GMT: The Podcast For Globally Minded Law Firm Leaders
GMT: The Podcast For Globally Minded Law Firm Leaders
Cross-Border Legal Expansion: Mergers, Market Shifts, and Global Strategies with Gerard Tanja (Part 1 of 2)
Welcome back to GMT! In this episode, Rob Bata and Murray Coffey sit down with trusted advisor Gerard Tanja of Venturis Partners to unpack what's really going on in the global legal market. We take a deep dive into cross-border expansion, major mergers making headlines, and why litigation boutiques are gaining traction worldwide. It is a thoughtful, candid conversation aimed at law firm leaders navigating a rapidly shifting landscape. If your firm is eyeing growth beyond borders, you will not want to miss this one.
Featured Quotes:
- Gerard Tanja: "We will see in the future—a kind of global elite type of 10 to 15 firms consisting mainly of and dominated by U.S. firms."
- Rob Bata: "What we are seeing is that disputes generally—litigation, arbitration, mediation—are becoming global. This is why litigation boutiques are becoming more international."
Main Topics Discussed:
- The big mergers that have garnered significant attention: Allen & Overy teaming up with Shearman & Sterling, and the pending Herbert Smith Freehills-Kramer Levin combination.
- How U.S. and U.K. firms are positioning themselves for European expansion—and why they are choosing certain markets over others.
- The increasing presence of Chinese and Japanese firms in Europe and what that means for regulatory dynamics.
- The rise of specialized litigation boutiques and their shift toward a global footprint.
- Why the Nordic and Benelux regions are becoming hot spots for law firm growth.
- What law firm leaders should expect in the next few years—more transatlantic mergers, aggressive European expansions, and a reshaping of the mid-market landscape.
Call to Action:
Make sure to subscribe to GMT and catch Part 2 of this conversation, where Rob and Gerard dive even deeper into what is ahead for 2025 and beyond. You can find us on all major podcast platforms—Apple Podcasts, Spotify—wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, share it with your colleagues and leave us a review!
Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com
Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net
Rob, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded law firm leaders with your host, Robert Bata, principal of Warwick place legal and Murray Coffey, principal of M Coffey, between them, Rob and Murray have about three quarters of a century's experience working with some of the most notable law firms on the planet. This podcast is designed to help those law firm leaders tasked with growth make great decisions about whether and how to implement cross border expansion for their firms and what it takes to succeed. And now. Rob Bata, well, here we are back with another edition of GMT. It's been a minute, and there's been a lot that has been going on in the global and domestic legal market in terms of mergers and tie ups and spin offs and disinvestment and reinvestment, and so we're going to cover a lot of that today, and we've got a special guest that that my colleague, Rob will introduce here in just a minute. But Rob, I want to say Hello, Happy Holidays to you and your family, and I hope the sun is shining where you are. It is it is here. Gerard, I understand it's miserable there and in your part of Europe at the moment, but Rob, hello, welcome. Great to see you, as always. How are you?
Rob Bata:Hey, I'm good. Hi, Mary. Great to see you. It's good to do this 2024 recap, and to start 2025 on a good note, on a high note, and Happy New Year to you. Happy New Year to our guest, Gerard Tanya, as you say, it's been a pretty busy year for law firms looking at their strategies, and we're going to be discussing that with our friend Gerard, who has been our guest before. Just to remind everybody, Gerard, it was a founder of heads of mentors Consulting Group, a European based consultancy that advises law firms and a lot of departments professional service organizations on their strategy, also involved in mergers and legal process outsourcing and a whole range of professional services related consulting. Her art has been in the business for quite some time. He spent a fair number of years with Clifford chance and also as a diplomat. So her art, it's a pleasure to welcome you back. We had a very good session or two with you before in 2024 and we look forward to a good discussion. Thanks, Robert. So I think to kick off, it would be a good idea to just kind of set the stage in terms of what's been going on in the world. And I guess I'll talk about that a little bit before we turn to some of the more in depth analysis. 2024 saw a number of very interesting developments. Probably the top of the heap was the merger between Alan and Sherman and Sterling. And also attracting a lot of attention is the merger, which has not yet taken place, but is due to close in, I think, May of this year, between Herbert Smith free hills, the UK Australian firm, and the New York firm Kramer. In addition to that, what we've seen is a continued interest by US and UK firms in expanding in Europe. And there are a number of reasons for that, and I'll get to that in a second last year expansion into the Middle East actually was the second most active by law firms. Normally it's Asia in 2024 lead into a discussion of what that means for international business firms generally, and what sort of strategies they might be thinking of adopting, I would just say, on the one hand, and this is nothing new. We've said this before. Alan and ovary, Sherman sterling is a major, major step. It's really the first very significant, so called Magic Circle merger into the US. It happened to work out well because the finances aligned. That's kind of a difficult thing for us, UK firms to accomplish. I would not say that the HSF, Herbert Smith and Kramer 11. Perspective combination is the same. I look at that as principally a litigation play. What I see is Kramer 11, which is a fantastic litigation capability. That's basically what they do, although they obviously have some other transactional work being acquired by another standout litigation shop, which is Herbert Smith. I think that Cramer 11 may turn out to be a very good platform for expanding HSF transactional abilities in the US, but I think that's way down the road at this point, what I'm seeing is just a very good landing for Herbert Smith and the very profitable and very active litigation market in the US,
Murray:do we wind up with sort of a global litigation? You know, play on this litigation in the United States is a major issue for us, firms and for companies coming into the US, litigation is a major headache as well. And typically you'll have litigation country specific. But are we talking about maybe looking at litigation on more of a global perspective? Yes, sure. I think we are.
Rob Bata:I think, I think we're seeing is that disputes
Gerard Tanja:Yeah, thanks, Rob, yeah. I think let's, let's focus generally, and I'm talking about disputes not just litigation, so including arbitration, mediation, all these other things, restructurings and the sorts of practices like IP and bankruptcy and so forth, which are also very heavily litigation oriented. This is global, and this is why also, I point to some of these litigation boutiques now becoming more global. The US litigation specialist Cobra and Kim has been doing this for some time. They're all over Asia and elsewhere in the Virgin Islands and the Caribbean and so forth. But what we're seeing now is firms like signature and Cellar Door legal and others are looking at exploiting litigation opportunities. And part of the reason for that is that kind of American style litigation has also made its way into Europe, and perhaps maybe expanding beyond Europe. You can certainly see that, for example, in the Netherlands, where class actions have become quite common, and firms, I think, link later, so has a specific class action defense team in Amsterdam, for that reason. And I think there's a lot of that going on. I see that Asher's, for example, just signed on on behalf of some claimants. I believe that it is, well, I don't remember, and it doesn't matter, but it was in the news today that they've signed on behalf of what I guess is potential class of claimants against the particular defendant. So we're seeing first on all the two specific issues that you mentioned, which litigation of all sorts blossoming Singapore, which I often talk about as being a very attractive destination. One of the reasons for that is not only the fact that there's tremendous amount of international arbitration, but they also have particular international commercial court that's very attractive for litigation and disputes generally. Anyway. That's that's my take about those two major transatlantic mergers. I think there will be more of that coming up, but we'll discuss that later. Gerard, what do you think about these developments, and how do they affect your thinking about is the Japanese and the Chinese firms coming to Europe. And we what the European firms are thinking about. definitely see that in Brussels, for example, where two or three Chinese firms have opened office in 2024 as some of the Japanese have done. I guess they want to be very close to the regulatory center in Europe, as it heavily affects them, also in the context of geopolitical and trade war situations developing, etc. So that's clearly a trend, and our expectation is that we will see some new entrants in this area from China and Southeast Asia. So that's certainly something I can confirm. The second thing the litigation boutiques and the expansion of us litigation firms into continental Europe, particularly in Amsterdam, is indeed linked to a very favorable mass claim legal situation in the Netherlands. I think we have five, six US firms already in Amsterdam now focusing primarily on the on the plaintiff side, of course. And you see then that not only the link laters of this world, but also the larger independent firms. So the top tier independent firms are starting to focus on the on the defense side of the mask claims. It's a very attractive and growing area. So that's certainly something that, I think, that we can confirm as to your third main topic, the Transatlantic marriages and what it means for Continental Europe. I think what we already see right now is apart from the fact that there will be similar and I I'm not sure whether it will happen in 2025 but definitely, I think in next 18 to 24 months, the ano move will have followers from some of the magic circle. It's inevitable. I think that is something that the three four magic circle firms are looking into right now. It will be difficult, though, I think, because there won't be that many suitable and appropriate candidates available. But I think it will lead to a development that we will see in the future a kind of a global elite type of 1015 firms consisting mainly and dominated, I guess, by US firms. Some will be US firms. Some will be trans the consequence of transAtlantic mergers. But I think we will see a group of 10 to 15 in the next two, three. Years evolving. What I think is most interesting and where we will see, and actually, where we already see developments, is in the group of firms, slightly below the magic circle. What we see in continental Europe is, I think, two things. One is that some of those firms, and most of them have started in 2024 and I think, reinforced by the ano Sherman and now the Herbert Smith merger, they have started with very aggressive European expansion policies and strategies which has consequences for, let's say, the upper mid market, independent national firms in several European jurisdictions. So that's one thing that we see. I'll come back to that later. I think the other thing what we see is, and we're involved in one of those projects, is that UK headquartered international firms, which traditionally have started their expansion in continental Europe, are talking about firm to firm mergers, which is something that didn't happen a couple of years ago. And my prediction is that this is actually the first step of a more aggressive global expansion strategy in that they want to first strengthen their European to slide to a certain extent, Asian and Middle East restricted presence before making the move into or having conversations with us worms. So a two step approach, that's a possibility. And then there will be, I think, a third group of firms operating in the typical mid market that will try to engage with suitable US firm somewhere. Let's say between the AMLO 100 and AMLO 200 I think that's the three type of developments that I see. But for me, the most interesting are developments. Are the first two that I describe that we see UK headquartered, international firms with a traditional, strong continental European presence, rapidly and aggressively expanding and trying to to seal a merger in the larger European jurisdictions, be it Germany, be it the Netherlands, be it France, Italy, etc, then the firm to firm, type of UK, headquartered international firms, second tier. And as I said, I think that has consequences for the mid market and upper mid market, continental European firms, because it will have a trickling down effect. And those a, there will be targets. And B, which was already happening in some jurisdictions. And B, I think the market share of those expanded international firms will have an effect on their competitive positioning. So that is once part of the story. And I think the other two, three developments that we see and whether it is influenced by those transatlantic mergers, I'm not so sure. But is, on the one hand, we see an increasing activity in the Nordics to establish a Nordic type of firm. I mean, it should have started that development a couple of years ago was met with some skepticism and cynical responses, etc, but they seem to be doing very well in Stockholm and now also in Denmark. So I think there is some merit in that strategy. And I think we will see in 2025 at least one or two similar type of developments in the Nordics. At the same time, we see Benelux developments, we see Dutch Belgian Luxembourg firms trying to integrate more. Some who have been working in this area, or in this this Benelux context, are perhaps even envisaging a the establishment of a truly European integrated firm, which is, I think, the direct response to transatlantic mergers and the growing market share of international firms in those jurisdictions. And thirdly, I think we will see a renewed interest in the Union and the advanced type of foreign structured alliances and networks, where, currently it is mainly restricted to Germany, Italy and France. And I think what those networks will try to do, what those foreigners will try to do, is to expand. Into the Nordics, into southern Europe, into the Netherlands, etc, and try to add upper mid market, general business firms to their network. So I think that's, that's what I I predict for 2025 will will happen. I'd
Rob Bata:like to follow up on one of your points. So especially in terms of the first and second scenario that you're envisioning. Is there an appetite by among the continental European firms to be acquired or to or to merge with UK firms? Are they open to that at this stage?
Gerard Tanja:I think they are open to that because they notice, I think especially the midterm firms operating in the upper mid market, they are, on the one hand, confronted with the growing market share of international competitors in an area which traditionally belonged to their typical market. And on the other hand, I think they are being affected by some of the top tier national, independent firms that are trying to secure market share now that their international conservation leads to a less of inbound referral work and taken away work from those kind of firms. So they are to a certain extent, it's in every jurisdiction you have a group of five to 10 of those upper mid market firm business firms who seem to realize increasingly that an international option for them is probably the best way to move forward. I think that we will see a couple of those firms deciding to go international in the next couple of well years.
Rob Bata:And by international you mean beyond their borders in Europe and or also joining up with the UK firm potentially, yeah, and presumably, there are US firms too that that would be interested in some of those potential mergers or acquisitions. The question is, would that be attractive? It's a different story when, when a when a US firm, comes into the mix, I would just say about that, that US has shown varying levels of interest in Europe, you know, so there's, there's a lot of in and out in Germany, and has been lately, there's been an uptick, again, an interest in Europe. But my sense is that for many US firms, Asia is the ultimately more significant target, because there's so much more to do there. And I think one of the reasons that US UK mergers are appealing potentially to US firms. And I think this was true for A and O Sherman, is that access that UK firms have done have had so much more often in Asia, partially because of the colonial history, but in many ways, these kinds of international mergers, transatlantic mergers, are seen as a way to enter or enhance your presence in Asia. That's not to say that the US firms don't want to be much bigger and and more competitive and have more market share in Europe, because they do, yeah, but, but I think Asia is one of those markets that it's hard for us firms to get into on their own, other than opening an office here and there.
Gerard Tanja:No I agree. I see a limited interest of US firms to enter some of the European markets, and the success that US firms there are exceptions, but in general, have had in the major European jurisdiction. So the places where you haven't been that great. Germany is a good example. And I would actually say that UK firms, international firms headquartered in the UK have had relatively more success than US firms entering the German, Italian or French markets,
Rob Bata:agreed? Yeah, I think, I think that's true. I've seen that clearly. There are some, you know, Mayor Brown has done very well, for example, in Germany. You know, a number of others, but, but no, it's absolutely true that that the UK firms are just, just better suited for that. A part of it is, I think, cultural, not that the UK culture is, is that similar to European, various European cultures, but I think there's more of a sense of a kind of a comfort level. Um, I would like to pick up a little bit on what you said about the Nordics, because I think it's very interesting. And also Benelux, these are all quite interesting areas, and I do see a lot of expansion of international practices into those areas. Within the Nordics, of course, as you point out, for example, Akshat and others, expanding regionally. I would. Think, and I maybe proved wrong on this, but for us, firms, that part of the world, I think, can be extremely interesting, both the Nordics and I might even add, the Baltics. Baltics are, of course, much smaller and, you know, they're in the shadow of Russia, so it's a whole different thing. But then again, these are vibrant economies and vibrant law practices, and there's a great deal of tech and so forth. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were some am law 200 firm, or am law 150 or maybe even in the 100 making a significant move in the Nordics and or Baltics, over the coming year, 18 months?
Gerard Tanja:Yeah, yeah. I agree. I mean, I say for me, the Baltics is geopolitically, currently part of of the Nordics, although they have strong links to jurisdictions like Poland, etc, but I think they are more focused currently on Finland and Sweden than than any other jurisdiction. And I think for for a US or a UK firm, and mind you, there are still several international firms trying to to enter the market in the Nordics, I think, as such, the individual practice the jurisdictions are relatively small, but taken together and following the foreign direct investment flows between those countries, I think in certain areas like energy and infra, biopharma, technology and digital, etc. I think the Nordic market is, is very, very interesting. And I think what we will see, apart from more Nordic initiatives like the shut initiatives, I think you know that that will happen and should is perfectly able to serve as the Nordics on behalf of of a US or Ricky K transatlantic firm, I think what we will see is, on the one hand, firms that have not yet established their presence in those regions, and we had the market entry of CMS in in Oslo and Stockholm, and think in the near future in Copenhagen as well. But firms like Dentons, etc, are not yet there. So I think we will see in new efforts of those firms to enter the market. What I also see in that that that is something I alluded to in my introduction. Already, there are quite a few UK headquartered international firms with very aggressive European expansion policies, and I see that in especially Stockholm, Finland, Copenhagen and Norway as well. All those firms are expanding their Nordic footprint. And yes, I think you could be right. A third development could be that there will be some US firms active in those three, four sectors, where the Nordics are particularly well positioned to enter the market in the next 18 months, I would not be surprised. Yeah,
Rob Bata:yeah. I agree with that, and I certainly agree with your point about these below magic circle, for maybe even two tiers below magic circle are UK firms having very aggressive European expend if you just look at, for example, adult Shaws or field Fisher, they've been kind of on, all on, on a real tear into Europe and and definitely, I think in both cases, there's a good deal of interest in Northern Europe. So I think you're quite right about that.
Murray:This is the end of Part One of GMTs conversation with venturis partners, Gerard Tanya, please make sure to subscribe for part two, in which we hear both Rob and Gerard provide their thoughts on what We can see in the upcoming year or so. You