The Dive Podcast
Welcome to The Dive Podcast,
Brought to you by The Dive - the No.1 support platform for performers. Helping them to navigate the challenges we face as artists. The Dive Podcast was created for performers and by performers. Birthed out of the want and need for ongoing guidance and support within the hearts, bodies, and minds of the performing arts.
Helping you go from anxious, nervous, and unsure about your future. To create solid foundations that will set you up for life! Each week a SPECIAL GUEST will be interviewed on the show (who is a professional within the arts). As we dive deeper into their stories and uncover the golden nuggets of advice, you will begin to understand the tips, tools, and techniques required to make a long and healthy career out of the Arts.
Hosted by Taylor Scanlan, the founder of The Dive, a Musical Theatre performer with over 10 years in the industry, a Dance and Yoga Teacher as well as a Sound Healer.
Discover why The Dive Podcast is rising to become the No.1 support podcast for performers....pick the topic you are currently struggling with in the episodes below and we will see you on the other side! ;)
The Dive Podcast
37: How to Enjoy the Journey, Not Just Chase the Outcome with Hayden Baum
In this episode, I sit down with Hayden Baum to dive into the realities of life in musical theatre.
We talk about how to embrace the journey rather than chasing outcomes, the importance of pacing yourself in this demanding career, and how to shift from comparison to confidence.
Whether you’re just starting out or deep into audition season, this conversation will give you the tools to trust your unique path and enjoy every step of the way.
Tune in for some real talk and helpful insights!
Follow Hayden's Journey on Instagram HERE
Here Are Your Next Steps 👇🏻
Step One: 📝Get your FREE 3-Steps To Confidence Workbook
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Step Three: 👀 Check out the Momentum Program for aspiring MT performers looking to become professional
Step Four: 🎥 Watch our MOST DOWNLOADED Podcast Episode with Luca Dinardo
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Hayden, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I've wanted to do it for a long time.
Speaker 1:I know, and oh my gosh. I know this episode is going to be so awesome just because we really do get along and we've worked together in multiple different ways and I just think you're such a wonderful person but also so incredibly talented, and you have so much to share both on and off the stage, as Mr G would say, Just so we can get into it. Can you paint a picture for us what your journey so far has been with musical theatre?
Speaker 2:So basically, I've been working for the past eight years in professional musical theatre, going show to show, hopping, show, jumping, whatever you want to call it but before then I had trained at WAPA. I did the musical theatre course for three years and then I'd done the ballet course for a year before that, and I had grown up in Canberra and I had done amateur musicals and full-time dance there as well. So I did full-time there for about three years, but, yeah, within full-time dance there as well. So I did full-time there for about three years, but, yeah, within the industry. I graduated 2016, went on to the Korean tour of Cats with one, taylor Scanlon.
Speaker 2:in 2017 to Korea, did that, then came back to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory with Taylor Scanlon and then COVID hit and we went on to do COVID Cats tour, came back, did Mary Poppins with Taylor Scanlon, and then I've just finished on Chicago there you go yeah oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:And there have been a few other things in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. And oh my gosh, just even saying that back, I'm like how do we do all of that, especially like COVID cats, and it literally just feels like a whole nother lifetime ago. But it actually really wasn't that long ago. I know what was it like going from Canberra to now, like just finishing Chicago, like if you were like back in Canberra, like looking at yourself training and then Whopper and all that stuff, would you believe? Did you know that you were gonna definitely be in musicals? Or if I was coming to you from the future to tell you, younger self, oh, you're gonna be doing this, like what? Would you believe that?
Speaker 2:or I'm really blessed and thankful and I can't believe that it has all worked out. But I've always been supported and we just closed Chicago in Canberra. It was a really big full circle moment. I just turned 30. And to have all of my friends and family and teachers from dancing primary school, high school all of my friends there now have kids, so some of them were able to bring their kids to the show it's wild. But I think, yeah, I always knew that I was going to do this and everybody else knew that I would do it. So the fact that I have done it and I continue to do it, it's really special and I feel really blessed and thankful that it hasn't worked out, but it's because of those people that I've been able to do it that's it, and we talk a lot about that on this platform, about you.
Speaker 1:Really, you can do it alone, but it's you don't. It's so much harder.
Speaker 1:I can't do it alone I can't do it, but both of us have really looked for out for support and knowing that it's from that support and the support network and the people that are around you that can actually help you get from A to B place. And it's a great topic that we can go into, because this whole episode is basing around how do we enjoy the journey, not chase the outcome, especially for aspiring artists, when you're just graduating and you're like all you know is, or all you've been taught is I just need to book a show and everything else doesn't matter, and so I guess that desperation and chasing that outcome really breeds a bit of anxiety and a bit of stress into a lot of the people that are listening in.
Speaker 1:What's your kind of perspective on how to enjoy the moment? Say, if you were just graduating and you were doing the auditions, you were doing the do you're hustling, but you're really just coming from that energy of chasing the outcome. Maybe do you want to just share if there was any points in your career that this has happened for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had always been of that mindset and I think that it was the dance training, because you work and you strive, and you're at the ballet bar and you're doing everything and you're rehearsing all of these numbers over and over again and more often than not, when you're at dance school, you get that one concert, or you get the matinee in the evening and that's it, and you're leading up to that for six months, or you go on and you do a competition and you've got one shot in front of that adjudicator to get your solo right, everything that you've practiced, or your group number right.
Speaker 2:So I think that for me, going through training and coming out of that, I just had that one outcome mindset, because when you're at uni as well, you're performing maybe eight, eight performances of the show that you've rehearsed for five, five weeks, or at what were, we rehearsed for 10 weeks for our mid-year. So it was a long process for a really short amount of time, yeah, but I think, having done the eight show a week, you realize, oh, I've got to keep this going for probably a year.
Speaker 2:And then you're you get to the end of a tour and you're 530 odd shows in and it was in the first it was.
Speaker 2:It's always in the first couple of months that I go okay, it's about pacing myself through this. There's no big outcome at the end of it. It's about consistently going and flowing, and I think that's just the way that I've had to reshape my mind with. Outcomes is that, oh, I just have to show up, I have to be present and I have to enjoy myself, because it just makes it so much easier to again keep flowing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I love that you mentioned the word like pacing, because that's like the last thing that we do when we're in training, right? Next thing we're not even caring really about like how we're doing it, we're just like doing it, and that's something that you don't really learn in full-time. You don't learn how to pace because, like you said, we either are doing competitions and you're training for a year on one solo to go and perform it once, or at a few comps, and that's it and then as well, with that, that end of year, showcase that it's so funny we train.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh my gosh, we like train.
Speaker 2:You actually train harder than you do in a musical yeah, for like less of an outcome yeah, I think as well, though that training training gives you the like pacing skill, because you're normally, when you're training, you're going there from really like either late in the afternoon to late at night, or early in the morning till early in the evening. That's so right. Yeah, I think that kind of does set you up to be able to do those rehearsal weeks when you first start a show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that because I've actually never thought as though that through that discipline and actually showing up and doing it each day, that inherently you actually are learning pacing. I actually never thought of it like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I only just thought of it now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so true. If you're someone listening in or watching it and you're currently in full time, you just come out of it know that you already have the inherent skills to be able to pace, and maybe that's a good way to guide people that are just looking to get into auditions and getting into a show. That is about that long term career and it's not about that short term win, because I feel like there are a lot of artists coming into the industry now that are just literally super stressed, super overwhelmed because there's so many things happening right now and are focused on nothing but just getting in the gig, but there are so many other things that happen once you get there, and learning how to pace and do those sort of things are only going to be of benefit, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think one thing that has come into my life recently, if I can remember it, it's that you don't have to start from scratch every time. Life has prepared you for this. You actually, you take everything with you. So a lot of the time when you're starting a new job you think, oh, I don't know anything, I don't. You might know a few people in the cast, but you feel like you're learning everything from scratch. But all of those years of training and previous jobs and people you've met and have learned from all of that is within you to be able to continue on to the next job. So I think that it's just that massive amount of trust within yourself, trust within the community and trust that life has prepared you to be where you are right now.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that you brought up the word trust, because that is something that I feel, like both of us. Yeah, I guess many performers go in and about, but even recently it's been probably like the main word of my year or past two years. It's just like remembering to trust that where you are is where you're meant to be, and what's that kind of been like for you the word, when you think about the word trust in your career.
Speaker 2:It's a big one, because I think that a lot of us have this kind of imposter syndrome or a lot of us get scared to ask questions or ask for help. So I think that not only am I trusting within myself to be able to speak out or say, actually, I don't know in this situation, or can I have some help on this, it's about knowing that I can trust the group around me to ask the person next to me, hey, can you go over this with me? Or going up to our associate choreographer and saying, hey, I'm not getting this step, can you help me with this? So it's just knowing that you're in a safe environment and if you don't feel like you are, you can also open that up and just trust that you're going to be held and supported in that moment, which you can be. So does that?
Speaker 1:make sense? Yes, absolutely, and I was speaking to Charlotte Page, who's a swing, a new into the industry and we're talking about imposter syndrome and and as well, with a little bit of, she didn't realize how supportive the actual musical theater world is, because when we're training I'm sure you had similar training that like it was once I actually got into musicals I realized what it really was whereas when you're training you, you put it on such a high pedestal of, oh my gosh, like everyone that's in a show is just like so up in another level, and something that I found really awesome and I love helping people when they're coming into the industry is actually how much support there is, both from the creative team, but ultimately everyone's just wanting you to do really well, and there's a lot of. I think it's getting a lot better. I think we still have a long way to go as well, but would you agree as well that the industry and where it is now it's actually a much more supportive environment than many people may think when from training into?
Speaker 2:getting in Completely, and I think that it's because we all have a common goal at the end of the day, because it's a team, and that's the way I've always looked at it. We're all a team together. But I also think that it's more supportive now because we're not trying to compare each other to each other. Again, it's the common goal. We're all individuals coming together to share things together to create the best outcome. Individuals coming together to share things together to create the best outcome. So I think that's why the industry has gotten better and more supportive, because they realize that comparison is the thief of everyone's joy, so it's better to just all work together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I love it as well. I'm just taking words that you've passed on. You mentioned comparison and I love that. Once we're in the show, that you can okay, it's sometimes a little bit easier because you know that. Okay, I've been booked for a reason, everyone in here is here for a reason and we're all you can see around. Is that diversity? I'm okay, I'm this role because of this, but when, before going into auditions because the main people that are listening in are aspiring artists or they're auditioning, they actually suffer quite a lot with comparison. Has there been parts of your career that you've compared yourself to people around you, and how did you work your way through that?
Speaker 2:Completely, and it still happens every now and again. But the way that I get around it now is what's meant for me is meant for me. What's meant for me won't pass me by. So if I'm in an audition and I'm thinking, oh, look at that person. Oh, they're so good and I wish I could do that, I turn it around and I go oh my gosh, look at that person. I hope they get it, because if I get it, I'm going to get it, but it they're gonna get it. And that is so exciting to watch people be so amazing in an audition room and just go. This is what's meant for them. That is so cool. And then, if you do get it, at the end of the, at the end of the day, you go, oh, that's okay, great, but take the pressure off yourself in that moment and again realize what is meant for you is meant for you and support others, lift other people up, because then you'll rise with them.
Speaker 1:Yes absolutely. And it's such a fine line, isn't it? Because when you're in there, you're wanting it so badly.
Speaker 1:It's only normal to compare and be like, oh, what are they doing? But that quick shift in mindset of actually putting yourself on the outer and being like, look how amazing they are. Shift in mindset of actually putting yourself on the outer and being like, look how amazing they are. I also had a shift in mindset when I started training, because I started at Patrick's and one of my first classes was with Todd's and it was with nearly 40 just guys and I couldn't like basically eat the next day because my arms were so sore from doing so many pushups and I just remember thinking there's no way I'm going back they're so much better than me, and I remember having this shift in mindset of going they've got there because they've done something and they've learned something, and why not me?
Speaker 1:let's go for it and actually use the people around you. If they are performing in a way that is more impressive or that is something that is making you feel like you're not enough, you can actually use that as fuel to be like they've got there, actually like how amazing, and maybe I can chat to them.
Speaker 2:I'm like what are you?
Speaker 1:doing, Because I truly believe that even confidence everything is a skill that can be learned and by looking around you, instead of having it as a mirror to what is not working well for you, you can actually use that as a tool to be like, okay, that's actually what I need to work on and either chatting to them or, yeah, I feel like that's really helpful.
Speaker 2:I had a fitness trainer when I first started going to the gym. Say to me everyone's got to start somewhere. Don't look at the other people lifting heavier weights and think, oh, I've got to be up there now because everybody's got to start somewhere. So don't compare yourself to other people. Start where you start and work your way up.
Speaker 1:Aspire to things, that's great, but you just got to start somewhere yes, that's so true, everyone's going to start somewhere and when I actually been training and teaching students in this in some of the programs I've been training and teaching students in this in some of the programs I've been running and something with that is I actually it's a really good tool to use because when you're in an audition, you feel like you're all there at the one place at the one time, but in fact, like everyone is there, but on a completely different timeline of their training, a completely different timeline of where they're at mentally, physically, emotionally.
Speaker 1:It just feels like you're all there in that one place and that's obviously that moment. But I think that it's actually really can allow a lot of us to ease the pressure off, to be like they're there because of what they've done A, b and C and I'm here for what I've been doing. And I actually use that even today to be like oh cool, let's all just get together. We're in the audition room, we're all doing, whether you're just a fresh grad or you've been here for 20 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a whole. It's always a mixed bunch in auditions, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also think that bringing the energy into an audition room not only when you're doing like combinations or singing or whatever it's in the in the foyer, where you're like seeing everyone I love.
Speaker 2:I don't love auditioning, but I love going to auditions to see people that I know because now, and meeting new people and seeing fresh people and even recently there were people that I knew had just come straight out of WAPA and you can tell when someone is fresh out because they may be a little bit more nervous or they're doing this for the first time. So sitting there with his book and like sitting next to me and just shaking a little bit and I turn over and I was just like I love your shoes, it's so great that you're here, like you're doing exactly what you're meant to do, and boosting up that energy is one of the things I love to do at an audition. It's just checking in with people. Some people want to have their separate space, but I just think that bringing not the vibes but a vibe is a really nice way to get through auditions as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm so happy that you said that you don't particularly love auditioning, because I feel like there are a lot and a lot of people in the industry like they're so stressful and I honestly believe, like we are not designed to A do eight shows, but B to actually go into such a high-pressured situation and just do well, especially when you're starting out.
Speaker 2:It's really weird. It's weird to walk into a room and have 12 people sitting on a table and a pianist in the corner and they're like just stand on that X and show us what you got for the next three minutes. It's terrifying and weird and all you can do is try to connect, try to center yourself and you go. This isn't what I do.
Speaker 1:I get to stand on a stage normally and perform for all you people in the dark coming back on like the main topic of how to enjoy the journey and not chase the outcome like what would you say? How could we help some students think about that in terms of auditioning, because a lot of people listening in are in the audition phase right now.
Speaker 1:They're getting rejected, or they're getting to the callbacks and they're maybe not getting the outcome. How can artists enjoy that journey of auditioning, even though it's stressful and like we just mentioned? But is there ways that they can enjoy that process and not be so hyper focused on chasing the outcome of just getting into a show right?
Speaker 2:knowing that it's fleeting as well. This is a moment. It's not to put the pressure on it, but it's gonna happen, so why not enjoy it? And it's another moment to perform. It's a moment to share what you have prepared, or your gift. I like to have this like orb of light for myself, so like my hands are clasped and then I'll just open everything out and it's almost like all this light is going out.
Speaker 2:That's the way I think about it, but it's a moment to share, and it's taken me a really long time to get to that point, because more often than not, you're just thinking about everybody judging you in this moment, but it's nothing to prove and only to share. So if you can go into that mindset, when you go to audition, when you go to class, when you do anything, it's all meant to be enjoyed, we're all meant to be having fun. So I think that's the best way to enter into it, because if you get the outcome of booking a show after that's exciting in itself, and then you get to do the work, and if you can remind yourself to have fun along the entire time, that's what's going to be best yeah, I think that's like a motive for life as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, completely anytime that, because actually that allows you. When you're bringing fun and curiosity into life, you actually make the pressure of it so much less.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think it gains you a bit more perspective because I really love doing that is getting perspective on. It actually allows you to step back, as though you're getting like a bird's eye view of your life in the moment. Yes, it's a high pressured situation auditioning, even performing but if you just step back as though you're like pulling your head away from it a little bit and go what am I actually?
Speaker 1:what are we actually doing here? Am I actually in danger? Because that's what's happening in the body when we're actually putting ourselves in a situation that we don't really know what the outcome is going to be. Automatically our body goes into this Fight or flight yeah, fight or flight moment and just allowing yourself to step back and go. What are we actually doing here? And it could be. For example, I remember doing a recent audition at dance world and right there in melbourne, across the street, like one street away, is where my mom lives and I'm like oh, the other week I was literally just walking through here having a coffee and a walk with my mum.
Speaker 1:Like allowing yourself to actually pull yourself away and be like oh, I'm actually not in a stressful situation, I'm just going to have fun, I'm going to just enjoy the moment. If I stuff up like I remember even going into some auditions and not getting the high notes and I literally was like oh, good morning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it was 9am. Yeah, completely, and the panel.
Speaker 1:All laughed, and the panel all laughed. But by having that kind of fun and letting things go a little bit more, releasing that chase energy, I think it actually allows you to do a lot better because you're not so gripped by you have to do so well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, completely. And I think that's what harks back to me being in the foyer at an audition and chatting to people I know, or seeing people or trying to. It's a way that I probably am trying to calm myself because it just makes me feel a bit more at ease. Because then I realise I'm just here with. I'm here with my friends, I'm looking at a panel of people that I know in some capacity. They're not scary, they're just people, they're people I may know. So, again, in that moment, just sharing with the people I know it's calming, it's fun, it's nice, it's enjoyable.
Speaker 1:It's nice, it's different, it's unusual, it's nice, it's different, it's unusual, it's nice, it's different, it's unusual.
Speaker 1:I've loved talking to you today and it's just so wonderful to have you. I feel like we covered so many different things from gosh, getting that discipline, from your training, learning how to actually pace you actually already know and I actually really love that, because when you are going into the industry and you're auditioning, you feel like you're so far away from industry experts. But I always teach and help people to realize like what you've learned right now in your training has actually given you all the tools that you possibly need to start having an industry and to start getting in the industry, rather and you know actually performing the shows. I feel like we learned so much of that. So I love that you've spoke about that and how we've actually, from that discipline, you've actually learned a lot about pacing. I really loved you mentioning you don't have to start from scratch again. That is so important to learn that we're actually always evolving, we're always learning, always growing, and to just come into each experience with that. And also, yeah, I think we spoke about lots of things Trust.
Speaker 2:We did. It's all there.
Speaker 1:It's all there. It's all there, so it's wonderful to have spoken with you, and I'll make sure to add your Instagram to the show notes as well, if people want to connect with you and follow your journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for being on. Thanks Toto.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll see you soon. All right, bye.