Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 56 Part 2 of 2: We’re Throwing Money Down the Drain!” How Wastewater Heat Recovery Saves Energy & Costs
How Wastewater Heat Recovery Can Revolutionise Energy Efficiency in Homes & Buildings. Want to slash energy costs and improve sustainability in construction? In this episode of Thrive in Construction, Darren sits down with Cameron Loggenberg, Technical Manager at ShowerSave, to discuss how wastewater heat recovery technology is changing the game.
As the UK construction industry pushes towards decarbonisation, innovative solutions like this reduce energy consumption, cut costs, and make homes more affordable to run. Whether you're an architect, developer, or homeowner, this episode is packed with actionable insights!
🔥 What you'll learn in this episode:
✔️ How wastewater heat recovery works and why it's a game-changer
✔️ Its role in achieving Future Homes Standard and net zero goals
✔️ Cost-saving benefits for homeowners, developers, and social housing
✔️ Why hotels, leisure centres, and commercial buildings should invest in this technology
✔️ Common myths about wastewater heat recovery – debunked!
🎧 Listen now & join the conversation!
📢 Enjoyed this episode?
👍 Like & subscribe for more discussions on the future of construction
💬 Comment below: Have you used wastewater heat recovery in a project?
Check out Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIthzspTNG0
🔗 Connect with us:
Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
Cameron: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/cameronlogg
ShowerSave: https://www.showersave.com/
Talk to me about water itself. There are lots of countries that really struggle for water. It doesn't always feel like this country struggles for water, but water is another precious resource.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think often we've all taken water for granted over here. Our water bills aren't expensive. It's usually not much a month at all and you don't have to think about it. I previously lived in a country where we had a water shortage and we had a maximum of 50 liters per person per day. So you're there in the shower with the buckets underneath your feet and you're catching everything you can and then you're using that to flush the WC, or you're collecting rainwater and then connecting that up to the WCs to be able to use it, or you're using that water into using wind pools. That was for me a big eye-opener as to to just how much of a precious resource water was. I remember as a family we drove past um this massive reservoir, um just outside cape town and it was um acres and acres of land and it was an old vineyard that they'd taken some of the land and you could see kind of the old vine branches and trees and stuff and we'd seen a picture of what it was when it was full and we went and saw a picture of it. And we went and saw it physically when it was empty and we stood there with the kids and said this is why we need to be protective and careful of it. It's not about waxing lyrical and shouting at people. It's just about making small changes each day. So if that means reducing the amount of time you shower by a minute, if that means using wastewater recovery to reduce the energy, then the small changes make a huge difference.
Speaker 2:How long have you been in the construction industry? So I've been in construction for nearly 20 years. I started out as a on-the-tools plumber and very quickly I started my own business and I thoroughly enjoyed working in people's properties. I enjoyed the trust that they gave to me to provide a finished product, whatever that might be, whether it be big or small. And when the opportunity came to work for ShowerSafe, it was a no-brainer. It was a get back to my roots and make a positive change, and it's been a really enjoyable experience the last couple of years.
Speaker 2:What is it you do for ShowerSafe? So I'm the technical manager for ShowerSafe. So one of the things I do is I look at things like the installation manuals, the technical documents. I look at developing new products or making our current products more efficient or easier to install. I try and look at it from an installer point of view and think how can it be easier for them so that they can be in and out as quick as possible and also so that they don't have to think about it Once they've installed it. It's done, and I spend a lot of time working with commercial projects as well and looking at their designs for future projects and looking at new projects where we can install wastewater recovery as an after installation.
Speaker 1:So you're talking retrofitting, exactly retrofitting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and obviously there's a lot to overcome there, because you've got plant rooms which are full of stuff already, or you've got the risers in the corridors which have got no space to breathe in. But there's plenty of options. There's plenty of projects out there where they can install it which can make a huge difference. And if you think of the kind of commercial projects where you know take hotels, for instance, a hotelier will have, you know, take hotels, for instance, a hotelier will have, you know, 200 bedrooms, they could easily be saving £80,000, £90,000 a year on the hot water bill, £19,000 a year, £80,000 to £90,000 a year.
Speaker 1:£80,000 to £90,000 a year can be saved by a hotel if you've got 200 bedrooms, if you have technology like shower save or wastewater heat recovery yeah, so you look at new projects that you've got coming on.
Speaker 2:We come, we come and help you design it. We come and see where it can work, what bedrooms that work for what's the best way to implement it, the easiest way for installers, the easiest way if you ever want to do visual inspections, and then you can be saving money every year and it's just, it's money on your profit margins so why?
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking you mentioned about profit margins here I'm just wondering why these hotels are not knocking on your door and saying, look, we need to get this because that's a significant amount of money that they can save each year. It is.
Speaker 2:It's a massive saving. I think the biggest challenge is that a lot of these projects now which are being built today you there's cranes all over london and a lot of these projects the designs were done seven, eight years ago and it's gone through years and years of design stages and planning applications. But now there is positive change. So there is, you know, the sustainability statements that they've got to make for every commercial building sustainability consultancy. In that sustainability consultation that they've put forward to planning that will have measures like wastewater, heat recovery and we're starting to see those coming in now. We're starting to see consultants come and discuss and and ask the best ways to install it and to implement it and the best way to maximize efficiencies so if someone is listening to this podcast and they're like, wow, I need to find out if we can get this in because we've not specified it.
Speaker 1:But that's a significant amount, yeah, what. What process would they need to go through? Is it, is it too late? Would it need to be specified already?
Speaker 2:no, not at all. There are very, very, very few projects where it is too late. So the two we talked about in scotland they were last minute. You know they building was nearly up.
Speaker 1:So you're talking Reba Stage 3 or Reba Stage 4?
Speaker 2:They were Reba Stage 4, I think it was, and so they were building was pretty much nearly watertight. They hadn't poured the main slabs yet, but they've done all the foundations and they've built the frames. And they gave us a call and wanted to discuss the options. And I spent some time on site with the architects, with the project managers there and the M&E consultants, because there's a lot of people involved in, obviously, commercial projects. We worked out a plan which was beneficial to that project, which would be the most cost-effective solution but also give the most gain for the lifespan of the building really. So there isn't a project which is too late. If you've got foundations in and you're starting to put the steels in, give us a call. If you've got the steels in and the roof's going on and the windows are going in well, you've still got your bathrooms to do, Give us a call, Because there is plenty of option to make that small marginal gain. There's lots of opportunities, I think, in the hotel.
Speaker 1:that's a significant gain. Exactly, Definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean hotels are most likely. Nowadays they're all built where it's a carbon copy of each level. So you've got a small room with a small bathroom pod and often they're built off-site and they are literally just plug in to the next one, plug the next one in, plug the next one in as you go up, and there's always an option for those risers to be visible. They're always accessible. You can stick wastewater recovery in one of those. For hotels it's even easier. You could feed the two showers above into one unit. So if you've got 200 rooms you may need 100 units. So you're reducing the actual cost, the outlay, but you're maximizing your efficiencies how much generally does, does the unit cost?
Speaker 1:I'm guessing also that the cost of installation is probably a little bit higher as well for the plumber.
Speaker 2:Yes, so different projects will be more expensive. So in essence we have three products and they're all the same pipe. So 2.1-meter-long pipe goes into three options. So it's a normal gravity-fed unit for domestic dwellings. Well, it can be used commercially as well. We've also got the pumped version. Goes into three options. So it's a normal gravity fed unit for domestic dwellings there is uh, well, it can be used commercially as well. We've also got the pumped version. So anywhere where the shower is the same level, so you haven't got the benefits of gravity.
Speaker 2:And then we have a commercial unit where it's four of the pipes together and it's got a distributor cap at the top and at the bottom so the wastewater can come in from, you know, a hotel, for instance, from a load of rooms, can come in from a hotel, for instance, from a load of rooms, can come in and can be distributed between 4, 8, 12, 16, whatever the project might be. And we'll design that, we'll go through the design with them and that will be really easy for them to install. The normal units alone is around between 400 to 450. And then the commercial units can be more expensive. But there's plenty of capex there for commercial projects, for domestics, obviously it's. You know it's off your profit and loss, it's from your balance sheets unless you're in a social housing scenario.
Speaker 2:Where you're, you can put that on the capex sheets for years yeah, and that's often the biggest you know area which we don't often talk about.
Speaker 2:Social homes make up a huge proportion of the properties in the uk. You you think of the largest social providers out there. They could have 30, 40, 50,000 properties and every single year they'll be doing a new bathroom in a proportion of those properties If they install the unit there. And then they're reducing the energy bill for the most vulnerable people, the tenants, who are often on the poverty line anyway. But they're putting on their capex sheet, so they're making the home more efficient and cost-saving for the tenants, so they're making a positive impact on their lives, but they're also making a positive impact on their profit and loss sheet as well. So it becomes something that isn't a massive outlay at the start. It can be spread over those years and so it makes a huge difference. Every year. There are thousands of properties where they get a new bathroom or a new kitchen and that's you know they need to be done. But while they're doing that, it's the perfect opportunity to stick a shower-safe waste water heater to be unit.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking here of the cost of the winter fuel allowance and if that is more or less than the installation cost of shower save.
Speaker 2:Well, you often find that you know, for social homes anyway, a lot of the plumbers are in-house, some of the larger firms. They might be outsourced, but a lot of the tradesmen and women are already within the company anyway. So they're salaried. So you're giving them a little bit more work to do, you're giving them some skills so they can take it to future projects and it's not a massive cost. The winter fuel allowance what is it now? About £250 a year, subject to people's needs and their benefit status. But that could make a huge difference. So if the government were to say, we'll do the winter fuel allowance and we'll make sure that every social home has one of these installed when they do a new bathroom, that'll make a huge difference. The winter fuel allowance you've still got to heat the homes you. That'll make a huge difference. The winter fuel allowance will you still?
Speaker 2:got to heat the homes. You've still got to make the home efficient. Yeah, we still want to make that home really, really warm and healthy for them. But it makes a huge difference on the epc as well because that's the element of cost of heat and of living.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that doesn't really get accounted for. The heat that goes down the drain is forgotten. It's almost like heating up the space and leaving the window open exactly yeah, and, and so many times we, we talk to people.
Speaker 2:If you ever go to a self-build show or go speak to someone that's doing a self-build, you talk to them about, kind of, some of these opportunities and some of these things they can install. They're not necessarily bothered because they want a bigger kitchen. You know the money's bearing to the bathrooms, to the kitchens, to the nice fireplaces and things like that, whereas they can actually make a massive difference with just these small devices, small technologies in the homes, and it's a huge difference I love the fact.
Speaker 1:Just going back to the origin for you, you started off as a plumber and now, where you're working at the moment, making making real difference with the shower save the wastewater heat recovery. You mentioned that you have got an involvement with research and development and coming up with new products. I'm wondering if you could just share some of the stuff that you're working on at the moment and what we can expect in the future, where your thinking is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, as I say, we're constantly looking for ways to make the product more efficient and making it easier for installers, so there are changes coming in the future. So the most recent product is the QB121XE. That's the biggest change we've made. So we've got the same length pipe as we've always had, but we've just made it that little bit more efficient by using a different top, which has made it easier for installers as well. What is the top that you've used? How?
Speaker 1:is it different for?
Speaker 2:installers as well. What is the top that you've used? How is it different? What is it? So? Before you used to use a series of elbows and it took up a bit of space and those elbows would sit over the top of the pipe. So the new product goes inside the pipe rather than over the top. So it's one less area of failure as well, because you're going internally, so it's going with the water flow, if you like, and what we're looking to do in the future is just to make those more efficient. So if we can make that more compact and if we can make it easier for installers, it'd be amazing if we could just have a little press the button and it flies on the wall, a bit like the Grinch where she's putting the Christmas tree lights on the on the on the roof.
Speaker 1:but it's not going to happen, but don't you know, don't, don't write yourself off that quickly, cameron.
Speaker 2:No, that might come up with something now they're my 10 year old that comes up with that. But we we're looking for ways always to make the product, the products, more efficient. So any way we can make it quicker for installers in essence we make it cheaper for installers any way we can reduce their time on the tools and their times putting things in. It can make a huge difference to them, because we want want them to be. You know they've got an awful lot of work to do. We are looking at just making the kind of subtle changes and we're working with other companies as well to make a big difference for a lot of people out there.
Speaker 1:Cameron we are in a position now in the podcast where we can go to the demolition zone. This area is where we talk about myths that need to be debunked and put straight. Are you ready to do it? Yes, let's go. Okay, let's do it. Well, karen, we are in the demolition zone and you have built this monstrosity of a tower, thanks. I think that it is completing with probably World Trade Center in terms of height scaled down, but anyway, for people that are listening, there is this humongous tower that is based on four pillars and it has what I call a googly eye on the top of the tower. Yep, what does it represent Height.
Speaker 2:For me, it is just all about being the biggest, okay. Okay, it is big, it is tall, it is big and it is unique. So that's me. So this represents you, yes, particularly the googly eye, the fact that it's bold on the top, also.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you've built this here to represent a myth. What is the myth that you're going to be discussing?
Speaker 2:The myth is that wastewater recovery won't work. In our project I've heard a number of times from design teams or from developers or project managers that's just not going to work. There's no chance that's going to work. It doesn't save energy, it doesn't actually say what it does, it's just a gimmick. But it really does work. The proof really is in the pudding of putting your hand at the bottom and putting your hand at the top and we've got the data that can prove and can measure how that works. But even the data doesn't convince people and can measure how it works. But even the data doesn't convince people. So the myth for me is that I often hear is that it's a gimmick and it doesn't do anything.
Speaker 1:I know because we've used this on a number of the projects that we have consulted on. As you know, we've got a sustainability and energy consultancy and of the projects that we use wastewater heat recovery on, it absolutely does very, very well. So I can attest that that myth absolutely needs to be debunked, because it's not true. Yeah, in any way, shape or form. But, cameron, the honor is yours. Please destroy the myth. I love that a removal of one of the pillars causes it to come crashing down. I love that A removal of one of the pillars causes it to come crashing down. I love that. Cameron, just as a last thing, as we come to the end of the time that we spend together, what is the one thing that you think is really useful for architects to know when they come up with some resistance, either internally or externally, to using a technology like wastewater heat recovery?
Speaker 2:I think when they understand the real benefits in terms of pounds and pennies for whether it be the owners of the project or whether it be the future homeowners or tenants when they understand the amount that it can save and the energy that it reduces, it makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2:Because when people see those figures and they believe them and they're explained to them clearly in a way that they understand, when they're able to see and feel that it works, that then resistance is what is washed away completely.
Speaker 2:A number of times when I've spoken to people and explained to them and gone through for anyone that's physically, you know, felt the demonstration rigs that we've built and we have around we've got a couple around country and and some in the factory in holland too. It's amazing watching people when they go and they put their hand on the bottom and they put their hand at the top and they turn around and always it's a face of oh wow, it really does work and every single time I mean I've heard it countless times now it really does work. So helping architects, helping designers, helping project managers understand that it can have a massive impact on the efficiency of a home and reduction of the energy for the project and, ultimately, the reduction in the costs to provide domestic hot water for showering so where can people go to actually get hands-on with this and and see and feel the technology for themselves?
Speaker 2:yeah, so you can. We've got a demonstration rig in the middle of england in swaddling coats and we've got one in cookstown in northern ireland and we've got one in holland and emin, where our factory is. But get in touch, you know. We're happy to meet people there, we're happy to talk to people and we're happy to discuss their projects and how we can help them to get an efficient and a cost-effective home and building Cameron.
Speaker 1:it's been great speaking with you today. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks, dan. What is there that you can share with the listeners that will help them to make all of the difference in their role or in what their aspiration?
Speaker 2:is.
Speaker 2:For me, I think it's the education.
Speaker 2:When people understand the technologies and there's plenty of them out there when people understand specifically our technology wastewater heat recovery when they understand how it works and what the impact is, they're then able to describe and to talk to their clients, talk to people they're working with and they're able to have some confidence in a product that works.
Speaker 2:It helps them, it gives them the confidence that they're using a product which works, and I think it also for installers. Some of the work I'm doing is with colleges and helping apprentices when they can go on sites and say to their bosses I know what this is, I'll install it for you. We're giving them another feather in their cap of something that they're education. They've got something else that they can install, something else that they can kind of take the lead on and helping them become the leaders of the future. So I think for us, a lot of it is about education educating consultants, designers, sap assessors, installers, colleges helping them all understand and that will be by showing them how it works as well, but helping them understand the benefits. I love that.
Speaker 1:I think the message that I've heard from you today is if you've not heard of wastewater heat recovery, then not only are you missing out, but you're giving someone a property that's just not as good as it could be. No-transcript.