Have you ever pondered the wizardry that large format barrels work on wine? Sit back with your favorite glass as we pay homage to our adored Jabrone Gang from Patreon and set the stage for a laid-back bonus episode brimming with wine wisdom and heartfelt stories. In a special nod to Becca Hines, we embark on a conversational journey through the nuances of winemaking, from the tender embrace of punch-ins to the daring heights of barrel stacking, ensuring no stone is left unturned in the pursuit of oenological excellence.
Navigating the labyrinth of constructing a winery during the unpredictability of a pandemic could unnerve even the most seasoned vintner. But not us—we've mastered the art of 'Winery Tetris,' transforming space constraints into an intricate ballet of gravity and innovation. Envision a winery where every inch is maximized, and every tank tells a story of efficiency and forward-thinking. We pull back the curtain on our space-saving secrets and how a move to grander digs has unleashed a wave of creativity, allowing us to embrace the avant-garde in fermentation tanks and take the soul of our wine to new horizons.
Finally, we strap on our parachute of nostalgia and leap into a patchwork of personal reflections, from the exhilaration of bungee jumping to the cherished sneakers that have walked the vineyards with us. We toast to the rare grape varietals like Syrah and Picardin that set our Washington site apart, and share in the collective spirit that unites every wine lover. Each tale, like every bottle, is a celebration of the bonds we forge through shared passions and the courage to take that next audacious step—whether it's into the sky or into uncharted vineyards.
Have you ever pondered the wizardry that large format barrels work on wine? Sit back with your favorite glass as we pay homage to our adored Jabrone Gang from Patreon and set the stage for a laid-back bonus episode brimming with wine wisdom and heartfelt stories. In a special nod to Becca Hines, we embark on a conversational journey through the nuances of winemaking, from the tender embrace of punch-ins to the daring heights of barrel stacking, ensuring no stone is left unturned in the pursuit of oenological excellence.
Navigating the labyrinth of constructing a winery during the unpredictability of a pandemic could unnerve even the most seasoned vintner. But not us—we've mastered the art of 'Winery Tetris,' transforming space constraints into an intricate ballet of gravity and innovation. Envision a winery where every inch is maximized, and every tank tells a story of efficiency and forward-thinking. We pull back the curtain on our space-saving secrets and how a move to grander digs has unleashed a wave of creativity, allowing us to embrace the avant-garde in fermentation tanks and take the soul of our wine to new horizons.
Finally, we strap on our parachute of nostalgia and leap into a patchwork of personal reflections, from the exhilaration of bungee jumping to the cherished sneakers that have walked the vineyards with us. We toast to the rare grape varietals like Syrah and Picardin that set our Washington site apart, and share in the collective spirit that unites every wine lover. Each tale, like every bottle, is a celebration of the bonds we forge through shared passions and the courage to take that next audacious step—whether it's into the sky or into uncharted vineyards.
Alright, alright, Jabroni Gang. Welcome Jabroni Gang. So Is this okay? Okay, XLR cable almost came off the mic. Are you aware of the Jabroni Gang?
Speaker 2:
I have no idea what the Jabroni Gang is to you.
Speaker 1:
The Jabroni Gang. There are a bunch of wine Jabronis on the Patreon. The Patreon they pay a certain amount per month. They're here to support the show and the channel. They get extra episodes and different exclusive things.
Speaker 2:
I love it.
Speaker 1:
So they get early access to all the episodes and also an extra episode every week and certain people get to give the option to weigh in and ask questions, to ask on the podcast.
Speaker 2:
I love it.
Speaker 1:
So far no one's done that, but we have a few people that are.
Speaker 2:
Where you at Jabronis, Come on.
Speaker 1:
Come on, man, becca, let's go Calling you out. Becca Hines Ask us questions, but yeah, this is about the time where I pop a Zinsky in and we just have a good old fashioned bullshit time.
Speaker 2:
I love it, man. It's fun, I love it. How do you become a Jabroni Gang member?
Speaker 1:
You go to patreoncom slash official Bungpod.
Speaker 2:
Official.
Speaker 1:
Yep. And then you join the Jabroni Gang. You can pay a certain amount a month. There's like three different tiers and you get different perks on each tier.
Speaker 2:
Nice man, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1:
But yeah, the basic tier is like early access and behind the scenes snippets. Whenever we get entertaining ones this was Our behind the scenes stuff was really fun, so maybe I'll throw in there, and then they get an extra episode per week, just like the other people too. So it's fun. It's a little unhinged, so you basically can say whatever you want. My only rule is just don't talk shit about people, and that's just. I think that's a rule that you always go by.
Speaker 2:
You should just live by that. That's the only rule. That's a rule of life. I think you can say anything.
Speaker 1:
All profanities, all the dick jokes that you want, all the bunghole jokes that you want, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Well, I do touch a lot of bungholes in my lab work.
Speaker 1:
What's your favorite bunghole that you've touched? You?
Speaker 2:
know what. That's a good question, even though I work with a lot of bungholes. We use a lot of large format barrels in the winery, so 500 liter punch-ins, oh yeah, and I love what they do to the wine, just the way that the OTR and the aging happens in.
Speaker 1:
What's OTR for those people?
Speaker 2:
Oxygen transfer rate.
Speaker 1:
Let's go Nerd alert.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, just the way that happens. At a large format vessel. You're talking about a bigger volume of wine. So a punch-in is what? Double a barrel? It's a little bit more than double a standard barique. So a standard barique, a French size barique, is 225 liters or a burgundy style barique is 228 liters and we're using a lot of 500 liter punch-ins. So if you were to double a French barique, you're at 450 liters, where one of my punch-ins is 500. So you're more than twice the amount.
Speaker 2:
So if you think about twice the amount of wine in one barrel, you have a lot more wine in one vessel and so there's less wine touching the wood and so the way that wood is interacting with the wine is a lot. It's a lot less impactful in a large format barrel because there's more surface area of the wine in the center touching the wood than there is on the outside. Whereas the barrel size decreases, there's a lot larger ratio of the wine that's in that vessel touching the wood itself, and so the way the wine interacts with that wood is a lot different the smaller the size gets. So when you're aging wine in a larger format vessel, that vessel has a lot less impact on the wine overall. So that's a huge for our program works good for us yeah, less is more.
Speaker 2:
But anyway, where I was going with that is.
Speaker 1:
Punch-ins are your favorite bung holes. Punch-ins are my favorite bung holes, but their bung holes are the same size as a regular size bung hole, but it's fun, though those are scary to stack, by the way, done it a few times and to move is a bitch.
Speaker 2:
They are scary to stack and our winery has a ceiling height of 18 feet and if I had to build my winery again I would have built a 20 foot high ceiling because if I could, I would put four punch-ins high, but right now my ceiling height is limiting me to only three punch-ins high.
Speaker 1:
Do you ever climb the barrels when you're like topping or?
Speaker 2:
Is OSHA listening.
Speaker 1:
No, not that I know of, they're not on the Patreon episode.
Speaker 2:
The real answer is yes, we do. We climb, the barrel stacks you climb a punch-in four-high. We can't stack punch-ins four-high, but if I could, I probably would. We can stack our standard bariks five-high, but we climb all the way to the top and it gets sketchy, because you can feel them swaying as you climb up.
Speaker 1:
I climbed up four-high, and four-high is as high as I'm comfortable going at the moment, but also four-high use.
Speaker 2:
Hey man, you gotta go five-high, let's go do it.
Speaker 1:
Charlie's like you're a pussy, you need to climb five-high bitch, although four-high used to be really sketchy for me when it was first beginning and I was like, oh, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this, but now I'm used to it, so it's probably the same thing for me if it's five-high. If it's sketchy at first, then over time it'll be like it's no big deal.
Speaker 2:
I mean, we are very safe in the way we interact in the winery. But yeah, the thought of unstacking a bunch of stacks to get to something like this towards the back, to just do something minor, to like, yeah, my seller guy and I will just like, yeah, I'm not going to ask anyone else to do it, but I'll climb yeah but I'll climb.
Speaker 1:
I've seen people they have some people have harnesses in like climbing ropes At these when they stack like really high but you don't want to unstack them all the time if it's in a weird spot, or like I think Carhart had that in Santa Barbara where they stacked five high, I think, because well, they had such little space length and width wise, but the height of their barns, because every single barn was it for a different use. There is one for just case goods, there is a barrel barn and then there is a production facility barn. Everything's on barns because it's an old ranch and they just repurposed all the barns and obviously insulated them for wine purposes, but it was like five to six high and then they would climb that but they'd use like a harness, like climbing harness and like a rope, and so they would just like each kind of rack they would do their. What are those things called?
Speaker 1:
Carabiners God thank you so much. Carabiners tip of my tongue. They would do a carabiner on every single rack. Basically, if it's like four above they would use the carabiner and whatnot.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, no, we do too, man. We practice our belaying as we're like going down the barrels.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, you know like you do like you're like you're climbing a rock face.
Speaker 2:
You know you like, you do your your, your push off and you belay down.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, absolutely. It's all about spelunking the bung holes. Yeah, yeah, that's what it's all about. But I mean your production facility. I mean because it's relatively new. When did you build that?
Speaker 2:
So our barn and our production facility both opened two years ago, labor Day, so that would be 2021.
Speaker 1:
Oh, so it was. Yeah, it was before it moved here. I moved here in April 22.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, so it's been a. It's been a work in progress. We started the barn project in 2019 with like permitting and stuff, and then construction started 2020 and we had footings dug and forms up and concrete trucks were supposed to show up the next day and then, freaking, covid happened and delays. So, yeah it a project that was supposed to take eight months, took almost two years, but we got there.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, all fine, and good, yeah, you got there eventually, I mean. So with the new facility, you're able to have all these different alternative tanks in there which you didn't have. Did you have them before we had?
Speaker 2:
a couple of concrete eggs. Two concrete eggs before we built the new production facility. But after the new production facility we were able to add two more concrete tanks and add the Italian M4s.
Speaker 1:
Okay, yeah. So what was your last production facility like?
Speaker 2:
Uh tiny, and we're very efficient at what we call winery Tetris. I think most wineries are familiar with this game. But I mean you, you build a space and you fill it full of stuff, and then you just figure out how to make it work, right? So we built this production facility that we felt like was an appropriate size for the size winery that we were, and then we filled it full of stuff and now, all of a sudden, we find ourselves playing winery Tetris again.
Speaker 2:
I just think it's part of the game where it's like to do anything you have to move a bunch of crap around. Yeah, you know the old, the old winery kind of adage is like winemaking is like 50% moving stuff around, like 40% cleaning stuff and like 10% making wine. You know, maybe it's even less making wine, maybe it's like 45% like cleaning stuff, or 50% cleaning stuff and 45% moving stuff around, only 5% winemaking, I don't know. It's it's mostly cleaning and moving stuff around.
Speaker 1:
Mostly clean shit, uh, moving shit, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
It's mostly that, yeah, um, but it's fine and we've gotten really good at it.
Speaker 1:
So yeah, Winery Tetris is something that I wasn't aware of until I was in a smaller space in Santa Barbara at a place called Jaffers. That's mostly mostly all Rhone blends or Rhone wines, pretty much mostly Sera. It's really interesting but, um, they don't do a large volume at all. It's very small and their facility is very small and they had storage facility in Lompoc. So they're downtown Santa Barbara and their storage facility was in Lompoc, which is like an hour and 15 away, kind of which. You had that a little bit too, cause you used to store some stuff in, uh, cash mirror.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, as we kind of outgrew our storage capacity here, we kept all of our case goods off site in a warehouse and we just truck it back and forth.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
And it sucks when your closest off site storage space is an hour away. Your trucking pallets of wine, you know it takes half a day to go an hour there. Grab a fork, cliff, dig out the stuff you need, put it on a truck, drive it an hour back. Fortunately, now we're a lot closer. We have an offsite warehouse. It's only five minutes down the road.
Speaker 1:
But it's still not all here.
Speaker 2:
It'd be glorious if it was all here on our property but we have to build another freaking building. If we wanna do that, yeah, and that may happen at some point, but right now we're just we're making the best use of what we have and being as efficient with our use of space and time as possible. That's the name of the game. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Gotta get good at using space and time to your benefit, especially when making wine. It's crazy. I didn't realize the whole storage issue until I moved up here and started working full time in production in a pretty small space and man, the Tetris. That goes on. You gotta get creative in so many ways to fit everything in.
Speaker 2:
And our old production facility. We started hanging stuff from the ceiling.
Speaker 1:
Like what.
Speaker 2:
Hoses and stuff like that. And just the use of ropes and pulleys, like we hang stuff on the ceiling and get it up high and then lower it to the ground when we needed it and then hang it high again. It's like, well, if you have height, use height.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Like we don't have any more on the floor square footage, but there's space above the case goods. So what can we hang from the ceiling?
Speaker 1:
So we started doing that. That's what Jaffers did too. They hung most of their hoses. They did pulley system that went all out to it because they did have height as an advantage and so they tried to use that as best as they could and so all of their hoses were on pulleys. But the way that they do their wines, they only needed those hoses once a year. They stored two hoses that they usually use beneath, so all the other ones are harder to get, but when they needed it once a year they can get it and then the ones are easier to access.
Speaker 1:
Because they mostly did gravity and so they had a pump, really small pump Like in a random alley in the barrel section, just stored there, and they didn't touch their wines that often. They're barrels, kind of like you a little bit, and because they use gravity pretty much for everything, and so during harvest I don't think I worked too harvest there I didn't see a pump once in that whole harvest I worked there and I was like, wow, these guys use gravity for literally everything that they can and it could be a bitch to do that too at times, but even barreling down it was all gravity, no pumps. It was really interesting to see that process, because the winemaker there wanted to do that more. They could have used their pump more than they did, but he was like no, I like gravity, I think it's cool, so we're just gonna do that.
Speaker 2:
There's a lot of ways. I think gravity is not cool, yeah, but tell me more about that. Mostly when I'm falling.
Speaker 1:
Mostly when I'm falling. How often have you fell in the winery?
Speaker 2:
I wasn't specifically talking about the winery, oh in general. Yeah, no, I don't fall in the winery really at all.
Speaker 1:
Do you hate heights?
Speaker 2:
No, I don't hate heights, but I mean I've never experienced skydiving or something about gravity is like. Yeah, a big factor there. Yeah, just hoping that parachute opens. That's maybe something I've had bungee jump before.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, where.
Speaker 2:
In Puyallup at the state fair.
Speaker 1:
Oh, yeah, yeah, what was that like?
Speaker 2:
It was awesome.
Speaker 1:
I. Don't know, I don't remember how high it was shit out of me.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's funny because my wife has been skydiving before and she was like I would rather jump out of an airplane than bungee jump. I'm like why? Because, like at least bungee jumping, you're attached to something. Yeah like I don't have to hope that my parachutes get open, like I have a cord that like my feet are tied to yeah.
Speaker 2:
So I don't know, like just different trains of thought there. But yeah, that was when I was a teenager and it's funny because my mom reminds me this sometimes but my brother and I did the bungee jumping together and you obviously you had to pay for this service and Like being the smart ass, like teenager that I was like, before we did it I turned to my mom and I said you realize that if my brother and I died doing this, that you paid for it.
Speaker 1:
I'm gonna look at it you pay for this shit to happen.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I love my mom. My mom was great.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, anytime I'm up like in a very high place, I Overanalyze literally everything that's going on, and so I'll go to like like bungee jumping. Okay, this thing is strapped around. Whatever. Who made the straps, the? Did they do a good job? Is this a faulty strap Parachute? I would have the same complete erotic Thoughts and that time you want a quality producer erotic neurotic. Erotic is different than neurotic. I was gonna say yeah, I get really horny. I don't hear about your.
Speaker 2:
I don't want to hear about your erotic experiences.
Speaker 1:
Just all bricked up. No, like when I'm up four barrels high, like is that an erotic experience?
Speaker 1:
That's a very erotic. It's a very erotic experience for me. I think about my footing. I'm like okay, what shoes am I wearing? Am I wearing my winery boots? Okay, I'm good. Am I wearing vans? I better be more careful or these might slip at any point. I don't often climb barrels with vans on, but If I need to get a barrel sample out of somewhere and I'm doing and not working in the winery on that day, I go on like on a weekend have to get a barrel sample for some random tour that's coming, you know, I'm probably in my vans and I love my vans.
Speaker 1:
Vans are dope. You got dope vans too, holy shit.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, my vans are. I have three different pairs of I, four different pairs of vans and I'm hoping I can grow my yeah election, my skateboard kid at heart. Yeah, I love my vans.
Speaker 1:
I used to be a big vans collector in high school because All the clothes I had to buy Myself. And so I got a job when I was like 12 years old because I wanted cool shit and not JC Penney or whatever it was that my parents were no offense to my parents because they're on a budget, but and I understand that now but as a kid you want cool shit, especially when you're Grew up on hip-hop stuff and you're like, oh, I want a jersey, I want to some dope Nikes, I want Air Force ones or whatever, and so you get a job to do that.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so, so I had a paper route. My kid Plays basketball. He's a he's a soccer kid at heart, but his kind of fall sport is basketball in fall and oh fall like yeah, fall sport. Yeah, like so soccer seasonally but yeah, season fall because he does yeah, soccer, soccer and soccer is like a spring to to fall and then, over the winter, basically fall to next spring. He plays basketball, right, and he wanted a pair of basketball shoes that were orange and green and I was like, okay, well, it's oddly specific but, let me see what I can do.
Speaker 2:
And I found him a pair of Jordans that had blue and Orange and green on them and they're actually super dope shoes and I bought them for him and I'm like bro, you better understand how special this is because, yeah, I never had Jordans growing up. I've never owned a pair of Jordans in my life.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
I would love to have a pair of Jordans, and you're 10, and you have a pair of Jordans.
Speaker 1:
Hell, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
They weren't brand new, but thank goodness for Poshmark. And I found a really, really pristine pair that had been worn twice maybe you know in his size at a really great price. So you looked out, bro, and you're wearing a pair of Jordans. I've never had a pair of Jordans. Yeah, Air Force 1's will be sick too. Like I want to wear that pair.
Speaker 1:
Dude. So Drake's son, drake, the rapper artist, his son, I think his name's Adonis. He was in a music video. He's about five years old at this point.
Speaker 2:
What a rapper was in a music video that never happens.
Speaker 1:
A rapper's son yeah was in a music video.
Speaker 2:
So I'm sure that happens all the time.
Speaker 1:
Drake's son, adonis, was in one of Drake's music videos, and then he also had a verse as a five-year-old in his song, and so he gave credit to put him on the list so he can get royalties off of it too. This is crazy, but he had a pair. He was playing basketball, because basketball is his favorite sport, and Drake has a. He calls it the embassy, has a full, whole locker rooms, fucking everything in his house, full court, whatever.
Speaker 1:
Why not, why not? And then so it's his son playing with his son's friends and he has this pair of pumas on. Pumas were bright, orange and charcoal kind of. They looked dope as fuck. But Nike Drake is sponsored by Nike and Drake has his own Nike shoe Multiple shoes with Nike and Jordan. And so Nike contacted Drake and wanted to sign his five-year-old son to a Nike contract so he wouldn't wear pumas in Drake's music videos anymore.
Speaker 2:
I mean when you're five and you have a Nike contract. That's pretty dope.
Speaker 1:
That's fucking sick dude. Yeah, I don't think Jordan's kids have Nike contracts.
Speaker 2:
Hey, Nike, you want to have a winery contract with a winemaker.
Speaker 1:
Oh my god, so yeah.
Speaker 2:
I would totally wear Air Force Ones instead of Vans, if you hook me up, actually, you know what?
Speaker 1:
At the same time, Vans you want to have a contract.
Speaker 2:
I will rep all of your shoes in my bunk pod videos.
Speaker 1:
Hell yeah, hook me up. Hook me up, man. I mean, drake is one of the first, if not the first, non-athletes to be sponsored by Nike. And then Kevin Hart is the first comedian to ever wear it.
Speaker 2:
You've got to have funny people wearing your shoes.
Speaker 1:
You've got to have funny Because he's a big fitness guy on social media and stuff and so he created his own shoe with Nike for his running club and stuff he has.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
He's crazy to me. But yeah, I mean if Nike wants to sponsor any of us.
Speaker 2:
I mean really, if anyone wants to give me free shit, like bringing it all on the street.
Speaker 1:
Bringing it all on to me. I will not say no to that 1,000% Dude. I'm really liking this. Try right now.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's pretty good. I love this wine.
Speaker 1:
I think the Papa's my favorite out of your. For me it's like Koon Waz Papa drink those all day. But the try the past year has been one that I've slept on a little bit 2021 was a really special vintage in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 2:
The growing season was just incredible. It was a very warm vintage and it was more of a scramble than 2023, which was also a very warm vintage. But 2023, kind of like the weather mellowed out and led us kind of slow roll things into the winery as we wanted to when in 2021, it was like it's all got to come in and just figure it out. But the 2021 vintage is probably, if it's not the best vintage we've ever made, it's right up there. It's one of the most special vintages we've ever done. Every single wine that we made in 2021 has been just absolutely rockstar. I am loving the Papa, the try, the consonants, koon Waz, and so everything from 2021 has been rockstar. So I love that each vintage has a story to tell and that the story of 2021 is just deliciousness.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think I would agree with that. I mean, what I love about your wines is that there is so much complexity involved in all of them, which is not something you get from every winery right, even like some wineries that might source from the rocks or maybe exclusively from the rocks, like sometimes that rock's characteristic could be in all their wines and then their lineup kind of gets a little boring because it has all that kind of stuff in it. I'm not saying the rocks is boring because I love stuff from there, but all of your stuff has. No matter how light the wine is, it always has some sort of really cool characteristic complexity to it.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. When we make a wine, we strive to make a wine that is a full package, and so we're not happy bottling something that doesn't include. You know our wines they have to be aromatically expressive, they have to have a good entry point, they have to have an awesome experience in the mid-pallet and I think, that's where a lot of Washington wines are lacking is there.
Speaker 2:
You know there might be good entry, there might be good finish, but they're missing something in the middle, and so we want to fill in that middle piece. But then they also have to finish strong as well, and after you've tasted the wine we want you to be left with that lingering kind of flavor in your mouth Even long after the wine is gone. There's got to be that finish. That's still there. And so if the wine isn't aromatically expressive, if it doesn't have a good entry point, it doesn't have a good mid-pallet, if it doesn't have a strong finish, it doesn't get our name. And so it has to check all those boxes, otherwise it's not us.
Speaker 1:
Mm-hmm, yeah, 1,000%. So I want to do a little game real quick, just off the top of the dome. Yeah, I love it. This is called this or that. Okay, so you've got to pick one forever.
Speaker 2:
Love it.
Speaker 1:
So it's one thing versus another thing. You've got to pick one thing. Okay, you can't pick both.
Speaker 2:
Lay it on me, man.
Speaker 1:
Okay, start easy, we'll go concrete egg or junk turtle.
Speaker 2:
Concrete egg.
Speaker 1:
Okay, grenache or saurat.
Speaker 2:
Saurat only because we make more of it than anything else, and I think it is the one variety that we work with that is most expressive of its terroir, and saurat, I would say, is a winemaker's wine. Much like peanut and water can be a winemaker's wine, saurat can be light and fruity, it can be bold and mean, it can be tannic if you want, it can be elegant if you want, and so there's just a lot of diversity there and it leaves a lot of choice. So there's a lot of room for saurat to be whatever you want to be.
Speaker 1:
Great answer Tupac or Biggie.
Speaker 2:
Going to go Biggie Smalls.
Speaker 1:
Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Although I love both.
Speaker 1:
Techno or EDM.
Speaker 2:
EDM all the way.
Speaker 1:
I love house music personally and is house within that category of EDM.
Speaker 2:
Well, so I would consider house within the category of EDM. One of the things that has always driven me nuts is when people generalize and they call all electronic music techno.
Speaker 1:
Because techno is a very specific genre. It's not the same thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Right, techno is a very specific genre. It's like calling something that is a very niche like alt rock band. It's like generalizing them in all of rock music. Techno is a very specific genre, and so I think that EDM covers a wider range, but I specifically love house music.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, more VED or Kunwaz.
Speaker 2:
More VED only because I love the spiciness, the white pepper characteristic you get from more VED. Kunwaz, depending on the site, can have a lot of really cool baking spices to it, but I think, overall, more VED has more diversity and can add a layer that's missing in a blend More than Kunwaz can Kunwaz, if I'm looking for something that is more delicate and more nuanced, then all the way, but if I have to pick one, which I do, because this or that, I'm going more VED.
Speaker 1:
OK, last one. This is not this or that, but it's a favorite. So your favorite, rowne great bridal, white or red period.
Speaker 2:
That's tough because I want to pick something really unique, but I'm going to have to say Serah because of the reasons listed earlier.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
If I want to go crazy off the wall, I'm going to pick something like Petit Monsang. I was going to say Bourblanc, but we grew up Picardin on our site and we're the only ones in Washington that has it and that's insane. But Serah is just so expressive of its site. It's expressive of the way you make it. It's expressive of the way you ferment it and age it Like that is just a fun wine, because if you have a vision for Serah, it can be whatever you want it to be, which is awesome.
Speaker 1:
Epic. Thank you, Charlie, Thanks for coming on the podcast. Cheers to you, Cheers man. Love you. Love you too, dude. And thank you, Gibronis, because you guys are amazing.