Pink October: Mammograms Matter and Revolutionizing Workplace Culture / EP. 38

Welcome back to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast! Today, we have an extraordinary guest, Tabbin Almond, whose journey of overcoming alcohol use disorder and advocating for a healthier workplace culture will leave you inspired and motivated.

Tabbin is the author of Bottling Up Trouble: How alcohol is harming your business...and what to do about it.   A much needed look into how alcohol is holding your business back and challenging the alcohol-centric culture in the workplace.

Tabbin also shares her battle with breast cancer. She highlights the vital importance of advocating for oneself in medical situations and shares personal insights into breast cancer awareness and advocacy.

Join us as we explore the impact of alcohol in professional settings, and discuss strategies for personal well-being. With this being Breast Cancer Awareness Month, this conversation is more timely than ever. Don’t miss out on this powerful episode!

Where to buy Tabbin's book: Bottling Up Trouble 
Connect with Tabbin: tabbin@winetowatercoaching.com @winetowatercoaching
Website: https://www.winetowatercoaching.com
Listen to Tabbin's Podcast The Alcohol Debate 

Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, and ask us any questions you have about breaking free from wine or living an alcohol-free lifestyle. Your question could be the highlight of a future episode!

Grab our Feel Lit Weekend Guide!
https://feellitpodcast.com/Guide

Watch Episode on Youtube! https://www.youtube.com/@FeelLitAlcoholFreePodcast/videos

Websites:
Susan Larkin Coaching https://www.susanlarkincoaching.com/
Ruby Williams at Freedom Renegade Coaching https://www.freedomrenegadecoaching.com/

Follow Susan: @drinklesswithsusan
Follow Ruby: @rubywilliamscoaching

It is strongly recommended that you seek professional advice regarding your health before attempting to take a break from alcohol. The creators, hosts, and producers of the The Feel Lit Alcohol Free podcast are not healthcare practitioners and therefore do not give medical, or psychological advice nor do they intend for the podcast, any resource or communication on behalf of the podcast or otherwise to be a substitute for such.

Transcript

Sick and tired of your love-hate relationship with wine?
Welcome to the feel it alcohol free podcast. Hi. I'm coach Ruby Williams. And I'm coach Susan Larkin. We are 2 former wine lovers turned alcohol freedom coaches exposing the lies about alcohol and giving you, our listeners, the tools to break free so you can feel lit. And when you're lit, you'll feel healthier, freer, and more in control of your life. So relax, kick back, and get ready to feel lit alcohol free. And don't forget, grab a copy of our wine free weekend guide after the show.

Ruby [00:00:33]:
Welcome. Welcome. I'm so excited for another episode. And, this month, it's October and it's Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Happy October. And, we invited a special guest to share her story a little bit around the subject.

Ruby [00:00:57]:
So welcome, Tabbin Almond. Yeah. She's had a drinking career that started early and really took off when she worked in advertising. And her drinking made her miserable and affected every area of her life. But now, having overcome her own addiction, she's a coach, a blogger, podcaster, and speaker to help others control alcohol and find freedom. And, we'll be talking about our book launch. Also, I'm so proud of you, Tabin. So welcome.

Ruby [00:01:29]:
Welcome to the Feel It Alcohol Free podcast. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:01:32]:
Oh, I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me on.

Ruby [00:01:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. Would you like to get us started by just sharing a little bit about yourself and maybe a background about your alcohol free journey?

Tabbin Almond [00:01:44]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, as you can tell by my accent already, probably, I'm a Brit. I grew up in the countryside on a farm, and alcohol was completely normalized in our lives. Not that we drank as children, but the adults did. And it was completely normal, and kind of expected. And my brothers and I got told off by my parents for calling the vet out once.

Tabbin Almond [00:02:14]:
And, my parents were away for the day. And when he'd finished with the cow that was having a difficult carving, we invited him in to have a wash up and stuff. And we offered him a cup of tea. And my parents came back and we were all sitting at the kitchen table with cups of tea. And they were angry with us for offering him tea and not alcohol. So it was as expected. It wasn't just, you know, something that people did. It was how we do things around here.

Tabbin Almond [00:02:47]:
So unsurprisingly, I kind of followed suit. My mother had really quite a problem with alcohol, and I always vowed I wouldn't turn out like her. But gradually, I did. Yeah. For a long time, it was just what I thought of as social drinking.

Ruby [00:03:06]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:03:07]:
And it was, you know, as teenagers going to the pub, because the pub's a very big thing here in the UK. And I would go off to the pub with my friends. We were underage, but the landlords kind of knew our parents. It wasn't a big deal. And then I went to university, drank more. I studied French, went to cognac for a year, and drank even more. And then and then I went into advertising. And I fitted right in.

Tabbin Almond [00:03:39]:
It was a really boozy culture back in the eighties because I'm quite old. And it was it was you know, I loved it. We drank every day at lunchtime and

Ruby [00:03:48]:
then we should

Tabbin Almond [00:03:48]:
have it afterwards.

Ruby [00:03:50]:
So it reminds me of the Mad Men episode. Was it still like that in the eighties? Like, that's from, like, the sixties. Right? That show? It was. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:03:59]:
And in fact, in my first agency, there was a corridor, a long corridor with a yellow carpet that was called the golden mile. And all the board directors had offices off there. And you'd go sort of through a little bit, which is where their PA sat and then into their office. And every single one of them had a drinks cabinet and a fridge. And there was, you know, they weren't full of non alcoholic drinks.

Ruby [00:04:27]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:04:27]:
Yeah. You might find the odd mixer mixer in there, but basically, it was booze. And the, you know, the sort of obvious thing to do was to arrange meetings with them for around about 5 o'clock. And then that's

Ruby [00:04:40]:
You got a drink.

Tabbin Almond [00:04:41]:
Mhmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how it was. And I think I probably knew that I drank more than other people. You'd go to a dinner party and the wine would get stuck at the other end of the table, and I'd be going, come on. Pass it up.

Tabbin Almond [00:04:55]:
Pass it up.

Ruby [00:04:56]:
I remember that. Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:04:59]:
But it wasn't really until I was we'd moved from London down here to the southwest. And my husband was away quite a lot with work, and I was at home with 2 small children. And then I was drinking on my own, and that's when I realized, hang on, I seem to be really relying on this. And, it just was like a big preoccupation. I didn't have any really spectacular rock bottoms. I had a couple of blackouts, never when I was on my own with the children. But I just knew that I was not functioning very well. Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:05:41]:
I remember saying to John, my ex husband, that I felt like I was sleepwalking through life. And I didn't really know at that stage what it was, but with the benefit of hindsight, it was alcohol. Yeah. Yes. Stunningly. Yeah.

Susan [00:05:54]:
I can totally relate to that. Yeah.

Ruby [00:05:57]:
I relate to that too. Sleepwalking through life. That really explains it. Mhmm. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:06:02]:
Yeah. And then, in 2013, so 11 years ago, things were going pretty wrong in life. My marriage fell apart and I was left with really very significant financial problems. And my husband left at the beginning of November. And then in late November, early December, I went for a routine mammogram. I was actually on 6 monthly mammograms because I had had a lump, which hadn't gone away. And they sort of said, well, we'll just check it with the mammogram. And because there is a lump, we'll keep checking it.

Ruby [00:06:49]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:06:49]:
And I had this routine mammogram. And I had a letter a few weeks later, which arrived around about Christmas time, saying, dear missus Arment, happy to say no abnormalities detected. And I thought, well, that's good. And then I had this, it was an utterly weird experience. I woke up in the middle of the night, and I just had a real deep gut intuition that that letter was wrong. No pain, no symptoms. I just thought that's not right. There's something that matters.

Tabbin Almond [00:07:31]:
And I can't explain it, but it was a really strong feeling. It woke me up in the night, and I thought, oh, that's a bit weird. I'd had a similar feeling about the marriage and what was going on there, and I'd been right. So I just thought, do yourself a favor and listen. Because you were right last time when you had a similar sort of feeling. Mhmm. And I had been having therapy over the break up of the marriage and stuff. And I think I just opened my subconscious a bit.

Tabbin Almond [00:08:02]:
I was just listening to myself better. Mhmm. So I booked an appointment to see the doctor. And he I I live in a very rural area. I know my doctor quite well. And he knows that I'm not a sort of histrionic person maybe. I don't know. But he thankfully listened and said, okay.

Tabbin Almond [00:08:26]:
Well let's get you checked. And within 3 or 4 days I was in the hospital. As soon as I saw the consultant, she was a surgeon, and she took one look at it. And she said, yeah. I'm really glad you're here. I don't like the look of this. And then she explained that what they would do is send me to have another mammogram. And then after that, they would do, an ultrasound, which hadn't been done.

Tabbin Almond [00:08:56]:
So far, it only had mammograms. So I had the mammogram done. And then the guy came in, and the consultant surgeon had said that the guy who does the ultrasound won't volunteer any information. But if you ask him outright, he'll tell you what he thinks. So this guy came into the room that I've been shown into and said, okay. Well, I've just had a look at your mammogram. It all looks fine. I don't really understand why you're here, especially as you only had a mammogram very recently.

Tabbin Almond [00:09:30]:
And so I explained to him. And he wasn't unpleasant, but he was a bit patronizing. His he was a little bit, well, let's just do this, and then we can put your pretty little head at rest

Ruby [00:09:41]:
and you can walk. Yeah. Yeah. Go bye bye. Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:09:43]:
Yeah. And, so he started doing the ultrasound, which is just like the ultrasound that you have when you're pregnant. You know, they get the cold jelly and stuff. And he did it. And he was very quiet, didn't say anything, but was looking and kept looking at the screen and adjusting dials and things like that. And, in the end, I said, what can you see? And he turned he was looking at the screen, and he turned around to look at me. And his expression was completely different to what it had been before. And he said, what I can see is a woman with potentially life saving instincts.

Tabbin Almond [00:10:23]:
And I went

Ruby [00:10:24]:
Wow. That's

Tabbin Almond [00:10:27]:
And, and he said, yeah. You have got a tumor. It's a DCIS, which stands for ductal carcinoma in situ. It runs along one of the ducts in the breast. He said that looking at this, it's between 4 and a half and 5 centimeters long. When it was removed, it actually turned out to be a bit bigger than that. Wow. And he said, it's big.

Tabbin Almond [00:10:59]:
We need to get this sorted. He said, I'm gonna do a biopsy now. The biopsy isn't to confirm whether there's cancer there. There clearly is. The biopsy is to tell us what sort of cancer, what's caused it.

Ruby [00:11:14]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:11:15]:
He said it's almost definitely hormonal, but there are different things. He said mostly when we see this, it's estrogen sensitive. They call it an estrogen receptor Okay. Which is what mine was. I then asked the obvious question of if this has happened because I've been taking HRT? And he said, we just don't know. The jury is completely out. And as far as I understand, it still is, this whole connection between breast cancer and HRT. But he said

Ruby [00:11:44]:
Can you know what HRT is for those that don't know it?

Tabbin Almond [00:11:47]:
Hormone replacement therapy.

Ruby [00:11:49]:
Okay. Thank you. Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:11:50]:
Which yeah. And I'd been having, like, really horrible hot flashes and stuff like that. So I went to the doctor. And I remember joking in the chemist once when I picked up my prescription. Oh, these are the magic pills. I don't know. I don't mean, as soon as I was diagnosed, I stopped taking it.

Ruby [00:12:08]:
Okay.

Tabbin Almond [00:12:10]:
And once I'd had my treatment, I was then put onto a drug which actually stops your body producing estrogen. Okay. So instead of putting more estrogen into my body, we were stopping any going in there at all.

Ruby [00:12:24]:
Yeah. I have one question, though. My obvious question is, like, why didn't they catch it with the mammogram?

Tabbin Almond [00:12:33]:
I asked that question, Ruby. Yeah. Yeah. Mammograms are the way they work, as I understand it, and I'm not a scientist, but they work on the density of the breast tissue. And nearly always, the density of a tumor will be different to the density of the rest of the breast tissue. Okay. But not always. And they think that there's somewhere between 5-8% that are where people are told there's nothing to worry about and there is.

Ruby [00:13:04]:
Mhmm. Okay.

Tabbin Almond [00:13:06]:
Even though our health system is creaking somewhat, it's not brilliant here at the moment, but actually the protocol is now different. Mhmm. If somebody was to go to the doctor with a lump today, they would have 2 things, 2 checks. So there would be a mammogram and either an MRI or an ultrasound Ultrasound. Or a CT. Yeah. Well, actually, they do 2 things.

Ruby [00:13:30]:
I well, I just came for mine.

Susan [00:13:31]:
I still have the little bracelet on because I literally just rolled in and I do an ultrasound every year because I have dense breast tissue. So here in the United States, they actually, order an ultrasound every time

Ruby [00:13:45]:
I had a mammogram. 

Tabbin Almond [00:13:47]:
That's brilliant. Yeah.

Ruby [00:13:48]:
And how often are you doing your mammogram? I think mine's every 3 years, something like that. How often? I do mine every year just because my grandmother died of breast cancer when

Susan [00:14:00]:
she was 60, so she was pretty young.

Ruby [00:14:03]:
So, yeah. Every time I go,

Susan [00:14:05]:
I get a little nervous because it's, you know..

Ruby [00:14:08]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:14:09]:
And I still go. And, yeah. There is a sort of slightly sick feeling. And because they do double checks, obviously, on me now. Yeah. And I go back into that same room where I got that news. And I always feel a bit nervous.

Ruby [00:14:25]:
Yeah. Totally understandable. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:14:28]:
Yeah. But I kind of think I saved my own life.

Susan [00:14:33]:
You did.

Ruby [00:14:34]:
I did. That's such an amazing story about listening to your intuition, which we women, we really need to do. I'm going to just say right now, if you haven't gotten a mammogram in a while, it's October, let's do it. Yes. Yeah. So And

Tabbin Almond [00:14:52]:
also just just do those checks. Feel for the lumps. Mhmm.

Ruby [00:14:56]:
Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:14:57]:
And if you aren't happy with what somebody's telling you, if you think that they're being a bit flip or they haven't really taken you seriously, stand up for yourself. Advocate for yourself. Because I mean, I was lucky my doctor was very receptive and stuff. But plenty of other people who don't know their doctors might not have had the same experience. And I know that I was really fortunate. We caught it just in time.

Ruby [00:15:23]:
Wonderful. 

Tabbin Almond [00:15:24]:
When they checked the lymph nodes, they tested 7. And it was in all the 7 they tested. But amazingly, it hadn't got further than the arm.

Ruby [00:15:37]:
So you went through treatment, and you, obviously you are here. You're fine. But, what about, like, alcohol on this journey? Yeah. Well,

Tabbin Almond [00:15:53]:
Nobody at any stage mentioned alcohol and breast cancer, there was any cause or correlation. That was never mentioned. And

Ruby [00:16:02]:
Fascinating. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:16:03]:
By the time I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I had been alcohol free for 7 years through hypnotherapy. And I I stayed alcohol free through you know, all through the breakup of the marriage and the financial problems and the initial diagnosis. Excuse me. It wasn't until I went back to the hospital after the initial surgery for them to sort of check everything and to be given the results of their lymph node test. That's when they said it was in all 7 in a really high count. We need to check wherever else it spreads to. And I suddenly at that point, very understandably, got very frightened. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:16:53]:
And I was terrified for my children because I thought their father, you know, at the time he was really mentally not very well at all. He'd disappeared off. He was in Australia and not really terribly much part of our lives. I thought, if I die, these portraits, I mean, they're only they were then 1921, you know. Mhmm. I can't die. And that's why I thought it was gonna happen, you know. So Thank goodness.

Tabbin Almond [00:17:18]:
I got very sick.

Ruby [00:17:19]:
That's scary.

Tabbin Almond [00:17:20]:
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And my reaction was booze. 


Ruby [00:17:25]:
Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:17:26]:
That's my coping mechanism. It had been for a long time. And even though I haven't drunk for 7 years, I I went back to it. Now I didn't know, that was in January, early February of that year. And I didn't drink very much for the rest of that year because I was having small surgery and then chemo and then radiotherapy. So I didn't drink a lot because during all that treatment, you'd feel pretty rubbish, to be honest. Mhmm. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:17:50]:
But once I was better and stronger and going out again, I just slipped straight back into how I'd been before the hypnotherapy, except lots of people thought I didn't drink anymore. So a lot of my drinking was actually on my own and secret, which I hated. I hated myself for that.

Ruby [00:18:14]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:18:14]:
But I couldn't seem to stop. And I got really kind of freaked out and panicked by it. I just thought, I've turned into my mother. I'm gonna die early. You know, I still didn't know about the connection between breast cancer and alcohol.

Ruby [00:18:29]:
That's mind blowing to me. Like, it's still mind blowing that they

Tabbin Almond [00:18:32]:
yeah. But Don't talk about it. It's extraordinary. And Yeah. I mean, I I speak to people. I saw somebody last week who's been very recently diagnosed. And I said, has anybody mentioned this as a matter of interest? And she said, no. Nobody.

Tabbin Almond [00:18:53]:
So it's like a conspiracy of silence, which I think is It

Susan [00:18:57]:
really is.

Tabbin Almond [00:18:57]:
Wrong. Yeah. And it's not just breast cancer. They're all the sort of throat, mouth, neck cancers. We know bowel cancer, pancreatic cancer. Alcohol's a contributor to all of

Ruby [00:19:08]:
them. How about all cancers?

Tabbin Almond [00:19:11]:
Well, yes. Yeah. But there is I think this the World Health Organization's, I think there are 6 or 7 where they say it's a direct cause. Now it's obviously not the only cause of

Ruby [00:19:22]:
Right.

Tabbin Almond [00:19:22]:
Any of these cancers, but it is a significant contributory factor. And

Ruby [00:19:27]:
It is.

Tabbin Almond [00:19:28]:
If it was mine or not. But, yeah, It's an unnecessary risk. And the really stupid thing is that I've kept it on my website because it's kind of educational, I think. But when I finished my radiotherapy on the last day of my treatment, a friend took me in and she bought a bottle of Prosecco. And we sat when we got home, we drank that Prosecco. She took a photo. There's me sitting on the sofa, bald with a scarf wrapped around my head, with a glass of Prosecco in my hand, as a way of celebrating the end of treatment for a disease where alcohol in all

Ruby [00:20:04]:
Could have been a factor. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:20:06]:
Mhmm. It was just mad. But you don't know what you don't know, do you?

Ruby [00:20:09]:
And you're not alone. I hear this all the time from my clients that have had different cancers, and then they celebrate because that's what we do. We celebrate with alcohol. It's culturally accepted, but we're getting wise. This alcohol free movement is trying to educate everyone. Yeah. Right now, we're educating people on breast cancer. So thank you.

Tabbin Almond [00:20:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I always want to share the story as well. Check. And if you are at all worried, get a second test. Don't rely on just one thing. Mammograms are great, and they save millions of lives a year, for sure. But if you think there's something that matters, don't just rely on a mammogram to be told you're not.

Tabbin Almond [00:20:50]:
There isn't anything that matters. Yeah.

Susan [00:20:52]:
Yeah.

Ruby [00:20:52]:
Well, I'm hoping to segue because I don't wanna miss, like, you becoming a coach and then writing this book. So would you like to share a little bit more about what happened after that? Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:21:05]:
Yeah. So I got alcohol free that last time through This Naked Mind.

Ruby [00:21:12]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:21:14]:
I floundered around, tried to do it all on my own and couldn't. I was just getting really down about it. And at some point, I googled, am I an alcoholic or something like that. Which, you know, my tip to anybody is if you are googling am I an alcoholic, then whatever an alcoholic is I don't know what it is. There's no clear definition. But if you're worried enough to be googling that, then you've probably got a degree of a problem with alcohol use disorder. So you might as well start to do something about it because it doesn't get better on its own.

Ruby [00:21:47]:
Very sound advice. Yes.

Tabbin Almond [00:21:51]:
And I came across This Naked Mind. And, I mean, you both know that once This Naked Mind has got your email address, they are not gonna hang up. And I was really glad. You know, I signed up for a course one morning. I was particularly hungover, and I just thought of anything to get me out of this hell. And I paid about £1,000, which I didn't really have. You know, I put it on a credit card and was just like, I just need to get this sorted. And then started panicking that I'd committed to some kind of crazy American woman or some loopy Californian cult.

Tabbin Almond [00:22:29]:
So I didn't know what I'd signed up for at all. But as a reserved Brit, it was like, what have you just done? It was honestly the best money I've ever spent. Mhmm. Because I was very quickly alcohol free. I read the book, started the course, and it just made so much sense. And I loved being aware that this wasn't my fault. That Mhmm. You know, I was just a human being who became addicted to an addictive substance.

Tabbin Almond [00:22:59]:
Yeah. No blame. No shame. That's just what happens. Yeah. And I then went in 2018. And in the autumn of 2018, there was a conference in Denver for This Naked Mind, which I went to. And I'm still friends with some of the people who I met there.

Tabbin Almond [00:23:21]:
In fact, one of them messaged me today on LinkedIn.

Ruby [00:23:24]:
That's amazing.

Tabbin Almond [00:23:25]:
Yeah. And, at that, Annie was talking about training people as coaches. And, I had a chat with her. And she said, I think you'd make a really good coach. And I was going and actually, I was embarrassed by what I said. Because I remember saying, I don't really want to make money out of other people's misfortune. Which is just like I don't know where that came from because I don't know what I thought doctors and vets and nurses do. But Right.

Tabbin Almond [00:23:56]:
If you're gonna make it, you've got to pay your mortgage. You must as well be Exactly. At the same time.

Ruby [00:24:01]:
Right.

Tabbin Almond [00:24:01]:
I also think I wasn't quite ready. I wasn't sure enough of my own sort of alcohol free status at that stage. But a year later, I was approached again. I thought, actually, I think I will investigate this. And so I talked to Scott, Scott Pinyard, who was then head coach at this Nicky band. I thought, yeah. I'm gonna do this. And, that's where I first met you, Ruby.

Ruby [00:24:28]:
I know. We were in the same coaching core cohort. We call it, like, a cohort. Yeah. Yeah. And you make friends for life when you I mean, I meet with Tabbin every single week. We do, like, kind of a book club with another coach, Lorna, who we love. And, yeah, it's really special.

Tabbin Almond [00:24:47]:
But all these best friends that I've never actually met in real life. One day we will. One day we will. Yes. So I trained as a coach, qualified, certified at the end of 2020. And my plan was to just coach part time alongside my job in advertising. So it was evenings and weekends, and then I started to take Fridays as a non working day. So I reduced my salary and so I and then, very sort of I love the way things come full circle.

Tabbin Almond [00:25:23]:
My mum died. I don't love that bit, but she left me some money. It wasn't a huge amount of money, but it was enough to give me the confidence to stop working in advertising and build up my own coaching business knowing that I had enough money in the bank to pay the mortgage for a few months if I needed to. Yeah. So I resigned from my job, and I've been coaching full time since the beginning of 2022. Yeah. Yeah. And I, my sort of niche, if if, you know, if you like, it is because I came from a sort of professional background, if you can call advertising professional.

Tabbin Almond [00:26:06]:
I'm not sure you can, but that sort of a background. So I've coached a lot of people who are quite senior in careers like advertising and marketing, the law, media, insurance. Sort of a lot of professions where there's a lot of entertainment. And realize that the workplace contributes a lot to people's problems. They probably already almost definitely were already drinking beforehand. Most people that go into those professions have been to university and would have been away and in that sort of culture of drinking because our universities are quite boozy. But some jobs you go to if you become a I don't know, a teacher for example, you're highly unlikely, hopefully, to drink at work or in connection with work very much.

Ruby [00:27:01]:
Maybe happy hours, you know? Teachers meet for yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:27:04]:
Yeah. I think possibly after work. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. But with all the marking and appearance, evenings, and all that sort of stuff, I I I mean, I say that. I mean, there are certain professions though where alcohol plays a big part. Right.

Tabbin Almond [00:27:18]:
And, and still does. It's not as bad as it was in the eighties, but it's still an issue.

Ruby [00:27:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:27:30]:
Yeah. And, and I just felt that if we can just change the culture in workplaces a bit there are lots of factors here. One is that there's a sort of inclusion thing going on. We are very racially diverse now in the UK, and it's there are lots of people who simply don't want to drink for cultural reasons

Ruby [00:28:03]:
Okay.

Tabbin Almond [00:28:03]:
Religious reasons.

Ruby [00:28:04]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:28:05]:
And we're making those people feel excluded.

Ruby [00:28:08]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:28:09]:
So if somebody says, you know, like a boss, they think they're being friendly and, you know, come on everybody, I'm buying who's coming to the pub after work this evening. This is a real example. You know, the young Muslim woman in that law firm, what does she do? She doesn't drink. She doesn't want to be around people who are drinking. But if she doesn't go to the pub, she's seen as standoffish, and she believes she's less likely to be one of the relatively small number who will get a permanent contract after the end of their training contract. So you're putting people in really difficult situations.

Ruby [00:28:48]:
Mhmm. That's a really good example.

Susan [00:28:49]:
Mhmm.

Ruby [00:28:50]:
Yeah. And you

Susan [00:28:51]:
don't have those friendly conversations that go on Yeah. You know, at the pub, etcetera. Yeah.

Ruby [00:28:56]:
Mhmm.

Susan [00:28:57]:
I mean, I had the same thing at my job. All of the people I worked with started going out to happy hours, but they left me out. Saw this email, invitation, and I'm

Ruby [00:29:06]:
like, oh, everyone's going to happy hour. And I realized

Susan [00:29:09]:
I didn't get the invitation because they knew I didn't drink.

Tabbin Almond [00:29:13]:
Yeah.

Susan [00:29:13]:
But at the same time, I was like, well, I could come. I don't just don't drink alcohol. I actually drink,

Ruby [00:29:19]:
you know, beverages. So, yeah, it's very

Susan [00:29:22]:
yeah. That was really I was, like, kind of put out by that that I wasn't even invited. So yeah. Yeah.

Ruby [00:29:29]:
And I was, in the wine industry, Tabin, and that's another industry that's I when you were talking about that golden mile, I mean, that's what it was like. We can't in the wine industry, the alcohol industry, you can have cabinets in your office with all kinds of alcohol and invite people to taste or drink or, so or lunches and especially dinners, always included. Yeah. It's definitely very boozy and as you can imagine in the wine industry. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:30:02]:
Yeah.

Ruby [00:30:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:30:04]:
Yeah. So I just felt that the pro alcohol culture in workplaces is problematic. And it's causing a lot of poor productivity Mhmm. Because people they're in 2 ways. And the book is about how it's called Bottling Up Trouble and how alcohol is harming your business and what to do about it. And the main ways it harms the business are, absenteeism

Ruby [00:30:39]:
Yes. Just

Tabbin Almond [00:30:40]:
not being at work because they've got a hangover, but it's very rare that anybody says it's a hangover because they it's, you know, that

Ruby [00:30:49]:
Yeah. They're just sick.

Tabbin Almond [00:30:51]:
Yeah. So they're sick. They've got a bug. They've got sickness and diarrhea, you know, whatever. They'll say something else rather than the truth because it's this you know, they just fear getting into trouble.

Ruby [00:31:02]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:31:02]:
Then you've also got the factor of presenteeism, where people are turning up but hungover. And they're not functioning properly.

Ruby [00:31:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. I was physically there, but my brain was foggy, for sure.

Tabbin Almond [00:31:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And sort of having to you know, getting into work a bit late, spending the first hour and a half just drinking coffee and thinking, I hope I'm not gonna puke, then making it through to lunchtime and eating badly and then just dying to get home, And often rinse and repeat. So that presenteeism affects people's productivity when they're at work. But it also affects the people who work with them. Mhmm. And some of them are having to cover for the person.

Tabbin Almond [00:31:46]:
Right. Remind the fact that when they're hungover, they may well make mistakes

Ruby [00:31:50]:
as well. Yes.

Tabbin Almond [00:31:51]:
So there's all of that.

Ruby [00:31:54]:
And I was less. I'm just picturing myself back in those days. I was very grumpy. Like, I had a low like, I remember just not being as kind, I think, overall. Yeah. And not

Tabbin Almond [00:32:07]:
For sure. Yeah. And that affects the mood in the workplace. And if you're a manager and you're very hungover and being short-tempered and unappreciative of people, that has a really damaging effect.

Ruby [00:32:22]:
On the whole team. Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:32:23]:
Yeah. So there are those sort of softer measures. There's also the mental health aspect because we know that alcohol is often used for stress to manage stress, but actually exacerbates it.

Ruby [00:32:41]:
Exactly.

Tabbin Almond [00:32:42]:
So it exacerbates stress and anxiety and depression, which are the 3 most common mental health complaints that people are off work for. Yeah. So we've got an explosion of mental health problems in this country. I don't know if it's the same in the States. And Yes. Indeed. Alcohol is playing a part, but it's not being quantified.

Ruby [00:33:03]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:33:03]:
But we know it is a factor. So that you know. And a lot of people will be sick. I did some work, earlier this year and last year with the police and spoke to police officers who were off sick, ostensibly for stress, but really for alcoholism. Wow. They call it. Yeah. Wow.

Tabbin Almond [00:33:27]:
But because they don't tell the truth because they can't because they'd get fired, they're not even getting the appropriate treatment. They're getting half a dozen counseling sessions for stress, and it's not stress.

Susan [00:33:37]:
And it's

Ruby [00:33:37]:
not stress. Yeah. Your book sounds amazing. Who is this book for? Is it for the owners of the company or the people, or is it for just everyone? I think it should be for everyone. Right?

Tabbin Almond [00:33:51]:
Yeah. Most importantly, it's highly relevant for business owners and for the HR and well-being team.

Ruby [00:33:59]:
Okay.

Tabbin Almond [00:33:59]:
Because those are the ones who can do something about it straight away. But, actually, what I've done is included within it a thing called the bottling up trouble assessment tool. Oh. So that is a whole it's a kind of a questionnaire that people can complete online, and they get a kind of instant report back. And it asks about things like the contract of employment and what happens if, you know, at parties and corporate gifts and a whole range of areas where alcohol may or may not be embedded in the culture. So the idea there is that employees can do that test and then open a conversation with the managers and the board level saying, do you know what? I think maybe we've got a bit of a problem. What would happen if we changed things here?

Ruby [00:34:52]:
I'm so glad you, like, did that, and created this assessment. This is really needed. Yeah. Yeah. When does oh, go ahead. Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:35:02]:
Yes. The other thing that I talk about a lot in the book is the role that we give alcohol for bonding. It's seen as the way to bring people together.

Ruby [00:35:14]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:35:14]:
And it's a way, but it's not the only way, and it's not necessarily the best way necessarily. And so just allowing people to have different ways to bond, do different things

Ruby [00:35:28]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:35:28]:
To get to know each other. And actually we're seeing quite an alarming trend at the moment where bosses are trying to get people to come back into the office after the pandemic when people have got very used to working from home. And there is a downside to that because people don't get to know each other very well. Mhmm. So the bosses are saying I know what. Let's get them all together and give them free drinks.

Ruby [00:35:51]:
Yep. I can see.

Tabbin Almond [00:35:53]:
And that will get them in, and that will get them bonding. You think, yes, it's not. Can we not come up with something a bit better? And it's going to be different things for different people. I've heard of all sorts of different ways that people can get teams together, but it doesn't have to be over alcohol.

Susan [00:36:11]:
Right. It's like this enticement. I saw an advertisement in the newspaper where there was a new physician's practice, and they were inviting an open house and they were gonna have a signature cocktail. I was like, what? A physician having a signature cocktail to entice people to come to their open house. I was just shocked.

Ruby [00:36:30]:
That's in the culture.

Susan [00:36:31]:
It's just in the culture. It's crazy. So what sort of resources and support systems can businesses provide to help employees reduce or eliminate alcohol consumption? Like, you know?

Tabbin Almond [00:36:47]:
I think that it starts with education. Yeah. And what I suggest to businesses is that that sort of whole area of alcohol use disorder, alcohol dependence is a huge taboo. Mhmm. Nobody talks about it.

Susan [00:37:06]:
Nobody wants to touch it.

Tabbin Almond [00:37:07]:
No. No. And so nobody fully understands the role of alcohol in stress, anxiety, and depression. So the first port of call is to just include some alcohol awareness within stress management and well-being courses.

Ruby [00:37:23]:
And and

Tabbin Almond [00:37:24]:
I call it the well-being conversation we're not having. I just there's a whole aspect to this that nobody's talking about, but it'll make a big difference.

Ruby [00:37:33]:
Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:37:34]:
So that's the start. And that won't change things for people who've already got a problem because they've already got a problem and they probably need a bit more help. But it will help to prevent, hopefully, prevent some people from getting into difficulty in the first place. Yeah. The second thing is to talk about it.

Ruby [00:37:56]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:37:56]:
And there's a real barrier there, which is that for a say for a manage managing director or chief exec to suddenly say, okay. I think everybody should have no more booze at work. They feel like a complete hypocrite because they will be the one who's been drinking.

Ruby [00:38:17]:
Right.

Tabbin Almond [00:38:17]:
Probably more than most. You know, senior senior people, it's all in expenses, etcetera. So we have to change the culture so that those leaders can say, I've had a bit of a problem with this myself. Because if they kind of out themselves, in inverted commas, then, and junior people see that that it's okay and that you can still go on and have a good career even if you have, at some stage, had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, then those junior people feel safe in asking for help. But as things are at the moment, I don't know that they are.

Tabbin Almond [00:38:59]:
I think I could get fired for this. And in the UK, you can be fired for having an alcohol addiction. I think it's different in the States.

Susan [00:39:07]:
It's to protect. I think it is a little different.

Ruby [00:39:09]:
It is. Mhmm. But it's still frowned upon. And it's still a stigma. Exactly.

Tabbin Almond [00:39:14]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ruby [00:39:15]:
Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:39:15]:
But here, you can actually be fired for it. So we have to change it. And, you know, I would love to see the law change so that it's not just a protected disability, like having stress and anxiety, or some mental health problems. Those are protected, but an addiction isn't. So but that's not gonna happen. Our government's got some bigger fish to fry, frankly. But we can change the culture so that and the law can follow, if you like. So it's Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:39:46]:
It's allowing and encouraging good strong leaders to say, yeah. This isn't this isn't good. This is what I was doing. This is what the rest of the board are doing. We are addressing this, and we want to offer help to anybody else who's struggling. And then to give people the support they need.

Ruby [00:40:04]:
Mhmm.

Tabbin Almond [00:40:05]:
Yeah. And I think also employers very often think, oh, we'll lay that off on the EAP or the occupational health team. And they don't really investigate what's being offered. And all too often, what's being offered isn't appropriate for people. Right. So they just need to make sure that people are getting help that's appropriate for them.

Ruby [00:40:27]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Tabin, you are doing such amazing work, and I'm so proud of you and your book. Thank you. And you are just radiating, and glowing, so I would love to transition to this like, We always ask all of our guests because, you know, our podcast is named Feel Lit Alcohol Free. So what do you do to feel it, Tabin, in your life? Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:40:52]:
I am a bit of an exercise junkie. Okay. I I love feeling fit and strong. Mhmm. So probably 5 days a week, I'm in the gym first thing in the morning, like 7 AM, doing a class, doing some strength and conditioning work, you know, a mixture of the two. I also absolutely love getting out for a walk. I've got a dog who's getting a bit old now. He doesn't like walking as much as I do.

Tabbin Almond [00:41:29]:
What? Yeah. He stops and sniffes or sniffs the grass a lot now. But, so I do get outside and just and I live in a very, very beautiful part of England. And I just love getting out on the moor and walking for 2, 3 hours. And I don't do that much during the working week because I'm working. But on weekends, that's what I love to do, just get out there Yeah. And be with friends. It's a really good way of catching up with people, and just, you know, get some exercise.

Ruby [00:42:00]:
I just love when you say, like, walking in the moor. It's like a Jane Eyre book. Yeah. And I'm like and then you say it with that accent. And, oh, I just love it. Well, it's been such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much. And for our listeners who would just wanna learn more about you and connect with you and and just where can when they find the book, you know, can you let us know? Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:42:23]:
Yeah. Well, they can find the book via my website. My business is called wine to water coaching.com.

Ruby [00:42:32]:
Okay.

Tabbin Almond [00:42:34]:
And the book is called Bottling Up Trouble. So you can Google actually, don't Google Bottling Up Trouble today. But by the time this goes out, it should be all linked up. Yes. But, so that the Bottling Up Trouble, will link into the website and you can order the book on Amazon or yeah. Okay. And it's available internationally as well. So Yeah.

Tabbin Almond [00:42:55]:
Yeah.

Ruby [00:42:56]:
So exciting. So exciting. I love

Susan [00:42:58]:
the name of your business too, wine to water.

Ruby [00:43:00]:
I know. So cool. Lover. Yes.

Tabbin Almond [00:43:03]:
Yeah. I don't know. I know it's a bit irreverent, but for me, that was the true miracle. It was going the other way.

Ruby [00:43:10]:
Yeah. 

Susan [00:43:11]:
I love that.

Ruby [00:43:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. So, again, this is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, and we had Tavanagh's our special guest with a very inspiring story. And just a reminder, go get your mammograms, ladies. Your mammogram. 100%. Alright. Thank you so much.

Ruby [00:43:29]:
Yeah. And, join our Feel It Facebook community as well. We'd love to see you in there. And we also are if you wanna see our faces, we are on YouTube. We have our YouTube channel. And thank you again, Tabin. Thank you.

Tabbin Almond [00:43:41]:
It's been a great pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Ruby [00:43:43]:
Okay. Thanks. Bye bye. 

Thanks so much for listening to the Feel Lit Alcohol Free Podcast. Do you have a question you'd like us to answer on the show? All you need to do is head over to Apple Podcasts and do 2 simple things. Leave a rating and review telling us what you think of the show. And in that review, ask us any questions you have about breaking free from wine or living an alcohol free lifestyle. That's it. Then tune in to hear your question answered live. Don't forget to grab your copy of a wine free weekend at www.feellitpodcast.com
And remember, do something today that will help you feel lit. See you next time!