From Surgery to Psych: Meg Conover's Versatile PA Career

"So You Want to Work in Healthcare" is a podcast hosted by Leigha Barbieri, designed to provide an insider's perspective on various healthcare professions. In this episode, Leigha interviews Meg Conover, a seasoned Physician Associate (PA) with 15 years of experience, currently working in internal medicine at a psychiatric hospital. Meg shares her journey from aspiring to be a doctor to becoming a PA, discussing the challenges and rewards of her diverse career path, which includes trauma surgery, urgent care, and hospitalist medicine. The episode also touches on the importance of versatility in the PA profession and the impact of social media in educating parents about child healthcare. Sponsored by InCrowd, the podcast episode aims to help listeners navigate their career choices in healthcare.

*Not Medical Advice. Our views do not reflect the views of our employers.*

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Transcript

Leigha Barbieri [0:01 - 1:46]: So you want to work in healthcare, but you're not sure where to start. I'm Leah, your host of this podcast, and I'm bringing you the inside scoop on healthcare professions, from doctors to pas to healthcare administrators and crnas. My goal is to let professionals tell their stories and give honest reviews of the careers they have chosen. So whether you're considering a job in healthcare or you simply have an interest in what we do, this show is for you. This podcast episode is sponsored by Incrowd. Incrowd is a healthcare market research organization focused on collecting feedback from diverse medical professionals on a wide range of healthcare topics through brief micro surveys. They partner with leading names in the life sciences industry and pair them with healthcare professionals who are instrumental in providing expert feedback to research. On average, most microsurveys take less than ten minutes to complete all of their micro surveys, and qualitative interviews are paid, and you can even receive partial compensation if you screen out. Take part in as many or as few surveys as you'd like. When your schedule allows, participate with your mobile phone, computer, or tablet when it is convenient for you. Research is anonymous and all information is protected by their data privacy compliance. I just took a survey yesterday. It took me about five minutes and I made $40. That's better pay than my job as a pA. Join in crowd today by clicking on the link. I'll share in this episode's show notes and earn money. Sharing your medical expertise in crowd is a brand within the Apollo intelligence family of companies. Welcome to the so you want to work in Healthcare podcast to welcome Meg Conover. She's a physician associate. She's been working as PA for 15 years, and she's currently working in internal medicine at a psych hospital. So welcome, Meg. 

Meg Conover [1:46 - 1:49]: Thank you. I am so excited we finally got to do this. 

Leigha Barbieri [1:50 - 2:03]: I know I'm ready. I'm excited. I can't wait to learn more about what you do and also talk about your social media stuff, because that's really exciting. You're growing. I feel like I've seen some growth lately. 

Meg Conover [2:04 - 2:09]: Yeah. Social media has been blowing up. We're pushing 10,000 on Instagram, so that's pretty cool. 

Leigha Barbieri [2:09 - 2:15]: It's important stuff. You're not, you know, you're not just putting out silly videos like me. You're putting out important things. 

Meg Conover [2:16 - 2:20]: Mostly. Mostly important. But the silly videos, you know, they get some views, too, so that's good. 

Leigha Barbieri [2:20 - 3:07]: Yeah. Good. Today's episode and all episodes on this podcast are not medical advice and do not reflect the views of our employers. I just want to give everybody an insight into what you do as a physician associate, as a PA. For those of you who are new to the podcast, this is what we do here. We talk about careers in healthcare to help you find out if you want to go into healthcare or if you're already in the process, maybe what field you might want to go into. Maybe you're between doctor or Pa. You're not sure if you want to go to med school or pa school. So we're here to help you kind of decide that. So, yeah, let's get into it. My first question is always, why healthcare? Like, why did you decide to do medicine? Was there one specific thing or situation that led you into healthcare? 

Meg Conover [3:07 - 4:06]: Sure. Yeah, it's a good question. I feel like I ask myself the same thing every day. Why healthcare? Why to do this? But, yeah, my parents would probably tell you as young as, like, seven years old, I was watching, like, the Discovery Channel, like, knee arthroscopies they would put on tv. There was some fascination with, like, seeing inside the body at a young age. So, you know, I considered doing PT, like physical therapy stuff, athletic training. I was an athlete. But eventually, you know, I was always planned to go to med school and wanted to be a doctor. And I was doing some PT tech work after I finished my undergrad, and the doctor advised me, whatever you do, don't become a doctor, don't go to med school. And it was an orthopedic surgeon, of course. So I was like, okay, what else do I do? What else can I do? There was a Pa that worked in the clinic. I was like, let me just gather everything up. I have about two days to take the gre, so let's just wing it and see if the grades make it in for my application. And they made it by like, a day, and I ended up getting accepted, and so I went to Pa school. 

Leigha Barbieri [4:06 - 4:09]: So, wow, so kind of a last minute decision. 

Meg Conover [4:11 - 4:34]: Yeah. I always wanted to be in healthcare in some way. I always thought I wanted to be in surgery in some way, but, you know, other factors started to play in as you get older. I wanted a family, which, you know, you can have as a female surgeon, but I didn't see it at that time. I didn't want to be in school for another ten years. I wasn't a huge fan of classroom stuff, so I really wanted to become clinical as fast as possible, and that seemed like the best way. 

Leigha Barbieri [4:34 - 5:06]: I agree, because I took a similar path, but, yeah, same. I was on the course to become a doctor always. I thought. And then once I heard about what a PA was, it was definitely very intriguing, and I'm so glad I took this route. But I like what you said. It's not impossible to have a family as a female surgeon or a female doctor. And for anyone wanting to go to med school, go for it. But it's interesting. You're the second or third person on this podcast who said that a doctor told them not to be a doctor. 

Meg Conover [5:06 - 5:48]: It's funny, you know, I still have. I have that MCAT book I was studying after work, and that's how they found out that what my plan was, and he's like, oh, no, no, no. And I thought about going back as well. I thought about going to med school. Yeah, a couple times, but it doesn't fit now, and it definitely doesn't fit financially for us now. But, you know, I could have gone either way. I think the thing I'm most grateful for that I didn't go is where I started as a pa was trauma, hand and plastic surgery. That was my passion. That was my master's focus. And now I'm internal medicine in psych, and I would have never gotten there. And I feel like I would have been burnt out of surgery as a doctor so fast because I burnt out as a PA quick, and I love surgery, but lifestyle is hard. 

Leigha Barbieri [5:49 - 6:14]: I feel you on that right now. It's really about versatility. Right? Like, I think a lot of us become pas because of the versatility, because that you don't really know what you're gonna feel like in five or ten years and. Or what's gonna happen. And it's cool to have this career where you can just pivot on the spot, like, so quickly, and it sounds like you made a big pivot. So we'll get into that a little bit. 

Meg Conover [6:14 - 6:15]: Yeah. 

Leigha Barbieri [6:15 - 6:22]: Did you go straight from undergrad, then you got your applications in. In time? You went straight from undergrad to PA school? 

Meg Conover [6:22 - 7:10]: No. So I did four year. I did a four year undergrad degree at University of Delaware. I played division one soccer. I had a blast. It was great. And I ended up with a lot of stress fractures in my feet from training. And I was like, you know, there's more to life than sports. I got to figure out what that is. And let's. Let's travel. So I did study abroad in Australia for half a year, a couple semesters, and I was like, I want to stay. So I lengthened it. So I did a full year in Australia. I could have graduated early, but I'm like, well, let's just take organic chem, keep my visa and let's stay there and then let's see what happens. So I was in Australia for my last year of undergrad. My student visa expired when I graduated and I had to come back and like kind of figure out what to do. I started doing PT tech work. I did that for a year and then I started kind of applying in the process. And that's okay, that's the gap right? 

Leigha Barbieri [7:10 - 7:41]: You said you were doing work. I wasn't sure if that was while you were in school or you already out. So that's cool. I'm jealous. I really, really wish I could have studied abroad. It's so cool that you got to do that. And I'm all for taking a year off after you graduate as well. But if you could study abroad, that's a plus. After Australia, after you took a year off and you were working in the, you said in a PT clinic you then applied to PA school. So were your hours at the PT clinic counted towards your patient care experience? 

Meg Conover [7:41 - 8:11]: Yeah, thats why I did it. I had to have like 2000 hours so that was why I did that. Thats why I had that delay too. But it counted again. It was med school. That was my plan when I started PT tech. And you needed, you know, some experience was good for that application too. So I was kind of deciding getting back to life, not in Australia when I was, you know, applying to PA school. So yeah it worked. I think some of the applications like Stanford required like 2400 or something. So I didn't have enough and I didn't want to work another year. 

Leigha Barbieri [8:11 - 8:27]: So it's crazy. Some of these programs, they're requiring so much. I worked in the training room in college so kind of also PT type work and that also counted for anyone listening who's trying to get patient care hours like PT clinics. That's another good, another good way to do it. 

Meg Conover [8:27 - 8:34]: It's so fun and I made so many friends there and it's really good to learn how to talk to patients and not say you're getting a lot of patient contact. So. 

Leigha Barbieri [8:34 - 8:36]: Okay so then how many schools did you apply to? 

Meg Conover [8:38 - 9:13]: Six. I remember that. So I was in Arizona. I'm from Connecticut originally. When I came back from Australia my family had moved so at home was Arizona and I didn't even know how to get to the grocery store. So it's a big change. I was like, I'm not sure I'm going to stay in Arizona. I like San Francisco, la, New York. So I applied to, like, pace and a few in, like, Bay Area and in LA, and then, of course, the one in Arizona, just in case. And that was the one I decided on, surprisingly. So I ended up staying at Midwestern University in Glendale, Arizona. 

Leigha Barbieri [9:14 - 9:16]: Nice. And did you like that program? 

Meg Conover [9:16 - 9:49]: Yeah. Yeah. It prepared us for the board so well, and. But I just don't love school. I'm not a person who likes to sit in the classroom. That's why I wanted to be a Pa. That's why I want to go clinical. So, to be fair, I skipped a lot of classes, and I taught myself at home. But the classes you had to be at, like, I went to, board preparation was fantastic. Clinicals are kind of tough to get the clinicals you want, as with all PA programs. But I ended up with some really good clinical rotations, ultimately, and it was great. Yeah, I felt that they super prepared me for everything and no problem with the board. 

Leigha Barbieri [9:50 - 10:17]: So I love that you're being so honest, because I can't stand school either. I mean, okay, I should say I loved school for so long. Like, I was, like, the person who loved high school, and, like, I was all gung ho about everything in college, and then, like, senior year, college rolled around and I was already burnt out. So then going into Pa school, for anyone who knows, it's rough. It's just my program was two years. I don't know how long. Yours? 

Meg Conover [10:17 - 10:19]: Yeah, two years and, like, three months. So, yeah. 

Leigha Barbieri [10:19 - 11:02]: And it's all the way through. You have, like, almost no breaks, and it's. It's a lot. So, yeah, I didn't love being in the classroom. I also did the same thing. I didn't go to the. All the classes. And I know. I will say, I know that a lot of programs, that is not an option. Like, attendance is mandatory, but it wasn't at the time. And I think it was actually a good thing because I think it allowed us to, like, want. Really want to be there. You know what I mean? It wasn't like you're being forced to. They weren't treating us like we were little kids. Like, you had to sign in every day. It was like, you're adults. If you want to learn the material, show up. If not, don't. But, like, we will make sure you pass your boards. And they have a really high board passing rate. 

Meg Conover [11:02 - 11:35]: Yeah, well, and everyone has different learning styles. Okay. I didn't absorb everything. When someone's talking about it, it's on a board, it's in a dark room. I get tired. So I would do some of that, and I would read my books, and I'd make flashcards and I'd write it and I'd review. Like, I had to learn each thing, like three times. I had to study hard, and not being in class gave me extra time to study. So it wasn't like I was just playing or doing. Not doing school. Like, it's work, it's a lot of work. And some people learn differently. So I think, you know, whatever works for you in order to pass. I mean, people failed out, that's for sure. So I didn't want to let that happen. 

Leigha Barbieri [11:35 - 11:49]: You did what you knew was best for you. I did the same thing. I feel like we're very similar in this way. I have to, like, teach myself multiple times. I can't just sit there and listen. You'll get, like, five minutes of my pure attention, and then I'm, like, somewhere else in my mind. 

Meg Conover [11:49 - 12:27]: Yeah, 100%. And if you want even more honesty, I considered dropping out the first year, probably like four, really. Not because of grades, but just because it wasn't my thing. I wanted to be clinical. All my friends at that time were professionals. I had friends that were on yachts. They were yachties in Europe. Like, they were just living the life. And everyone, you know, was making good money. And I'm just sitting here, broke in my apartment, studying at four in the morning, you know, and that's hard when you're young and you just have to wait and you know that, you know, hopefully, ultimately, you're going to be that professional too, but it's hard because it feels like you're behind, I guess. So, ultimately, of course, I didn't drop out, but I considered it so many times and I think that's, like, totally normal. 

Leigha Barbieri [12:28 - 12:29]: Are you happy you didn't drop out? 

Meg Conover [12:29 - 12:58]: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I can't imagine what I would have done otherwise. I mean, I still love medicine, I love patients, I love healthcare. There's a lot of struggles and it's like a love hate relationship daily. It's a battle in my mind all the time. And at this point, I've been through so much. Probably burnt out three or four times from different positions, but, like, always find myself back in the medicine, in the patients, aside from everything else that goes on otherwise, administration or insurance or whatever, you know? 

Leigha Barbieri [12:58 - 13:16]: Yeah, in the end, it's really about the patient, and I think we can get lost in a lot of that administration stuff and a lot of the drama. And then, you know, you have this interaction with a patient that just like, makes you feel so good, and you're like, oh, yeah, this is why I'm doing this. 

Meg Conover [13:16 - 14:02]: Right? It's not like a job. You go and you leave. It's a job that you carry a little bit of each person you interact with every day with you, and different specialties allow different amounts of that. But, you know, anytime you're in peds, of course, those kids, you know, they're vulnerable. So anything you can do to help a kid or a parent that's stressed, that's huge, and that stays with you. And now being in psych, I mean, I'm seeing patients who are attempting suicide and they're not sure they want to live or postpartum depression, and, like, you'll carry some of those with you. Those are moms. They have kids my age and they're struggling. And, you know, if you can just give them your time, your divided attention and your non biased, like, that's so valuable sometimes. So that's like, that's where that you feel good. It's a good. It's a good gig. I'm not just sitting at a desk, you know, you feel like you're doing something that matters to somebody. Maybe it's just one person, right? 

Leigha Barbieri [14:02 - 14:08]: Totally true. Your first job, I think you mentioned it maybe already, but what was your first job out of Pa school? 

Meg Conover [14:08 - 15:44]: It was awesome. It was hand in plastic trauma surgery with, like, the coolest surgeons ever. The busiest hospitals. We were over 30 hospitals in the Phoenix Valley area. They were, like, the only hand surgeons on call, which imagine as a new grad, like, oh, this is awesome. We're going to see some really great cases. But, you know, you learn that that's going to mean, like a hundred hours of work a week. You're on call at four given hospitals. Every single night you're on call, and high burnout rates for pas. You know, I started with one of my. I think I started with one of my classmates, or she came on shortly after I did from our graduating class, and there were four of us, and then, like a month later, there were two of us, and then, you know, there was one for a time, and it's just that turnover. But the job was amazing. It was surgical, it was hospital based, and we had a clinic that we saw, like 300 patients before 02:00 p.m. every day between four providers. It was wild. That is, like, so wild. The best fractures, gunshot wounds, free flaps, even kids peds. We did the first surgeries in the. In the Phoenix children's hospital when it first opened. Some really, really good cases, but, um, can't maintain that for. I did a year. I did a year of that, and I was like, I'm not healthy anymore. I'm not sleeping. I'm up at 04:00 a.m. to do brachial artery repairs. I've gained weight, my dog hates me, and I want something a little bit more than this, you know? So it was wonderful. But after a year of 100 hours, and it just kept decreasing like, there was no pas. You were just constantly running. I'd go to four hospitals a day, typically. 

Leigha Barbieri [15:44 - 15:45]: Oh, my God. 

Meg Conover [15:45 - 15:50]: So after a year, I was like, we need a change. And I went to urgent care where it was more predictable. 

Leigha Barbieri [15:51 - 16:07]: All right, that's cool. I mean, I'm sure you got to see so much and got so much experience in that one year, though. I mean, you probably did more surgeries in that year than most surgical specialties, too. I mean, it sounds insane. Like, I can't even imagine. How do you even get 300 patients in an office? 

Meg Conover [16:08 - 17:24]: Thank goodness I wasn't in charge of that, but I was in charge of, like, the surgery schedule and calling all the hospitals and getting the patients on. So, no, I don't know. I don't know how they did it. I don't know how those doctors have continued, but I love them and I've still been in contact with one of them and he's been a reference for me and he's amazing. Doctor Champagne in Phoenix, Arizona. So one thing, one of the questions in your email said, you know, what do you recommend? So most people are going to tell a pa, don't go into a specialty, don't specialize early on, but my recommendation would be like, do hospital stuff, do surgery, do rounding, so you know what it's like. And then do clinical stuff or vice versa, you know, whatever it is. So you have both that experience of being in a hospital setting and in a clinic. And so that was super valuable. But I went to urgent care and they were super happy to have someone who did hand surgery because they got a lot of hand injuries, a lot of finger lacerations and dislocations. So that's valuable in that setting, too. But I got this more diverse sort of knowledge, and I did that for like three and a half years. And it was a twelve hour shift. I did some nights, I would do three or four days a week. I'd bunch them all together, do nine shifts in a row, and travel abroad for a couple weeks every month for like an entire year. And that was great. It gave me that relief from the burnout that I had from surgery the year before. 

Leigha Barbieri [17:24 - 17:26]: Totally. How long did you end up doing that for? 

Meg Conover [17:26 - 17:54]: By three and a half years. Yeah. And I did pick up another gig while I was doing that and kind of do. I did some acute rehab, like, internal medicine stuff the last year, so I was working, like, one and a half times, like, one full job plus a part time job, which was great. And I learned some internal medicine. I was, like, on my first exposure, like, hospital medicine, really complicated trach patients, heart failure patients. So I did that for a stint, and then it kind of cut back really quick. 

Leigha Barbieri [17:54 - 18:51]: What you said about don't specialize. A lot of people gave me that same advice, too. Go do emergency medicine before you specialize in ortho. And. But, like, I just really knew I loved ortho, and so I ignored everybody, and I went into ortho, and it was a cool job because, like you said, I got the hospital experience and the surgery experience, and then I went private. So now I have the clinical experience and the hospital experience. But I would say if, you know, there's something you love, like, just do that, because then you might end up taking a job in. In the emergency department, which you might feel is fine, but it's not something you love to do, and then you're just gonna go through, like, however long in that. In this job that you don't really love. And. I don't know. I'm more about, like, being happy and doing what you're passionate about, and because that comes through to your patients, you know? So. 100%, anyway, I agree with you on that. 

Meg Conover [18:51 - 19:22]: Life is a long time, and to imagine that anyone, even a doctor, wants to do one specialty for their entire life is wild. And I think that's why we see a lot of burnout, because we can switch is why I'm not burnt out at this moment, you know? So. So, yeah, I agree with you. Follow your passion. Know that it might change, and know that sometimes lifestyle might trump passion, too, and just be open to it. And I think what you want to do will change as you go through your career. And being a pa, we can change with it. So that's good. 

Leigha Barbieri [19:22 - 19:24]: Yeah. It's so cool. It's the best career. 

Meg Conover [19:24 - 19:25]: Yeah. 

Leigha Barbieri [19:25 - 19:28]: So then three years at urgent care. What was your next move? 

Meg Conover [19:29 - 19:31]: Oh, you're gonna laugh. Hand surgery. 

Leigha Barbieri [19:32 - 19:32]: You went back? 

Meg Conover [19:33 - 20:51]: Yeah. No, different. Different setting. This was outpatient, minimally invasive. We had our own surgery center. This was in north Scottsdale, Arizona. We were doing stem cell treatments. Everything was in house. We didn't have any hospital privileges even. No expectations, no rounding. So we were clinic, and then surgeon had his surgery centered downstairs from the clinic, and he had, like, two ors, and we kind of ran that together. I was his first pa, which caution anybody to take in that position, but he was very open to it. And I guess you're going to find either someone's going to use you as if you are capable in that job, or they're going to hold you back a lot because they don't know how to use a pa. And I've seen both sides of it. But thankfully, he trained me. We did every single thing together for, like, six months. Surgeries, closing patients. And then he kind of set me free, and it was awesome. And I got to run that clinic for a while. We had a fluoro, so I was doing all the diagnoses myself. I was doing ultrasound guided injections in the clinic, some stem cell injections in the clinic, and I would schedule the patients for surgery, and he'd meet them down in pre op, and he'd review cases, and we'd talk all day long, because I was upstairs, he was downstairs. It just worked really well for a long time. And then one day it didn't. But. 

Leigha Barbieri [20:52 - 20:54]: How many years were you there? 

Meg Conover [20:55 - 20:57]: Three and a half. Three and a half years. 

Leigha Barbieri [20:57 - 21:08]: Okay. That's a good amount of time. It's good to have a boss that gives you a lot of autonomy, I think. If you want it, if you're ready for it. If you're ready, you're ready for it. 

Meg Conover [21:08 - 21:38]: You know, otherwise it could be really scary. But I had a lot of experience with hands and hand surgery, and he taught me a lot. When I first came in, I was ready to be set free and not kind of be his sort of personal assistant. So it was great. It was great. A lot of autonomy. We got a lot of patients in. We did a lot of cool stuff. I mean, we were doing stem cell stuff, fat tissue transfers, and I would do all the harvesting before he even got to the OR. And it was a lot of fun. And we did some really cool stuff, like cutting edge stuff. Cool. So it was good for a while. 

Leigha Barbieri [21:38 - 21:48]: Yeah, I like the hands on stuff. I know I'm kind of putting you on spot here, but do you have, like, one super crazy story that you want to tell people about? Cause, I don't know. 

Meg Conover [21:48 - 21:48]: Crazy stories. 

Leigha Barbieri [21:49 - 21:54]: So many crazy stories. I feel like the hand is so far into me, so give me a crazy story. 

Meg Conover [21:54 - 22:52]: One patient that stuck with me forever from my first job in trauma, it was like a six month old who came to us at the children's hospital, and she came from Mexico because Arizona's close to Mexico, and she had been run over by a bus, and her arm had been run over by a bus sort of at the brachial area here, and it was circumferential, and parents had just been sitting on it. In Mexico, they didn't have good healthcare. So finally, I don't know how it happened, but they ended up with us, and she was losing that arm entirely, and she was only six months old, so we were able to do nerve repair or artery repairs, artery replacements, you know? And she ended up keeping the arm and losing a couple fingers, totally saving her arm. The surgeon I worked with on that case is one of the most incredible surgeons I've ever known. Still have ever known. He does a lot of peds and congenital peas now. Like an amazing human being, that one sticks with you forever. Just wild, kind of. And then, you know, such a young little kiddo. 

Leigha Barbieri [22:52 - 23:06]: I know. That's so insane. I can't even imagine how, like, everything in. In the brachial plexus surgeries that I was in, everything is so tiny. Like, repairing the nerves. I can't imagine then taking that and doing it in a child. 

Meg Conover [23:06 - 24:00]: Like, well, let me go back even further. So. So this was like. I mean, this was 2011. This was a long time ago. And I vividly remember the surgery. And we're in the surgery, and, you know, when you connect the arteries and you're like, okay, let the tourniquet down, and you're like, please work. Well, of course, baby blood sprayed all up inside of our, like, our gowns and stuff. And normally, you'd be a little worried about that when it's a patient, but this was a baby, so it was just like, thank God. Like, the blood's flowing, you know, you put a couple more stitches in, and we see how it goes from there. But, yeah, I remember that so vividly. And that was. That was a good case. That was a decent result. I mean, she lost some fingers, but, you know, tie it back to, like, what I'm doing now, educating parents about burns, circumferential wounds, the emergency stuff. Like, that's one of the cases that I think about all the time. The parents were needed to be informed, and, you know, you can have a better result, but there's so many, so many crazy cases. 

Leigha Barbieri [24:00 - 24:31]: I wonder how she's doing now. Surgery is just so cool. And I know if you're listening. And you don't. You're not, like, into surgery. I get it. But when you can take something that's, like, totally broken and fix it, it's just such a awesome feeling. And it's great when patients, like, they are so thankful for it, which is so gratifying, you know? That's a crazy story. That was your third job within the private clinic, and then where'd you go after that? Is that where you are? Does that bring us to now? 

Meg Conover [24:31 - 24:53]: Nope. So I got pregnant while I was working there, and they were building a second clinic, and they told me, hey, you're gonna be the lead on this. You're gonna open this clinic. Because I was doing all clinic at that time. I wasn't surgical anymore. I had hired on another NP. I interviewed her, hired her, trained her up and everything. So I was moving up sort of in this management thing. 

Leigha Barbieri [24:54 - 24:55]: So I thought, cool. 

Meg Conover [24:55 - 25:08]: And I was, like, 33 weeks pregnant. And they called me in for a meeting with CEO and the surgeon. It was just one. And they're like, we can't afford to pay you anymore. Game over. Like, pack your stuff, go home. That's it. 

Leigha Barbieri [25:09 - 25:10]: Is that legal? 

Meg Conover [25:12 - 25:13]: Probably not. 

Leigha Barbieri [25:13 - 25:15]: Oh, my God. 

Meg Conover [25:15 - 25:42]: Yeah. Stuff was going bad at that time for them financially. We knew that, believe me. I contacted some attorneys and the department of labor and everything else, and it's really hard to prove those things. And they ended up hiring a surgeon, a doctor himself, like, who was amazing, graduated from one of the most, you know, renowned hand surgery institutes and residencies, and they ended up letting him go a couple weeks later. He had only been there for, like, three months, and he had a. 

Leigha Barbieri [25:42 - 25:43]: So they were in a bad way. 

Meg Conover [25:43 - 27:37]: Yeah, bad way. Ended up letting the NP go, too. So there's gonna be no way to prove that this was related to me being pregnant. They hired the NP back shortly thereafter. The surgeon ended up suing them. Things went all haywire, and that surgeon is not practicing medicine anymore, so we can leave it at that. But I kind of went quietly into the night at that point. I didn't want to fight. I was pregnant after two miscarriages, I was pregnant with valley fever, where I had been very, very sick in the early part of pregnancy. It was very high risk pregnancy. I was on fluconazole for, like, nine months, and I did not want any bad energy. I was, like, distraught initially, but I took the time and said, okay, this is happening for a reason, right? I'm going to focus on myself and my child, and I'm going to enjoy the rest of this. And then, you know, have the baby. And my little guy, he was born in January of 2020, and we all know that was Covid. So everything in the world shut down. And when he was three months old and I was still home with him, and my life changed, like, completely from that moment. In hindsight, a really, really good and needed way, which I'm really grateful for now. Things happen in strange ways, but that was how that job unfortunately ended. And that's kind of healthcare in a nutshell. I mean, I know a lot of pas whose hospitals have been sold or closed or practices have been sold, and this is part of the game. We have no control over our financial freedom, our income, our job stability. You could be doing the best job in the world. Somebody else is running the show, and you have zero control over it. And that's the love hate part of this whole thing. 

Leigha Barbieri [27:37 - 27:38]: Yeah. 

Meg Conover [27:38 - 28:06]: I mean, you have no job security ever in healthcare, ever. You start making more money, you stay longer on the team, you become more senior, you're more on the chopping block, which is sad. And I wish it wasn't that way, but that's the truth. And, you know, anyone considering going to healthcare, it's the truth. And you have to always have something in your back pocket or a game plan. I did for a lot of my career, too, but not when I was pregnant, because I doubted that anything would happen to me while I was pregnant. 

Leigha Barbieri [28:06 - 29:09]: Right? Well, yes. Okay, so I've seen it. I've seen it happen where the top executives and people who have been at the hospital the longest are the first ones to get let go, which is just, like, so hard for me to wrap my head around it. I don't think it makes sense, but I understand why they do it, I guess. So, yeah. We don't have job security in that way, but also we. We have the security of knowing that, like, at least now, in the foreseeable future, pas are always going to be necessary, and doctors are always going to be necessary, and nurses are always going to be necessary. So it's easier than. And let's say somebody. For instance, I have a friend who lost. You know, her company got sold, and she decided to leave her job and then took her a year and a half to find a new job. Like, I'm not sure that happened. That's going to happen in healthcare. So I guess that's the good thing to fall back on. But, yeah, you should always have kind of, like, a little bit of a backup plan. 

Meg Conover [29:09 - 29:26]: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. You can turn around and get another job within days, usually depending upon what you're willing to take as far as, you know, schedule, benefits, whatever. But having another plan is important. I think in healthcare, it just is what it is. I'm laid off. I had a baby, and it's Covid. 

Leigha Barbieri [29:26 - 29:43]: Yeah. Things do happen for a reason. I mean, you were probably. I don't know. I'm not. I don't know how you felt, but, like, I may have been happy that I didn't have to worry about a very stressful job while Covid was going on. And I had a newborn, so maybe it was for the best. 

Meg Conover [29:43 - 30:58]: Yeah, it was toxic. It was very toxic at the end, it was very stressful. I would take breaks, drive my car down the street and cry. And I didn't know why I stayed there. I was trying to help. It was just. I thought I could help more, but obviously it didn't matter. And then I decided, you know, it's my first kid. I don't want to go back to work. This is a pandemic. I don't want to bring home these germs. And that was, like, a really hard decision because I have skills, and I felt like I should have been helping in the pandemic, and I felt so torn. But I had this little baby that was so hard for me to have, ultimately, anyways. And I was like, what do I do? Like, what's most important? The health of my newborn. Me helping the greater community through a pandemic. And it was hard, and I didn't have a choice made for me. I always thought I'd be pregnant. I'd take six weeks off and I'd go right back to work because I love my career. But it changed, and I got forced into a different mindset. And I interviewed. During that time, I interviewed pediatric trauma, actually, at a local hospital. I sat down with a top surgeon, and he looked at my resume and he said to me, this looks like you have no idea what you want to do. Looks like you're confused. 

Leigha Barbieri [30:59 - 30:59]: What? 

Meg Conover [30:59 - 31:51]: I'll never forget that. Yeah, I did a lot of specialties. I had a lot of different positions. And, you know, I kind of walked away from that. And I think they called me back for another interview after that. But there was. My head was spinning at that time. And I'll never forget that, though, that he said that. And as a pA, you can decide if you want to be super duper specialized and spend your whole career in one thing, or you can have a vast amount of knowledge that you can use in your specialty and add to that practice, whereas maybe the doctors and surgeons don't have that knowledge. So I did get offered some orthotrauma positions during the pandemic and ended up turning them down. We decided to move from Arizona to Idaho. That was like, kind of top priority. We did that. The house sold. It was craziness. We had nowhere to live. We decided, we're going to buy a house site unseen in a town we've never been in. And we did that. 

Leigha Barbieri [31:51 - 31:52]: Wow. 

Meg Conover [31:52 - 32:41]: My husband's job was remote, so we could just, like, a lot of people. And we moved to Idaho, and my kiddo was like ten months, and I ended up getting pregnant, like, the weekend we moved in. So it was like, well, we're going to wait a little bit longer to go back to work and get settled. But I did. I did want to go back because I had been staying in at home for a long time and I love my kids, but I wasn't built to be a stay at home mom. It just wasn't my thing. I have other passions and I felt pulled back to medicine. I actually interviewed for a hospitalist position here and I was actually twelve weeks pregnant and I kind of had to hide it, but I did and ended up getting that job. And the credentialing took like, eight months, which was wonderful for me. And they're like, okay, we're ready for you to start now. And I'm like, my due date is in, like, four days. 

Leigha Barbieri [32:41 - 32:41]: Yeah. 

Meg Conover [32:42 - 33:02]: So they were amazing. And I took four months off, and then I started an entirely new job, specialty state hospital. The whole thing was new and I learned a ton. That was where I started in hospitalist medicine, and that was like a huge learning curve, having two little ones at home, too. Two under two, so. 

Leigha Barbieri [33:02 - 33:04]: Wow. I bet, yeah. 

Meg Conover [33:04 - 33:05]: Yeah. 

Leigha Barbieri [33:05 - 33:11]: So what made you want to go into hospitalist medicine or internal medicine, which is what you're doing now in a psych hospital? 

Meg Conover [33:12 - 34:28]: I wanted to keep learning. Like, with hand surgery, I feel like I had tapped out. You know, I knew everything about all the joints in the hands, all the nerves in the hands. I wasn't interested in going surgery with the little kids at home and not having a predictable schedule. So I just wanted to learn. And I've always said, like, we should have a sabbatical where we can try out, like, every specialty we want for, like, a couple years as a pa, because I think we'd be really a lot better as a pa, as pas in general, if we could do that. So I kind of made my own sabbatical. But it was time to learn something new and complicated and challenging. And so hospital medicine is that for sure. The patients are more complicated than I've ever seen in my life. It was a huge challenge, and I was working part time, and I was working 10:00 a.m. till 10:00 p.m. which didn't end up working out so well for my little family and my little kiddos. So ultimately, I switched off of that again and still doing hospital medicine. I don't even remember how I found this job in a psych hospital. I was just applying because I wanted to be able to put my kids to bed at night and see them for dinner. Like, that was the priority. And so I found a job at a psych hospital, and I do the hospital medicine, and I manage the complex patients. And there's like, our census is like 105 patients at any given time, and I'm the only medical provider there on site ever. 

Leigha Barbieri [34:28 - 34:28]: Wow. 

Meg Conover [34:28 - 34:32]: I have one partner, she's a PA two. So we switch off. 

Leigha Barbieri [34:32 - 34:33]: That's great. 

Meg Conover [34:35 - 34:56]: It's an inpatient psych. So we do. We have an ICU unit, which is like psychotics prisoners, people who are like, high psychosis, methamphetamine psychosis, they need to be protected. And then we have an adolescent unit, which is kids who have similar issues. We have a detox unit, we have an adult unit, and we have a geriatric unit. So it's a ton of fun, actually. 

Leigha Barbieri [34:56 - 34:57]: That's awesome. 

Meg Conover [34:57 - 35:27]: It's daytime, and I get to go see my patients. I do their histories and their physicals, and I manage their meds, and I see anyone else who got sick overnight, which you wouldn't believe the complexity of what I see. I mean, cirrhosis, GI obstruction, like a bowel obstruction, decompensated heart failure, pancreatitis. That's my day now, which is great. I just have to be able to recognize it and keep the patients safe and get them to the right places. And that's what I do now. And I go home when the work's done. Yeah. 

Leigha Barbieri [35:27 - 35:53]: I don't really know anybody that works in psych, which is so interesting. I loved my psych rotation, though. I will say I got a really good rotation. I've been curious about it. You do the internal medicine side of things, which also scares the crap out of me because at this point I'm like, I'm like, twelve years into my career and I've never left ortho. Just like, what is congestive heart failure. No, but, like, hard. 

Meg Conover [35:53 - 35:54]: It's complicated. 

Leigha Barbieri [35:54 - 36:14]: Yeah. And I sometimes think, like, I wonder if I'll ever go back into something else where I can just, like, relearn all this stuff. So I commend you for that. Like, it's. It takes I, for lack of a better word, it takes balls to be able to, like, just jump into another specialty like that. Like, I honestly, I don't know if I could do it. 

Meg Conover [36:14 - 36:47]: Yeah. I don't know what I was doing, honestly. I mean, I heard that statement more than once, too. And you got to be totally committed. And I just don't think, you know, having other things going on at home, little kids. It's hard to learn that stuff and doing it in the actual hospital setting and not the psych setting you need to know so much more. So the psych setting suits me now, where I'm continuing to learn, but I'm not actively managing. I'm having to recognize and diagnose and then, you know, send them off to a higher level of care for management, which is okay with me for right now. It's fine. 

Leigha Barbieri [36:47 - 36:51]: Yeah, that sounds great. I mean, it sounds like a really cool job. 

Meg Conover [36:51 - 37:01]: Yeah. And I've always enjoyed the diagnostic part of things more like the mystery and figuring out what's causing it, and then the management. The management can be more tedious sometimes, so. 

Leigha Barbieri [37:01 - 37:18]: So I guess this is a good segue into the question I ask everyone, which is, what do you love about your job and what do you hate about your job? Or in your case, you know, you've had a lot of experience, so what do you love about being pa, and what do you not love about it? 

Meg Conover [37:18 - 37:39]: I love that pas can switch specialties. I wouldn't be a pa anymore if I couldn't do that. So I've switched specialties so many times, and I have this, like, wealth of knowledge and all these different types of specialties, and I love that I was able to get that, being a pa. So, number one, that's the most amazing part of our job. What do I hate about it? Oh, there's a lot of things to hate about it, too. 

Leigha Barbieri [37:41 - 37:46]: I'm all about being honest, as honest as you want to be. Like, this is a. I'm not trying to just sugarcoat things. 

Meg Conover [37:46 - 39:10]: On this podcast, you have no control over your job stability, job security, financial future. You have no control, and likely you don't get raises frequently. Like, I mean, I had to negotiate my pay, and I negotiate as high as possible, starting because you don't get raises. And if you get raises, you end up on the chopping block, too. So it's hard. I don't think being a pa is going to make you rich by any means. You're going to work your tail off and it's not a pathway to being rich, that's for sure, if that's what you want to be. And admin has the ultimate control over you, no matter how good you are. So that's one thing that's not good and the other thing in healthcare in general. I'm going to describe this because I was feeling this yesterday when I was at work. Even though I love my job and I love my patients and I love my admin now, healthcare as a whole has gone in a certain direction where if you're not in healthcare, you got to imagine, like, the busiest day you've ever had in your life. You had meeting after meeting after meeting. You couldn't eat lunch, you couldn't pee, you couldn't take phone calls, you couldn't do anything, and you were totally overwhelmed and over scheduled. But you got through that day and you did it with fine colors and everything went well. And then you went back to work the next day and they said, hey, this is your new normal because you can handle it. And that's, like, what healthcare is. Let me just see what you can handle. Let me overload you until you crack. And if you don't crack, I'm going to do it every day. 

Leigha Barbieri [39:10 - 39:12]: And that stinks. 

Meg Conover [39:12 - 39:31]: And it's not their fault, it's insurance fault. I mean, we can't make money to keep these hospitals open to help these patients, and it's a greater problem. We all know this, but as a PA or anyone working in healthcare, you're going to be part of the cog in the wheel. And, oh, it's hard. It's hard sometimes. 

Leigha Barbieri [39:31 - 40:20]: It is, it is. It's almost like sometimes I just can't think about all that, so it makes me so mad. But you just have to, I guess, not play the game, but, like, just know what the game is and still, still keep your integrity during it. When you really, when you start working, you're so excited, and then you start realizing, like, what actually is happening behind the scenes and you're like, wow, I have to just. I have no choice. I have to do this. I have to code this this way because I'm not the boss. And do I, you know, it's. It's a, it's a lot. So I agree with you on that. It's a great answer for what you don't like about it because it's. It's what healthcare is. It's a business, unfortunately, and shouldn't be, but it is. But it's also amazing. 

Meg Conover [40:21 - 40:26]: Well, and at the end of the day, you got to separate the me from the whole part of it because they're not doing it to you. 

Leigha Barbieri [40:26 - 40:27]: Yeah. 

Meg Conover [40:27 - 40:48]: They're not doing it at you. And then you go see those patients that they overloaded your schedule with and you realize they needed help and they needed you or somebody, anybody. So there is a greater good, and every shift will ultimately end, and every day will ultimately end, and we'll all be okay, hopefully. But I felt that so many times in this career, so. 

Leigha Barbieri [40:48 - 41:30]: Well, I love your answers. And I also agree, obviously, with the versatility thing. I think it's number one reason why you people go to pa school. Real quick, before we wrap up, I do want to talk about your social media agenda because I love watching your videos. They're so informative. I don't have kids yet, but just froze my eggs, so. Yeah, yeah. So hopefully someday. But I learned so much from your videos and not just, like, how, you know, I'm in healthcare, I should know how to treat a problem, but I have no idea when it comes to children. Right. So, like, what is your agenda? Why did you start this? And what's your favorite part about being on social media? 

Meg Conover [41:30 - 43:50]: Yeah. So you probably know. Well, ever since, like, becoming a healthcare provider pa, you get calls from friends and family and they want answers to like, hey, what's going on with this or that? Or what's this rash? Or what do I do with my kid and all these things? So I answer those questions for years and years and years. Like, I'll get pictures, multiple phone calls, and I love it. You know, it's great. I can help people. But to be surprised what you think is common knowledge to you is not common knowledge to everybody else. And there was a point, too, now, working in psych, where I'm seeing a lot of patients who have other problems. They have emergencies, they have traumas, and they have kids, so they cannot function themselves, nor are they going to be able to help their kids. So I see that the kids are suffering as a part of these families because I'm talking to their parents, and then I'm also talking to the children, you know, when they come to me in the adolescent unit. And to be able to provide some kind of information from a source that these people watch all day, every day. TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. I'm on all of them is, like, such a privilege that I know this information. I can put it in a way that they can understand it, and they can see it in passing, so that when their kid gets burned by the ramen that falls off the stove, they know what to do and the kid doesn't suffer. And that's the goal. The number one goal is that these little kids who are so innocent and so sweet and so wonderful, and once you become a mom, you feel even more attached to that. And they never deserve any of the bad things that ever happen to them, that they can suffer less because their parents are better educated, despite what effort they may be going through. That's the big goal, and that's the why. And that's what keeps me going, because I am working my tail off on this social media platform, and it's a ton of work. But if you have a strong enough why, you can do it, and I'll give you the secondary why. I want control over my financial future. I want job security. I have been in this too long, and I'm going, I have two little boys, and now they got to go to private school because the public schools are run over with too many kids for them to say, oh, mommy, lost your job. Like, what are we going to do for your schooling? So there's really a big part of that, too, where I just want to have control over the future of my career. And I hope to continue to practice in clinic, but also if I can teach other people and more people than I can see every day, and that will also allow me to have control over my career. Great. 

Leigha Barbieri [43:50 - 43:57]: It's awesome. What you're doing really is. I recommend everybody go check, check out Meg's socials. Where can they find you? 

Meg Conover [43:58 - 44:03]: Yep. Should I see a doctor? Yeah, right. Because I'm not a doctor. 

Leigha Barbieri [44:04 - 44:17]: Yeah, right. But here you can tell someone if they need to see a doctor, but, you know. Yeah, no, I like it. I like it a lot. And is everything. Should I see a doctor? Like, on all platforms, we got YouTube. 

Meg Conover [44:18 - 44:24]: Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook is just my name, Megconover. Okay, but it'll be on there, too. 

Leigha Barbieri [44:24 - 45:12]: Yeah, yeah. I'm telling you, if you have kids or you're around children, like, it's such a good resource to have because it's. There are things that you don't even think of, and you're like, oh, my gosh. Well, now I'm so glad I know the answer to this because I'll be. Be prepared or more prepared if this happens. And I'm kind of the same way where, like, I don't have such a strong agenda on social media other than let's tell people the truth. Right? Like, I'm all about, like, justice, but within my realm, like, within healthcare, within being a pa, but also, I like to provide some, like, comedic comedy relief. So I just really admire what you're doing, and I think you should continue. You're definitely growing, and I think it's going to blow up, honestly. 

Meg Conover [45:12 - 45:28]: You know? Thank you. Same. Same back at you. I love what you're doing, too. I think, gosh, I wish I would have had something like this to refer to when I was looking at med school or pa school. I mean, there's so much we don't know. So I think these conversations are so important and keep it up. I know it's a lot of work, so it's worth it. 

Leigha Barbieri [45:29 - 46:01]: Thank you. Thank you. It's been really fun. I love learning about people and what you guys do, and it's so interesting. And I if I can just, like, spread that with the world and our one high school student who doesn't know if they want to, you know, where they want to go to college, and it helps them make that decision, or, you know, it helps somebody make the decision we made, which was being so close to applying to med school because I was the same, and then switching to pa and being, like, super happy, then that, like, my job is done. That's all I really want to do. 

Meg Conover [46:01 - 46:02]: I love it. 

Leigha Barbieri [46:02 - 46:14]: Yay. This is the so you want to work in healthcare podcast with new episodes every month. Don't forget to subscribe to stay up to date on the latest releases.