#19 Gramercy Cellars - Brandon Moss: Essence of Pacific Northwest Wines

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Instagram: @gramercycellars

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Ever wondered how a twist in weather patterns can turn the winemaking world upside down? Brandon Moss from Gramercy Cellars uncorks the truth behind this season's eccentric climate and its impact on the vines. From the intimate decision-making of pruning frostbitten branches to the organic symphony of native fermentations, our discussion is a treasure trove of the delicate dance between nature and nurture in viticulture. We celebrate the trailblazers of Washington Syrah and dissect the philosophies that shape Gramercy's elegant wines, revealing how every bottle captures the essence of its earthly roots.

Pour a glass and join me as I reminisce about my winemaking odyssey that led me back to the Walla Walla Valley, where the art of wine seems almost destined. From early days on the family farm to Oregon's lush vineyards, I've been seduced by the alchemy of turning grapes into liquid narratives. The episode is steeped in tales of inspiration drawn from the Northern Rhone, Bordeaux blends, and the winemakers who craft them. As we explore these influences, you'll appreciate the meticulous pursuit of balance, the ongoing quest for knowledge, and the shared dream of bringing exquisite wines to tables across the globe.

Our conversation wanders through the Pacific Northwest's rich tapestry of wine and culinary delights, pausing to reflect on the bittersweet closure of local dining icons. You'll be charmed by anecdotes of the region's welcoming wine community and the lively banter awaiting in every bar. This episode offers a full-bodied experience, from the vine to the glass, seasoned with laughter and a hint of nostalgia. So, raise your glass to the stories and people that ferment the vibrant culture of Pacific Northwest wine. Cheers!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Bung pod. Welcome back, wine Wonderboy. We got Jazzy J. Jazzy, what is a bung? The hole of the barrel is called a bung hole. Inside the bung hole is called a bung Wine with mayhem. That's what it's about. Back to the bung pod. Everybody, my name's Ian King, aka Wine Wonderboy. I got my co-host with me, jazzy J. Say what's up? What's up, what's up? A few things, a few things on the docket. Go get our merch bungpodstore, get some hoodies, get some teas. All the links in the description and all the links to this interview, all of their marketing Wine Club. Go do it. It's going to be in the show notes below as well, and without further ado, we have a great episode for you guys. Here we have our friend from Gramercy Cellars. We have Brandon Moss here. He's the winemaker. What's up, brandon? Thanks for having me. Thanks, guys, of course, thanks for taking your time out. It seems like you had a really busy day today.

Speaker 3: 1:14

Yeah, it was a busy day. I was just getting back in the swing of things, been selling some wine on the road, was just in Toronto, montreal. We just got back from Coeur d'Alene in Seattle last week and then I actually spent about half the day just checking vineyards because we've had a really interesting growing season here so far. We not only saw really cold temperatures in January, which I believe you guys are in the Lake Chelan area, I think you guys were even colder than we were here in Walla Walla. That happened in January and then in the last four to five days we've been hovering right around 30 degrees for the last four or five days. So it's been really interesting.

Speaker 3: 2:03

It's you, you know, mother nature's just throwing us all she has this year. So, um, but I just went out to the all the estate vineyards. Everything's looking pretty healthy. Some some stuff hasn't even butted out, which is kind of crazy right now, because normally, um, my birthday is right at the kind of uh, april 12th and normally, almost every year, I'll go out to the vineyards and you'll start seeing those first signs of life. You'll start seeing some buds opening up and this year on April 12th, there was nothing.

Speaker 3: 2:31

Um, it was the vineyard still look dormant, um, you know, and so we've been kind of pinch patiently waiting for things to kind of progress and finally we're starting to see some action, um, out in the vineyard. So it's, um, I think we're we're starting to see some action out in the vineyard. So I think we've actually helped ourselves because everything's delayed. We've been cold for the last five days and most vineyards weren't actually butted out, so it actually kind of helped the situation compared to, you know, if in a normal year, if we would have been 15 days in and had shoots that were three inches, you know, it might be a whole different story right now.

Speaker 1: 3:07

Oh yeah, do you think they'd be more exposed to For?

Speaker 3: 3:11

sure, I mean, you know, at any point, like any bud is is exposed, you know what I mean. So, whether it's three inches or two inches or whatever, but before they've actually, you know, butted out, like when they're just getting fuzzy or when there's just starting to be sap flow, you're pretty well protected at that point. Um, it's really when you start seeing those green leaves come out. Um, and you know just just that slight, you know, couple hours at 30 degrees can just fry a vineyard. And you know the the bummer is, if we fried the vineyard this year, we might not have extra buds to keep growing.

Speaker 3: 3:42

You know, most years, in a normal year where you don't have, like a winter freeze, you would have secondary and tertiary buds that would come after that first one froze and you'd still get a crop. Like that actually happened in the Willamette Valley, I believe, is in 2022, where they froze and then everything kind of came back. But this year, because we had such a harsh winter freeze, I don't know if we'd have an extra bud available at this point in time. So I think that we might. You know, if we froze, there might just be no growth other than coming from the bottom. So I think for the most part I think we we lucked out pretty big time on this one um to get out pretty unscathed, and in most parts of the Valley at least.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Yeah, absolutely, I mean. So what would you do if something like that happened where you didn't have growth in the vineyard, Like how do you pivot from that?

Speaker 3: 4:33

I mean, you know that's a tough call. I mean, you know, as a, as a winery, you really got to make that decision as to you know what's the best thing to do with my vineyard. Do I cut it back to the ground and let everything regrow from the ground? You know, at this point in time in Walla Walla, all my stuff is ungrafted and rootstocks just starting to come into the valley. So, you know, depending on the situation and what I felt like about the vintage, you know, I may just rip stuff out and replant it on the proper rootstock, because that's kind of the direction we're going and we're starting to figure out the right rootstocks for Walla Walla, which, you know, rootstocks aren't really all bad because you can kind of get them suited towards your environment. And so, you know, in that situation I might just rip everything out and replant on proper rootstock to ensure everything's going to be good for the next 50 years. You know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 5:26

Um, and I think those are. You know, sometimes these, these freeze events, they, they make you make hard decisions that can sometimes, I don't know, benefit you for, you know, for the long haul. So, um, but that being said, you know, um, we, we wouldn't want to go vintage without producing any fruit. We do rely on our estate vineyards a lot, but we also the estate vineyards for us are just about 30, 35% of our overall production. So we have plenty of vineyards outside the valley that didn't get hit near as hard. And, you know, while Walla, Walla and Lake Chelan did get really cold, places like the Horse Heaven Hills did not, hills did not, you know, and so the horse heaven hills you know a lot of that yakima valley area they didn't get hit near as hard with the cold as places like lake chelan, bc us, um, so I think that there's there's going to be plenty of good fruit out there. Um, you know, if it is dire circumstances in walla walla okay, very nice and how many estate grapes do you have?

Speaker 3: 6:25

So we have we have one Syrah vineyard that has a couple of rows of vineyard that's about nine acres. We have a primarily Bordeaux varietal vineyard on the valley floor. That the entire property is 20 acres but we have six acres under vine. And then we're also partners in an estate vineyard that is 30 acres total but we're partnered with quite a few other wineries in that one.

Speaker 3: 6:52

So we kind of came together as like a co-op with some wineries and planted that vineyard and that's on the very, very south end of the Walla Walla Valley in Milton Freewater water. But in this um, in this area called Savane it's basically in these kind of windswept, dry um ridgeline that's on the very south of the valley it makes super concentrated cabernet up there, um, so you know, that's kind of what's unique about Walla Walla is, um, we have a pretty diverse climate here and pretty diverse terroir, just because of how our Valley set up, you know. So we try to have our estate vineyards kind of sputtered throughout the Valley so that we can kind of take advantage of different growing conditions to grow certain grapes in specific areas of Walla Walla.

Speaker 1: 7:38

Right, that's awesome, Wow. Um. So right now we are drinking your there. It is 2019. Red Willow Syrah.

Speaker 3: 7:50

That's been fantastic. Right now the Red Willow Syrah is more of, I'd say, our more powerful, structured version of Syrah coming from the Yakima Valley. You know Yakima Valley fruit's quite a bit different than what we're growing here in Walla Walla I'd say Walla Walla Syrahs err on more of that like very savory and a little more plush on the palate, whereas with Yakima Valley you get a little brighter acidity than you get in Walla Walla and you get a more structured kind of like ageable, long-term Syrah. We really love Lanyard for that and honestly, red Willow is one of the best Syrah vineyards in the state of Washington. We love it.

Speaker 1: 8:33

Yeah, that's why I've heard that it's one of the best Syrah vineyards in the state and I wanted to pick your brain and ask you why. I mean it doesn't Looks like you got there's like 13.5%, you guys, why I mean it doesn't looks like you got this like 13, 5%. You guys have a pretty light touch in your winemaking which and for my palate I prefer. It's my goat, it's my thing. I call it the, you know, like the psalm kind of touch a little bit, because a lot of psalms, they sommeliers, they just crave those more refreshing wines, wines that aren't as big and bold and, like you know, won't, uh, you know, hinder your palate in any way because they they're tasting with reps all day with all these big bordeaux's napa wines, you know stuff that really, um, I'm not gonna say kills your palate because it doesn't kill it, it just, uh, you know, tires it out if it chews your palate, it becomes a lot it becomes a lot.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Yeah, and this is, um, this is beautiful. It has a bright acidity, uh, the tannins are very structured as well, um, but still like a very light touch. And can you explain your both the winemaking side of your style and also this particular vineyard?

Speaker 3: 9:45

yeah, certainly so. So first off, on the vineyard um, mike sour is the is the farmer out here at red willow and it's a really unique site. So it's it's just about, um, probably 10 miles uh, to the south of yakima and it's really interesting because it is actually grandfathered in on a very, very large Indian reservation. So while this vineyard is known as being like one of the top Syrah vineyards in the state, you will not find another vineyard around it anywhere. There's orchards, there's lots of other stuff, but you will not see another vineyard around it. But Mike Sauer is very famous because he was the first person to plant Syrah in the state of Washington in 1987. And so he was working with a guy named David Lake from Columbia Winery. He's a master of wine. David Lake really knew about the world of wine and was buying Cabernet from Mike Sauer and said Mike, I love your property, you have the elevation, you have the aspect to plant Syrah. Like will you plant Syrah? And at that time no one even thought Syrah would work in Washington and Mike Sauer took a chance on the grape and kind of, the rest was history. And so you know, at this point he's devoted quite a bit of his vineyard to Syrah and we actually get a block that is right next to the oldest planting at the vineyard that was planted just a few years after the first planting happened out there, so we get some really old vines out there. It's a very sandy soil, so anytime you're growing fruit in sandier soils you're going to get a more perfumed wine. Um, so it's uh, uh, generally speaking, like if you put um in the yakima valley, if you had more silty, uh, or clay type of soil, you're getting even more powerful wine than than what we have here. Um, but because of those kind of sandy soils you're going to get this very perfumed, elegant, um, refreshing wine. It's going to be kind of like, very aromatic, and then that also kind of translates to our winemaking style too.

Speaker 3: 11:49

So in the winery we like to make food-friendly wines. Our founder and initial winemaker I kind of took over the winemaking but our initial winemaker, greg Harrington. He's a master sommelier. He got all his experience in the restaurant industry, really focused on food, and so when we came to make Gramercy wines, we really wanted to make food-friendly wines. We wanted to make wines that show best when you put them with a meal, and so our intentions on when we pick is always have restraint and always have acidity. Acidity is really the key, I think, to making a food-friendly wine, because wines without acidity can just get taken over by whatever food they're with. Especially if you put them with a high acid food, it's just going to take over the wine, it's going to make the wine taste even more flabby than it is, and so you really need to balance those acidities, and that's always what we think about whenever we're picking.

Speaker 3: 12:47

In addition to that, in the winery, we're all native ferment. We are pretty minimal intervention. You know we'll add some nutrients for the yeast. Other than that, we are not really adding anything. So you know, for the most part, we're. I always like to say you, you know, like, we're certainly not a natural winery and we're not trying to be that um, but uh, um, uh, we're. We're definitely like minimal intervention, um. So you know, we're really trying to be as non-invasive as you can possibly be. We use just a tiny bit of sulfur, but other than that, like we're. I always say like, as a winery, like if you went by, um, like european union standards on being an organic winery, we would be. That, you know, and so that's how we.

Speaker 1: 13:38

that's how we like to treat everything in the winery good, do you guys use a uh pied de couve for your native ferments as well?

Speaker 3: 13:46

yeah, that's how I, that's how I get everything started, um, and then usually from there I like. Basically, what I like to do is I like to taste the fermentations as we go and I always say, whatever yeasts are kind of in their growth phase, so like I want to catch yeast when they're growing and expanding, you know, because there's there's a point in fermentation, like you know, and especially in the first five bricks of a fermentation, where yeast are just rapidly expanding. You know they're growing, they're splitting, they're you know they're just expanding, and I always figure, if I can capture those yeast as they're expanding, I'm going to be capturing yeast in their most healthy phase. So then we just taste every fermenter every day and whatever comes in that next day, you know we'll, we'll pitch that into the next thing, um, we'll usually reset that once um, once Cabernet comes in, and make a new P de Cuvée or Cabernet, usually from a Cabernet specific vineyard Um.

Speaker 3: 14:40

But for the most part our start of our season gets started with Forgotten Hills, syrah, which is our own estate vineyard Um. But for the most part our start of our season gets started with forgotten Hills, which is our own estate vineyard Um. We farm it all organically. So I figured it'll be a good substrate for, you know, getting everything going in the season, cause we're not really using these like harsh sprays and so, um, you know, for the most part I've.

Speaker 3: 14:59

Um, I really thought the PDU Cuvée does a very good job and, honestly, I just don't like sitting there trusting a ferment to take off. I really like to make sure that it's going to take off, especially when we're using pretty minimal sulfur in the winery. You know what I mean. I don't want to trust a vat of grapes sitting there for five days hoping that it's going to take off. I'd rather initiate that and make sure we're making CO2, make sure we're getting the biologics under control, because we're already taking a risk by going native that I figure we need to help those natives out and make them more successful.

Speaker 1: 15:34

Yeah, that's awesome. I learned that process through. I had some acquaintances down in California and Santa Barbara from Whitcraft down there, and they have a great history. They're awesome makers of Pinot Noir, chardonnay, cool Climate Syrah next to the ocean, and this kind of reminds me of some of their wines as well, and they always used a P de Couve as well and you know, I haven't really seen it in other places. I've asked a lot of people that do native fermentations exclusively in their winery and, yeah, I think you're the only one so far that uses it and I just always wonder why people don't, because it looks like it's a very trusted process, you know.

Speaker 3: 16:24

And one of the things I'm going to start doing this year is I'm going to start testing my Poudre du Cuvée just to make sure that you know, because I taste it every time. But like I want to make sure I'm starting with this very clean, very neutral profile in terms of what yeast I'm getting. So I'm going to start testing my Poudre du Cuvée just to make sure that the yeast that I want in there are the ones there. But it's it's a tried and true method. Honestly, it works well. You know. You just ensure, like I said, when you're doing natives, you're already kind of taking some risks.

Speaker 3: 16:54

That I feel like when you can reel those risks in a little bit and and take a calculated risk rather than just a random risk, like you're doing a much better job at what you're, what you're trying to do, because you know, like bottom line, like we want to make clean wines. You know what I mean. We want to make wines that are fruit forward, delicious. I mean, honestly, the delicious factor is the most important thing. You know what I mean. It's like is it delicious? Like if it's not delicious, then you've already failed as a winemaker, you know yeah, yeah absolutely gotta make sure it's drinkable.

Speaker 3: 17:25

You know you don't want to fuck up your wine um, and so, yeah, I mean it's just like we love the effects of a native fermentation.

Speaker 3: 17:33

It it slows down the fermentation, it doesn't get as hot. I think that's kind of part of why our wines have this soft, elegant feel to them, because our fermentations just don't get that heat that's going to extract all those aggressive tannins out of the wine. And so we actually haven't had a native ferment go above about 78 degrees ever, and normally when I used to do inoculated yeast, you'd regularly see 90, 95 degrees in a ferment at the peak. And so we're adding a solid 10 to 12 days onto our fermentation and it's much more gentle on the wine, which I think is a style that is not going away. Honestly, I think it's a style that people are gravitating towards now, especially as we get a whole new generation of wine drinkers in. I feel like we are all kind of gravitating towards this maybe different style that is more sort of crushable. It's that the chillable red, the kind of interesting, soft approach that Native ferments and it's a thing that I think is um is not going away.

Speaker 2: 18:46

I think it's just going to be more and more popular as time goes it's interesting that you bring up chillable reds, because it seems like every time I have someone in the um tasting room they like I'll always like, recommend. Like you know, you can always chill this light-bodied red and they're like wait what? And I'm like it.

Speaker 3: 19:06

Nobody said you couldn't like I don't understand the chillable red thing, you know. But, like, like I said, like you know, there there's a whole new generation of wine drinkers that are starting to drink wine now and they certainly do understand the chillable red and it's a thing you know. I say like, especially in chelan, like there's some potential for those type of wines up there. You know what I mean, like you know, and a varietal that that takes the whole season to get ripe, but it's going to be more light body, like plant grenache in lake chelan, although I don't know if it could survive your winters, but like no no plant something that's going to be a lighter body red, and let it, you know, not get totally mature and let it be this kind of light bodied red, and I think it's a thing these days, you know.

Speaker 1: 19:51

I've been pushing for Gamay up here. You think Gamay would survive the winters. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:57

Yeah, that'd be cool. I think honestly, like there's already Pinot Noir. So if you can do Pinot Noir, you can do Pinot Noir, you can do Gamay, you know, because we've been sourcing fruit up in Chelan for quite a while actually we make a vignette from up there.

Speaker 3: 20:14

Oh what? What vineyard? Well, it's actually just outside the AVA, but it's Antoine Creek. Oh yeah, OK, yeah, that's awesome. We've been making vignette from Antoine Creek since 2012. Oh wow, yeah, that's a while. It's quite a trek, but we really like the fruit. So you know, it's a trek that's well worth it and it's a very interesting site. It's like super granite hillside and lots of wind flow through the vineyard because you're on the Columbia River and it's a pretty crazy site.

Speaker 1: 20:45

Yeah, shout out to Antoine Creek. Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 20:49

So how many cases do you guys produce? Or how many cases do you make?

Speaker 3: 20:54

We make, right around 10,000 ish, depending on the vintage. We've been as high as like 14,000, but you know, those are, those are in in heavy vintages, um, but 10,000 is kind of the sweet spot for us. It's it's just me and one other guy in the cellar, and so we were kind of like if we were much over 10,000, I don't, I think we'd be swimming. Uh, so it's perfect. We have a pretty small little facility here too. So, um, it's just about the right amount of wine. And you know, the way we've always thought about it as a winery is, you know, like I said, I just got done doing some trips and I like doing trips, but like I don't want trips to be every single week of my job, you know. And once you start getting to a certain size, that's when, you know, your job basically becomes getting on planes every day rather than going and checking on vineyards, and that's where we did not want to see the winery going, you know so you said you guys were in how many different countries?

Speaker 3: 21:50

I think it's like 10 to 12 right now. In what countries are those? Let's see, south Korea. We are in Singapore. We are in um Singapore, we are in Japan, um Canada, we are in Germany and Sweden. And let's see I'm going to forget some of these European ones, cause there's quite a few Um oh man. Definitely We've been in Switzerland. I'm not sure if we're there. We're currently um, um oh man. I know I'm forgetting one or two, but there's definitely a couple more out there that we're in. That have been pretty positive for us.

Speaker 3: 22:47

But, like I said, we sell a lot of wine in BC and Alberta and quite a bit of wine in UK. Other than that, international markets are not a huge part of what we're doing. We definitely rely on domestic a lot more. But at the same time, like I think it's good to have a worldwide presence. Um, you know, just get your wines out there, um, and you know it's it's kind of gets your name out there. It gets the Washington state name out there too. Um, we work a lot with um you know, uh, washington wine commission and do a lot of their events, their events, and, you know, kind of try to promote the state as a whole, you know, because I feel, like you know, in addition to promoting our own winery, I think that getting Washington wine on a worldwide stage is is kind of an important thing to do, you know.

Speaker 2: 23:35

Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1: 23:36

All right, let's take a break for a minute, because Jazzy has got something to tell you.

Speaker 2: 23:41

All right, let's talk about it. So did you know we do have extra episodes on Patreon and you can only get these for $5. What, yeah, crazy? I know Dope, so go to Patreon. Link is in the description of the episode and subscribe $5. You're supporting us and you're getting to learn more about the wine industry. Let's go, woo, all right, all right, all right, guess what? I think Ian has something to tell us?

Speaker 1: 24:15

I do, I do. We got some merch going on right now. We got hoodies Say what. We got handbags.

Speaker 2: 24:20

No way.

Speaker 1: 24:22

We got some merch going on right now. We got hoodies, what we got? Handbags no way. We got stickers. We got tank tops right now for the summertime, oh hell. Yeah, we got some windbreakers too. So go to bungpodstore and get your bungpod merch, yeah, all right, welcome back, um. So we talked about your case production and your style of winemaking, which is awesome. I love personally. So how did you get to be making this style of wine? Like? What's your background like?

Speaker 2: 24:53

How'd you get into wine really?

Speaker 3: 24:56

You know, honestly, in terms of making the style of wine, I think, if I, if I wouldn't have found Gramercy early on, I don't think I, I don't know, I don't know what style of wine I would be making, but I'm not sure if it would be this style. So that's kind of one of the exciting things about finding Gramercy early in my career. But I, you know, funny enough, I actually. So I grew up in the Walla Walla Valley and I actually worked in vineyards when I was 16 years old and I never, I never thought that that would be the career that I would take, you know, but, um, but I grew up kind of like on it, on a farm, um, we, it wasn't like our primary thing, but like on saturdays we'd go sell plums at the farmer's market, you know, and, and on the weekends we would, you know, um, prune plum trees and, you know, basically work on the farm all weekend long, and so that that's kind of what we did, um, and so I've always kind of lived this agricultural life.

Speaker 3: 25:51

Um, I went, uh, went to oregon state, which I'm always feel very, very lucky for, because it's kind of in the heart of the willamette valley there. Um, I pre-med, um is what I went there for originally started, uh, in about my fourth year of school really started, um, initially falling in love with making beer. I got, I had a buddy that was a super beer nerd. He's actually in pendleton, oregon now making beer and making food and uh, mustards and all these things in Pendleton. But, um, I started brewing and really started getting into that. Then you start trying. You know lots of beers and and kind of interesting things and things that are out there.

Speaker 3: 26:35

Um, and then, um, just very randomly, I had this wine shop that I would walk by every day and what's funny is I initially went in there for a pack of Miller High Life. I think it was like $5.99 Miller High Life and I was like, oh, that's a deal of the century, let's go. It's $5.99 Miller High Life pack on sale. So I'd always go in there and I eventually started going in. I'd chat with the guy and he'd be like, oh, you should try this wine or you should try this Willamette Valley Pinot Noir, it's really good. And so I started trying that and I really started loving Pinot Noir and Willamette Valley Pinot Noir especially. And this was like you know, this would have been like, oh, four or five. This is like when you could actually afford Pinot Noir on like a college kid's book. You know it was like 20, 30 bucks would get you something that was like pretty good, you know, and um, and so I just started, you know, walk by the shop, I'd pick up a bottle of wine and take it home and try it.

Speaker 3: 27:38

Like really started like going down that rabbit hole. And you know, I think, as we all know, like wine is one of those things that it's just endless knowledge is out there and you can never know it all and you just keep striving to know more. You know, and so it was one of those things that, like I've always liked learning about things. Like it's just been a thing I like learning and like figuring out stuff, and so wine was just one of those things that I feel like you can never figure out completely. It's like there's no one in this world that knows every single thing about wine, because it's just not possible to do so. You know there's, there's master sommeliers who know so much about, you know, all the producers of the world, but like, if you gave them a complex organic chemistry equation, that's something that's happening in wine. I bet most of them can't solve it. You know, um, and then they decide that know all that, you know and and probably can't tell you a producer in the world. You know, um, and so you know.

Speaker 3: 28:34

So I basically got in the wine program, learned food science, winemaking, um, when I worked at king estate in the willamette valley. Uh, they're one of the largest um organic producers. Um, they were the largest organic producer in oregon and maybe one of the larger organic producers like on the whole west coast. They're very large in terms of organics, and so I really wanted to learn that. So I went, went there, and then I took a jaunt to New Zealand and worked down there, really wanted to see a bigger winery, see what Sauvignon Blanc was made. It was a really interesting venture, I feel like. Down there I went to a winery that was way too big, but at the same time it was pretty cool. I met a lot of really neat people. It was pretty cool. I met a lot of really neat people. Basically, we had interns represented from every winemaking region in the world, and so it was like this melting pot of cultures down there.

Speaker 3: 29:30

And then, honestly, I came back to Walla Walla, which was supposed to be just a quick week-long vacation meeting up with some friends and family, and then I was going to go back to the Willamette Valley and I basically tried the wines that were being made here and was like, oh my god, I can't believe this is like being made where I grew up, because that wasn't really happening when I left, you know, and I hadn't really tasted those wines all that much because Walla Walla wines didn't really have the reach to get to the Willamette where I was living or get to New Zealand. So I hadn't really have the reach to get to the Willamette where I was living or get to New Zealand. So I hadn't really tried many of these wines. And I just fell in love with what was being made here and quickly hooked up with some of the people that were making wine at the same place where Gramercy was making wine.

Speaker 3: 30:18

I became the cellar master for that facility and then started kind of taking over a lot of responsibilities for Gramercy and quickly realized that Greg and I Greg the owner and I really worked well together and we were kind of like that yin and yang. You know he was a master sommelier who was very erythro about wine. I was kind of this chemistry wine student who knew a lot about making wine, who knew a lot about science but didn't necessarily know like nothing about you know kind of the worldwide scope of wine making wine, who knew a lot about science but didn't necessarily know like nothing about you know kind of the worldwide scope of wine. And so it was kind of this like cool balancing act. You know, he would show me cool things or show me cool books that he'd read in his master sommelier studies and then I would read them and I'd be like, oh, you know, I I didn't know about using whole cluster fermentation or like why would you do fermentation?

Speaker 2: 31:07

That's crazy.

Speaker 3: 31:07

But then, like you try these things, you're like oh, okay, now I kind of get it, you know. So where did you? Um, what was the winery in new zealand? So it was a very, very large winery, so it was called indivin um, massive, and they're even now. So they were massive when I was there back in like 2007. But from the people I've talked to that have gone there more recently, it has like 10 times the size of what it was when I was there, and like to put it what I always like to say about Indivin.

Speaker 3: 31:31

So I worked my way up from I was pretty young, like they didn't want to let me run the presses, but I like to. I like to kind of challenge myself and I really wanted to run the presses. You know, I was like this is what I came here to do. And so eventually I I got bumped up and I got to run the presses and, um, I was running three presses in the night. We would do three press loads on all three presses and on one single cycle through these three presses I was running 400 tons, holy, holy, 250 ton pressures and 100 ton press every night it was. It was absolutely bonkers like I would get. I ran the night shift and I would get to work and there would literally be dump trucks, double dump trucks, lined up for like miles, you know, just waiting to unload breaks.

Speaker 3: 32:24

Um, it was just, it was a bonkers. I mean, it showed you a very different side of the wine industry that I don't think, um, I don't think we normally experience that in in oregon and washington. It's not something we see, um, and while it was really cool to see once, um, I don't think I'd want to do it again, other than other than meeting all the people. I mean that that's what was really cool about the whole situation, is they? They we had 60 interns, so I mean you can only imagine how big 60 interns and they put us all up in a hostel and so every night was like us getting together, sharing wines, making food and just like learning about each other's culture.

Speaker 3: 33:08

So like, well, maybe the winery was a little bit too big, um, to really like, you know, encapsulate like the learning environment that I wanted, like just learning from the people and meeting all the people. And now having all these contacts and you know, portugal or Spain or Italy or wherever, it's like if I need to go, like if I needed to go to Portugal, I know I have someone's couch. I can sleep on tomorrow. You know what I mean, and that's. That's a pretty cool feeling, you know.

Speaker 2: 33:36

Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 33:37

Absolutely so. I have a question from going going from studying wine and then going under Greg, and at that point you didn't really have a lot of experience with the world of wine, but you knew the chemistry behind everything and winemaking. How did he and him being a master? How did he and him being a master? How did you, how did he expose you to the world of wine? His books, like what's your experience?

Speaker 3: 34:12

actual tasting wines or what kind of wines did you try? That opened your mind, yeah. So one of the one of the first things he did when I started working for him full time is he was like you need to go buy this book right now and it was called the Wines of the Northern Rhone. And I basically read that book front to back. And the Wines of the Northern Rhone is a really cool book because basically it'll have a producer and then it says all the wines that they make and they tell you about their thought process behind making all of those wines. It tells you where it's, from what level they harvested it at, if they did whole cluster, if they were native, blah, blah, blah. But it gives you all the information on what they do. And then what I did is I just read it and, as we would try wines, I would cross-check those with the things I'd read in that book and been like, oh, I really like this wine. Like, oh, why do I like it? And I'd go look it up in the book and I'd be like, oh, so they're doing this, this and this. And like, oh, that's kind of cool. Like who's doing that in Washington? It's like, oh, no, one's doing that in Washington. Oh well, maybe we should try doing that, you know. And so that's kind of how it goes. And you know it's like you try something, you see if it works, and then you're like, ok, well, well, that worked. Or like, hey, maybe that didn't work, like, let's, you know, you're never going to make a bad wine. Well, sorry, preface that you can make a bad wine with trial and error. Be taking a trial. That's going to result in, like, making a terrible wine. It's like, am I going to make something good or better? You know what I mean not not bad or good, you know. And so we would do trials that like wouldn't necessarily like make bad wines, but like, hey, let's try 100 whole cluster and something and see, see what it does, you know, but let's only do it in a half a ton rather than in four tons. You know, um, and so we would do these little trials.

Speaker 3: 35:56

When the winery started, and you know, that's kind of like what it came from, um, but you know, like, really, um, greg exposed me to a lot of northern rhone wines that I just wouldn't have known existed. You know, I'm probably my favorite one, probably the most geeky one, um, but uh, jammy, um, jammy coat roti, that's, let's go that right. There is, like you know, it's it's not about fruit, it's about like olives and brine and meat and it's like everything I love in syrah and honestly ever found that wine, because it's not a wine that like, like, if you're a connoisseur, like it's not a wine that necessarily is something that everyone knows, like a lot of people in the Northern Rome they'll know all of them on, they'll know shop, they'll know kind of those class or Ross thing, um or um, uh, we all you know like those are the big ones, those are the collectors wines, but like, yeah, may is that's a geeky wine, you know, and that's a cool. The other one that Greg exposed me to that like I would have never have known, is Ganon Saint-Joseph. That's one that is not super common. It's gotten really expensive to date but like I still think that like, not that many people know about that wine and it's one of the most delicious Northern Rhone Syrahs that I've ever had.

Speaker 3: 37:21

And then you know, like, when it comes to like bordeaux wines, I mean we don't drink all that much, us bordeaux wines, because we really ache in ourselves to like, want to make a bordeaux style, you know. And so I really like you know, just the, the classics um in in bordeaux, you know, like uh, puy la coste, um, you know, like uh, puy-le-coste, um, you know. So, uh, just the classics, I feel like really embody um what we want to make Um, and so, you know, while we started as a Syrah winery, I feel like you know, we're kind of an equal Bordeaux and Syrah winery um these days. So I like to, um, you know, kind of uh, go on both sides and and try both, you know absolutely.

Speaker 1: 38:03

I mean, yeah, some of those producers you're named um, I probably went right over jasmine's head, but at some point in the vineyard I really hope to expose her to a lot of those producers like jma all them on. There's some of my favorites. I have yet to have a shop. Uh, one of my bucket list wines is a shop, and so it's. It's a very fucking expensive wine and so, um, I have yet to get my hands on it those wines have gotten so expensive, like even jam a.

Speaker 3: 38:33

I remember when, um, when I first got exposed to it with greg and I looked to go buy some, I I think it was only $55, maybe $60. I know, I definitely bought some, I remember, and then every year I'd go look again and when they released and it was like, oh well, it was 55. Oh, now it's 70. Oh, now it's 90. And I'm not talking like $5 price increases, I'm talking twenty dollars a year. And then now I don't even.

Speaker 3: 39:03

I think the last time I saw it was like well, actually the estate split, so it's kind of different. Now the brothers, the brothers split the estate, so now there's two different jmas. So I don't know if you can necessarily compare straight up what they're making now with maybe what was happening. I think it happened maybe five to six years ago. Um, but like, the last time I saw it it was like I mean, those bottles were like 190 dollars, I think you know 100, 200, and so they've gone crazy. Same thing happened with ganon. You know, ganon you used to be able to get for like 45 dollars. It was a smoking deal because it's because ganon is actually Saint Joseph, which is not quite as famous Appalachian as like Cote Roti or Hermitage, and so smoking deals. But it's the same thing for Ganon. Those wines are now like $175. It's crazy.

Speaker 1: 39:53

Wow, yeah, it's nuts right now. That's, like you know, 45, 50 bucks. That's what like Cru Beaujolais is going for nowadays.

Speaker 3: 40:03

Yeah, it's wild and Cru. Beaujolais used to be like 25, you know Exactly.

Speaker 1: 40:08

People like fucking me that keeps pushing Gamay and Beaujolais, Driving the fucking prices up. Man.

Speaker 3: 40:17

Cru Beaujolais is just inherently delicious and there's a lot of cool like naturally producers in Beaujolais is just inherently delicious and there's a lot of cool like naturally producers in Beaujolais. That I think, makes them like like. I'd argue that like Beaujolais, especially like with the natural producers, are making some of the cleanest, most friendly natural style wines that you're going to find out there in this world. You know they're. They're just delicious.

Speaker 1: 40:37

Yeah, one of my favorites right now is uh on Sophie Dubois out in Fleury. She's got to be one of my favorite producers right now.

Speaker 2: 40:47

Beaujolais so what are you drinking over there?

Speaker 3: 40:53

I did see you had a glass I had a little bit of our forgotten hills syrah. We had one um that was about two days in and I, where I really like our wines and actually if you guys, if you guys get the chance, save like just a little bit of that bottle, because our wines are really best on like day three. Um, forgotten hills wine that I have right now is on day three and it's just singing um it's. We keep everything pretty tight in the cellar so we keep everything on its leaves. We uh, we basically don't rack sorrel that much. We want to keep it really tight when it goes in bottle.

Speaker 3: 41:29

So our wines have like a lot of longevity in terms of aging, in terms of um, once you open it, like they're gonna be maybe a little tight in those first like couple hours. So like anyone that opens their wines, I'm always like yeah, if you can, you know, pop that cork 24 hours before or throw it in a decanter or whatever you can do, because we intentionally make this style. That's going to be a little quiet, without air. You know what I mean. But what we've seen is that style gets the longevity in the bottle.

Speaker 3: 41:57

So like we are going like we just did a seminar a couple of weeks ago and we showed our 2010 reserve Syrah, and honestly, it was tasting delicious, but, like I'd say, at least five more years, if not. I mean, you know what I mean, and we're already talking about 14 years in, and I'm thinking at least five to maybe even 10 years longer before it really starts to fade, and so I think our wines have longevity, but I also. It's kind of fun. We'll do this a lot at home is, you know, have a couple of glasses on a bottle and then just be like, oh, let's open something different and throw that back in the wine fridge and then come back a day or two later, and it's, honestly, almost always better.

Speaker 2: 42:40

So that's awesome. Yeah, I was during this podcast. I'm like God damn, I really need to make it to wall.

Speaker 3: 42:49

Actually I was kind of John, though, from from Chelan, you know it, it's like, it's like solid five, five hours. It's, it's pretty good I is.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Yeah, that's. That's the only reason why we're not hanging out with you in person, right, I know, because we do do, uh, podcasts on the road. So I do take my setup with me and go places. Um, I was in, I happen to be in santa barbara like in march, and so I did a podcast in person with, um, a winemaker down there, which was awesome. But, yeah, one thing that we really want to do is take this podcast on the road, go to walla walla, do a bunch of episodes, you know, and hopefully we can reconnect and we can do one in person as well we could taste in the cellar.

Speaker 3: 43:32

We could do some fun stuff. Like you know, walla walla is a fun town too, you know. It's like it's. It's an easy town to really make like a really fun weekend getaway. Um, great restaurants, so many wineries, kind of cool downtown bar scene like um, it's just it. It's honestly. I mean there's a reason why there's so many wineries here, kind of like Chelan. You know what I mean. There's a reason why there's a lot of wineries in Chelan it's because it's a fun town. You know what I mean. There's fun stuff to do downtown. It has a cool little classic downtown vibe and we kind of have the same thing here. You know where. You know, and that's what kind of makes it unique and special is that you know you can come down here, you make it a weekend and have like a just a, a really nice time with wineries and bars and restaurants and you know, and it's uh, and the people are really great too. You know we're we're a real wine community over here. So, and the people, are really great too.

Speaker 1: 44:37

We're a real wine community over here. Yeah, I love the Walla Walla area. I went there in June of last year for me and my girlfriend's birthday. We have the same birthday, not the same year, but the same date, june 20th, which is crazy. But we went down there and she is a former chef, private chef, and she is a I guess she's an operations manager of a restaurant group in Seattle now. So we went down there.

Speaker 1: 45:08

She did all the culinary things. She booked all of them. That was her job. My job was the wine stuff, things. She booked all of them, that was her job. My job was the wine stuff. And so we went to you guys, um, in June and we bought like six bottles or something. Um, I think this is like kind of like the last of that, but, um, and we went to Kinglet and Kinglet was fucking amazing and I'm so sad, rip Kinglet. Um, it was a great restaurant. I'm so bad, I'm so sad, rip kinglet. Um, it was a great restaurant. I'm so bad, I'm so sad it's closed down now. So I really want to go back.

Speaker 3: 45:42

So sad we're in the same boat. It was, uh, it was, an amazing restaurant it's. You know, that's the hardest thing about walla walla and I feel like kinglet was amazing it's. It's hard to be too fancy in wall and that's the only thing. That that's difficult here is because, like, when it really comes down to it, you know we have a tourist season and then we also have a local season and the locals are blue collar, cut of the earth farmers. You know what I mean. And like you gotta have just like a normal burger, honestly, like you gotta have that like steak frites or you know, whatever, whatever it is that keeps them going. But man, kinglet was awesome. We'll miss them, you know I'm I'm excited that you know they get to focus on what they're doing in Seattle, but it's, it's kind of a bummer and we're really hoping, you know, for the best for those guys.

Speaker 1: 46:27

So Absolutely Befriend of my friend Chauncey. He was a sommelier down there he moved to new york city.

Speaker 3: 46:36

He moved to new york. Yeah, I'm not sure where he's working over there, but like, I definitely saw that he's in new york city now. So that's pretty cool for him. It's a probably a pretty big leap. But you know, it's like man, if you uh, as a sommelier, like that's, that's the place. You know what I mean absolutely.

Speaker 1: 46:54

I mean he's got the skills, he has the knowledge, he has got the experience. You know, I was hoping he'd wind up somewhere in the pnw so I can go see him again exactly but maybe that's a, you know, another podcast for another time you know what that's.

Speaker 3: 47:11

The thing about the pacific northwest is everyone that leaves always wants to come back. I mean, they leave for so long and then you're like, oh man, like there's something washington and oregon, like there's just something really nice about washington and oregon that I think it's like the outdoors and like the wine and the food and the people, and it's just like there's so much here that like just keeps you wanting to live here. You know what I mean? I just like, um, yeah, I don't know, I can see myself living somewhere else someday, but at the same time, like I think I would always come back to somewhere in the pacific northwest because it just has a vibe to it, you know absolutely.

Speaker 1: 47:47

I mean I lived in santa barbara for 11 years and as a amazing wine scene the people there are awesome in the wine community, like awesome culinary scene. I mean, at the end of the day, just so fucking expensive to live there and I missed washington state and so I was like I need to move back.

Speaker 3: 48:06

So california, man, it's a, it's a great state. There's a lot, a lot of great things in california. I love. I especially love the paso robles area. We love going down there. Um, we actually have hospice to rone happening this week um first time ever, so we're super excited about that. But we always used to go down to hospice to rone down in paso, and so I really love that area. California is great. But like, yeah, you're right, living down there is a hard life, man. I mean you're, you're, you're working to live. You know what I mean. And I'd rather be in the northwest where we're, we're, uh, you know, we're just living and and our jobs are what we have to do, but at the same time, it's not every single thing in your life, you know yeah, I'm a full washington girl, go cougs, you know okay baby, we're friends forever, now you know yeah

Speaker 1: 48:59

so you know, we're bonded forever I went to the homecoming game uh this past year and in pullman that was my first game ever. Um, I never went to wazoo. I mean I did online for like viticulture and whatnot. But I grew up in Seattle and I've always been more of a Coug than a Husky so it was kind of nice going there for viticulture and my girlfriend, she's thoroughbred, she's legacy Coug all the way. So I went with her, got to see her old sorority house, you know, saw the see how the coogs really party yeah, it was pretty nuts I heard you fell asleep.

Speaker 3: 49:41

I did can't keep up with the coogs. But uh, when, uh, what month was the game was? It? Was it november? It was october. Gosh, those co games. I swear. I've been to four games, four Beavers-Cougars games, and those are the coldest games I've ever been to in my entire life. I've never been colder ever in my life than at a Cougars game. The Palouse is just frigid, that air, and all you want to do is just leave and go drink more. So now I it, I get why the coup.

Speaker 2: 50:18

You know it's, it's, you just get I think my go-to drink was angry orchard with a shot of fireball in it and, oh my god, before games, just shoot that down. I can't, I cannot.

Speaker 1: 50:32

What the fuck is wrong with you A little while, until the sugar rush kicks in.

Speaker 2: 50:38

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:41

I mean, at the time I went to the game I had a bit of a cold so my sinuses were just like Blocking and I knew if I was on Coors Lights the sinus stuff Would.

Speaker 1: 50:54

Get out of me it would get out of me, it would get worse, and so I was on what I decided to do. I was like I'm just going to do whiskey gingers the whole time I'm there. A bad choice, very bad choice, because after you're used to drinking Coors lights like that, um going and whiskey gingers go down really easy and I was drinking them like Coors Lights and it was not a bad. It was not a good scene to see.

Speaker 3: 51:26

I actually got. I got kicked out of the Coug over there in the Coug. I showed up and we the Beavers had just won and I still had on, like I think I had a Beavers beanie on, and I walked up and we the Beavers had just won and I still had on, like I think I had a Beavers beanie on, and I walked in and everyone just stopped everything they were doing. I know, oh, should I go back to the, to the hotel, and like change into like oh, no, like that'll be cool, like we'll just go get some food, it'll be fine. It was just go get some food, it'll be fine. It was like as soon as we walked in, it was record scratch. Everyone stopped their conversation. I think there's better places for you, sir I can.

Speaker 2: 52:09

I can picture it now it was.

Speaker 3: 52:12

It wasn't bad, it wasn't super confrontational. We found another cool bar, like some book bar. I don't remember what it was called, but, um, yeah, it's kind of interesting yeah, it's a.

Speaker 2: 52:24

It's an interesting place, for sure. I still need to bring my boyfriend there and see what he thinks. Oh, he has never been there oh my god we gotta go together at some point.

Speaker 3: 52:34

That's crazy yeah the the farther your gap gets from like the college age, it gets more different and different. So you gotta gotta attack it sooner than later. You know, because, like, when you start to get old, then you're like, what are these kids doing, you know, whereas, like you know, 10 years before you're like, oh, these kids are awesome. Like let's hang, know. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:53

And we're getting real close to that 10 year mark.

Speaker 3: 52:58

I'm past it, so you know.

Speaker 1: 53:00

I mean, the last time I was there, I was in this place called Valhalla Cougs. Know what that place is, but it's a. It's a cool bar, has really good wings, amazing wings.

Speaker 2: 53:10

Like a country bar.

Speaker 1: 53:12

Yeah, it's a cool spot. They have like a basement area that has another bar location there which is dope. But a bunch of college kids were sitting next to us and I was with a bunch of alumni and one of them accidentally bumped into me and he's like I'm sorry, bro. I was like, oh, you're fine, no good, no worries. And then he was like hey, what year are you? I'm like yo, I'm. I didn't tell him how old I was, I was like guess. And he was like are you like a junior? Or I'm like, nah, I'm way past that. But, thank you. I was like thanks, man. Yeah, so it was fun. I told him I'm 33 and he was like oh, what the fuck, that's crazy old man. Yeah, so it was fun. I told him I'm 33 and he was like oh, what the fuck, that's crazy Old man. Like you're not even gray yet. Like what's in it? I've been getting some grays in the beard, though you know it's happening.

Speaker 1: 54:07

It's happening, can't sit young forever. All right, brandon, that's it for our time today. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. We really appreciate it. Loved hearing about you. Loved hearing about the wine. Real quick, anything you want to plug for the winery.

Speaker 3: 54:27

I mean, come visit us. In Walla Walla we have an awesome tasting room. It's a speakeasy style tasting room, so you wouldn't even know it if it's here. We don't have a sign a speakeasy style taste room, so you wouldn't even know it if it's here. We don't have a sign. You have to kind of like, find us. So it's kind of this cool vibe. Um, it feels like your living room. It's a really fun place.

Speaker 3: 54:40

Um, if you're in walla walla this next week, honestly, hospice to ron is happening here. Um, it's going to be a new thing in walla walla, if you want to go to, like, one of the coolest events that's going to be in the pacific northwest. This is something that has only been in Paso Robles. It's coming to Walla Walla for the first time. I don't think it's the last time it's coming to Walla Walla, so it's a super exciting event Like we love for you to be at. That I mean, honestly, just come here, because, honestly, everyone that just comes here, they end up coming here every year from now on. I mean, that's just the way it goes.

Speaker 3: 55:15

All that's just the way it goes all at once and then, next thing you know, you're already making plans on your next trip here. So come visit us. Our wines are awesome. We'll give you an awesome experience at the winery, um. We'll set you up with other cool places in the valley and um, you know, it's just. You'll have a great time, so come on over absolutely sorry.

Speaker 1: 55:32

We need to do our goodbye cheers. I totally forgot she's empty. That's good, and I'll do a little bit more in here. Right right, right. Okay, here we are. Thank you so much. Brandon appreciate it. Thank you all the links are in the show notes. Go there. Thank you guys. Thank you, cheers.

Speaker 2: 56:01

Hey you, now that I have your attention and you've listened to this wonderful podcast that we had to offer, we'd like you to scroll down. And what are they going to do when they scroll down?

Speaker 1: 56:11

Ian, scroll down and give us some feedback. Rate us on your podcast platform ideally five stars, and if you would give us some critical feedback, you can DM us on Instagram at OfficialBungPod. Let's hear it, let's go. It is only two of us writing the show, two of us producing the show. It's me, ian king, jasmine shattuck and the lovely becca hines as our producers and our writers are me, ian king and jasmine shattuck let's go, let's go.