John Vlismas on Comedy, Business, Career Highlights, Childhood, Abuse, Addiction, Recovery, Mental Health and Madiba!

In this episode we're diving into a world where comedy and entrepreneurship intersect.

From winning awards on stand-up comedy stages, to spearheading a multi-million rand agency, John Vlismas is a comedic maverick redefining the entertainment landscape.

On his journey he blends laughter with innovation, and he has a penchant for pushing boundaries. His mentors include artistic greats like Pieter Dirk Uys, and these days his social media is a repository of both comedy and sage wisdom.

Join me as we uncover the essence of this comedic bright spark, his unique philosophy, and how he's carving an unconventional path in the industry. Get ready for an enlightening and entertaining ride with the one and only John Vlismas!

Follow John Vlismas on Facebook @john.vlismas, and on Instagram @fortyshort
or Visit his website at www.ogocreative.co.za

INSTAGRAM & FACEBOOK @castandthecurious

www.curiouscast.co.za
shoutout@curiouscast.co.za

Transcript

Ron: Today we're diving into a world where comedy and entrepreneurship intersect. From winning awards on standup comedy stages to spearheading a multi-million rand agency, John Vlismas is a comedic maverick, redefining the entertainment landscape. On his journey, he blends laughter with innovation, and he has a penchant for pushing boundaries. His mentors include artistic greats like Peter Dirk-Uys and these days, his social media is a repository of both comedy and sage wisdom. Join me as we uncover the essence of this comedic bright spark, his unique philosophy and how he's carving an unconventional path in the industry. Get ready for an enlightening and entertaining ride with the one and only John Vlismas

Ron: How are you my friend.

John Vlismas: That's a dazzling CV. I hope that people get 10% of what you promised them that that will be a very good

Ron: That's

John Vlismas: outcome.

Ron: the bargain we've all learned. You know, don't think that everything on the box is what you get at the end of the deal.

John Vlismas: Exactly. Exactly.

Ron: Well, listen, thanks so much for joining me today.

John Vlismas: Thanks for asking.

Ron: The whole aim with Curious Cast I would say the golden thread is based upon me going through a rough patch and getting some help from psychologists, etc. and realizing that so many people in this day and age where you would assume people are comfortable to talk about it, don't actually talk about mental health and all the things that pertain to that. So I weave that through our story today. Although the focus is on fun stuff and talking about your life and your loves and your passions and family and all that kind of jazz.

John Vlismas: Right. Well, good. I'm sorry you went through those things. But, you know, in some ways, I guess it's how you get the adventure started,

Ron: Exactly. It's the best way to get to know ourselves. It's it's actually been a blessing. I'll always see it that way. So, listen, set the scene for us. Where do you live? What does family life look like at this stage and how do you balance that with work?

John Vlismas: So I have one child who lives with me and she's a young adult and she's quite remarkable. So I've got a I've got a young woman who handles my gender politics and the level of wokeness we live in Johannesburg, and she's getting into the creative industry on her own steam, which I'm very proud of, carving a

Ron: Very

John Vlismas: career

Ron: cool.

John Vlismas: for herself, which is very cool. Started as a writer and is moving into what seems to be more of a. Kind of what I'm doing, which is is what is the application for creative people in a more kind of aggressive business sense? I'm very proud of her for that. Uhm and yeah, I do little bits of comedy now and then. I'm trying to decide, I suppose, based on what you touched on about your own mental health, you know what's good for me and what isn't. But

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: I love teaching. I teach a fair amount at the business school that I studied at and am increasingly expanding The business that I've got a share of that I started with a friend a long time ago is a production company but but there's a strategy sort of service that we also it's increasingly based on my studies I'm being allowed to expand, which has been really, really cool.

Ron: very cool.

John Vlismas: Hmm.

Ron: I normally kick off a conversation asking, What did you dream of becoming as a kid and how it is

John Vlismas: A

Ron: what

John Vlismas: cool.

Ron: you're doing now compared to that? But I mean, just from the opening of this conversation, I gather that as most people should, you're still figuring out what that is, what you're actually doing now, what you want to do. But for the sake of entertainment, let's see what did Little John dream of becoming as a kid.

John Vlismas: So easy. I wanted to be a marine biologist and my mom very kindly organized for me to go and work or observe, not really work at the aquarium where we lived in Durban. And it's quite a well known, it's

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: not a fancy one, but it was a little bit less fancy, but still very scientifically interesting in its

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: day.

Ron: And it was still mind blowing to a kid.

John Vlismas: Well, I thought it would be because I thought that being a marine biologist meant diving with sharks and like,

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: you know, touching whales and, you know, eye contact with, seals. But what it really was was observing basically snot in a plate behind the scenes and blending

Ron: Okay.

John Vlismas: frozen fish for animals. So I lasted one day back behind the scenes at the Dolphinarium, and I was like, No, I don't

Ron: You.

John Vlismas: think I want to measure snot levels in turtles my whole life. So that was quick. That was my first thing I wanted to be, was a marine biologist, and my parents were always incredible in backing what we wanted to do. So that was amazing that they

Ron: That's

John Vlismas: let me

Ron: awesome

John Vlismas: realize it wasn't what I wanted to do.

Ron: I mean being one day worth of a marine biologist is longer than most people last so don't feel too bad about it. It's it's

John Vlismas: Exactly.

Ron: more than people achieve if they

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: dreamt that at your age and then tell us in a sort of a summary way, how did life lead you into the world of comedy?

John Vlismas: I'd like to say it was a mix of sort of fate and pathology. I now understand that I started making people laugh as a defense to cover certain, I'd say, underdeveloped personality

Ron: Mm hmm.

John Vlismas: call them defects, I suppose, in some systems. I suppose that's not a bad way to put it, but deficits, definitely.

Ron: There we go.

John Vlismas: So I did that. And the problem was that a fairly early I realized that there were other ways to get the same feeling. Shortcuts take shortcuts. Making people laugh was one of them. It can seem quite noble, but I've realized in life it's not about what you do. It's about why you do it. So.

Ron: Absolutely.

John Vlismas: I did that. And I did it well, you know, I did it really well. It kind of refined.

Ron: Bloody well. I

John Vlismas: Litigation.

Ron: wouldn't want you to under-describe how well you did. I mean, you went ahead and won awards here and overseas. So. Well done, my friend.

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: It

John Vlismas: Thanks.

Ron: was I mean, I think it's safe to say that you decided to step out of that world when you were probably at the highest point and then stepped into the business world. So I'd normally ask, what made you decide to throw all of your weight behind what you're doing? But I think you threw your weight behind a couple of things at this stage in your life. So let's talk about where you are at now. Describe for us what it is that you do with your agencies and your involvement in agencies.

John Vlismas: Okay. so I got out of comedy. About four or five years ago. My dad died and I was with him when he died

Ron: I'm

John Vlismas: and

Ron: sorry.

John Vlismas: yeah, thanks. You know, it happens. And the kakkest thing about losing a parent is when they die, you look at your remaining parents and go, oh, fantastic. We get two go's at this

Ron: Jho.

John Vlismas: so that was profound but but that's not the point. I don't want to make it sound like a big heroic story because I'm very good at that telling stories and placing myself. subtly as the hero and I was quite sick mentally around that time, and I don't want to put it all on my dad's death because I think that's cowardly. But I had not addressed certain those same defects that I thought I dealt with earlier in my life when I stopped drinking and doing certain drugs. But I hadn't I had failed to follow through on that. So those things worsened. And even though I haven't drunk for a very long time or haven't done certain drugs for a long time, I was kind of doing other things. I developed an eating disorder and I started using other drugs under the

Ron: Mm

John Vlismas: guise

Ron: hmm.

John Vlismas: of kind of microdosing and sort of, you know, dishonesty to self for something I've become very familiar

Ron: It's

John Vlismas: with. So.

Ron: something all of us do. No matter what shape it takes. We are all dishonest with ourselves about certain things in life, and the most mature thing we can do is just see them for what they are. That's all.

John Vlismas: Yeah, exactly. So I opted out of a lot of what I was involved in because it wasn't just my own mental health, but it was the issue with power that I had. I've always said that if you give a person a lot of power and sadly in South Africa, any kind of recognition is is a form of power. I can't

Ron: The.

John Vlismas: speak for the rest of the world because I don't know. But if you give someone who's not done the homework, the self work power, it's ugly

Ron: It

John Vlismas: so

Ron: spirals.

John Vlismas: that

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: it does spiral Exactly. And I don't need to you know, I'm not special in any way. I did something interesting for a long time, but I certainly didn't respect it. So I went through a journey. And I think I'm grateful for the difficulty that I experienced sort of coming to terms with my dad's death. And not only that, but also COVID was was a very useful accelerant.

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: You know, lots of things happened. I became very unwell and didn't behave very well. So just under two years ago, I decided to go back into treatment for some issues. One of them was the eating disorder.

Ron: Mm hmm.

John Vlismas: There was an underlying thing which, which I needed to get to grips with. And I now believe that even though I live the life of someone in recovery and because it's a good system for me, it's a very good personal system, it works for me. And

Ron: Absolutely.

John Vlismas: I encourage other people who struggle to try it because I like the peace it brings for me. But there are also other things. I'm now a little bit more sort of shaped in my spiritual life, so I've kind of made the decision a little while ago to sort of commit to Buddhism, which which has been a really good thing for me.

Ron: I can

John Vlismas: Meditation.

Ron: see that. I think anybody looking in from the outside can see that it's made a really significant impact and it's beautiful to see.

John Vlismas: Well, thanks. Dude, like I That's kind of what I love is that I start finding healthy people, reaching out to me, who actually are interested in other people being well.

Ron: Yup.

John Vlismas: So I kind of wasn't surprised when you made contact and say, oh, so I've done that and I've really focused on the one business I'm out of all the other businesses. I'm no longer

Ron: Okay.

John Vlismas: involved in the comedy, let's call it comedy admin that I was

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: involved in before. And I have a wonderful partnership with two business partners that have been friends for a very long time. One of

Ron: Fantastic.

John Vlismas: them over 30 years.

Ron: Wow.

John Vlismas: Yeah. Who's an operational kind of 'wiz' And not only that we share a background in theater and creativity, but she's B is also a brilliant operational human being. So she keeps the boys on track. And

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: I know

Ron: That

John Vlismas: that

Ron: in

John Vlismas: sounds.

Ron: and of itself, that kind of relationship with somebody who's been through it with you that is worth its weight in gold.

John Vlismas: Absolutely. I mean, I've never encountered a human who has such a capacity for other people's bullshit, including

Ron: Well,

John Vlismas: mine. So I'm deeply, deeply grateful.

Ron: thank goodness for those people.

John Vlismas: And yeah, yeah, yeah. And then our newer partner, Lwazi, who is just a brilliant human, who's got a great creative ability and. He's excellent at handling really big talent. So between B and Lwazi they run the production side of our business. I used to be very involved when that's all we did. But then

Ron: Uh huh

John Vlismas: with my studies and kind of publishing and stuff, I have moved into a place where we can now kind of talk to clients about what it is they have to achieve in terms of new end-state for audiences when we put together something. So we now look at all the things we put together, whether it's a conference or a campaign or of some kind that involves a 'live' experience. We think about behavioral change and creating communities that are going to gather around this particular thing and then how are they going to change together by the end of it? and then using business metrics to measure the success of all of those things. So that's a beautiful

Ron: That's

John Vlismas: space

Ron: a very

John Vlismas: that's

Ron: holistic

John Vlismas: opened up.

Ron: approach. That's amazing.

John Vlismas: Yeah. Yeah, I'm really I'm grateful because in the beginning it must have seemed like absolute gibberish to my

Ron: Sure.

John Vlismas: partners. And they were like, okay, what? But to their credit, they were like, okay, let show us, keep showing us. And then I did. And then we now have some wonderful clients that are big South African companies who trust us to work in a really it's kind of a dangerous space because it's a volatile my studies where around the relationship between black talent and white power in South

Ron: And

John Vlismas: African

Ron: we.

John Vlismas: boardrooms and

Ron: Well.

John Vlismas: so it's a hotbed. I experienced a lot of resistance and

Ron: Mm

John Vlismas: a

Ron: hmm.

John Vlismas: lot of tap dancing when I did the interviews Luckily, I've got to somehow in my background, I'm not I'm not a great student. I certainly wasn't a great student at school. I've done well academically at the business school at Henley. But but it's because I've been surrounded by incredible mentors, great teachers and colleagues who I teach with who I can never understate the value of teaching while you study. It's just it's an incredibly powerful enricher of any student is to

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: teach. And in fact in most religions the act of teaching is seen as I know in Islam specifically and spoken about is teaching is almost like an obligation of a student. It's it's it's also apparent in lots of other systems, so Judaism and Christianity. so I found that powerful. when I studied it all just seemed to come together. This my particular interest in the comedy world shocking people and building communities, which are audiences, like flash communities, manipulating them, taking them down one way where they think they're agreeing with a good idea and then suddenly having them agree with a terribly bad idea, as I've translated, because the schools allowed me to shape my own can't say subjects technically, but my own workshops and classes in other people's modules. And there's incredibly generous teachers, doctorates who have welcomed me in and then tested me and like almost tempted me because there's a lot of terror and resistance and like new order that I had to put in place because I'm a very I can seem like a very messy, disorganized thinker. But the Dean, particularly John Foster, he recognized in me a student, a scholar, and I I didn't know what he was talking about in the beginning, but that

Ron: Hmm.

John Vlismas: he kept at it. And I will always love him for that. But then I was embraced by, you know, Dr. Phuleng Makgodibe who's a wizard, doctor Melanie Prinsloo and Dr. Danie Petzer helped me to publish a white paper recently with

Ron: Amazing.

John Vlismas: some other writers. So it's just, you know, I have to I didn't realize how much a one man show is an incredible communal effort.

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: And now all I do is I feast on connections, but I try and nourish them and give back into those connections because ultimately in my life, if you ask where I am now it, I've realized that there is nothing other than connection.

Ron: Absolutely. It's what it all boils down to. If we can be of service to one another, no matter what shape the community takes, that's kind of what life's about.

Ron: if you had to summarize what you guys do in the agency now, I mean, you've

John Vlismas: Hmm.

Ron: touched on so many valuable subjects and so many ways in which you can enhance a business approach, especially in South Africa, especially with racial tension and political background. what is it that you guys do that somebody could approach you for?

John Vlismas: So ultimately, our question to everyone we pitched is, where does this hurt? And what we do is three things. We do strategy, design and production. so if you ask me in a nutshell, we would raise interest around something that's coming. We would build a community. We would increase the receptivity of that community to what's coming and then during what's coming. We would thrill people and delight them and plant seeds that will then pay off in the time after that event. I would say that that's probably the best way I can describe what we do.

Ron: Makes perfect sense. And I love the way you've described how you guys holistically approach something now and you measure the outcome afterwards, because I think that's probably where the most value lies

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: is

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: in following up.

John Vlismas: And there's a lot of creative agency work that goes on where they're cool people. And I like to put the best current research behind what we do. And the other thing I love to do is, is listen to the audience as much as possible so we can all sit around a table and go, you know what would be cool and have like a pinball machine in the lobby and, you know, astroturf in the toilet.

Ron: It's

John Vlismas: That's

Ron: not

John Vlismas: fun.

Ron: like Google's head offices - 

John Vlismas: Basically. But ultimately, when you get some really good qualitative doctorate level research is gathering information and really good high EQ qualitative research, and you apply humanity to the very best technology And then you've got this theatrical kind of love, you know, this love of that wonder that people get that sort of childlike wonder First time you take a person to watch the I don't know the light show, the fireworks or whatever

Ron: Sure.

John Vlismas: it might be. You get that one

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: wonder you want to see that. And I think Ben Zonder talks about it in his work with his orchestra. It's it's shining eyes, you know, you want to you want to help eyes shine and then.

Ron: Oh, that's a lovely visual.

John Vlismas: Yeah. And then ultimately what you want to try and do is guide your client that whatever they raise. So they're spending money, they're raising energy, they're kind of pulling attention. We work with a thing that I sort of use often with our campaigns called Newtonian Gain, which is if we take something from inside a finite system, a closed system, there will be a loss somewhere in the system. And you can look at that from avocados to diamonds to oil.

Ron: Literally

John Vlismas: It doesn't matter

Ron: everything.

John Vlismas: what

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: any profit comes from, somebody's not actually profit in a in a finite system, we can pretend value gets created. But we always say that value creation is a myth design by the greedy. There's value reassignments. So why I mentioned that is in the exchange between the consumer and the brand. If we apply gaming theory, so you can apply game theory, which is pure mathematics. But if you look at gaming theory, which is more on why people play games and game theory to some degree. And there's something that John Nash designed called the Nash Equilibrium, which explains that the best possible strategy for a sustainable game is that both sides play their best game and they don't deviate from their strategy they must play for a similar payout and they must disclose their strategies upfront. So it's not great in a highly competitive game where there's two players are just going to play a game. But when the game is consumer versus brand and you want to sustain that relationship and you want to sustain that community, you cannot ask the consumer for their loyalty, their money and their data, and all you give them is marketing. So, in other words, chance to win a possible discount, possible discount, false discount. So you're creating an imbalance, which means that

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: every campaign will run out of steam, whereas we look at a Nash equilibrium. So this is game theory, a Nash equilibrium. for every time a consumer engages with a brand and we like the brand to be honest and do something good with the energy that they're raising, not just make profit, this will make this campaign and the brand more sustainable. So that's something we look at. And in gaming theory we look at why people play games. So in other words, you can say that they kill time, they connect, they escape. sort of motivations. But the higher order needs psychologically, we gather around games to reconsider our values and to find meaning as beings. we consider all of this stuff. So when we say we're an agency, we don't have a pinball machine, we don't have Astroturf. What we do have is access to an incredible network, from psychologists who consider psychological safety to Ph.D. researchers who actually deliver research. And then we try to link everything we propose to the very best current research in our field.

Ron: That's incredible. The level of depth that you guys go to. And I actually want to ask you for an example if that's possible within the constraints of what you do to maybe talk about a client that you're proud of, of outcomes that you've achieved recently with this approach.

John Vlismas: Yes. So we can't publish any of our current campaigns because they're busy playing out day.

Ron: A.

John Vlismas: But all I can say is that we at the moment, we are working well with quite a big S.A. auto manufacturer and We are about to produce a leadership conference for a very, very innovative financial services provider for them. And there's an example I can use because I'm being very vague. but the concept here is that we build a community prior to this event for their leaders,

Ron: Mm hmm.

John Vlismas: and we then start to create gamified ways to engage with the design of the event and prior. So when they arise they will see the results of their own gaming

Ron: Oh,

John Vlismas: in

Ron: wow.

John Vlismas: the design of the event. and then after that we will have used that kind of gaming to actually emotionally sort of commit these people to this online community that will engage throughout the event because it will augment the live experience. And then after the event, instead of setting up work groups we're creating 'quest' teams. So each of the big business objectives will be reduced to kind of. The rules of the game, and then they will engage on those. let's call them work challenges or problems, they're going to solve them as games and playing the games online. For the next few months.

Ron: That just enhances the whole experience.

John Vlismas: Yeah. And what we will do is we're allowing them to be cross functional. You don't have to be involved in that particular part of the business to bring your particular talent to their team. So it breaks down. We just applying a whole lot of community rules that that are quite clever know. One of the problems in South Africa is that a group, small group hold on to a lot of power for a long time and I

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: know that's a universal theme of evolution

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: actually

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: doesn't just mean that white straight men over 50 are all toxic and evil.

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: And I'm one of them now. But because there's a lot of good stuff like the old mind dumps, if you go back to them, there's an incredible amount of institutional, tribal and primal knowledge that's locked away, experience that's locked away in those people and what the world is currently doing is switching them off. And we cannot teach inclusion or diversity if we only make it selective. So if you're a transgendered person of color, we want to hear you more than we want to hear someone who previously had too much voice.

Ron: Absolutely.

John Vlismas: We have to make it a safe space for everyone, because ultimately there will come a time when that transgendered person's time to be excluded will come back if we don't do this right.

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: So. So we work a lot in my white paper that I've just published is about diversity, equity and inclusion, the actual definitions. And it's quite funny because my partner is a very senior person in this field and she is about to do a piece of research on how to bring the white male back to the table. And that's quite interesting because I think it'll be unpopular in quite a few quarters.

Ron: Sure. But I mean, critical thinking. is always going to ruffle a few feathers. It's something that I read that you enjoy doing is engaging in critical thinking. No matter how many people are offended by it, it's it's so important.

John Vlismas: 100%. I think offense is something which we don't understand and I'm often wary of people who claim to be offended too quickly. we also use this word 'triggered' way too easily these

Ron: Far

John Vlismas: days.

Ron: too easily.

John Vlismas: I'm terrified that we have taught children that the word 'trigger' is an excuse.

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: And in most of the places where I find my biggest growth, a trigger is a teacher and they are people. And I don't want to pretend that they aren't for whom there has been extreme trauma. And and

Ron: Sure.

John Vlismas: this idea of being triggered is real. but I worry that we've now created Google psychologists who are running

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: around and using words they don't really understand the meaning of. And that's another thing about studying and doing a really detailed study on a subject and understanding the rigors of real research. It's too easy at a braai to just start saying things and using catchphrases, even in business. I think a lot of people use words because consultants have kind of peppered them into the lexicon. But.

Ron: Sure. It's part of our everyday lexicon now.

John Vlismas: Exactly. So I really worry that when you talk about diversity and what equity actually means and inclusion. so the decentralization of power is a real way to do things but It destabilizes the status quo. So giving land back to people has now become this terrifying. It's the new communism. It's the new

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: It's the new it's the new Satanist. It's the new. We always need, like a monster

Ron: There's

John Vlismas: on

Ron: always

John Vlismas: a

Ron: a scapegoat.

John Vlismas: hill.

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: Exactly. Exactly. So. So this decentralization of agency. but it's actually quite important and there's great work being done by A.I. developers who are understanding that for computers to distribute power is probably going to be the way forward, is this concept of D.A.O.'s decentralized, autonomous organizations?

Ron: Mm hmm.

John Vlismas: It could be the answer to democracy, possibly. You

Ron: Wow.

John Vlismas: know,

Ron: That's that's the stuff that I'm excited

John Vlismas: it's.

Ron: about with. A.I. think there's so much 'HOO-HA" about the concerns around A.I. and I don't think we'll get anywhere near that anytime soon. Things could change. I could be wrong, but I'm excited about the way that A.I. can decentralize so many things across the board. And it's what we need.

John Vlismas: Yeah. And why not? You know, we created war. We created, all kinds of demons. We made all this stuff, you know, we've made atomic bombs and then lost them. We don't even know where some of them are We kind of create famine. We create disease. And I'm not saying that someone in a lab in China. I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but I mean, as a concept of our existence, we've created things.

Ron: Of course.

John Vlismas: And, you know, humanity on earth was probably the reason for acquired immunodeficiency syndrome. so why not create A.I? we've created all the other demons that

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: we plan.

Ron: Go right

John Vlismas: We

Ron: ahead.

John Vlismas: just

Ron: Do what we

John Vlismas: we

Ron: can.

John Vlismas: say, Yeah, Google is a racist. It's not a racist. This is the search engine we put racist

Ron: Yes,

John Vlismas: questions in!

Ron: absolutely.

John Vlismas: so, so therefore, yes, then Google will seem to appear racist because it's a mirror

Ron: Yeah. They are just receptacles for the information that we put into them. That's what

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: it boils down to.

John Vlismas: And I'm glad to be a 50 year old scumbag looking, tattooed human. because I think my journey through art and then into academics has helped me a great deal because I didn't come through the way that many of my friends who I love and respect, I don't judge them as being better or worse. But they went a different way. They were good at school. They were orderly. They were compliant. They were diligent. They were disciplined. And today, a lot of them I was actually with a friend who's in his fifties who

Ron: Mm hmm.

John Vlismas: it almost pisses me off how stable his life is but It's beautiful. He's got a wonderful family. He's got a beautiful lifestyle. He's got amazing empire that he set up. And it's because he just did the right thing, you know, like so I know those people. But. But

Ron: And

John Vlismas: to add to the

Ron: I'm

John Vlismas: mix.

Ron: guessing he was incredibly diligent about it. I think it's the number one thing that people underestimate. There's no such thing as overnight success. Overnight success was years and years of hard work.

John Vlismas: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've been diligent about breaking rules and doing the wrong thing and, you know, like running straight at authority. And I've paid some prices. That's true. But I maybe have a different approach. I mean, I had a I had an academic who understood that I wasn't lost. I was just different. And he

Ron: That's

John Vlismas: gave

Ron: fantastic.

John Vlismas: me a chance. And I have to say that my entire process of doing my MBA was terror. I constantly felt about to get caught. I terrible

Ron: A

John Vlismas: doubt.

Ron: proper imposter syndrome.

John Vlismas: Totally. And luckily for me there was a great friend is a very alternative human who one day just sat me down. She's a Ph.D. who's just swears like a trooper and she's amazing.

Ron: This is the most honest people in the world. Thank goodness for them.

John Vlismas: 100%. And she just explained, like, I was fussing too much and like, like, just to stop it and just get on with it, you know? And then I did. And I'm very grateful to her So. So I think it's in a way maybe why I've gravitated towards diversity is because I understand what it's like to not. Feel like I fit in there And because I've maybe stood up and I've used bad words and I refuse to conform other people when I interview them don't feel bad to tell me what they're really thinking.

Ron: Absolutely.

John Vlismas: Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.

Ron: No, that's great stuff. So listen, before we wrap this section up and start moving over into mental health and listener questions.

John Vlismas: Hmm.

Ron: What are some upcoming events this year that you're excited about whether they of your clients that you're allowed to speak

John Vlismas: Oh,

Ron: of or whether they're your own?

John Vlismas: sure. Yeah. So one of the things I always look forward to is the Daily Maverick's gathering in Cape Town.

Ron: Oh, very

John Vlismas: And

Ron: cool.

John Vlismas: that's that's going to be a march - its the election special. And I'm super grateful that Branko and Styli the people who uhm, Branko started Maverick and Styli is the CEO allowed us to produce the gathering for the last I don't know, seven or eight years. It's just a brilliant collection of politicians trying their best not to talk kak and talking kak regardless and and being grilled by some of the best journalists in the country. It's just valuable day of news. And so that's something I urge anyone to either get to or

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: if

Ron: That's

John Vlismas: there's

Ron: wonderful.

John Vlismas: a lot of I think there'll be a livestream for other people. Check it out. It's really worthwhile. That's going to be amazing. I'm looking forward to the elections because I think the more we fragment the country's leadership, the more our democracy will mature. Give us some exciting new additions. The MK Party with Jacob Zuma is going to be definitely a box of fireworks. I think

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: we can all watch and I can't wait to see the kind of Newtonian gain on Julius as things fragment further. so that'll be interesting, I think. I may do something public comedy related in

Ron: Nice.

John Vlismas: the second quarter. Yeah. So that's going to be interesting. But I hope to blend it with some learning for the audience. So that would be like almost like a blend of the teaching and the comedy. So that should be good. Um, yeah, I'm just looking forward to this year coming because it feels like in some ways we've never been in a worse position as a country. But in other ways that seems to be when South Africans really get it together and

Ron: Absolutely.

John Vlismas: just like push. So let's see.

Ron: Now.

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: That's fantastic. I'm really excited, I'm sure you're excited to combine all of this experience that you've had and these new outlooks on life with comedy. Because at the end of the day, comedy is just a great way to reach people and teach people. So I'm

John Vlismas: uh-hm

Ron: I'm really excited to see what you bring us and I'll chat to you again closer to the time so that we can get the word out. That's awesome

John Vlismas: Thanks,

Ron: news.

John Vlismas: man. Thanks,

Ron: So,

John Vlismas: Ron.

Ron: listen, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, there's some listener questions and we'll touch again on some mental health goodies.

Ron: Okay. So let's talk about. I call this the mental health section, but it's less that than it is just reminding people you know what, all of us are actually the bloody same and we all

John Vlismas: Absolutely.

Ron: worry about the same shit. So it's nice to hear other people talk about it. But before

John Vlismas: Absolutely.

Ron: we get into the deep stuff you mentioned earlier, while we spoke about your professional life and your mentors, you mentioned Pieter Dirk-Uys as one of the people that was a mentor to you. I read in an article somewhere that beautiful interaction you had and I would love for you to relay that.

John Vlismas: I think you're referring to that first time we ever really met.

Ron: Yes. Yes.

John Vlismas: And yeah, so I had some difficult decisions to make about TV and whether or not I would continue in that area. so my manager said, Well, do you want to speak to someone that you kind of like really look up to So I said, Yeah, that'd be great. So he said, okay, well, who? So then I said, I took a chance, I said "Well, Pieter Dirk-Uys" not knowing if that was even possible. Anyway, before I knew it, I was in Cape Town and we were heading in a car on a Sunday morning to Darling.

Ron: Oh,

John Vlismas: And

Ron: my word. How cool is that?

John Vlismas: yeah, Peter had invited us to watch his Sunday, afternoon show. So off we went and, I was in the passenger seat and I was reading the Sunday Times to my manager. Like we were just joking around, reading stories and whatever. Anyway, we got there and then the next thing we were in 'Evita se Perron' and Evita walks out on stage with the Sunday

Ron: Oh,

John Vlismas: paper.

Ron: what a moment.

John Vlismas: and the whole show came out of that newspaper. It was just unbelievable that he

Ron: Wow.

John Vlismas: had written the show, that he'd read the newspaper that morning was just a bit, like, effortless. It didn't look like work. It just looked like Evita was sitting on her own veranda, reading the paper and just chatting to us about what she saw. And it was just brilliant. So that was amazing. And then afterwards we were kind of eating lunch and we were served lunch and then we didn't see Peter, so we thought, Oh, maybe he thought just come and watch the show, which is very kind of him. But the next thing he came out, he'd been taking off the makeup and. He came out and sat with us, and it was just the most generous, wonderful, like he said to me at one point, But, John, you know, we are artists. And I almost got emo... I couldn't believe that he was calling me an artist!

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: It

Ron: I can't

John Vlismas: was just

Ron: tell you how happy I am that you had that interaction. That's the most beautiful thing to hear.

John Vlismas: Peter is beyond a gentleman. He's just the most remarkable human he puts so much humanity into his work that it's hard not to be deeply, moved in that direction.

Ron: another great example of how you use comedy to reach and teach people. He did that during apartheid and after apartheid and democracy.

John Vlismas: That's right nice.

Ron: And and he he held our hand through comedy.

John Vlismas: Yeah, he absolutely did all of those things. But above that, Pieter has actually uplifted the community he lives in and many other. He's done lots and lots of good, enormous amounts of good. He's never gone the sort of heavily commercial exploitation route and whatever he makes, he always makes sure the value goes back into the communities. And that's something I've only really got to later in life which, I really admire. But, but the thing I think you also mention is in a way, it was that thing of like, you know, he just provided for me this reassurance, like, I'm a weirdo and you're a weirdo And look, weirdos will be okay, you know? And it was just the most beautiful moment of being accepted into a community. I'll always remember what he did for me, it was it was very special.

Ron: It's so affirming for us when we when we meet those people that we look up to. So, listen, I'm sure that there are many you've touched upon some of the hardships that you overcome in your life. And I thank you for being open about them. But what would you say was the the worst hardship that you had to overcome to reach where you are now, just for the sake of helping people understand that they might think they're going through the worst thing in the world, but if they listen

John Vlismas: So.

Ron: to someone else's story, they realize it's not that big a mountain.

John Vlismas: So I mean, I've become very aware of my own internal responses these days. So my first response would be alcohol. Because it's such an insidious

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: substance and it's so socially

Ron: That's what blows

John Vlismas: ingrained.

Ron: my mind is that some of the most dangerous things in the world are almost glorified. If you look at gun laws in America and the way that alcohol is glorified through the media blows my mind.

John Vlismas: Yeah. And it's the level at which it's okay versus how other drugs are judged. that's a very interesting

Ron: Hmm.

John Vlismas: double standard for me, because most kids are raised to believe that when you celebrate, you drink, when you are sad,

Ron: This.

John Vlismas: you drink. So there's like a coding about that. But the reason I'm not going to say that is because I don't think it's enough. I think we over empower substances when we talk like that. Make alcohol the monster. The hardest thing for me has been dealing with the fact that I'm not a nice human being when I'm not well

Ron: Hmm.

John Vlismas: and it's learning to make friends with myself. It's that 4AM wake up anxiety about things I know I've done that I could have done better or shouldn't have done or

Ron: You.

John Vlismas: dishonesty or it's that dis ease of feeling insecure, but then using power as a sort of a really bad medicine for insecurity and

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: never dealing with my stuff. so what I want to say is that in addiction circles, we talk about addiction as being two things. It's the opposite of connection. So its that isolation, That's

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: the first thing. But it's also that being cut off from other human beings, pretending that I'm anti-social, pretending that there, are reasons why I shouldn't work hard to connect to people all the time. then sitting in that little safe room, whether it's a safe room. So so I didn't have a great time as a child. I was really badly abused and for some part of my life and sexually abused. And it was there's lots tied up in that because it's, you know,

Ron: Of

John Vlismas: this

Ron: course.

John Vlismas: shame and there's guilt and this that confusion and all of that stuff. But I also don't dwell on that and I don't blame it, because that's also a thing that I've learned recently, is that none of those things that happened was my fault. But

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: they always remain my responsibility. And the

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: moment I abdicate responsibility, I'm giving that abuse power that it doesn't deserve. so what I want to say to you is that.

Ron: Well done. Gees, the amount of hats I should be taking off

John Vlismas: Oh,

Ron: to you. I look like

John Vlismas: no,

Ron: the Mad

John Vlismas: no,

Ron: Hatter.

John Vlismas: no, it's not. It's not all me. I hurt a lot of people. I was never an active abuser, a sexual abuser of people. But but I certainly did not behave well. And power became an ugly thing with me. so what I want to say when you say what's the greatest hardship is? I think turning 48 in a rehabilitation facility was quite a sobering moment for me, particularly

Ron: Sure.

John Vlismas: when I didn't check in with a health crisis.

Ron: Mm

John Vlismas: I

Ron: hmm.

John Vlismas: was quite sick from my eating disorder. I was bulimic for about 12 years, and it certainly did not make me healthy. And

Ron: No.

John Vlismas: so I had some physical damage. But more than that, it was the the I'm going to say the spiritual states. And, you know, people might interpret that as religious. The not the same thing. But

Ron: No, absolutely not.

John Vlismas: there's a part of me, whether you believe it's in my sort of part of my brain, whether you think it's situated in my gut. I mean, there's a millions of different ideas

Ron: Mm

John Vlismas: here,

Ron: hmm.

John Vlismas: but whatever that observer is however other other people might label it, I don't mind. What I do know now is that I've acknowledged it and I try to respect the health of that observer and the observers within others that observer being sick was the hardest thing I've ever faced because I had to admit it and then live with the truth of how it got sick and work through that process. And

Ron: Hmm.

John Vlismas: I'm still doing that because I don't think we ever get to the end of it. and then the next part is that is the kind of discomfort of being awake to that stuff. Whereas before I was kind of anesthetizing myself whether it's by lies or substances or eating

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: or spending money or power or, you know, using other people. so there was that. but then I want to say that There's a beautiful thing which happens, which I always talk about, is climbing a mountain. So for me, what's wrong with me? Puts me on a mountain and I can either stay at the bottom where I'll probably die But if I learn to climb and then what I'm learning in later life is that it's not about getting to the top, because the top of the mountain is actually quite shit.

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: nothing is up there. It's windy, it's exposed, it's cold, there's no running water, there's no food, there's no life. So. all I get is a sense of being at the top. That's my ego. But if I learn to wake up every morning and ignore where I am on the mountain, I know that today I'm going to climb and love climbing and respect the fact that everyone I meet is also climbing. And sometimes they fall and sometimes they're above me. And sometimes they're at the same level. It doesn't really matter, but I need to know that I learn to practice climbing and love climbing for the sake of climbing. Then there's a peace. There's a presence. I'm here now. I'm climbing. In this moment, I'm trying to be as clear as I can and present in this moment that's climbing. So. it was that belief that I would never be able to climb that I think was the hardest thing I had to deal with, because that

Ron: Wow.

John Vlismas: Doubt stopped me and I made up all sorts of shit to convince myself that I couldn't climb anymore.

Ron: Hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm. That's

John Vlismas: And.

Ron: incredible,

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: the way that you achieved that. you certainly took a few roads to get there, but it's nice to be at a place now where you can look back on so many things with less hurt And you. are excited about the future.

John Vlismas: Yeah. You know, to recognize that all are one for all. the people I meet is to be. Well, that's

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: an act. That's a big deal because it starts in my family and then seems to be kind of radiating out. I can't, you know, I can't fix all the damage I did it's often a safe room that a child built at a young age and to try and survive and

Ron: Yes.

John Vlismas: becomes a prison. And what kept me safe at one point is not appropriate because what happened wasn't appropriate so now a life is not that threat so I can't hide there all the time. I've got to come out and I like this. My daughter and I, I've got a joke about like when you say something really difficult is a little bit of vomit to the back of your throat when you say it, but like, we have a very good relationship and we able to talk in these terms

Ron: How cool

John Vlismas: and.

Ron: is that? I mean, it's just the most special thing in the world when you have a daughter that you get to relate to and joke with in that way. Truly special. Listen, next question. If we look at that beautiful analogy you gave now of the mountain and we all saw the picture as you sketched it out for us, if you had to relay that knowledge to your younger self, especially prior to any form of abuse happening, and you could implant a seed of knowledge into yourself, what would that knowledge be? that you would give to yourself and to anyone else listening?

John Vlismas: that's a great question. I mean, I think the thing that's helped me the most is when something hurts. Try to keep opening your heart. Don't shut it down.

Ron: That's fantastic.

John Vlismas: It's actually a Buddhist practice called Tanglin.

Ron: Is.

John Vlismas: And Tonglen is about giving when you don't think you can. I'm really paraphrasing here, and there may be lots of Buddhist scholars who disagree, but

Ron: I.

John Vlismas: that for me, I went through something not so long ago that was really painful and what I decided was to try and use that approach. And just the other day, I've got something going on in my life at the moment that's a little bit challenging. A loved one is not well. And I was talking to my partner and she was saying, How are you doing? I said, I'm really struggling just to not put armour on because it feels like the right thing to do is toughen up and switch off my connections and get to work on trying to solve this thing. But I can't and

Ron: No.

John Vlismas: there's no other way other than what's going to happen is going to happen. And so I just said to her, like, what I'm going to try and do is stay open in there. Like, it's just cool to be able to say that to someone this.

Ron: That's amazing.

John Vlismas: You know, like, I just it's counterintuitive for the way I grew up. but it's something I'm trying to do more and more. So don't just flip a switch and get it done. I have to, like, really feel it. I have to understand that I'm being a bit of a dick that like things are not I'm not feeling connected in the moment. I've kind of left where I'm sitting right now. I'm kind of right off from the future, which I don't belong there and I belong in the past. Maybe that's the piece of advice is, is, you know, when I'm when I'm trying to be in the future, I'm not designed to be in the future.

Ron: yes

John Vlismas: It's impossible. I'm not designed to be in the past. So both of those will be uncomfortable. But if I can just be here now it's exactly what my body is designed to be in this moment. So there's a sense of fit and Try find the fit. Yeah.

Ron: I love it. Find the fit. That's totally the t shirt we're

John Vlismas: What's.

Ron: taking away from this from this recording.

Ron: Okay. over to some listener question. Johan in the Western

John Vlismas: This.

Ron: Cape says it's like looking at the social media feed for a Star Wars hero, the amount of wisdom that you share in the motivational content. How did that change from comedy content to motivational, insightful content?

John Vlismas: I'm letting Johan know that I'm sitting at my computer desk staring at my little statue of Yoda as

Ron: I

John Vlismas: you as

Ron: was

John Vlismas: you

Ron: weak.

John Vlismas: read that. So thanks Johan, its really you know, thanks. It's a good question. I think it has to do with being tired of being. diseased, Actually, I think that's the best way I can put it is it wasn't. It's not a it's not a crisis. It's not a profound thing. It's just one day waking up and going, I am really not well and I don't want to spend the rest of my life like this. And so. I think partially a beautiful group of people at a treatment center were really helpful to me. And I'm talking not just about the staff, who are amazing. But the people that were in there with me I have to thank them and I have to thank people I hurt who called me out. I think that was important.

Ron: Mm hmm.

John Vlismas: Yeah. So I think it's just this decision that I don't want to be diseased anymore. That really got me on to this road. And then because of that, somehow I just resonated with the idea of Buddhism. And I wandered into a Buddhist center one day and I met a very nice nun who was so helpful and so kind. And then I met a monk who is amazing and funny and. found my way home, you know?

Ron: I totally hear what you're saying. And it's so nice to draw a parallel with somebody like Jay Shetty when he encountered a monk for the first time. He made a joke and he said to his friends, Guys, I don't feel like going to the speech by a guy who basically lives in the same clothing every day and shaves his hair.

Ron: As long as we go out for beers afterwards, then maybe I'll go with you to this talk.

Ron: and ended up being the most valuable thing he had ever attended. He went to India for years and then came back and now is on a completely different road. And I can hear that's what you're saying. It's these little interactions that you don't expect to change your life that end up doing exactly that.

John Vlismas: Exactly. Exactly.

Ron: Nathan in Brisbane wants to know what was the highlight of your comedy career?

John Vlismas: It's a great question. I suppose the two things that I'll never forget The one is the day that we were appointed 46664 ambassadors, a bunch of us, and we got to meet Madiba.

Ron: Oh,

John Vlismas: And

Ron: wow.

John Vlismas: that was just something which I was emotional because I've never been really a clean comedian. I've never been a safe comedian. And. It means something to me that I could be myself. And because one thing was made clear to us in those shows is that we didn't have to censor ourselves.

Ron: Hmm.

John Vlismas: And I really appreciated that. It was amazing to shake Madiba's hand. I don't know that he knew it was very late in his life, and I don't know that he even knew what was happening at that point But it was just special to be around him. And I know that's

Ron: Absolutely.

John Vlismas: a cliché. Everyone's like "Ah, Madiba!" but I don't care.

Ron: No.

John Vlismas: He

Ron: There

John Vlismas: was

Ron: was

John Vlismas: amazing.

Ron: something special about him. No matter what anybody says, there was an aura about the man.

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: And he'll always be somebody that all of us could look up to.

John Vlismas: Yeah,

Ron: And

John Vlismas: that.

Ron: how cool that you weren't censored for something like 46664 something that's an international platform. And you get every age of listener and viewer. And they didn't censor you, That's awesome.

John Vlismas: And you know, when I was asked by a well-known media lawyer to help to ask other comedians to gather some submissions for some material for a request to stop the hate speech bill. And we did that. In fact, Pieter was very involved (Pieter Dirk-Uys) But yeah, that was quite special that we were able to get a chance to contribute towards the stopping of a bill which would have limited religious people from reading their own books out loud in public. I'm not a huge fan of any organized religion, but that's changing a little bit for me because I have more respect for anyone's religion actually than I've ever had.

Ron: Sure.

John Vlismas: And more than that, I don't agree that just because you belong to, let's say, Islam or Christianity, that anybody should arrest you for reading your book.

Ron: No. There

John Vlismas: And.

Ron: should be no suppression of anyone.

John Vlismas: Yeah. In fact, we should. We should promote people for reading in their jobs.

Ron: No matter what shape it takes at this stage. Please

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: read. That's fantastic.

John Vlismas: So that was cool. And then the last one I think was just when we played the Royal Albert Hall, a bunch of us, and it was full of South Africans

Ron: Oh, fantastic.

John Vlismas: and that was a really special moment.

Ron: And

John Vlismas: So

Ron: it wouldn't surprise

John Vlismas: you.

Ron: me if most of the audience was South African, because there's loads of us over there.

John Vlismas: Yeah, exactly. No, no. There's so many. And then another one was very early in my career, I was able to open up a show for Steven Wright at the Standard Bank Arena. And and that was very special. And it's a huge Steven Wright fan. And so to meet him and work with him was very, very special.

Ron: What an affirmation. That's fantastic.

John Vlismas: She's.

Ron: All right. Last question. This one's from Yusuf in Abu Dhabi. What's your advice to people who are considering getting into standup comedy?

John Vlismas: I just do it, man.

Ron: Just

John Vlismas: Stop asking.

Ron: do it. Yeah.

John Vlismas: Stop. Stop talking about it Yusuf Just do it, man.

Ron: It's actually

John Vlismas: And.

Ron: so true of anything in life. Just

John Vlismas: Exactly.

Ron: do it.

John Vlismas: Exactly. I always say to people, like just go, book a comedy club, open spots, like I don't want to hear why you shouldn't or

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: I can't do it this week. I'll

Ron: Just

John Vlismas: just

Ron: sweat on stage.

John Vlismas: go exactly book it. And when it's finished, do another one and book another one, book another one and just do

Ron: Lord.

John Vlismas: it like you don't need to ask anyone advice. Just go and listen to the audience.

Ron: And

John Vlismas: No,

Ron: trust your gut. Listen to

John Vlismas: exactly.

Ron: your gut.

John Vlismas: Yeah. People come off stage and they say to me, How was I? I don't know, dude. Like I'm not you!

Ron: It was a blur.

John Vlismas: You know, I'd have to watch you closely for like six months to form any kind of opinion, but. But like, what did the audience say? Because that's actually who you're here for not me. And what do I know? I know like one language of comedy. You might be the one I don't understand. So

Ron: I.

John Vlismas: don't worry what I think. Just go and fucking go and do it. Like just go and do more comedy stage time. So, Yusuf, my answer is, you know, just jump in, find club, ask for an open spot, if they don't have one, find another one. Ask for an open spot. When you've done that open spot, do another one. But if you can listen to the audience because they will tell you everything you need to know.

Ron: Absolutely.

Ron: Listen, before we go, was there anything that we haven't covered that you hoped we would talk about?

John Vlismas: You! What's going on with you? I mean, you said you would talk about your journey, but you didn't. I don't know. I still don't know what your journey was. I know

Ron: No,

John Vlismas: we met

Ron: no, no.

John Vlismas: ten years ago. And then what happened?

Ron: It is crazy. It was it was so special. Looking back on this past decade, that feels like a blur. It

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: really does.

Ron: Back then I was in commercial radio and quickly realized that's not my vibe. And I never, ever thought that I would pick up any form of microphone and speak to people again. Not because it was a scarring experience, not by any measure. It's just that my passions are graphic design and field guiding and so forth, things that aren't really any form of presenter nature. So even doing this, deciding to finally do the podcast as a result of going through therapy and realizing that people need to hear these conversations. I didn't want the focus to be on me. So thank you for asking. If I had to respond honestly, I'd say it's going so incredibly well with me. I've been surrounded by people who probably didn't think that they would be of any consequence, intervention or inspiration in my life. But you never know when you inspire somebody. That was one of the nicest things that I've ever heard and realized of my own behavior as well. Just smiling at the person who takes a toll fee or recognizing good service or noticing somebody's name and addressing them by their name and asking how their day's going. Those kinds of things make a massive impression when you least expect them to.

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: So

Ron: I've learned over this past year, while planning this podcast that these episodes, as much as they are, I mean, it's 100% a selfish thing. I'm not being humanitarian here. These conversations are for me.

Ron: I

John Vlismas: Good.

Ron: love speaking

Ron: to you guys. You guys are friends to me - in a way we all feel like family, a global family. So the conversations are to learn more about you. It's for my interest, but at the same time, and probably more so, it's like we can create a community where talking about mental health and what we go through and how to address certain things is easier to talk about and keeps getting easier because that's how we solve most of the world's problems is conversation.

John Vlismas: Exactly. Just sharing. You know,

Ron: Yeah. No, it's it's been it's been a

John Vlismas: that's

Ron: joy

John Vlismas: amazing.

Ron: I the thing and I don't know what shape it will take. This is probably the fifth or the sixth interview that I've that I've done. And

John Vlismas: So

Ron: I thank you so much for being a part of it. At the outset

John Vlismas: all.

Ron: of something so bloody new, you've taken the nicest risk. I thank you for that.

John Vlismas: No,

Ron: And.

John Vlismas: man. It was cool that you asked.

Ron: I can see this doing, a couple of seasons and depending on the response from people when it launches in the next week, I'll be speaking in the past if people listen to this and a few months from now, but it launches in the second week of January. And based on the response from people. Who knows, might not even decide to do seasons. Just keep it going. I would love that.

John Vlismas: I mean, I wish all the best because I think there's so many podcasts that talk about nothing. And I think the wellness of the people in the world is just a really important topic. So I think it's great. And I mean, you know, I've always liked your interview style and you do

Ron: Thank

John Vlismas: a great job. Yeah.

Ron: you.

John Vlismas: So.

Ron: You were literally the first person who ever commented on my interview style. And you planted a seed. Then you made me think, Oh, maybe. Maybe there's something to this.

John Vlismas: Well, that's great. That's fantastic. Because

Ron: And that's

John Vlismas: on.

Ron: exactly what I mean. That's exactly what I was referring to, is that you never know when saying something nice to someone,

John Vlismas: And.

Ron: something genuine might course correct them in a way that you can't even imagine in that moment.

John Vlismas: Yeah. Well, I think that's the thing. I've a very smart person I meet with once a week who said to me that you never dance directly with anyone, but you're part of their dance and

Ron: Isn't that stunning?

John Vlismas: yeah, you know. And so, you know, you might have heard that comments and brushed it off or done nothing about it or I don't know, So it's great that you heard it, but I mean, you did something with it. And that's that's what's remarkable. That's the rewarding part, is

Ron: Yeah.

John Vlismas: that you.

Ron: And it's a blessing. I mean, I think as much as you do, I recognize that being South African means we we come from this beautifully woven tapestry of backgrounds and cultures and people and outlooks on life. And we have so much experience in life just being South African that it makes for a great place to talk from and with people.

John Vlismas: There are some professionals in the rest of the world who believe that South Africans are almost innate experts on diversity because of the background here.

Ron: Well, I think we're bloody awesome. That's all that matters.

Ron: Listen, final question. What could everyone do right now in this very second to make the world a better place?

John Vlismas: Stop the drama.

Ron: Yeah. True

John Vlismas: We don't.

Ron: story.

John Vlismas: You don't. Once you're doing drama, we're at the middle. We're never at the middle of we're healthy. We're at the edge with everyone else.

Ron: Yeah. Absolutely.

John Vlismas: So that's my thing is I try and I don't always get it right, but I try not to be at the middle of my own drama.

Ron: We get so caught up in it so quickly, it happens so quickly that we spiral out of control if we overthink. And I think that's what you're referring to is stop overthinking,

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: stop dramatizing stuff, stop making mountains out of molehills, take a breath,

John Vlismas: You

Ron: take a chill and

John Vlismas: know,

Ron: see it for what it is.

John Vlismas: if you need something, help someone.

Ron: I love that. That's

John Vlismas: Yeah.

Ron: that's probably the most undervalued way of improving your own mood. It's so selfish, but at the same time, it's not helping other people being of service to other people. It's an instant mood changer. Instant.

John Vlismas: It's got a super clean byproduct product.

Ron: Listen My friend, I can't thank you enough for

John Vlismas: Thanks,

Ron: chatting

John Vlismas: Ron.

Ron: today and for being honest and open about your life and your journey thus far. I am fully and firmly convinced that this will touch at least one person listening, and I look forward to catching up with you in future.

John Vlismas: Yeah, man, it's been so cool catching up again. Let's not wait ten years

Ron: No. Absolutely not. There's no way. You take care, And

John Vlismas: to

Ron: thank you again.

John Vlismas: Any time, Ron, Thanks so much.

Ron: Okay, brother. Love

John Vlismas: Is

Ron: you.

John Vlismas: it

Ron: Bye.

John Vlismas: to by.