The Dive Podcast

16: Preparing For The Stage: Michael Ralph on Casting, The Creative Process And Readiness!

• Michael Ralph • Season 1 • Episode 16

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✨ Hit a creative block? You're not alone.

Today, Taylor delves into the fascinating journey of Mikey, tracing his transformation from a passionate performer to a renowned choreographer and director. Mikey shares his insights on the demanding yet rewarding path he has trodden, from his humble beginnings in New Zealand to his professional endeavors across the globe. They talked about:

  • Mikey's early passion for dance and theater, and the rigorous training that shaped his career.
  • His transition to professional work in Australia and his experiences touring with 'Cats' in China and Korea.
  • The pivotal moment when he embraced choreography as his calling and the evolution of his creative process.
  • Insights into the casting process and the qualities that make performers stand out.
  • Advice for aspiring artists on preparing for the competitive world of musical theater, emphasizing continuous learning and maintaining a strong work ethic.

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Speaker 1:

Everyone really could dive in deeper to researching and constantly be researching, like all the time. Be curious about different periods, styles, areas of movement, and don't just look at who were the choreographers, who were the dancers, but like why did they move that way or what informed the choices, so that you have a really intelligent perspective on worlds. It comes back to musical theater. We're creating a world. You already know what a world looks and moves and feels like before you audition because of you researching. It's such ease to the process. Hello, and welcome back to another episode on the Dive Podcast, where each week we interview professional performing artists as we discuss their stories and dive deeper into learning how to navigate the challenges that we face as artists. I'm your host, taylor Scanlon, and if you're new here, I'm a musical theatre performer, yoga teacher, dance teacher and I'm just so excited that you're here Today. We have the one and only director and choreographer award-winning, I must say Michael Ralph with us in the studio. Michael Ralph comes on to talk about his kind of journey thus far and we dive right into the casting and creative process that goes into actually creating a show and the ins and outs of that, and then, to finish off, we also have Mikey tell us a little bit more about some of the challenges that he went through when he was starting out in his career, in hope to inspire you to keep in hope, to inspire you to keep going, and to inspire you to keep going and persevere, even in the times that you may feel like the world is against you. So, if you're ready to dive in, let's start the episode. Well, thank you for coming on the show, marky. My pleasure, it's any chance to catch up with you. I absolutely love it and we always seem to kind of miss each other, but you've been very busy, a little bit busy. You've been traveling and such, and you have as well. I also have. Yeah, it's awesome having you in. Thank you for coming, my pleasure. Yeah, I feel honored. You've had such amazing guests. I am very blessed. No, of course, and I'm feeling very Buddha-like. Yes, it's very tranquil in the studio. This environment is very Zen and I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 1:

At the start of the podcast. That's good. That's always good. Now, before we get into more questions on being a creative casting and even working in the industry, I would love us to paint a picture of what was your training like. Do you always want to get into the arts. Yes, so people might not know I'm actually from New Zealand. People don't often know that because I've been here so long now I don't really sound like a Kiwi. I don't think I knew that. Well, there you go. There you go. First surprise of the podcast it comes out my accent, comes out in random words. So people do kind of have sometimes I'm speaking and people will would be like but yeah, so I'm from new zealand.

Speaker 1:

I grew up there and I started dancing at the age of four at this studio around the road from me. Just so happened to be there, was meant to be. My parents took me, put me in there and I was there from age four to age 18, like before I came to australia. So I grew up there and doing all the things that most little musical theater people do, a lot of people do, is you grow up dancing, then you do singing and then you do high school shows and you do amateur theatre. I did all of that and then later in competitions, dance competitions I'm a comp boy. All of that, yes, great. But it's such a great training ground to learn in that way and to get out on stage and do it. Yeah, so I'm vary from that kind of background and I didn't really have anything else I liked. I just liked doing theater, and dance was like the first step into that. But it really opened the door to theater as a whole. And I had incredible teachers back in New Zealand, one in particular who opened my mind to theatre from a very young age and it was. I very much owe it to her in terms of me wanting to go and be a creative. I think she kind of sparked that in me from a very young age. So I was very lucky to have that kind of person. And then, yeah, I moved to Australia and studied full-time. I studied full-time at a place called Dance World Studios I believe now it is called APO Academy maybe, yeah, and so I did a year full-time there and then I went on to do performing and musical theatre and then it was all on from there.

Speaker 1:

What was it like, transitioning from New Zealand, doing that training and then coming to Australia? It's massive, I think Kiwis and interstaters who come to train and to pursue their dreams. Essentially they have this fire, I think, sometimes a little more than people who might have grown up in Melbourne or Victoria, and then they just go to full-time there. There's something about it because you have to sacrifice a lot more and it costs a lot more and a little bit more skin in the game. Yeah, it's like it's make or break, like you've come all this way, you've worked your whole childhood, you've saved up the money, you're coming over across the ditch. You're here and like I'm here to do this, like so there was not really any option of me not doing it. It was like I'm all in.

Speaker 1:

And anyone who went to full-time with me shout out to full-time people who might be watching would know that I was a very driven, quiet, like studious student at full-time. I never really got like in a lot of trouble, I never really got yelled at a lot, but I was the kind of person who did the best I could in every class. I really tried and I wanted to be a good so that I could get the best out of all the teachers. And I was that kind of person who just like quietly, did his thing. And then all of a sudden it just sort of seemed to work in my favor. Yeah, the work was paying off, but yeah, I was that kind of person. Yeah, and then, all of a sudden, it just sort of seemed to work in my favor, yeah, that the work was paying off. But, yeah, I was that kind of person. But yeah, it's a lot of work and a lot of sacrifice to come from new zealand and restart your life now.

Speaker 1:

I've been here for so long. This is my life. I love australia and I love melbourne and I actually am about to become an australian citizen. Congratulations, congratulations. It's not happened yet, but it will in a few months. I did the test the other day, so that's going to be like a big. That's awesome. Like I'm officially here, an Australian of some. On paper, I will always be a Kiwi, yeah, but I've been here so long. It's my home for sure.

Speaker 1:

And then, how was your training, like, like at Dance World, and how long were you there? I was only there for a year. I was supposed to do two years, but in my first year they allowed me to audition for things. Oh, cool. I was very, very lucky that they would let me go to a few professional auditions and as I started doing those, I got more comfortable with auditioning. And then I happened to get a job in the first year and then I was just gone, so it was not planned to be that way. That was just the way it worked out, very fortunately.

Speaker 1:

And what show was that? It was cats. So we got the same story. We have the same story. Nothing new here. There you go. Yeah, was that overseas? Yes, overseas, yes, it was in China and Korea.

Speaker 1:

So I've done all the things that you've done just probably 10 years before you yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, amazing. So that the things that you've done probably 10 years before you yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, amazing. So that's awesome that you got to get into industry straight away. And it's a different time now that we do focus. A lot of schools focus on discovering you as an artist for the first year, really getting up all of the skills to be ready. But that was awesome. And what was that like? Only being here for a year and then, all of a sudden, you're now going. And, yeah, I was.

Speaker 1:

I was very young, I was only 18, turning 19 on my first tour and being yeah, being on tour with cats is kind of crazy. As you know, it's an amazing show to join as a young person, because I feel like you really learn your craft on the job. And that was better than I could have ever have learned in full time was everything I learned from the older performers, the more established people, watching how they do things, learning how it is to be a professional and what their work ethic was like, and just like how to be a musical theater performer. I learned from touring. I didn't really learn from full-time, not from me. Anyway, I learned craft and skills and honing the skills I already have, but for me it was more about learning on the job, for sure. I mean, yeah, every job's different from full-time, not from me anyway, I learned craft and skills and honing the skills I already have, but for me it was more about learning on the job, for sure. I mean, yeah, every job's different and you learn so much, like with every different show and like when I joined, I was a cast replacement, right, so I actually learned the show in a room by myself for five days with joanne robinson. Wow, one-to-one with joanne. That's five days of crawling and improvising and no one else is in the room. That could be a podcast episode On its own. Yeah, we'll come back to that another day, but it was a lot. It was very intimidating, but I just kind of did it.

Speaker 1:

So, going into a little bit now, obviously you went on and had an amazing career and now you're an incredible choreographer and director. Did you always want to go into choreography? Were you always creating stuff when you were performing? Yes, yeah, in short, yes, yes. So right, when I was young, like I said earlier, I had this teacher who sparked this interest in theater and so I kind of was this as a kid, I would create shows of my own in various forms.

Speaker 1:

So I would have like say this is like a theater. Yes, I would make a stage and paint scenery and I had lights and I had music, and then I would like direct the show in this small little theater, oh wow. And I would spend hours and hours and hours in the dark creating it in my room, in my own little world. And that's what errol came from. Like I was very weird. I still am weird, but that's where it came from. But the teacher was like she taught me so much about lighting and costuming and like she wasn't just a ballet teacher, she was everything. Yeah, there's so much to so much that people don't even know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I just kind of leaned into that, I guess from a young age and so therefore, to answer your question, I did always know that I was interested in, like dancing I was, I love, but I was interested in the whole idea of what it was saying and like the bigger picture and even though I went to full-time and I was a performer for a little, what it was saying and like the bigger picture and even though I went to full-time and I was a performer for a little bit, it was always very much my intention, moving here, that I would go on to do other things that meant more to me, like creating. So the performing was just a stepping stone for me really, and with the process of creating the choreography, did that change over the years or does it differ as well with your directing? The creative kind of process, absolutely like everyone's process evolves, I think, I would hope, as you grow and you change and you get older and you learn. You learn things from different mistakes you make and you learn from the different people you work opposite to. So, absolutely like me, choreographing as a teenager, like a lot of young choreographers, you don't really know quite how what you're doing, but you just love putting steps together or you love copying, essentially from things that you love or watching things you love, and emulating that in your own work. So when I started, it was always about that and I was really influenced by the things I was consuming at the time. But as I grew and evolved and started doing musicals, not just like a piece for a concert or something yes, when it became about actual storytelling and the journey that you can take people through in a show, then my process evolved and changed and now it's very, very different to what I was like 10 years ago and I just think it's in terms of directing. I think of directing the same way and kind of always have. So for me, the process is the same, the way I create choreography for musical theater and the way I think about things.

Speaker 1:

I try to think about things like a much bigger picture. Yeah, not just like the steps are very important and the steps take a long time to work out. Yes, but like I, the first thing is more about, like, the overarching thing of like where are we going? What are we saying? Who are we? What's the environment? I'm trying to create what I want the audience to feel. Do I want them to laugh? Do I want them to be moved in another way. Do I want them to be looking there while that's happening or do I want them to like I try to craft it more from a bigger picture thing? Wow. So to me, directing is just that, but with text.

Speaker 1:

Directing to me is storytelling, just with people talking, and you really are arranging and directing humans in a space, which is essentially what choreographers do. Yeah, and then you're just adding to that the processes of scene work and transitions and how the set moves and the timing of things and pace and all those things that is really important to how a show moves. I already feel like I instinctively know that from being a choreographer. Yeah, yeah for sure. And then obviously, the creative process and directing. I'm so leaning forward, by the way. No, I love it, I want to get right into it. Just relax. I need to get back to my buddha guy over here. It's still a chill out. I'm so like, no, it's good, I love it. You know, with this massive really process you you're talking about how you see things from a bigger lens. A director always definitely has to, because there's so much happening beyond, like you said, the steps.

Speaker 1:

Do you have like moments where you do have that creative block when you're about peace or maybe mid-piece. Have you had any experiences where you've it just gone blank? Of course, yeah, all the time. Sometimes. Yeah, it happens.

Speaker 1:

Let's say, I'm doing two weeks of pre-production before I start a musical, so that would just be me and the dance captains or my assistant in a room, just me and them, and we slowly work at building vocabulary. That's kind of where it starts with a musical for me. So often in that process I'll have like an hour or two of doing something. I'll be like that's it, that's all I can do on this, like let's just put a pin in that and I'll go and start something else fresh. Or I'll be like let's just take lunch now if I've had enough. But you do all that work in pre-production so that when you're in front of a room full of artists and you only got two weeks, yeah, and they're looking at you like cool, tell me what to do, tell me where to go, what do you want me to do, and if I want to avoid having those blocks in those scenarios, but even then, absolutely like I might have been given the morning, let's say, to finish a big production number and I'll get to like halfway through it, and then I get to this whole six, eights, let's say, and then it's the ending and I'll just have nothing, or I'll have prepared something and my assistant might have taught it, and then I'll go, no, it looks terrible, it's not working for me, like let's just put a pin in this. Yeah, I think it's. Yes, I have those moments, but now I know I've been doing it for long enough now that I can trust that it's okay if it doesn't feel right straight away.

Speaker 1:

A lot of my work takes a long time to come together or it takes a long time to find the right version. So I'm the kind of person who does version A, b, c, d and then goes back to version B Right, and then, once we get to version B, I'm happy with it. But I'm really glad that we tried all those versions, because now I know that B is the best one. That's great, but that takes time. So now I'm just a lot smarter with, if it's not quite working, like, okay, let's just teach that, or let's just leave this and make a note, and I'll find some time in three days time to come back to that moment and let me think about it and let me process it and I find that gets me through that kind of block. But obviously if you're really under the punch, you can't just take a few days. Then I would just have lunch for a week. Let's have lunch for a week. I would probably take a break and I would go back to my original intention of that moment or my original videos I've made with my assistants and just really go back to what am I actually trying? To, my original videos I've made with my assistants, and just really go back to what am I actually trying to do here, because I've lost sight of it or I've lost the inspiration for the whole number. So I'll just take a moment and maybe look back on my original research and things like that. I might watch a couple of clips on youtube that I originally watched a month before that inspiration to re-inspire, like really quickly, and then I'll dive back in and just try something and it usually works out eventually. Yeah, somewhere, somewhere, we get there.

Speaker 1:

Going into more now casting you know, now that you've had the process, you're creating behind the scenes, what do you look for when you're casting a musical? Well, it differs what the musical needs, obviously. So you're looking for what that world needs. If we're talking about more from an ensemble dance point of view, let's say you're looking for the kind of artist that is going to help you create the world authentically that we're building, and people's energies, people's skill set, people's's looks, people's ability lend themselves to different worlds. Yes, and there's only very few kinds of performers I've worked with who are that versatile that they can fit every single world I've ever created.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, wow, there's hardly anyone who can really do that like if we want to tell authentic stories and people to move in authentic ways, which is what I'm really interested in. Not everyone can do that. Some people can and they're amazing chameleons. I think I call them chameleons people who can just do any style right and do it well. Yeah, I love those people. I have huge respect for them. But then there's people who are really really good at some kind of areas and styles and ways of moving their body more than other things.

Speaker 1:

So that means that I'm looking for, whatever that project's type or feel like do they move, like they look? Do they look like they were? Like? Albus is an example. We're going through the 40s, the 50s and the 60s, so it was very important to me that the artist could move in a way that people would moved in the 50s, embody that and in the 60s too. They're very different eras of movement, so it really is about do they look and feel and move like they belong in that era? So I'm looking for that.

Speaker 1:

Beyond that, you're also looking for a whole lot of practical things like singing and acting and, yeah, can they cover? How tall are they? Can they be lifted? What's their partner work? Like that, like it's a massive list, because I think a lot of people may not completely understand. Like what goes into casting a show and you go in as a performer and maybe you get cut straight away. Maybe hearing this today, if people are listening in, you can see things. Maybe that it's a such a big picture and I love that you use the word world that you're creating. So there's so many other elements. Yeah, and also I think there's this idea of sometimes in auditions, people are very talented and they're working really hard and they're doing well, but sometimes it's not even about that talent or their ability in the room. It's actually beyond that, like they don't quite feel ready.

Speaker 1:

I want to bring up this idea of them being ready for the task. So sometimes I feel like people come into their own in different times. Yes, some people come straight out of full time and they're ready, in a sense that they are mentally, physically, in a like, mentally, physically in a like, let's say there's an aura about them. Yeah, they have an aura about them that feels cooked right. Then there's other people who are really close and maybe they've been working and working at it for years and then all of a sudden, I might see them one day do a combination in class or something. I'm like, oh my god, you've got it. Yeah, like they click, yeah, this and I love being part of or seeing a moment with someone that I've seen a long time coming and slogging and working. And all of a sudden you're like, oh my god, you did it. Yes, like that's what I was meaning, this all these years. Like now you understand what I wanted from you. Or now you understand how hard you have to go. Or now you understand how much you have to pull back because a lot of people over dance.

Speaker 1:

So this idea of being ready, I think, is a big thing too. That is not really what you want to hear as a performer, that you're not ready, but hey, if you keep working at it and trying and like honing your craft continuously, like not coming out of full time, you're like, cool, I'm ready. Nobody's really ready, like even people who are ready are still not ready the next time they come to try. You know what I mean. We're always trying to keep evolving. So, yeah, that idea of being ready I think is important to to keep evolving. So, yeah, that idea of being ready I think is important to, I guess, digest, yeah, and from a creative's point of view, you can just feel it off.

Speaker 1:

The person. When they're ready, like they're really what's attractive is someone who's calm. Even when they're nervous, they hold themselves together well and there's a quiet confidence about them. I think that's also a great sign. There's a quiet confidence, there's a trust in their ability and there's a nice human in there too. Yeah, like there's a nice person that you would like to work with, yes, for a year. That's important and then also do whether they're ready.

Speaker 1:

If I don't know the person, I will absolutely research the person right, because I want to know who is this person that I'm potentially working with or I'm putting within a group of people for a year or more, and so it's really important to me in casting that we look at not only the ability, the talent, talent, the look, the covering, but like, who are they? And to find that out. I'm not going to tell you my secrets, I have my sources, that's it. This goes really good into the next question how important is reputation and work ethic? What a segue. Well, I was literally just nodding to it then.

Speaker 1:

I think, personally, to me, work ethic and reputation is 50 of it for me. You could be the most talented, phenomenal performer who I've seen do incredible performances in other pieces, and you might come in an audition for something I'm involved with, but I've heard anything or I get a feeling off you that feels like we might not be the right fit to work together. Or I call other creatives or other residents and I literally ask them about you and maybe they don't say something in such a positive way yeah, or they say they were really great, but be mindful of xyz. That all comes into the way I think about the casting or not, because it comes down to, like I said, a group of people we're putting together, we're creating a world. If there's anyone within that world who I think is going to be not as great a fit with those other people or might affect the energy in the room, or they might have particular things that they're working through, that they're maybe needing to keep working through in their own own time, that they're not ready to work with us yet, all those things. So, yeah, it's important to me.

Speaker 1:

It might not be important to everyone, like the process. This is all my point of view. No for sure. I mean, the people that we've had on have said very, very similar. I mean, right, work, work ethic was a massive thing and I was trained in like it was a big thing, but I think it never goes out of style and it's awesome to acknowledge the things you have control over, and work ethic is one of them, because there's so many things in the arts that you don't have control over, but you do have control over how you show up, how you present yourself Absolutely, how human you can be, absolutely Kind you can be, and ask and conversation, like having an opinion, yes, like have a chat with me.

Speaker 1:

Let's talk about something we saw. If you want to ask me something, ask me. I'm open to having conversations with anyone I teach or have mentored or worked with. Let's get to know each other and talk, and that also helps too. Then I can have a trust. You trust me. I trust you because you see that human in the human. Maybe sometimes we put directors or choreographers on such a pedestal that we forget that not only that you're human, but the other way around is, we're looking to work with people, the people that are like you, maybe a little bit more sure of themselves or quite that quiet confidence.

Speaker 1:

There's lots of different aspects in hey listeners, if you're interested in yoga, pilates or even becoming a yoga teacher, I highly recommend you come and check out the Australian Yoga Academy. It's located in the heart of Chapel Street in Melbourne, with daily yoga and Pilates classes as well as yoga teacher training to get you prepared to step onto the other side of the map. Whether you're here to be a teacher or not, you can come to the Australian Yoga Academy and find something for you. They also house Reiki, osteo and Physiotherapy, and they're really just revolutionizing the way that we look at our bodies and also connect together as a community. Whether you're a beginner or a daily yogi, the Australian Yoga Academy has something for you. The Dive podcast is also filmed here and houses our sound therapy sessions each and every Monday To receive up to 28 days of unlimited yoga and Pilates. Go onto their website, wwwaustralianyogaacademycom today to check out their generous intro offers for yourself. Now, that's enough for me. Let's get back to the episode.

Speaker 1:

Coming into this question, which also kind of segues in, is how can artists better prepare themselves for the challenges working professionally? So say that they've got in, or maybe not got in. Yeah, what are the secrets? Yeah, what are the things can help them out? I keep the secrets. I keep the secrets. Well, I think this comes down to what are we really talking about in that question? We're talking about what is it to be working full-time in musical, theater or whatever, professionally entertainment? I think it comes down to how you are on a day-to-day. Like how are you with your day-to-day working life? Work life balance these are the things I don't really talk about enough in full-time or training institutions is like, what is it actually like once you've got the thing you're working so hard for, like, how do you do it? And I think, again, that's why, talking to other people and connecting and networking with other performers or teachers that you have, asking intelligent questions, soaking up all the information you can about jobs they've done, not about the career, not about the industry, but the work life. Like what do I need to do so I can be better at da, da da, and what's happening maybe behind the scenes? Yeah, I'm always a big fan of don't be so focused on how you fully perform in the moment. But what are you doing when no one's watching? Yeah, I don't think people have a great concept necessarily until someone tells them about coming to work.

Speaker 1:

And how do I warm up? How much do I warm up? How much warmth is necessary? Do I do what everyone else is doing? Do I do my own thing? Like vocal health? Like what am I doing? Am I warming down my voice after the show? Am I taking the time to warm my body down? Injuries like how early am I getting onto that niggle? Not, I'm fine, I'm good, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna push through, and then you're off for like three weeks. Yes, see it. All those kinds of things that it's not putting.

Speaker 1:

I'm not blaming anyone for these things that I'm mentioning, by the way. I'm purely just bringing up like things that people don't necessarily know until it either happens to them or someone tells them, shares that information with them. So I think, the more things that people can ask and that's why this kind of podcast is great, especially talking to performers and stuff because then you can really dig into the nitty-gritty of like, yeah, okay, how do you swing? Because no one tells that. No, and then suddenly someone gets a swing job and they don't know what the hell they're doing. Yeah, until someone shows them. Yeah, but how great would it be if they already had an idea of it. So they walked in the door and they were three steps ahead of everyone else and then they could feel more confident in what they do. Yeah, anyway, I think what other steps could people take? I mean, we've kind of touched on a few there.

Speaker 1:

But I think the other thing I'd love to mention is this particularly with choreography and movement and picking up style, I think everyone really could dive in deeper to researching and constantly be researching, like all the time, be curious about different periods, styles, areas of movement, and don't just look at who were the choreographers, who were the dancers, but like why did they move that way or what informed the choices, so that you have a really intelligent perspective on worlds, which comes back to musical theater. We're creating a world, if you already know what a world looks and moves and feels like before you audition because of you researching. It's such ease to the process, both for the creative, because they don't have to show you how to do a charleston properly no, you already know yeah, or. And for you, you don't feel so stressed about how to do a Charleston properly no, you already know yeah, or. And for you, you don't feel so stressed about oh, I can't get these steps Like. You already know how they move in the 60s because you've watched and you've absorbed it. So therefore, the process is more fun for all of us.

Speaker 1:

So I encourage people, yeah, to really be a nerd like I am and always have been as much as you can, and just be a nerd like I am and always have been as much as you can, and just be interested in everything, look up everything, read everything, ask questions. Be that nerdy person, because I'm not saying you have to be consumed by it, but your interest in it should be important to your development as an artist and that should never stop, absolutely not. You know we talk about that on the show a lot. A find something outside that you know makes you happy. But, yes, the learning never, ever stops and even when you're in a show, still learning yeah, like you said, on the job or outside the job, creating, doing stuff that is still filling that cup. Yes, very important.

Speaker 1:

What's the biggest challenge? Going back into the beginning of your career, what was the biggest challenge that you went through and how did you manage it or overcome it? I mean, shall we dive back into, like me, being a performer Because that is I never really get to talk about that, I know, I know Well, we can, we can dive back in time. A lot of people that listen in are at the beginning of their career. They're starting out, maybe even in full time, and we also say there are artists along the way that have kind of lost the passion or they're just kind of stuck in this place of unknown. So that question why I ask it is more about you know, we all have different challenges. Yeah, and maybe something that you went through someone can resonate with and how you went through it.

Speaker 1:

So we talked about me doing Cats as my first job, but after that it took me a long time to get another job. So if I was to look back in hindsight now as a creative and look at me as a performer. Firstly, I don't think I was a very good performer. I was never meant to be a performer. I wasn't. I was too self-aware. I was way like too on the outside looking in, like that's what I was like. So I'm putting a cross through my name as a performer, okay. But anyway, it took me a long time and I think it's because I was very versatile as a dancer, but I wasn't like my look and my build. I've always been very thin. So when I was a performer there was a lot of shows that were hiring for male ensemble or male presenting ensemble, very muscular, tall men. That was kind of it right.

Speaker 1:

And if you weren't that, there were very, very few things for you. A bit more. Unless you went to the gym, which I did, so I would go to the. I never go to the gym. Now I to the gym, which I did, so I would go to the gym. I never go to the gym. Now I hate the gym Much more of a yamaste, yeah, namaste. I also like yum, yes, anyway, I'm talking about that.

Speaker 1:

I went to the gym and went to dance class and like put that effort in and then I would get to the end of things but not get it. So I would go through a lot of getting to the end of things but not get it. So I would go through a lot of getting to the end of shows like being in the mix but getting a no. So that happened a long time as well. But I think eventually I feel like I became the person that the work ethic and the skill got me that job eventually, or the reputation, the more people knew of me. And perhaps I also found like when I started choreographing things, then people started hiring me as a performer more because they knew who I was and there was like some kind of trust there. Yeah. But yeah, I think the challenges I've gone through a couple of them there, but in terms of how I overcame them, I think it was well.

Speaker 1:

I pushed to try to shift my physicality and my body, literally the way I looked. I tried to work on that a lot and that did help and didn't help, didn't make me feel that great that I had to shift. You know what I looked like to fit a mold, but I tried that and it worked and kind of didn't work. And then I also think the more I went in on with performing, the more I came to the realization that what I really wanted to be doing wasn't that, and so making that switch, being creative and hanging up the dancing shoes as a choice is when things started to. That's what got me out of that Right. That's what got me out of being right. That's what got me out of being a performer. There you go is the want to do other things. Well, thank you for being on. I absolutely I loved having you on and I know a lot of people are going to get lots out of it.

Speaker 1:

If you have any questions for us, myself or mikey, you can email me at info at the divecomau and we'll answer your questions and always happy to. Yeah, great, thank you for having me. You're so welcome. I feel dived. It was great that you actually mentioned you know you've got to dive in because that's actually why I created it.

Speaker 1:

I was thinking right, what platform can help performers and the performers that make it happen? You can't just put your pinky and you really have to dive. All in, commit, work, work hard and make it happen. Yep, thank you. Thank you, thanks for having me. You're welcome. Yay, thank you so much for listening to another episode on the Dive podcast.

Speaker 1:

If you have any questions for myself or Mikey, you can always email us info at thedivecomau.

Speaker 1:

If you're looking for more information and more resources, you can always head to our website at wwwthedivecomau and really just go and check it all out. There's so many awesome things, from checklists to free classes, and be sure to check on there for more upcoming masterclasses. We've been running our dance masterclasses around Melbourne and, yeah, it will all be updated on there for any new up and coming exciting things. We also have a blog that you can go and check out that talks specifically on the challenges that we face as artists and really just gets into the nitty gritty of how you can implement it into your life the nitty-gritty of how you can implement it into your life. If you love this episode, you can share it with a friend and share, like, comment and interact as much as you like. As always, I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day and if you've got nothing else to do right now, why don't you go ahead and listen to another episode? Until then, I'll see you on the next one.