Craig Cameron-Mackintosh on Growing up in the bush, The paths that led him to art, Colour blindness, winning the Sanlam Portrait Award, and the raunchy life of Billy Monk!

In this episode we embark on an artistic adventure with the one and only Craig Cameron-Mackintosh. Picture this: a young talent from the Lowveld landscapes of White River, South Africa, Craig's journey into the world of art was like a brushstroke of destiny. From doodles as a kid to mastering the art of oil painting, his story is a canvas filled with passion and creativity.

But it was his move to Cape Town that truly ignited his artistic flame. Studying filmmaking at AFDA not only added depth to his craft but also infused his paintings with a cinematic quality. Craig's ability to play with light and shadow leaves viewers spellbound.

And oh, did I mention his accolades? From winning the Sanlam Portrait Award in 2019 to artist residencies in Berlin and Lion Sands, Craig's journey is nothing short of extraordinary. This year he has already showcased his works at the Investec Cape Town Art Fair 2024 – and that’s just the start of what’s to come!

So, join along as we uncover Craig's world, where art meets heart, and every brushstroke tells a story.

Find Craig on social media @craigcameron_mackintosh on Instagram and Facebook to see all that he is up to!

Visit his website at www.craigcameron-mackintosh.com for more information. His Artsy profile is https://www.artsy.net/artist/craig-cameron-mackintosh.

@billymonkcollection

www.billymonk.com

Gallery: https://www.billymonk.com/nightclub-photographs

Billy Monk – Shot in the Dark: https://vimeo.com/327908758

Trailer: https://vimeo.com/337239174

INSTAGRAM & FACEBOOK @castandthecurious

www.curiouscast.co.za
shoutout@curiouscast.co.za

Transcript

Ron: In this episode, we embark on an artistic adventure with the one and only Craig Cameron Mackintosh. Picture this; a young talent from the Lowveld landscapes of White River in South Africa. Craig's journey into the world of art was like a brush stroke of destiny. From doodles as a kid to mastering the art of oil painting, his story is a canvas filled with passion and creativity. But it was his move to Cape Town that truly ignited his artistic flame. Studying filmmaking at AFDA not only added depth to his craft, but also infused his paintings with a cinematic quality. Craig's ability to play with light and shadow leaves viewers spellbound. And did I mention his accolades from winning the Sanlam Portrait Award in 2019 to artists residencies in Berlin and Lion Sands, Craig's journey is nothing short of extraordinary. This year he has already showcased his works at the Investec Cape Town Art Fair. And that's just the start of what's to come. So join along as we uncover Craig's world where art meets heart and every brushstroke tells a story. Craig, how are you, my friend?

Craig: Hey Ron! I'm good, thanks. How are you doing?

Ron: Good! This Lowveld weather is very strange this year. I know that you used to be a Lowveld boy as well. And you get a gauge of what the weather is going to be like from Cape Town. You sort of send your weather our way. We died of heat this

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: past weekend and today I feel like I need to be wearing a jacket. Which reminds me of the time that I lived in Cape Town. How's your day looking?

Craig: The weather's cleared up because we had a bit of rain, unexpected February rain on Saturday. And like you said, I always give my family up in White River a bit of a heads up that you might be expecting some

Ron: I

Craig: bad weather because

Ron: okay

Craig: we're

Ron: so just send the nice

Craig: sending.

Ron: weather our way! Just let it pan out now I feel like it's autumn. It should be stable weather by now.

Craig: I know that's my favorite time of the year in the low felt

Ron: Yeah.

Craig: sort

Ron: And you

Craig: of.

Ron: said you're going to be visiting soon,

Craig: I'll be there for a week next week. So I'm looking forward to a bit of time in the Lowveld and the bush.

Ron: I always like a bit of a chat around family life Where did you grow up? Where are you living now? Who are you living with? Paint a picture for those who don't know.

Craig: So I grew up in White River. I've got an older sister, Cathy and my mum Liz and my dad, Pete and Kathy and my mom still live in White River and my dad lives in Cape Town. So I'm lucky that I get to have either parent here. And when I'm not in Cape Town, I'm getting to enjoy the lowveld. So I feel very lucky that I

Ron: It really

Craig: get

Ron: is

Craig: to see

Ron: the best of both

Craig: up

Ron: worlds.

Craig: two of the most beautiful parts of the country. I went to school at Uplands and left when I was 18 and I did a little gap year. I worked on private yachts, which was quite an eye opener

Ron: Oh,

Craig: for

Ron: wow.

Craig: me. Yeah. So it was, it was just a little pause in the direction that I thought I was going to go. Um, which is I was thinking I was going to come back and study fine art and the yachting world kind of derailed that a little bit in that before I went on board, I had to do a full medical exam and the final test was a colorblind test. And the doctor said to me, So how do you think you did in the colorblind test? And I said, Well, I think I did pretty well. I think I got 100%. And he

Ron: For.

Craig: was like, No, I'm afraid to say you you got to 0%. And

Ron: What?

Craig: yeah, so it was just now my world came crashing down and I was I was had

Ron: Holy

Craig: never considered

Ron: crap. But

Craig: this.

Ron: wait, wait. How did you guys not realize that at school?

Craig: I know. I mean, looking back now that I could kind of see the signs and maybe I was

Ron: Oh.

Craig: just you're just sort of oblivious Yeah, it's also a bit of a hard thing to explain it for me to comprehend, but. In one way, I suppose you you've become used to what you learn and everything then becomes relative.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: But one optometrist explained it in quite an interesting way. She said that normal sighted people have three working rods and cones and can differentiate between a million different colors and hues within that color spectrum.

Ron: Hmm.

Craig: And then you get tetrachromatics who have four working rods and cones and can see a huge range of colors, 4 million and then colorblind, It's two working rods and cones and then you can differentiate between 100,000. So I can see the whole spectrum, the whole color chart, but just not as intense. And where the spectrum starts to blend into another, that then becomes a little bit tricky. So

Ron: That's incredible.

Craig: yeah.

Ron: I studied field guiding, as you know. And it was the first

Craig: When?

Ron: time that I got to do with rods and cones in the eye and Rhodopsin and how Vitamin A converts to Rhodopsin and how that that aspect of the eye works, being able to distinguish colors and shapes during night and day because that all pertains to the animal world. But I've never gone into detail about colorblindness. So what you're saying is that on colorblindness there's a spectrum as well, and you could be even more colorblind than you currently are. There are

Craig: Yes.

Ron: people who have less visual acuity in terms of color.

Craig: Yes, I think so. And it's such a relative thing and such a personal thing. And it's hard to to know what you don't know.

Ron: Which,

Craig: So,

Ron: of course. That's life.

Craig: yeah, it's and it's always a fascinating thing to wonder what people's outlook on the world is, because you can't see through their eyes.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: And I guess that's where the the poetry of painting comes in, because what you are presenting to the world is simply your viewpoint and how you see the world and how colors and light are perceived by you. So it kind of paid off in the end. It was the reason why when I was done with my gap year, I thought, there's no way I can go to Michalis fine art school to study something where I'll be on a back foot. So yeah. That's

Ron: So

Craig: why I went off

Ron: that's

Craig: in the, in the

Ron: I

Craig: filmmaking

Ron: mean,

Craig: direction.

Ron: when when I learned that because I did ask you to send some information my way in terms of a bio just for me to read up. It'd be silly to ask stupid questions that I could have had the answer to beforehand. One thinks, 'you know your friends', But

Craig: We?

Ron: what I want to get to is the fact that you didn't go to study this and it flowed naturally. But before we get there, another question I always ask, because it's nice for people to know this. I try and paint a picture that people can relate to always. What is it that you dreamt of becoming as a kid, before yachting was a thing, before you even realized that studying fine art could be a thing? What was your dream as a boy?

Craig: It was always to be an artist who happened to live in the bush and also be a game ranger or what we call Field Guide now. So yeah, that was always my boyhood to be

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: driving around in a landrover and painting in the bush. So.

Ron: So you're already like at least halfway there.

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: You're making it up. that's amazing. All right. So now that we've touched upon the subject, you then completed working on the yachts. You thought you'd study fine art. Surprise, surprise! An eye test tells you you won't. I'm assuming it's because they expect a certain level of perception of color and depth in order to attend these schools. I don't know. It seems like a bit of a farce A very good trend

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: at one point told me that in most people's cases, and I'm not looking down on anyone or speaking down about it, but it was an interesting observation from him as a as a highly studied person, he said that colleges and universities are generally there to polish the pebbles and dim the diamonds, which

Craig: That.

Ron: was such a nice way of putting it

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: that you take people with various levels of skill and you upskill them to the point where they sort of at the same level. But that doesn't mean they have the same drive in life. That doesn't mean they have the same outlook. You can make everybody study photography, but not everybody's going to understand composition, you know.

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: So you have then become, I would assume, an autodidact artist somebody who's self-taught. Would you say that's accurate?

Craig: Yes, to a certain extent, because although I didn't study it formally along the way, I've made sure that I've taken up every course and workshop that I can get my hands on just to improve my skills. And a lot of the time these very condensed workshops, which are sometimes taught by people who have come off quite an intense three year degree, I feel like you're getting the distilled best tips about painting from these experts who have.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: And so, I would say I'm self-taught in that, Yeah, I didn't go to fine art school, but along the way I've had some incredible experiences and learned from some great teachers and really, really great artists in beautiful settings as well.

Ron: And that's the based studies in life is those that you make next to a master It's more than one can ask for. So I'm so happy

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: that you did that. So where did that journey start? Like getting off the yacht, realizing I'm going to do art, I've committed to this thing now I can't go study. So where am I going to jump in? What am I going to do?

Craig: So I came back and the Fine Art was not an option which is it was actually only in my mind that I was put off studying fine art. There was no reason why I couldn't enroll. It wasn't discouraged by any institutions. It's

Ron: Okay.

Craig: not some

Ron: Okay.

Craig: sort of it's not a box that you tick. It was just it just really put me off and threw

Ron: Sure.

Craig: me threw my direction off. Which is also interesting that I actually grew up on a property in White River next to Keith Alexander the painter

Ron: Oh, yes. The other artist

Craig: and

Ron: is.

Craig: he was colorblind. And I used to.

Ron: What?

Craig: Yeah, as a child, I would go and hang out in his studio and watch him paint. And he would kind of just give me a little tips. I mean, I was so young, so it wasn't a full on lesson, but I just observed him painting, and interestingly enough, you know, the property, the Bosch's property. But

Ron: Yes.

Craig: when I was growing up, my property was wedged in between Esias Bosch's property. Now, Esra and then another side, Zakkie Eloff

Ron: Yes.

Craig: and then to the right, Keith Alexander So that definitely was an influencing factor, and it's White River's a very creative and artistic

Ron: Absolutely.

Craig: community. So but anyway, despite knowing that Keith Alexander was colorblind, it really did throw me. So then my next best option was filmmaking. It was also something that I wanted to do. Tell stories and write stories and create cinematic moments and, short stories that you put onto screen. So went off to AFDA and enrolled in a screenwriting and directing course. Which was three years, but also within the course we did modules in cinematography and production design and producing. So it was quite a nice three year degree.

Ron: That's

Craig: We really

Ron: lovely.

Craig: was

Ron: I had

Craig: very

Ron: a friend

Craig: hands on.

Ron: who worked at AFDA he was a lecturer. I saw that facility once and it was lovely. As a kid, I would pretend to write scripts and plan plots for films. This was in among dreaming about becoming a field guide and a photographer. At the time, I had no idea what graphic design is that it even existed. So me becoming a graphic designer was totally left field and very natural, and also autodidact didn't study for at all. Which is why I love chatting to you because our paths are so very similar

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: and there are so many touch points and I think we both serve as examples to people who might be listening, thinking, Oh, I didn't study this thing. I can't

Craig: And.

Ron: even imagine becoming this. How would I be any good? I can't compete. That's such a Western construct in

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: people's minds that they have to have certain accolades in order to start achieving in life. And it's so not true. We've achieved wonderful success. Not that I'm putting myself anywhere on your level because you're crazy talented, but what I'm saying, we are living, breathing examples of being the exceptions to a norm.

Craig: Yes, absolutely. I feel like everyone's path is different and there's not one set route to achieve

Ron: Especially

Craig: which

Ron: no.

Craig: will get.

Ron: I mean,

Craig: No.

Ron: coming out of COVID and lockdown and seeing the world from a completely different angle, most people's eyes are sort of open to these constructs that really need to die down a bit. Now,

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: the

Craig: absolutely.

Ron: other one that I quite like and I hope we'll adopt the four day work week I'm like "Come on, guys, the industrial revolution is over. We need

Craig: Exactly

Ron: a four day workweek!"

Craig: as you just.

Ron: But anyway, I've completely digressed. So you started studying at AFDA that was a three year course. And how did that lead to art?

Craig: Well, there's there's more to it. It didn't actually happen quite soon after that.

Ron: Oh.

Craig: So after leaving AFDA I felt like I wanted to get back on to the boats for one more season. It was something that I enjoyed so much. It was hard work, but it was the most amazing way to travel and see the most beautiful parts of the Mediterranean in particular,

Ron: Well.

Craig: which is where I was. So I decided, let's go travel the Mediterranean and make a lot of money while I'm doing it. So I went back and I actually then started working for an Egyptian billionaire who's based in Geneva, and he really just sort of took me under his wing and took me everywhere with him. I was just basically was his friend.

Ron: That's fantastic.

Craig: Yeah. So I would go swimming with him, go to the gym, go have coffees, walk around beautiful cities in

Ron: What

Craig: the

Ron: an amazing

Craig: Mediterranean.

Ron: insight to someone's life.

Craig: Yeah. And he had an Oscar on his desk.

Ron: An

Craig: He

Ron: actual

Craig: was?

Ron: Academy

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: Award.

Craig: An actual Academy Award. He worked in Hollywood in the fifties and sixties and made a lot of money and was friends with Marilyn Monroe and

Ron: You

Craig: Cary

Ron: know.

Craig: Grant and you'd think that that would have been an inspiration to go deeper into the film industry. But it was quite the opposite. He would encourage me every day - he knew I had a film degree, he knew I'd just come from studying, directing, scriptwriting, and every day he would lead me away from going back into that industry. He said, "No, you've got to go study and go get an MBA. Just keep studying. Don't go into the film industry." So yeah, it was not exactly what I wanted to hear,

Ron: No.

Craig: especially coming from someone with an Academy Award on the desk on his yacht.

Ron: Oh, no.

Craig: But, yeah, he's the one who first introduced me to the idea of being aware of your thoughts. Focusing on what it is you want and only thinking about that and yeah, he is living proof of being very focused and achieving what you want. If you if you know what it is that you want and you desire and you have faith. Uh, so eventually, maybe you can call it brainwashing. I don't know. But by the end of the season

Ron: Healthy

Craig: on the yacht

Ron: brainwashing.

Craig: I, I didn't sign up for an MBA because I wasn't quite qualified with my film degree nor old enough to have experience in the corporate world. But what I did do is I signed up for an entrepreneurship course at UCT

Ron: Hmm.

Craig: It's a one year course and it's like I would say likened a very condensed MBA,

Ron: Okay.

Craig: about 12 modules squeezed into one year. And part of the project was that you have to create an actual product. In groups, we came up with a product that's completely novel and new to the market - produce it, market it, sell it, and by the end of the year, you see who's made money, who's not. But you close down that business and that's your real life experience of entrepreneurship.

Ron: That's

Craig: And

Ron: amazing.

Craig: yeah, so I had an idea that I pitched to the group and I said, look; Something that I thought about and was introduced to in a little shop in Naples, in Italy while I was working on the boats, where this man in this beautiful store - clearly it's been in the family for generations because it was wedged between Gucci and Armani and Ferragamo and

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: Prada, all those big name Italian brands. And then there was this tiny little optometrist, and he called me in and he was showing me his wooden spectacles. So then I said to the group, I've got

Ron: Oh,

Craig: this idea.

Ron: my word. You just jogged that memory.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: I completely forgot about this thing you did.

Craig: Yeah. So that came out of nowhere. But I just went with that idea, the group liked the idea and so we developed wooden frame sunglasses and spectacles and it did very well! so well that by the time our course was over, two of us remained in the business and ran with it for a few more years. So that was, quite an exciting time and being in control of all the aspects of the production design, the marketing, the photo campaigns, the copywriting, it was a Great way to learn about,

Ron: That's

Craig: you

Ron: fantastic.

Craig: know, running your own business

Ron: I mean, I

Craig: or.

Ron: often think about how I wish that a lot of this stuff was taught at school. I don't think you can do an entrepreneurship class. I don't think it'll appeal to many the same way. I felt like hotel school and typing was a waste of my time as a child. But I do think that the basic thing people need to understand when you're growing up, at least as an adolescent, getting ready to enter the world, understanding stuff like taxes and just the basic workings of a home run business, those kinds of things, especially in a country like South Africa, are really important. Did you go through this year of entrepreneurship studies thinking, jeez, I wish this was taught at school?

Craig: Definitely, I think vital skills, like accounting and bookkeeping and how to market yourself, and maybe website design. Maybe it was a bit

Ron: Yes

Craig: advanced for when we were at school. But yeah, there's lots of practical things that are missing from your average school curriculum.

Ron: Absolutely. So those studies then led to the establishment - I think I remember correctly these frames were called 'Houdt'? Am I right?

Craig: 'Houdt Couture'

Ron: Houdt couture.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: So clever! For those who don't know the Afrikaans word for wood is 'Hout' So just it lends

Craig: Or.

Ron: itself perfectly to that very clever business name. How long did you run Houdt Couture for?

Craig: I think about four or five years.

Ron: Wow.

Craig: Yeah. So

Ron: That's

Craig: it was.

Ron: a bloody good innings for a new business.

Craig: Yeah, It was a good experience. And by the time I left the company, we were producing. beautiful products like absolutely

Ron: They were stunning. I remember.

Craig: robust and durable, but with the beauty of them being completely made out of wood. And we had perfected the technique and the process - we had amazing Carl Zeiss lenses fitted and beautiful

Ron: You weren't

Craig: that

Ron: kidding around.

Craig: you - no! yeah we went all out and yeah it was a great experience.

Ron: Okay, so now come on, put me out of my misery. What led to art!?

Craig: And then there's one more stop on the way.

Ron: Okay, okay,

Craig: And

Ron: fine. I'll indulge.

Craig: so then I ended the sunglasses business and then started going back into film production.

Ron: Mm

Craig: I

Ron: hmm.

Craig: worked for at the time quite a small sort of startup company, creating hospitality videos, so

Ron: Okay.

Craig: training for, you know, champagne service and housekeeping and whatever department

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: is involved

Ron: Was it.

Craig: and.

Ron: Was it a course called 'Lobster'? By

Craig: Yes.

Ron: any chance?

Craig: That's it. Yeah.

Ron: No way. You're

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: involved in lobster. I studied that!

Craig: Really?

Ron: Yes.

Craig: Yeah, that's exactly what I was doing. And I joined at a time where it was very hands on. And so you might see me in a few of the videos pretending

Ron: That is

Craig: to be

Ron: clear.

Craig: a guest sipping on champagne. So, yeah, so the company is called 'Let's Sell Lobster' and the product is Lobster Inc. I started out as assistant to the head of production and we had some great times there traveling, travelling to beautiful hotels around the world and shooting various courses from, champagne to housekeeping to Chinese traveler standards, specifically for the Chinese market. It was quite fascinating. But the company grew very quickly, and so I moved up quite quickly, which was great. It was all very exciting. But with companies like that, the higher you go up, the more managerial your role becomes, which is not what I enjoy and not my strong point.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: So when that started to feel like it wasn't the right fit for me anymore, I was looking at a new direction, possibly something entrepreneurial. And so my boyfriend, Kyle, he said to me, Well, what is it that you want to do? Like, I can see that you are frustrated and you want to change things up again. So ideally. If you don't have to worry about supporting yourself for a year or two and I took care of that, what would you do?

Ron: Wow.

Craig: that was very, very kind and generous of him. And so I said to him, well, painting and being an artist is something that I was always going to do when I retired. I kind of viewed it as a retirement hobby. But to be honest, if I looked around at the time, there were young artists in Cape Town making a good living and creating beautiful and important art. So I said, I'd like to give that a try. And he was a bit shocked because he said, "But you've never mentioned painting, drawing. I've never seen

Ron: Really?

Craig: you sketch?" And I said, "I know". I think at that time I must have been 28. So I hadn't picked up a paintbrush or spoken about creating art. I was always interested in art around me in the history of art, but it was a bit of a shock for him. But he was like, "Okay, I never heard you mention that, but why don't you make a painting and I'll gauge whether I think you've got what it takes". So I kind of locked myself away in the spare bedroom, covered the floor with newspaper, got myself some oil paints and tried to remember everything I was taught in high school about how to paint and mix skin

Ron: This is

Craig: tones

Ron: so

Craig: and composition

Ron: fascinating. I can't

Craig: and

Ron: believe this is the route you

Craig: know.

Ron: took. It's so interesting.

Craig: So and subsequently I've been chatting to friends. In fact this weekend I was chatting to a friend and it's funny to hear their perspective of this sudden career change. And I think there was a bit of eye rolling going on where

Ron: Yes.

Craig: where people are like, "Oh, Craig wants to be an artist. Okay, cool. Good for

Ron: But

Craig: you". And, like, not holding their breath that I'm going

Ron: it's

Craig: to.

Ron: like, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it just reminded me of a story when J.K. Rowling wrote Harry Potter the first time they got Stephen Fry to narrate the audio book. I don't know if you ever heard this interview. He was called by his agent and the agent said, listen, I know you're quite busy with other projects now, but I've got this kid's book that I want you to narrate for the for the audiobook version. And he said, okay, yeah, sure. I mean, it's a kid's book, can't be very long. And then when he got the thing, he realized it's like an adult novel sized kid's book and he narrated it, went well, loved it, and he met Jo right at the end and he said, "Thanks for trusting me on this project. It was a very lovely book to read. I hope it does very well!" she says.

Craig: And.

Ron: "Well, I hope so, because I've written a second one!" and he said, "Oh, good for you.

Craig: And we'll.

Ron: So they probably had the same sort of

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: sense

Craig: But

Ron: of, oh, my word is another castle in the sky".

Craig: Yeah, slightly dismissive 'Castle in the sky' type thing. So there was a bit of pressure for me. It was a subject that I loved at school. That was my favorite subject. I'd rather be in the classroom than on the sports fields.

Ron: Yes! I

Craig: And,

Ron: used to hide myself in the library. Then even

Craig: you

Ron: on.

Craig: know, so any opportunity I would get, I'd just stick around in the art classroom. And I had a great teacher, Miss Suckling. And so I knew that I had some skills and talents in that department, but it had been ten years. And so I had some pressure and I decided to paint a portrait. And yeah, eventually I presented this small portrait to Kyle, and he was like, "Oh! Wow,

Ron: No.

Craig: yes, there's something there. I'll definitely support you,

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: while you get on your feet." So

Ron: That's very,

Craig: it's

Ron: very special.

Craig: it's

Ron: I mean,

Craig: very

Ron: that

Craig: special

Ron: just

Craig: and.

Ron: speaks

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: volumes about your relationship, and I can't wait to touch upon that also a little

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: bit later and just check in with you on that front. But what was the portrait of, out of interest?

Craig: It was of my friend Mika, who I went to film school with. She had these big, very green eyes, bright eyes. And I asked a friend, Pierre de Villiers, who's a brilliant cinematographer and photographer,

Ron: Mm hmm.

Craig: I asked him to take some photographs of people, people's portraits for me to paint. This was before the time of me honing my own photography skills.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: So at the time Pierre and I would just kind of roam around Woodstock and observatory and just find people to shoot for me, to paint and to photograph Mika in one of the AFDA theaters. And so it was a very dramatic

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: that sort of sunlight streaming in from the side, lighting up the one eye and leaving the other side of the face

Ron: Please tell

Craig: and

Ron: me you

Craig: in

Ron: kept

Craig: darkness.

Ron: this piece?

Craig: I did. And it's in my studio and

Ron: Good.

Craig: I'm not not going to sell it. It's always

Ron: No.

Craig: there as a reminder

Ron: Never,

Craig: that

Ron: ever do.

Craig: that's kind of

Ron: That thing is,

Craig: starting

Ron: is

Craig: point.

Ron: such a valuable thing from an emotional perspective and

Craig: Yes.

Ron: sentimental perspective. That's the definition of 'priceless'.

Craig: Exactly. It was a great start. And it was a good reminder that, I suppose, these things come back to you. You don't lose it. And although my style has changed and it's become a lot looser and more expressive, there is still something very special about that portrait. And yeah, definitely not

Ron: Well, I want to tell

Craig: quite.

Ron: you about another special portrait. It's so funny, the home we live in currently I got a room that must have belonged to a little girl because it's painted a light lilac, lavender shade, and when I opened the cupboards the first time to clear them out before hanging up my clothes, I saw drawings all along the walls and initially when you move into a place like that, you think, Oh, let me just wash this and repaint the walls. But after a while, I sort

Craig: All right.

Ron: of grew accustomed to this lilac shade of the bedroom, and the drawings were so cute that I just - they're still there, like three or four years later - and the one is of a cat and it's drawn in normal, school grade chalk. It's orange and pink. And this cat is not the average cat that you would see a kid

Craig: The.

Ron: draw facing you or standing

Craig: But.

Ron: with its tail at an angle. This cat is sitting down, facing the other direction. So the kid drew this cat from its back perspective, and the tail is sort of also sitting at the most natural possible angle. I thought, gee, this kid, I really hope that she went on and studied art. Then fast track a few years later, I go visit your mom for a cup of coffee and then against a wall is the picture you did as a kid of exactly the same

Craig: But.

Ron: angle. I thought, What are the chances?

Craig: I know. I was just about to say. It sounds like you're describing this

Ron: It's

Craig: painting.

Ron: really. I'll send you a picture.

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: It is identical.

Craig: please do. Because I was just talking about that painting that I painted of my cat when I was, I think, six. And I'd been given a new box of paints for

Ron: You

Craig: my birthday.

Ron: drew that at

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: six!?

Craig: Yeah. And

Ron: Geez!

Craig: I think it's probably my favorite painting that I've done because it was so uninhibited. And

Ron: Yes.

Craig: there's something about being a 6- year old where you're a lot more free and you're not worried about other people's judgments. And so I remember trying to paint Susie our cat and cats will never cooperate when you want them to be

Ron: I

Craig: in photos or. Oh,

Ron: never

Craig: yeah.

Ron: heard.

Craig: So rather than forcing her to face me, I just. She was just facing away from me. So I quickly painted her from behind you know, with the tail coming around. And it had to be done quite quickly before she moved. And that's why I love looking at that painting again and appreciating the freedom that you know, a young child has

Ron: Yes.

Craig: and just doing it quickly, not overthinking it. Not overworking it. It was a fleeting moment. And then she moved on and left the painting as it is. So yeah, my mum's still got that, that

Ron: I'm

Craig: painting

Ron: so glad

Craig: framed.

Ron: you have both these pieces because they both seem quite pivotal. I think

Craig: Yes.

Ron: that's that's a lovely reminder, as you say... I also have a photo. I must have been ten years old, I think. I still had one of those little 'Mik & Druk Kamera's' that you roll film into, and you have to watch the number of photos you've taken before you reach the end of the film in order to not lose a special shot. Then I got close to the end of the film and I said to my sister, while my grandfather was outside spraying the garden with the hose, his thumb over the end of the nose to make a little spray head. And she just gave him a hug from behind and he had like a mouth full of peanuts. And he was laughing, but he couldn't open his mouth to smile fully. And

Craig: Sure.

Ron: so many little moments were caught in that image without trying. And I'd say that image sparked my love of photography, and I still have that image. Thankfully, I never lost it.

Craig: Amazing.

Ron: So I know what you're talking about. It's it's

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: very it's soothing and reaffirming and reassuring to look back on those things and realize, yeah, there's been a lot of bumps, but I feel like I'm still on the right path.

Craig: Exactly. Yeah, I love that. And those nice synchronicities that come with being on the right path where you're constantly reminded that you're doing well and you've chosen the right direction.

Ron: It's the best feeling.

Craig: So.

Ron: So then a question I always ask guests is what made you after all of this and getting getting approved by your 'bankroller'

Craig: Have.

Ron: to do the study of art, what then made you fully and firmly decide to throw all of your weight behind what you're doing now? And what advice do you have for people who are a little afraid of chasing their passion?

Craig: So after Kyle was very impressed with my portrait, he then supported me and just made sure that, you know, I'm not a starving artist. So that's very lucky. And I know that not many people

Ron: Sure.

Craig: are offered that opportunity. Fortunately, there are a lot of art patrons out there who want to help and especially in Cape Town, well, internationally as well, there are art patrons who will support young artists, sometimes give them a monthly allowance or at the very least, just support and buy paintings as they come out. So my situation, maybe it's unique and I'm very fortunate that I had that opportunity. Some people have parents that would do that for them too.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: I also have very supportive parents. But I think I just really threw myself into into it. And I guess I'm also quite lucky. A lot of good things happened to me along the way. And I was offered to put together a mini exhibition, with a German collector, Mike

Ron: Mm

Craig: Kobold

Ron: hmm.

Craig: at this studio slash gallery by Dylan Thomas, who's a great interior decorator. And at the time he had a showroom that was as a gallery space. So I put together a show and this was just kind of going to be my first showcase to my friends.

Ron: How exciting.

Craig: And so it was exciting and

Ron: Nerve

Craig: that

Ron: racking.

Craig: yeah. And they were all very impressed. Um, one friend bought two, another friend bought one

Ron: Oh,

Craig: and

Ron: that's the

Craig: it was,

Ron: best feeling.

Craig: yeah. So I sold all the paintings in that show and that spurred me on to just keep creating and experimenting and learning because I knew that I was lacking a lot of skills. Even the basics that you take for granted if you go to fine art school, like how to clean your brushes and how to hold a palette and use a palette knife and all these little things. So my advice is to. Just wherever you can take courses, learn from people, ask to be their apprentice. Even online courses, YouTube has got so many videos or Instagram.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: TikTok. Udemy Online and Masterclass, I suppose. I haven't watched The Masterclass, but yeah, I never stop learning and I never stop. I

Ron: Absolutely.

Craig: never assume that I know everything. I'll

Ron: No.

Craig: always learn something from. From another artist.

Ron: Have you ever considered starting some form of class?

Craig: I have and a couple of people have requested that I do that -  like small classes. And one thing that I would love to do is go to school just outside of White River.

Ron: Mm hmm.

Craig: My mom was involved in the school, and to go and give lessons to some of the matric and or high school students there who have got so much talent, it's unbelievable. And just need a little bit of guidance and just

Ron: Absolutely.

Craig: a just some reassurance that If you've got talent like they have

Ron: Pursue

Craig: that,

Ron: it.

Craig: yeah. Pursuing a career in arts is viable and it's something that they can consider. It's

Ron: That's

Craig: not.

Ron: actually a project that I've wanted to do for the longest time. And I think people are going to roll their eyes when they hear this, because I've said it to so many people, it's one of those things I keep saying and I never do, but I want to grab a camera and I want to make a coffee table book of all the informal art in the areas around us

Craig: The.

Ron: where people come from impoverished backgrounds and maybe they don't feel confident enough about themselves to strike out and become an artist and earn a living in that way. But you can see from the way in which they've done their shopfront or maybe the walls around their house, or maybe

Craig: The.

Ron: the way that they garden and even the way they do rocks. There's a famous artist between Barberton and Malelane in that Low's Creek area. The rocks that he painted then became the symbol for the town of Barberton and the

Craig: Oh, wow!

Ron: World Heritage Geotrail site. So I know exactly what you're talking about, and it's the most fascinating thing to notice it's so easy to drive through impoverished areas and think of the squalor. But if you look past the it's superficial squalor, actually,

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: because there's so much beauty to notice as well, and community and love and art, that's

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: something I'm still passionate about and I want to do, and I will do it. Now that I've had this conversation with you, I'm going to knuckle down and just do it.

Craig: Yeah, I agree. It's the talent out there and the appreciation for beauty is amazing. So that's that's something that I would like to do. So, yeah, I'm going to

Ron: Do it.

Craig: do

Ron: You.

Craig: it. And

Ron: You have so much passion

Craig: I.

Ron: for what you do and you have so much skill that you've acquired. I think you have a knack for conveying skills that might otherwise be conveyed in a complex way.

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: You will now be able to distill down to its essence, and people will learn from that so much quicker than they would a formal course. That's the benefit

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: of where you're coming from.

Craig: Exactly. And and looking back my very varied path to get to where I am now, I'm grateful for it because every step along the way, I've learned something new, picked up a different skill. And it's a very well-rounded way to get to where I am and experience all different types of aspects of of different careers. And in a way I think had I gone to study at Michaelis, I'd possibly have a head start in my art career but possibly the joy of painting might have been beaten out of me and

Ron: Yes.

Craig: in the intensity of the course. So

Ron: One never knows.

Craig: yeah.

Ron: Absolutely. No, I agree. I'm so excited about the prospect of seeing you come full circle with this dream of painting

Craig: Well.

Ron: in the bush and field guiding. I'm just putting it out there. You could totally do an art course somewhere at a luxury game lodge. And then you're totally achieving that dream. Just saying.

Craig: Well, I mean, I wasn't far off. In fact, it sounds pretty spot on with my boyhood dream last year when I was invited to Lion Sands in the Sabi Sands for six

Ron: Oh, that's

Craig: weeks

Ron: right.

Craig: to. Yeah, I wasn't exactly Field Guiding but I certainly went on quite a few game drives every

Ron: And

Craig: week.

Ron: walks, I would imagine.

Craig: walks, yeah, I got to climb beautiful granite outcrops and just living in the bush for six weeks and I was given the most beautiful, peaceful studio and gallery space. And yeah, everything was taken care of. Food, laundry, accommodation. All I had to do is just walk to work and create in this beautiful environment.

Ron: Avoid leopards on your way to work,

Craig: Exactly

Ron: that kind

Craig: where.

Ron: of thing. It's living the dream. It really is. I mean, somebody listening in the UK or the USA or even somewhere in Asia might have been dreaming of coming to Africa. It's their biggest dream. And listening to a story like this, they are yearning and aching to experience what we take for granted so easily.

Craig: Yeah, absolutely. And although I grew up in that area, it never gets old. The bush is just such a special place. And it doesn't even have to be about the animals and the sightings. It's just the trees and the sounds and the the birds and the sense that the bush has a different scent in the morning as it does in the evening. So it just.

Ron: You're waxing lyrical so quickly. Next question was going to be Where in the world are you most at home? I think it's safe to say the bush

Craig: Yeah, definitely. That's that's

Ron: is

Craig: my

Ron: that

Craig: favorite

Ron: we share

Craig: spot.

Ron: that sentiment! Okay, before we close this loop about your personal life. I do want to dig into the story about you and Kyle. You can go into as much detail as you want. Just paint people a picture of maybe how you guys met and how long you've been together. I saw you uploaded photos recently of a beautiful trip you did to Madagascar, if I'm not mistaken.

Craig: Yes.

Ron: It's so nice to hear. I mean, I think we fall under the category of millennials. I'm not 100% sure, but

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: we are in that generation of really fortunate people that didn't have to fight for recognition as gay men

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: or as queer people. Sure, liberalization still needs to happen on a lot of fronts, especially for trans people. But as gay men, particularly gay white men, we're very fortunate, you and I. And I don't take it for granted for a single day. It's nice for me that you are able to speak so confidently and openly about a relationship with Kyle, and I want you to delve into detail about that just a little, if you don't mind.

Craig: Oh, yeah, of course. You know, I'm very fortunate and I had very supportive parents, so it was never a major issue. Like, I know some people have a much harder time with it and it can damage family ties and that

Ron: Hmm.

Craig: cause a lot of damage and trauma. So I'm very grateful in that regard, even though it was, you know, my own struggle, my own story.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: But so, Kyle and I met the old fashioned way at a nightclub in Cape Town, Crew,

Ron: I remember Crew! Ah!

Craig: Yes.

Ron: I miss that. Now, I was just reminiscing about that the other night. The Times with Friends, there's

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: just fantastic.

Craig: I think they're reopening soon. So

Ron: No.

Craig: that's again.

Ron: I'm coming to visit you.

Craig: Please do. And so I met him... It was a month before I turned 23, so I was only a 22- year old this was in 2010, and actually, I had already planned to go back to work on private yachts. In fact, at that time, it was more than just going to travel a little bit. There was a part of me that wanted to actually emigrate to France. So, I mean, I'd been doing my French lessons every week.

Ron: Wow.

Craig: I had my tickets booked, and I knew that my first step, first foot in the door to just earn a bit of money and be in France was to work on yachts. So that was all planned. And then I met Kyle and was just a bit, you know, between a rock and a hard place. Like, what do I do?

Ron: When the heart speaks, you have

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: to listen.

Craig: So what I did was I did fly to France, and I worked a season on the yachts. And then I came back to Cape Town and decided that I need to come back to Kyle and Cape Town. And, yeah, so it was the right choice - we've been together for 14 years.

Ron: What!? I had no idea its been that long!

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: Well done, boys.

Craig: Thanks.

Ron: That's a couple of lifetimes, actually.

Craig: Definitely.

Ron: And I just read something last night. I'm trying to remember by whom I'm follow so many inspirational people and motivational people. But it was so nice to read about the very clear distinction between love and lust. Sure, it's

Craig: No.

Ron: great to start with lust. I think any relationship does at least romantic relationships, I would hope. The rest are questionable. But to go from that honeymoon phase in any relationship into a phase where you're still devoted to the other person and particularly your individual growth and growing together, and that's what I very clearly see with you guys, at least looking from the outside in, I think both of you are on your own trajectories

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: and you support each other in your growth. And that's a beautiful thing to see in any relationship, not particularly gay relationships.

Craig: Mm. Yeah I agree. We're very fortunate in that we share a lot of common interests like art and we have the same tastes in a lot of things. But we've quite different. So you know, opposites do attract. And someone was telling me something quite interesting the other day how this whole revolution of dating apps like Grindr,  Tinder

Ron: Hmm.

Craig: what we think we're doing is narrowing down what it is we want to see in a partner because

Ron: Oh,

Craig: because we like this. And so we want

Ron: no.

Craig: this person to be like this, this, this, this. But what we're actually doing is eliminating anything that's different from what

Ron: Yes.

Craig: we know.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: So essentially, we're just trying to hone in on people that are just like us. So we're missing that opposition, which is important. I mean, you need someone who introduces differing ideas and opinions and thoughts and challenges

Ron: Absolutely.

Craig: you. So I am grateful that I was just before that whole, dating app generation. I mean, it does have its benefits, and people have found

Ron: Sure.

Craig: love better.

Ron: I mean, yeah, there are pros and cons to anything, but I

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: totally hear where you're coming from because I've reached that point in my life as well, where I'm certainly not holding out hope of meeting anybody on a dating app, because I think it's so easy also coming from a psychological or as a therapy in a psychiatry perspective or angle, it's so easy for you to not be aware of the toxic traits that you're looking for in a partner. You're constantly looking for a mirror to your own unresolved issues. And these dating apps make it so easy for you to find that perfect toxic relationship. Instead of meeting somebody, who can actually bring out the best in you. That's what you're saying?

Craig: Exactly. And it's packaged in a way that's entertainment and

Ron: Yes.

Craig: gives you that dopamine that

Ron: No

Craig: need. So

Ron: dopamine. It's our new best friend and enemy.

Craig: for.

Ron: So, what are you guys doing this year for your anniversary?

Craig: So it just passed recently. Kyle took me out to dinner and we kept it very low key because it was a day or two before Valentine's Day. And on Valentine's Day, there was an open studios at the building where my new studio is.

Ron: Oh.

Craig: And then directly the day after that was the Cape Town Art Fair So it was a big week. So we kept it low key. And I braced myself for basically

Ron: With the madness

Craig: all

Ron: that

Craig: Art

Ron: ensued

Craig: Fair week. Yeah, exactly.

Ron: You'll take a romantic holiday somewhere during the course of the year. I'm sure you made up for it in Madagascar.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: That must have been a nice celebration.

Craig: Madagascar was a great holiday just for the two of us. And unspoilt and wild. Lots of animals. And

Ron: Oh, I'm

Craig: it

Ron: so

Craig: was.

Ron: green with envy like I'm so happy for you but envious at the same

Craig: So.

Ron: time because it is that one destination that I feel like I have to visit as soon as possible.

Craig: Yeah. It's been on my list for a long time, so it did not disappoint.

Ron: Wonderful. I'm happy to hear that it's firmly at the top of my list again, and I'm totally going to do it now that I've had this chat with you.

Craig: Good.

Ron: All right. I think it's time we move over into art. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back.

Craig: Okay. Perfect.

Ron: Where do you find most of your inspiration? Because looking in from the outside, sure, you do various things - I mean, I fell in love with the portrait you did of the Satara skyline in Kruger National

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: Park - but I think what people associate your name with as an artist is the portraiture you did that ended up winning your award. Where would you say initially you got most of your inspiration and what sort of remained as a source of inspiration for your art since that first period of of doing art professionally?

Craig: I think I've always been interested in portraiture and portraying people. And definitely my filmmaking background plays a part not

Ron: Sure.

Craig: only in the way I like to try and tell a bit of a story with what I paint. I like the idea that if a viewer looks at my painting, they get the sense that there might be something off screen or something that's about

Ron: Oh.

Craig: to happen or just has happened. Kind of like a still

Ron: That's

Craig: frame

Ron: exactly

Craig: from a

Ron: the feeling

Craig: piece

Ron: that

Craig: of

Ron: I

Craig: cinema.

Ron: get from looking at your stuff.

Craig: Thanks. So I like the idea of presence without everything necessarily spelt out or with everything being filled in into the frame. I think that the silhouette was actually kind of an accident. I was working on a little body of work of oil on paper portraits. And I asked a friend, Eugene, to to pose for a few of the paintings. And by this point, I had my own camera. So I was taking my own reference photos, which for me now is very important. It's

Ron: And

Craig: very

Ron: considerably

Craig: important for.

Ron: quicker and easier than having someone

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: else to

Craig: Quicker

Ron: do it.

Craig: and easier. You can come up with an idea and execute it yourself, like really control the creative process from start to finish. And the first shot was just a quick test shoot that I sort of. Click the button and took a photo of Eugene and he was backlit and the settings were all way off. So he was silhouetted, the background was blown out and his figure was very dark and poorly lit. Anyway, adjusted my settings and carried on with the shoot. Then when I downloaded them and I was selecting which ones to paint. There was something about that that initial test shot, that almost a mistake shot that appealed to me. Something interesting, something that was. Kind of masking certain elements of his personality, but at the same time, a lot more revealing than than some of the other posed shots. So I painted it. and it actually was quite effective. Unfortunately, when I

Ron: Which.

Craig: was peeling away the masking tape that I use to secure the piece of paper to a board I tore it.

Ron: No.

Craig: So, you know, So I was I was a bit frustrated because, you know, just something a little bit different. But I thought, well, maybe it's too different. Maybe it doesn't fit in with the rest of the exhibition. So that just ended up on a pile in my studio.

Ron: You're joking.

Craig: Yeah. So then what happened was I approached Mark Staines, who is one of the owners of Ebony Curated and I knew him. We weren't very good friends, but we saw each other around at various events and parties and we had lots of mutual friends and I emailed him one day and I know galleries hate to see unsolicited emails from artists, but I didn't email him in the hope of being shown with him I simply just said to him, "Would you be willing to just give me some critiques if I bring you a couple of my paintings?" So he was very happy to do that. And

Ron: Wonderful.

Craig: yeah, so he's he's such an honest man and his is critiques I value them a lot. So what happened was for the next few years, we had this kind of relationship where we where I would bring in works and he would give me honest feedback and critiques. And it was just this back and forth for a couple of years. And then the one day he visited my studio and he had seen something. He saw something on the floor. And it was that painting that had torn years before. And he was like, "Well, that's very interesting. Let me have a look." And I said, I it's it's unusable because it's torn. And then he said, "Well, there's definitely something here and I would like to explore this further. So would you be able to create something similar or use this concept?" So I said, yes, of course, and got to work on recreating that painting, but this time on canvas, not on paper. And I brought it to the studio, to his gallery, and he loved it and he said, "Great, let's include you in a group show." And so I painted two more in the same sort of style, silhouetted backlit figures. And yeah, so that was my first showing with Ebony curated. And

Ron: How

Craig: from there,

Ron: fortuitous

Craig: no.

Ron: that he saw it on the floor.

Craig: Yeah So I owe a lot to ebony curated and to Mark, and. It was nice that there was this understanding that I had no expectations from my side except for just some honest feedback and some help. And he knew that I wasn't trying to hawk my paintings

Ron: Nervous.

Craig: off on him. But more than just critique about the paintings, he gave me a lot of good advice about becoming an artist and little things like with social media. He said to me, "Don't just reveal everything on Instagram, like hold things back. Because one day if a gallery decides to work with you, they want to have a certain amount of control and have a big reveal of artworks that they're displaying. So, you know, don't show everything all at once." That I mean, that's great advice for

Ron: That's

Craig: any artist.

Ron: very interesting. I

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: actually was looking at your feed either last night or this morning with your upcoming exhibition. And I was a typical Instagram stalker where I was flipping through the images, trying to see paintings that I would recognize as yours. And I feel like, is it safe to say that I didn't see any? Or was there one hidden among those on the wall that is yours? That is a style that I might not be used to.

Craig: Oh, yes,  that was at the Cape Town Art Fair. And they were there were two works of mine. It was such a big booth. And they had kind of arranged the different booth wall facades in an interesting way. It was kind of this diagonal, jagged interior wall. So there was a lot of wall space and a lot of nice little areas to put in art and sculptures and ceramics. There were two of mine in that in that series of photographs that I posted yesterday.

Ron: So

Craig: But

Ron: you see, it is well-hidden and that's what

Craig: yeah,

Ron: you're saying. You're piqueing

Craig: it.

Ron: someone's interest enough to actually then go to the exhibition.

Craig: Yes. But the post that I did a few post before that, those feature the works that were on the walls and they are a different direction to what people are used to seeing of my work.

Ron: Even the one that I commented on a post, I looked at it and I saw what I assumed was a self-portrait. And you confirmed it. Is that the first time you've done it? At least for an exhibition?

Craig: Yes, I did do a self-portrait for a show at Youngblood gallery years ago. I was swimming in a pool. So it's actually, it's my Instagram profile shot

Ron: Yes.

Craig: that well, my profile shot is a work in progress of that final painting that's now owned by my friends Mark and Simon Yeah. So I've done self-portraits here and there, but, the one that you saw in my studio, that was part of my open studio display, which was quite nice because it was in my studio. It was a self-portrait. It was all very personal. And the idea was that people would come to this block called Bree Castle House where there are about 20 creators, and they're ranging from photographers to fashion designers, painters and for the entire evening on Valentine's Day, you could just go up and down from the ninth floor down to the first floor, and just pop into people's studios and see how they work.

Ron: Oh, that must be incredible.

Craig: Yeah. So that was a great, a great showcase of the self-portrait.

Ron: I

Craig: How.

Ron: miss that about Cape Town I mean, of course, there's lots to miss. And if you live in Cape Town, you miss a lot about the Lowveld That's just how life is. But I do miss that sort of hands on getting a window on someone's artistic life. There is definitely more of an art circuit and an art scene in Cape Town Theater, etc.. And

Craig: Yes

Ron: I do find that I miss that. So it's nice that you and I'm sure it was a conscious decision as well to surround yourself with those societies.

Craig: It was because previously I worked from a converted storeroom where Kyle and I lived in Tamboerskloof. We moved from that place, so I had to give up that studio, which I was really upset about because it was so beautiful - looked on to Table Mountain

Ron: Oh,

Craig: and

Ron: wow.

Craig: an old stone pine forest. And right outside my studio window, there was a gate that led onto lion's head contour path. So it was really the most special peaceful studio. But what was lacking was a bit of interaction and, and being in the that art community and, It's not even that I was lacking collaboration or

Ron: Sure.

Craig: or anything like that, but just to be around that energy was something that I was missing. So when when I discovered the studio on Bree Street, I grabbed the opportunity to get a studio there because it's right in the central hub of Bree Street, next to galleries and coffee shops and

Ron: Ah

Craig: lots

Ron: that's fantastic.

Craig: of.

Ron: I've definitely not seen it. I just realized it's been so many years since I've visited Cape Town I would love to come and see the space.

Craig: We

Ron: I can't

Craig: are

Ron: wait.

Craig: to

Ron: But

Craig: visit.

Ron: just to sort of quickly circle back to. You mentioned the paintings you did. I remember very clearly at one stage there was a phase that you went through or it was maybe for a particular exhibition where scenes in water were also something you did frequently.

Craig: Yes, so I definitely went through a water phase and was fascinated by how water refracts light and changes how a body looks in the water. I think that's probably what drew me to it. The way the water. Yeah, it changes how we view a figure.

Ron: It makes sense because you're from a photography background and your eye immediately picks up on the ways in which water would warp a subject

Craig: Get

Ron: that

Craig: this.

Ron: your eye is completely accustomed to. Your what's it called? Oh, there's such a lovely term for that part of your brain which which immediately recognizes something. That part of the brain is so stimulated by what you know, that when you see something from an angle that you're not used to, it fascinates the brain.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. There's something adds an element of interest to a  painting. And then I did kind of the opposite of that as well, where I painted some underwater scenes and that's when I started to blur my paintings because I wanted to give that feeling that when you're swimming underwater and you open your eyes,

Ron: Yes.

Craig: you can see, but it's all completely out of focus. So that's where that came in for the first time. Painting my friends Kate and Kyle under water Shame. I made them get into a pool in the middle of winter

Ron: Okay.

Craig: and.

Ron: Making them do cold plunges before it was a thing.

Craig: Exactly. And I wasn't even in the water. We found a pool at a nice new apartment block in Bantry Bay, where

Ron: Oh, that's a.

Craig: there was a glass wall that looked on to the street. So we walked past and we managed to get the security guard to let us into the complex's

Ron: That's so funny.

Craig: swimming pool while I was on the other side, nice and dry and warm,

Ron: Hahahaha!

Craig: photographing through the glass. But you'll see that that idea of out-of-focus blurriness shows up in a lot of my work following that. But that's that's where it originated from the idea of opening your eyes underwater. Everything's.

Ron: That's fascinating because that blurry effect. You've also translated to recent works, which I'd love to get to,

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: but I sort of just want to get a gauge of timeline,

Craig: The.

Ron: on the calendar. Which year was it that you were bankrolled

Craig: And.

Ron: by Kyle, for lack of a better term? And that led up to what I want to get to now in 2019. What what kind of period are we looking at?

Craig: So I started out officially as an artist or at the time a wannabe artist in 2015.

Ron: Oh, wow. So

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: it all happened in four years.

Craig: Yeah!

Ron: That's ridiculous. I'm so impressed and so happy for you. Okay, so now what I want to touch on is something that you mentioned to me just before we started chatting this morning that I wasn't even aware of is the Billy Monk nightclub from the late sixties. And how you then became is is the term archivist. What is

Craig: Yes.

Ron: it that you do?

Craig: Yeah. So I'm the archivist. So, Kyle for years had been explaining to me about this photographer. And I think at the time he was talking about it being set in Johannesburg, this nightclub photography from the 1960s. He couldn't think of the name, but they were just these fascinating, gritty, intriguing photographs of wild nightlife in South Africa and then, actually, funnily enough, it was Mark Steyns from Ebony who said

Ron: Oh.

Craig: that you're talking about Billy Monk. And you'll find some of the prints at Gallery F on Short Market Street, owned by Gavin Furlonger So we went to go see these prints, and it was fascinating. And it was actually they were photographed in Cape Town. And so Kyle and I bought two prints. Kyle's a collector. He likes to collect coins, and he's interested in the history of things. And he's got a nice collection of antique maps. And so he asks, you know, "I bought the prints, can I buy the negatives?" And it's quite a strange request to to

Ron: Sure.

Craig: buy the negatives from an archive. But Gavin consulted with Billy Monk's children, and they were like, okay, yeah, they can buy the negative as well. So then Kyle said, "Is there anything else in the archive that's beyond these 47 images that we see?" And so Gavin said, yes. And then he was like, "Well. Maybe we should look into taking over this collection and and releasing more images from this archive?"

Ron: What?

Craig: And so Gavin was like, "Uhm, I don't think that Billy Monks heirs are going to go for that, but I'll bring it up with them" And then, yeah, they actually thought it wouldn't be the worst idea to have someone come on board and, and put some energy and effort and love into this collection of photographs. So, yeah. That's how we came about owning the copyright to Billy Monk's archive. So

Ron: That's

Craig: between.

Ron: incredible. I

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: mean, to go from not even knowing that you're going to enter the world of art to then becoming an archivist for I have not even seen this stuff and I can't wait to look at it.

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: Just

Craig: it's.

Ron: describe paint a picture for people listening of who Billy Monk was and what kind of photography he did.

Craig: So Billy Monk was what I would describe as a likable rogue. He was just like he was a bit of a thug, but he was also quite a gentleman. He was good looking, a bit of a jack of all trades. He was a crayfish poacher in the sixties. He was involved in a heist at the OK bazaars in

Ron: What?

Craig: Jo'burg, and he spent a bit of time in prison. He was quite a hit with the ladies apparently with men as well. And he then found his way to becoming a bouncer at a sailor bar in Cape Town in 1967. And the kind of patrons passing through these places in the foreshore, which is now a very flashy business district with coffee

Ron: Sure.

Craig: shops and the Portside building. In the sixties, it was properly, you know, the Docklands. It was the foreshore, so there were Japanese trawler men. American sailors, British sailors, prostitutes. Drug dealers.

Ron: Kind of what the Times Square was before it became Times Square.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. And these sailor bars, like the catacombs and the spurs and Balalaika, they became these little bubbles of safety for people on the outskirts of society. So at the time, obviously in Cape Town, in South Africa, many things were illegal from the basics, like the sale of liquor to more serious laws that were passed, segregating races and banning homosexuality. It was a time of oppression. But during this time, these little bars provided a place for people to come and just party and have fun and forget the fact that there were these crazy laws. So it attracted just this broad spectrum of society. And there was a little community of transgender women who frequented the clubs, prostitutes, jazz bands including black musicians. And, international musicians coming to join them. And then also sort of high society, constant

Ron: Yes. That intersection.

Craig: attention. And

Ron: Yeah.

Craig: yeah, so it was really an intersection of all worlds in Cape Town, and Billy Monk photographed these.

Ron: Wow.

Craig: He apparently bought a Pentax camera from one of the Japanese trawler men that passed through, and he started photographing inside the nightclub. But he clearly did it in a way that was respectful and he was part of the scene. So no one felt that he was intruding or trying to take pictures that that

Ron: Yes.

Craig: they would regret.

Ron: Almost journalistic

Craig: It was

Ron: style picture.

Craig: journalistic and in-your-face. It was just photographs of people having a good time and forgetting about what's going on outside in the world. And as with many

Ron: I

Craig: poor.

Ron: it. We need a space like that. Now, why don't you just open a Billy Monk nightclub today?

Craig: I know! Definitely need something like that. And I think with a lot of port cities around the world, what happens in the port a lot of the times you know, people turn a blind eye to it because the communities that pass through are very transient and they move from one place to the next very quickly. So I think that that was partly why these places were overlooked, because whatever was happening in there was temporary. And occasionally there were raids. Police would come and check and see what illegal things were going on. And that's why you'll see a lot of the photographs Coca-Cola bottles everywhere because people at these clubs didn't serve beer and wine because they needed something that could be, you know, quickly swiped away if there was a police raid. So that's why they would drink brandy and coke. And that's just about it. So,

Ron: It's fascinating.

Craig: you know, supplements,

Ron: Interesting stuff

Craig: photos

Ron: like that

Craig: were

Ron: on

Craig: just,

Ron: film.

Craig: yeah, just the really raw, gritty, bizarre. And he had such an eye, like he could spot a moment, a scene and take a snapshot of it, because what he was actually doing was making money You know, the whole Thunder.com thing that we used to have when we were in university and high school. He was essentially that he was like the nightclub photographer. He would take photographs of friends having a good time. I don't know, a group of sailors together. He would take the photograph, go home at night, print them in his darkroom, come back the following night and sell the photos back to the sailors and the patrons as souvenirs.

Ron: What an industrious guy.

Craig: Yeah. So he was making money by selling these images. But very clearly, you can see that some of them are the happy snaps for souvenirs. And then there are others that are in a different league where they're artistic and they're really capturing a scene or a moment. And something really quite interesting comes out.

Ron: Those are my favorite types of photographs.

Craig: Yeah, exactly. So it's sort of these candid photos of people just looking quite carefree and enjoying themselves a lot. And so, yeah, I took over the archive but that's when my art actually did take a bit of a backseat. For a couple of years, Gavin and I were curating a new show that we launched at the Investec Cape Town Art Fair in 2019. So 25 unpublished works from the archive, beautiful images of, again, these, these nightclub scenes. And at the same time, I was directing a documentary on Billy Monk's life.

Ron: Oh.

Craig: So, yeah, it was a fascinating time where I got to dust off my filmmaking skills. And along with Pierre de Villiers, who I mentioned earlier, this very

Ron: Yes.

Craig: talented cinematographer, we shot interviews with 15 people that were closely related to Billy Monk's story, ranging from David Monk, his son since passed away sadly to Paul Gordon, who he lived with in the Bo-Kaap, and taught him a lot about photography. We had Lynne Samson, a journalist who wrote this amazing article about this whole story called Now You've Gone and Killed Me. The photographers Jacques de Villiers and David Goldblatt and art critic Ashraf Jamal. It was just a fascinating

Ron: Incredible.

Craig: journey, I went on, because just to recap Billy's story which is fascinating in itself, is that so he was this this nightclub photographer. He knew that he was talented at what he did and he wanted to be a famous photographer one day. It's just that what his photos depicted would never be shown on any gallery wall.

Ron: At

Craig: Certainly

Ron: that time. Yes.

Craig: not. It wouldn't even be an option because everything that was illegal in the country at the time was there

Ron: I was

Craig: in

Ron: in the part

Craig: every single photo.

Ron: I.

Craig: So anyway,

Ron: That's sort of a

Craig: he.

Ron: nice middle finger to society. I like

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: it.

Craig: But he always knew that he would be famous and people would remember his photographs anyway. When. When the. When containerization happened in the shipping industry, and you no longer required a dozen sailors to you know, unload and load ships and spend two weeks in a port. You have one stevedore in a crane removing containers. And so the whole dockside scene dried up and obviously the nightclubs closed down. So then Billy Monk went and did the next odd job. He went and became a skipper on a diamond diving boat in Port Nolloth. And so that's what he did for the years.

Ron: That's incredible.

Craig: After the nightclubs closed down after 1969. Then he had left his box of negatives from these nightclub scenes in a in a box with Paul Gordon He worked in an old church that became his studio. Then the photographer, Jacques de Villiers, took over that church. And at the time, he was dating Lynne Sampson. And they discovered this box of negatives and they were having a look and they were like, "Wow, these are quite something!" And then, yeah, David Goldblatt got on board, and Andrew Meintjies, another photographer. And an exhibition was staged at the Market Theater Gallery in Johannesburg with Billy Monk's blessing. And so finally, he was going to have his moment to just be that photographer that he had always dreamt of being. And now this is 1982.

Ron: Mm

Craig: And

Ron: hmm.

Craig: so Billy Monk gets to Cape Town to then catch a lift up to Jo'burg and on that night that he's in Cape Town, he gets involved in a bar fight and he gets shot and killed.

Ron: You're joking.

Craig: Yeah. So it's just this terrible kind of Greek tragedy style story where.

Ron: Oh, my word.

Craig: Moments before seeing his exhibition up on the walls, he dies. Yeah,

Ron: You

Craig: so

Ron: can't

Craig: it's.

Ron: make this stuff up.

Craig: No! It's like a script. So.

Ron: Well, I feel like you're going to be making a movie at some point. I don't think a documentary  is sufficient! That's

Craig: Everything's

Ron: that's

Craig: okay.

Ron: incredible. So that then segues into I'm assuming this was around the start of 2019 or flowing into the start of 2019? Because you mentioned to me that by the time you got back into art a little bit more full time after establishing the Billy Monk archival works that you did not expect to achieve anything successful in terms of doing art in 2019. And yet, surprise, surprise, what goes and happens. Just tell me a bit about how that transpired.

Craig: Yes. The Billy Monk Archive and the Billy Monk documentary definitely took up all my time and I was engrossed in it. It was fascinating. And I was really putting all my energy into that. But I knew that there was a deadline for submissions for the Sanlam Portrait Awards, which, the previous year I missed the deadline and because it's run every two years. Two years before that, I had submitted a painting that was not selected. So it had been a goal of mine to make it into the top 50 of the Sanlam Portrait Awards And time was running out. The deadline was approaching. So I created two paintings. And I think it probably goes back to that idea that we were talking about earlier, creating things without too much expectation

Ron: Yes.

Craig: and not overthinking the process. So I submitted two paintings and I was then told that I've been invited to the the gala evening because one of my paintings is in the top 50 and the other one was in the top 100! So I showed up on the evening and. I mean, I'd been doing a lot of visualizing about the night and.

Craig: coming in top five was definitely a goal of mine that I had written down years before. I didn't think

Ron: You

Craig: much

Ron: write

Craig: of it.

Ron: it down.

Craig: Yes. Yeah. So that's.

Ron: These things fascinate me to know, and I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: It's just always worthwhile telling somebody, like affirming the behaviour

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: Did you know that Jim Carrey wrote down when he was at his lowest point, long before he became a well-known actor He was broke as all heck. And he wrote himself a check

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: from a production company as though he was being paid for his role in a movie. And he wrote the check for $1,000,000. And then a few years later, I think it was either for the mask or for Ace Ventura. He got $1,000,000 for

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: that role. Isn't

Craig: That's

Ron: that

Craig: amazing.

Ron: it? Same.

Craig: Yeah. I firmly believe in writing things down. Have your goals and write them down. Something about writing it down solidifies it. It keeps it at the top of your mind. And I honestly believe that the subconscious rules the world, and we're

Ron: Yes.

Craig: making so many decisions in our day that we're not aware of, they're subliminal, subconscious, and they're leading us towards our ultimate goal and if we know what our higher goals are and we've written them down, then it's leading us towards those. If you don't write it down or you have a vague idea, then you're generally going to possibly get swept up into just the norm or someone else's dream or.

Ron: Absolutely. Yeah.

Craig: So yeah, that was important to me and it was a goal of mine. And I think that when you detach expectation or you detach the end result, that also helps. Which happened for me naturally, because I didn't really have time. I painted the paintings, submitted them and just put them out there, like moved on to the next thing. Getting my documentary finalized. so then when I was invited to the gala that evening because I was in the top 50 and with another one in the top 100,

Ron: How incredible.

Craig: Yeah, it was, it was quite an amazing experience and.

Ron: So

Craig: Well.

Ron: wait, out of interest. What are the two paintings you submitted? Just give me a vague idea.

Craig: So the one was in the style of of like an old masters, kind of a Caravaggio esque portrait. What I wanted to do was have this old fashioned looking, old master style portrait, but with a

Ron: Yes.

Craig: subject that kind of went against the grain. So I had my

Ron: Oh,

Craig: friend

Ron: yes.

Craig: Kyle wearing a very contemporary green velvet blazer, and he had this very sort of severe haircut with a fade. And he was wearing some earrings, a stud with an ace of spades. So I called the painting 'Ace of Spades' So it's kind of like I love the idea of things appearing a certain way at first glance and then looking closer and looking at the details, you realize it's

Ron: Yeah. Those are fascinating.

Craig: not what you think. So I wanted that painting to give the impression of an old master. And then you walk in closer and you see it's all these small details that are very, very contemporary. So that was the one that made it to the top 100. And then the other one was my friend, Lesala It's called 'Lesala in Silhouette'. I'd done a photoshoot with him and I'd been sitting on these beautiful reference images for a while, and it was quite an unusual stance. It was sort of with his hands behind his back. He's got an amazing body and he's sort of looking directly at the viewer. And I made it very silhouetted and contrasted so you can just make out details and features and just a little hint of light hitting certain parts of his body and.

Ron: It sort of

Craig: Yep.

Ron: hearkens back to that that first one you did with a piece that you considered a throwaway photo

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: and becoming your finest work from that photoshoot

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: is this kind of similar did you want to go for that approach?

Craig: Yes. I was definitely leaning into that silhouette motif. And then this time I added an ombre sort of faded background going from sky blue down to white. I wanted the effect of it being sort of like this indistinguishable location,

Ron: Yes.

Craig: sort of sky horizon. And the effect was quite beautiful and contrasting. And the blue has a certain calming effect on the viewer in a painting. And then there's this typical, It's sort of like this classical pose, It's masculine, but it's got feminine aspects to it as well. So. Yeah. And then that portrait ended up winning

Ron: Oh, my word, insert

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: applause track because

Craig: it's.

Ron: that's the most incredible feeling, like you say, coming out of one project and almost half heartedly entering for another. Not thinking too much about it and knowing

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: that you didn't have all the energy and the fuel that you needed and you'd entered before and things weren't accepted. So

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: to just be considered in the first place must have been incredibly exciting. But how did you feel when you were announced the winner?

Craig: Uhm, it was just - you're sort of stunned - silence. And I had a whole lot of friends and my mom and my dad and Kyle with me so I had the biggest group of cheerleaders around me

Ron: Wow.

Craig: who were screaming my name and going absolutely wild. It was just quite a surreal moment and. sort of matching my dream and what I've been visualizing about the evening. So

Ron: Incredible.

Craig: it was strange in a way. Yeah.

Ron: And it must have been surreal from that point onwards. Did you make the mistake that a lot of artists make and then apply this pressure of expectation on yourself? Or did you see it as a wonderful punctuation and just keep doing your thing from there onwards?

Craig: It was a nice validation of, you know, that there's something there that I can continue working, especially because I've taken a bit of a backseat with my art career. I put my art career on hold, getting my documentary finished. So it was it was a nice validation to just say, yes, let's, let's continue. I'm on the right path. And that also opened other doors where I was then invited by Ebony Curated to do an entire solo exhibition. And what was interesting about that was they gave me this slot in the calendar for December 2020. And so

Ron: That

Craig: I got to

Ron: year,

Craig: work.

Ron: that

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: We shall not mention!

Craig: exactly. So we went into hard lockdown and it's kind of saved me because I had luckily my studio was on the property that Kyle and I lived and I had this sort of saving grace of being able to walk to my studio during hard lockdown and get to work on my solo exhibition. So I was very, very lucky. It

Ron: Oh,

Craig: gave

Ron: that's

Craig: me something

Ron: fantastic.

Craig: to do, gave me a purpose, kept me busy, kept me entertained

Ron: Did

Craig: and

Ron: you

Craig: engaged.

Ron: find that lockdown and COVID influenced that art, unexpectedly?

Craig: It did. And what I love about art and what I allow art to do for me is really kind of tap into my subconscious and what I'm going through. And sometimes I don't even realize what I'm putting into a canvas until afterwards. And so the show really started to take shape and when I look back at the body of work I did six large canvases, very similar to the one that won the Sanlam Portrait Awards, six silhouetted backlit figures, most of them looking out into the Void.

Ron: I remember that so clearly. Those are the ones that stick for me in memory. Like

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: if I had to put one image next to your name as an artist, it would be one of those.

Craig: So looking at it now, it's like these people are looking out and it kind of mirrored the idea of being in lockdown and looking out into the world because that's all we could do.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: We couldn't engage. We're just longingly staring out our windows. And so there's definitely that nice little poetic tie in. I named the series Nowhere Better to Be because I was reading a book called Less than Zero by I think it's Bret Easton Ellis. And there was just this one line which I loved where, It's just these these rich, spoiled Hollywood kids. They were doing these terrible things because "there's nowhere better to be." And I sort of cut that phrase out of context and called my show Nowhere Better to Be. It's this play on the phrase where. You wouldn't want to be anywhere else because this is special. But on the other hand, there is nowhere else to be. You can't you can't be anywhere else. So titles and the names of paintings are very important for me. And so kind

Ron: It

Craig: of given.

Ron: adds a whole level of value that people don't appreciate, I

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: think.

Craig: it sometimes can enhance the viewer's experience or maybe flip it on their head like they think the painting's about something. And then the title gives them a little clue as to maybe what I was thinking, or maybe sending them in a different direction to

Ron: Yes.

Craig: to what it was intended so that show was quite well received and was sold out. And that was that was the beginning of my

Ron: Wow.

Craig: more formal relationship with Ebony Curators as my gallery.

Ron: So all of this happened within the space of a year. It's incredible. We spoke about it earlier, how you go through your life, dreaming of of achieving certain things and hoping you would even get anywhere close to achieving them. And suddenly life just puts them all on your path, sort of

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: almost at once. And you would you stumble from one end to the other. It's amazing to hear that, that it happens to more than one person and you took it in your stride so beautifully.

Craig: Yeah. Thank

Ron: So at what

Craig: you.

Ron: point did the residencies come about?

Craig: So I've always had the desire to go off to a different country or a different city and experience what it's like to be a citizen, even if only temporarily, of a different place.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: And so I had made submissions to a couple of places in France and Tokyo. And again, lockdown didn't help matters. A lot of these residency programs, let's suppose all of them had to suspend their programs. And then I was actually offered a residency spot in Berlin by someone who had previously wanted to buy one of my paintings from my solo show, Nowhere Better to be, but they were all sold out, so credit to my gallery, Ebony Curated, they said to this collector, "There's nothing available. But when something comes available of Craig's, we will let you know." And so two years later, something popped up and he bought something. And then this collector, extended an offer to me to be an artist in residence in Berlin. So that's what I did in the European summer of 2022

Ron: How

Craig: spent

Ron: incredible.

Craig: ten weeks living and working in Berlin, which was amazing.

Ron: That is such a cool story.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: And then just most recently, would you also call it a residency? What was your stint at Lion Sands about?

Craig: So that was I mean, all residences have their way of running and their intentions. Some are very collaborative. Some are merely a studio space. Some involve some sort of brief. So it really is up to the residency, what they choose to

Ron: Okay.

Craig: give to the artist. The Lion Sands one is that I would really call a gift to artists. The Mores from the More Family Collection who own Lion Sands and Cape Cadogan and a few other places, I think Marataba... they introduced this residency program which like I said, it's like this gift to artists to say, "Come stay on our beautiful property. We will take care of all the things in life that get in the way of creating art." So they take care of laundry and accommodation and food and

Ron: That

Craig: you

Ron: is such

Craig: just come

Ron: a generous

Craig: and

Ron: gift.

Craig: you just come and paint in our beautiful studio, which is right on the on the Sabi River. I think

Ron: Oh,

Craig: so.

Ron: magic.

Craig: Yeah. So that's what I did for six weeks - just created work and interacted with guests, went on game drives, walks - and then all that they required in return was that the Mores get to choose one of my paintings for their collection. So that's why I say it's a pretty fair deal

Ron: That's. You know,

Craig: in

Ron: that is

Craig: the

Ron: wonderful.

Craig: artist's favor.

Ron: I saw some of the pictures you did there. And it just reminded me again that at one point I've got to commission you for something of Kruger. I'll still decide what it is, but I've seen you do images in Kruger, and from the way in which you do them, it's so apparent that you love the bush as much as anyone possibly could. It's almost as though you can smell the bush. When I look at your

Craig: Oh wow!

Ron: paintings, it's that sense of place. When you're in the Lowveld, in Kruger, or anywhere similar to that in terms of African savannah,

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: there's a feeling and a smell and a sense of place that you cannot describe to people unless they've been there. And you managed to capture that in a painting, which is difficult enough with a photograph, but to do that with a painting - wow,  I take my hat off to you.

Craig: Well, thank you, then that's a huge compliment. And I agree there's something about stepping off a direct flight from Cape Town to the Lowveld which where you get off the plane and you immediately feel the air is different and there's like something in the air - a sense -  it's a very special place. And living in the bush was such a unique experience because growing up in White River so close to the Kruger Park, I've been in and out of the Kruger Park and Sabi Sands for my whole life, but never for such an extended period of time. And

Ron: Wow.

Craig: like I was saying about with Berlin as well, there's such a difference between being a passing through tourists

Ron: Yes it's.

Craig: and spending a week and thinking you've seen the sights and ticked off lists and gone to coffee shops and whatever. It's different to feel that you're a resident, if even only temporarily. So being in Berlin and feeling like a Berliner, Even though it was probably far from it

Ron: Know

Craig: being

Ron: you

Craig: in

Ron: close enough.

Craig: concerns,

Ron: It's why.

Craig: yeah, I just it was was an amazing experience.

Ron: To me it was mind blowing when I did a bit of a res- not that you can call it a residency, but it's similar in concept - staying in the bush to do field guiding practical studies and just becoming acutely aware of the sounds at night is already

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: a different world and determining from the sounds that you heard a few minutes ago whether it's safe to go out your door and walk to the main house for coffee, whether you need to be worried about a predator between you and your cup of coffee, you know, it's this

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: incredible, completely different awareness that you very quickly develop. It's almost primal.

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: It goes back to a part of our brains that is still left unaltered. After a few thousand years of of developing this modern

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: lifestyle, it's still very much the still very much active. I think that's why there's so much anxiety in the world.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: We have these inaccurately perceived threats, which

Craig: The.

Ron: no longer are predators in the African savannah

Craig: No.

Ron: for the next project deadline looming. But you become so aware of that in the bush and I think you found that at Lion Sands too?

Craig: Yeah, exactly. There is this heightened level of continuous stress that, you know, like you said, the primal reason would be, okay, well, there's a fear of the lion. Let's spike up the cortisol and let's get the adrenaline going. And now we have a painting deadline or something's bothering us. And, you know, it was quite interesting to be in the bush, and those primal fears are actually now valid. And one of my favorite parts of being at Lion Sands was when I would work late in the studio and it was dark and there was only a small patch of dirt road to walk from the studio to my room, which is fine during the day, but at night you needed to be escorted by

Ron: Yes.

Craig: one of the porters. So it was actually my favorite thing to walk up the steps lit by lanterns, but hundreds of lanterns get into a landrover and get driven on the back of the Landrover to go to the other side, which is

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: really like only 300 meters. But

Ron: Yeah, I know. But, I mean, 300

Craig: yeah,

Ron: meters could mean

Craig: it's

Ron: life and death.

Craig: yeah, there's often encounters with not just lions, but I mean elephants and hippos and so.

Ron: Those are those are the ones that you should

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: be wary

Craig: Those are

Ron: of

Craig: the.

Ron: actually are the hippos in the buffalos.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: And even sometimes we were warned in Thornybush about the the... now I need to remember because there's a difference when you referred to a male antelope based on their shoulder height and Nyala. Funny enough, is the point at which it goes over from the one to the other. So it's not a ram its a bull. And was really did you know this I might

Craig: No.

Ron: be boring you information you already know. So at a certain shoulder height you refer to a female and a male antelope as either a ram and an ewe or a bull and a cow.

Craig: Oh.

Ron: And it happens in the Nyala species. But the shoulder height between the male Nyala and the female Nyala is so disparate

Craig: But.

Ron: that a female Nyala is an ewe and the male Nala is a bull,

Craig: It.

Ron: which goes completely against the grain for the rest of the species

Craig: So it's like a

Ron: anyway.

Craig: mismatched

Ron: Completely

Craig: naming

Ron: coming back.

Craig: pair.

Ron: I mean, even a Nyala bull, if he's in a really bad mood and you're close enough for him to take it out on you, those horns can do some serious damage.

Craig: Yeah. Those horns. I've seen some impressive sets of Kudu horns and Nyala horns in Lion Sands Actually, there was resident family of Nyala and Bushbuck that would walk outside my studio and eat the green grass outside there and it was actually beautiful to watch them because the female Bushbuck with the tiniest little hooves when they step onto the wooden deck, the way they step is just the most perfect, dainty, neat little footsteps that

Ron: Yes.

Craig: barely make a tap.

Ron: Yes. And

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: it's funny that you mention those three species in one because they're all from the same family.

Craig: Oh really!

Ron: Don't ask me to pronounce the name because I'll probably pronounce it in Afrikaans. And anybody who speaks Latin will be like, "Ron! No, you butchered that word!" but they're all from the same spiral horn antelope family and they've got stripes down their sides and some of them have a bit of spots. And the other distinguishing fact is the fact that the females and the males look so different. Most

Craig: Yes.

Ron: female antelopes don't have horns the way the males do - in this family that's definitely the case. But then coming out of Lion Sands let's look at 2024 and we're only in February now, so there's still a whole lot a year ahead of us. What are you looking forward to this year?

Craig: So what just happened earlier this month was the Investec Cape Town Art Fair which It's the biggest week in an art in South Africa And it's four days of just thousands of visitors and top collectors, galleries, museums coming to have a look at all these amazing booths at the Cape Town Convention Center. So I was part of Ebony Curated Booth

Ron: Lovely.

Craig: and it went very well and I sold well and it was well received. And what was nice about the work that I presented, it was a culmination of everything that I've been working on since last year's Cape Town Art Fair. So this past year has been quite a year of growth for me. And I was forced to really branch out into a new direction and introduce new elements and techniques and aspects to my painting practice. Partly because of time pressure. I was asked to participate in a lot of things last year, but that really forced me to grow. And also the Lion Sans residency. It brought in an element of the bushveld and landscape

Ron: Yeah. I would

Craig: and

Ron: imagine that influenced

Craig: and

Ron: your work.

Craig: and atmosphere. So the end result was a kind of nice blend of everything that I've gone through and, and the residency. So it's nice to see how those influences and again, the subconscious is such an important thing

Ron: Yes.

Craig: to feed and art is such a visual representation of what is going on in an artist's mind. And you put it out into the world and onto a canvas and take a step back. And even for myself to look back and

Ron: Do

Craig: identify.

Ron: you agree with a sentiment I recently heard - It so resonated with me and I'm not an artist in terms of the visual arts the way you are - well, I guess to a degree, but that's not what I'm referring to. Someone said that with visual arts, specifically the classic fine arts, the way the way you practice them.

Craig: Oh.

Ron: The trick is. A successful artist does art for themselves. Because if you're

Craig: He.

Ron: doing it for other people, you are not distilling your own subconscious. You are not putting onto a canvas that which actually sparks love

Craig: Yes.

Ron: and passion and interest and enthusement in other people. Other people come to your art because they want to experience a part of you.

Craig: Yes.

Ron: And I found that to be so resonant and so true. And when I looked at my reasons for doing a podcast, it sort of came down to the same thing. As much as I want people to benefit from listening to this, I certainly value the time people give me by listening to these interviews. But I do them for me. I do them because they speak to a part of me, something that I've recently seen in myself or discovered about myself or remembered about myself. And this conversation between you and I today is such a prime example of that, where we have so many dovetails, so many shared passions and, you know

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: interests in life. And it's lovely to then take that and distill it into a form that pleases you, because if it pleases you, it's more likely to please other people. Do you find that to be true with your visual arts as well?

Craig: Definitely. I think that there's a desire and need to paint something and sometimes you can't always explain it. But if it sparks curiosity and interest in you and then its something intuitive, a gut feeling that you want to paint something and you execute it and you do it authentically, it will resonate with your audience or certainly the audience that you're trying to reach

Ron: Absolutely.

Craig: and trying to pander to tastes, trends, what other artists are doing... It could be superficially effective, but it's not going to be a long term answer

Ron: No.

Craig: and your work won't shine through as as authentic. So

Ron: No, no,

Craig: that's.

Ron: it won't. It's so interesting to see that. And I'm always happy to hear that someone like you would echo that sentiment.

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: It it's like when you started out and you spent time with masters and you picked up on skills. This is one of the skills someone has to pick up on. If they're going into any of the divergent arts,

Craig: Yeah, exactly.

Ron: you've got to do it for yourself because that's the passion that sustains you. If

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: you're doing it for other people or you're trying to appease a new novel interest in life or a fad, it's going to die out really quickly.

Craig: Yeah, absolutely. And actually, I did a solo show with Ebony curated last year. And what I wanted to do was just create a body of work that. speaks to me. And for whatever reason, I wanted to create this image or that image. Try this and that, like different subjects and styles without thinking too much about it. Allowing intuition and subconscious to shine through. Let that bubble up. And I made sure that I didn't think. "Okay, well, I've painted this is this going to fit in with the rest of the series?" I just almost trusted the process, created this body of work. And what I found was that it started to become quite, almost religious. So it's almost like looking at religious iconography and the colors that we typically see in religious paintings and artworks.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: And and it was very much went in that direction. And so I called the show 'Divine' because it really was Just allowing my intuition to create something and hope that it comes together as a cohesive body of work. And in the end, it was very well received and. I was very pleased with how it turned out. And it was. It was good to know that. You don't have to always intellectualize your art. You don't have to give.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: If you've got an exhibition coming up, maybe you have certain parameters of wall space, but I think what was great for me was it was a bit of a breakthrough for me because I no longer thought to myself, okay, well, we'd have six of this size and six of that size and work within those boundaries. This was just like what felt right. I did it and I sort of broke through that, that

Ron: It's a less

Craig: structure.

Ron: rigid style

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: of thinking.

Craig: The structure

Ron: Yeah.

Craig: of the structure is a lot more and allowed the paintings just kind of work through me.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: you know, it's just something that you hear about from other artists,

Ron: Yea.

Craig: musicians,

Ron: Yea.

Craig: songwriters.

Ron: Yea.

Craig: And now I finally

Ron: Yea.

Craig: understand what it means

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: to just allow creativity to flow through you. And just when an idea pops up execute it, do it like as quickly as you can. Because if not that, then that idea will move along to the next mind who is receptive to it, and they'll execute it. So. So that was what's nice about the 'Divine', series as well, is that because they were a lot quicker and I was going to kind of coloring outside the lines, dropping the structures. I could use my intuition to come up with an idea execute it quickly and see the results a lot more immediately, and therefore have a more immediate effect on the viewer.

Ron: Listen, I keep saying this, but I mean it in the most sincere way possible. I take my hat off to you as a fellow creative that you came to this understanding of yourself not only as an artist, but as a person. It takes a certain type of makeup in a human being to be able to achieve those things. So you

Craig: Thank you!

Ron: deserve those moments where you just stand back and say, That's cool, I did this. Like I've achieved

Craig: Mr..

Ron: this. You deserve to feel that way. Well done!

Craig: Thanks, Ron.

Ron: We're going to take a quick break and then come back with some wrap up questions.

Craig: Perfect.

Ron: Back from a break. And now I'd love to know what it is that you've got planned for this year. I know that you've spoken about the Cape Town Art Fair and that went down a treat. So what can people look forward to for the rest of the year? What plans have you got going?

Craig: Well with my gallery Ebony curated we're still looking at the horizon and the art fairs and exhibitions coming up. So I'm sure an interesting group exhibition or Art Fair is going to pop up maybe in Johannesburg later this year, but what's definitely on the calendar and booked is a solo exhibition at Rust & Vrede in Durbanville, confirmed to open on the 10th of August and closing on the 14th of September, so that's very exciting. I've got a long standing relationship with Rust & Vrede even before the Sanlam Portrait Awards. I really get along with Donovan, the curator, and I love his ideas and his input.

Ron: Fantastic.

Craig: So yeah, it's what they're looking for. And what I was hoping to do after having done a lot of large work recently, is they like these small little gem paintings that I did for a solo show I did there in 2021, which was very well received and it was sold out show. And it just was it was very special and meaningful to me. The show was called Give Me Space. It was right after the hard lockdown in South Africa and the lockdown rules started to ease up a little bit.

Ron: Oh, my goodness.

Craig: And

Ron: Can you remember those days?

Craig: I know it's just a different time. I mean.

Ron: I still remember. Who was the comedian? Schalk Bezuidenhout did a little Instagram short. You remember seeing that?

Craig: No.

Ron: He sat in his chair and he said, "Okay, Cyril where's our speech? Like, how were we supposed to find out that Lockdown's

Craig: Yeah!

Ron: lifted nothing? No parties, no streamers, no big announcement. Just poof!

Craig: Just.

Ron: No more lockdown!?"

Craig: Just go back in to attempted normality. Yeah, it was it was a strange time. It was like this twilight zone. But again, as what my solo show did for me during the hard lockdown, it was my catharsis and my escape to paint during The Hard Lockdown, this show, Give Me Space, was my response to that and this final breathing space that the easing up of the laws gave me and how it translated to my art. So it was special and meaningful. How it began was I took a road trip with my friend Kyle a different Kyle, not

Ron: I was

Craig: my

Ron: just

Craig: boyfriend.

Ron: going to say it is not boyfriend.

Craig: So this is Kyle Blake. We went from Cape Town to White River and back

Ron: Oh.

Craig: stopping at small towns along the way.

Ron: What route did you take?

Craig: So we started Cape Town, went through to Barrydale Uh,

Ron: Oh, my uncle lives in Barrydale Oh, what a beautiful little spot.

Craig: yeah, a very cute little town. We just stayed there for lunch. There was a bit of urgency in the road trip and a bit of careful planning to do route planning because there were still curfews. I think you couldn't be out past 8:30PM or something ridiculous. So we had to make sure that we could achieve a certain stretch.

Ron: Okay.

Craig: But our first night we were very spoiled by my boyfriend, Kyle. So Kyle spoiled Kyle and I to a night at the Drostdy hotel.

Ron: Oh, lovely.

Craig: And then Kyle and I, the other Kyle and I spoiled ourselves to a night at Samarra private game reserve the night after. And

Ron: Wow.

Craig: just bear in mind, this is South African tourism kind of coming out of dormancy and.

Ron: That's Virgin tourism

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: at its peak.

Craig: Getting people through the door for the first time. So offering seriously discounted rates at all these beautiful lodges and resorts and B&Bs. So yeah, that was our first stop and then up through to the Midlands, to Nottingham Road to visit Kyle's parents and then up to White River, where I actually set up a little studio for six weeks and painted there. Then we did stop via Balule game Reserve to visit my friend Rewald at his

Ron: I

Craig: game

Ron: was

Craig: farm

Ron: just going to say, how can you come all this way and not go to the bush?

Craig: Yeah. That was a definite must. So a couple of nights at Nambu camp and it was just special. I knew in my mind I wanted to create some sort of visual journal of this trip. So I was looking at the road trip through the lens of an artist and what scenes interested me. And there was a lot of stopping along the road which did cause a bit of stress at the end of the day with me racing towards a goal or deadline before curfew. But what was also quite special about this exhibition at Rust & Vrede is that I painted most, if not all, of the paintings on antique book pages from books that are falling apart that we found in antique book shops or

Ron: Oh, wow.

Craig: antique shops all along the way, and also the linen covers of the books. I mean, the favored material to paint on is linen. And here are these perfect little book covers in them.

Ron: Like

Craig: And

Ron: it was begging to be painted

Craig: yeah,

Ron: on.

Craig: so that was kind of like the obvious choice. And I did look for books that were literally falling apart. I don't know, there was something wrong about painting over or destroying a book. So I tried to take ones that are falling apart and viewed it as adding to the object.

Ron: Yes.

Craig: So the result was a show of roughly 20 little paintings depicting classic roadside scenes like the shell garage in between a cactus garden in

Ron: Oh,

Craig: the Karoo

Ron: wow.

Craig: and Karoo landscapes, thunderstorms approaching, a few portraits of Kyle and little moon scapes. And

Ron: Ah! The moon

Craig: this

Ron: is so beautiful.

Craig: year

Ron: in the Karoo!

Craig: Yeah! We were lucky enough to be there for the full moon, so it was quite special. And, yeah, just. Just a little visual journal of the trip. And like I said, it was very well received and was meaningful to me. A bit like people peering into your diary. But I guess

Ron: Yes.

Craig: that's what artists do. They kind of put themselves out there and.

Ron: Absolutely.

Craig: And if it resonates with just one person, that's great. You connected.

Craig: So that all worked out really nicely. And I enjoyed the small scale. So I'm looking forward to not repeating that, but taking cues from that exhibition at Rust & Vrede and Donovan, the curator's encouraging that same sort of gem like small scale paintings, quicker expressive and more intimate,

Ron: You remind me of something now, and it struck me -  possibly I knew before I saw it. But seeing it for the first time, you're struck by how small the paintings of the Masters really

Craig: Then.

Ron: are. Like, for instance, I didn't know how small the Mona Lisa is, and most people probably have the same shock when they see it for the first time. But I'm referring to the same artist, but a different piece. I was lucky enough in Washington DC in 2009 to see The Only DaVinci in the USA.

Craig: Oh, wow.

Ron: And I promise you it is no bigger than these pieces that you are talking about. It could fit onto the front of one of these little linen novels,

Craig: Amazing.

Ron: and they don't put it - It's not like the Mona Lisa, where it's behind a sheet of glass - I could have touched it if I wanted to, but

Craig: So.

Ron: obviously one is more respectful than that. You could stand right in front of it and take in the most minute detail.

Craig: Wow. That's

Ron: And

Craig: a

Ron: to

Craig: really

Ron: see

Craig: special.

Ron: something that small with so much detail, I can only imagine what you're going to do

Craig: Yeah, the small scale definitely has a certain charm and it really invites a viewer to step in and look into a world. I was given advice once that scale is so important and in some places a large scale is needed because you want the viewer to be wrapped up in your world and feel like they're stepping into a scene. If it's small, you invite the viewer to look in and peer into a world and slightly detached, but still inviting closer inspection. And yeah, my large silhouette portraits, my aim was to create a like-for-like scale. So the figures are life size.

Ron: Oh.

Craig: And yeah, I wanted I didn't actually tell it to people, but I wanted it to come through even if subliminally, that this painting, this figure has a presence and maybe you can't quite put your finger on it. But when you're looking at this figure, it's life size. So it could be someone standing right in front of you. That was my

Ron: That's very

Craig: my

Ron: spatial.

Craig: hidden intent for that series. And now with these smaller ones, it's very much like a little private visual diary entry and.

Ron: That's lovely,

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: the thought of that, because that's kind of what a book is to

Craig: No.

Ron: most people. It's a world to escape into and make your own.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: Because I could read a book and you read the same book and we'll paint two completely different pictures in our mind's eye.

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: And that's what you're doing by painting on the exterior of this book. That's such a beautiful metaphor.

Craig: And even reading the same book twice a few years apart, you come with new perspectives and suddenly the meaning takes on a new

Ron: Yes.

Craig: direction.

Ron: Totally new shape I love that about books and I love that about art, even photography. I think all the arts to a degree, even music, if you think

Craig: When?

Ron: about it, you love a song when you were a teenager, but you never listen to the words.

Craig: This.

Ron: And when something happens in your life that strikes a certain chord, When you listen to the song again, it turns the song on its head.

Craig: Yeah, I had that last year. It was a song that I was playing on repeat, and to me it was upbeat and the lyrics were positive. And then I was going through a bit of a hard time leading up to my solo show, and I listened to the song again, and I was like, Oh no, that's what the lyrics mean.

Ron: Oh,

Craig: It's

Ron: no.

Craig: actually quite somber, but I guess you bring into it what you're feeling and your own

Ron: Yes.

Craig: perspective. And that is what's so great about art and music, is that the viewer is invited to

Ron: Yes.

Craig: to be

Ron: It's

Craig: part

Ron: subject

Craig: of it.

Ron: of.

Craig: Yeah, absolutely. And I noticed that very clearly at the Cape Town Art Fair this year, where I painted a scene of it was a friend of mine's bedroom with beautifully lit, like flowing sort of diaphanous curtains, the wind blowing and sun streaming through the curtains onto the floor,

Ron: Beautiful.

Craig: creating shadows. And I painted that scene. There's no people involved, no figures in the painting, just the corner of the bed and the curtains lit by this morning sun. And it was very interesting to hear different people's interpretations

Ron: Oh,

Craig: of that

Ron: I

Craig: scene.

Ron: can imagine.

Craig: Yeah. Everyone brings their own,

Ron: Yes.

Craig: own ideas. Imagination, romance.

Ron: Especially those still life sort of abstract paintings that don't have an obvious meaning if it's even just a visual study for you,

Craig: Yes.

Ron: if at the time you had no reason to paint it other than the flow of light. People bring their own stories,

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: and I think it would be so fascinating if you even did a book about one painting and you just did a chronicle of people's impressions of the painting.

Craig: Yes. That would be fascinating! It's like short stories of the same scene. I actually just

Ron: Oh, my

Craig: just

Ron: word

Craig: bought a

Ron: would

Craig: book.

Ron: onto something. You've got to make that book.

Craig: Well, I actually was considering including some form of writing for my next show, at Rust & Vrede to accompany certain paintings not to explain away the painting itself,

Ron: No.

Craig: but maybe to give context to the scene and what came before and after, and why its important to me. So that's in the back of my mind.

Ron: No, no, that's

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: a very good idea, because gone are the days of being able to purchase someone's music in the form of an album and then being able to throw yourself back on the bed and read through the booklet

Craig: Yes.

Ron: to learn more about the artist and the songs. You know, you can't do that anymore unless you go onto their website or their social media and hopefully they've chronicled that stuff. So you almost want to do that with these paintings, these these little gems, as you call them, where the story that precedes it and goes after it adds to the artwork.

Craig: Yeah, definitely. Like you said the fold-out booklet in the CD that just

Ron: Oh,

Craig: gives

Ron: I miss

Craig: you a

Ron: those.

Craig: little bit more.

Ron: I used to buy it just for that.

Craig: I know and read the lyrics and I see the band photos.

Ron: That's so funny! Geez! The things that have come and gone just in these few decades.

Ron: Okay, so you touched upon a rough patch you went through and how a song took on a whole new meaning. This podcast has a golden thread of mental health that runs through it. And I want to pose this question to you to sort of dovetail with that topic, and maybe you can speak about that period, or speak to us about what you feel is maybe a regret in your career, something that you did or didn't do and that you hope others can learn from. And if you want to speak specifically about that rough patch, how did that teach you to approach life and art and difficulties?

Craig: I think what I was going through there was just pushing myself too hard. And not respecting the fact that painting is not only physically demanding, It's quite emotionally and mentally draining. You really put a lot onto the canvas,

Ron: Yes.

Craig: really putting yourself out there. So I think I was just struggling with pushing myself too hard and not allowing my body to rest and too many late nights in the studio. It was all worth it in the end. You create something that you're proud of and that is meaningful to you and resonates with other people as well, which is always helpful.

Ron: Sure.

Craig: But learning from that. I just need to pace myself and be mindful of, what a task it is to put together a body of work. But I do a lot of things to keep on top of mental health. I meditate 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the afternoon. Like I said earlier, I write things down or write lists of goals and write things in a journal every day and read up about these topics. I listen to podcasts in my studio and. Yeah. I do things like yoga and keep active. So all these things to. try and curb the future.

Ron: Yes. I mean, it's imminent. Always

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: the threat of having a bit of a mental slump

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: or

Craig: exactly.

Ron: a little bit of a breakdown. And I've seen with my journey the past year, even if applying, you know, the best of intentions, sleeping enough and getting exercise and supplements and eating right and all the good things. That doesn't preclude you from having an off day. I just had one this past weekend and posted about it on social media because I think it's so important for people to understand that it's natural. And I'm trying to remember who the psychologist was that said, it's Nicole LePera People follow her on social media quite a bit. She's written two or three books. She's a lovely lady to follow and she speaks about the cocooning stage

Craig: Uh, yes.

Ron: and how it manifests in ways that you don't expect and you almost feel like there's something wrong with you for going into a cocooning phase. But you will see that it's marked by being excited about not having plans of going out or

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: preferring to sit and read a book or being excited about getting into your room and onto your bed instead of wanting to go out with friends. And it's such a natural thing for the body and the brain to go through. We forget that our bodies have seasons as well where they have

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: to renew and process things. So it's wonderful to hear that you in a very natural and dedicated way,

Craig: And.

Ron: give your body the space and time that it needs to work through things

Craig: Yeah, definitely. I also read that and I read it in the time that I was going through that natural cocooning phase where I thought I was just like burnt out and being a complete introvert. And then I read that and I was like, Oh, this is this is what I'm going through. And it's normal to have spent all your extroversion and you've put yourself out there, and now you can relax, rest. Don't feel guilty to be a little bit socially cut off and just replenish yourself. And then you can get back to creating art or doing what you need to do.

Ron: Yeah. And people chastise themselves

Craig: Uh.

Ron: for - I mean, I do before I understood why my body and my brain does that, I chastised myself thinking, "Why!? You've got so much going for you in your life and there's so

Craig: No.

Ron: much happening out in the world. Why would you want to isolate yourself? You grew up an isolated kid. Why do you want to be an isolated adult?" But the fact of the matter is, it really is as though the body goes through seasons and it's not tied to the physical seasons. I think it maybe spans a couple of years. Yeah, the

Craig: For.

Ron: I think there's a lot of truth in Chinese astrology in the sense that they are these I think it's seven year phases. I don't know. I need to look into it again. It was very interesting to read and it kind of resonated where your body very naturally goes through a very productive phase and then a cocooning phase and then sort of ebbs and flows between the two.

Craig: Yeah. And being an introvert, I think this career works so nicely for me in a day to day, week to week kind of structure, because I'll do my thing in my studio, be alone and just love it recharge by myself and enjoy my own company. The weekend comes, I'm ready to face the world and be an extrovert and be social. And then the cycle repeats itself. It's just that when these intense deadlines pop up added with, you know, a lot of socializing and interacting with collectors and galleries and answering questions about your work, which is really a part that I love as well. But then it does sort of catch up with you. So it's good to be aware of it so that you can brace yourself.

Ron: That's it. That's it. You just need to be aware of it so that you don't feel like a complete failure

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: in being a social person.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: Because I never understood the difference between an introvert and an extrovert, aside from whether you like people or not like

Craig: The.

Ron: people. I had it wrong and I think a lot of people do. Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't like the company of people. I learned

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: it's the fact that you can be a lover of people and a lover of social gatherings and parties and family life. But when it comes to the point where your battery's running low, you need to recharge on your own, whereas an extrovert has to recharge in the company of people.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: Their batteries run low when they've been on their own for too long. You and I, I think it's very safe to say that we are both extroverted introverts.

Craig: Yes.

Ron: I love people and I love people's stories, and I love spending time with loved ones. But as soon as my battery starts draining, there's nothing like solitude.

Craig: Right? Yeah, I agree. Just recharge in your own company.

Ron: Absolutely simplicity

Craig: So.

Ron: and makes me think of that meme, where the guy's shouting at the top of his lungs. "Introverts unite! Separately, in your own homes!" So we've covered a lot of ground. And I always end the conversation off by asking, is there anything that we haven't covered which you hoped we would talk about, anything that's interesting. Maybe something coming up that you wanted to mention.

Craig: There was something you mentioned when we were talking earlier, candidly what you said about when you paint without intellectualizing too much and

Ron: Yes.

Craig: you create something and it's maybe not exactly how you would have portrayed it, but so what happened was. For my solo exhibition last year, time was running out and I had a deadline approaching and I started a painting which was the first full moon of 2023. It was so bright and it was shining through

Ron: Wow.

Craig: these oak trees, casting mine and my friend's shadow against his wine cellar. He's got this Cape Dutch home with a wine cellar.

Ron: Lovely.

Craig: And so I was painting that scene. And time is running out. And then my friend, who's a videographer, came to the studio to do some interviews and filmed some scenes. So I kind of had to stop what I was doing with that painting and put it down temporarily, then got back to work and realized, I'm running out of time, so I just had to leave it as is. And so it went up on the wall in a state where I wasn't 100% happy with it. I would have worked it more It would have involved a few more layers but anyway as it always goes. That painting particularly resonated with people and the online platform. Artsy picked it up as a choice to be featured on a digital billboard across every city in the US.

Ron: No

Craig: So

Ron: way.

Craig: yeah, so like for the month of October that painting was basically a public art installation on digital billboards. So it just goes to show that, if it's authentic and you're not intellectualizing it too much. It will most likely resonate with people and come across as something authentic and interesting.

Ron: That is

Craig: Yeah,

Ron: the coolest

Craig: sure.

Ron: story. It's unstifled art,

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: actually.

Craig: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

Ron: And then people pick up on that.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: That's what I mentioned when we spoke about it,

Craig: Yes.

Ron: is that there's definitely something subconscious. It's on a level that we can't intellectualize when we look at art. Listen to a piece of music if it's something that's unadulterated and unstifled when it was created. That's the thing that resonates most. It's usually

Craig: The.

Ron: the most simple art. It's usually the simplest song, the one that you didn't think should make the album or the one that shouldn't be in an exhibition or the one that you're not even going to publish. But let's put it online anyway. And look what happens.

Craig: Exactly. Yeah, it's it's the authenticity shines through in the viewer. The listener picks up on

Ron: It's reassuring,

Craig: more.

Ron: isn't it? It's nice to know that those things still happen. You don't have to pour in heart and soul and blood, sweat and tears into every piece.

Craig: Yeah. Just make it authentic and from the heart. And it all sounds cheesy when you say that, but when.

Ron: No,

Craig: When

Ron: no, no.

Craig: it's.

Ron: The cheesiest things in life

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: ring true. And yeah, it's hakuna matata in terms of art. Final question my friend - I ask this of everyone - What can people do right now in this very second, on this very day to make the world a better place?

Craig: I think. Try and be mindful and present, and move away, wherever possible, from allowing your ego and mind to rule your world and make your decisions for you. It's easier said than done, but just to bring yourself back to the present at all times. Um. That's helpful for me. And. That's where I get all my best ideas is in moments of quieting down my mind. Like I said, it's not easy. And I meditate and I do all these things to help me with that. That's still still a struggle every day. But yeah, I would say

Ron: Absolutely.

Craig: being

Ron: I

Craig: present.

Ron: listen to a couple who present yoga classes - I'll mention them because they've already agreed to be guests, which is a lovely thing to look forward to -  Breathe & Flow Yoga - they are so down to earth. They grew up with yoga in their lives. So they come from that angle where

Craig: The.

Ron: they can relay something in the most relatable terms. And they said about meditation. The worst thing you can do is to think that meditation is about not thinking,

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: because that's the thing that you will do constantly if you're trying to avoid it. The brain is designed to do that. But

Craig: Yes.

Ron: with meditation, what you're trying to do is just observe and just

Craig: The.

Ron: quiet down thoughts and critique in your mind. And as you say, coming from the perspective of ego and trying to rationalize things

Craig: The.

Ron: or berate yourself for something you did during the course of the day or certain stress about something that's still coming up, just realizing that this very breath you have right now is the only thing you actually have,

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: because in 2 minutes you could have a heart attack and die.

Craig: Exactly.

Ron: It's about just realizing that life is in this very moment. And if you quiet down enough, maybe your heart rate will go down a bit. Maybe you'll produce less cortisol. Maybe

Craig: That's.

Ron: you'll feel better when you need to take on the next project. And that's the lovely thing about meditation. So I know that there are a lot of people who hear us speak about meditation morning and evening and they say, Oh please, how 'airy-fairy' But

Craig: And.

Ron: there's such a physiological benefit from doing that kind of activity meditation, yoga, exercise, gym, whatever form it takes of just focusing your attention for a while on something that's good for you instead of stressful,

Craig: Hmm.

Ron: it has an amazing effect on the rest of your life.

Craig: Definitely since I've been doing my meditations twice daily for the last two, two and a half years, it's definitely changed how I handle stress and how I approach my art even. It's just made me a lot more of a grounded, settled person. Uh, removed a lot of anxiety. So, yeah, I highly recommend looking into meditation as well. And there's a famous saying "If you've got the time. Meditate for 20 minutes a day. If you're really busy and you have no time. Meditate for an hour a day." Which.

Ron: I love? Yes. The same applies for going into nature.

Craig: Yeah.

Ron: They say, you know, if you don't have time to go into nature, make sure you go for an hour. It's fantastic what that does. Even just walking. I mean, like you say, we're so fortunate to live in South Africa and here in the Lowveld in this particular suburb where I live, literally around the corner is a nature reserve and you can escape into nature. And I think wherever people are listening from, we have to remember that nature is all around us. If you just drive a little bit out of the city and

Craig: No.

Ron: go sit on a hill for an afternoon and just breathe and calm down and not allow the stresses of life and work to overtake your mental faculties and your physical wellbeing. The recovery is quite extraordinary.

Craig: Yeah. It's amazing. The healing power of nature and even the colors, the color green, it apparently leaves and grass are green because they absorb the most radiation, I think.

Ron: Yeah.

Craig: So, yeah, you're out to nature and you are literally, kind of being immersed in this living environment that's protecting itself and, you know, feeding into you. And it's calming. And so it's.

Ron: So that'll be our T-shirt from this show. "Your 'chill-pill' is go sit on a hill." Oh, listen, my friend, thank you so much for all the time you gave today for chatting to me about everything from your personal life to art to dreams to fears, to mental health and the ups and downs of life. I enjoyed this conversation so thoroughly, and I can't wait to see the successes that you achieve this year and keep track of them. We'll certainly chat again in future and sort of pick up where we left off and have a talk about what transpired in the meantime. But until then, I wish you only the best.

Craig: Thanks, Ron. It was great chatting to you.

Ron: Been awesome. You take care, my buddy.

Craig: Thank

Ron: Lots

Craig: you!

Ron: of love.

Craig: Bye!