280. What’s Missing From the “Emotional Eating” Conversation with Dr. Deborah MacNamara

Have you ever struggled with family dinners, comfort foods, or getting your kids to eat? Or do you feel like you should be working harder to change your own eating habits? If you answered yes, then this episode just might help you make life-changing connections that have been elusive for years.

In this conversation with parenting expert Dr. Deborah MacNamara, we explore how food connects to our deep need for belonging, why there’s no such thing as a “picky eater,” and the many ways we can heal our relationships with food, fullness, and needing other people.

We discuss:

• The difference between attachment and belonging
• What Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is missing
• How to focus on receptivity in relationships with our kids
• Why food is often the place our relationship dynamics play out
• The surprising connection between food, fullness, and vulnerability
• Self-soothing vs satiation
• Why feelings are different than emotions
• The problematic invasiveness of “work mode”
• Experimenting with being “needy” so we can learn to depend on others

 
More about our guest: Dr. Deborah MacNamara is the author of two books, Nourished: Connection, food and caring for our kids (and everyone else we love), and Rest, Play, Grow: Making sense of preschoolers (or anyone who acts like one). She is on Faculty at the Neufeld Institute and the Director of Kid’s Best Bet counselling.

 
Connect with Deborah:

• Website
• Books
• Facebook
• Instagram

 
Mentioned in this episode:

• Dr. Gordon Neufeld & Dr. Gabor Maté
• The Religion of Wellness Culture with Anne Helen Petersen (Episode 252)

Connect with Ali & Insatiable:

Transcript

Ali Shapiro [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Insatiable, the podcast where we discuss the intersection of food, psychology, and culture. That's a perfect recipe for addiction because anything that soothes that doesn't satiate sets you up for a repetitive pattern. There's nothing as addictive as something that almost works. I'm your host, Allie Shapiro, an integrated health coach, 32 year and counting cancer survivor, and have radically healed my relationship with food and my body. And for the past 17 years, I've been working with clients individually, in group programs, and in company settings to do the same. Welcome. The information in this podcast should not be considered personal, individual, or medical advice. Hello, insatiable listeners.

Ali Shapiro [00:01:01]:
You are in for a treat today, especially if the themes of food as attachment and belonging that we often discuss on the show resonate with you. This episode just might enable you to make life changing connections that have been elusive for years. And if you know me, you know, I don't overpromise. So I really think this episode can change a lot of lives. And if you're new to insatiable, know that belonging is the invisible string that when it gets cut daily in our lives or on the weekends or at night when we often tend to overeat or when we're stress eating, this is when you fall off track with your food. And that will make a lot more sense after you listen to this episode. I'm still sitting with a lot from this episode and I'm really familiar with this concept since my life's work is about it. And I love Deborah's work.

Ali Shapiro [00:01:56]:
I've been a fan for years and I'm really sitting with Deborah's explanation around our judgments on dependence and being dependent on someone. Right. Like even think about what does that bring up in you and how that judgment, those reactions to needing other people, how that really leads to not only trying to go at figuring out our food stuff all alone, but is also at the root of so many of our food issues. I'm also sitting with how Deborah thinks we shouldn't make food about health, especially for our kids. She brought up some good points that I get and I'm also holding the and that the food our kids eat if we don't watch out, tends to be unhealthy. And there's some biological set points that are happening as our kids are growing. But Deborah gave me some some ideas around that. And the other thing that I'm thinking about and that I'd hope that you pay attention to is how Deborah talks about a key layer of belonging, which is significance.

Ali Shapiro [00:03:02]:
And I think we're cultured, especially as women, to think our significance can be found in thinness or looking amazing in clothes. And that can feel great, and it's not gonna meet the deeper significant needs we have that needs satiated. And this can really, when you get this, can really relax the pressure around weight loss so that you can actually enjoy the process and do it in a sustainable way. So with that, I want to tell you more about Deborah and then onto the show. But before that, I want you to know if you love what you heard in this interview, in this episode and think, oh, wow, this makes so much sense. Now that you say this, I can't unsee it. How do I apply this to my life and own eating? Come join us in my live. Why am I eating this now group program that opens for registration in September.

Ali Shapiro [00:03:57]:
We're gonna take these big theoretical themes and make them practical and tactical for us as adults. Okay? And if you want a free sneak peek of this course, which is 12 weeks, we start in September. We end right before the holidays. And you're gonna get a sense of belonging in the community that is attracted to this work and that I create is unparalleled. People tell me it's a life changing community because you actually have the safety to work through this stuff. But if you want to get a free sneak peek, come to my free master class on September 12th. The master class is untangle your food triggers, catch yourself before you fall off track. And that will be Tuesday, September 10th at 12 pm Eastern Standard Time.

Ali Shapiro [00:04:43]:
There'll be a link in the show notes to sign up. Come join us. This is an incredible program. You will not be the same, either will your food at the end of it. Okay. Now onto the show. Doctor. Deborah McNamara is the author of 2 books, Nourished Connection Food and Caring for Our Kids and Everyone Else We Love.

Ali Shapiro [00:05:05]:
And that's what we're gonna talk about today. And rest, play, grow, making sense of preschoolers or anyone who acts like one. It's one of the few parenting books I've read and it's really the only one I needed to read because Deborah gets it. She is on faculty at the Newfield Institute and the director of Kids Best Bet Counseling. Enjoy Deborah's brilliance. And I can't wait to hear about the connections that are made for you in your life, for your kids and your own eating and the kid you once were. Alright. Onto the show.

Ali Shapiro [00:05:41]:
Doctor McNamara, I am so grateful that you are here. I found you via your book, Rest, Play, Grow. It's really the only parenting book I've read. And when I got to the end of reading it, I was like, oh, if everyone was parented this way, we wouldn't have emotional eating issues. And then a few years later, now you've come out with the book Nourished Connection, Food, and Caring for Our Kids and Everyone Else We Love, which took your developmental psychology lens and decades of experience as a therapist and laid it over with food and attachment. And here we are. So you have just been so influential in me being able to have better language for my own work and filling in some gaps that I always wondered about. So I'm just so honored to have you here.

Deborah MacNamara [00:06:31]:
Thank you, Ally. That's very kind of you, and I'm delighted to be joining you.

Ali Shapiro [00:06:34]:
So first, I just wanna tell everyone, get the book. It is so rich. It is so meaningful. All of the people I've recommended it to who follow-up with me say they've had such amazing insights. So we're gonna go a little bit deeper today. And so what led you to write this book Nourished? I wanna start there.

Deborah MacNamara [00:06:51]:
Well, it was partly because as a parent, I was struggling with my own daughter who was two and a half, three years of age, who had become very picky. Oh, I wouldn't use that term now, but picky in her eating. Selective, I couldn't feed her. And I realized I got alarmed. I was very frustrated, but then I got very alarmed because I realized I'm creating a relationship issue here by constantly pushing her her resistance back, not understanding what was not working in our relationship, around food in particular. Everything else seemed to be okay, but the food stuff, we were going backwards. And so I sought out the help of my mentor, my supervisor, doctor Gordon Neufeld at the time. And he gave quite a cheeky answer and really wouldn't answer it because it was about something that was missing inside of me that I needed to see and I needed to find.

Deborah MacNamara [00:07:40]:
And so the book is really an endeavor to do that. I don't think he really thought I would go out and write a book about it, but would probably come back into our next supervisory session with some thoughts about it. But, anyway so the book unfolded from there. But it was also something that when I had insight into, I began to see everywhere that there was something missing in our dialogue and our understanding around food and relationships that had become all about the food. It become very behavioral, very learning based that we had lost the essence of, I think, what have a lot of food ways and food culture delivered to us, which is food belongs in relationship to each other, and that had gone missing. And then just working in private practice as a counselor and just seeing that relationship issues usually had food issues. Food issues could cause relationship issues. And so what was this all about, and why didn't we have language for it? And what is it that I was trying to to see? And so Nourished is essentially the answer to that.

Ali Shapiro [00:08:36]:
I feel like you've really given language to that invisible thread of attachment and belonging that follows us around. And I love that you said it is so missing in the conversation today because as I have a son who's he'll be almost 5. And I given my own health history and stuff like that, I am very mindful of, you know, what foods I wanna feed him and all that stuff. And we'll get to later how your book has got me thinking of what I need to work on. But there's a lot of, like, again, camps of, like, don't restrict food, restrict food. You're gonna give people, you know, dieting issues and all this stuff. And I'm like, oh, we're missing the, like, bigger underlying issue of it's not about what's in the house, what's out of the house, what you allow, whatnot. It is what you're saying.

Ali Shapiro [00:09:18]:
It's the relationship is really foundational. And once we get that right, a lot of things, I think, can clear themselves out. So before we do that, that behavioral approach to food and really children in general and ourselves, I would say as adults, My work is rooted in developmental psychology, but I address more the adult end of things. However, obviously, childhood has an impact on that. And your work is rooted in developmental psychology and the childhood years. Can you explain what developmental psychology is and why it matters for children and who we were as a child? Why that relationship piece that you talk about matters?

Deborah MacNamara [00:09:55]:
So as a developmentalist, my primary objective is to understand how we create the conditions for people to grow, whether that's a baby, a toddler, middle aged child, to a teenager, to us as adults, to even going into elderhood. How is it that we create the conditions for our growth and development? And what we know through all of our science, through practice, through just general understanding of yourself as a human being, is that we need relationships. And not just any kind of relationships. We need the kind of relationships where we can cascade in our care, meaning that we can look to someone to take care of us and be dependent upon and feel safety in that dependence, that we also show up to take care of other people and provide that safety, independence so that you can count on, that you can trust, that they will take care of you the best way they can possible. It's this cascading of care of relationships that all of us need from our elders on down to babies. Just how we embed ourselves in that. How do we create those conditions so we can grow? We can thrive. We can be resilient.

Deborah MacNamara [00:10:59]:
We can be resourceful. We can become our own best selves. We can be social. We can be compassionate. We can have empathy. Like, that's what human potential looks like at the end of the day is all of those things.

Ali Shapiro [00:11:10]:
I love what you're bringing up because I think I know you're Canadian, but you know North American culture well. I don't think we're versed in paradox or tension of opposite. So it's this idea that if you have safety, you can then take risks and that you need both, right, to to thrive. Is that's what I'm hearing. Is that correct?

Deborah MacNamara [00:11:29]:
Absolutely. I mean, I think if you look in nature, there's examples of this everywhere from a tree that is deeply rooted, can grow and have wonderful potential. A seed that has the right fertile conditions can grow the most robust. And so we only need to look to nature to say this is the developmental agenda. Nature is all around us as showing us that this is exactly how we grow and how we thrive.

Ali Shapiro [00:11:51]:
And so this all rests on attachment and belonging. Right? And this is what your book and and all of your work rests on. And I appreciate this so much because my work is rooted and people realizing that their belonging probably rested a lot on being the good girl or the good boy. Right? Based on social conditioning. But can you tell us tell me how you think of attachment belonging and how they're different?

Deborah MacNamara [00:12:16]:
Yeah. Attachment is the drive to pursue and preserve connection. And that can go to many different things. So I can go to you can be attached to many things and people, the earth, your car keys, your favorite cat or dog, to each other. Belonging is one way that we stay close to each other. It's a very powerful way, a sense of mattering, a sense of knowing your people. Who are you people? Who would you trust? You would then have shyness around people that you don't trust and because belonging forms a bit of a circle around you and forms that exclusivity. But there are other forms of attachment as well in terms of how we seek to keep close.

Deborah MacNamara [00:12:57]:
We copy. We imitate people. We physically touch or be near. We share our secrets. We have deep feelings of love and caring, and we seek to be significant, to those people. And so these are all manifestations of different degrees attachment. But attachment is the underlying instinct, and, the way that it it expresses itself is through belonging, sameness, significance, and so on.

Ali Shapiro [00:13:22]:
And I love how in your book, you talk about the brain prioritizes attachment. You have a chapter on Maslow and his hierarchy of needs. And and I understand that he got inspired from the Blackfoot tribe, I believe, is their name in Canada. But I was thinking about just the pyramid itself as like, is this hierarchy or is this just how we see the world? Because culturally, we put people in hierarchies. But you bring up about Maslow had belonging as 3rd and primary needs as, you know, food, shelter, water. Can you talk about how he got that wrong or incomplete?

Deborah MacNamara [00:13:57]:
It was, I mean, 1943. So we have to realize, we we continue to go around talking about Maslow as if he had, you know, some secret to the universe in 1943. What he was actually reflecting was North American values and beliefs in 1943, which was essentially that our primary needs came first. Well, he called them primary needs. They're not in my book primary needs. Food, oxygen. Now, of course, the body needs those things to survive, but we know that the gut doesn't even work to process, food all that well. And there can be huge, issues physically if we are without relationship.

Deborah MacNamara [00:14:34]:
And so loneliness kills. Pain is greater. You know, enjoyment, engagement in life is diminished. So what Maslow missed, and perhaps, you know, I was led to conclude that part of that, why he missed this, was that he himself was a very traumatized child. He actually in in the, records on him, his parents, he had horrible relationships with both of them in the sense that they were very cruel to him. And so I could see that in terms of the context of his own upbringing, he might have had food and, you know, oxygen, place to live, but he didn't actually have love and care. That was grossly missing in his world. And so did he create a hierarchy out of his own psychology? I think you could argue that.

Deborah MacNamara [00:15:17]:
Did he create a hierarchy out of the North American values around him, which was the epitome that, you know, you are your own self, self care, self actualization, which wouldn't fit with the Blackfoot Siksika worldview, indigenous worldview, which is where you become mature and then you contribute back to your society and your community. And when you are mature, you are a community caretaker. So he missed all sorts of things, but he really reflected the ethos of the time, which was individualism, self care, self reliance, you know, push yourself out there to be your your best person, and he completely eclipsed relationship. He completely put belonging down the line. It is from this place of belonging, of attachment, of being rooted that we actually grow. And there isn't neuroscience effective neuroscience developmentalist attachment researchers. Nobody would agree with that view anymore. There's more than enough and ample enough research from orphanage studies to neuroscience to say, no.

Deborah MacNamara [00:16:16]:
The brain is actually hardwired and organized around, attachment and the human connection.

Ali Shapiro [00:16:22]:
I love that you brought that up. That was so I was like, oh my god. There's so many reasons I disagree with this pyramid now. Like because I think it kinda should be a circle, but that's like a whole other conversation. But yeah. And you're and you're very gracious in the book talking about, like, he didn't have the benefit of neuroscience, which you just alluded to that. But I wanna highlight that that we can now see scientifically what indigenous cultures, you know, have been have known, I guess, instinctively. That attachment is so important.

Ali Shapiro [00:16:50]:
And I think that's so important because for people listening, whether you're you're going through your Instagram feed with parenting advice or you're an adult, right, who you go to the doctor and you're having digestive issues or you wanna get healthy, it's like, okay. Diet and exercise. Diet and exercise. And it's like, why is belonging an attachment? Like, no one's giving you a prescription pad where it says, work on your attachment. Right? Or, you know, or or parents who don't wanna pass, like, they're eating stuff onto their kids. Right? It's like, should I do this? Should I do do not do that? Versus saying, like, well, actually, the root of that is attachment with them and maintaining that connection instead of worrying about such specifics around habits, I guess. So I just love that you included that in the book.

Deborah MacNamara [00:17:36]:
Thank you. And it's it's also about repair too, you know, because relationships are difficult. And we do get on each other's nerves, and we do have lots of frustration and alarm. And so part of the research on longevity shows over and over again, it's actually how you maintain your relationships, how you get through hard times together, how you resolve them, that these are actually quite critical, that it's not just about building them, it's also preserving them.

Ali Shapiro [00:18:02]:
Yes. Yes. I'm glad that you brought repair because we have a lot of perfectionists who listen to this. So it's like, oh my god. If I didn't get this already. It's like, no. There's so much magic in repair and saying like, oh, can we do this again? So I wanna kinda circle back to your daughter, but also to this bigger piece of what you said you wouldn't use picky eating anymore. Because I do have a lot of clients even as adults.

Ali Shapiro [00:18:23]:
Right? I don't work with children and but they will. You talk about eating habits in children as a window into our receptivity of care. And so rather than focusing on if someone's a picky eater or they're hiding food. I have a neighbor who has taken in her brother's children after he passed away and the one is hiding food. You know? And I was like, you gotta read this book. You gotta read this book. And so can you can you talk about that? It's not about the habits and and per se or the the food choices, but it's the overall what's underneath that's going on. Can you talk about that receptivity of care?

Deborah MacNamara [00:18:59]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, receptivity is such a beautiful word. So it's like, why is this child not receptive to what I have to offer? And then, of course, we're gonna look through 3 different lens, which are contrary to a behavioral one, which focuses on what do I do? How do I make this child eat? What do I you know, what consequence, threat, bribe, punishment, you know, talking to do I need to give this child? That's that's a behavioral lens. That's an outcome driven, how do I do this? How do I change the child? When you ask a different question, which is what is how do I help this child become more receptive to what I have to offer? There are 3 different lenses that I would look through. Number 1 is a developmental lens. So the age stage of a child and what they're going through or an adult and you know, and it could include physiological issues and genetic issues or allergies or, you know, different abilities to chew and swallow. So you're looking developmentally.

Deborah MacNamara [00:19:52]:
The other lens is one of relationship. Who am I to this child? Who do they see me as? So it's not just through our eyes. It's, you know, is the child receptive to us? We may love and want and desire to take care of someone, but they may not yet be ours. Like, you know, a child who moves into somebody's home after a loss or a foster care or adopt situation, That child may not be that person's yet even though there's lots of love there to give. And so what is happening here relationship you know, in the relationship and receptivity? And it might not have anything to do with what you're offering. It might be something inside the child. And and and that is about our emotions. Our emotions are all over the place.

Deborah MacNamara [00:20:30]:
You know, they always say and I wish I'd gone more on this in the book, is you know, they say, oh, don't be an emotional eater. That there's there's only one kind of eating in it. Our emotions are always going to be part of eating. Eating was meant to bring pleasure. The problem is is it doesn't always bring pleasure, and that's the more interesting question. How do we set it up so that food can do its intended work, which is to bring pleasure and to be part of this beautiful cascading care relationship? So if a child isn't receptive, if my daughter, I'm labeling picky, but I didn't see is developmentally, she was a very sense she had a very sensitive chemical sensing system. She tastes, touch, smell were quite strong, and I was in a hurry. And I was pushing because I was thinking that the way through was to, you know, just come on and eat just like your sister did.

Deborah MacNamara [00:21:16]:
It's not that bad. But I wasn't paying attention to her needs. And, emotionally, that created all sorts of resistance and opposition. If I'd been patient, if I'd given her more time to play with her food, you know, get to introduce it through relationship of us eating it and watching us eat it and us enjoy it and be around it enough so that she could find her own way with it and not be in such a hurry and not be so pushy. I believe this would have resolved itself because she had a bias to eat. She had a bias to explore. She did wanna take from me. And so, it was my hurrying that made a mess of it.

Deborah MacNamara [00:21:52]:
With a child who isn't settled into your care yet, this is very common with a hoarding of food. This is a relational and an emotional issue. You know, they hoard food underneath the bed. Food has become a substitute for making yourself feel safe. The food has the safety rather than the relationship. And so, you know, they hoard on in a depersonalized way to the food as if this will be the answer. It's kind of primal. It's about self care.

Deborah MacNamara [00:22:15]:
It's about not leaning into the care that's offered to you for reasons of alarm, frustration, loss, sadness. There can be lots of stuff going on for that child. It doesn't mean that what you're offering isn't good. It just means that for this child, they're in a position where it might take some time for them to accept it. So what do you need to do to keep holding on until the receptivity is there? What do you need to work at? How do you create those conditions? Everybody that work in the foster care system says they know when their children are starting to settle in, when they start to stay in the kitchen a little bit longer, they start to talk a little bit longer. They might start to eat some of the food that everybody else is eating, maybe not altogether, but they just start to stay and linger a little bit longer until they might eventually come to the table and eat with everybody. And they know that the child is truly, come to the table and eat with everybody, and they know that the child has truly come home. So just be patient.

Deborah MacNamara [00:23:02]:
And remember, food plays out so much of our relationship and so many of our emotions because it's visible and relationship and emotions are invisible. So a lot gets attached to this, and then we focus on the food, and then we end up in in hard times potentially.

Ali Shapiro [00:23:25]:
And can we even maybe back up? And you talk about this in the book of why food and attachment and belonging. Right? There's more to it that you explain in in your book. So, yeah, why not, you know I'm I'm thinking my son's, like, really into monster trucks. Not why not hiding monster trucks right now? You know what I mean? Like, why is it food that is where all of these relational and emotional issues become an outlet for? Why food?

Deborah MacNamara [00:23:51]:
Well, I think partly is because it it represents caretaking at a very primal level. It's the place we start in utero. It's about relationship and food. They come together unbeknownst to us before we have words, before we're fully formed. You know, that invitation to exist, you know, encased in this beautiful attachment womb is our unfolding. It's primal. We have to do it many times a day, so it's a repeated opportunity to convey the nature of our relationship. So it's easy to get attached to that.

Deborah MacNamara [00:24:24]:
It's so close to survival. We can't survive without, you know, food and and nurturance this way, nor can we for love. And so everything gets tied together, and so it becomes a perfect replacement. It becomes a perfect place to self soothe. But food needs to be served in the context of togetherness and not when we're under emotional distress because that's when it starts to take a really different turn. So no. This was a primal pairing in nature's hardwiring of us. It's primal.

Ali Shapiro [00:24:55]:
Yeah. I love it. I think you say it's an exquisite design. I think it's what that way you used in your book. And again, in the work that I do with my clients, like, I often find that it's not the food habit of, like, you know, oh, all my health goals go out the window when I'm socializing. Or why am I, you know, when I'm struggling with my family, why am I going into the cupboard alone and eating? And it's like, it's not about should you have food in the house? Should you not? It's like, what are the you know, like all these rules that get put on that on food of, like, take 10 breaths. It's like, oh, well, that could help the 10 breaths. And though, it's these underlying emotional needs that aren't being met.

Ali Shapiro [00:25:34]:
And you also say in the book that food stimulates attachment chemicals. Can you can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that's huge.

Deborah MacNamara [00:25:42]:
Yeah. Well, eating is vulnerable. I mean, you're basically taking something into the body that can hurt you physically and also represents caretaking. So it's about trust. And the body is wired up so that what you take in should bring pleasure. So we have opioids in our saliva, in our gastrointestinal tract. It is basically skin. Skin that went we have skin that went outside.

Deborah MacNamara [00:26:06]:
Embryonic skin went outside, and there's some skin that went inside that formed the gastro tract. So we have oxytocin receptors. We've got the largest amount of serotonin in our gut. 95% of the serotonin, the feel good chemicals in our gut. So nature wired this up so that it would go together and bring pleasure. And that would be connected to who you were with. It'd be connected to food. It would help release some of the vulnerability around the the eating and the challenges that that might bring.

Deborah MacNamara [00:26:34]:
So we can abuse food, though, to make us feel good. You know? You could I think it was Robert Sapolsky said, you know, why is it when nobody loves us, we eat, Oreo cookies? Yes. Because the body has a way of making that feel good and and get a a lift emotionally. But what do we really need if nobody loves us? What do we actually really need most of all? Maybe a hug from someone who does, or we need to have our tears about all the things that we can't change, the lacks and the losses. And so what do we do? Food becomes a perfect recipe and a substitute to press down on those sad feelings and bring pleasure. And that that is the trick with food that we find very early on is that it does and it can bring pleasure, and it can get rid of some of those hard feelings that that might be there and the sad ones that might be there. But I'd say have a good cry first and then get to the eating business after.

Ali Shapiro [00:27:29]:
Well, you say I think this is so important because in my group that is wrapping up right now, there are a lot of people have, like, finally felt like it's okay to cry. And and I was like, in Nevra's book, she talks about tears are the healing. Right? They're not the problem. They're the sign that you're resting in your vulnerability. They're not the problem. They're great.

Deborah MacNamara [00:27:48]:
And they're hard. You know, they're hard to get to sometimes. And but we have to feel empty until we can feel full. And that's the order that it's meant to come in. And we're trying to bypass the emptiness.

Ali Shapiro [00:28:00]:
Yes. I gotta take that in. I gotta digest that food. Well and you say that food is supposed to follow attachment, not be a substitute for it. And I think that relays that belonging. And I and I wanna read this. I I was preparing for an interview, and I wanted to read this passage. And I I was having a really emotional week last week.

Ali Shapiro [00:28:20]:
Again, I don't even know why. But this kind of speaks to what you were talking about. In terms of to feel full, we need to feel empty, but you're talking about that satiation. You say, the dance of satiation is the ultimate answer to human vulnerability. We can all be wounded, face lack and loss, and feel unsafe. We cannot make ourselves feel secure, but we are meant to be blinded from this existential truth through our togetherness. When we look to another person for caretaking, to depend upon them or to be their caretaker, we can find rest from our our vulnerable condition. If just for a little while, we all need places and people where we feel safe so we can be released from our incessant hunger for connection and food.

Ali Shapiro [00:29:07]:
In such places, we gather and feel our thoughts and emotions. Nature's design is exquisite. We cannot tolerate or feel how vulnerable we really are without having the anecdote right in front of us. Strong, safe, caring connections with others. We are meant to seek togetherness when in need, and it is this neediness that saves us. I can feel the vulnerability in

Deborah MacNamara [00:29:33]:
that. Yeah. And it's so hard that dance.

Ali Shapiro [00:29:36]:
It is. Why? It's part of the individualism, right? You think you're weak if you need others or you need support. And at least with that, that's basically with my clients.

Deborah MacNamara [00:29:45]:
I would agree culturally that we are not pointing in this direction. It is about self reliance. So there is that stigma that comes from having vulnerable feelings and feeling that we are not okay. And the idea of having someone to turn to in today's configurations of family, like, we've got the smallest families. We are so separate from each other. We've just been through a pandemic where togetherness was the threat. You know, have competing attachments with workloads and, you know, financial issues and worries, you know, systemic worries, poverty. And and so, like, we are a culture built upon separation.

Deborah MacNamara [00:30:30]:
And that becomes you know, how do you possibly feel all of that? How many people in North America come from their own ancestors who had to flee their countries for war or poverty or famine? And so, you know, we have generations and generations of of stories. And yet we are in a time where we have the smallest groupings of people. You know how many people eat on their own?

Ali Shapiro [00:30:57]:
A lot of my clients. Yes. I know.

Deborah MacNamara [00:31:00]:
We say, you know, togetherness is the answer, but look at what we do culturally. We don't live that out loud. You know? That isn't most people's experience. You know? Working from home now, working on their own, self employed, small nuclear families, kids leave homes, divorce and separation, pandemic hit, separation, separation, separation, separation. So getting to this place of vulnerability that we feel safe in the caring context of our relationships, we kinda get back into relationship to get to that. That's the whole point.

Ali Shapiro [00:31:35]:
Part of what you're underlying in your book is being in relationship is vulnerable. And yet I think for some of my clients listening, I'm thinking or people listening, but I'm thinking of client examples. They often will eat things that like for my one client, she was like, I go out with my friends and she thinks she's in relationship, but she's like, I just eat whatever they're having and then I can't sleep. Right? All of us in menopause. It's like, oh my god. You know, it's like, yeah, I don't I can't drink this. I can't eat this. Like, for me, I'm like, I need to make sure my blood sugar is balanced.

Ali Shapiro [00:32:07]:
I'm gonna be up at 3 AM, you know, because of this whole thing. But she thinks she's in relationship. Right? And what we I helped her to coach her to see is, like, oh, there's a sense of inadequacy that I that gets triggered. And what it's really about is I feel I need to be on. So even though I'm with other people, the way the only way I'm finding that connection is through ordering the same things, being low maintenance, being the fun one who just goes with the flow. So can you expand upon that what you mean by really being in relationship instead of what's that that versus the difference of just being around other people?

Deborah MacNamara [00:32:42]:
Yeah. Well, this is a great question. I mean, this is about vulnerability. And so, you know, the the least vulnerable way of being together is just physically being beside each other. When you are the same as someone, not that vulnerable, it's it's probably the the place that we can connect with most people is to find some sameness between us. When you start talking about belonging, you you've got some inclusion happening there and exclusion. So that becomes a little bit more vulnerable. Then when you want to matter or to be seen by somebody and you reveal part of yourself, this is where things get a little bit tricky, when your heart gets on the line a little bit more.

Deborah MacNamara [00:33:19]:
When you share who you are, the worry is is if I share who I am, are they still gonna be there at the end of the day if they truly see me for my thoughts and feelings that may be different from theirs that they may not approve of? Are we able are we going to be able to hold on? Is there still gonna be an invitation in that person for me? That's where it gets to vulnerable territory. I think Carl Jung said one of the most courageous things we could ever do is to be ourselves in the face of, you know, separation because that's essentially what's happening. And, you know, both Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate, as you know, who I've worked with, is you know, they have different ways of expressing this. Gabor says, you know, it's attachment or authenticity. Gordon Neufeld says it's about the 2 invitations we need. We need an invitation for relationship from somebody, and we need an invitation for personhood. But sometimes being your per your own self can conflict with that relationship. And parents find this all the time.

Deborah MacNamara [00:34:14]:
You'll you know, my clients will tell me they they feel the limits to the invitation that their parent has given. No. You're not gonna be the same religion as me. For a parent, that might be just devastating and or you're gonna pursue that as a career or you're not gonna have children or whatever the difference might be. To be your own self that flies in the face of potential rejection from those you love is terrifying for the human heart if you can feel your feelings vulnerably. So a strong, intimate, vulnerable relationship would have faith that I can reveal myself to some degree here and believe that you will still have an invitation for me and or that whatever got between us, there would be trust that we could get through it. And that's why if you've ever had a fight with somebody and you've got been able to get through it, you're like, actually, there's more trust in this relationship now.

Ali Shapiro [00:35:13]:
Oh, that was such a beautiful I love because there is layers right to vulnerability. It's not like you're vulnerable or not. It's like, you know, again, because a lot of people who listen, they're struggling with all or nothing. They think like, oh, I have to bear my whole soul. And it's like, no, you can take manageable risks in, like, how does this person respond? How does it not? How do they not? Versus you're just like, okay. Here's my deepest, darkest secret. You know? I don't I mean, I can't even imagine what that would be for me. But you know what I mean? There's there's you don't have to be super vulnerable all at once, I guess.

Ali Shapiro [00:35:45]:
But I think choosing your like, what's gonna feel good for your food, right, is like such a safe risk and a manageable risk until maybe you can get to those deeper ones. But if we're so focused on, okay, look at the menu before you go out to eat and, you know, decide what you're gonna eat. Like, those kind of tricks are which a lot of my clients come to me. They're like, I tried all that. And I'm like, but it's not about what's on the menu. You know what I mean?

Deborah MacNamara [00:36:10]:
It's about your feelings and being in that place and with those people and what comes up for you and and, what would it mean to be seen by these people? And and how do you feel about yourself when you look in their eyes? And it's, you know, human relationships are are much more complex than we give it credit for. And I don't know if we're meant to look at them so directly.

Ali Shapiro [00:36:30]:
Yeah. Well, I've been thinking a lot about your book gave me talking about for people to understand, like, their level of vulnerability. Like, Like, can you feel like you can rest in someone's care? And that helped give me so much language because people I mean, I think I'm a good facilitator. I think the work that I'm doing is, you know, people are able to make connections they can't make other places. But you gave me language to realize why people feel the group is so life changing. I hear that all the time about my group. I was this group is life changing. And it's like, oh, this is a space where you can experiment with, quote unquote, being needy.

Ali Shapiro [00:37:02]:
Right? Like, you know, saying, I don't get this right away or, oh, you too. And I think people have to your point earlier, like we're such a culture of separation. People don't have space to practice that vulnerable neediness. Right? So do you have any recommendations or ideas of how people can start to just and I'm saying neediness in quotes because you're not really being needy, like, needy. You know, you're just being human that has needs, but we call it neediness.

Deborah MacNamara [00:37:30]:
Yeah. And here is the cultural problem. Right? We are allergic to dependence. We make our children grow up a lot faster than they should. What do you want? We ask them far too many questions. We put them in charge of things they shouldn't be in charge of because there's this belief we gotta push them to become grown grown up human beings, and we gotta do that as fast as possible. And the faster you get there, then somehow this is better. No.

Deborah MacNamara [00:37:54]:
You can push them right out of your nest and grow up too fast. And so North America is allergic to dependence. It's even said that John Bowlby, who was sort of the father of attachment or put attachment science on the map, was very thoughtful and careful about how he portrayed attachment from this place of it's about dependence because it was so antithetical to British, North American mindsets. There's something wrong about being dependent. That doesn't fit with any indigenous belief system around the world. It's all about interdependence. It's all about dependence. You don't say to a tree, don't have any roots because you gotta get ready to move and take care of yourself.

Deborah MacNamara [00:38:38]:
You say, how do we get the biggest, deepest roots so that the tree can bend and have, flexibility is is is incredibly, you know, resilient in the face of strong, you know, challenges. Why? Because it's deeply rooted. So North American culture does not have a doctrine of dependence. It has a doctrine of independence. Hurry up. Get going. How fast can we get there? The faster, the better. Piaget said that, and it's been a pretty steadfast reflection on our our culture.

Deborah MacNamara [00:39:09]:
And it serves particular agendas, which we don't need to get into, but are obvious. You know, it just serves particular agendas and mindsets, but that doesn't serve the human condition. We are creatures of attachment. We need to depend upon each other. Nobody can go it alone. We're trying to go it alone, and we're wondering why it's not working. It's not working because we need each other. And for adults, it needs to be reciprocal.

Deborah MacNamara [00:39:34]:
We lean on someone, they lean on us. We lean on them, they lean on us. We all have needs that we need to deliver to other people, that only other people can deliver the answer to us. So it it if it feels strange to do that, it's because we don't have a lot of cultural support, and we weren't raised that way. So it is an act of courage to show that one is in need these days. But how sad that is? How sad that is?

Ali Shapiro [00:40:00]:
I know. I know. But I think you saying that, it, like, unnormalizes normal. Like, that's what I feel like. I feel like normal is so unhealthy on so many levels that

Deborah MacNamara [00:40:12]:
It's not that.

Ali Shapiro [00:40:12]:
Yeah. It's not natural. I love that you said that. And I think that's so true because I know in my program, why am I eating this now that I have coming up here in September, I'm trying to get people to see that when they go to eat, it's not about what just happened before that. Right? It's some unmet emotional need. And you talk about, like, feeling our feelings is a luxury. And I think that not feeling like we can depend on anyone, not feeling we neediness, we kind of stuff everything down. And then for like a lot of my clients at night, it's like, why am I standing in front of the fridge? And I'm like, well, we need to go back, like, maybe over the weekend.

Ali Shapiro [00:40:46]:
Like, it's not about what just happened right Before that. But can you and and it's like, oh, again, if we go back to what you talked about earlier, food has become this place that we associate with resting in a way. Even if it's not full rest. Right? It's it's a way that we'll take as much rest as we can and our feelings tend to come up then and then the food pairs with it. But can you talk more about feeling our feelings is a luxury and we how we need the sense of attachment and belonging to even start to like, so many of my clients like, why can't? Why don't I know what I can feel? I'm like, well, because there's you need space for that and you need safety. And if you're going to judge yourself every time something comes up, it makes it really difficult. So can you talk a little bit about feeling our feelings is a luxury? Because I don't think most people think that way.

Deborah MacNamara [00:41:33]:
No. And I don't think we have language, particularly as we're moving into understanding emotional science a little bit better. Emotions and feelings are seen as the same thing, and they're not. Emotions are unconscious. Feelings are the conscious process of making sense of the emotions that are stirred up in the body. So if if you like, the brain is incredible. It gets all these pieces of information, and it decides what to bring into consciousness, what to make sense out of. And it doesn't process everything right away.

Deborah MacNamara [00:42:02]:
It can hold on to emotions, and they pop up later on at night when you're going to bed, in the middle of the night, whenever first thing in the morning. And the brain has to have the luxury of that attention. Now if you've got other things that are threatening to you, you've got a job you've gotta get to, you don't wanna lose your job, your survival depends upon that, you gotta get your kids to school, you're working on a project, you've got other people's needs on your doorstep, What oftentimes happens is the brain gets busy saying, okay. Push it aside. Those emotions are not critical for survival right now, but where you need to be paying attention is. So it presses down on the emotions, but it doesn't mean the emotions have gone away. It just means they're sitting there, and they can blow out. You know? Someone gets behind their car and has road rage.

Deborah MacNamara [00:42:47]:
I mean, you know, that's not conch that's, like, that's stuff coming up. So you know, that you have no words for. So feelings are a luxury. They require some space. They require rituals that protect and preserve space, like people having morning rituals or meditation rituals or exercise rituals or going for a walk or just a space. No screens. No stimulation. Like, we don't even have a luxury of space anymore because of screens nonstop.

Deborah MacNamara [00:43:16]:
So you need some space so that the brain can pay attention to the body. The body can respond. The brain can start to make sense out of it. That alone is a huge luxury in today's world with parents and adults overtaxed with competing responsibilities where it's all about getting ahead, and you're not rewarded for making space. The the only thing that happens is long term. You're gonna be a lot healthier, but that's a long term view. So that's why a lot of this stuff was in rituals, that we had rituals and ways of being that preserve the space for the metabolizing of our emotional world so that every day had some beginnings and had some endings. And we could land on that, you know, that that capacity to reflect, to have some tears.

Deborah MacNamara [00:44:02]:
The more emotionally stirred up we are, the more the challenges we can have with eating. It's like we should almost have a fridge that doesn't unlock unless it can do a little test on you and say, have you had enough tears today? And he's like, nope. Go back. Have some more tears, and then you can come and eat. That would be probably the best way to take care of us. No. No. Because emotions get displaced, and they're not conscious, and we don't know.

Deborah MacNamara [00:44:29]:
And we don't even we don't even necessarily even feel our hunger. Our brain cuts out signals. And if I'm presenting for a whole day and I'm working and I'm really concentrating and running a big group, I'm not feeling my hunger. I don't I don't have the need to go to the bathroom as much. I don't feel hungry. But I can tell you when I I leave that event and I'm moving into my night, all of the feelings, you know, emotions will start to come back. My hunger will hopefully start to come back, and everything starts to return. And then I have to sit with it there.

Deborah MacNamara [00:45:01]:
So we just don't understand that. And when we had rituals and we had structure, we had routine, we had culture, we had food ways, that cycled us in and out of rest mode, in and out of rest mode, into work mode, into rest mode. Into work mode. Into rest mode. What happens today, and and I'll just end with this, is that we think that when when we go to grab something to eat and we're not really fully in a rest mode, we're just trying to soothe, soothe this big world that stirred up in our gut and all sorts of, you know, interesting relationships now that are coming about the gut and the brain connection. But we're trying to soothe what has been stirred up that we have no words for. That's a perfect recipe for addiction because anything that soothes that doesn't satiate sets you up for a repetitive pattern. There's nothing as addictive as something that almost works.

Deborah MacNamara [00:45:52]:
Soothing is not satiation. It isn't rest, and so it becomes something that helps us get by. But it has consequences for long term well-being because we're not really getting to rest, and we need rest.

Ali Shapiro [00:46:07]:
Yes. Yes. Oh my god. I love that you said that. And this makes me think too. You do daily and eat in your book about comfort food versus so can you talk about because, again, I love this nuance there. I even love just to go back and geek out that you made the differentiation between emotions and feelings because I train people in my process. And I'm like, emotions to your they're just like they're what if in traditional emotional eating, it's like wait 90 seconds and the quote, unquote feeling will pass.

Ali Shapiro [00:46:36]:
What they're talking about is the emotion. Right? The sensation. But if it's attached to a story or a judgment or something else, it's that feeling you're talking about. So I just love that you made that differentiation because people toss them around like they're the same, but they have very consequential differences. But can you talk about, as you talk about in your book, comfort food? And I think, again, sometimes people will beat themselves up if they're going for a comfort food. But can you talk about that in through the lens of attachment versus self soothing with repetitive foods that soothe but maybe not comfort? Yeah.

Deborah MacNamara [00:47:10]:
So comfort food, I mean, it was really interesting. I was like, well, what are what is comfort food to people? And it's like all these researchers are trying to figure out, okay. Well, what are the foods that comfort? And you can't actually find a particular group of food because it's not developed that way. It's developed in the context of caring relationships. So it it it basically symbolically represents someone. You reach for that person. If that person isn't available, you reach for the food that symbolically represents that person. And in that way, the food becomes comforting because the emotions and the memories are embedded in the food.

Deborah MacNamara [00:47:46]:
But it is a symbolic gesture. It isn't really the person. It's just bringing a sense of that person back to you, but it at least matches the hunger in that it's a relational form of trying to connect back. And, you know, in the reaching, you're trying to find the answer here. And so the comfort foods are comfort foods are something born from relationship and from from caring, vulnerable emotion.

Ali Shapiro [00:48:13]:
I love that. Because I think sometimes again, if if you're not using it to soothe, but, like, I think about, you know, my grandma's no longer with us and, I mean, she lived a long great life, But she was like my second mom. And sometimes, like, I'll notice, like, sometimes at her house, she had, like, peanut butter and jelly for us. Right? Like and and she I mean, and she would have we joke, like, the junky peanut butter because my family my mom's side was health conscious. And it's like now sometimes when I'm, like, feeling her, I'll feel like I I'll, like, make myself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It doesn't happen often, but I'm like, oh, I want grandma's energy right now. Like, I you know, so this book also made me like, oh my god. This is, you know and it's like, oh, I can think of, like, what would she tell me? And I know what she would tell me.

Ali Shapiro [00:48:56]:
But because I have your lens on this, right, it's like I can ask the right questions rather than why the hell am I eating peanut butter and you know, if if I were to beat myself up for that, which I don't. But you know what I'm saying? Like, I I just think that's so important for people to realize because there's so much judgment around food. And this actually brings up something that I know I need to work on after reading your book. What you're talking about here, again, we've used the word rest, but, like, food rituals, safe relationships are here to bring us to rest. And you want food to be about that. And so I find it interesting that you talk about not making food primarily about health because then it becomes something that we, like, you know, have to do. And I think most people listening to this, especially those of us who are health health oriented, may do a double take at that. So can we delve deeper deeper into what you mean about not making food about health? Even separate than weight.

Ali Shapiro [00:49:46]:
Just, you know, my son is, like, obsessed with running fast. And I was like, well, that broccoli on your plate will help you run fast. You know? So then he's, like, shoving broccoli in his face. But now I'm like, oh, I should have just been like, okay. Okay. So tell us what what your views are

Deborah MacNamara [00:50:01]:
on it. This is this is a behavioral lens on food. The more that you have to work at keeping yourself healthy, keeping yourself safe, keeping yourself well, you know, that you're to blame for your body's well-being completely, that's an alarming place. And that's a very behaviorally driven lens. Food should never be work. As soon as it's work, we start to get alarmed. We start to get frustrated. We can't rest enough to digest our food.

Deborah MacNamara [00:50:30]:
If food is about connection, if food is about play, if food is about enjoyment, then we're in our body can can deal with that food a lot better. It also brings us into relationship, and that relationship is the heart of longevity and resiliency. All of the research has shown that has far superior effects. Loneliness kills just as much, if not more, than smoking and bad eating. And so we have to understand here that our obsession with food is that we're trying to take care of ourselves and our well-being instead of trusting that putting our hands into each other's hands and togetherness is the answer, and then food combined with that is, of course, the the whole package. So a behavioral lens says, is it good? Is it bad? What's in it? You know, we don't eat food anymore. We eat nutrients. That's one of the problems.

Deborah MacNamara [00:51:20]:
It's like, you you don't know. I don't want to know what's in these cookies. I wanna trust the person who's giving me a cookie, loves and wants to take care of me, that we're doing this at the time that we should be doing cookies because that's how they take care of me, and, you know, I flow I go with the flow. So it's a behavioral lens. Our health focus is a behavioral lens. It is dividing us from food as a gift. You shouldn't have to deserve food, everybody. It's just should be unmerited.

Deborah MacNamara [00:51:50]:
Even in some of the indigenous teachings that I was given by by some people I interviewed, they said, you know, we don't even make our children, like, say thank you or please because that if you have to say please for your food, it's like begging, like, that someone might not give it to you. Of course, we're gonna take care of you. Of course, we're gonna provide for you. And, of course, we know that you're grateful. If you feel that someone has given to you and has taken care of you, reciprocity and gratefulness should be there. But what do we do today? We say, eat together and with joy. That's our prescription. Okay.

Deborah MacNamara [00:52:22]:
I'd like you to sit down and eat together. Okay. Now that becomes work. Okay. Are we together? Are we should we be together? Should we play this game? Okay. You're not playing the game. Right? That's not togetherness then. Okay.

Deborah MacNamara [00:52:32]:
Enjoy. Okay. Well, how do I manufacture joy then? Okay. Do I put a smile on my face then? It's work, work, work, work, work. You shouldn't have to work that hard. If you're in a relationship, joy is part of that because the emotions are there. If you're at rest, then there is that sense of togetherness and joy that comes. But what do we do? We make these work based prescriptions instead of getting into the how of eating.

Deborah MacNamara [00:52:57]:
And and Michael Pollan said this really well. It's really easy to fix what we eat, and we spend all of our time and energy. But in the research that's done with parents, 87% of parents say, we're pretty sure we know what we should be eating. What we don't know, over 70% of parents say, we don't know how to eat. We don't know how to get them to eat this food. We don't know nutritionally, leave it behind, taste new food. It's the how part because we're trying to give prescriptions on how you eat as if it will work. It's not work.

Deborah MacNamara [00:53:31]:
It's play, and it's connection. So stop with the food, health stuff. I just assume that the people that if if they love me, they're gonna feed me as best food they can. Like, wouldn't they? Wouldn't someone who really cares about you feed you the best food that they knew how to feed you?

Ali Shapiro [00:53:52]:
You're hitting on 2 things. I think of, like, sequence over strategy. You're not saying don't eat healthy food. You're saying that will come as a product of having the connection first. And it and meal time being a place of rest where, you know, we do, like, best part, worst part of your day and, you know, like, then what's what's being offered is being more likely to be received because the your your children can rest. But same with us for adults. I I just I just wanna emphasize that for for people. Because sometimes people hear either or, you know.

Ali Shapiro [00:54:22]:
But you're right. Like, won't people serve me the best food that they know how? You know. I think though some of us grew up and my family was was not like this, but a lot of my clients, like, their family had no concept of nutrition. And and, you know, in America, we have super highly palatable foods. And so there is this kind of, you know well, my parents didn't know, but I think we've swung in the opposite direction of, like, okay. To your point, like, it's pretty simple what to eat. That's what I always work on with clients. I'm like, what to eat is pretty undramatic.

Ali Shapiro [00:54:53]:
It's really not that exciting in terms of, like, you know, there's no like, I don't really believe in, like, super foods and all that. You know, it's like, no. Eat in season. You know, try to get real food most of the time, but it's the how. And what you're offering is the how is which I think is so key for people.

Deborah MacNamara [00:55:09]:
And I think the the just to that point there, which is really important, is that the how got broken for us in our past generation for our parents, which is the how became about what marketers or food processors, Farms became factories. And so the how how we ate got dislodged from relationship. We ate on the land. We ate we ate plants. We ate close to home. It wasn't about a smorgasbord of things available that you could fly in from around the world. It was about eating in relationship to mother nature, understanding the seasons. Our indigenous people have been preserving food since time immemorial.

Deborah MacNamara [00:55:47]:
They wouldn't have never lasted through the winters if they didn't know how to preserve their salmon and their seaweed or whatever it was on their land. So what also our parents inherited was a broken relationship with the food we eat. Because, you know, selling a yam versus selling yam chips is a different economic price point. Like, someone is benefiting. Yam versus yam chips, there's you can charge a lot more for yam chips. And so our relationship with food got broken when we stopped being able to see, grow, smell, and live off the land. And food got sold to us as this is better. This is better, you know, than breast milk.

Deborah MacNamara [00:56:28]:
This is better look at all these macronutrients that you know, as if mother nature wouldn't provide for us the best that she possibly could to survive. Of course, she did. Of course, she did. So, you know, in my book, one of the the quotes I have is from Pierre Pierre Camparesi who said, dietetic engineering has become our new fond anxious mama. Yeah. It's a poor replacement. It's a poor replacement for what used to take care of us. So we have to realize, no wonder we're so alarmed just because the food systems were broken from our own parents.

Deborah MacNamara [00:57:01]:
And so we're trying to say, well, what do we eat then? That doesn't seem like food to me. Yeah. I would agree with you. And so all the put go back to things that you know your grandmother would serve, things that you recognize, most natural states, of course. But we used to eat like that. That used to be our environment.

Ali Shapiro [00:57:18]:
Oh my god. I love that. Because I as you were talking, I'm like, yeah, the original attachment figure is mother earth. Right? And it's like and and to be yeah. It's almost like now it's the anxious mother. Right? Of like that's that's so fascinating, that quote. As you were talking too, as you were saying so much work, I I did a whole episode with this woman named Anne Helen Petersen about how the Puritans and productism is I always have a hard time saying that. Really, like, white Jesus is, like, really rampant in wellness.

Ali Shapiro [00:57:47]:
Right? Like, purity culture, all this stuff. But it's also in this, like, idea of work ethic. Right? And it makes me think of because we have some we have a lot of practitioners who listen to this. What you're talking about behavioralism that for for people in who are practitioners who help people with habit change change, it's thinking about the environment and how do you control the person and and whatnot. And that to me is almost rested on this, like, Judeo Christian belief that you have to earn your goodness. Right? Because when you're saying in indigenous cultures, we just trust you're grateful. We trust if we support all of this. You're going to this gets back to developmental psychology.

Ali Shapiro [00:58:25]:
You're going to grow and thrive into someone who wants to contribute to our community. But that's not how, like, all of North American culture like, this foundation is rest on. You have to earn your goodness. Right? You have to earn your attachment.

Deborah MacNamara [00:58:39]:
Mhmm. Yeah. And that's that's the essence of behaviorism. I mean, that's the Skinnerian, model, which is, you know, John Watson. Don't pick up the child. You know, when they cry, they'll get used to it. You know, you gotta push them out there into the world. You know, Skinner when Skinner and Carl Rogers, who was a humanist, they were having an a debate.

Deborah MacNamara [00:58:57]:
And someone said to Skinner, like, why do you make people work for love? Like, you know, they have to earn, you know, what they get under your your approach here. And he said, but what else do we have to make them work? And that's where, you know, paradise was lost. You're not meant to work for some things. You're meant to work at some things, but not everything. We have 3 primary drives, the need to work, the need to rest and attachment, and the need for play. And both play and attachment are rest modes, and that's where we should be doing our sleeping. That's where we should be doing our eating. That's where we should be doing our self care and and rituals this way.

Deborah MacNamara [00:59:35]:
And then we need to show up, and we need to work hard at whatever it is that we need to work at. But they need to have some spaces between them. And, they've all got mixed together, and everything's being pushed into a work mode now. We work at making our kids go to sleep. Do we work at, you know, or exercise? Back in the day, you know, lots of people are really healthy by just doing, you know, like the Blue Zones research. They just everything they do, they're walking and moving their body. It's not artificial. It's just part of their life.

Deborah MacNamara [01:00:04]:
And so it was all integrated. So, no, work is the primary the work mode and its complete invasiveness in all aspects of our life is destroying well-being.

Ali Shapiro [01:00:16]:
I love that you brought that up because so many of my clients, they work hard and they're disciplined in other areas of their life. And I talk about in the coaching field, we say when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So it's like, oh, if this worked here, it's gonna work on my food. It's gonna work on this. And it's like, oh my god. Food becomes this big, like, project, like, the project where my work is helpful lead to help them move it to the back and realize that when you have this belonging to yourself and you feel like you can be in relationship, first starting with yourself because, again, it's an adult sense of belonging, not not a child's. But I just love that you said that because I I'm in my own personal era of, like, what if I didn't work so hard? What if I rest more? And I'm loving it. And it's like, I'm not feeling guilty.

Ali Shapiro [01:01:01]:
And it's like, okay. I know when to work hard, but it's been really a big revelation, this concept of rest for me the last couple years. So okay. So I would like to leave listeners with some practical reframes from your book for both feeding their children and themselves because I love the parenthesis in your books. Right? Rest, play, and grow for toddler or toddlers, parenthesis, or anyone who acts like 1, which is like, this book applies to the person that your partner who can't hear criticism effectively or you, but nerve nurse just like in parenthesis and everyone else we love. Right? So this is one of the many gems in your book. We talked about this a little bit, but I wanna ask it again. When someone is beating themselves up for seeking comfort food, what else might they think about why they're seeking comfort food?

Deborah MacNamara [01:01:49]:
Well, it's about it's a trying to feel what is the need? What is the hunger? What is the nature of the hole inside of you that you're trying to fill?

Ali Shapiro [01:01:57]:
That's such a beautiful question. Often, the questions people ask themselves is, how do I stop eating when I don't want to? And you suggest a better question along the lines of is, how can I support you in what you're seeking? Can you expand upon that?

Deborah MacNamara [01:02:13]:
Well, again, it comes to what's the nature of the whole? What is the answer that is coming to you? And why is food the answer? And could other things be the answer there too? Right? If we could seek a cell phone and technology. We could seek any form of distraction and and pursuit, but, food is the most accessible and ready. But, again, it comes back to, well, what am I trying to fill? What am I what am I not trying to feel? Those might be questions to start asking yourself and make room for or to make some rituals so that you can move into rest before you move into your eating and to pay attention. Like, oftentimes, if I am upset emotionally and and I it's time to eat, I'm like, I just don't feel hungry because I'm just I need a good cry. I need to feel sad. It's okay that I don't eat. It's I just wait for the hunger to return. It's just to paying attention to those cues and and knowing and just trying to have some sort of relationship where you're scanning and asking those questions and, you know, believing that you're strong enough to hear the answer.

Ali Shapiro [01:03:24]:
That was beautiful. A lot of the mindful eating, intuitive eating, different camps, they give people rules around, like, slow down this or that. And what you're saying is create a ritual to feel. Right? And then the food will take care of itself. I just because sometimes people can the perfectionism can be very rigid about, well, I can't list. Like, I had one client who was like, she's feeling very alone, and we were working on that outside of food. And she's like, when I slow down and right now, food it's just too painful to eat alone. I'm like, then put on a podcast.

Ali Shapiro [01:03:56]:
She's like, but I was told. And I was like, no. You're feeling we're working through this on another level. So I just wanna make sure that people realize that you're not saying ritualize all these things in the way that they often hear about it. You're saying make a ritual to feel.

Deborah MacNamara [01:04:10]:
Yeah. I don't wanna give I I tried very carefully not to give any prescriptions throughout

Ali Shapiro [01:04:15]:
this book. You did it. That's why I love the book. That's that's why I love your parenting book and this book.

Deborah MacNamara [01:04:21]:
When you get to the what is the root is that if we could feel our emptiness, then we could eat from a place of emptiness and then be able to feel when we're full. The problem is is we're not eating from a place of emptiness. Food has become fuel. It's become work. It's become portion sizes, calories. It's become nutrients. It's no longer food. It's become a reward.

Deborah MacNamara [01:04:43]:
You know? So if you're eating from a place of relationship to yourself and to your food, then this natural system should hopefully kick in. If you need some rituals and some ways of eating that help support you, then make sense of that for you and develop them and test them out. But please don't think there's some universal rituals this way. There isn't. It it must be born from your needs or your family's needs.

Ali Shapiro [01:05:08]:
I love that. I love that. Okay. And this is, we touched on this, but I'm going to just ask it again. You say we are meant to seek togetherness when in need. And it's this neediness that saves us. Do you have any practical tip for experimenting with how to be needy in our relationship so we so we can make food part of the solution, not the problem that so many people struggle with?

Deborah MacNamara [01:05:30]:
Yeah. Well, I I just think, again, it's it's where do I seek to depend? Who do I seek to depend upon? Mother nature is a source of dependence. It could be another adult in your life. It could be a faith or a higher power for you. It could be one of your way back people or ancestors who you this is grandma's soup and, you know, whatever grandma's biscuits. But where do you seek dependence? Are you seeking to go it alone? Like, that's the question that I would ask. And, you know, who who do you deliver your needs to? And and there's no one right place that way. But do you allow someone to help you? Do you allow someone to deeply love you? Do you allow someone to take the lead for you? Do you switch it up? Do you take a lead for that person? When it comes to your kids, we are the ones taking the lead, but where do you rest in somebody's care? You know, in your, like, real life or in memory or in a sense of belonging to nature or, you know, the farmers who care for you or farm to market or, you know, 100 mile diet or whatever it is that you perceive this way.

Deborah MacNamara [01:06:37]:
Just visit your needs. Feel your needs. Feel the lack. Feel the loss. It's okay. They're not gonna kill you. The more that you can put a name on it, the more that you can feel the shape of the hole, the more that you have that into conscious awareness, the more that you're likely to find something that fits as, a lock and a key to that. But you have to kinda sometimes sit in what is missing and where you do feel your needs before you can you can venture out to to visit them upon somebody.

Ali Shapiro [01:07:06]:
And I think of how you said, and we're strong enough to hear the answer. Right? We need reminded of that, I think, often. So, doctor McNamara, is there anything that I haven't asked you or you're surprised that other people haven't asked you yet in relation to this book?

Deborah MacNamara [01:07:21]:
Oh, well, I I loved all of the questions you asked me and not surface level ones. They were ones that I think really got to the root of it, and and I hope they're helpful to your audience and and and to the way that you you think about food in your life. I guess the thing I would emphasize is that the whole purpose of the book was about insight and consciousness. And so please try not to be too self conscious about it now. Forget about it and just try to get into some ways that help preserve food as being a gift in your life, that it is about relationship, mother nature who nourishes us or wherever you believe this comes from. And finding concrete, tangible ways to move out of that work mode so that when it comes to your relationship with food, that it can nourish you a lot better because it's in a rest mode, in a play mode, whatever that might look like for you. And, you know, experiment. Try some things.

Deborah MacNamara [01:08:16]:
It's okay. There's no one right way to do this. Just notice what works, notice what doesn't, and just keep trying. But, yeah, this is about consciousness and insight, and there's no one right answer. But the the work mode, the behavioral mode is really the problem here, and it's quite formidable, in terms of trying to to remake it in our lives. But what a wonderful thing when we can try to make headway on that.

Ali Shapiro [01:08:41]:
Well, and I think this book is gonna bring a lot of connections for people in that consciousness so they can start to see the whole and not just the the food itself. So thank you so much. I I know books, I imagine, are labors of love. So thank you so much for your work in the world. I really do think this is one of the most important books of food and in culturally, I I wish I think everyone needs to read this from practitioners to providers to eaters because I think we're we're kinda spinning our wheels. So thank you for for giving us a way out that's healthy. We won't call it that. We'll just trust.

Deborah MacNamara [01:09:20]:
But, yeah, thank you so much, Ali. I've really enjoyed meeting you and all the best to you and your community and for your kind words about the material as well.

Ali Shapiro [01:09:27]:
Thank you so much.