Hold My Cutter
Extra Innings with Bob Walk
Ever wondered what it feels like to hurl a fastball through elbow pain, or the split-second decisions that define the outcome of a baseball game? Bob Walk, the Whirly Bird himself, joins us with a trove of stories from his days on the mound, including one harrowing start against the Dodgers just five days post-injury. Laugh and wince with us as Bob takes us behind the scenes of the humor and the grit that comes with playing professional baseball at the highest level.
Step up to the plate and prepare for a deep dive into the world of baseball strategy and the unseen dance between pitcher and catcher. We explore everything from the clandestine use of visual signals to the prospect of having an eye in the sky, akin to football's coordinators. Bob and I share our perspectives on hitting, the sheer velocity of events on the diamond, and how technology like FlightScope and TrackMan is rewriting the rulebook on how the game is played and analyzed.
In our candid conversation, we don't shy away from the shadowy corners of baseball's unwritten rules – from the use of scuffed balls to sticky substances, and how these dark arts are being policed in the modern game. Reflecting on the new rules aimed to quicken the pace of play, we question their impact and muse over the future of baseball as technology continues to reshape the old-school instincts that once dominated the sport. Join us for this full-count pitch of an episode, where we discuss the evolution of baseball with humor, nostalgia, and a keen eye on where America's pastime is heading.
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING!!!!
www.holdmycutter.com
Ever wondered what it feels like to hurl a fastball through elbow pain, or the split-second decisions that define the outcome of a baseball game? Bob Walk, the Whirly Bird himself, joins us with a trove of stories from his days on the mound, including one harrowing start against the Dodgers just five days post-injury. Laugh and wince with us as Bob takes us behind the scenes of the humor and the grit that comes with playing professional baseball at the highest level.
Step up to the plate and prepare for a deep dive into the world of baseball strategy and the unseen dance between pitcher and catcher. We explore everything from the clandestine use of visual signals to the prospect of having an eye in the sky, akin to football's coordinators. Bob and I share our perspectives on hitting, the sheer velocity of events on the diamond, and how technology like FlightScope and TrackMan is rewriting the rulebook on how the game is played and analyzed.
In our candid conversation, we don't shy away from the shadowy corners of baseball's unwritten rules – from the use of scuffed balls to sticky substances, and how these dark arts are being policed in the modern game. Reflecting on the new rules aimed to quicken the pace of play, we question their impact and muse over the future of baseball as technology continues to reshape the old-school instincts that once dominated the sport. Join us for this full-count pitch of an episode, where we discuss the evolution of baseball with humor, nostalgia, and a keen eye on where America's pastime is heading.
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING!!!!
www.holdmycutter.com
Well, we're here at Spring Training Greg Brown, mike and McHenry and some people say that, hold, mike Cutter is nothing to crow about. Well, we think otherwise. We think this is a really cool show coming up with Bob Walk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's outstanding. You get to know Bob Walk in a completely different way. I really enjoyed it. I think you're going to absolutely love it.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, his nickname Whirly Bird. So to hold my cutter here with our special guest Bob Walk, michael McHenry on hand here at the burn by Rocky Patel. I always want to thank the general manager, jim Fisher, assistant GM Ken Stout and our events coordinator, melissa Ward Leonard, handling the controls here with us and Bob. We talked in a previous episode. By the way, nice outfit you have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the previous episode. I had a great time. It's great to have you back. It's a good look shirt. You look good in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good coffee too, it's really good coffee, hey, you know what it is. It's that full circle we talked about. We're very consistent.
Speaker 1:We talked last time with Bob about going full circle and still enjoying the featured smoke, the LB1 medium bodied roll mix of two Nicaraguan fillers, canega and the Astelli I believe it is the Ecuadorian Havana wrapper little red pepper notes, some chocolate notes and a little creamy finish to it as well.
Speaker 3:Did you pick this, or did someone suggest?
Speaker 1:it. It was suggested. I said let's go with it.
Speaker 2:No, he's working on rolling his own. He's been, yeah, yeah, he's growing his own tobacco. He's trying to roll it. I don't know if you just saw that he did that completely from memory.
Speaker 3:He's been rolling his own since he was 19. Yeah, that's exactly right, not true.
Speaker 1:That's factually incorrect. Hey, we talked about a lot of your career and something that happened. We talked off Mike, off camera, about the 1984 season and toward the end of July, you start to feel something in your elbow, can you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I've now gone to Hawaii.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 3:I've fished very well.
Speaker 1:I've fished very well in Hawaii.
Speaker 3:But for the first time since I was at college, at the Canyons, I'm having what they call nowadays in the beer league, not college at the Canyons.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah.
Speaker 1:You're out of there pretty much.
Speaker 2:Well, my elbow was barking.
Speaker 3:But see, how old am I now I'm probably. I see 23 and 80. So now I'm I don't know 27. I'm trying to get back to the big leagues. My lips are like like this when it comes to like oh, I'm not feeling this, I'm not feeling that I tell anybody anything. So I'm, I'm eating a lot of a scripting and what?
Speaker 2:was it? What was the choice back in the day?
Speaker 3:Well, I can't remember. Now I came a little tiny, tiny bottles. It's like it's over the counter thing.
Speaker 1:now I can't remember the name of it back then and I was eating those all the time.
Speaker 3:And they always help. I was fine. But anyway, to get to your question, my first game as a Pittsburgh pirate after being called up, I was against the Dodgers and all around the seventh or eighth inning.
Speaker 2:Mind you, he said seventh or eighth inning.
Speaker 3:My elbow is starting to bother me a little bit, but again, I'm not going to tell anybody. And I thought about it in the eighth. I was sitting down there to far in the dugout. I can remember actually kind of just going like this, just kind of massaging it a little bit and looking down and seeing Chuck there and I go no, I can't, I can't, I can't.
Speaker 1:Chuck Tanner.
Speaker 3:I can't. Yeah, I go. I got one more inning, I'll get through this inning and then five days later I'll be fine. It's been sore before down in Hawaii, but it always got through it and this is.
Speaker 1:I would prefer it.
Speaker 3:Naperson was the name of that stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just like could you tell the difference of sore to it actually hurting.
Speaker 3:I could a couple of hitters. Later I went back out there and put you for the pirates. Yeah, I don't know if it was the first hitter. Might have been the second hitter, I can't remember. But uh, social was. Mike social left handed hitter Dodgers. I tried to kind of turn over a fastball a little bit, try to get the rundown away from him and I felt my elbow pop and it popped and pop and then that was.
Speaker 1:Tommy John surgery. That's what they feel.
Speaker 3:So they, they come out ligament torn. You know, I said I don't know, I think I felt something in my elbow. Uh, they go. Well, you want to throw one to see what's going on. So I went to throw one and it went about 15 feet over the catcher's head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no field yeah.
Speaker 3:It was just like. As soon as it got right about here, it was like ah, and I just had to let go of the ball.
Speaker 2:So that's the worst feeling, by the way, when you're catching and you see that happen, you know like.
Speaker 3:Here's another thing that like doesn't happen. I think anymore. Here I am. I can't throw the ball from the mound to the catcher. I talk him in the. Let me start five days later.
Speaker 2:That's outstanding, though it's unbelievable. I go out there.
Speaker 3:Once again negotiating yeah, I go out there and pitch two innings against the Padres and throwing a ball about maybe 80 miles an hour Maybe.
Speaker 2:I don't know Now it's though.
Speaker 3:Sidearm curve balls. I'm like it's crazy.
Speaker 1:It's hurting. It's hurting bad.
Speaker 3:I actually struck out Steve Garvey. I was like what the hell are you thinking about? But I also gave up a couple of runs in those first two innings. So now I'm sitting there and it's the bottom of the second and it's obvious that I am hurting bad Are they saying anything to you at this point, nobody's saying a word.
Speaker 2:I was like Bob, some drop down song, the only yeah, you're getting weird.
Speaker 3:The only person that said anything to me, milt May, was the backup catcher then and Milt wore me up in the bullpen. We didn't have bullpen catchers then. It was a backup catcher, always did that, and it was about halfway through or something, or three quarter, I'm about ready. And he goes are you sure you want to do this? And I'm like, yeah, I got to do it, so I went out there. So then now it's two to nothing. We get a couple of guys on my spot comes up in the bottom of the second and I went down to Chuck. I said, chuck, I think it's obvious to everybody that I can't pitch and except to you, chuck.
Speaker 1:I go. No, no, no, no.
Speaker 3:No, no, no.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no. I love you.
Speaker 2:But there's two guys on radar guns to show these.
Speaker 3:There's two guys on. No, it was I test.
Speaker 3:You could see that a little off to it. There's two guys on base. I said this is a chance that you guys can undo the damage I did to start this game. And so he said he goes. All right, he goes, I just wanted it to be your choice. And I said, yeah, I go, I'm done. So he let Rick Rowden went up to pinch hit for me. He was an excellent hitter, yeah, and he used him a lot early in games. And so that was the end of my 1984 season. I never touched a baseball again until next spring training.
Speaker 1:So back then the team orthodontic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, jack Frayla.
Speaker 1:Jack, we had a little talk.
Speaker 3:And I was going to get an injection. That was a big thing back then. I gave you a course on shot. So I'm in not in his office, but in a room out at pass of it and he comes in and the nurse brings in this tray and it's got needles that are like four feet long.
Speaker 1:And that's like oh gosh this is not going to be good and that little space too.
Speaker 2:I'm looking at those needles.
Speaker 3:And then Jack comes in, he has a little talk with me and he goes. You know you're not pitching anymore this year, you're done. So really he goes. I don't think we should even mess with the court his own or anything, he'll shoot you up. He goes why don't we just try and let this heal on its own, naturally? And he goes by next spring training. He goes I think you'll be fine. And I'm looking at that needle and I'm saying, yeah, that's a good idea.
Speaker 2:Have you had a court of zone shot?
Speaker 1:I have, but I've never looked at the needle.
Speaker 2:I almost passed out when they pulled it on my back. They go to a needle.
Speaker 1:I closed my eyes.
Speaker 3:I don't want to see it. I didn't know this then, but I ended up having like four or five of them in my career. So, yeah, it's like no, there's no fun. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I always wonder like how'd they get that needle in like six inches? Yeah Right, where's the bone? I don't have bones in there, I don't ever. I'm sure they hit every bone, but anyway the uh.
Speaker 3:so that was it, I was, I was done till next spring. I could still fill it and spring training and and Chuck, smarter than you think, he noticed that we, we know, we can see that you're still not right, so he goes. You're going to have to go down to a triple. Y and pitch and put a tough.
Speaker 1:What a tough.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah and prove that you're healthy and we'll bring you back. So I went down to Hawaii and pitch great again and you know, I think that might have been another ERA year for me that that second year in the PCL again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's our kidding on like as a header. That's like playing on the moon.
Speaker 3:You know, you know how I don't keep a lot of memorabilia.
Speaker 1:I very well. I'm aware of that.
Speaker 3:There's somewhere at my house. I cut out the Sunday stats team stats of the Y Islanders out of the Honolulu Gazette or whatever they called it, and I kept them because it's well into the year. Now it's like June and I'm leading our team in ERA. I'm also leading the team in batting average.
Speaker 2:Come on.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to be like 360 or something like that. Did you keep that clipping anywhere? Yeah, I still have it somewhere, I don't know why I got that. I got that and also I had three stolen bases at that point. Come on Again. Thanks to Tommy Sand.
Speaker 1:Wow, tommy Sand was the manager of the Hawaii Islanders, did you send that?
Speaker 2:back to your community college coach.
Speaker 3:No, he should have. I. I made a deal with Tommy. Do you remember? They had these T-shirts. They gave them on our leaguers If they stole 20 bases. They got a T-shirt that said running bucks. Well, I stole the third after Tommy got thrown out of the game during the during the meeting at home plate. So he was up in the press box during this and actually he told me to he was going to get thrown out. He goes. I don't want this to throw you off your game, but while you're walking in from the bullpen, I'm going to be getting thrown out at the home plate.
Speaker 3:I said, okay, it's cool.
Speaker 1:Great Tommy Sand.
Speaker 3:So nobody was paying attention to me. They were trying to bump me over from third base, from second base to third, like nobody out, and they put a wheel play on, pitch her through a ball, chuck it. But shortstop went to third on the wheel play, third baseman charged home and ball one. So now what happens? Shortstop starts walking back to his position. The third baseman stops and looks in their dugout to see the signs of if the wheel plays still on. So I'm watching this.
Speaker 1:There's no better, no attention to you.
Speaker 3:So I just he's walking to third. I just well, I kind of jog pretty quickly over to third base. And so Tommy is up in the stands and he's like going crazy, up there he goes. I saw it. He told me after the game he goes. I knew you were going to do it. I'm looking down, I see it, then I go, he's going to run, he's going to go, and sure enough he goes, you went. So then because I did that, I go. You know, I kind of know what's going on out there on the bases. I go. I'm just a pitcher, but I got a good feel when I'm not being paid attention to because I'm a pitcher, I go. If you let me run, I go, I can steal bases. And so I and he said, ok, because you get the green light, you can run whatever you want. And so I stole two more bases, legitimate first to second, because they don't hold on pictures, they play behind pitchers. So, and then, after, after I saw three bases, I said I want one of those t-shirts. And he goes well.
Speaker 1:You got to see like 20.
Speaker 3:And he and he goes and I said I can't steal. When am I going to? I can't, I'm not going to have 20 more starts. So he made a deal with me. He says if you still five, I'll get you one of the t-shirts. But then I got called to the big leagues. I didn't get any more.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, oh my gosh, you would have gotten it, so I missed out.
Speaker 2:I'd still have that t-shirt if I wanted one of those, it would have been right next to that clipping you had.
Speaker 3:No, no, I'm slow as a snail.
Speaker 1:I was wondering if you were looking up the Tommy up at the press box after you'd stolen third base, because I know there was a time you looked up to the press box.
Speaker 2:That's one of my favorite stories.
Speaker 3:All right, here we go. I'll tell this one to Rex Hudler for the expose. At the time he slid in a home plate, took out Spanky's knee. Spanky's done it for the season. So one day before game on pitching, and he's like, hey, I'm going to be up in the stand or up in the press box today. He goes, if you have wonder what you should throw, look up there. He goes, I'll tell you, because we're always arguing about, because I'm always shaking. No, catchers don't know anything Catchers don't know anything.
Speaker 2:So he's trying to get it off.
Speaker 3:He's trying to give it a little dig at me. So later on in the game Joe Carter's up and I throw him a bad hanging curveball bell high and he hits it into the upper deck at three river stadium but about 10 foot, foul it way back into the upper deck and I'm like now what am I going to throw? I could just crush that curveball. I know he can smoke my fastball. What am I going to do? And then I remember our conversation with Spanky. So I look up to see if I can find him and here he is.
Speaker 3:Of course you find him. He's easy to find because he's hanging over the ledge and he's going like this Curveball Cookie. So I'm like, okay, he knows, if I throw two in a row, good chance that the second curveball is going to be a good one, not another hanger. I throw him a really good one down about ankle high. He swings right over the top of it for strike three. I look up and tip my hat to him.
Speaker 2:He's probably had a couple of coffees. Probably had a coffee A couple coffees.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking that's outstanding. How cool would it be to have that. Why is it that in football you can have all these coordinators and all these coaches up in the press box. Why not a manager or coach up in the press box?
Speaker 3:Chuck Tanner tried that in Atlanta. What happened? He had Tony Barter on up there. He was the eye in the sky. He called him the eye in the sky. He sat up there. Back then the two-way community had a size of a loaf of bread with a stick out of it, he would talk into it, talk about where he saw the outfielders playing. We need to move the center field all over and stuff down to that thing. That's the only I've ever heard of anybody doing something like that.
Speaker 2:I've heard of a couple teams. They call it the 10,000-foot view. They have guys whether it's the broadcasters or somebody but they write a report. They come down after the game, give their two cents on what they've seen. I've also heard person third because they get a different look. They could see it in the stands.
Speaker 1:Well, I hear everybody always says it looks easier from up there.
Speaker 3:Well, the game is so much slower from up there it's slower you just like you can see it. So that first pop-up.
Speaker 2:What were your reactions?
Speaker 1:by the way, it's usually the absolute mark, so what were your reactions, bob and Michael, the first time you were up in the broadcast booth after playing all those years, did it look weird? You remember that? No, I don't think it looked weird, certainly different. Yeah, you know, you were on the field for those years and all of a sudden you're up there, right yeah, and you say it looks slower. It looks slower, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because you can like. You know, when you're down there, especially in the infield on an astroturf field, everything's happening fast, Very fast game, and when you got up there it just it looks easier because it looks like it's a slower game, Like an NFL football player would probably say this more than anybody, because it must be unbelievable chaos at the snap of that football. Everything is happening at once there's no time to think about anything, it's like, but now you're watching it on TV and you're going. What's he doing?
Speaker 3:You know, but it can't. It's not like that. I'm sure when you're getting hit by cars, baseball is a little similar, but not nearly like that, but it's still. You know the same thing, especially when you're watching a center field camera. The pitch is going in. You know let's go to the ball and there it is, so they can hit that. They get that. That ball gets from your hand to the catcher's glove in four tenths of a second. Okay, you got to decide to swing before that ball is halfway there. She got two tenths of a second to say swing or don't.
Speaker 1:You wonder what they say I don't know, it's gotta be impossible to hit. It's impossible to hit, it's crazy Impossible to hit yeah, so true.
Speaker 3:As a pitcher. When you're up there hitting, I made up my mind whether to swing or not swing when the pitcher was looking for the sign. That's why I'm gonna swing at this one, because that's the only way. I couldn't like sit there and look and see the ball and say, oh yeah, I'm gonna swing that. No, it's way too fast. That looked like that on TV. But when you're standing in that box, there's no way. Guys. I've heard a hitter say oh, it's like the shadows and this. I can't see the spin on the ball. Who's looking at the spin of the ball? I can't see the ball.
Speaker 2:When you went back out on the mound you had to think about that, right? No, you thought about everything else. So often we forget when we're on the other side how hard it really is.
Speaker 3:I've had guys come in and tell me hey, we can't see when we're up there. It's like a four o'clock game. We got the shadows, can't see. He goes, just go right after these guys and I'm sitting there. Yeah, I'll just pump fastballs into these guys. I'll be out here for four hitters. There's no way.
Speaker 2:Did you ever?
Speaker 3:try it. I went through one inning in my life throwing nothing but fastballs.
Speaker 2:I felt like with the shadows you couldn't see spin. So if you throw me a heater, I feel like that's giving me a favor. I just I remember them saying that.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, maybe well, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And then Ryan Brown hit a ball in the second deck and I was like, well, he seems to be able to see it. No, he had those big old eyes but, he seemed to be able to see it just fine.
Speaker 3:I love it when I'm up there in the booth and I'm saying, oh, look at, the shadows are coming in, guys won't be able to hit the seed and it's like eight to five in the fifth inning. I mean, everybody's seeing the ball really well. Yeah, the other way the glass is two.
Speaker 2:I don't know how they do that. It's mind boggling. You know what boggled my mind, being up in the booth kind of what you were saying with Tanner is I literally was sitting there and was like why did I not bunt more and why did I not still basis? Because you see the positioning, especially as a shift came in and all the weird positioning came in with analytics, I was like I could have walked a third base.
Speaker 3:See, I'm the opposite. I see guys throwing balls this far off the plate away and they're getting called balls and I'm going. Well, I couldn't pitch in this league, Because I need that plate. I want that plate as wide as this table.
Speaker 2:When did that change?
Speaker 3:Okay, now this is the truth. I'm not. I'm making jokes, but this is not a joke. Some umpires, and especially with some pitchers, the plate probably was as wide, but the strike zone is only about this tall. Nowadays it's gone like this the strike zone is not nearly as wide as it used to be, but you can throw a ball at the catcher's forehead and have a call to strike. That was a foot high back in the day, so I think it's a lot easier For me. It's a lot easier to pitch with a wide plate and a little short strike zone. I would much rather have that. Maybe that's because of what I was used to.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. I'm telling you right now it's way harder to cover east to west than is north to south, but it is.
Speaker 3:I will say this when you turn the strike zone up and it's like a lot taller than it is wide, that high fastball, that's a game changer, because they used to just ball, ball, ball, Now you got to swing at it.
Speaker 2:Listen, it looks like Skittles to me. You got to swing at it every time you got to swing at it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know you could take that, it was a ball, but not now. It's strike one, strike two, strike three. You got to do something about it. That's why I've always said about the like pitching inside is not trying to throw at people, it's throwing strikes right on that inside corner. Now it's harder to do now because it's not as wide, but if you're throwing strikes on the inside corner, that change is what the hitter needs to do now. He can't just sit there. You know. He can't say, okay, I'm not going to jam myself, I'm not going to, I'm just going to take that pitch. What if you take it? This was a 0-1, 0-2, 0-1. So you have to change your approach in order to hit, in order to get the fat part of the bat out there, to hit that inside pitch. And if you do that, if you make that change and the catcher and I can see that you've made that change now we're going out there and now the head of the bat is out here, but the pitch is out there and it's going slower.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it looks like it's 48 feet away from me, because you've opened up that space inside.
Speaker 3:And I hate this term old days, but we called that and I don't hear anybody say this much more. I still use it a little bit. You speed up the bat, Look out, and it's a bad term because the bat's not going any faster or slower, but they're going to swing earlier to be able to hit that inside pitch. And once you speed up the bat then you can go to the slow stuff you know what you did to me.
Speaker 2:If you did that to me, you sped up my mind. It's not my bat, right, I'm already quick. If you can get me to either swing at it or take it and I make a move and you're like I think he's thinking about it. That ball away, even if it's on the black or even the outer third. It looks like it's so far away, especially if you throw it down and away. I think that's the best pitch of baseball. I don't think it's thrown enough.
Speaker 3:It's down and away and if you can hit strikes out there, that is slowing down the bat. No doubt Because now the guys are having the weight to make good, solid head of the bat, contact at pitches away from them and slower pitches, and now you can live inside.
Speaker 2:All right, I have a question. I've asked this to a couple.
Speaker 3:This is simple. It's simplicity, yeah, but it works.
Speaker 2:It does work. You've watched 30 years of baseball with the Pirates. You've watched probably close to 30 years of baseball period. How many fastballs down and away, knee high, have you seen? Leave the yard.
Speaker 3:Handful Some. Yeah, yeah, there you go. There's not many.
Speaker 2:You may see a breaking ball, a guy gets out, but when that?
Speaker 3:happens, what that happens, that tells you right away. He has no respect for your inside fastball.
Speaker 2:Correct. But that pitch, even if you know it's coming, I mean Tom Glav and Greg Maddox. I mean I lived out there and they earned a little bit more plate and that's what I miss about the game. I know people love the automated strike, so in the thought of it, but I miss the chance to earn If you're out there and you're just dotting up and that own part is getting locked in and we're going an inch inch and a half, two inches. I love that part of the game.
Speaker 3:I miss it. When I got to the ballpark on the day I was pitching, way before I would look at the other team's lineup, look at the on-park, I wanted to see who's behind the plate. I love it Because that would have a little bit of a. I would kind of know a little bit about how my day's gonna go. Yeah, by who's the on-park.
Speaker 2:Was there guys?
Speaker 3:that liked you and didn't like you. Yeah, there's guys that like me, there's guys that don't like me. There's guys that are pitchers on-pires, there's guys that are hitters on-pires. Hitters on-pires they called the strikes on a little smaller Pitchers on-pires. They called that a little wider and you just kind of knew what was gonna happen.
Speaker 2:Have you ever heard about my first start? Did we talk about that? So my first start Jeff Suipan. He's 14, 15 years in we're in St Louis. I've played maybe in three games, had a couple of bats. It's my first time in the big leagues I get to start. I'm hitting three hole. Jeff Suipan's on the mound pumping about 83. He has a 48-inch plate. I swear he throws seven innings and scoreless. He's really, really good. I strike out four times that day.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we're talking about that.
Speaker 2:There was no chance. And the on-park told me it's like this is his day, it's his last game in the big leagues, you better be swinging. And I swung at everything I could Until I just physically was like no way, no way, he's called strike three Strike. There I struck out looking three times against Suipan. They brought in a reliever and I swung at everything he threw. If he would have thrown the Rosenbach walkie I would have swung at it. It's the same thing. You gotta understand who the umpire is. Now they get the scout report, which is wild to me because that was actually illegal when I was playing. You couldn't get that report. Now they get it. But yeah, you used to have notes and understand and kind of butter them up. Try to get more.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, great job staying with that right there. The National League was what? 12 teams and so and the National League umpires were the National League umpires. If you were on first name basis and knew every one of them really well, you didn't need to take notes. You know exactly who was back there, exactly what was happening. I used to love Frank Polly, not because Frank had a real big strike zone or anything like that, but he was a guy that didn't want you barking at him he didn't like that at all and that If he missed a pitch you got the ball back and you didn't say anything to him. He knew that. Okay, he knew he goes.
Speaker 3:I find this one there, yeah he goes and he didn't get the ball back and stare at me or go like where was that? Or anything like that. So as long as I don't react, he'll probably give me one later on. And then, soon as I see a hitter, turn and look at him and say something inside I'm laughing.
Speaker 2:I'm like, ah, there goes my plate, it just wind up yeah he just made my day a little late.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mel May had a great story with Frank, as I love Frank. Mel didn't care for him because he was behind the plate one day and he said something to Frank about you know you're missing pitches. You know my guys don't better than that. Mel's catching this, yeah. And so he said I'm behind the plate, he goes. The next pitch is just right down. I mean just perfect, right there. And he goes. Frank gets down, ben's over, gets in my ear and goes ball oh.
Speaker 3:He goes do it again. It's a perfect strike. Frank bends down and goes ball too. That's why I love Frank.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's outstanding.
Speaker 1:Those days are gone.
Speaker 2:I'll never forget I was a young buck in Jill West. Somebody turned around and just starts laying into him. I know exactly who. It was back camp and he goes just get it anywhere, oh yeah, anywhere outside. And I mean it was a foot and a half outside Camp, started to go, didn't go, rang him up, tossed him. I was like that was awesome. He was like yeah, you don't talk to me like that son.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's old school, that's old school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he almost threw me out of the game because the way I took care of my glove, I'll never forget it. I always put shaving cream in my glove before the game. Domet did it and it did make my glove tacky and it helped my pitchers Not gonna lie, but you like shaving cream, my glove and that. Ah, it's brilliant yeah.
Speaker 3:You know what was really good for the glove too? It's good for the lever. Yeah, the leather pine top.
Speaker 2:Oh it is really good for the leather. Yeah, it was absolutely Interesting how that works. You know where I used to put that. I used to put that right on my shin guard and I used to absolutely hit it and throw it back.
Speaker 1:Yoddy or Melina, like the pine top.
Speaker 3:I remember a couple years ago I was stuck to it, I remember a couple years ago it was like this big deal, like well, guys are using sticky stuff there Like spinning the ball, and I'm like hello. Yeah, for 100 years they've been doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the problem is is I remember my first pitching coach in the minor leagues was throwing me VP and still me spit balls, and I caught Manny Corpus and he had baby one who was here. They're talking about sticky stuff. These guys are throwing things that are going like this With like stuff that makes it slippery, oh yeah, and I'm like sticky stuff. It's the other stuff. That's ridiculous.
Speaker 3:The hair gel.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 3:With sticky stuff. You're throwing conventional pitches Right, they're throwing fastball sliders, curve balls. It gives you better grip, you just get better grip. The hitters up there getting a better grip on the bat, they got like space age tape. They got these gloves.
Speaker 2:They got the spray. Now they got sticky stuff on it.
Speaker 3:They got spray, they got pine, they got everything in the world. You can, like, put your hand on a bat like this and pick it up Absolutely, and I can't have a touch of invisible something right here, just so the balls don't slip off my fingers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can't even have sunscreen right now. Yeah, they get mad at that too. My favorite's Max Scherzer this year. Guy, this is just too much. Just shows how uneducated some of these guys are. The guy tells him to wash his hands with alcohol. Have you ever done that After you put Roz in your hand? You put alcohol in your hand. You literally cannot let go of anything it's like. So he goes back out and he's pitching. I'm sure you can hear. I mean, guys used to use it all the time. They'd be like alcohol all over their jersey. They put that Roz on and it'd just be stuck Like literal tar and the guy told him to do that. And then he gets suspended.
Speaker 3:I thought it was crazy to me. The spitball or slippery stuff. That's an illegal pitch. I don't even know how you do that. That's an illegal pitch.
Speaker 2:Have you ever tried? Yeah, I'm sure you have. I don't get it.
Speaker 3:I threw one in my life just to see what would happen. Nothing happened. Spanky again laughed at me.
Speaker 2:Did you get it? 60 feet? That's the most. Yeah, so they lather it up and when they get here they pull back and it kind of spits out and has all kinds of funky movements.
Speaker 3:Now you can lick your fingers on the mound and all this kind of stuff. You had to leave the surface of the mound. You could have to be on the grass to go to your mouth. So I had this idea that it was in veteran stadium. I would walk up to the front of the grass to get the pitch back and as I was getting the ball back I asked what the count was Trying to throw a distraction out.
Speaker 2:And as I was asking what the count was, I go like what's the?
Speaker 3:count. And then I got the ball back. Did you get caught? No, and then I walked back up to the mound. But then, spanky, later on he goes. I saw it, he goes. When you shook to a fast ball, I knew exactly what I was getting. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Once again Joe West almost threw me out of game because he realized I kept bouncing the ball Every chance I got, throwing around the horn down to second base for Jeff Carstens, because he would actually use the scuff he goes. If you bounce that ball one more time, you're done. I threw that ball well out into center field because I was terrified. But yeah, like guys don't even use scuffs anymore.
Speaker 1:Well, no, they can't, but they used to.
Speaker 3:Well, you can if you're scuffing them yourself. Well, I'm saying I used to scuff them.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about a ball and the dirt and stuff. They threw it out right away.
Speaker 2:Well, but you know, the catchers do that a lot of time.
Speaker 3:As soon as you get a ball out there, you can scuff it, you're rubbing it up. If you have a go ahead, Go ahead. You have a nail? Yep, Okay, you take a. No, you don't have a nail.
Speaker 2:I used to have a guy that would no, this is how you do it.
Speaker 3:You get a sheet of you know the hardware store get a sheet of a nice, fairly rough sandpaper Like 150 grit and you get on them old fashioned hole punchers like for your notebook. You know, you put three holes in. Okay, you start punching out a whole bunch of holes.
Speaker 1:So you have a little circle of sandpaper, yeah.
Speaker 3:And then you take them and you put a just this little tiny dot of crazy glue on the edge of it and you put it right here. Glove hand Right here.
Speaker 2:Which is no, no, on your glove hand. Yeah, those that are listening on the podcast you're pointing to the base of your pinky.
Speaker 1:This is not sticky stuff. Oh, yes, right.
Speaker 3:No, no, you're putting it on the.
Speaker 1:On the forefinger rather yeah.
Speaker 3:Like the, that would be the ball of your feet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess you could call it the ball of your hand?
Speaker 3:I don't know what the heck you call that.
Speaker 2:I see that's.
Speaker 3:Okay, and then you go to rub up the ball and there's, there's, there's two guys that did it a lot and I could tell by looking at the scuff who did it. They it was almost like a second.
Speaker 2:You have concrete on your hand.
Speaker 1:No, I got that little tiny thing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But it's only on one edge. Okay, so you can either rub it like this kind of up and down and all your scuff marks go in a straight line, or you can take it and spin it in a circle, rub it up and now you got a little circular scuff. You put that scuff on the side of the ball when you're throwing it and that slows the air down. Air, it can't go over there as fast as the smooth side.
Speaker 3:So, what was the difference between? So here's what happens it slows, slows down the, the, the, the air flow on that side and it builds up a high pressure, Right, right right right.
Speaker 3:So the air going by this is going a lot faster Right Than the high pressure on this ball Right. So now you're just throwing a backspin fastball, but because of the pressure difference in the air on two different sides the side that has the scuff the ball is going to slowly move the other way, so you can throw like a. You can throw a if you throw your fastball at 95,. Now you got a 95 mile an hour cutter, but what about you turn it the other way? And now you got a 95 mile an hour sinker, but what about the?
Speaker 2:circle to the, to the.
Speaker 3:I don't think it'd make any difference as long as you're disrupting the air flow over that smooth baseball.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's all you had to do. I never thought about the circle. Now here's the thing.
Speaker 3:Now you have people wondering why are you only putting blue glue on the on the edge there? He said well, when the umpire starts walking out after they've been after they getting suspicious yeah when you're throwing a 95 mile an hour cutter. You just take your thumb, flick it off. And you just flick it off into the dirt. Cover it up with a little dirt.
Speaker 1:I guess you never talked to Kevin Gross ever, did you? He never talked to Kevin, or not? Kevin Gross? Who was the guy? That was it? Necro Joe, necro Joe.
Speaker 3:Because that was that was legit. He's a knuckle. Now he got knuckle. Ballers are constantly messing with their nails in the dugout. He had a Emory board.
Speaker 2:Because if you'd lose that what are you going to?
Speaker 3:do with an Emory board on the mound Time out. Yeah no, he carried an Emory board in his thing to actually do his nails, cause he's a knuckle ball pitcher. But Emory board on that, that's like. It's like having a cell phone in your pocket running the bases this is the same kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Who does that?
Speaker 2:kind of.
Speaker 1:Thing.
Speaker 3:So yeah, that's crazy, doesn't affect anything, but you shouldn't do it, and so that's what happened with it.
Speaker 2:I'm about to go down to Florida for fantasy camp. I'm going to make sure I get all my guys some scuff balls. You know I may do. I get that nasty stuff Wrong.
Speaker 3:You don't, you don't put, you don't put it on the ball, you put it on the on the low part of your finger. That's where you put it. So you know, this was shown to me. I never actually did anything like that because I was afraid I'd get caught. You know, I mean I would take a little sticky stuff out there with me, but actually scuffing the ball up was I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:You know who cheats more than anybody.
Speaker 3:No, when I, when I would get a scuff ball which I would. I would use it, but I mean I wouldn't say, oh, this ball is scuffed. I'm going to know I want that ball scuffed so I can do so. I make a move, but I was never bold enough to go out. But I pitched with some guys that did, and they show me how you do it.
Speaker 2:So the biggest cheaters are the guys catching. I do anything my guy asked me to do, but I'll never forget the day I'm in the big leagues, it's with the pirates and a guy gets a scuff ball and is like there's a back end, doesn't want it. I couldn't believe it, couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The advantage you have. I'll never forget facing Bellisario in LA and when his sinker was moving almost two feet. I'm just like. This isn't. This is Nintendo. It's not right. Nobody. Look at the ball. I think he's. There's a veteran, but man, it's impossible.
Speaker 3:Who was the catcher that we?
Speaker 1:had that gave love advice. Francisco, surveille.
Speaker 2:Mia Moore yep.
Speaker 3:He gave love advice. He's catching one day for us and and I get a phone call from my son, tommy, in between innings and he goes. Did you see, surveille do that? That was awesome. I'm going. What are you talking about? He goes, the ball bounced in front of me, he blocked it, got down ball back from the umpire, a new ball and he switched him and through the one that Bounce back out to the catcher and through the new ball off.
Speaker 3:That's awesome and I'm going no way. He didn't do that. So then I was on TV, I called down to the truck and I said, can I see like the pitch of sure enough, he did that and made that haul?
Speaker 1:and I'm thinking well telling you I could work with this.
Speaker 3:You got to be asking about that like the next day, and he goes oh, you know, it is like Nobody else did I go? You were really.
Speaker 1:Slapped my son so that much and I gave it a home Unbelievable.
Speaker 2:I was when I was in Colorado. Some of the infielders had stuff on them, so when we throw it around the diamond, they'd give a ball back.
Speaker 3:I'm proud of nothing to do with it. The best, the most funniest thing I ever saw was when you got a year. Melina blocked that ball.
Speaker 2:No, it's just incredible.
Speaker 3:And the ball stuck, stuck. There's so much sticky stuff.
Speaker 2:I don't understand how hard that is. It's actually happened. I mean, it's like almost impossible.
Speaker 3:You could be covered in straight-on flypaper. Yeah, and that ball wouldn't stuck fly paper. But he's like he's looking around.
Speaker 1:Oh it's stuck to my it's like, like it's a bell crow I should have looked.
Speaker 3:He rips it off his chest protector and now everybody in the ballpark knows what's going on, but nobody says anything.
Speaker 2:Do you know if he threw that ball back I don't know back into play my guess is no.
Speaker 1:I would say not I want to look back.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna look back and see how bad he did.
Speaker 1:I bet he did. You might have tried to. It's hard to believe.
Speaker 3:This is what I do know, which amazes me. Nobody made him change the sector. It's chest protector, right, I know.
Speaker 2:I know well if you ever watch a lot of those guys Ham and Malden auto were notorious for it they would reach down and reach behind their shingard and they had just a claw Pine tar. They throw that ball back. You could hear it on deck and they never, ever got in trouble, never got caught. It's wild.
Speaker 1:Well, speaking of rules, rules couple things about. Oh, new rules, no yeah, yeah, new rules 2024 18 seconds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he and I talked a little bit about it, but so they're gonna go from. With a runner at first base, you're dropped from 20 to 18 seconds. Now for pitchers. Forts not not happy about it? No, I found. They found that the by the end of the year pitchers were delivering the pitch was still with seven seconds left On that clock. So they're trying to find a way because I guess the game's increased by, I think, almost seven minutes by the end Of the year, if I'm not mistaken, even though, when all was said and done, they cut back 24 minutes.
Speaker 3:You know what. What remember the first couple months of the season. People were running wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think the pitchers started holding the ball longer and longer and longer and longer To stop them. So the guys would take their lead and they would get fidgety, get fidgety, get fidgety. And even though you can only throw over there one time, some guys were actually getting picked off because they were holding the ball for so long. I don't know, I mean, this is just I Don't two seconds. Is it gonna make a difference? I don't know, but I think that Because they wanted more running in the game.
Speaker 3:Yeah and they got it early and I think they were happy with that, but then it went away. I think they're trying to Because the pitchers figured out Okay, we'll just sit here and hold the ball. Yeah and I got time. The clocks right there, I could see it, yeah. So I think that might have been the reasoning that they have that. They, I mean it worked. Games are absolutely back where they should be. So I don't think this has anything to do with time of game. I think it's to help the running game.
Speaker 3:That's a really my take on the wisdom that wisdom right there.
Speaker 2:Well, I, just I. I feel like MLB always wants to be like, ooh, we did something good, let's do more instead of like letting it play out. But that's a really good point.
Speaker 1:I didn't even process that part but you're still not happy with it.
Speaker 2:I just the injuries bothering. It's the injuries that bother me. There's enough research, there's no studies and injuries keep going the wrong direction. And we have so much information. It's overwhelming. These guys get just throwing all this crap when it comes to data and analytics. Why are the injuries not going the other way? I mean he's talking about.
Speaker 3:I.
Speaker 2:Because they're not training that way. They're training like for our reason.
Speaker 3:I mean we had two and a half hour games forever and nobody got hurt, right?
Speaker 2:now you're having, but if you ever watched, you've seen their bullpens. Huh, right, I mean that has nothing to do with the game time clock right, right, but when, when they're going full throttle all the time, there's been enough studies out that they start when they lose their mechanics, they don't get back as fast, and that's really what it is. It has nothing really more to do than that. And these guys still don't train for it, because they're training for that high Velocity instead of being like you. Like, you said that first round hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I'm just but you know 1984 he could really throw 84 More years.
Speaker 2:Right a J Burnett's best year is after he tore his UCL. I think guys aren't learning how to pitch and how to use that clock to their advantage. I'm a big believer and go faster. I think it's always harder if I'm hitting. If a guy speeds me up, I try to slow the game down, yeah so I'm with you.
Speaker 3:Last year you said it's a hitters like it's a hitters clock, the hitters.
Speaker 2:The problem picture isn't these guys just aren't training that way and I don't know if they don't realize it or what it is, but it's optimal recovery deep breaths, gurus telling them slow the game down, no like, speed them up. That's slowing the game down for you. Speed them up. But they're not doing that and injuries just keep going and going and going, and part of it's because the way they train, part of it's the way they throw their bullpens. There's no touch and feels. I'll never forget Rich Hill saying that. I mean, you remember we used to do that walking. You go out and just feel that breaking ball, feel the change up. That's it right. These guys go out and they're chasing pitch design. They're chasing better, better bite on the breaking ball in July.
Speaker 3:I don't know if they do that at all all times. I gotta believe that there's. There's some starters that go out there because I mean there was, I Would go to the bullpen for my bullpen day. There's times where I'm like I'm gonna play catch out here today, ray, and it goes. Yeah, that's fine, he goes. You need to take an easy, yeah. There's a pitchy coach for a melody catch for 10 minutes and and Ray would say, that's fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the way it should be. Some guys need it, some guys don't. I played with guys that threw bullpens. They took a day off and then they're on the mound. That that third day, fourth day, right up to when they start. So they're actually throwing you know three times on the mound and then pitching on that that last day. So they're really on the mound four times. They're down the slope constantly. So I just think you know, a guy that you guys could.
Speaker 3:Can I suggest a guess?
Speaker 1:Yes, you know you can sure Oscar Murray. Oh yeah, we're definitely gonna get.
Speaker 3:It's a great subject for because I, he's got, he's got a balance, this, the, because the new data and all this stuff, it's, it's tools and they're valuable tools. Yeah, but you can, he's the guy that's in charge of balancing.
Speaker 3:Yes you know how much of this you use, how much of it. You know reading the pictures and knowing, okay, we got to back off a little bit on this guy. And there's days where when you're feeling good, you go down to that, that and you actually You're like, okay, instead of saying I'm gonna just play catch today, no, I want to work on some stuff. I'm going game speed. Yeah, I'm gonna get drilling going and we're gonna go Absolutely. There's those kind of workouts in that bullpen too, and I think there's a there's a place for those.
Speaker 2:No doubt it's a balance it is, and I think the balance is is Starting to shift back. Look, we talked about off-camera and I think the starting pitcher is gonna change back to guys that, can you know, really pour in some innings. The innings ears are really important to sign a couple of them, but I think it's been dead. For a while They've been training guys to go out now like and blow out, move on, yeah get it before you said what you've seen bull pens that you demonstrated.
Speaker 1:You threw a pitch and look back. Yeah, for those are listening. Explain that, because they're looking back to see the data after each pitch right.
Speaker 2:So if you go to spring training this year, you're gonna see on the backside. You're gonna see TVs on the backside, you're gonna see a clock, because now they have to keep over that. You turn around, you're gonna see Whether it's flight scope or track man or wrap soda data right behind them. Yeah, and then some of these guys even play catch with the ball.
Speaker 3:That actually it keeps up with everything. Can we see the video screens that they have here on the on the camera?
Speaker 1:No, yes, no, you can't okay.
Speaker 3:The video screens that they have, yeah, or as big as what I have in my living right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're amazing.
Speaker 3:It's like you can look and there's like three or four of when you got all the data. But you had the video to, you got the tools that they have now to. The feedback is a just incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're doing this in December. Like I'm about to go to Florida. They have a major league camp and a minor league camp and They'll have different things. Some guys are down there working on strengths, some guys are down there working on pitch design and when you go in and pitch design, you have to throw it 80, 85, 90 percent to actually feel that and see if the data is matching, to see if that shape is happening. It's remarkable what you can do, but guys haven't been built up for it. They have to really understand the way their body moves. I mean, great example is Oviado with that. What last year, like he's pitching hurt, doesn't know it because the numbers are still really good and he finished seasons because he's a strong Dude, he's an ox and he's out there. He's like I'm gonna compete, I'm gonna do everything I can old-school approach, but I think they cut up. He pulled back from that instead of being that guy.
Speaker 1:Guys are gonna get hurt, I agree. Every time somebody gets hurt with I just for me. I don't think there's that's new school or old school, bob. In my opinion, guys- are gonna hurt?
Speaker 2:I don't think. I know got hurt. Got hurt, pitch count, you told me. You told me a number. What was the number?
Speaker 3:you three hundred eighty three put your name.
Speaker 2:Bob walked through a hundred eighty three pitches and how do you know what a threshold is like that? That's a great example.
Speaker 1:Well, you know my and he and I have talked about this on the air, so yeah, it's like here's my. Someone decided along the way 100 is the magical mark.
Speaker 2:It's the red line, it's night, it's night.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm saying back it was a hundred for a long time but why wasn't it 90 then? Why wasn't it 103?
Speaker 3:Why was it 98? I can answer you the hundred thing I'd love to hear, because they they always kept pitch count. No, you had a pitching chart. You kept mm-hmm. I mean it wasn't on the scoreboard or anything, but it was a pitching chart somebody was keeping and a lot of Pitching coaches had, like this, cutter right here. Yeah little things you get you.
Speaker 3:You know they would click every pitch and when I was on the pitching chart and once every few games a manager or a pitching coach would come back and say how many's he got, and you tell him how many pitches because they have a feel that, like you know, it looks like he's dropping his arm or something. Maybe his pitches are getting up there and, historically, when he was getting near a hundred or a hundred, that's when they would start getting a little like you know, if you, if it came, said how many's he got, not say he's got a hundred and eight, and I could see the look on their faces. They're thinking he's might be getting to the end. And it was like anytime you said a hundred, they felt like we got to start paying attention somebody somebody set that number a hundred.
Speaker 2:At well, it's like a nice number I know, that's my point. And, by the way, you said forever no, not forever in your time, yeah, but okay so there's before you pitched, they didn't know yeah, so I how many pitches going the bullpen prior to going the game? I?
Speaker 3:Don't know 20, 25. Starter yeah, it was a starter. You throw a lot more than that, right.
Speaker 1:but do they count warm-up pitches? They?
Speaker 2:do now, but all out all out.
Speaker 3:Do they count throws to first base? Pick up throwing a dozen pitches all out.
Speaker 2:Doesn't all out. Keyword go watch them today. Pitch one, they have a, they have that. They have the analytics going immediately and it's 88 91. I would watch guys in the minor leagues through their bullpens. Most the guys I caught would be 84 85 that threw 95, 96 and their bullpens, feeling it out, really understand where their body is. I'm watching guys in the minor leagues throwing 88 to 95 in a bullpen. No adrenaline, nothing. Because they're chasing what's behind them, because that's how they start training. And they start throwing bullpens months before they did in the past, like the offseason, like you went and painted right during the strike and then came back. You probably didn't throw a bunch, you didn't throw off the mound, but you played catch. These guys are on the mound, developing, spinning. They don't go out and just fill out a change-up at 90 feet.
Speaker 2:Back in the day I remember going out with Will Harris. He had a natural tilt to his hand and I was like, dude, you have a cutter, let's throw the cutter. We went out and threw 115 balls. Probably one day. We got a lot of trouble. But he came back and that's ultimately one of the reasons he got to Big Lease.
Speaker 2:He got a feel of what was natural. They were trying so hard. His arm was hurting. He was first forcing something that didn't exist for him Could not get here. He was born like this and man, it was a game changer for him. He threw a natural fastball every time and they tried so hard to get it to go away, and I just talked to Stephen Broad about it. He said he changed the way he threw. Everything got better analytically, but he tore his arm to pieces and that's why he's not pitching anymore and I think there's good and bad to it. I think you have to really understand what are you trying to do, and I think competing Joaquin you can correct me if I'm wrong has really died. Development has become a lead, especially in the minor leagues. I'm sad.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I can't say that because I'm so far from it.
Speaker 2:But you're watching the games.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm watching the game, but I don't know what. I see the result, but I don't know what got you to that point. I'm not there.
Speaker 2:I don't know, but you can see a game and a guy's fastball is just completely lost and he keeps chasing the same scouting report instead of saying you know what. Maybe I have to need to throw a breaking ball on the outer third, maybe even in the other batter's box, five or six times to try to get that feel to go back out there.
Speaker 3:Well, I will say this If your whole life you've been, you know, throwing a ball 98, sitting at 96, and now you're throwing 94, sitting at 92, you're going to have to change the way you pitch. Correct, similar to remember we were talking about when I hurt my arm before and after. Right, that's what it is. You've got to make an adjustment because you don't have that top flight fastball that you were using to get yourself out of problems or you were using to get a big strike out there, right. So you've got to learn to do it a different way, right, or go home and get on with the rest of your career, and that's kind of my point.
Speaker 2:It's like the adaptability of understanding how to pitch, because these guys are thoroughbred. I mean the way that they're training, they're getting big, they're getting strong and they have elite fastballs. Mitch Keltler, when he came back moving great, throwing 100, 100, 100. What did it take him Three, four months to actually learn how to pitch and use this stuff? And he continued to develop. Can't wait to watch this guy pitch next year because he's become a guy that can pitch at 92 or 99. And I think that's where the game's changed, because I used to face guys like Kershaw. It didn't matter if he was still in 95 or 88, the dude still came out and competed like crazy. I think that's a dying breed, but it's coming back.
Speaker 2:I'm very passionate about it because I watch it and I love guys that compete. I would have died in the trenches for walking.
Speaker 1:But from an untrained eye for me, guys, I think we want a pitcher to come out here and a dominating pitcher like a Mitch Keltler, like you said, to come out there and pitch, but it takes time, it takes time.
Speaker 1:And everybody's clock is different. Maybe some guy comes up and dominates right away in the big leagues. Maybe a guy. I think Bob's a great example of it. The old sage Steve Blass talked about all the time when he realized at a time after a couple of years, you know what, find out if your stuff is good enough, compete, try and be the best, and then you learn how to pitch. You learn how to become a pitcher. Again, everybody's clock is different, correct? So Correct.
Speaker 2:It's just with the analytics they can measure the stuff against other stuff instead of the outs. I miss the time when, if you win and you have a three-year array, I don't care if you throw 82. You're winning. Those guys are a dying breed. They're starting to come back. I mean, what Zach Greenke's doing, what Kershaw's doing, what these guys can do for such an extended period of time is so different than what's being created now. I feel like Paul Skeens is a guy. If he's throwing 88, he's still going to go out and compete. He's going to figure out a way. I think that's important.
Speaker 3:Well, I hope we don't find that out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't want to find that out, but you know what I mean. Very good point. I love the fact that you said you pitched eight years after you hurt your elbow and some of the best stories I had were guys had some big injury and they had to do things different and they came back. Andrew McCutcheon is a guy that's learning himself in a whole new way because of all the injuries and I think he's going to be better for it. I hope he's better on the field, but if not, he's going to be able to pour into guys in a way he never could have if he didn't get hurt and understand himself, because that elite talent starts to fade. You have to do things a little different.
Speaker 3:If you stay around long enough, you're forced to evolve Absolutely. It doesn't matter who you are. Greg Maddox wasn't always throwing the ball 85 mile an hour. When he first came up with the Cubs, he was throwing about 95.
Speaker 1:And nobody talks about that. By the way, with Maddox, Everybody always talks about Maddox being the guy who throws 85. Nobody talks about how hard he threw anything.
Speaker 3:He had a really good arm, but he evolved as his arm, as his stuff changed, as he got older. He figured it out, and the main thing he figured out is I got to be able to throw the ball where I want to, and he always had a really good finish on it. Even when he was not throwing the ball really hard, he'd always have a good bite to it at the end. You'd see guys constantly pounding the ball under the ground all over the stuff.
Speaker 2:It was deceptive. I mean, some of the toughest guys I've ever faced in a Royal Holiday and I'm like I feel like I saw everything he threw, but I hit it in the ground every time. Ground ball, ground ball, ground ball. It was remarkable. It's like he was just able to go. I'm just going to barely miss the barrel. I'm going to miss the barrel again. I think that's an art.
Speaker 1:Bob, you come back this summer. Are you a guest?
Speaker 2:I can talk with him all day. Yeah, what do you?
Speaker 3:guys. No, no, I work just down the street.
Speaker 1:OK, oh, that's right, you do Well, you wear the same shirt for us. We wear the same shirt.
Speaker 3:I hope so. It's his lucky shirt. I promise I'll change shirts. Well, it's cold outside, right, it's a winter time.
Speaker 1:Well, you know we end our show all the time, ask you to hold my cutter. So, bob, he kind of showed us last time Hold my cutter, cutter yeah.
Speaker 3:You know what? They don't do this anymore, but they used to do this.
Speaker 1:There we go.
Speaker 2:Now you're talking what is a little bar to put on? Yeah, a little natural cutter, a little scuff cutter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm about to take one of those out to the mount. But there you go. Look at that, there we go. That's a nice scuff. Yeah, hold my cutter, hold on, hold on. Thank you for tonight.