Liam Lazore on Embracing Authenticity, Transgender Advocacy, the Intersection of Sports and Gender Identity, and Lighting the Path to Inclusivity!

On this episode I’m joined by Liam Lazore, and I could not be more excited about this conversation!

Liam is an out-and-proud transgender man who faced a pivotal decision as a college basketball player: to embrace his truth or conform to expectations. Opting for authenticity, Liam publicly transitioned, becoming a beacon of resilience and advocacy. Through his journey, Liam navigates the complexities of gender dysphoria, challenges gender norms in sports, and advocates for affirming support systems for trans individuals.

Join us as he shares his story of self-discovery, resilience, and empowerment, inspiring others to embrace their authentic selves.

Follow Liam on Instagram @LiamLazore, and his TikTok handle is @LiamLaz23. Want to train with Liam? Book a coaching programme! https://alextilincacoaching.com

INSTAGRAM & FACEBOOK @castandthecurious

www.curiouscast.co.za
shoutout@curiouscast.co.za

Transcript

Ron: On this episode, I'm joined by Liam Lazore and I could not be more excited about this conversation. Liam is an out and proud transgender man who faced a pivotal decision as a college basketball player; to embrace his truth or conform to expectations. Opting for authenticity. Liam publicly transitioned, becoming a beacon of resilience and advocacy. Through his journey, Liam navigates the complexities of gender dysphoria, challenges, gender norms in sports, and advocates for affirming support systems for trans individuals. Join us as he shares his story of self-discovery, resilience and empowerment, inspiring others to embrace their authentic selves. Liam, welcome, my friend. How you doing today?

Ron: What are you up to? What's stuff looking like on that side of the globe?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. It's going on, man. I'm over in New York. I finally got home, just recently had my bottom surgery, as many know, back in February. So it just feels great to be like, back in my own space and just being able to recover comfortably.

Ron: That's fantastic. I tracked what you were getting up to during the surgery. This was quite a big one. I mean, you've had pretty major surgeries. But from what we all could see on social media and your YouTube video, it was pretty tough, not just physically, but mentally as well.

Liam Lazore: Yeah, I would say mentally it was a lot more challenging. There's just no way to prepare for something like that. Truthfully, I felt like I got hit by a truck if I'm being honest and

Ron: Wow.

Liam Lazore: I honestly just feel like I've kind of like blacked out in regards to what I experienced in the hospital. It was just pretty tough and frustrating. I'm kind of like very independent as a person and like always on the go. So it was just very tough for me to like literally not be able to do anything on my own for the first couple weeks.

Ron: Yeah, of course. Everyone who follows you sees that you are super independent and you're a go getter and you want to be in the gym every day. And you want to run and you just want to do your own things! I'm pretty independent, too. I know how frustrating it is when you can't do stuff for yourself. Even just like not having your own car for a day is frustrating. So I can only imagine what it felt like having to be fed and washed and all the things. But you know what? I'm really happy that you have family in your life that are there for you. Your mom's been as a superstar, a champ, as far as I could tell. What I normally start with is looking back at someone's childhood, but it's obvious for anybody who's transitioning or is transgender, childhood's sort of a gray area. So instead of starting there, I'd rather start by focusing on the here and the now, and I want to hear from you about everything in your life that makes you happy, that makes you well up with tears, the things that make life worthwhile exactly as it is now; tell me about that. Give me a picture of what that looks like.

Liam Lazore: Well, honestly, my childhood, I'd like to say I love like everything about my past and I'm pretty confident with everything I went through and stuff. But right now, the people that keep me going is literally my family, my brother Mike and all my close friends. I really cherish all my friendships and relationships that I have in my life. And they're the ones who actually are kind of like the building blocks of the individual I am today are the ones who kind of like push me and motivate me to be who I am. And I just really wouldn't be where I'm at today without them. So if if I didn't have them in my life, man, I truly don't know if I would be as open and as confident as just like the trans guy that I am today and just

Ron: Yeah,

Liam Lazore: be sure

Ron: sure.

Liam Lazore: to share my story with others. So I honestly always say I owe a lot to my college friends, especially when I transitioned. That was probably like the hardest part for me. But just like the friendships that I have, I cherish all the relationships and I hold them closely.

Ron: And they got you through. I mean, it's it's fantastic that you have that in your life. I'm so happy for that. And I always say that to all the friends I have that are in the LGBTQIA+ community, if you have the support of family and friends, you're a pretty wealthy person because there are so many who don't have it

Liam Lazore: Yeah,

Ron: And

Liam Lazore: exactly.

Ron: and that picture is pretty grim for those in that position. And I wish that I was there for more of them. But you know what? We do what we can. So I've got a tonne of questions, but I'm trying to not ask all of them. We'll just pick up the really good ones. And I think during the flow of our conversation, we'll figure out what areas we want to touch on. But seeing as you've mentioned it and it's a safe space, I know from reading up and looking at your YouTube and your Instagram feed, that childhood was a good time for you. Family is a good time for you. Tell me about childhood. What do you remember dreaming of becoming when you were a kid and what did family life look like?

Liam Lazore: Childhood was a time I love my childhood. My family were very close. I went to Catholic school, actually. I grew up in the

Ron: Wow.

Liam Lazore: church right off the bat for a couple of years until that closed down. I moved over to public school. But childhood, I just like focused on sports really. I got into sports heavily because of my father. I was kind of like my my daddy's little girl. Which is weird to say right now, but it's.

Ron: Of course.

Liam Lazore: We were tight. We're best friends. We're still very close. But I got into sports just like the active lifestyle. And I was very close to my brother as we grew up. When I transitioned over into public school, I kind of just like started hanging out with more of the guys and everything. And all I ever dreamed about was just being one of the guys I always picked up, like their mannerisms. I always hung out with them. I just surrounded myself with them. And I knew at a very early age that I was attracted to girls. I just kind of suppressed those feelings, just thought I would kind of get over that. And

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: obviously, as I got older through high school, I did like play with the terminology of being a lesbian, but obviously we all don't need labels and stuff. I just really was never comfortable with that and

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I always just felt I was straight, but I was a girl who liked girls, so realistically that didn't add up. And until like I actually came across YouTube, the beautiful side of YouTube, and just found out about what transgender really meant. And that's that's when everything clicked for me, truthfully.

Ron: That's so cool to hear, and I think that's important for people listening. I'm going to imagine that at least one person listening is genuinely curious, doesn't understand anything about the transgender community where people come from. So thank you for already laying it out. You made it so obvious to understand,

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: that you were a little girl, but you knew that for some reason the body you were born into doesn't fit. You didn't fit, you didn't feel like you fit. And

Liam Lazore: And.

Ron: during growing up, there was an opportunity for you to identify who you were. And the moment you came across the term 'transgender' and you listened to other transgender persons' stories, it clicked. It was like a light bulb moment for you. Is that correct?

Liam Lazore: Exactly, yeah!

Ron: See, that's really special. And and it talks about the power of social media and about the right types of friends and the support of family for you to be able to explore yourself in that way. I mean, coming from a Catholic background, that must already have been quite a challenge.

Liam Lazore: Mm

Ron: And

Liam Lazore: hmm.

Ron: I mean, people who are in the church and really religious to this day suppress themselves just for being gay, never mind being transgender. So

Liam Lazore: You know.

Ron: I feel it's really important for me as part of the LGBT community and the family to speak up for my trans brothers and sisters, because even I didn't understand your struggles until quite recently. And that's why it was so important for me to chat to you and listen to your story and get it out there. And I want to do as many of these conversations as I can

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: so that people understand and realize that, you know what? It's not that big a deal. It's pretty complicated for the person who's going through it. Like it's much harder for the person who's trans than it is for you to accept them as trans, you

Liam Lazore: Yes,

Ron: know

Liam Lazore: Exactly! I always say that it's really not a big deal that I am trans. It obviously doesn't define who I am as a person and all of my friends are able to realize that and just accept me for who I am and get to know me on a deeper level because being trans is just a part of me. It really doesn't define the actual individual that I am and what I have to offer to the world.

Ron: Exactly. And from what I've seen, I want to give you kudos. You have so much to offer; You're a fitness fanatic. You help people on their fitness journeys of losing weight, gaining muscle, of discovering who they are. No matter you, no matter what gender, no matter what sexual orientation, you accept all types of clients and you motivate them. That's already such a big service to society. And then you do all this advocacy work through your social media for transgenderism. That's fantastic. So well done.

Liam Lazore: Appreciate that. Thank you.

Ron: Alright, so You said you identified, I'm guessing as a teenager that you're transgender, and I read that it was during basketball in college that you had to make that pivotal decision that you're going to transition. Is that right?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. So in high school, I was 18 years old when I found out what transgender meant when I clicked with it. But I battled for a good year, I'd say, in regards to accepting myself as transgender. So it did take a little bit for me to do that and then be able to actually come out and share that about myself. And then I waited

Ron: Sure.

Liam Lazore: until college. I wanted to play one more year basketball for my grandfather and my dad, and then after that, I had to decide if I really wanted to like go through with this and put myself first or just like keep battling with what I was battling with. It was a very hard decision to kind of let go of something that I grew up with. Basketball was my life, and I kind of just had to part ways with it eventually and just really put myself and my own happiness first

Ron: That's huge. And I mean, that's one of the questions that we'll probably touch on again later in the conversation, but it's worth talking about it now;

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: there's so much, I think, especially in the US for all of us from other countries looking from the outside in, it seems that there's this insane pressure on the transgender community and they are so many people opposed to transgender sports- men and women. How does that look in your life? Like if you wanted to now keep pursuing your dream of playing basketball, what would that look like for you as a trans man?

Liam Lazore: See, for me, I feel like the spectrum doesn't go both ways for trans women and trans men. If I was someone who wanted to keep pursuing my basketball career, I feel like I would have been looked upon, like in a more positive way, just because it's known, like men are always stronger and faster and like just growing up as a female and trying to compete with cisgender men, like I might somewhat have a disadvantage, people would think, and they would kind of like cheer me on in a way. In regards to trans women they're looked down upon because people just think it's unfair with their genetics - just growing up as male and just having more strength, more athleticism in a way, depending on what sport it is - and they'll always try to find like disadvantages that they have with cis women and trying to compete with women, so they kind of get held at a pedestal if that makes sense and

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: they just kind of get looked down upon, which is sad to see. In regards to everything, realistically, I don't know too much scientifically on the trans women's side of things. Obviously I only know more about my experience, which

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: has been

Ron: Yeah, of course. So,

Liam Lazore: But.

Ron: have you given thought about it? Would you ever get back into basketball personally?

Liam Lazore: No. No, I've part ways with the sport, really - I play on my own time just for my mental health. And I just love doing it, but I would never get back into it competitively.

Ron: Okay. Well, never is a long time. So I'll watch the space. Okay. So transitioning publicly can be super challenging. We all know we've seen the struggles on social media. Watching yours, it seems like yours might be a little bit more - I don't want to say cushioned, that sounds wrong - but cushion because of the love of your family and friends,

Liam Lazore: Mm.

Ron: how did you navigate those initial stages of the transition, both personally and within your social circles?

Liam Lazore: It was very hard in the beginning. I would say the beginning is always the hardest part, especially like not knowing if you're going to have the support system that you're looking for. I'm just very fortunate and grateful enough that I do. Truthfully, it does kind of make my experience just a little bit easier compared to others who don't have that kind of support.

Ron: Hmm.

Liam Lazore: And it's just sad to see, like knowing that there's others out there that aren't able to have a strong enough support system just for them to be confident enough to go through this and be themselves. Socially, because of my support system in the beginning, I've been able to actually grow a lot with self-love and my own self-confidence and I'm able to just portray this image for other people. And I feel like it makes people gravitate towards me a little bit. And personality wise, I kind of just click with a lot of people. So I just try to make like me being trans just something that is a part of me that I always say it and I said it before, it doesn't define me. I let people ask the questions that they need to ask because I know there's a lot of people, especially in my area, that don't know too many trans individuals. So I'm

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: open to questions. I just try to make other people feel comfortable in that situation. And then when I'm able to have them feel comfortable, it makes me feel comfortable and it kind

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: of makes the conversation just kind of like more relaxed and chill, and I think that's when people realize like, "Oh, like this kid's kind of cool. Like, there's more to him than just him being trans!"

Ron: Exactly.

Liam Lazore: I know there's a lot of people, though, that aren't comfortable with being open, and that's totally fine. That's their life choice. But for me, I feel like it's something that I need to share. And also I'm just grateful to have like the platform that I do to be able to share my story and to be able to actually help other people who are struggling, especially in the beginning stages of their, like, questioning of their gender identity.

Ron: It's so important. I mean, you didn't think that you're going to become a role model, but I think you've accepted that position that role in life, and you're doing it pretty well. Have people come up to you like via direct message or in person saying that your journey has helped them?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. I receive a lot of messages that I will answer through my social media. Obviously, the ones that come up to me in person, though, like those really mean a lot. And I didn't really realize what I was doing until maybe a year and a half ago with my platform. I had someone come up to me in New York City and just tell me, like I've helped them so much in regards to who they are as a person. And like, I kind of just had to take a step back and realize like I should probably take my social media a little bit more seriously. And it, it just means a lot knowing that I'm able to actually help people out there because before I started being open on social media, I told my mom, like, "I think I want to just like talk about my story and just like my journey and see what I could do with that", because I really just wanted to help as many people as I possibly can throughout my lifetime.

Ron: And what's really cool is that you're not only helping people in the transgender community. I've read that you also had a mental health struggle with an eating disorder at one point. If you want to talk about that, that'd be great.

Liam Lazore: Yeah. I was bulimic in college.

Ron: Mm hmm.

Liam Lazore: I was just battling. I was going through a breakup - I was pretty depressed at the time - and I also obviously had body dysphoria.

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: just really wasn't liking what I was seeing in the mirror. I thought I had to look this certain way, be like very skinny and stuff like that. So I resorted to bulimia and I would say that lasted for probably a year and a half. Constantly, every single day. I was able to actually get over that, though, on my own, I didn't really seek for help. I do recommend that people seek for help though when they need it. I

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: didn't, and luckily enough, I was able to overcome that.

Ron: Well, I'm sorry that you went through that, but I'm really proud of the way you handled it.

Liam Lazore: Mmm.

Ron: The reason for this podcast - regular listeners know that it's something that came about as a result of therapy and realizing that so many people, even in 2024, are not comfortable with talking about mental health or seeing

Liam Lazore: War.

Ron: a therapist or any of those things. So having a show like this and I'm not the only one out there, I'm part of a bigger pool of information and it's so good to add to the pool and help people and just make these conversations easier. So would you say your transition affected your relationship with your body and with food and your overall mental health in a good way?

Liam Lazore: Oh, absolutely. Now that I'm able to actually be comfortable in my body, I would say like and just knowing what I'm eating in the gym and fitness wise, like, I eat whatever I want when I want. And I'm

Ron: Well,

Liam Lazore: just.

Ron: because you work your ass off.

Liam Lazore: I do. I do. But I also like to enjoy life too, at the same time. So it's like the simple pleasures in life. So I kind of have to have

Ron: No. I mean,

Liam Lazore: religion.

Ron: from from one guy to another, you look incredible - I mean, I look at you and say, "How the hell am I going to reach that stage?" So no, I can see from the outside looking into your life, people should be able to see; Liam's happy! Liam's finally not having body dysphoria. Like, why can't we allow this kind of happiness for other people? Why is there this opposition to transgender people wanting to transition? Why is this such a thing?

Ron: That actually reminds me of an interview a while back on the Graham Norton Show with Miriam Margolyes She's this classic British actress who just speaks her mind on live television. She'll fart on live television if she feels like it. She's that level of funny and that level of honest.

Ron: And what I loved about her interview was that she spoke about how pronouns confused her -  specifically, now, the 'them' and 'they' pronouns, although it's applicable to transgender pronouns as well. Her answer, she said, at first she couldn't get her head around it. It confused her. She's a purist in terms of the English language, and she couldn't get her head around calling someone 'them' or 'they' when he or she would have sufficed in terms of grammar.

Ron: it confused her

Liam Lazore: The.

Ron: she couldn't do it. And then a friend sat and chatted with her and very simply said, "Miriam, if you can make someone's day and you can make someone happy just by addressing them with the pronoun they would love to hear, don't you think it's worth making them happy?" And it was like a light bulb went

Liam Lazore: You

Ron: on for her, she said, from that moment on she doesn't give a damn what anybody wants to call themselves. She'll call them that as long as it makes them happy.

Liam Lazore: No,

Ron: And

Liam Lazore: exactly.

Ron: that's sorta the key, isn't it? You being transgender, you having transitioned from a girl to a boy and a woman to a man that doesn't affect anybody but you.

Liam Lazore: We?

Ron: If it affects anybody, maybe it affects your family, but it's clear that your family's only been supportive! So that's what I can't get into my head - why society is so opposed to transgender people. Do you find that there's a lot of opposition to you? Do you experience hate mail? Are there people coming up to you in the street being negative or would you say it's better than you expected?

Liam Lazore: No, it's definitely better than I expected. The only hate I receive or backlash is through social media. Unfortunately, that's what you get for being as open with things on social media and just having like a somewhat bigger platform. I'd say you're always going to come across like people who are trying to put you down.

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I always told my family you don't really need to understand like what someone's going through. All you have to do is respect them. And like you said, if that's what makes them happy, then just respect that. You don't really need to understand it. It just doesn't affect your life at all. So the easiest way you can do is just respect a person just for who they are.

Ron: Yeah. It's like the penguins in Madagascar. "Just smile and wave, boys.

Liam Lazore: Yeah. Yeah, exactly!

Ron: We're going to take a quick break and then I want to come back and talk about about your surgery.

Liam Lazore: Okay!

Ron: All right. So now I want to talk about the surgeries. I think a lot of people will find that interesting, some people might not be comfortable, at least this is audio, You don't have to look at scars or wounds or footage of the actual surgery. So bear with us. So your latest surgery was you call it bottom surgery?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. Phalloplasty.

Ron: Okay. So, 'Phalloplasty' was your bottom surgery, and your top surgery was 'Mammaplasty' Am I correct?

Liam Lazore: I got a double mastectomy.

Ron: And then your hysterectomy. Was that the first big surgery you went through?

Liam Lazore: No. My first big one was my top surgery, and then I got my hysterectomy.

Ron: Oh. First it was okay. First it was top surgery. So

Liam Lazore: What?

Ron: for anyone listening who doesn't understand, just explain a little bit. I mean, this is we've said this before, and it's good to emphasize that again, every single transgender person's journey is different,

Liam Lazore: Mm

Ron: and

Liam Lazore: hmm.

Ron: it's especially different for transgender men and transgender women. But just from your perspective, from your angle, what does transitioning look like for you? What did you go through to get where you're at today?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. From my experience, I knew right off the bat I needed to go through top surgery first because I. That is just the removal of your breasts. Simplest way to put it. I

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: obviously did not like having breasts. and I was very dysphoric about it. I would try to hide it as much as I could, and I knew that was the first thing that I needed to get rid of off my body.

Ron: Yeah. Yeah.

Liam Lazore: And I went through that when I was 20, 21, I want to say. And that's just removing my breasts - I have these two big scars across my chest because of it. But I've

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I've come to love those scars that I have and every single scar I've had through all my surgeries. And after that, I went through a hysterectomy, which is just the removal of my uterus. And

Ron: Mm hmm.

Liam Lazore: it was needed in order to prepare for my bottom surgery that I recently just got.

Ron: Okay. So it's been, from what I gather then, like a four, maybe five year journey so far with surgeries all in all?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. Has. I'm coming up on five years. In a couple of months.

Ron: Wow.

Ron: You've been through the ringer, my friend. So basically this Phalloplasty was the last surgery, and that sort of marks the end of a long journey, doesn't it?

Liam Lazore: It does, but Phalloplasty is split up into different stages of surgeries. So I got the first one done and I still have two more that I need to go through.

Ron: Oh, I understand. Yes. So there are steps and the body needs to heal and doctors need

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: to check that everything is going the way it should be going. Now, it's interesting when you spoke about the scars on your chest. There's a fitness influencer who had a similar surgery, but he's not trans. He's is

Liam Lazore: Uh-huh?

Ron: a cis-male, And

Liam Lazore: And.

Ron: because of the scars, people are constantly attacking him for being transgender. And

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: and he just rolls with it - he laughs it off -  he's a gay man, so he's also trans ally.

Liam Lazore: But.

Ron: I'm pretty sure you know who it is - it's 'BigScherly' but it's so

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: fun to see his stuff and to see him, you know, clap back without actually being mean

Liam Lazore: Mm

Ron: and

Liam Lazore: hmm.

Ron: just having people realize it's no big deal. Like, why even go for somebody because they

Liam Lazore: You

Ron: have

Liam Lazore: know.

Ron: chest scars, like let people live their lives. So

Liam Lazore: This.

Ron: how would you say you're getting on after all these surgeries? How are you feeling? How's your health overall? Would you say you're on a good trajectory physically?

Liam Lazore: Oh, absolutely. I would say, like also mentally like my mental health has improved immensely after each surgery. And its just crazy to see how these gender affirming surgeries are actually helping out individuals like myself.

Ron: It's massive. And that's where gender dysphoria comes in. And people who don't understand gender dysphoria, maybe just explain it a little bit from your perspective. Growing up, what did that look like and feel like?

Liam Lazore: It's kind of hard to put it into words. I'd say you can't really describe gender dysphoria to people who don't truly understand, but. I guess I could just go into, like, my experience with it, I guess.

Ron: Yeah, sure.

Liam Lazore: When I was growing up, I. I never. My brain just didn't connect with my body. Basically easiest way to put

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: it. And

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: what I was seeing in the mirror and I knew that I wanted to look a certain way. I always wanted to look like a muscular man. I would have all these guys, all these celebrities taped up in my room as, like, somewhat of like a shrine, I guess. And I just. I wanted to look like them, I wasn't, like, sexually attracted to them. I just was like, I want to look like them one day and

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: acquire that physique and everything. And luckily enough, I've been able to. I cross-dressed when I was younger, so I was a girl cross-dressing in boys clothes and

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I did that my whole life. I could never wear a dress. I just was never confident or comfortable enough to be wearing girl clothes at all. It just made me feel so uncomfortable and I kind of disassociated myself from that when I had to like on special events or occasions or whatever

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I

Ron: Around

Liam Lazore: had to.

Ron: what age was this? Around what age did you realize as a girl "My brain doesn't connect with how my body looks. I don't like wearing girls clothes!" around what age were you?

Liam Lazore: Oh, I was very young. I just really didn't know what was happening. I would say age wise, I was probably like in first or second grade.

Ron: Wow. Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: was going through this and this is like when I could remember way back then, I would always argue with my mom when we had to go to church or whatever. She would want me to wear certain things and I would just burst into tears because I just couldn't get myself to wear a simple piece of clothing that I just truly did not feel comfortable in.

Ron: That's amazing.

Liam Lazore: New.

Ron: And and it must have been really tough on a kid to feel a certain way and not be able to express yourself in that way.

Liam Lazore: Mm hmm.

Ron: And I think that's so important for parents of kids who are potentially transgendered to understand is that it's not a choice you make

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: It's something that you know from an intrinsic place. From a very young age. And it's the same with gay people. Like when I had to come out. Often you get silly questions, like, "Oh, when did you decide?" And the first response is usually snide. I'll be like, "Honestly, you think I'm going to decide to live a lifestyle that people will oppress!?" No, you don't make a decision

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: like that. You don't want to go against the grain. it's so the opposite of human nature, we're a species that wants community, we want to fit in. We want to conform. We want to keep everybody happy. We want to be part of the tribe. So why would we make a decision to physically go against the grain? It just doesn't make sense.

Liam Lazore: Exactly.

Ron: So that's what I try and shed light on always with these types of conversations. And it's so cool that you can express this and say that the earliest memory you have is one of gender dysphoria, basically.

Liam Lazore: Yeah. Mm hmm. I was in

Ron: So.

Liam Lazore: first grade. I was in first grade in Catholic school. And

Ron: Wow.

Liam Lazore: like in Catholic school, the girls had to wear dresses or skirts, and the boys had to wear just khaki pants and polo shirts. And I would wear the khaki pants and polo shirts. I just couldn't even wear the skirt or dress that they wanted us to wear. And I did get in trouble a few times by the nun because of this, but I loved to wear that thing. So.

Ron: Now. I mean, in countries like South Africa, it's a little bit easier, I think, than other third world countries - It sounds awful saying third world country, I hate that term - But I mean, it is what it is. I can only imagine how tough it must be in countries where it's a societal norm to conform in terms of the way you dress and the way you speak and the way you look. Whereas we're very lucky, you and I, the countries we live it's a little bit easier

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: transitioning and coming out, living your truth. So, I mean, I can only hope that these kinds of shows enlighten people and will mean something for at least the future of those countries and legislation in those countries. That's why we need 'Pride'. It's always crazy when you hear people say, "Well, why do you need gay pride? You have rights already." And I'm just like, "Yeah, I have rights. But there are countries where you're literally put to death for being gay or being trans, so, you know, I'm gonna keep doing pride.

Liam Lazore: Well.

Ron: So there's no question about it. But now, as a former athlete, how do you perceive that intersection of gender identity and sports and are there changes that you would like to see in creating a more inclusive environment for transgender athletes? Of course, and transgender life in general, there are so many places that we want to see intersections and inclusivity, but you're from a sporting background, so it's important to hear your voice as a sportsperson and you're a coach still, as far as I know, not only a coach in terms of fitness in the gym, but you're also still a basketball coach, am I right?

Liam Lazore: I'm not. No, not anymore. I did coach.

Ron: Oh you're not.

Liam Lazore: I was assistant coach for, like, a couple of years, but not anymore.

Ron: Okay. Okay. But I mean, you still have 100% a valid voice because you came straight out of that world. What would you say are some of the first places that there has to be improvement, inclusivity, positive change in sports? What would be like the first things you change?

Liam Lazore: Honestly, fortunately enough, I had a great experience with my sports life and just being female. I didn't come across any negative things that really stood out to me

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: with like the teams I played or my teammates. Like that was my family and my coaches were always nice, especially in college when I did come out and my teammates found out and my coaches as well, like they still treated me the same and I'm very grateful for that. And the only like backlash or negative comments I would get were from family members in the stands. Not that I would hear them directly, but my parents were in the stands and they would hear certain things. I had short hair at the time as a girl and I let my leg hair grow out in college and I was playing basketball. I didn't shave my legs and I just kind of looked different compared to like the social norms, as you talked about. And

Ron: Sure.

Liam Lazore: the only backlash I had or negative things were from like the fans. And that's really it. Aside from that, like I've had a great experience with the sports world and I just feel like it's pretty easy for me. I just had a great support system. And that kind of is what made my experience so easy in a way, even though it's not easy, but like it just made it a lot easier.

Ron: Yeah. No, I mean, that's such good news to hear. I recently finished watching the documentary on Netflix about Colton Underwood's coming out.

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: I mean, obviously he comes from a very privileged place, being such a well-known person and having a - well, at the time, he didn't know that he would have a supportive family - but he ended up having a supportive family. And just one conversation I remember with regards to what you and I are talking about now is he went to one of his college coaches and explained to the coach that it was a very difficult environment for him to even consider accepting himself as a gay man, never mind coming out as a gay man. Like there was always an air of homophobia in the locker rooms and and

Liam Lazore: You know.

Ron: slurs were always thrown around. So I think I'm going to venture a guess here and say that outright homophobia and transphobia happens a lot more in male locker rooms than it does in girls locker rooms. And I think that's maybe why it was easier for you. I don't know. Do you agree?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. I would 100% agree with that. I just I don't know. I feel like it's a lot different if you're a male in the male's locker room. I know how a lot of them act and stuff. Like a lot of my buddies played sports and everything and like, I've heard some stories, so it's definitely a completely different experience, I would say, just coming from both sides of the spectrum.

Ron: Yeah, no 100%. I mean I remember as a kid how tough it was, just getting undressed in the locker room, just being aware of my body like I don't even have any form of body dysphoria. It's just that self awareness and being a gay boy, I didn't want to be caught out as

Liam Lazore: And.

Ron: gay. So it's tough. I mean, it's a Western construct, I think, this whole masculine image we have - of how men should act and look and whether gay people should be tolerated or trans-people should be tolerated - it's a construct that we hopefully are moving away from. And conversations like these are going to help it along. It's so cool to see representation on TV. I mean, I'm listening to a podcast about the Will and Grace show. They're sort of recapping the whole thing, and it's crazy to think that that was already over 30 years ago. Back then it was sort of new. It was fresh to have a gay main character in a show. There was no major kissing or intimate scenes. There was always just the hint of it or alluding to it. Now, if you look at movies and series these days, it's almost expected that there would be gay or trans characters, which is fantastic! I mean, that's the best news!

Liam Lazore: The first trans person I saw on a TV show was "Shameless". And when I saw Elliot, like, freaked out, I was like, I got so happy just to have, like, some kind of representation in a show like that.

Ron: It's amazing. I didn't realize the power of representation on screen until Black Panther

Liam Lazore: Mm hmm.

Ron: and since Black Panther the remake of The Little Mermaid and just seeing how black kids respond to representation, it's massive. So it's the exact same thing. It's the exact same joy that a gay kid or a trans kid or a black kid gets from representation on screen. It's so important.

Liam Lazore: Hmm.

Ron: Do you find that there's enough? Well, no, there's obviously not enough representation of trans people on screen. But do you see a bit of an uptake? Are there more and more shows with representation?

Liam Lazore: I would say yeah, it's slowly progressing up, which is great to see. Obviously it would be nice to see a lot more representation out there, but we're making slow steps towards that and that's all you can kind of ask for. So

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: it's a

Ron: Yeah,

Liam Lazore: good

Ron: we

Liam Lazore: thing.

Ron: just keep moving the needle. That's fantastic. So would you say you're leaning towards advocacy? Is that something that you enjoy? I've seen that you do a talk every now and then. You recently did a talk and you discussed affirming support systems for trans individuals. What does life look like in that regard for you? What do you see yourself doing going forward?

Liam Lazore: Going forward. What I would really like to get into is actually being more of a guest speaker-type of person and just advocate that way and just share my story in person with whether it be colleges, workplaces or just like small events And just going from

Ron: All

Liam Lazore: there

Ron: right.

Liam Lazore: always honestly been my dream for the past two years

Ron: Wow.

Liam Lazore: and just being open about things that way. I just feel like I could do something for other people and just get things out there more.

Ron: What did it feel like that first time on stage doing a talk like this?

Liam Lazore: Honestly, it's very surreal. Like, I never really expected for social media to do what it has done for me so far. And I'm just grateful to be where I'm at. I like to stay very humble, though, and just let people know like I'm just a normal human being just out here sharing something that's very important to me, and I'm also advocating for other people who aren't able to be as open or who aren't able to be as confident.

Liam Lazore: I never would have guessed that I would be where I'm at today just in life and seeing how much social media has done for me to get me to where I am. It's just great. Honestly, I'm very fortunate to be where I'm at in my life.

Ron: That's amazing. It warms my heart. Seeing these things happen and having this conversation with you was so important for me to have a conversation with you about all these topics. I didn't want to leave any topic untouched. I'm glad we spoke about surgery and stuff.

Liam Lazore: Mm hmm.

Ron: So I want to sort of shift to a broader topic and, just chat about cultures and religions - You mentioned

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: that you were in a Catholic school - were you guys Catholic in terms of your religion at home and how did that look?

Liam Lazore: Yeah. So my mom's very Catholic. Her side of the family is very Catholic. We went to church every single Sunday for 18 years of my life - she wanted us, my brother and I, to go every Sunday with her until we were 18 and off to college when we're able to actually make our own decisions. So

Ron: Hmm.

Liam Lazore: that's what I did. My dad's not religious at all, but I wouldn't say that has affected anything in our family. Our church is actually very supportive of LGBTQ, and I still feel comfortable going into our church today. I just don't go as much or practice as much, but I still have a little bit of religion behind me and still believe in my Catholic beliefs that I was brought up on and I still

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: actually pray here and there because God has helped me a lot through my hardships in the past and I still

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: feel that he supports and loves me for the person I am.

Ron: And that's so good to hear. That's amazing. I mean, we see so many varied journeys with religion just

Liam Lazore: Uh-hm

Ron: in the LGBTQ community. You hear crazy stories of really heartbreaking situations of people being kicked out of churches and kicked out of families and stuff. And I'm so happy to hear that your story is the complete opposite of that,

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: that you still get to go to church and you don't have a discord with faith. You feel really in tune with your faith and you're in tune with your mom's religion and you're accepting of your dad's stance on religion - It sounds like a really healthy family. You guys are pretty well put together, man!

Liam Lazore: We try to be, I guess.

Ron: Let's dive back into slightly more heavy topics;

Liam Lazore: Okay.

Ron: we've spoken about the discrimination and stuff that you've experienced - I think it's safe to say that you've not experienced much of it, and that's a relief, I'm really happy to hear that.

Liam Lazore: Mental.

Ron: But you and I both know of serious discrimination and violence against transgendered individuals. What would you say are steps that can be taken to combat discrimination and ensure more safety and more well-being for transgender people? I guess especially in the States, that's where you can speak from. What

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: would you say are things that society can do?

Liam Lazore: I've been seeing a lot of stuff going on, a lot of like trans kids in the news especially in the schools. And recently this one kid was bullied so much that he was killed just for wanting to. transition a certain way and just be someone who he thought was best for himself, and the school didn't really do much about it. And that's just heartbreaking to see, obviously. And I just feel like it all comes down to parenting and also our school system. There's a lot of schools out there who are slowly getting better in regards to everything that's been happening in society and how much we've been able to grow and trying to be more accommodating to individuals, which is great to see. But I still feel like there's a lot of work to be done. Obviously, I'm not in that environment enough to be able to kind of give my thoughts and ideas to it, because I don't

Ron: Sure.

Liam Lazore: 100% know what's going on, I feel like we're slowly making steps. But at the same time, the government banning trans kids, especially in Florida, and not being able to, like, get their hormones and actually transition. That's a sad thing to see. I know there's a lot of different opinions on this and whether trans kids should be able to transition at such a young age. And I feel like it comes down to the person themselves because they know themselves best. Sometimes I do feel like maybe it is a good thing that we wait until we're about 18, but at the same time, you're still kind of messing with with that person's mental health if they're not able to wait until then. It's just such a tough conversation to have. And there's

Ron: Sure.

Liam Lazore: still like there's no right or wrong to it, which sucks. And there's no easy way to find out what works best. But. There's just so much going on in the news nowadays, especially with trans individuals. I've been saying

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: I feel like a lot of it is just negative things.

Ron: Well, I saw something interesting a while back. Actually it was a conversation that Jonathan Van Ness had with with someone. And it was about a topic completely different from what we're talking about. But it came up by chance how in the Nixon administration there was a conversation off the books that ended up being recorded and reported on later, and I'm not going to quote because I'll totally butcher the quote, but essentially Nixon admitted to at the time when there was the war on drugs, it was not so much the war on drugs that was being waged, as it was a way to oppress black people and to shut up the hippie movement who wanted the war to end. So I think this current climate of hate towards transgendered people and all the negative news that seems to proliferate and get way too much attention is a way of deflecting the public's attention from other real pressing matters like the health care system, war, the amount of weaponry that's manufactured by the US and sent out to war torn countries. You know, those things are actually worth talking about, but it's easier to just talk about trans people and and villainize them. It blows my mind. I don't know how it works, but that seems to be the case.

Liam Lazore: Yeah, I can agree to that. I feel like that's what's been kind of happening a lot more.

Ron: So you spoke about gender affirming care for young people. I mean, yes, it is a controversial topic of

Liam Lazore: And.

Ron: late. And I've laid many nights thinking about like, how would I handle it? Like if I was a parent and my kid was in this position and they wanted gender affirming care before they turned 18, how would I handle it? I honestly don't know. I don't know how I would answer that question. But

Liam Lazore: Well.

Ron: let's just look at yourself and let's look at those who are older than 18. There are still barriers that exist in accessing health care and gender affirming care. Like, what would you say are ways in which these barriers can be addressed? How can they be improved or taken away completely?

Liam Lazore: The barriers I had to go through was obviously I couldn't just meet up with a doctor and say, I want to do this and like It was set and done. There were steps I had to go through in order to acquire the surgeries that I've already gone through. And they were long steps, like it's a long process. But I do feel like it's kind of needed, especially

Ron: Mm

Liam Lazore: for

Ron: hmm.

Liam Lazore: things like this. I had to go through therapy for a little bit just to make sure that I do struggle with gender dysphoria. And from there, I needed to acquire a letter from a therapist. I also needed to acquire a letter from my doctor that I see. And using those, I needed to set up consultation appointments and stuff like that in order to go through with certain surgeries. And I feel like those steps are needed and very important, because I feel like therapy helps out a lot in regards to just letting people actually let their own thoughts and emotions out because a lot of us bottle it up and we don't feel comfortable sharing it, especially with close people in our lives and just being able to share whatever is going on with a therapist and just open up about things that helps you just try to understand what it is that you're looking for or what you're going through, you know.

Ron: Sure. I want to circle back to transgender youth and the challenges they face. How would you say parents and educators and policymakers can create more inclusive spaces for youth? Do you have any insights, anything that hits you in the middle of the night and you thought, "Oh, this can already improve the situation in schools and for kids at home trying to come out to their parents!" what would you say are things they can do?

Liam Lazore: I think it really just comes down to the peers of that person's like whatever grade they're in. Obviously,

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: we know like elementary and high school, middle school, it comes down to our classmates. Like, high school and middle school, were hard, there's a lot of bullying going on. That's just kind of what happens with school, unfortunately, we're not fully mature and I just feel like it comes down to the parenting of those children and just being more on top of your kids and teaching them like there might be people out there who are a little different compared to you and that it's totally okay and

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: and just respecting them as who they are and just being nice because being nice, as you said earlier, it goes such a long way for someone.

Ron: It's huge. I mean, it's like you say, it's school - we're young and dumb at that age and people get bullied for wearing glasses,

Liam Lazore: Yeah.

Ron: nevermind being trans, And so, you know, it's a tough one. But would you say that while you were at school, the bullying that you encountered wasn't above average, wasn't extreme, wasn't violent. And you feel like the schooling system and the teachers handled it well, or are there ways that that can be improved?

Liam Lazore: Uhm, the school I went to, I myself did not go through bullying. I didn't get bullied. But. The school I went to was very just cisgender heterosexual. And, you just didn't see a lot of people being open with their sexuality if they were a little different from the norm, you know?

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: But you could kind of tell who was and you could just tell, like they're afraid to be open in our school just because of how we've kind of grown up. And, like, we go more for the social norms in life. All the teachers were very supportive of their students, but there are ones who are still judgmental and have their own views. And you just kind of had to like hide who you were a little bit in the school I was. That's kind of how I felt, too. I just didn't truly feel comfortable enough or confident enough to express what I was going through to anyone. And I just kind of put on a mask just to get through the day. You know, there's

Ron: Yeah.

Liam Lazore: there's definitely a lot that teachers should do. I had one teacher in high school who I still love to this day. He - I follow him on Instagram. Mr. Callahan - he's an openly gay man, and he's just himself. Like he didn't let his sexuality overcome anything in regards to how he went about class and everything. And he made you feel comfortable in his class. And I don't know, there's just something about him that made me feel comfortable just to be there compared to a lot of my other teachers. And I just felt more relaxed in a way. And I just feel like he's a great guy in regards to looking up to for teachers out there because there are ones who don't know how to handle situations like this.

Ron: Yeah. I think it's really tough for most people to handle it. That's one of the exact reasons that I think these conversations that you and I are having today are so important because somewhere someone sitting with their feet up after a long day of being a teacher and marking up papers and having their cup of tea and they're listening and hopefully a light bulb goes off. And tomorrow when they go back to their class, they just know a little bit more about

Liam Lazore: Hmmm!

Ron: trans kids and how to handle that situation and be better. But shout out to Mr. Callahan for being awesome. I hope he gets to listen to this!

Liam Lazore: I have a lot of friends who are teachers now and they always come back to me saying like just me sharing my story, like I've helped them interact with some of their students. And I think that's a beautiful thing, too, just being able to see my peers treat their own students with respect. And I think that's definitely a positive impact for those kids.

Ron: That's so good to hear. That's such cool news. I think it makes your day when you get feedback like that.

Liam Lazore: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Ron: So listen, let's get down to the last three or four questions. These are going to be a little bit more lighthearted and personal.

Liam Lazore: Okay!

Ron: What can individuals do to be better allies and educate themselves and advocate for transgender rights and inclusion? Basically, what we're doing with this conversation, what would you say is your overarching thought about how people can help the trans community?

Liam Lazore: Overall, it just comes down to respect. I said earlier, you don't need to understand my life at all. Just respect me and my decisions that I made and just respect how I go about life and use the pronouns that I use and just treat me how I want to be treated. And that's really all it comes down to is literally just being nice to a person. That's it!

Ron: Yeah, I agree. And Miriam Margolyes was right in that interview when she said, "Bugger, grammar! Just be nice to people!" -

Liam Lazore: Yeah!

Ron: most important thing is that people are happy and they get to express themselves in the way that they wish to - and in that way they become a functional, healthy, happy part of society. It just furthers the well-being of society to afford trans people inclusion the same way that everyone else at some point has finally been offered inclusion from people of color to gay people, to women who were finally allowed to vote and have more say in life. It's crazy that people are so misaligned and set aside in society. It's like we're lepers! All right. What's one piece of advice that you would give your younger self if you look back? If I did like RuPaul does on Drag Race, and I held up a photo of you when you were a little girl, what's one piece of advice that you would have for your younger self?

Liam Lazore: Yeah! Definitely "Just be kind to yourself." I'm so hard on myself to this day, and I went through such a hard time just five years ago that I literally hated who I was, and I never thought I would get to where I'm at today. So just be kind to yourself and be patient. I always say that I'm always like on the go and need instant gratification. But this is such a long process and journey. Just be patient with life, be more present, and just enjoy where you're at right now.

Ron: That's beautiful. Alright, so where can people find more information about you and what you do? I know that you work with Alex Tilinca and you're

Liam Lazore: In.

Ron: one of the trainers there. Is that sort of your main focus in terms of work every day, or are there other things that you do?

Liam Lazore: No. So I work in sales for U.S. foods. That is my full time job. I do coaching on the side and I do my social media too. So social media wise, Instagram is just @LiamLazore Tik Tok is @LiamLaz23 and those are the two platforms that I utilize for everything.

Ron: Okay fab! So, listen, before you go, was there anything that we haven't covered that you were hoping we would talk about?

Liam Lazore: No. I feel like we covered a lot just within this little timeframe.

Ron: We did like I feel bad for having knuckled down -  like I grilled you! But it was such a cool chat. Thank you so much for your time. Listen. Final question

Liam Lazore: Mm.

Ron: and I ask this of all my guests: What can everyone do right now in this second to make the world a better place?

Liam Lazore: It literally comes down to being kind. Again, respecting one another and just going about your life as your life, someone else's life doesn't affect yours. So just enjoy life where you're at. Be kind to the people around you. And that's really all you need to do.

Ron: That's fantastic. Liam, my friend, thank you again for your time, for being vocal about your journey, for putting it all out there, for people to see. That's how I discovered you. I cannot wait to see what you do with your journey. I can't wait to keep supporting you and seeing you grow and flourish and inspire people the way you do. I wish you only the best, brother. And thanks again for your time.

Liam Lazore: I appreciate you for reaching out, Ron. Thank you so much for having me.

Ron: We'll stay in touch. Love you, brother.

Liam Lazore: Love you too, man!