The Dive Podcast

23: Navigating Voice, Mindset, and Resilience with Rosie Harris

• Rosie Harris • Season 1 • Episode 23

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In this episode of “The Dive Podcast,” we welcome Rosie Harris, an accomplished performer and vocal coach, to discuss the intricacies of a performer’s journey. Rosie shares her experiences from growing up in a small town to navigating the professional world of performing arts. We delve into her challenges with vocal injuries and the recovery process, highlighting the importance of vocal health and resilience.

Rosie also provides valuable insights into her transition from performing to teaching, offering practical techniques for managing performance anxiety and maintaining vocal health. We explore the significance of the vagus nerve, the role of the nervous system in performance, and effective breathing exercises.

Join us as we gain a deeper understanding of the performer’s mindset, the importance of a supportive community, and the balance between professional and personal life.

Topics Discussed:

 • Rosie’s background and early career

 • Transition from small town to professional stage

 • Vocal health and overcoming injuries

 • The journey from performing to teaching

 • Understanding the voice and the vagus nerve

 • Managing performance anxiety

 • Practical breathing techniques

 • Insights on resilience and mindset in the performing arts

Key Resources and References:

 1. Books and Authors:

 • “Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art” by James Nestor

 • “The Breathing Cure” by Patrick McKeown

 2. Techniques and Methods:

 • Wim Hof Method: Wim Hof Website

 • Box Breathing and Buteyko Method: Techniques for managing anxiety and enhancing performance.

 3. YouTube Channels and Online Resources:

 • Andrew Byrne: Vocal coach and mentor. Andrew Byrne Website

 • Suki Baxter on YouTube: Demonstrates vagus nerve exercises. Suki Baxter YouTube Channel

 4. Relevant Apps:

 • Wim Hof Method App: Available on iOS and Android for guided breathing exercises.

 • Various meditation and breathing apps (e.g., Headspace, Calm) for managing anxiety.

Contact Information:

Rosie Harris:

 • Email: rosieharrisvoice@gmail.com

Here Are Your Next Steps 👇🏻

Step One: 📝Get your FREE 3-Steps To Confidence Workbook

Step Two: 🫂 Join Free Facebook Support Group

Step Three: 👀 Check out the Momentum Program for aspiring MT performers looking to become professional

Step Four: 🎥 Watch our MOST DOWNLOADED Podcast Episode with Luca Dinardo

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome to the Dive. Now more than ever, we need to be finding ways to help us navigate the challenges of being an artist. You're listening to the Dive Podcast, a show specifically designed for performing artists, to help you stop the stress and overwhelm and instead find ways to get on stage with confidence, passion and ease. I'm your host, taylor Scanlon. I'm a fellow performing artist and founder of the Dive, the fastest growing support platform for performing artists. Each and every week, we have a brand new guest on the show who is a professional in the industry to discuss their unique stories and help us tackle the industry challenges. To help you perform, rest and excel at your peak.

Speaker 2:

I believe that we all have a unique story to share, but most of our struggles are common. So, without further ado, let's dive right in, let's get to work and create a career of a lifetime. Welcome, rosie, to the podcast. I'm so thrilled that you're here, not only for myself I'm going to learn a lot along the way but for so many viewers and listeners. You are in better than capable hands to learn more about the voice and about all the muscles that encompass the voice and singing with Rosie. Thank you so much for being on.

Speaker 1:

Pleasure, taylor. Thanks for having me, of course.

Speaker 2:

Now, before we get into all of the wonderful topics of the Voice, and today I want to dive back to the early years of Rosie Harris. Where did it kind of all start for you?

Speaker 1:

Oh goodness. Well, I guess I'm a country girl, yes, farmer's daughter, oh really, yeah. So I guess there was a lot of time to explore and play and I, you know, just decided I wanted to do it as a career and had a year off school working at McDonald's to save money and audition for Whopper, and I got in there you go.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah, and what was Whopper like going from you know country town to now being around leading you know know people? Yeah, well, it was some definitely an eye-opener.

Speaker 1:

I mean, you know we're talking the 90s here, so I grew up in the country with no internet or YouTube. So yeah, you know, it was such I loved my time there. I feel really lucky with the teachers. I had the class group I was in. I learned so much because I knew nothing.

Speaker 2:

I literally knew I mean I knew how to you know.

Speaker 1:

You kind of know the basics Like I could sing and yeah, the basics, I guess back then.

Speaker 2:

It's the love. You're just going in the passion of it.

Speaker 1:

You're not really thinking much about it. I hadn't seen a big musical, so I was like I'm studying something you didn't see, a big musical even before. Whopper no no, when I say country, country, like I didn't do the whole travel to Melbourne and see shows and stuff.

Speaker 2:

You decided to go across to the other side of Australia to do it.

Speaker 1:

I had a Phantom of the Opera record.

Speaker 2:

Great, you took it with you on a plane. Well, probably.

Speaker 1:

I knew that thing off by heart, that's for sure, I bet, I bet Every character. So, yeah, that was kind of so. I didn't know who Stephen Sondheim was, you know it's like massive. So I learned a lot and then, yeah, graduated in 99 and moved to Melbourne straight away and I started the career.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing, yeah, so what was it like then coming from Perth to Melbourne? What was like that transition, because did you have time to go back home, or I can't remember.

Speaker 1:

Did I go back home? I think I might have for Christmas maybe. Yeah, yeah, trying to think of the timeline, because you fly in, you showcase, yeah, and then you go to Sydney, right, and that's a whole other thing. Sydney is very different to melbourne and the vibe is very different and it was a bit of a shock to the system and you know, I feel like I felt like I'd been in a cage for three years in perth and perth's just like a big country town so I hadn't even really experienced a city, so I think my experience was probably very different to people who had grown up in Melbourne already.

Speaker 1:

So I guess I can definitely sympathize with my regional students and working at the VCA, like students who come from regional areas. There's definitely an energy and a beautiful naivety, like it's so stunning because it's something that you know country people have certain elements to their personalities and city people have certain elements and it's just. It brings out different views to their creativity.

Speaker 2:

Well, how great that from your from being in, from Mildura is that right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, Mildura, Mildura.

Speaker 2:

So then Perth did you like know that Perth was going to have that country-esque vibe about it.

Speaker 1:

No, I know what I knew. I mean, you know you're pretty immersed. I was pretty immersed in the uni, sure, and yeah, I guess I I didn't, I just knew it was, didn't feel as big as melbourne, um, because I had been to melbourne, you know, a few times. So yeah, and I think it's just getting a place to live and everything in Perth. Back then too, rent was pretty reasonable and then you move here and it's just much busier Trams and All the chaos.

Speaker 1:

All the chaos and busy. But yeah, sydney was definitely. I think I was always going to settle in Melbourne, just easier, I think, closer to family in Mildura my parents, by that point. We lived in Mildura rather than the farm. So, yeah, so we lived in Mildura rather than the farm. So yeah, so I think I settled in. Okay, I didn't really know what the industry was and I think there wasn't a lot to sort of tell me what it was sure, being in Perth and just the way the world was then yeah everything was so far away.

Speaker 1:

There's so much knowledge now. I mean a lot of my students go to New York. I mean that wasn't something we were doing you know, but like internet, oh my God, you can just see footage of all your favorite singers Like I would have to go to a friend's house and look at this, go through their CD collection to actually get knowledgeable.

Speaker 2:

It's so accessible now.

Speaker 1:

It's so accessible so you really understand all the latest musicals and all the songs that are in them and your favourite performers and writers and etc etc.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, I was pretty green to be honest, yeah, Good, because you were able to be such a sponge as well. Having that kind of beginner's mindset, yeah for sure. What did you find was the most beneficial in your training from WAPA?

Speaker 1:

I think the passion for the work and the stories. I think the passion for the work and the stories, I feel you know we had really great guidance there about not doing it for sort of fame and fortune. Sure, I don't know who wants to do it for that.

Speaker 1:

But, yeah, just like I was so passionate about you know the material and wanting to bring that to life, and I think that was such a gift to learn that. So, because there's so much other than that that you have to sift through to just find that, yeah there's, there's so much, and all the rejection and the the. You walk into an audition and you've done all the research. You know what your character ate for breakfast and then you rock up and it's like, okay, 16 bars.

Speaker 1:

And then you, then you get that's all we need to hear for today and you go, oh wow, and you know the reality of musical theatre auditions. I had no idea about that. Whereas I think you know new grads from unis or people who are just starting out, whether they do a course or not, are definitely more aware of a musical theatre audition, which tends to be a self-tape now.

Speaker 2:

Everything's recorded now, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

So I theatre audition, which tends to be a self-tape. Now Everything's recorded now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I definitely what didn't experience that? So, yeah, yeah, did I answer the question? Yeah, no, you did absolutely great, that was perfect. And then so you came to Melbourne and started your career, maybe in a brackets or a short you know way. Can you explain or kind of give a rough brief history about your career and kind of where from WAPA, how did that lead you into Melbourne?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I had a good agent, which was great, and then I then had to. He closed his agency, unfortunately due to health issues, and so I signed with another agency. So there was, you you know, a few sort of hiccups there. But once I sort of got on a roll, I my first professional gig was with the production company actually. So they, they were very the industry wasn't what it is now. There weren't a lot of big shows on when I graduated. Um, mamma Mia was kind of about a year after I graduated, so that was probably one of the first big shows that I went for.

Speaker 2:

Such a good show. Yes, so good.

Speaker 1:

I love the music so good yeah, I was lucky enough to have beautiful Dean Bryant in my year group Wonderful. Yeah, a wonderful person and, you know, incredibly talented writer and director, and so I actually workshopped a lot of new stuff for them.

Speaker 2:

How good For Dean, and so I actually workshopped a lot of new stuff for them. How good for Dean and Matthew Frank and I actually did my first show doing LaCache. Like yeah, for the production company, yeah, I feel like a lot of artists in Australia started with a production company show and yeah, it's really sad that they're not around anymore, but so sad.

Speaker 1:

I've got such memorable experiences with the production company, yeah, and people, friendships that I still have you know, so, yeah, it is a shame because when there's that, when there's nothing, you're not in the big show or whatever. It's just such a great yeah.

Speaker 2:

Little little outlet yeah, and it was only like six weeks. Yeah, it was very short if two weeks when I was doing it. Yeah, six weeks yeah.

Speaker 1:

So a week and a half of rehearsals and then five shows or something. But I think then they extended it out to another week. I think Leeds got a bit longer. So yeah, that was sort of a good, and I would do really well with TVCs. Great A couple of yeah and so that was sort of good. So I was just sort of doing a little bit of tv waitressing. I managed a restaurant I love it which I really enjoyed.

Speaker 1:

I realized, oh my god, I've got leadership skills in me. It was tough because you know all that and I know that a lot of artists find this. It's like, well, you know, especially when you're starting out, that it's like learning. You don't get much notice for the auditions and you've got to somehow learn the lines and everything while you you're holding down these jobs.

Speaker 1:

So I remember just being behind the bar and trying to learn lines and you know, trying to make sure that my skills were still being worked, even though you had to work your job to pay, pay your rent and all of those things. So life was not easy and you know, and I sympathize as well, cost of living is ridiculous right now. So, um, and even though, relative, it wasn't great then either, because wages were also a hell of a lot lower. But yeah, it's not an easy existence and I, yeah, hard work, being in a form it really is, and I had to live out of home because family was not in Melbourne so I didn't have that luxury.

Speaker 1:

It was yeah. So again, I know that a lot of people have to, can't live at home and save on rent, um, so that's a bit of a killer. So, yeah, a bit of that. And then I did um, the, the, because I did Shane Wall the musical with Eddie great with Eddie Perfect and played Simone and workshopped that process and that was actually a big kind of turning point for me professionally. That was, yeah, pretty fulfilling.

Speaker 2:

And.

Speaker 1:

I remember just walking out on stage every night and go wow, I'm actually getting paid to do a new Australian work.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Rather than not get paid. You know, because it's always a bonus, I'll still do it because I love it. But just to be sort of starting that.

Speaker 2:

How awesome that you got to a workshop. Yes, not just come in and do what's been already?

Speaker 1:

said yeah, originate that role. So that was, yeah, a big highlight.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, that's amazing, and so then you went on through your career and you're also a wonderful teacher as well. Was there anything along the way that kind of made you become a teacher, or were you teaching at the time as well? I?

Speaker 1:

started to teach. Yeah, so I started to teach at the I think it's called a stage school, now YBC. So I started to sort of teach there and I started to teach privately based on that, and then it sort of just built into something I did on the side from performing and then I had a vocal injury so I got a cyst on my vocal fold.

Speaker 1:

Um, I can't remember when that happened a long time ago now, I had like a uh, and I guess sort of okay to talk about this. It was now there's like a term for it emotional laryngitis where I had a, an emotional experience and lost my voice and it just sort of never really came back. And then, yeah, a couple years later I was trying to do um virgins, the musical threesome, that written by dean bryant, matthew frank, and my voice was just not, you know, not happening. Just the load of that show was very high and I was like, yeah, I don't know what's happening. And then, you know, you go and get the dreaded back. Then vocal injuries were very I mean, they're still. It's still like it now and hopefully it's changing, but you just were pretty terrified sure so, because it wasn't much knowledge about it or specifics in what to do.

Speaker 1:

No, it was just like, and you feel like such a failure. If it's your voice how you tear a hamstring, whatever well, that's it.

Speaker 2:

You look at your, your leg and you go, okay, wrap it, ice it, yeah, yeah yeah, so, um yeah.

Speaker 1:

So that was a bit of shock and and I think that's why it took two years to find the wow the injury because I just sort of put off getting advice. So, yeah, I had the, the scope, the stroboscopy, and they're like, oh, you've got a cyst. I'm like what now?

Speaker 2:

So it was two years until you actually discovered that you had a cyst. Yeah, from that experience.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, from that experience I just always sounded like I was a bit sick and people would be like and I was always known for my strong voice that never fatigued, I just wouldn't get tired, and so it was kind of I think people noticed it also based on that Like what's wrong with Rosie's voice? So I said, yeah, I'm just getting over something.

Speaker 2:

Constant For two years.

Speaker 1:

For two years and just kind of hide away managing that restaurant you know, relationships and whatever you do in life. And so, yeah, I had surgery and by that point I'd met a lovely young man in in Thailand who is my now husband, from Holland. So I had the surgery and I decided to just run away for a year and get a working holiday visa in Holland and lived in Amsterdam for a year.

Speaker 1:

Well, I just worked with a coach there, a voice teacher, and recovered and yeah, that was, that was really nice. And then came back to Australia and that's actually soon after that I started workshopping Shane on the musical wow yeah, and then unfortunately I had another injury in that time during that show on the voice yeah, on the voice I hemorrhaged because I just I hadn't fully recovered from the last surgery, so I'd still get fatigued and things, um.

Speaker 1:

So I and that surgery was interesting, I just I just didn't really recover very well from it.

Speaker 1:

I think there was a lot of, you know, I just think, the trauma from surgery and there was potentially like a squashed nerve or something and things just didn't bounce back and I felt like a very different person, very different voice, couldn't sing loud, didn't know what was wrong um must have been so frustrating to very frustrating through that when it's your passion and yeah it's everything that you want to do and you don't have advice on how to get better, and I'm seeing the best of the best and everybody was doing the best they could by me and I still had to get back into the show.

Speaker 1:

I couldn't do the perth season. I had an amazing understudy in Amy La Palma who is, as we know, is pretty darn incredible, so I was very, very blessed to have someone so amazing to have my back and cover me there. And then we got back to Sydney and unfortunately the show was going to close early so I just had to do three weeks there and I just went in and acted the bejesus out of it.

Speaker 1:

You know, thankfully I had that training and you know, and of course it wasn't the voice, it was and I had to. Just you know the ego just had to kind of bury itself yep, store it somewhere. And who knows what people thought of that performance? Who knows?

Speaker 2:

because, again, it wasn't really something that people were verbalizing. I was riddled in performance anxiety, like I was just like when you don't have any control or any structure of how to heal it yeah, and you're going on stage and you're going, yeah, yeah, yeah and knowing like the show really needs you.

Speaker 1:

And you know, and everybody was so amazing, eddie was just, you know, so incredible and gentle and really so, so beautiful.

Speaker 1:

And yeah, I got through it. And then I took about nine months before my next gig, which was again pretty massive. Yeah, I just sort of rehabbed. I couldn't really sing music theatre anymore. My, I don't know, you know now I know, but I could sing opera. So I played Mabel in Pirates Penzance for Opera Australia. So that was that was. That was a lot of fun, but also because I didn't feel like I had the voice I had prior to that surgery, it was not as fun as it should have been and so, yeah, once again, I just sort of did that gig and then backed away and tried to work out what was wrong and started to have a family.

Speaker 2:

That's a lot of years like going back and forward with your voice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

What kept you going like through that? The love, yeah.

Speaker 1:

The love we're addicted Like. Singing is like, oh my God, like well, it's vagal, it's like it stirs the sauce. That's why you know there's chanting and churches where people sing and you know like how special.

Speaker 1:

You know, yeah, I mean, it's just an incredible thing for us to have as humans, and when that is ripped away, it just is so debilitating in more ways than we can ever imagine, until it's not there anymore, like it's just we, I totally took it for granted and I yeah, it was such a power that I had when it was there, and so I just and I would sometimes feel snippets of it, but then you start like the whole performance anxiety, which is another thing I you know, did that start to creep in early, or is it something that came like later on with the injury?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, probably. I think it was always there, but I didn't really know what it was. It was pretty much there.

Speaker 2:

Because that's almost still quite a new term it really is.

Speaker 1:

That's the thing. I say it now. I'm like, oh, that's what it was you know yes.

Speaker 1:

Standing side stage before going on for Pirates and just taking the slowest breaths. My warm-up was literally just me on the floor, breathing and just breathing and just trying to steady my nervous system and like now I have, like, so many tools. But then it was like, okay, this seems to be working, because the first thing Mabel does is she walks out and sings a massive cadenza that I could never get through, right, and I knew that that, like I was supposed. So I just did a good acting choice in the middle and took a breath gotta do what you gotta do you do, yeah, and in the musical theater world I think that's way more forgiven.

Speaker 1:

In the opera world not so much. You know, you should be able to get through that. I'm wearing the shoes of Emma Matthews, who is one of my favorite Australian soprano.

Speaker 1:

Literally like she, her name was on my boots because she played the role before so you know, and so, yeah, there's all that pressure and so, yeah, performance anxiety is now a term. If I think about it, I had that. I wasn't sleeping some nights at all, so I'd be doing the show, you know, sword fighting with anthony warlow and like just wanting to have a nap. Yeah, wow, it was just, yeah, pretty insane. So I guess, to cut a very long story short, that I guess made me then get into the teaching that I do now. I just started to hate performing. I was also struggling to get pregnant at the time, so I ended up stepping away from it, said to my agent I just need to put this on hold. I'm not enjoying myself.

Speaker 1:

I ended up having to go through IVF to have children and I just the the feeling of, of not doing it felt so good, unfortunately at that point.

Speaker 2:

Well, you obviously listen to your body.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it will tell you yeah, the freedom of just not worrying about what my voice felt like, what I sounded like, was just felt so good that I ended up just not really going back. I did a couple of workshops of things, because I was kind of known for that, so I would just get offers. I couldn't audition. The anxiety was way too much any auditions.

Speaker 1:

I had to just stop auditioning at one point because I just was embarrassing myself there was a hand around the throat and just I couldn't make sound and I was like people are going to cotton on that. Rosie Harris doesn't have a voice anymore, you know Right. So I just had to back away because I was much better if I just walked into rehearsals first thing you know.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, I mean that journey took you to finding someone, or a bunch of things to help you and discover what your voice was like.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I found the beautiful Andrew Byrne, who's American, based in New York, and, yeah, he was life-changing. I was kind of like, yeah, well, this is, he came to the VCA. So I was teaching at the VCA. By this point, I started teaching at the VCA in 2011, I think, wow, in 2010. Something long time ago. There you go. I mean, you look so young to me. Oh stop, oh my.

Speaker 2:

God, you're just a totalist. I'm loving this.

Speaker 1:

It's the key to a distress no stress and no sleep.

Speaker 2:

Have kids. We have wonderful kids.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, they're gorgeous. Yes, you've certainly been very tolerable with one of my children in particular.

Speaker 1:

I love my kids? No, I do, they're great. But yeah, martin Croft got me teaching at the VCA and that was that was really great. So Andrew Byrne came and did some work there and I was like, who is this? This is very, a very interesting way to approach the voice. Maybe he can help me. So I reached out and we started to do zoom lessons and he was like, oh, they squashed a nerve, let's fire that up. And I was like, oh, okay, let's fire it up, let's go.

Speaker 2:

The probably opposite thing you would think someone would suggest is fire up the thing.

Speaker 1:

That's kind of shut down or. But I guess now we're I mean, there's a lot more knowledge about neuroscience now, so everybody's kind of talking about it, which is great, so wonderful. And yeah, he just did some things and I felt this old voice come out. But not only did I feel the old voice come out, I felt I can only explain it as my mojo. So I'm like I was just walking down the street and I was like I feel I feel swagger, I feel I don't know. It was like that was one lesson.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I felt like because you felt that shift. I felt that shift and I knew that, like not only had I lost my voice after that surgery, I'd lost a part of myself. I didn't have my presence anymore.

Speaker 2:

I didn't part of your expression my expression.

Speaker 1:

I didn't walk into a room and know how I was. You know, as a performer, you're very attuned to what you give, to what people then receive and what they give back, and that's what I, that's what I loved and that's what I, that it was so in me. And then that just gone, woke up from surgery, gone, and I was like walking around going why are people not reacting? This is weird, like what aren't I? So, anyway, yeah, that all really changed. So I guess that therefore changed my teaching. He became my mentor and not only my teacher, my friend, like yeah and so, and his influence on the VCA was pretty massive as well. Um, so, yeah, how wonderful.

Speaker 1:

I mean, you would have just been in heaven that after all that time of trialing and doing so many different things and having that performance anxiety to now finding someone after one lesson yeah, I definitely felt already before I met Andrew that I was getting a lot of students gravitating to me because they were a bit stuck. They suddenly were finding it hard to sing, nerves were getting the better of them, and I actually was doing some experimenting on a student of mine. There goes my scientific brain.

Speaker 1:

I cannot remember the condition but, um, when he was born he had this condition where your skull fuses, and so oh, yes, basically yes, oh, then the term has left me, but basically he had to have major surgery and get that skull because too much pressure, too much pressure, the brain can't grow.

Speaker 1:

It needs those joints, yeah. And so, yeah, I'm working with that student and and sort of trying to help him with things, and I did, for example you know, I've done it with you a snore, inhalation, and all of a sudden, the voice just popped out of nowhere and I was like, wait, what is this? So I just started to work some kooky stuff, basically because, also, it wasn't that long ago, but this is something. If we talk about the pros of covid, yeah, knowledge for voice has real.

Speaker 1:

My access to overseas knowledge has just really exploded, because you used to have to save a fortune and go for a trip to the uk or america and learned by observing teachers there, and I just never had the money to do that. It just, um, yeah, I just couldn't, and so I was trying to rely on texts, whatever books I could find, but you're sort of reading, trying to interpret, and so, hence andrew being the first one that really, like, opened my mind, and so he just, yeah, validated my, my instincts, and that was, yeah, a real turning point and so, and then, yeah, it just sort of opened my world. I, he's amazing as well. There's lots of resources of, yeah, um books on vocal pedagogy and so I just started to devour. And then youtube. I mean there's so many, um, yeah, people, if you know the people to watch on that there's obviously a lot.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, do you have any suggestions of maybe a few?

Speaker 1:

people um. John henney is great. I mean there's a kerry obit um I'll.

Speaker 2:

I'll definitely send a list of yeah and we'll add it into the show notes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, have a look after yeah there's an amazing school in the uk called voice study center and they have these amazing courses that you know it's like a lecture. They'll go for like two to three hours depending on what it is, and you know they're like 30 pounds, which I know with our dollar it's not amazing, but it's like the you know it's less than the cost of a lesson. You get to listen to this amazing person that's had, you know however, many years of experience of teaching. That's maybe just thinking outside the square. It's the latest research.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, wow, otherwise, we're stuck with this sort of and voices just evolving. There's so many things that I taught 10 years ago. We now know, and now it's actually this that's happening, not this, and that's amazing. And I think, um, as a teacher, I just want to keep my knowledge always growing and now, yeah, I feel like, yeah, lots of resources I can, I can throw I'm always about that with students as well like I teach, but I want them to understand. Okay, these are some great, like the buteyko method is, and Patrick McEwen is like an amazing writer on that. Again, that's a great book the Breathing Cure that I can recommend, wim Hof.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's just it's amazing all the research and all the knowledge that's out there now. That can I mean. There's no wonder why you're so excited to teach and help people, because back when you didn't have those resources. So I'm you know, I'm guessing that that's a big passion and you can see it with your teaching. I love working with you and yeah, it's been awesome yeah hey, performers, a quick break here.

Speaker 2:

Have you ever felt stuck in your career, struggling with things like self-doubt or performance anxiety? First of all, know that you're not alone, and even I've been there too, and I know how tough it can be, and that's why I'm really excited to share something special with you. We're kicking off the Dive's first ever 5-Day Mindset Challenge, from the 17th of June to the 21st of June, and it's 5 days focused on transforming your mindset and breaking through those barriers that are holding you back. We've got some amazing guest masterclasses lined up with industry pros like Luca Donato, sophie Holloway, carter Ricard, samantha Donemade and I'll be there too, of course.

Speaker 2:

If this sounds like something you are interested in and would love to benefit from, check out our link in the show notes or you can visit our website to sign up. It's going to be an extraordinary event and I hope to see you there. All right, let's get back into the episode. So, going into more of the body, I'd love that your teaching style is very much nervous, system, vagus, nerve, all of the juicy inside, mechanics of the voice. I'd love to talk a little bit about what's happening in the body when we're singing, either in a class or in an audition, and maybe we can talk about both.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, if I can try and generalize as much as I can, I guess, um, from from, I guess, a human perspective, I mean you've there's sort of like a bit of an adrenaline kind of we need to be in our sort of fight or flight yeah a little bit sort of have the energy to vocalize.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, that's kind of like there's there's sort of a bit of an adrenal rush, which is why I think when you walk into a more stressful environment like an audition, that can actually tip into something that's a little bit more uncontrollable. Hence performance anxiety. And you know, everybody knows, that the first few phrases of the song is always like woo-hoo, shaky ground. That didn't quite come out how I expected.

Speaker 2:

You have a little bit extra vibrato and everything, a little bit extra vibrato and everything.

Speaker 1:

Oh my god, where's my hand doing? I'm like on my lip, face shake like what you know?

Speaker 1:

all these things and your inner monologue is not the given circumstances that you set out for yourself yeah so, even just knowing that your body doesn't know circumstances, it thinks there are lions, it think it just feels the sensations of the nervous, of the adrenaline starting to fire up, and then it starts to sort of think that maybe you're in danger, so don't stand there and sing, run away, wow. So I think if, um, if we can kind of get to that other side of like, stand and fight and be the be, the calm, walk into the fight, walk into the flames, completely in control.

Speaker 1:

It's powerful, you know. Yeah, I use a boxing analogy for students often, because boxes they're in that startle reflex, you know, and you see them like loosening their jaw and rolling their shoulders and trying to keep the, the startle reflex from going into a brace, unless of course, they, you watch them they'll dodge and then they'll go they're ready, you know they're ready, like in the amateur ones that like not that I've ever boxed before but one can imagine.

Speaker 1:

So I guess there's a lot of things besides, obviously, the fact that you know there's the, the, the in-breath, the out-breath. As the air comes up, the vocal would start, you know, making this little noise, and then that vibrates in your in your resonator, in your old cavities, sometimes the nasal cavity, and then that comes comes out so much happening.

Speaker 1:

So much happening. But yeah, if we're sort of talking from like a body perspective, as you know, we have vocal folds for survival, primarily, like it's, to keep stuff out of our lungs. So then I guess we started grunting at a certain point and they start making noise and now we can do what we do with them.

Speaker 1:

I mean, it's crazy language language act and sing, yeah, all sorts but I think it starts with survival, as a baby like that cry and babies can cry for hours and they find that frequency that their mother will hear right and so it's instinctual, it's instinctual, and that's how I think it's. It's hard to hold on to that when you train, and also when it becomes a fear, when singing becomes something that makes you scared.

Speaker 2:

What if it's?

Speaker 1:

not going to come out right and I think as a teacher I have to be very delicate with that. And people come, you know, often from trauma of an institution. Or you know someone in school saying that you can't sing, or you know we've all got stories, or you cracked on a note somewhere and yeah to, you know trying to recover trying to recover from that you need to then have a have an experience of not cracking on the note.

Speaker 1:

yeah, whereas often, if, unless you're in a show night after note and that cracked note hasn't night after night, and that cracked note hasn't night after night and that cracked note hasn't left you unable to get out there again, it's mysterious. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Annoying and unforgiving sometimes. The mind and its power over yourself and going even back into you know what's happening with the body when you sing. What are some tips now that maybe you could give? For we're in the audition, we're standing there about to sing and the body, you're saying, is in that fight or flight. What are some tips that you would give to someone to help them stay in fight but also be aware of their body?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think obviously there's a lot of everybody's an individual, but there's a lot of tools you can do as far as, like breathing methods and it's. I mean, you would understand this as someone who does what you do, to know that. We all know that meditation and you know whether it's box breathing or whatever is really important to do. I teach a lot of people I'm included in this where meditation actually induces anxiety.

Speaker 1:

So I get more stressed if I try and control my breathing or try and breathe low. So the Buteyko Method has been a bit of a game changer for that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's great, Because I guess there's a lot of people on here that are listening. No, not another meditation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly where I just have to try and focus, which is exactly what I was trying to do, and then I'm getting more and more great, anxious yeah, so let's talk about that.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, so there's techniques there's things like um.

Speaker 1:

Basically, if you think about, it's like the gas exchange when we have carbon dioxide, we have oxygen, um, when your carbon dioxide levels get high, that then triggers us to need to breathe. So that's what gives us that feeling of suffocation and makes us breathe in.

Speaker 1:

And I remember sort of thinking about this years ago with um, free divers and going well, we can train ourselves to stay underwater for 10 or 15 minutes or more for some people like it's, and obviously some more like that is some communities in indonesia, for example, that that's part of their tradition, that they go, they all the breath, they swim quite deep, um, to sort of, yeah, get food from the florida ocean, like it's pretty crazy.

Speaker 1:

So thought, wow, we're humanly capable of that. Yet to sing through a phrase, you can get super nervous because what happens is the longer the exhale, the higher those carbon dioxide levels build as you're losing oxygen, and so it's all about helping your body tolerate high levels of carbon dioxide. So just doing things like breathing through your nose for two counts, exhale out of your mouth for six or eight counts, depending what your body is capable of in that moment, if you're really stressed before an audition, maybe four or six is where it's at and you can just like have a little kind of rhythm going, you know tapping on your knee, yeah I always find at for me and again, everybody's really different but something active like that and once you have the knowledge of oh, all I need to do is exhale for longer than I'm breathing in, and that is just because of the gas exchange that's going to calm my system.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's super helpful. Yeah, and even like going into a yoga class.

Speaker 1:

As soon as I say breathe low, I used to go into a panic right because you can't breathe low straight away, you're too fucking wound up, and so I always tell myself just breathe slow, just start with like something a bit slower, try and try and make it through the nose unless you're completely congested. Um, nose breathing is best, maybe out through the mouth if, depending on what you're being instructed or what the exercise is, and eventually, because of that gas exchange, even if you just have a little bit of a longer exhale than your inhale, if you can. But again, as soon as you stop pressuring yourself to breathe a certain way, you're actually going to calm your nervous system and be more present. So I also do like paper bag breathing. So I just get a paper bag and I put it over my mouth and my nose yeah and I seal it and I breathe it in and out through my nose calmly.

Speaker 1:

I set a timer for two minutes. Great, um, I urge people to try this. Some people will be like, hey, that was actually fine rosy piece of piss. Some people like, oh my, I feel like they're suffocating straight away because suddenly you're getting hit of carbon dioxide. So there is a thing called carbon dioxide therapy. There's a great book called James Nestor Breath New. Science of the Lost Art.

Speaker 2:

It's a great book, everybody knows it.

Speaker 1:

It's so good, so good. Again, another resource a great overview of his experience with with um, his own breathing troubles, but just lots of different breathing methods, and it goes into a bit of the history of why we can't breathe well as humans now, how we've evolved, um, so yeah, he talks about carbon dioxide therapy in there. So a paper bag is, you know, the best thing we got. You could use a plastic bag. You probably just want to have a little bit of oxygen going in. Do that for two minutes and you're already kind of helping your body cope with that sitting there for two minutes and having lower oxygen levels.

Speaker 1:

So then the idea is that you, when you sing through that phrase, your body isn't going to kind of freak out so much about the depleting oxygen yeah, wow and it will freak out more if you're in a stressful situation, because we get stressed and we go into that sympathetic nerve system kind of state and so we start using our more higher inhalation muscles to get ready to run away or fight the fight not the lower ones. That's parasympathetic. So yeah, that's like a couple of things that's wonderful and I think so, being being more present in the body.

Speaker 1:

Wim hof is really good for that. He's kind of flips the opposite. You hyperventilate, just to generalize you. You hyperventilate and then do breath holds so you get your over oxygenate and then you hold your breath and it's just incredible how present you feel during that um another great resource that you can actually get for free on youtube and he also has an app. I was doing it this morning actually. He has an app. I use the app Courses on there, yeah, so amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and his website has free mini courses. I like to breathe in through my nose personally, when I do it, and if I'm a bit blocked I kind of do a bit of that and then out through the mouth. If I'm blocked, I'll do slightly pursed lips again. There's sort of no right or wrong.

Speaker 2:

That's great, I mean there's so many helpful tips there for auditioning and even in a previous audition for myself that I did. I was sitting when you sit and you're getting ready to sit yeah, seeing and there's only two of you. It's.

Speaker 2:

There's so much space and all you want to do is crawl up and yeah I was sitting there and I just closed my eyes and I focused on the breath and doing either box breath or deep breathing, and something that I find helpful is affirmations convincing myself that I find when I say I'm strong, I know exactly what I'm doing, I'm in control and you just keep because there's going to be either you can choose between self-talk that's bad or good and so just taking those breaths are going to calm that body down anatomically as well, and then for the mind.

Speaker 2:

I just focus on a few affirmations. Try to convince yourself that it's all going to be okay. Oh, which is so perfect, and I think as well, when you're going into audition, we're not kind of suggesting that it's all going to go away because it's always been there. It's always going to be there. The body's going to react in this way, but I guarantee you're going to benefit from focusing on your breath and focusing on even a few of these little things. That will really help yeah, for sure, definitely.

Speaker 1:

Well, you need the adrenaline. Yeah, if you, if you've ever performed, when you know, when you get so used to a show and you're like god coffee give me coffee like you need it.

Speaker 1:

Oh my god, just about having the control. And actually, speaking of positive affirmations, I do that when I do my whim, half in the breath hold I, I circulate those in my mind. So I'm doing it in my practice and I'm doing it in those moments of where you feel really in control because you're seriously just controlling your nervous system back down after you've put yourself into a heightened state of fight or flight. And there is evidence now that hopefully in the next little while will be coming out more and more to show that if you put yourself into a self-induced stressful situation deliberately, then you're going to deal with it better in real life.

Speaker 2:

That's wonderful, I mean we talk about that, even with yoga, when you do power yoga.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes you're not aware of it happening, but you go through these different postures that you would never usually do and add on top of that this breath that's nice and long and deep. So that when afterwards I would get a toot at the horn or something I'm in traffic and you're just able to bridge the gap between responding so actively and getting angry to going actually like this is okay. Yeah, this is okay. It's sort of a different way to disassociate.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's not. It's sort of, I think, a healthy way to kind of just yeah, be present and not let things affect you as much. Um, also warming your nervous system down after shows. There's also about you warm your voice down but do you know some vagus nerve stretches or some breathe, some paper bag breathing or whatever, just to kind of bring yourself back down from that, otherwise you. That's why often you can crash and burn after three weeks I love doing a show you get sick and then you're like, why do I keep getting sick?

Speaker 1:

Because your body eventually has to shut you down. Yeah, because you just we're adrenaline junkies as performers, potentially.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, without knowing it. Yeah, I'd love to talk more on the vagus nerve.

Speaker 1:

Yes, because I know it's something I'm super passionate about.

Speaker 2:

And even to give I would love to even do in the studio a few exercises to what you just mentioned, to calm down after a show. That is a massive thing and when we all get told to cool down and do all the things.

Speaker 2:

But in my experience, and maybe you can vouch me too, as soon as that curtain comes down, people are like wrapped up and they just leave. They don't I mean, it's not everyone, but the majority you just don't even think about it, you switch off, you, you go well, the job's done and you leave everything to tense up, sometimes getting on a bus whatever it is, I'll calm down in my sleep, which, yeah, you may, but yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean vagus nerve. I would love to dive into that. Do you want to give the viewers and listeners kind of a quick little overview of what the vagus nerve is?

Speaker 1:

Yes, and listen as kind of a quick little overview of what the vagus nerve is. Well, yes, it's a cranial nerve. Cranial nerve 10 sits roughly here in the body. It controls many things.

Speaker 2:

It's a big deal and if you're listening in, it's just at the top of the behind the back of the neck, where they're kind of top of the. C1, C2 sort of area, yeah, yeah, yeah, where you can feel the top of your neck touch to your skull, yeah, great.

Speaker 1:

So that area and I know that like, for example, I was just at the physio and she's really loosening off this area, because if you're very braced and stuck through there, that's not a good state to be in for anyone in life, but especially not us performers wanting to vocalize with ease. Um, because we, we complete. When I release through there I feel like, you know, it's like my heart center opens, like everything just kind of drops open and I feel like it's a holding pattern we get stuck in and very hard to break. So it controls your digestion parts of your brain. Medics, uh, you know, singing, circulation, breathing, diaphragm, yeah, it's like so many things. It innovates to many, many different areas.

Speaker 1:

The longest nerve, cranial nerve, innovates to the back of the tongue, the palatoglossus as well. So I definitely, with my students, do a lot of stimulating that area, whether it's gargling I do again snore, inhale, k inhales, I mean all that stuff is great just to activate soft palate. We can look at it physiologically from like an old school singing training thing, but we're also stimulating our vagus nerve. So it's any wonder that's stimulating. Doing like a before you sing can actually suddenly the voice can land how you want. So yeah, and it controls your nervous system. Is is the big one. So basically, when you walk into that audition room and you're like it's your vagus nerve, that kind of helps level you out. It also, you know, helps fire you up when you need. So when you do a vagus nerve, stretch it, it relaxes you because it helps your nervous system regulate um yeah, the biggest nerve in the body, yeah, yeah yeah, biggest cranial nerve yeah in the body.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, the longest. So it's yeah, it's a it's pretty special one, it's pretty important it's pretty important and I feel like I mean it's always been there obviously but, the knowledge on it or the awareness of it is still quite fresh. I feel for a lot of yeah, it's just, let me get taught in full time, about vagus time and what, what role?

Speaker 2:

it's playing on your performing and yeah, no exactly.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I didn't know about it at all and this is all stuff that I find new and I just think knowing the science behind why we do meditation and yoga is, like, really important, and a lot of it's drawn from those ancient traditions, which is quite incredible, like the wim hof stuff and it's like you know.

Speaker 1:

So now, but but for me personally, just knowing because I was at a bit of a why isn't anything working? And then when you understand the nerve that you're trying to activate, then you go well, I've got a toolbox of things that activate it, your brain. They're not always going to work because your brain needs to be kept busy, it cottons on. So I don't know about anybody else, but I've got this great. You know, sometimes I find these yoga nidra little meditations because they're great for sleep. A lot of some meditation isn't good to do before sleep.

Speaker 1:

I think, so these ones are great, especially if you sleep terribly, which which I never slept well, but now, being a mother, yeah, um, and maybe we can add, I'll be able to add on to this episode a little freebie.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I've created a few different ones, so I'll have it.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing we'll have a little look and yeah, that's great because I find them so helpful and but it's good to have like a few that you can circulate, because I'll find that one will really work for me. And then I start getting anxious from it. I'm like what this was really working. Why isn't this working? Now it's like your nervous system goes oh, I see what you're trying to do here. I hear you're trying to calm me down so I can stop keeping you alive wow you know, and it's just like that's how I look at it.

Speaker 1:

So then I go, oh, okay, great, I've got to find another channel. Yeah, it's like when you gargle to stimulate your vagus nerve. Um, you'll mainly be gargling whatever you've got in your drink bottle, but change it up, so gargle and gargle for a good 30 seconds. You can take breaths whenever you need. You can change the temperature of the water lightly carbonated, salty water, lemon tea, maybe not your coffee, but you know, into that whatever just to sort of like, you know, warm water, cold icy water, just so that every time the brain's like, oh, what's it?

Speaker 1:

oh, yeah, you know, it's got a new something to play with you know whatever that distraction is, and so it thinks it's re-stimulating, it's very cool, and you're also stimulating cranial nerves next to the vagus nerve as well. So getting those so eye, eye work, eye exercises can can really help. That also releases. So looking um when you put your fingers on that base of the skull sort of area and you dart your eyes side to side, you should feel those muscles kind of move. You feel that, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So that's why I wouldn why, and you wouldn't even think that your eyes are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they're connected. So a lot of if you're having eye issues it can often be neck tension and vice versa sort of thing. So, neck if my neck, I've got bulged discs in my neck, an old lady, an old lady tailor, and so whenever I have issues with my neck, if I'm tight, especially in the upper area, my vision is not great. And it's not just because I'm you know my eyesight I've entered the era of eyesight deterioration. It's not just that. It can just be like, yeah, I've got my neck and so I've got some great, you know, eye exercises that my beautiful andrew burn has given me to do with that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so those exercises were stimulating, do you? Would you do those after a show, or is there separate ones?

Speaker 1:

it really depends on the performer. I think like, if you are, if you do tend to be quite anxious about what you're doing and again, I work with people who are in, some will work with people in lead roles, work with people in you know all walks of life and everybody you know. Some people are absolutely fine and like never get nervous until a certain point. There's always like something that unfortunately triggers that nervous system to just that stress bucket.

Speaker 2:

They call it, it could be a different character. All of a sudden, you're going into this and you're fine, and then all of a sudden oh wait, this is related to something when I was young, or yeah you've got to remember as well.

Speaker 1:

Your body doesn't need struggles to differentiate between real and not real. Yeah, and I definitely didn't really learn that at acting school and I actually thrived on the fact that I could just dive right into my characters and live in their existence and I'd go home and I'd feel like it was still in me. You know, it was like method acting is that what it's called? Yeah, but it's not healthy. You can't do that long term. So you need to, yes, dive in, and I'm always supportive of my performers that like to go hell for leather on stage.

Speaker 1:

I'm like great, how can we support you in this? Because I truly believe if we are connected, we are capable of remarkable things. Like, if you've got to do screams, the last thing you want to do is actually kind of hold back and filter can filter. Obviously there is a skill involved in that, but if we can make it as primal as we can, then it's. It's really going to stop the throat from grabbing and maybe second guessing the fear of damage or whatever. Um, so, yeah, characters can really trigger that nerve system. So, yeah, depending on the role you're playing, but a lot of my students have vagus nerve stuff to warm up.

Speaker 1:

Some do wim hof yeah some will then do wim hof in interval. Yeah, you probably don't want to do wim hof before bed, but again, I've got a student who loves doing wim hof before bed.

Speaker 2:

It really works for him. So it's really you really just and I love that there's no just one pill or one thing you really just got to explore and yeah be as in tune into your body and what you're doing and see what works, what doesn't work and it will always change because, we grow and we get older and if there's, you know again the pros.

Speaker 1:

I love being the age I am, because I'm not that old, but it's like, but it's like you go oh wow, I'm so different, like to what I was, and now those things that really worked even five years ago aren't really working the same now and I need to kind of explore new, new things. But yeah, it would be for performers it'd be like roll to roll. You know that it would sort of change. Did it stop again? No, just like processes, oh yeah, okay, great, I think it's still going.

Speaker 2:

It's almost like it gets to an end of a roll. Yeah, I don't know't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, so yeah, but definitely the warming down, I think, even if you feel like you're okay, I think it's so okay. There's a great book called Accessing the Healing Powers of the Vagus Nerve. Again, I'll put this all in the references.

Speaker 2:

Great.

Speaker 1:

And there's this wonderful woman that I found called Suki Baxter on YouTube. Who does? Woman that I found called Suki Baxter on YouTube, who does it demonstrates physically a lot of the exercises in that book wonderful, and so I always love it when I find that amazing resource. I mean, I do. I'm in the process of doing my own footage of exercises. I've got my, my vimeos um, they're hilarious, but I'm, you know, getting there. But yeah, it's just there's. There's great exercises that you can just try and and see how they sort of shift.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, definitely, we'll add those in for sure. Well, we're coming to the end of this episode. I mean, there's just so much awesome knowledge that's coming out.

Speaker 1:

Yes absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I would love to ask you a final question, and that is if you can go back to yourself this is you? Know pre-injury, pre-getting in. You've just finished even WAPA and you're getting back to your career. What advice would you give yourself?

Speaker 1:

It's interesting. I mean, everybody has a very different experience. Growing up, I don't think, was to learn to trust my instincts, hear my voice, to trust that how I instinctively wanted to do things was actually correct. If I could go back to myself, then it would be to do that, which is easier said than done, because I don't think I'm even fully there now, isn't that? I mean, I'm sure everybody can relate to that. But definitely don't live by the shoulds.

Speaker 1:

Question what doesn't feel right with people that you trust. Don't let anybody make from a singing perspective. Don't make anybody think that you not understanding something is your fault. They're there to help. Your instructors need to find a million different ways to explain the thing. If you can't understand it, they've got to find a way in. If something feels, yeah, confusing, yeah, always dig it out. And if that instinct is telling you that question, ask questions. Don't be ashamed. There's never a dumb question. So I guess that's what I would sort of tell myself and I think in some aspects of my life I I knew that it's just hard to actually put that into practice without the sort of yeah the right people encouraging you along the way.

Speaker 2:

If that makes sense, yeah, yeah so that's wonderful, I guess and I mean I know I said it was the last question but, I want to give one more, because you work with so many people in the industry now an amazing coach and teacher. What is there any advice you would like to give? We're talking about an industry that's ever-changing you know, is there anything that you want to give advice out to now, to maybe people that haven't worked with you or not working with you that you're seeing in the industry now that could use?

Speaker 1:

Ah yeah, that's a good one. It remind yourself that it is just a way that you are making a living to pay for the life that you have with your friends and family and um and not the only way to live and to know the different and know that your life, your real, true life, is just, is so colorful and amazing you do not need to find roles to play in order to get fulfillment, that your life is just as fulfilling, more and more fulfilling, actually and that these roles are little bonuses and you know so it's and it's okay to sort of find that second love.

Speaker 1:

I always tell my students like you need something when the show ends and you're waiting for the next one, otherwise you know it becomes a life or death and you know, no matter what that is, it is okay to study something else or, yeah, to just have a different, have another endeavor.

Speaker 1:

That you can be equally passionate about, and also because you get older and and women have babies not all, but you know and it's you know, regardless how anybody spins it. It is harder for us as performers because our body has to go through it and the struggles of that and I I think it's heroic the mums that have managed to get back on stage after that and you know, pumping milk in the in an interval literally on stage going god, it's gonna be like crazy, you know, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I guess that wonderful and of course there's many different references we're going to add into the show notes. But if people want to work with you or get in contact with you, what's the best way?

Speaker 1:

I will have a website soon, but at the moment they can email me on rosieharrisvoice at gmailcom.

Speaker 2:

Wonderful, great. We'll add all of that in. If you have any questions for Rosie, please email us at info at the divecomau. We'll get your questions answered and maybe your questions will even be featured on an episode up and coming.

Speaker 1:

Great, well, thank you so much for being here thank you for having me and yeah, hopefully it was helpful for everyone.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure it sure was awesome you've been listening to the dive podcast, the fastest growing support platform for performing artists. For more resources, tools, techniques and tips, you can head to our website, wwwthedivecomau. Be sure to subscribe, rate and leave a review for us, and if you feel like this episode could resonate with anyone else in your network, feel free to share it online or share it with a friend directly. Be sure to check us out on Instagram with the handle at thedivecomau, where we come on each week and share a little bit more about the behind the scenes of the podcast and any upcoming workshops, classes and offers with the Dive.