he was struggling for about a month or two with with wrestling. He was losing a lot of matches, but he was, he was beaten before he even got on the map. You could see it written all over his face, you could see it in his body language. He would pace and I'd be, I'd kind of go up to him, be like you doing, okay, he's just like I'm just gonna kill them, just gonna get killed out there today, like, and it's all this stuff he's saying, right, and I remember being at a match and I'm watching his opponent watch him pace and he's nudging his buddies like I didn't know what they were saying is like that's my guy and they were like they're the guy knew he had like it was like blood in the water. He, he went out there, he lost.
Speaker 1:My son came up to me and I'm not the type of dad Necessarily all the time where it's like, oh, you just get him next time, don't worry about it. And he came off the mat and I was like permission to speak directly. I always want permission, right, I did to let him and my boys know that that's coming. And my son did an incredible emotional, resilient thing and he goes Give me a minute. And I love the fact that he just was like give me a minute. I'm like you got it. And then he came back. He's like I'm ready for it. I'm like awesome. I was like I'm gonna speak very directly. Okay, I was like you were beaten before you get out on that map. You're beaten here and you're beaten here. You are so in your head, you're not in your body and the way you're pacing your body language you get out there, the way you shake the guy's hand, he knows he's got you. It is blood in the water.
Speaker 1:I was like when you do that, you were going to lose. I was like what if you did this? Don't worry about the opponent, don't worry what he looks like, don't worry about getting beaten. Who cares what if all you focused on was getting the next point, getting the next takedown, getting the reversal, getting your back points. That's it, that's all. That's all. No matter what, win, lose, whatever, it doesn't matter, that's all.
Speaker 1:And he's like I Think I can do that and that boy, flip that switch and for the next 12 I'm sorry, 13 matches, he went 12 and 1 and I was like what was the difference? He's like I just focused on the points, that was it. But I had to be I, I had to be direct with him. So I think that there's a time to create space to be Emotional with your kids right, and by emotional I mean giving them emotional space to understand where they're at and what they're feeling. But there's also a time to be like hey, man, I'm gonna give you a little bit of tough love here, because I know you want to win, I want what's best for you and I can see some things that might be going on here. I might be able to help. So I Think that's that's what I want to share. But as far as like where to find me, it's just the dad edges everywhere your dad edge on Facebook and Instagram and the dad edge dot com.
Speaker 2:Dad edge common and and people can connect. I know you have a membership for dads, so if you're, if you're a dad on this and you're looking for ways to connect and do things like that, they can find them at the dad edge calm.
Speaker 1:Yes, awesome, the dad is awesome. Larry, it's good talking man. I can't wait to have you on my show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't wait to. Can't wait to be there. Spit some, some Parenting, neuroscience and all that other fun stuff. Yeah, thank you so much for being on here, and we'll make sure that we catch up against you.
Speaker 1:Sounds good brother.
Speaker 2:Thank you again, larry, for being willing to share your story, for being vulnerable with us today. We really really appreciated. I know I learned so much from this episode. Guys, if you like these guest episodes, please let me know if you have a question to submit for our upcoming episodes. If you didn't know this, if this is your first ever episode listening to the whole parent podcast, usually the podcast is just me. About 25% of the time I have guests, but 75% of the time the podcast is just me answering parent questions on given topics, and so if you have a question, you can always go to your email provider and shoot me an email at podcast, at whole parent Academy Dot-com that's podcast, a whole parent Academy dot-com to send me an email and, as always, please share this with all of the parents in your life. I got a sick kid next to me and so I got to go take care of him. I know that you guys have probably been there too, so until next time, this has been the whole parent podcast. I