Hold My Cutter
The Grand Slam of Grit: John "The Rock" Wehner
When the odds seemed stacked against him, John Rock Wehner emerged from Carrick with little more than a Greyhound Bus pass and the support of his grandmother, stepping into the limelight of professional baseball with stories that resonate with the heart of Americana. His voyage is a testament to the power of perseverance, and we're thrilled to share his candid recollections with you. From the culture shock of an empty college dormitory to the pressures of a major league debut, John peels back the curtain on the transformative moments that define a ballplayer's journey.
Navigating potholed fields and overhanging fences, the city athlete's ingenuity takes center stage as Rock reminisces about the rough charm of urban baseball. His tales of homemade field maintenance and unconventional gameplay underscore the resilience and mental toughness needed beyond natural talent. In this episode, we get an intimate view of how pivotal a player's intelligence and adaptability are when facing adversity, and why these attributes often carry more weight than the stats on a player card.
Finally, we celebrate the strategic ballet of baseball with a nod to its unsung heroes—the mentors who guide players like John through the nuances of the game. We reflect on the evolution of coaching, the nuances of outsmarting defensive shifts, and the significance of tactical decision-making. It's a journey through 13 professional seasons, culminating in a profound love for the game that shines in every anecdote, from the thrill of rookie excitement to the pride of a major league at-bat. Join us for an episode that captures the essence of baseball and the undying passion that fuels those who play it.
CHAPTERS
0:08
Journey From Carrick to Indiana
Urban Baseball Field Stories
The Importance of Mental Toughness
The Lost Art of Baseball Strategy
John Wainer's Baseball Journey
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING!!!!
www.holdmycutter.com
When the odds seemed stacked against him, John Rock Wehner emerged from Carrick with little more than a Greyhound Bus pass and the support of his grandmother, stepping into the limelight of professional baseball with stories that resonate with the heart of Americana. His voyage is a testament to the power of perseverance, and we're thrilled to share his candid recollections with you. From the culture shock of an empty college dormitory to the pressures of a major league debut, John peels back the curtain on the transformative moments that define a ballplayer's journey.
Navigating potholed fields and overhanging fences, the city athlete's ingenuity takes center stage as Rock reminisces about the rough charm of urban baseball. His tales of homemade field maintenance and unconventional gameplay underscore the resilience and mental toughness needed beyond natural talent. In this episode, we get an intimate view of how pivotal a player's intelligence and adaptability are when facing adversity, and why these attributes often carry more weight than the stats on a player card.
Finally, we celebrate the strategic ballet of baseball with a nod to its unsung heroes—the mentors who guide players like John through the nuances of the game. We reflect on the evolution of coaching, the nuances of outsmarting defensive shifts, and the significance of tactical decision-making. It's a journey through 13 professional seasons, culminating in a profound love for the game that shines in every anecdote, from the thrill of rookie excitement to the pride of a major league at-bat. Join us for an episode that captures the essence of baseball and the undying passion that fuels those who play it.
CHAPTERS
0:08
Journey From Carrick to Indiana
Urban Baseball Field Stories
The Importance of Mental Toughness
The Lost Art of Baseball Strategy
John Wainer's Baseball Journey
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING!!!!
www.holdmycutter.com
Here, I guess, this week. On Hold my Cutter is a guy who once used a railroad tie to drag a baseball field. He has a lifetime pass riders pass on Greyhound Bus and he's also a lifetime enthusiast of town talk breadwrappers. You guessed it the Carrick Native, the Legend himself. John Brock Wainer's our guest, richard Stoke and Johnny have a seat, and Michael and I look forward to talking to John Wainer coming up next.
Speaker 2:on Hold my Cutter Walk radio in this little tiny suitcase in like the extra yarn afghan your grandmother made you and I got chopped off my sister's boyfriends a motorhead so he left and went up to Indianapolis and me and my mom were left in this dorm room. Coach at Indiana comes down with Mickey Morandini because he's from Leechburg, pa. He got kind of the same story from a year before he got an offer out of this Legion All-Star stuff. So they drive me around campus and then I see it and it's beautiful and I come back and I'm just sitting there and I'm like I see these people moving in with the U-Hauls and all this fish aquariums and refrigerators and I got like $70 and I don't have $7 in afghan I don't have sheets.
Speaker 3:I don't have pillows.
Speaker 2:I don't have toiletries.
Speaker 3:But you got your little afghan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I said, ma, we got to go to Kmart, and so we call a cab, go to Kmart and I buy this stuff, and then my mom, like my sister's boyfriend, comes and they pick my mom up and I'm just sitting in this room. I haven't registered for classes. I got sheets now and I got like shower shoes and shampoo and soap and I'm just sitting there by myself. School doesn't start for a week. I'm like what the hell am I going to do?
Speaker 1:now, oh my gosh, you got to do it it was just the worst culture shock ever.
Speaker 2:It was off, but anyhow, that was a long story.
Speaker 3:You probably felt like a little bit of prison, because when nobody's there it feels like prison. Well, it's like when your mother leaves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then all of a sudden, like you're, all of a sudden, there's music going on and you're in Indiana, there's complete silence.
Speaker 2:I got the clock radio on and like.
Speaker 2:Indiana's playing country music and I'm like what's this? Oh my gosh, I'm like what is going on here and literally I keep in touch with him. Today A guy named Jerry Peterson was my sweet mate and he came down early. A sweet mate was like the two rooms we shared, like a phone like it went between the two dorm rooms or whatever, and so he introduced himself and I got to know him and he kind of showed me around and stuff like that, and so I got settled in Indiana. So that's how I got to Indiana. But like the rest of the story, as far as not, it was like I didn't know anything about baseball, I just played it and I had a drill sergeant for a coach. He absolutely just drilled us to death. It was exhausting. Then there's school. I went to Carrick. No offense, carrick, but I wasn't prepared for college.
Speaker 2:We could tell that by the story, like I got to read a book.
Speaker 1:What is this? I got to do research.
Speaker 2:I got to do all this stuff and I didn't play at Indiana. That's. The other amazing thing is my freshman year I got like 14 at bats. My sophomore year, I maybe got 90 or 80 or 90 at bats. And even my junior year it was the last month of the season that I started playing regularly and I went off and hit very well. And so there's an old scout from McKee's Rocks, leo Davis, and there were some other guys, elmer Gray, I got a call to come to a tryout at three over stadium. Well, the problem was I had a final the day before. It was after my junior year.
Speaker 2:I took a summer class, a three week course. My final was on a Wednesday. I got an invite to this tryout at three over stadium on Thursday and so I had to find a ride home. I get a ride home to Pittsburgh, I get a home at like midnight. I get the three over stadium like seven in the morning and they're like we don't know anything about you, but it's same thing, you run to 60, you do the thing. Then we got the hit and I hadn't played in a couple of weeks. That was in summer school. And so after the tryout, elmer Gray comes up to me and says we don't have much on you, we haven't seen you play, nobody saw you played in college. But if we draft you, you was signed. I'm like yeah, I'm not going back to school, I ate it there, don't make me go back.
Speaker 2:And so, and then back then you got a telegram. I got a telegram, a Western Union telegram, telling me I got drafted, I didn't get a phone call, we didn't follow the graph. I got a Western Union telegram and it didn't tell me what round and I went down like a few days later and met Sid Thrift, sid Thurver Stadium. Thurver Stadium General manager.
Speaker 1:General manager.
Speaker 2:Elmer Gray was there and a couple others. I know Jim Bowden was there and I'll tell you I don't want to get into that, but anyhow.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:We're sitting there and they're offering me like $12,500. I'm like wow, that's awesome. What round did I go in? They said seventh round and I about fell off the chair. Seventh round. You couldn't believe you were that high. Yeah, I didn't think I was going to get drafted at all.
Speaker 3:That's still when they had 60 rounds, right? Yeah, they had unlimited rounds back then. Oh, they had unlimited yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow. And so they drafted me. And then I called Mickey Morandini because he got drafted by the Pirates a year before Me and him as far as out of high school this legion thing going to IU and then getting drafted by the Pirates and he told me he goes. Yeah, I got drafted seventh round. They offered me $12,500. I said no because I wanted to play in the Olympics. I waited a week. They gave me, they offered me $25,000 and then I waited like a month and then they offered he was in the Cape Cod and they offered him $40,000.
Speaker 2:So I took that information with me the next day to three rivers and met Sid Thrift, and Barry Bonds came in and Andy Vinesite came in. While I was talking to Sid Thrift, jim Bowden was showing me around and I told him what Mickey Morandini told me and he said that's not true. They offered a seventh round or $40,000. So we're sitting there and we're back and forth and my agent was my mother and my brother, whose eyes were bigger than mine, and Sid Thrift literally said to me what do you want to do? And I said, well, I want to sign. He goes. Well, then sign. I'm like okay, and I signed for my $12,500.
Speaker 1:I'm a great negotiator. Not a lot of leverage. That was that Well you signed.
Speaker 3:heck yeah, how much. Okay, good negotiator.
Speaker 1:That was that. That is incredible. Who in the world was it? Do you think Elmer was great. Elmer was underrated, the late great Elmer Gray. But who do you think it was that really? Caught his eye Any idea?
Speaker 2:Like I said at this, tryout again and not knowing, that was an invite to that tryout, yeah it was an invite.
Speaker 2:There was only like 30 kids there and it's the first time I've been to a tryout at three rivers, before the legion thing, like after high school. And that was kind of funny too, because I went to the tryout and it was an open tryout, so there was five thousand kids there. It seemed like there wasn't that many, but it was the day after a truck pull and they said whoever ever runs the 60 under seven, we'll have them hit. Well, out of the hundreds of kids there there's like five or six of us that ran the 60 under seven and they said never mind, we took infield. The group of field was soaking wet because of the truck pull. They had to like clean it up.
Speaker 2:So I was the only time I was at three rivers before that and at that time, you know, I just think it was one of the things that they did back then. So I I don't know if somebody saw me then, but what I didn't know then, I do know now. I was a big kid, six, three, two, oh five, and I could throw and I can run and, and you know, after you're in the system you realize that Back then everybody was big and they could run, and so I Mean, I just think that, just because of the natural God-given talent that I was, that I had, you know, that kind of like, I got Leo Davis, joe Probolla, like it, rick's pro, dick, pro, yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't know he had seen me before. Prode definitely, and I feel bad if I'm either something, maybe I'm not real sure but and again, I just think that you know, I did some regular tryouts around here with like Joe Emmanuel, with he was at the Royals back then and stuff like that and and everybody that I ever talked to out of high school said you need to go to call because I was wrong, I didn't.
Speaker 3:You know Karaoke you played yeah, they didn't very sorry care.
Speaker 2:No, you had 18 games a year. You know, until my senior year, we didn't have a pitchers mom.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 2:Playing beer league softball. Yeah Well, basically we played on a field that they played beer league softball the night before in the rain and the day we played it was just, you know, just muddy ruts and the field never got drug. You know how our field got drugged and carrot, and this is no lie. Don Hurley was our coach and and Hurley was a great loved baseball. He would take his pickup Onto the field with a railroad tie behind it and he would drag the infield.
Speaker 2:That's the only time I ever saw it Could drug ever. You know, and and and you only nails know anything, it was just, it was a railroad tie Behind his pickup truck and he only maybe Drugged it like once a month the fat and so, and then the other thing, too.
Speaker 2:People realize that you see little games or whatever and you have the, you know the, the batting cage around it. You know, like the thing, the overhang. Yeah, well, because Carrick is in the middle of city and there's houses over here, there was always that batting cage like a fence that went over home plate. So you got to realize, until I went to college there was never an infield fly. I've never, ever had an infield fly hit to me in my entire life until I went to college, because all the fields in in the city league were exactly like that. You know, there was a kind I shouldn't say never, I I don't recall but there was a couple of fields bob perky field in Bethel park, westfield, mone hall, um, those were a couple of fields that I didn't have A fence over the home plate area. So I played short growing up but like it's like, you never got a pop up in the infield.
Speaker 3:It was a foul ball. That doesn't make you a better hitter, though, right.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I guess you get another strike, you know?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah you could just keep doing that, right yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean the, the field we played on and all of them like this is kind of silly. So right up the street here you know, on the north side, the little park in front of agh, yeah, that little tiny park, well, there's a little infield. They don't play there anymore, I'll think, but there's a little dirt thing. My freshman year out, the Allegheny, was that that school there? I it was. I think it's Allegheny middle school, not only even though, if it's open, but it was Allegheny high school. My mother went to school at Allegheny high school. We played baseball in that tiny little field, like the trees and left field were like 200 feet away.
Speaker 3:So you were going bushes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you just hit a five ball left. It's like I don't think I gave you a homer, I think I gave you a double, but it was like it was. Incredible, like the fields we played on, like all of them. Um, perry was like this, and I'm talking no grass on the infield or the outfield. Perry was like that. Peabody was like a Peabody had a tennis court in center field.
Speaker 3:Um, shenley had a tennis court slash basketball court and left center field like concrete, yeah, or was it like no concrete.
Speaker 2:At least in Peabody there was a fence around the tennis court slash basketball court. Shenley there was no fence around the the basketball court slash tennis court.
Speaker 3:You said. You said you had a ground ball Right in the again hurt.
Speaker 2:The ground was so hard, it was all dirt. So whether you know yeah, I mean it was, I think it's Schenley if you hit a ball in left center, it got past center field, it would roll forever. I think that was pretty much inside the park home. At least in Peabody they had a fence around their tennis court where it would hit the fence and be in play. I think if you hit it into the tennis court on a fly it was just a double. We played on South High School Cooper's Field, I think it's still called. They brought in a plastic mound. They brought in like a cage, put the cage in. We had plastic bases that just sat there so they'd slide, yeah. And then right field was a single if you hit it over the fence.
Speaker 3:Right center was a double and then a little further right center was a triple, so no wonder you weren't a home run hitter as a big guy. No you they didn't let you ever have a home run.
Speaker 2:I carried the only way I hit a home run. I had a ground ball on a third baseline.
Speaker 3:It rolled for 500 feet down the gutter, running for your life.
Speaker 2:I mean you have to see it to believe it. It was Wow, and I mean there's. Tons of kids grew up that way. That's the only way we knew. Until I went to college, I never played on a grass infield.
Speaker 3:What a difference that made Incredible so you had to have good hands from the dirt infield, though.
Speaker 1:That had help. Is there any doubt that you really did have to have good hands for that reason?
Speaker 2:I didn't have good hands. I mean, I used my body mostly, if you're fielding anything on all dirt.
Speaker 3:That's that hard. That's not getting drug. It's like being in the Dominican Republic. A lot of the parks down there. You know that you're picking away, throwing rocks away and everything, but it's hard as a rock.
Speaker 2:It's hard as a rock. You learn to read hops a little bit better, you learn how to get out of the way sometimes when it was hit really hard, I mean, but I took so many balls off the body. Believe it or not, that's kind of how I got the nickname. Rockjaw was because in a ball my second, my first full season in the minors Trent Jewitt, moisesaloo were on that team. Trent Jewitt was a longtime coach with the Pirates and other teams. Moisesaloo obviously was a great player At third base. The ball would be hit hard and I just would block it, you know, and the ball would come up and hit me all over and so they just started calling me Rockjaw. Oh, my gosh, because of that, because I I mean I made a millionaires in a ball. I made 50 years in double A and you know, I didn't know how. I didn't have good hands and luckily, later in my career I learned to use my feet a little bit, which obviously helped the hand.
Speaker 1:Who you talked about, that coach in Indiana, a drill sergeant. Was that a good thing, as it turned out. How did you? Did you learn the game? Did you just naturally know the game, playing it so often?
Speaker 2:Bob Morgan was the coach and most guys weren't fans of Bob Morgan because he was a drill sergeant. I mean you'd run to you through up. You worked out every day. It was intense, it was regimented.
Speaker 3:Was it a time restriction?
Speaker 2:No, and it was just, it just went and went and went and he just buried you. He rarely had anything positive to say, it was just you know and and and. But I learned so much there. He knew the roles, he knew, he learned, I taught. I learned so much about baseball and I've always said this, even since as a broadcaster.
Speaker 2:I always talked about how I always felt college players were better, fundamentally, than high school signs or, you know, international free agent signings, because they are drilled every day that they don't play on situations. You know first to third situations. You know what to do with one out, no out, two out. You know all those different scenarios when you're going with the ball in different situations, different scores of the game, and so I, I mean I got drilled that every day. You know in in college and so it makes you use your mind. You know you're, you know for me, I, I felt there was more. You know the mental part of the game that I, that I think, helped me climb the ladder and get to the big leagues than than anything else.
Speaker 1:We had Alex Presley on a podcast. Rock, former pirate out there, spent several season in the big leagues with other clubs and he talked about and Fort talked about this too that you're not in this category, that those guys were. Without being disrespectful, they talked about being kind of undersized. You know Alex is, you know, was he five?
Speaker 3:Five, nine maybe, yeah, a hundred and sixty five pounds now.
Speaker 1:But but kind of being the grinder, that, that he had to fight or where he got to be in the big leagues. But you're in that kind of category, aren't you? Wouldn't you say they had to kind of fight, learn the game, because you've also talked about how you got. You believe you were a better bass runner during, like during batting practice. You took it seriously, you ran the bases, thought about situations.
Speaker 2:Well, and here's another thing that I'll go I'll go back to my upbringing. First of all is I have a group of friends that are like my brothers and we competed every day at something. It could be ping pong, it could be football, it could be basketball, it could be baseball, softball, whatever. We competed every day and we all hated to lose. So the mentality was how am I going to beat you today? And so that was one thing that really helped me in the minor leagues.
Speaker 2:The thing that obviously Michael could attest to is, in the minor leagues, you fail and fail a lot, and and and you know, I played with a lot of talented guys up through the minor leagues that you're like whoa, this guy's going to be good, but don't make it because the failure is so frequent. If you can't figure out a way to overcome the failure and learn from the failure and get better because of the failure, you're not going to keep climbing that ladder. And so I think it was a combination of the two. I mean, I always felt that my mind worked in a way to where, like a kid, I didn't want to lose. So I always felt that I had like ways, I had things in my head how to get out of situations or how to overcome situations, or how to beat you on the other side. And so you know the power thing, you know, when I came up through the minor leagues, you didn't think about power, you thought about hitting 300. You just wanted to hit 300. And so you know, when I was struggling I'd start bombing, you know, because I'm like sitting there thinking I need three hits in these next ten of bats, you know. And so if I'm up there and I'm struggling, I'm not, I'm getting beat by a fastball or chase and breaking balls and we're down two runs late. They see this big Lummox of a third baseman that thinks he can't run. I drop a bunt down. It's a free hit. So now I only got two for nine because I got that free hit, you know. And then I could steal a bag because they didn't think that I could run. You know, I was a sneak attack for me until the team, until the league or the other team got to know you. And so you know, and so I also felt was an asset for me was Not only being aggressive on the bases but being smart on the bases and and figuring out, you know, when you try to steal a bag, or when you go to third, or when you you try to create Offense or create a run.
Speaker 2:And I did the same defensively. I mean, my mind always worked to where I Knew where I was going with the ball. If it was hit to my right at me or to my left, I knew if it was over my head before you know whether it's infield, outfield. I always felt that, like I, every I, was prepared mentally through the minor leagues, that I knew where I was going with the ball on defense, before it was hit, every pit, and I was ready every pitch, not every batter, every pitch. And so to me, I thought that gave me a leg up on some of the more talented kids that came from you know, Better programs or drafted hires or whatever. You know.
Speaker 2:I always felt that like I can beat this guy, I'm not gonna out talent him, but I'm gonna beat him mentally. And, and that's kind of how I went through it, you know, both offensively and defensively. I survived offensively, offensively, because you know I could use the whole field and you know, and I could bun a little bit, and then when I got locked in, I'd, you know, I'd drive the ball and hit ball for the little bit more power. But you know, to me the difference between hitting 250 and 280 in double a was I'd steal 20 buncie, and so to me that's where I could hang in the top 10. Hitting wise is because I, you know, you know, when I struggled I found a way to get on base.
Speaker 1:It. Doesn't it frustrate you when you see guys that maybe even have more talent that? Don't Think that way. It's just the way it is.
Speaker 2:I honestly believe A lot of it. I think has a lot to do with your upbringing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I mean, I mean if you were always a stud and you were always talented and you were always touted to get College offers or you're gonna get drafted and you know, I think those guys, you know, you could sit and point at Hall of Famers that really never had to learn the game because they were just that talented To where their talent was going to get them over the top.
Speaker 2:So, thinking the game wasn't that important to the really good player, the really talented player, thinking the game Was never part of their game because their talent was their game and they, they didn't have to think, they just go up there and react and do what they have to do. And so, um, you know, and I think I know this because I saw some high draft picks that were Just didn't know how to deal with failure because they never failed, you know so they never failed. So that's just like where do we go? And then back then you didn't have a hitting coach, you didn't have a fielding coach, you know they're on your own. I just saw the other day the like the list of you know coaches at the levels that you know.
Speaker 3:That's why the pirates and the amount of people, why you know for most of my career.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, you know mark ballmark. Well, he was our manager. He was a former pitcher and our other coach was spin Williams, who was a pitcher. So there was no hitting coach, there was no infield coach, there was no outfield coach, no catching coach. They'd come around once a month for a week.
Speaker 2:Throughout the system like how mccray taught me a lot and and he was our hitting coordinator when I first signed and he changed my swing, the first instructional league that without him in that 15 minutes in the cage I spent with him, I don't know if I make it out of able, because he taught me something that I didn't know, that like Changed everything you know, you're gonna share it.
Speaker 3:What was it yeah?
Speaker 2:Wow, just using my hands. I mean back then my hands were way back and I had no, I had no negative movement in my swing and I was just yeah.
Speaker 2:I was stiff If my I swung with my whole upper body instead of my hands. I had no hands in my swing, and so when he taught me that, I mean, whoa, it was a whole new world for me. And and so he would only come around, you know, once a month, and if you're going good, he's not even gonna talk to you because he's like, oh, I'm not talking to him, he's swinging the bat. Well, you know. And so to me that was always um, you had to be your own coach?
Speaker 3:Yeah, which I think is different from today, yeah, so many years. Oh my God, so many years or so many voices to two years, right, and I think that makes it really tough, because you don't know how you're going to take it and if you don't go fail and try, you're really not going to learn it. So that's really really cool.
Speaker 1:That was your first instructional 88.
Speaker 2:88 was my first instructional league and, yeah, helmet Craig, I was struggling and I'm thinking, man, what am I going to do? And then he literally brought my hands. My hands were up over my shoulder and back. Yeah, it's a weak position to start from.
Speaker 3:Especially a big guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so he brought my hands inside my front shoulder and down just over my you know, my right peck and all of a sudden I had a rhythm and I had a balance and I had, all of a sudden it's just like man immediate results, Like the next day, and it just felt like, wow, I have all this time.
Speaker 3:And now you look back at it like you think about how powerful that is. Yeah, you're going to get in a fight. That's where you want to be up here. You're kind of lost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're going to throw a punch, you're not going to throw it from your right ear.
Speaker 1:You're going to.
Speaker 2:You're going to throw it from just behind, right behind your right shoulder, and then in the game momentum you're going to take your fist back before you make. That you know before you throw that punch.
Speaker 3:So good, that's what size matters.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because if I'm right here, I'm not going to create that same rhythm. It's going to lock me up and get me tight swinging like this. I had to create it from where I'm coming a little higher and coming down, and that's what's so cool about baseball is like doesn't matter what size you are. You can create leverage and create rhythm depending on what size you are, but the bigger you are, the less you have to really try. Him getting in tight probably made him a force and I got to watch you actually hit from there last year at fitness camp.
Speaker 3:It was fun to see real hands he's still throwing the barrel, you know, finding it. And going back to what you were saying about competing, I think that's a lost art. You know, I don't think guys fail enough, but I also don't think they have to learn through that failure by just figuring out a way to win, and I think that's a dynamite statement by you. Is like, whether it's ping pong, whether it's tennis, whether it's pickleball, it doesn't matter. You got to find a way to win any given day.
Speaker 2:And that's, I guess, the one part that I left out in that whole long explanation of climbing the ladder and figuring out a way. My number one thing was always trying to beat you. I was never. I was not a sore loser, but I never took losing well.
Speaker 2:And so when you talk about frustrating and what you see today, you know, especially with the shifts and the over shifts and everything else like that, like to me, if you're down two or three runs and it's past the fifth inning and you're leading off and they're giving you a hit, take the hit. You know I mean you need base runners, you don't need. You know anything other than getting on base, and to me that was always the golden opportunity to start a comeback by getting guys on base is by not swinging for the fences, not taking, you know, these big crazy swings to try to hit it out of ballpark, but you know trying to find a way to get on base. Same thing with the shifts. And you know you got a runner on first base and you got a right handed hitter up and you got 80 feet to hit a ground ball through the right side to start a rally, but yet there are still just trying to hook the ball and you could just see like the big swings and the chases, whereas in my mind, what also helped me if I was struggling, if I'm at the plate and I'm not swinging the bat well and I feel like I'm pulling off, especially breaking balls, and there's a runner on first and the second baseman is shading me up the middle or back.
Speaker 2:Then it was double play, but depth they were always towards the middle man. That what got me back in was like man, just block this ball on the ground on the right side. I got 80 feet to work with and so what that does, what that allows you to do as a hitter, is you see the ball longer because you're letting the ball travel longer, so you're going to recognize spin, so you're less likely to chase breaking balls. You know, if you get a pitch that's anywhere in the strike zone, it's. So I shouldn't say it's easy, but it was easier for me it is easier, yeah.
Speaker 2:To just just just see the ball longer and block the ball to get on top to the right side and get a base hit. Now you have first and third, nobody out, or one out or whatever. Now you're starting a rally, and so for me that's why I always thought hit and run, which is no longer a big part of baseball, was so huge, because when I got a hit and run, it just made me shorten up, see the ball longer and block the ball the other way, which helped me, because now, all of a sudden, they throw me that slider that's just off the plate down. I'm taking it because I I recognize the speed and spin, instead of trying to pull the fastball. I'm seeing the ball longer. So now I'm in a one-oh count, you know, okay, and I do it again. One-oh, oh, it's a ball. Now I'm two-oh come, and now I could be a little more aggressive. Look for a fastball that I can drive, you know, maybe hit a gap shot or whatever, whereas if I'm just looking to pull from the get-go, I'm oh, one, because I just chased that slider and it's just off the plate down and away. Because you know I'm trying to pull, because I'm pulling a trigger too soon, I'm making a decision too soon. So to me those are the things.
Speaker 2:As far as winning, especially when you're down late in the game, I miss that more than anything in baseball today. Get on base. You can't hit a four-run homer, a three-run homer, you know, with nobody on base. Find a way to get on base, and that drives me insane. Jeff King, who was a really good player for a really long time. He had the Bunt game and it was great. I mean, he drove in. He did. Oh, yeah, he. You know you had a guy on third, less than two outs. The third baseman was back. It was an automatic.
Speaker 2:RBI for Jeff King.
Speaker 3:I love that about him. That's awesome, that's awesome. And then he's a RBI.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing with the guy on third, with the infield back, when guys don't try to hit a ground ball. And again the games changed too much. I don't know how many guys can try to hit a ground ball Like for me, because I wasn't a power guy. I get on top ball, you throw me a fastball bow to high. I can hit a grounder short with the best of them and I didn't drive in many runs, so it's like oh, they're back.
Speaker 3:But going going to that, you get the hit and run and where you see that open space on the right side. You know you said that one thing that really changed your career was moving your hands and creating some rhythm and learn how to use your hands Well, to me I feel like everybody has a default button, so you probably always went back to being a little bit stiff, a little bit muscly, kind of rotational, because you're a big guy. All of a sudden you had that focus and just get to barrel the ball, play a little pepper, and then that puts you back in that good headspace. You're seeing the ball longer, but you're also not trying to do as much, right? So it does so much for you because it gets you away from what you naturally maybe want to do, because you did it your entire life 100%.
Speaker 2:It's funny. I remember a specific moment when Greg was there. I was in Buffalo in the early 90s and I was scuffling. I got called up in 91. I had a terrible spring in 92 and they sent me back down and I was playing a little second base then, which was fun. They had me play second base in spring training. That's kind of where my utility career started and I was scuffling early and I literally remember this vividly. I was in the shower and Thinking I'm not hitting a ball left the second base. Today I will not hit a ball left the second base today.
Speaker 2:I'm not a bad habit to die in the shower, yeah the stubbornness and I went to the ballpark and took batting practice that day and then you know I went to the game and I'm like I will not hit a ball left the second base and how much time I had to hit that day. It got me started. I went four for five and one. Yeah, that day I had four for five. I had. I had two hits Between the first and second baseman. I had a hanging slider in the left center gap and I think I hit one in the right center gap. So I did hit one the left center.
Speaker 2:But the mentality yeah and then that puts you in a position to drive that mistake pitch, whereas the day before that hanging slider I'm hooking it foul or hitting a one hop or the third base. You know, that day I'm inside it because my approach and my mentality was Block the ball the other way and that got me going. You know that. That got me hot and Got me called back up again. I think it was only three or four weeks after that where I was back in a big one.
Speaker 1:But you did that on your own, like you're the yeah, like nobody's.
Speaker 2:Well, again, no offense it was. It was Mark bombard and spin Williams were our coaches.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they're talking about the spin of the bitch, yeah they don't care about him, yeah. You think too rock about and and Michael, you can appreciate this is he's so down to earth, so understated, you know, and Humble.
Speaker 2:I don't know about now. All I've done is talk about myself. Well, that's selfish.
Speaker 1:That's the purpose. You're here, baby, that's why you're here, but I didn't realize rock that Because I think part of it is and I remember talking to Jackie Brown triple a buffalo pitching coach.
Speaker 2:We were.
Speaker 1:Jackie 91 and he and I would love to discuss Because I didn't get it the weeds about pitching instead as a former big league pitcher for like ten years Not good one, jackie Brown, the late great Jackie Brown but I was fascinated by the Human element, the mentality of players who were so humble coming up, and I would get to know all of them, buffalo for five years, got to know you and others. They'd go up to the big leagues and sometimes they'd come back down rehab or the motion, whatever it might be. But for whatever reason, it still fascinates me to this day. What is it that changes them as a human being? But I don't know what the percentage is now. Back then he and I this Jackie, a former big leaguer believe the same thing that Something changes in a person, in the man.
Speaker 1:You never changed and I think had maybe, but lots to do with your upbringing, maybe it didn't matter, the you grew up in in care, that's the big part of it. But only one year of all your years and 13 pro seasons did you spend an entire year I think this is true in the major leagues, 1996, is that right? That's correct. Have think about that, wow. Every single year, john wainer would at some point return to his minor league roots. You talk about staying grounded. How could you not do? You think that's important?
Speaker 2:Well, it was important in your yeah, I got parts of 11 years in the big leagues. So, yes, in 10 of those 11 years I spent time in the minor leagues and and here's the way I looked at it Other than my rookie year where I came up and after like three or four days, I played every day at the big league level, which was the most incredible thing. I'll go off in a little bit of a tangent. The year before it was 90 91, they were in 90, they were in the playoffs for the first time in a while in Cincinnati and me and Tommy.
Speaker 1:Yeah we drove to Cincinnati to watch the playoffs you know, and so as a man, john wainer as a fan. Now he's in the minor league system of the fires, but he had a buddy a group here. I didn't see the pirates in the national league championships.
Speaker 2:So I went as a fan to watch the first two games in Cincinnati, then I we drove back to Pittsburgh and then I flew to Mexico to play the winter ball. And so now think about, so July of the next year, I get called up to the big leagues, and not only could call it up, I'm playing every day for one of the best teams in baseball and it was the most amazing thing ever to play on that team. I mean, it was just the incredible thrill. But I had the back surgery. I'm back in the minor leagues. In 92, whatever the thing I loved most about baseball was playing baseball.
Speaker 2:Okay, so 92 I told you, I went to spring training. After, at 91, I got hurt. King had a bad back. I got hurt. They traded for Steve Bouchel, they signed Steve Bouchel to a contract. So I went back the next year in spring training after my back surgery, as the third third baseman. So I'm not playing third base anymore. And so that's when Jim Leland said we wanna try it first and second. I played second. So then they said well, go down to AAA and play first and second, which I did and moved around, which was awesome. But back to your question. I was born to play baseball. I loved playing baseball. I was a utility player in 92 and 93 and 94, the rest of my career. So when I got sent back to the minor leagues, guess what I got to do.
Speaker 3:You got to play, I got to play, amen.
Speaker 2:And so for me it was awesome.
Speaker 1:I mean, I mean, I get to play every day.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Instead of trying to figure it out once a week, twice a month or pinch hitting against the closer, I got to play every day and get four bats every day. So to me it was a thrill to go back. The only thing that was bad was the salary sucked, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But you're a guy that signed as soon as Sid Threff said that.
Speaker 3:Well, he started to negotiate. And then his agent, his mom. She said, just take the deal.
Speaker 1:You talked about like 91. So your debut, july 17th 91, against Houston River Stadium, carrick kid how about that? Michael McHenry, john Wainer comes in, grew up a pirate fan Year before it's September. He's watching his pirates Amazing, and now he's playing you. Double switch to the ninth inning at third base. It's a 10-2 game and you're first at bat. I think Rock you grounded out to third, if I'm not mistaken, against Al O'Souna, is that right?
Speaker 2:It's a deep short. It was Al O'Souna. Joe West was the umpire at first. I beat the frickin' throw.
Speaker 1:Wow, so replay, had it been in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, joe West screwed me Wow, joe West was never going to give a hit to a rookie Right out of the gate. Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, come on.
Speaker 2:Joe, I was so good at that. I was so good at grounding the short. That one was to the left of the shortstop where I thought I beat it my next day. I'm sure you're going to get to that against Tom Browning. I don't know if it's the next day, but it was my next at bat and I hit a ground ball to the left of the shortstop and I beat that one, but the ball went away. So that was my first hit. Another grounded short, my last hit. You earned it, though. My last hit in the big leagues was a grounded short and I beat out. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Oh, I could do that, so it started that way and ended that way, told you, I could hit a ground ball short.
Speaker 1:With the best of them. So yeah, but what was it like first of all, that first at bat through a stadium and your name is announced? Come to the ball. Go to the plate, tim DeBackel the P&L.
Speaker 3:This is where you had your legion all-star trial 38,000 fans.
Speaker 1:38,000 fans.
Speaker 3:Right, I mean, this is his trade ball part Everybody's there.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was so surreal, so mind-boggling, the nerves that I had in my body I've never felt before. I was numb, I had cold sores, because I get cold sores from stress. I had cold sores. It's just that the first at bat I wasn't one to take pitches. So I'm just, I'm amazed when I see rookies come up for their first at bat and they take pitches. I don't know how. Because, I'm just up there swinging and Osuna threw me a change up, browning threw me a change up and it took me.
Speaker 3:They knew, they knew you were ready to hit.
Speaker 2:But I remember, you know Carrick, there was a big sign, carrick Pride, and Riggs, a guy from Carrick, had that and, like, all my friends were there and family of course, and it just was so surreal, it was just so overwhelming to be here to get called up. I mean, I still think I'll never forget the day, terry Collins. I played every inning, every game in the Mayan leagues until I got called up and Terry Collins pulled me out in the seventh inning. We were in Des Moines, iowa, after the seventh inning and I'm like why is he taking me out? And I was like I thought I got in trouble.
Speaker 2:I thought I got in trouble, I thought I did something wrong, and I'll never forget that feeling. And from that moment that Terry Collins says you're getting called up to the big leagues to walk, I remember every moment. I was like I ran into the who were you playing in? Des Moines, by the way.
Speaker 1:I was playing in third base Third base?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't play any-. Is that Taylor Stadium, des Moines, iowa?
Speaker 1:Yes, the Bison's AAA affiliate of the Pirates.
Speaker 2:And I'll never forget. I'm jogging off the field and then, just like numb, steve Carter was in left field and Steve Carter said congrats, man. And I remember everything so vividly. That's crazy. And then, from that moment to getting to Pittsburgh and my mom and meeting her at the airport and just the ride to home and being back in Carrick and just thinking I'm gonna drive to three river stadium to play Major League Baseball.
Speaker 1:It was just so-. Did you sleep in your own bed?
Speaker 3:I did of course he slept in his own bed. Could you For like?
Speaker 2:two days, Wow. And then I was like I needed somewhere else. Yeah, no doubt, no doubt, and so then Greg Johnson the great I'm the secretary Great Greg Johnson put me up at the Hilton. I was there for two days and it was just as bad. And, man, I wish I remembered this gentleman's name. I met him before and he had a hotel up in Harmerville, pa. I literally went and stayed for a week in Harmerville, pa.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 2:Cause I couldn't get a moment's peace, phones ringing off the hook, everybody's going crazy. So I went and you know, until we went on the road, I went to Harmerville, pa, staying at the best Western, cause it's still a career, it's still your career, oh my gosh, it was so overwhelming that moment, the moment you step on the field. And this is a story that you probably heard before, but I think it's worth telling, cause it's just like think about it, carrick, going through the stuff, getting the call Dirt infield, dirt infield, all that stuff. I used to take a bus by myself down here to the north side to watch the Pirates play. My mom and dad grew up blocks from here, literally blocks from here in Manchester, like Reed'sdale Street. My mother lived on Reed'sdale Street so you could ride a bike.
Speaker 2:Well, no, that was before I was remember it was before my mom had me, but she you know Reed'sdale Street, which was just a couple blocks away, and so this whole moment of getting called up. And about a week or so before I got called up, the Pirates were on the road. Jim Leland had some heart like chest pains, Okay, and so they had an emergency landing in Columbus. I think they were going to Sinsey and that must have been how serious it was. I might have this wrong, but I'm pretty sure they were only going to Sinsey. They landed in Columbus because they couldn't wait 15 minutes to get to Sinsey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Because they take them off and he has chest pains. He checks out, okay. Well, I got called up like a week after that. So now when I walk into that clubhouse and again I'm looking around and I don't I know Randy Tomlin, a little bit of Verlandum are said, and I don't know anybody else, and I don't know what to do with myself. I'm there early and, like these guys have been in the playoffs for you know, and they're, they're great and they're superstars, and I'm like, what am I going to do? So I'm just walking around waiting for BP to start her stretch. And so I walk into the lunchroom and just kind of look around. And then Jim Leland walks into the lunchroom. You haven't seen him yet. I haven't seen him. No shirt, underwear. He walks into the lunchroom, he looks up and he goes where Shit heard you were coming, almost at a heart attack and he walked out. I swear to you, that was my introduction.
Speaker 3:It just ran off.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, have you revisited that with him over the years?
Speaker 2:Yes, of course I have that's great. Oh, he's coming. He's sitting there like what the fuck are these.
Speaker 1:Not even big leagues. What a line.
Speaker 3:The Hall of Fame. What was your initial thought right after that? Like what do I do now?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm already like looking for things to do. I just grabbed a sandwich and went back to my locker and ate it. That's so good.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, it's so great having John Wainer on Hold. My Cutter Rock thanks for being with us. It's tremendous.
Speaker 2:That's it already For now. I talked like the whole 45 minutes are over, don't?
Speaker 3:worry about it. Hey, don't think you're not going to be on here a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just hold the cutter. Hold the baseball, and then I'll hold the cigar cutter. But join us for our next episode of Hold my Cutter, tommy, tommy.