Unpacking Truths

The Inclusivity of Salvation: Expanding Our Understanding of God's Love

• LOC Church • Season 1 • Episode 136

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Could the path to heaven be more inclusive than traditionally thought? Join us as we challenge conventional beliefs by exploring the teachings of Jesus and the dynamic interpretations of salvation. We scrutinize parables from the Gospel of Matthew that depict the division between those deemed 'in' and 'out' of heaven, and probe the intriguing concept that salvation might come through faith rather than deeds. You'll hear about Richard Rohr's inclusivist theology, which suggests that Christ’s redemptive presence may not be confined to Christians alone, offering a broader scope of divine grace to those from varied cultural and religious backgrounds.

Journey with us as we uncover inspiring tales like those of Jamie Winship and Mother Teresa, illustrating the omnipresence of God's love and the transformative power of living one's faith through actions. Discover how the concept of hell might be a self-imposed distance from God rather than a place of eternal damnation. Amidst these profound discussions, enjoy a light-hearted segment on the independence of teenagers and the parenting challenges it brings. Tune in for insights that could reshape your understanding of faith, salvation, and the boundless love of God, and find encouragement to embody Christ's love in your daily life.

Help share this podcast with others, so they can experience the freedom of God's truth, and we unpack it together! Like, share, subscribe or visit unpackingtruths.com for more info!

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Speaker 1:

All right, today, on Unpacking Truths, we are going to be unpacking an incredibly important topic. We know from the Disney movie all dogs go to heaven, so that's a guarantee. But do all humans go to heaven? Do all people go to heaven? What about that neighbor that lets his dog poop on your yard all the time that you see through your window? Go to heaven. I don't know what about your in-law that drives you nuts on purpose and you know they're doing it on purpose. Did they go to heaven, Kendall?

Speaker 2:

Well, that's what we're talking about today, Mo.

Speaker 1:

All right, so how's that answer?

Speaker 2:

How's that non-answer for an answer. I'm Pastor Kendall.

Speaker 1:

And I'm Pastor Mo.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into God's timeless truths for our lives today.

Speaker 1:

Grab your coffee. Open your hearts and your minds. Come take this journey with us, as we unpack God's truths.

Speaker 2:

Well, this is a topic that people have talked about and wrestled with and, you know, through the centuries and you know, christians of all different stripes and styles have asked questions about this. So where I thought maybe we'd just start is not a bad place to start Start with Jesus.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's a good place. He might be the way, the truth and the life. We're not sure, though. We're about to unpack that for you. No, he is.

Speaker 2:

He said it and I agree and you agree, I do, but one of the places where Jesus in a number of his parables and the way I found these parables is I just went on Bible Gateway and looked up weeping, because I wanted to find all the parables where he talks about those being cast out to weeping and gnashing of teeth yes.

Speaker 2:

So, and I was struck, a lot of them are from the gospel of Matthew, which makes some sense, and maybe we'll get into that later, but where there's a number of these places, where I mean the famous one, the sheep and the goats, where, you know, divides the right and the left, where the parable of the great feast, where all are welcome, but then one is thrown out to darkness.

Speaker 1:

He's not dressed right, he's not dressed right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a whole, nother, we should just do a whole one on that there was a themed party happening.

Speaker 1:

You got to get the right clothes on, yeah, and he didn't.

Speaker 2:

And so there's just these places in Matthew 8, matthew 22, matthew 25, where a number of the parables that Jesus tells have this sense, where at the end there's a division that happens and that these are in and these are out. And so there has been that sense from the beginning, as well as other places, that there is this division that happens at the end, that some are in and some are out, and other scriptures talk about how do you know whether you're in or not, because then Jesus also talks about the place of not everyone.

Speaker 2:

who calls me Lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but theologically and as good folks of the Protestant Reformation, it's by faith that we are saved and not works.

Speaker 1:

You know, it's by faith that we are saved and not works, and yet, yeah, and yet I think it kind of comes down to like how do we view Christ? Right? So it's, you know, when I think about this, I think about a recent book. I love theology, so I love the different ways of thinking about God, and so one of the books that I've really kind of picked up and been intrigued with is a book by Richard Rohr. He's a Franciscan priest and he's pretty. He walks the edge in some ways.

Speaker 1:

It's an inclusivist theology, right Like so he, and I figure it has to be pretty good if he hasn't been kicked out yet by the Pope, and I figure it has to be pretty good if he hasn't been kicked out yet by the Pope, so it's all right.

Speaker 1:

So this idea is that salvation is through Christ alone right, but it extends to those who maybe aren't considered Christians. And so the idea is that we know that Christ, everything was created in and through Christ, and Christ is within all things and all of creation, and so the very presence of Christ makes God's self known right in indigenous, with indigenous people that may have never, you know, been evangelized or personally heard about Jesus, the man and people. So Christ comes to people all over in different ways, and they can still.

Speaker 2:

This is Richard Rohr talking. Yeah, yeah, this is still yeah yeah, I'm explaining the inclusivism theology. Okay, which he calls it the universal Christ, is the title of that book.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, the universal Christ is the Because, and a lot of it comes out of the gospel of John, the understanding that Christ has been there since the beginning, even before creation, right, and so the presence of Christ moved in and through the man of Jesus. And so the presence of Christ moves in and through other things in other places, through other cultures as well, and Christ and God will always make God self-known, and so it doesn't need to look like proclaim that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, say these words, or you have to say I am a Christian, have to say I am a Christian. You have to have a relationship with Christ, a personal relationship with you, know Christ, knowing God, and so I think that's, I mean it's, I think it's a really neat and interesting way, and he uses a lot of scripture to back up his thoughts as well. You know this idea that Christ's redemptive work is beyond Christianity. What do you think about that?

Speaker 2:

Well, mo, I've always been intrigued throughout in reading scripture. There are places where, I mean in the Old Testament, god uses Cyrus to free the people and in the prophet Isaiah says Cyrus, my son. I mean that God is using. So God is clearly at work in people beyond the Jewish people or the Christian people, so that clearly has shown up. There are also scriptures in the Old Testament, again in Isaiah.

Speaker 2:

I'm just going back to Isaiah, chapter 2. In days to come, the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established as the highest of the mountains and shall be raised above the hills. All the nations shall stream to it. That this vision of in the last day, god is going to draw all people to himself. In Isaiah 25, you have that also. On this mountain, the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine, and he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples. The veil was wanting to draw all people and God would draw all people to himself.

Speaker 2:

So there is some of that universalist themes in some scriptures, Old Testament and a little in here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's not universalism. It's not like universalism, right. It's the understanding that you look at Christ in a more cosmic way. In Genesis it speaks about we will make them in our image, right, and that's where the Trinity comes out of Father, son and Holy Spirit, and Son is Christ, the very presence of Christ, and so it's just a more universal understanding of Christ.

Speaker 2:

Well, you're right, we've used universal in two ways. You used it one way and I really started using it in another way. So that's maybe a distinction we should have clarified. So that's maybe a distinction we should have clarified. So Richard Rohr is talking about Christ being Christ, the Logos as John talks about it present in Jesus, but maybe present in other ways in the world.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, christ made, so God became incarnate, so Christ became incarnate through the man of Jesus. And so that's.

Speaker 2:

Incarnate meaning in flesh, yes, in flesh yeah.

Speaker 1:

In human form, in the man of Jesus, but also, all things have been created in and through Christ, and so that's how we have the presence of Christ in us as well, and Christ God makes God self known. So let's go on that a little bit.

Speaker 2:

One of my concerns with that, my hesitancy with that sort of viewpoint that Roar lifts up, is that you can end up in this place, of that you can. How do you discern what is truly Christ in showing up in some other culture if you don't have the explicitness, the specificity of Jesus? Because you could end up blessing anything and everything and say, well, that's the Christ in that culture, when maybe it isn't really.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, and the understanding of that is that God is not changing, right? God is who God is, which is you know. You see it through the fruits of the spirit, through love and generosity and self-control, and these things make themselves known. This is the understanding, right? These things make themselves known in other cultures across the world, whether anyone specifically told them about Jesus Christ, the man and God, uh, having come to earth for us, and the whole story, right, the whole story of you know.

Speaker 2:

And I could go at that same way in a theologically from a different place is that, if we were all created in the image of God, that there is still some of that inherent goodness, of that creation of the image of God in all people everywhere that can recognize good from evil. I mean Paul even talks about in Romans 1, they all should know, because we are created.

Speaker 2:

So there is that sense For me. I just keep coming back to the that to me, the uniqueness of Christianity, or part of the uniqueness, is that we said God revealed himself most clearly in flesh in the person of Jesus. And so that's because there are other value systems that are out there and that in some level I still need to judge those value systems, or I assess them through the lens of Jesus.

Speaker 1:

And I think what this does, so what this book does right the universal Christ and this understanding does is it helps kind of answer the question if God is such a loving, good God, then explain to me how children or people in other areas of the world that never, ever hear about Jesus, so they just die and they don't get to be with God, they don't get to be with the one who created them and made them. That makes absolutely no sense, and so this kind of fills that space, because it's not saying that— it's more addressing that sort of question.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, because it's not saying that if you heard about Jesus and how God came and the whole story right of what God has done in and through you know the Jewish people and on, and you deny it or you, that's different right, and so it's addressing Christ, making you know God, making himself known in ways that are just beyond our understanding at times, and it answers some of those questions as well.

Speaker 2:

And you know, in those places, when someone has asked me through the years whether it's in a confirmation class or someone else, well, what about people who never heard about Jesus? Are they all going to hell?

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I go like the God I know is a gracious God, God is going to handle that. I don't need to be, that's a decision I don't have to make, I don't have to understand. But the other thing for me is, I think the one. So there's the universal Christ, there's also a universalism which is the idea you bet that where everyone goes to heaven in the end.

Speaker 2:

And that's another idea and that was some of the scriptures that I was pointing to of the idea that is the God of grace and love going to eventually transform everyone to want to respond to him.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, and so that's the hard part, right, Like if the big story is. That's why I'm kind of digging and appreciating this understanding of Christ in a new way the big story if it is God wanting to bring all people to himself, make everything whole and new again, it would make sense that God would work in ways that aren't just within this box, right?

Speaker 2:

But again. And so, yes, the big tension for me with that, and while there's some intrigue with that, the big tension for me is all of the things that I heard Jesus clearly say, especially the great commission at the end. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you, that there is a commission upon Christians to share who Jesus is. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so that the danger for me of this, you know, when people talk well, all people are saved, because everyone's kind of you know, because a loving God wouldn't connect For me, we're then undermining so much of what Jesus called us to be about.

Speaker 1:

See and I don't think it needs to do that because we don't have to you know, jesus says you put your hand to the plow, don't look back, or you're not fit for the kingdom of God, right? Paul says don't be wishy-washy, you can't sit on both sides of the fence, right? So if you're either all in or you're all out, so you're either following the ways of Jesus and going, either following the ways of Jesus and going, regardless of how hard it is, regardless if you're comfortable or not, or you're not. So there is this understanding of kind of more black and white when it comes to that. But I think that I would, even when we think about Christians, when I think about myself even Well, that's always the best place for us to come back to Mo.

Speaker 2:

You're right, Go ahead.

Speaker 1:

When I think about Christians and myself, right this understanding that yeah, I can say Jesus is my Lord and Savior. But if I'm not living a life that looks like that, if I'm not knowing what I need to do, that's in Scripture how I need to have relationships with people that forgiveness is not an option, it's a requirement, it's a commandment. If I'm not living these things out, then really scripture says you're on the other side, you're not fit for the kingdom of heaven, like so you're out anyway. So it is a king. That's why thank you Jesus, literally, that we are always forgiven again and again and with that same kind of gracious pouring out on us right to make us new. God wants to do that in other ways, with those, maybe, who don't get to hear about the gospel message.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I have no trouble with the idea that God can work in other ways and cultures before they have heard of Jesus, and I like where you're holding it back to. But those of us who have heard, we're called to a response. We're called to you know. For God so loved the world that he sent his only son that whoever believe in him should not be condemned but be saved. I just brought it up John 3, 16, because I also love John 3, 17,. That they may not perish but have eternal life says in 16. But in verse 17,. Indeed, god did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. That salvation does come through Jesus. How does it go out to people? That's on God. But we are called to keep pointing to the Jesus who we have come to know, who gave his life on the cross for us and taught us what I believe are God's ways, trying to draw the world back to himself.

Speaker 1:

No. So and here's a really kind of interesting thing that you say that. So there, yes, absolutely, there's tons of scripture for days that we can name. Matthew 7,. Jesus is the gate, the way. 1 John 5, 11. The eternal life is only through God's son. 1 Corinthians 3, 11. The only foundation is Jesus, right.

Speaker 1:

So there is all these things, and I cannot but think of Richard, or not Richard Rohr, jamie Winship, who you know worked for the CIA. He did a lot of dismantling of terrorism in different countries and he kind of takes this approach to where Richard Rohr is going, that a little bit that you don't have to. He's in a world, part of the world, that's mostly Muslim and he's like they don't need to stop being Muslim, they just need to meet Jesus. Yes, they need to know Christ, right. And so he literally introduces people to who Jesus is and doesn't say like you have to, you know, step away from being Muslim, but he welcomes in a relationship with Jesus and so many of them, their lives have been transformed. So I think it's also this understanding of like we don't have to say to people you are no longer Jewish, right, we have a wonderful woman who works here, candy. She's Jewish. She's still Jewish. She's not not Jewish because she believes Jesus is the Messiah.

Speaker 1:

And so when we do have that opportunity to introduce and to make other people disciples and to know the whole story, I do think it is our responsibility.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know one of the. So I think where we're agreeing is that it is about what God has done through Christ and that Christ we meet Christ, the third person of the Trinity, through. We meet him through Jesus. The logos the Christ may have made God's will known in other ways, but we have to keep pointing to Jesus because that's where we've seen it in flesh.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so part of this to account, but think of Mother Teresa and when I was in Kolkata, india, and really the understanding of you know, show people Jesus daily. Use words when necessary, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, St Francis.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, St Francis. And so she really lived that out. That you know. It's about what you do. It's about making your beliefs your life and so making worship your life. It's not just Sunday. You live that out on an every day, and maybe sometimes words aren't needed, and for her many times they weren't. And yet people came to know Christ because of the way she loved them and her true belief and why she gave her whole life to this, was that their experience of Christ. For those moments before they passed from this life to the next, she fully believed that that encounter then allowed them to go, be in the presence of their creator and of God.

Speaker 2:

Well, and one of the other, and we're getting low on time here. But one of the other things I wanted to lift up, mo, is that people have wrestled with is, oh, you're in, and God saying to that person, you're out. That it really was about that through Jesus we meet God's love and that what heaven is. What heaven is. It's not about streets of gold and fish that jump onto my line that what heaven is about is being in the presence of God, being in the presence of love, being in the presence of Jesus' grace for us.

Speaker 2:

And in his book the Great Divorce, what he describes is like these people taking this bus ride from hell to heaven, and God keeps reaching out to people and wants them. But they come into heaven and they don't want. It's too loving for them, it's too God-focused. They want their life to be focused on themselves. So it's not God consigning them to hell. They consign themselves to hell because they don't want to be in the presence of the wonder of God's love and grace. They want the world to revolve around them and God's saying now the world finally revolves around the love that I have for you and they reject it, that it's not this God condemning, it's them rejecting, and that, to me, gets God off the hook of condemning, and so I've always been that. To me, god off the hook of condemning, and so I've always been.

Speaker 2:

That to me, frees God to be the loving God that God is and that we don't have to have him consigning this person in and out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I do think we. I love that, but we do, and I do think hell is separation from God right, and so God is continuously pursuing us. I think the how is what we need to be far more open about the truth that God is mysterious. God's ways are not our ways, and for us to even think we could comprehend them fully or understand them or put them in a box, I think is foolish of us, because God wants to make all things whole and bring all things and all peoples to himself, and so why would God not do this in some really creative and different ways? And people only come to know who Jesus is in and through people, right?

Speaker 2:

I think. But as we've also said, mo, the tension on the other side being open to the mysterious ways that God works, but also not this like well, god's loving, so God's going to make it work?

Speaker 1:

No, it's not a cheat that we become.

Speaker 2:

you know where Jesus said not everyone who calls me Lord, lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because we can get this arrogant sense like well. I'm good, you're good, it's all good. God's got to love us all, us all. But our response to letting that love transform us and being open to the I mean the word salvation literally comes from salve, s-a-l-v. Healing the healing that God wants to do in our lives. If we resist, that, god doesn't force himself on us. So that to me, the distinction is are we open to it? Because, God keeps coming to us.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I think it's. When we talk about cheap grace too. I think it's important to say you know, people who go to church all the time are in the church, profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior and yet don't live those things out right? Do they go to heaven, do they not? Like you're professing it with your mouth but you're not living it out, and so that becomes a space, too, where it's kind of like, because there's scripture that shows it's not just professing with your mouth, it's also with your life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think this is where and then remembering Matthew 7, we don't judge.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so I think we need to continue to proclaim Jesus, we need to say it's all about what God has done, not about what we do. And yet Jesus wants to lead us on a journey in our lives and we just keep saying that, and how God works it out in the end, we leave that up to God. We just keep doing what he calls us to do.

Speaker 1:

Otherwise we have no idea if they're going to heaven or not. We're still unpacking, guys. We need your help to continue unpacking. But I would love to hear I don't know about you, but I would love to hear what you guys have to say on this topic, what your thoughts are, because this can get deep. It does, it really does.

Speaker 2:

It does, and so like, share and if you have comments, please do that, and if you have other ideas of topics we want to wrestle with together, we invite you to send those in. Next time, on Unpacking Truths, is there a favorite costume you had as a child or a favorite thing? Oh, how long did you trick or treat Pastor Mo?

Speaker 1:

Well, I, you know, I trick or treated with my kids for a long time and I used to do the whole thing where you're like, oh, I have to check that candy, and of course I only checked like the really good chocolate ones, Smart smart mom, but they caught on to me pretty. Yeah, they did and then. So I had to start bringing my own bag and pretending I was collecting for the sick kid at home.

Speaker 2:

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1:

Every year there was a sick kid at home.

Speaker 2:

I just tried to you know leverage with my kids to say, hey, my protective presence should earn some sort of reward. Like the Heath Bars or the Three Musketeers.

Speaker 1:

They're like we're 16, Dad, we're fine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:

You don't have to come with us. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking Truths. If anything that we discussed sparked any ideas or you have any questions, we would love for you to go to unpackingtruthscom, or you can also email us at unpackingtruths at locchurchcom.

Speaker 2:

And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the podcast, because you doing that allows other people to connect to this content and grow with God as well.

Speaker 1:

Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved.

People on this episode

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Pastor Kendall Koenig

Host
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Pastor Maureen O'Connor

Host