Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
'Thrive in Construction' is the only podcast that delves into the personal journeys of sustainability leaders and innovators in the construction industry across the UK. Our show differentiates by offering unscripted, passion-fueled conversations that go beyond the buzzwords to the heart of what's driving the industry forward. It's tailored for aspiring professionals, seasoned experts, and anyone with a keen interest in the sustainable evolution of construction. We're here at a time when the call for sustainable development is not just a trend, but a societal imperative, empowering listeners to build a career that contributes to a greener future.
Thrive In Construction with Darren Evans
Ep. 57 “Sustainability in Construction Starts with People” – Why Diversity is the Key to Innovation
Women in construction sustainability: breaking barriers. In this episode of the Thrive in Construction podcast, Darren sits down with Rebecca Heald, a passionate advocate for women in leadership and sustainable practices within the construction industry. Rebecca shares her journey, the challenges she faced as a woman in leadership, and why diversity and inclusion are essential for a more innovative and sustainable future in construction.
They discuss:
✅ The barriers women face in construction and leadership roles
✅ How inclusive leadership drives better decision-making
✅ The link between sustainability and diversity in the industry
✅ Practical steps for creating a more inclusive and resilient workforce
This conversation is a must-listen for industry professionals, business owners, and anyone looking to make construction a more inclusive and forward-thinking sector.
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🔗 Connect with us:
Darren: https://darrenevans.komi.io/
Rebecca: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/rebecca-heald-b9229b159
Rebecca's Website: https://www.rebecca-heald.co.uk/
Females and leadership clear passion of yours. Has there been leadership aspirations that you've had that you felt have been blocked off, or has there been a mentor, someone in your life that's opened up leadership for you and you want to pay it forward?
Rebecca Heald:Very good question and I think I probably would have struggled to answer that only a few months ago, because I think a lot of the reason that I do what I do is not conscious. You know, I think a lot of it is subconscious and as I go down the path of doing what I'm doing I'm then realize where it's coming from. So, yeah, I think I was in leadership in education for a long time and was always in inclusion and diversity, so I've always felt really passionate about that. And then, obviously, when I set up my own business and you know I saw a lack of women in the construction industry and in leadership, I was like, right, I want to. You know, I really want to make a difference with regards to that. But I think the more that I have got to understand and know myself, the more I can see how the frustrations that I had in my own leadership career you know kind of probably a bit of the driving force behind that. So when I first decided, you know, I don't want to carry on being employed, I always struggled with that anyway. Realise now that's probably got a lot to do with, you know, adhd and what have you. But again, didn't understand all of this. At the time I was just like, why am I different? Different, why am I the way that I am? And I just experienced a lot of barriers and wanted, whatever I did with my business, whatever I did with my life, I wanted it to kind of use those experiences that I'd had to make it easier for other people.
Rebecca Heald:And obviously, you know I'm passionate about women in leadership, because I can't, you know, I'll never know what it's like to be a man in leadership, so I can only ever talk about it from my experience. That doesn't mean to say I want, you know, women to replace men or anything like that. You know, because I believe that we thrive when we work together and you know we. I just would love to see leadership embrace that more feminine aspect of things. You know, if a woman, you know, if somebody shows empathy in the workplace or you know, then they're seen as being weak. And I just would like and I think that's why I want to see more leadership with female leaders, because I want those, I suppose those leadership characteristics to be embraced more by everybody, ok, not just women, because I think as well, you know, men struggle with their own issues within leadership and within the construction industry, and I need to learn more about that. I need men to talk more about that and to open up about that just as much as women and men.
Rebecca Heald:Anyway, I've gone on a bit of a tangent, but I think the point was that when I was in my leadership career, there was a lot of stuff that went on for me. So, coming back after having my first son, and there was a lot of expectation, there were things that were said around. You know, if you're a leader now you're, you're managing a team, you're leading a team you can't be seen to be going and picking your child up from school. You, you know, and I was in my early 30s- so that was classed a negative thing.
Darren Evans:Because you're a leader, you going and picking up your child from school was in some way meaning that you're not leading. What was the rationale and the thinking behind that? Did you ever get to that point where you understood that?
Rebecca Heald:No, I think no, I never did. I just think that, well, apart from doing a lot of research since, and I just think that well, apart from doing a lot of research since, and I just think that there is still an archaic mindset, isn't it? I worked for local authority, you know, and I think it was very stuck in its ways. In a lot of ways, and that's not to say a lot of the things weren't overt. However, that was said to me and you know, I look back and I thought it was me. I thought there was something I was doing wrong. I was in a very abusive marriage. I had postnatal depression. I was still struggling with an eating disorder at the time. It was like, okay, this is me, I'm doing something wrong. I was doing work in schools, leading work in schools, but I didn't have my own team to manage up until I was 30.
Rebecca Heald:I was doing a lot of professional development for teachers, training, rolling out what at the time, what was national strategy? So my role was always you know it was, it was always a leader, a leader's role. But it was when I was 30 that then I was tasked with managing a team. And I wasn't just tasked with managing a team, I was tasked with creating a service. Really, it was when the coalition government came in. There was lots of cutbacks and lots of redundancies and a new team was created and I came back and was asked to start leading. Set vision, set processes, the lot.
Darren Evans:So that was work life.
Rebecca Heald:Home life was first child struggling with an eating disorder that you were aware of or weren't aware of yes you were aware of I was aware of it, but in denial I thought I was okay so you had, you thought you had control of it, but but you didn't. You were in an abusive marriage as well, again conscious or subconscious, not aware of it, aware of the fact that the marriage was abusive I always knew the marriage wasn't healthy, but again placed yeah and, to be honest with you, I have to take responsibility for letting all of that happen. Do you know what I mean? But didn't, wasn't, wasn't aware of?
Darren Evans:not aware of this that it was again it may be in denial in that area as well. And then you said you had postnatal depression also. So this was home life for you extremely. And then on top of that, in your professional life, there was a brand new directive that had come out with an expectation and, I guess, a path that had never been trodden before.
Rebecca Heald:Yeah, into the mix. All of the team that I was managing were women. Okay, the job was supposed to be split with somebody else who was on maternity leave and didn't come back for a year. I was doing two people's job. I was still expected to do the original role that I'd done before in terms of advising head teachers, slt, on strategy and practice so SLT, that's an acronym senior leadership teams okay, yeah, okay and yeah I was the youngest.
Rebecca Heald:I was the youngest, I was the youngest member of my team. All of my team were older ladies who, again, you know, I had to prove myself and there was all sorts going on, all sorts.
Darren Evans:Just to pick up on a couple of things. I'll come back to the comment that you just made a second ago, whether you had to prove yourself, but I'm interested in the comment that you made around. The team that you were leading were all female. What difference does that make what? The team that you were leading were all female. What difference does that make? What relevance does that have? What opportunity, what challenge did that bring for you at that time?
Rebecca Heald:at the time I didn't really see it, but I was working for a service that was supposed to be promoting inclusion and diversity across Lincolnshire schools and we did have some ethnic diversity on the team, but I just there was. We did, and I did try to employ some men over the period of time as well, but they never. They never stuck around and I just think in terms of you know, we were supposed to be leading in terms of diversity, inclusion in schools. To be able to lead, you have to innovate and be creative and for me, you know, that was always going to fall short if you had, you know, a single demographic, which is what we had all women, all women all women of similar kind of age.
Rebecca Heald:Like I said, I was, I was young, I was the youngest one and and then, of course, as well it was. It was tricky because I think there was a lot of there was bullying. There was there's no two ways about it, you know, and there was a lot of talk about me behind my back and about you know what did I know what I was doing and you know I gained respect in the end, but I literally had to sacrifice. I remember, you know, home life wasn't good at all, but I remember, like as soon as my son was in bed, I was working. Weekends I was working. I remember my ex-husband at the time what are you doing? Plus, I was halfway through a master's as well, so I had to finish that.
Darren Evans:Oh and you were learning at the same time. Yeah, oh, wow. So all of these things in together here is challenging, really challenging.
Rebecca Heald:Yeah, and I think what was really hard is that I've always felt and I think this is my story is not unique, you know, and I just I always felt like there was more I could give. There was more.
Darren Evans:You know, this wasn't my, this isn't what it was supposed to be so, even though you had all of these things going on, there was still this feeling inside of you that there was more, yeah, but you didn't know what more looked like no, and I think part of me knew it would evolve in some ways.
Rebecca Heald:I knew so. I hit rock bottom. I had a breakdown after having my second son. This was how many years? This was three or four years after the period that I just told you about when I first went into that role, and I never really things got to a head at work at that point and you know, I don't think I ever really recovered from what happened at work, if I'm honest.
Rebecca Heald:But it was at that point that I was like, you know, I can't continue like this, I can't carry on, you know. But I also knew that I couldn't achieve what I wanted to achieve, carrying on the way, in the environment that I was in, having the struggles that I was having, you know. So, although I was still struggling with the eating disorder, I was still, you know, struggling with the postnatal depression, all of that. They were such dark, dark, dark days. But there was something in me that was just like you've got to get better, you've got to be better, and when you are, you can do what you need to do. So I started a process of kind of building my way back up.
Darren Evans:This feeling of you have to be better, or is it? I believe, that I can be better? So which of the two do you think was pulling you? Was it this I need to, or was it that I can?
Rebecca Heald:It was definitely I need to. I think the can there was still always. There was still always. Can I do this? Am I going to do this All the time?
Darren Evans:The day.
Rebecca Heald:Does it ever leave? I don't know. But you've got to override it. You know, everything is, it's all a mental game, it is.
Darren Evans:So, of the people that are listening to the podcast, that are identifying with the things that you're saying as a place where they feel at the moment, what would you say to them and what would you say to your previous 30, 31, 32 you said 32, 31, 32 year old self from a position that you are at the moment the one thing that I think, you know, I'll never stop working on is that belief, you know, and the trust in myself.
Rebecca Heald:I didn't trust myself, I didn't trust what my instincts were telling, trust what my instincts were telling me, what my gut was telling me, until I hit the rock bottom. And then it was a case of right trust. If something doesn't feel right, you know, don't let society tell you that's the way it should be. You know, I was always told I had ideas above my station and you know, and I was never going to do this. And if I set up a business, it was only ever going to be a hobby business and nobody liked me and I was annoying and all this kind of stuff. And yeah, of course that took its toll, it did. It got me to, you know, breaking point, but I just, I think whatever was burning inside of me, um, you know, never, never disappeared, and I think you have to listen to that how can you get to the point, though, where you can listen to that what, what needs to happen?
Darren Evans:do you really need to get to that? How can you get to the point, though, where you can listen to that what, what needs to happen? Do you really need to get to rock bottom in order for that to happen?
Rebecca Heald:I mean, that's a really interesting question because that's something I've explored, and not just from my perspective, but talking to a lot of leaders. Yeah, and unfortunately, I think that you do. I, I think you know growth comes from adversity, strength comes from adversity. I look back to when I was a kid, right, and there was always something I remember when I was 15, 16, 17, going to my boyfriend's parents and being like, yeah, I'm going to prove them, I'm going to show them what I'm going to do. So there was always part of me that was, you know, wanted to achieve the best, the most that that I could achieve.
Rebecca Heald:But I think the resilience because I think it's the resilience, my determination, my resilience, that's what's got me through, but that's come from the times, the bad times, and the bad times didn't start then. You know, the bad times started from when I was. You know experiences as a child. So, yeah, unfortunately, I'd love to sit here and go. No, you know, you know you don't have to go through the crap to come out the other side. But I think sometimes that's the reality of it and you know what it makes sense. You know there can't be light without dark. You know, and this is the other thing. We're not we're not educated to be okay with negative feelings and actually they are okay and we have to be able to sit with them and to be okay with them, because I think that's a lot where, you know, a lot of people don't think that that's okay and it can have a really negative impact on a person's mental health.
Darren Evans:Suicide rates in the construction industry are super high. Yes, what you're speaking to at the moment. There will be people listening to this podcast, undoubtedly, that have been or are in dark places, and so how do you think that that can connect to reducing the amount of suicides that are going on within the construction industry at the moment?
Rebecca Heald:Again, this is a topic that I think, you know there's no straightforward, there's no black and white to anything, right, and I think suicide rates in the industry industry I think it's multifaceted. I do believe, and I do think there's so much more going on, you know, than I will ever understand as a woman. Okay, I do genuinely believe in my heart of hearts, though, that if we can create, if we have better leadership, more inspiring leadership, more balanced leadership and more inclusion, that will, it will help, because there is no doubt that there are things triggering. I think there's so much pressure in the industry, there's so much pressure to keep costs down, there's not enough regulation in the industry, there's not enough governance, so people that don't necessarily have experience in business can go out, set up a business, get themselves a gang of men or women or whatever, and then you know, and then it becomes really tough and tricky. So I think the reason I'm going down that route is there are lots of reasons why people get in a place where they're not healthy mentally, but for me, I think, if we can have and I've had it, I've had leaders, um, you know, senior leaders in construction companies that will come to me and will want to do some work with me because they say I can't talk about these things to my peers.
Rebecca Heald:They're all white, middle aged men. I can't have these conversations. So if we've got more inclusion, if we've got more, you know, psychological safety in the workplace, I do think that we will be able to unpick some of it. Do think that we will be able to unpick some of it. I mean, you know, lots of people have got theories about. Some people think that the mental health crisis is where it's at because we're talking too much about it. And do you know what? I do think you know you can keep putting on mental health workshops, you can keep putting on wellbeing days, but until you tackle leadership and culture, none of it's going to have the impact it needs to have.
Darren Evans:So what is it then about white middle-aged men that causes the issue? And I feel sometimes white middle-aged men. If I was a white middle-aged man, I'd feel quite bad about being white middle-aged and a male, and there's nothing that you can do about that, right. But what is it that creates a barrier? Because somebody is a white middle-aged man in a leadership role? Is it a perceived barrier? Somebody is a white middle-aged man in a leadership role. Where is the? Is it a perceived barrier? Is it a real?
Rebecca Heald:barrier. No, so again, these are just my, you know my thoughts, my observations, and it's not the fact that a man is a white, middle-aged man that is the problem, it's the fact that, you know, I think workplaces are gendered Okay, and a white middle-aged man sorry, and I do hate using that term and I know I've used it and I do wish we could get away from using some of the words that we do use. But you know, I think it's that they've got characteristics that are accepted. Ok, they're not going to come across the same barriers as Because we say white, middle, so we've got colour race, ok, you know, there are certain.
Rebecca Heald:You know if you're white, you are going to be accepted more than if you're a black person. If you are a man, you're going to be accepted more in the workplace than if you're a woman. If you are, or whatever gender you want to identify as, if you are of a certain age, again you're going to demand more respect and I mean I've spoken to so many men and women in the industry that, like we are just prayed to get to a certain age, that then I could be taken more seriously because it's like, oh, if you're, when you're of a certain age, you are going to have a certain amount of experience. We know that that's not always the case. It's what you do with that experience, right, isn't it? But anyway, you know they are. They are characteristics, straight. If you're straight, you're going to be, you're you're, you know you're going to be. Except you've got characteristics straight as in heterosexual.
Rebecca Heald:Yes, sorry, okay, yeah so you've got characteristics that are accepted as the norm, so you don't face the same barriers that you know people in minority groups would right. So then it's like how can, if you've never experienced life, you know through the lens of somebody who doesn't have, um, a characteristic that is in the majority? How are you ever going to see outside the box? How are you ever going to see the blind spots? So for me, it's not. You know, it's not. You know there's nothing wrong with white middle-aged men per se. It's the fact that you need the diversity. It's the fact that you need other minds, other experiences, and this isn't just again. What I want to say is diversity isn't just about demographics either. It's about cognitive diversity, you know. So that's another factor to take into consideration.
Darren Evans:So you mentioned ADHD that you have. Is that diagnosed? At what age?
Rebecca Heald:In my 40s In your 40s okay.
Darren Evans:So I'm interested to understand what path you went on to get a diagnosis at that stage in your life and I'm just linking this back when you're talking about cognitive diversity, because having someone with ADHD will definitely bring a different perspective on things than if you've got a group full of people without ADHD. So I'm interested what, what showed up for you and and at what point you decided to go and say but you know, I'm gonna, I'm going to speak to somebody to find out if I have ADHD I think I might and then what difference that made afterwards for you.
Rebecca Heald:So, first of all, it's not diagnosed.
Darren Evans:Okay.
Rebecca Heald:What it was that made me think about that was my own son. So he's been diagnosed with ADHD and it was like, okay, I see my son and I see me and my son, and now I'm starting to understand why life was such a struggle, even at his age. So it was while I was going through my divorce and I spoke to my doctor about it on several occasions and he said to me he was like you know, it's pretty obvious, this is how you're presented. But I was also diagnosed with PTSD as well. But anyway, he said we can go down the route of a diagnosis. It's going to be a very lengthy process, it's not an easy process.
Rebecca Heald:So unless you feel that you want to take medication, then I would say continue. You've obviously coped, you've obviously built up. He actually said to me you've got coping mechanisms, you've got strategies that you've built up over the years. You know I wouldn't suggest going down that route, so I didn't, but I did push for my son. I did push for my son because, you know, I just think he's still in the education system. He, you know, he's going into secondary school and I just think, even though he was devastated when he got the diagnosis because he thought I'd ruined his life. He was like Mum, you've ruined my life now.
Darren Evans:And you've ruined it because you took him to get that diagnosis, or you ruined it because you gave it to him, not because I gave it to him, because I always tell him about how it's Mummy's superpower so it's his superpower as well. Right, right.
Rebecca Heald:Because my kids are still like how do you do everything?
Darren Evans:you do, mom, and I'm like kiddo, this is exactly you know um no, because why was he devastated with you?
Rebecca Heald:because he made it, because I, I got, he got a label and he was different, okay, and still now it's tricky with him. It's not something he wants to, you know, discuss really, it's something that you know he just he sees it as making him different and and that's sad and that's hard, because and that's another driver for me you know, if even a 10 year old, 11 year old, can not want to acknowledge his, you know, neurodivergence, which is, doesn't make him any less of a person, it makes him who he is, you know, then, how are people in their 30s, 40s, 50s feeling about that? And and we're not, you know, we're wanting to mask those parts of ourselves that actually, when we unlock it for me, I feel like, since I've been more aware of it, I've been able to understand myself better. You know, not use it as an excuse, because I can't stand that. You know.
Rebecca Heald:It's just like, okay, these are the things that I'm struggling with because my mind doesn't work in that way with, because my mind doesn't work in that way. But this isn't me, it's not. It's not because I'm a bad person, it's not because, you know, I can't do certain things. I just have to learn to do things differently and to acknowledge parts of me that I've never understood before. And that's what I want leo to to hopefully develop at a younger age what is your superpower?
Rebecca Heald:gosh, what is my superpower? That was. That was a. That was a tongue-in-cheek comment.
Darren Evans:You'll have them.
Rebecca Heald:Yeah, what are they? I think I'm able to connect with people and I do think that's pretty powerful, because I think that one thing I will say, the first thing that springs to mind, is the amount of times I'll have conversations with people and they'll be like, oh my God, I've never told anyone that before, rebecca and oh my god, I just feel like I'm able to, to do that more now than I ever could, because I couldn't have done that before, when I was pretending to be somebody else. But I do think that that is, yeah, my energy. You know, I've got a lot of energy, which, again, I think is a superpower.
Darren Evans:So your organisation has a method and it's called the Healed Method. Yes, talk me through how the Healed Method taps into your superpower, enabling your clients to feel of that and be better.
Rebecca Heald:Okay. So I think it's interesting. Actually, you've segued into that really nicely, because I don't want to think there's a professional down and I think because, yeah, definitely this I think that the most powerful thing about the healed method I think brings to an organization is helping them to be honest about what's going on, the things that need to happen, about unlocking the potential that a business and the people have. And, like I say, I think there are two powerful things with the healing I mean. Number one is that I do, I feel, like you know, because I can connect with people. I tend to pick up on things and see things that you know organizations themselves may not, but I also think a big part of that is also being a third party. You know, an outsider, it's like anything. An outsider can always look at things differently and again, this is where I'm saying you know it's diversity. You know just me coming in as an outsider, I've got a diverse perspective also as well.
Rebecca Heald:Another thing that I've learned to own is the fact I haven't been in the industry forever. Okay, now, that was hard for me in the beginning, especially as a woman, and feel like I'm being judged. I do still feel like I'm being judged by a lot of other women and I am being. But I think that I initially I used to shy away from talking a lot about not not being honest that's the wrong word about being open, I guess, about my background in education, because I thought no one's going to take me seriously if they don't think I was, you know, on the tools or an architect or quantity surveyor, you know, you know a construction background. But now I see it as a superpower, because now I see how that experience, that diversity of background that I have, why are we doing it like this? Well, we don't need to do it like this anymore. You've just, you can't see past that, because it's what you've always done. So I do think that that is something that I've learned to own and not shy away from.
Darren Evans:One of the things that I notice is that whenever you go into an industry, there is that thing that's in the back of your mind saying where am I going to get credibility from? And also there is that from the other person's point of view, right, is there like how do I know that what this person is telling me is credible and is right? I think you've touched on a really, really good point. There is that when you open up and when you're transparent, actually that's the real test that people have is am I going to get any surprises with you? And if I'm not sure and I think I am then I don't trust that, because every surprise is a bad surprise. But when you're transparent and when you're open, then everyone is thinking well, when I speak to Rebecca, I'm not going to get any surprises from her. If she doesn't know it, she's going to tell me. If she does know it, she's going to tell me. If she does know it, she's going to tell me if she thinks it's daft.
Rebecca Heald:Then she's going to tell me and and that's really a key way I think of of building that credibility with individuals and organizations and I think it's about being vulnerable, it's about acknowledging and accepting that vulnerability can be a strength. I'm not saying that, you know, anybody needs to be as open and honest as I am, and you know, but I do think there should always be an element I think, to be to be a really good, inspiring leader. You've got to have some amount of, you've got to acknowledge that, you know, and a certain amount of vulnerability is going to be a strength, because it's what connects us. You know, whenever I do a workshop, whenever I, you know, meet new people within an organisation, I will always share, you know, something about my journey, my background, because it will resonate. Whether people want to then open up and say that they've also been struggling is, but it makes me a person, it makes me human.
Rebecca Heald:I remember doing a workshop recently for a tier one contractor and one of the construction directors. He said to me do you know what, rebecca? I can't remember. We'd got like 10-15 minutes in and he was like, when you first came in, I was like, oh yeah, who's this? What she, he said but now that you've spoken and you've shared some of that stuff, I think actually I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna, you know, engage with this and you know, it's leading by example, I guess you've touched on a few topics here that are really impactful in people's lives, whether you are feeling that and going through that yourself personally or observing that with someone else, and so the things I'll list out.
Darren Evans:you've spoken about eating disorders, abusive relationships. You've spoken about ADHD. You've also spoken about postnatal depression. Let's talk about some of these in isolation, so the one that I think that's on my mind the most is postnatal depression.
Darren Evans:Okay, so postnatal depression. What advice would you give to the partner of somebody with postnatal depression to help them and support them? The reason I'm asking this question is because I've got four children with my wife, and every time I went into the hospital it felt as though I didn't belong there because they time and attention was all on them, and so it felt as though anything that I did or didn't do was probably going to be the wrong thing, because I didn't really know which at the time when I was young caused me to kind of recoil and go back in the corner and not do anything, because at least at that point I'm not going to get anything wrong, which I don't think now I'm a little bit older was the right thing to do. So just from your experience and, from your perspective, if someone has a partner or a spouse that is struggling with postnatal depression, what advice would you give for them to help?
Rebecca Heald:Very good, good question. It's hard in that situation. As much as it's hard for for a woman who's going through through that, it also is really really hard for men, and I think you've you've kind of picked up on that, which is, I think, super, super important. The main thing I would suggest really is listening. It's and this is what I mean about how I want to see more of this happening is that it's difficult for men sometimes to be that soft, that empathetic person. They want to step into being macho. They want to step into pull yourself together, and that's not going to help. It's not about, it's just being there.
Rebecca Heald:I remember when I was going through it, I didn't need somebody to tell me to pull myself together. I didn't need somebody to, you know, to tell me what a mess I was, you know, in the hope that it was going to shock me. It's much the same with eating disorder, but you know, what I needed was somebody to just listen, somebody to take the kids away and give me some time to sort my head out. You know it's it's just putting away trying to. You know and I'm saying this like it's easy to do, and I know it isn't because I think, as a man. You've got to. You've got to almost put away your ego. You've got to put aside your ego and you've just got to.
Darren Evans:Yeah men like to fix things yeah, I know generalizing here, but there's a problem. I see a problem, let's fix it. But listening isn't obvious that you're fixing it. So it sounds like from what you're saying is that men need a reframe that, by you, fit.
Rebecca Heald:By you listening, you're actually fixing it yeah well, women, you know women are brilliant at this is why women, you know, women support women. So so well, because they listen and they let women come to their conclusions and work out their solutions. You know, and I think, if you know, if more men can play that role within relationships, you know, and I'm not saying because I I'm not trying to, you know, demasculinize men or anything, like that.
Rebecca Heald:I don't think that's what you're doing? No, good Cause, that's certainly not. I mean, I've been called a man hater and everything, and that's not the case. You know, I've got two young sons, you know, and I think you know, because we all, we want women, still want men to lead and to be strong, and what have you? But again, like I said to you, listening, being empathetic, being vulnerable doesn't mean you're weak, and you know, all I needed was someone to hold space for me all I needed was someone to hold space for me, and that didn't happen.
Darren Evans:So hold space is a psychological term. Some people may call it psychobabble, but what does hold space actually mean? Someone wants to. If you had someone saying just hold space for me, what does, what does that mean?
Rebecca Heald:that means literally for me, yeah, it means being in someone's presence, stri, stripping away your ego. Stripping away. We talk about compassionate listening. Right, we talk about, you know, empathetic listening. I see it happens so rarely because people want to jump in with an idea or a solution. People want to go oh yeah, I know how you feel because I went through the same. No, you didn't. You're not going through the same.
Rebecca Heald:You know, I understand that you're trying to connect and you know in your brain you're not going through the same.
Rebecca Heald:You know, I understand that you're trying to connect and you're, you know, in your brain you're trying to kind of have support. Actually, the how we hold space is that we come into and it is really hard and it's something I've really had to to work on. But I think it means, you know, trying to put away all your assumptions, trying to put away all your own experiences or your own, you know your own ego to one side and just being there for somebody and just I'm here and I'm going to listen. I'm not going to tell you, I know better. I'm not going to tell you. I understand because, as much as I may have had a similar experience, I am not you and I'm not coming to it with your experiences you can shut people down immediately. You know, we think, oh yeah, I understand, because I went through that too. That's a really good way of shutting a lot of people down. When people say it to me, I'm like I don't need to hear that, I just need you to listen.
Darren Evans:What impact would that have had on you as someone with postnatal depression at that time in your life, If you had someone to use the phrase that you've used to hold space with you, that was your husband or your partner?
Rebecca Heald:I mean, it's a hypothetical question, isn't it? Because you know what would have happened. I think it just would have meant that I could get to where I am now quicker. In all honesty, it took me five years from so I had postnatal depression both times and I think with my second son it was pretty bad. Like I say, I hit rock bottom. I mean, I look back and there were manic episodes.
Rebecca Heald:It scares me and I think I just don't think it would have taken me so long to get from where I was to where I needed to be. You know, it took me five years from knowing what I had to do to doing it, and that was obviously to walk away from my marriage. It then took me another 10 years to walk away from my, my job, which was also having a massive negative impact on me. So, yeah, I just think it potentially would have just helped to helped me to process things quicker, helped me to work through things better. I had to go on medication. Maybe it would have, you know, had to. Yeah, it created a lot of anxiety. I struggled a lot with anxiety.
Darren Evans:What about advice that you would give for female bosses or female leaders when they have members? That female bosses are often the worst when they return back from maternity leave, because they find it quite difficult to get any level of empathy or compassion or anything like that from them.
Rebecca Heald:This is about. It's about a culture, and I think we can sit here and go. Like you know, there are things, obviously, that female leaders can do when a member of staff comes back to work. But I want to point out here as well, this isn't just for women. You know, female leaders, male leaders, we should be thinking about men as well, when they've had children and when they're coming back to work and what they're dealing with at home, you know. So I think that this should be. You know it's not, this shouldn't be gender specific, but obviously there are going to be different things that women are dealing with because of the hormones. You know what they've been through, what their bodies have been through. But I think, again, this comes down to culture that needs to be embedded within an organisation, because as a leader, yes, there are certain things you can do as a woman, but then, if the structures within the organization don't also support that, it's going to be difficult. And again, I just there's a couple of things, because I think you've made a really good point there and I want to go back to it. If I forget, you know I'm nearly 44, I'm, you know, forgetful at times now, but I want to come back to this, what you said about you know women not always being compassionate when other women come back to work, because I think that's an important point that needs to be unpicked a little bit further as well.
Rebecca Heald:But as a female leader, again, I just think it comes down to you know creating, you know having conversations, having. So my boss at the council I mean she was really great at this because she would take time, she would, she would get me. If there were the few things I was struggling with, it wouldn't be, she wouldn't call me in to have a meeting or to have a chat. But let's go and have a coffee, let's go for a walk, let's get off site and let's talk about what's going on. It's just listen again. Listen. Listen to what you know, what you're don't, because the other thing is is that women, when they return to work I did will not necessarily say what you need to hear Because, like I say to you, if the culture's not right, then they're going to want to mask things.
Rebecca Heald:I didn't want anyone to know I was struggling. I didn't want anyone to know what was going on for me at home. I wanted everybody to think I'd had this baby, I was ready to come back to work and I was going to be the best leader I could be, you know, because I was putting up a massive front, and I do think that you know, women don't help themselves with that. But I think that if we can, you know, create cultures where it's more inclusive, more accepting, you know, more flexible working is possible. You know I can't sit here and say OK, you know you're a female leader and you've got, you know who's come back to work. This is what you need to do. No, you need to listen and work that out between you. You know you need to look at strategies that are meaningful and they're gonna really help that person, but I think.
Rebecca Heald:So, going back to what I didn't want to forget, and I think that the reason that we're not seeing, I mean this is very general, because you can't homogenize women, you know, and I think that. But I do think there is a huge element of women have had to fight harder to be in leadership positions because of all those barriers that we face, that you know that men don't face, and sometimes there is a bit of a resentment, and sometimes there is a bit of a resentment. So, if you see a woman you know who could potentially, you know, rise up the ranks or, you know, get to your level, maybe get further on. It was almost like this, this threat that, oh my goodness, you know how many women can there be here? You know there's only enough space for for me, not anybody else. So there is. There is that threat and and I want to say and I'm going to be really honest here, because I don't always think this is conscious and again, for women to succeed in leadership positions, they often have to adopt masculine traits that may not be natural, you know, may not come naturally to them.
Rebecca Heald:I was recruiting it was years ago, years ago, I can't remember how many years ago, but I was recruiting in the local authority and I did a lot of recruitment.
Rebecca Heald:But on this one particular occasion I was interviewing for a member of staff that I was going to be managing, and one of the the best person for the role was an ex-head teacher. She'd worked in London, she'd worked in inclusion, she'd worked a lot with refugees, she'd been a head teacher. I'd never worked in schools in London. I worked in schools in Manchester. I'd never worked in schools in London, I'd never been a head teacher and I remember, and at the time I and this is only on reflection at the time I didn't know it. Luckily we, you know, we had recruitment processes that were quite fair and you know, but I was reluctant to employ that person. And when I look back now I was reluctant to employ that person because I was terrified she was going to want my job, you know, and that's happening and I was somebody who I think I don't think I thought at the time I was quite, you know, a fair, empathetic leader. But when I look back now I was terrified, as a woman that someone was gonna pick me.
Darren Evans:Yeah, have you heard of the crabs in a bucket story? So there are certain types of crabs that when you catch them you don't need to put a lid on the bucket okay because they'll keep one another in the bucket okay when they see one looking like they're trying to escape, they'll pull it back down.
Rebecca Heald:Okay.
Darren Evans:And this is built on the same principle of if they escape, I'm going to be left in here. It's better that they're in here with me, so we all go down together, yeah, Instead of let's work together to get out of the bucket.
Rebecca Heald:Yeah, exactly, and that's you know. But that's why we need inclusion diversity. We need inspiring leadership. But that's why we need inclusion diversity. We need inspiring leadership because what I see far too often is poor managers trying to teach people how to lead, and it's just ironic.
Darren Evans:Rebecca, I have loved our conversation so far. We are now in a position where we can go to the demolition zone, where we will talk about a myth or a misconception and then you'll bust it down.
Rebecca Heald:Okay, you ready to do it, I guess. So as ready as I'll ever be.
Darren Evans:Well, rebecca, we are now in the demolition zone and you have created this masterpiece. For those people that are listening only, it is a rectangular, fairly flat level construction, various different levels to it, multicolored. What does it represent?
Rebecca Heald:This is just going to come out how it's meant to come out. So for me, this represents an organization in the construction industry. Okay, and you pointed out there about the different colors, the different shapes, the different sizes. You know, purposefully there is some, there is diversity within the organization, but you know, and as you can see here, I've got some bridges in here because there are people that are trying within the organisation that are trying to build bridges to encourage the organisation to grow. I've got different levels because, again, there are people within the organisation that are growing, but there's only to a certain extent, and the reason that I kept it like a rectangle as well is because I feel like all of the everything within this organisation is kind of it's kept insular, it's not, it's not spreading, it's not doing what it needs to do, it's not growing as well as it needs to.
Rebecca Heald:I wanted it to be. I wanted to show some kind of diversity within it, though, because I think that it's an it's a construction business that's trying, it's looking at things that it needs to do, but it's struggling. It's struggling it's really struggling with it in terms of its innovation is sustainability and the way it's driving things forward, and the reason that it's struggling is because it's focusing too much on processes, procedures, in order to drive forward with sustainability, and what it's not doing is really thinking about its people, thinking about how it connects with its people and how it unlocks engagement and innovation. And I think, when it gets its head around the fact that sustainability doesn't just mean having, you know, reducing your carbon footprint, looking at greener materials, looking at circular economy, but over a period of time, this isn't going to happen, like you know, in in a matter of weeks or a matter of months. It's going to be a sustainable process and and, of course, then what's going to happen is that it's going to have a ripple effect.
Rebecca Heald:So, for me, I feel like if you've got an organization that focuses on this, it becomes the leader on it in it. It will then create, you know, change within the organization. It will create an opportunity to embrace innovation, to look at new ways of doing things, so that then we can at the minute, the industry is having like 39, I think 39 of carbon emissions, you know, come for the construction industry, and we're focusing so much on how we can reduce that through, you know, greener ways of thinking. But I think, until we start thinking about how the you know the connection between people. We're not going to be able to do that. So at the minute it's in a bit of a barren state on the table, but this will all be green and flowery and lovely because a lot of the biodiversity will be there and it'll be thriving. People will be biking to work and smiling and being happy. So, yeah, it's the catalyst for change.
Rebecca Heald:And of course, the catalyst is working with me, that's great, I love that, rebecca.
Darren Evans:We're now at the point where you can and I'm going to raise my iPad destroy the myth.
Rebecca Heald:Okay, it's going to go.
Darren Evans:I love that two-handed swipe off the table. Yeah, I've got one little piece left, got to get rid of that one. Okay, good. I love the point that you have come up with with the connection between sustainability and inclusion and how the two are meshed and in one of the same thing. I'm interested in understanding experiences that you've had of organizations where it's working well and how they got there great question.
Rebecca Heald:You know, and I think there is enough evidence out there to support what I'm saying. Definitely, you know, is it something like? I think, teams that have got you know, that embrace cognitive diversity and promote cognitive diversity, um, you know they are meeting their sustainability targets, you know, substantially quicker, um, than than teams that are more, um, you know, that are that are less. And yeah, in terms of my work, it's never the hardest thing, right, the hardest thing is that this isn't the kind of thing that just happens overnight. Okay, so what I tend to find, or what I have found in the past, is that an organisation that will ask me to do a one-off piece of work, to do a cognitive diversity workshop, to do some, you know, some light touch leadership training, that it's really really hard to measure then the impact of that. So what I am finding is those organizations that are working alongside me, that are working in partnership with me, they are looking at different ways of doing things, so they are looking at how they can be more flexible. So I've had some organisations where, say, for example this is just a small example, but I was working in one SME I think there was about 120 staff and he did. He did say to me says I've realised, you know that we're getting, we're getting more women, women on board and I want to retain them. I want to keep them because I recognise that you know the impact that they're having in terms of, you know, doing things differently. And he said but you know, I am, I think you know. He was like I said the retention was a bit of an issue and as I dug into it a bit more, it was like well, you know, no, of course my team can be flexible. You know, if women have got children, then they can go home and pick up the children and work from home the rest of the day, or they can come in a bit later.
Rebecca Heald:I was like that's great, but how many are doing it? Well, they're not really doing it, rebecca. And I'm like, okay, what time do you get into the office? Oh well, I make sure my wife takes the kids to school and I'm always in for 8am and I don't leave till 6pm. You know, know, and, yeah, my wife does. And I was like, well, you're not leading by example. You may have a policy that says, yes, we're flexible, ok, but actually if you're demonstrating that you know you need to be in the office Monday to Friday 8 till 6,. How is that going to create a culture where people feel that it's safe and it's OK to do that, you know? So it's just it's safe and it's okay to do that. So it's just. It's those small things that I think over time, have an impact.
Darren Evans:When you mentioned that to him, though, was that a light bulb moment, or was? How did that land?
Rebecca Heald:There was resistance. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna sit here and go. I'm not gonna sit here and go. Yeah, it was brilliant and over time we turned everything around.
Darren Evans:I'm not, I'm not. You know, I'm not, I'm not what was how did that resistance show up from him? What?
Rebecca Heald:excuses or what. What was his comeback? There wasn't really any, it was just. I think what he tried to kind of explain is that how, in his mind, you know him doing that and him putting the bulk of the childcare responsibilities on his wife that worked in their situation Okay, in the bulk of the childcare responsibilities on his wife. That worked in their situation, okay. And it's not up to me to comment on anybody's relationship situation, whatever. All I'm saying is, obviously, by doing that, he's putting pressure on other people to do the same. Okay.
Rebecca Heald:But for me sorry, going off on a tangent but it was like well, that's how I've got to where I am, that's how I've built my business. I've had to make sacrifices, you know, and I'm and that's a really tricky mindset to to challenge and overcome. Because until we start to see more businesses thriving and there are, there are plenty of examples of businesses that are thriving without that, without that mindset, but we need to see more of it. We need to see more of it in the construction industry, because until we do see that happening, there's always going to be well, you can't build a business, you can't grow a business, unless you are nine to five, monday to friday in front of your laptop, in front of clients, whatever. You know that that has to change, but it's almost like you know the, the psychology of it, the process of change. You always need to see it happening first, don't you, in order to believe and buy into it.
Darren Evans:It's interesting that you're bringing up that because there's another director in my consultancy that I've got. That's got a very, very different lifestyle to what I have, primarily because his children are younger than what mine are. So I will come into the office extremely early and I will work for a period of time and then I'll stop in the middle of the day and then I'll go off and spend some time with my wife. It's really short distance for me to get back home again. I'll probably go to the gym and then I'll go back and then work until the evening, and he's got a completely different routine. He'll come in quite late and then he'll leave generally kind of around four o'clock. Sometimes five o'clock is when he'll go.
Darren Evans:But one of the things that we both do as leaders of the organization is if there's something that comes up where we need to be a child's event or something goes on that we are needed in some way, shape or form, we'll communicate that out to the team and we'll say that we are needed in some way, shape or form. We'll communicate that out to the team and we'll say I'm leaving it this time or I'm not in here because, and then we'll say this is what the situation is with our family. So what I found from that is that when someone needs a doctor's appointment, when someone needs to go and take care of a member of the family or whatever that looks like, that they feel justified or accepted in coming and saying look, really sorry, something's come up last minute. This is where I am, but it but it is kind of the whole kind of monkey see, monkey, do is like I'm seeing that you're doing this yourself, so I feel quite safe copying you.
Darren Evans:Yeah, everything gets done that needs to get done. There's the odd occasion where someone needs to work late or someone does something over the weekend, but there isn't the expect, expectation that someone needs to do that. People just do it in of their own. You know free choice and and and I really resonate with what you're saying there is that if I would have and the like, the other director would have acted in a different way and we would have said to everyone look, we've got flexible working, you can fit stuff in and around. If something comes up, feel free to go and do that. I can see definitely how there would be some resistance there, because they're looking at the leadership of the organization saying they're not doing it so I don't feel safe doing it and this is my point as well and that you know, policies, procedures, processes don't mean anything if we're not walking the walk and doing it.
Rebecca Heald:And I would love to say here as well, not love to say, I'm going to say you know that there is no one size fits all yes okay, every organization and this is the thing is that when people come to me and go, well, what, what are you going to do for me?
Rebecca Heald:what's the healed method going to do? And I'm always like it's a partnership and it's a journey and what will happen is that, you know, I'm gonna kind of, you know, sometimes it can be uncomfortable because it will be like, well, look, I'm, I think that this needs to be done in a different way. Um, and let's have a conversation about that. Um, but, yeah, you know. Again, you're talking about how, within your organization, you were making it clear you know when you were going're talking about how, within your organisation, you were making it clear you know when you were going to do X, y, z, so that then other people could see that. But then, on the other hand, I've got a client who his team work remote, quite a lot hybrid and you know it's like, well, if they've got a doctor's appointment, a hospital appointment, if their child's got a school, an afterschool, play, whatever, they don't need to tell me. They don't need to tell me what they're doing, I don't need to tell them if I'm going to be leaving early. We just have this mutual understanding that that's okay. So that's another way of doing it. There is no one model that suits and we need to come away from.
Rebecca Heald:I remember when I first was thinking about the healed method and and kind of how I was going to communicate it, market it, bane, bane of my life, I can't stick to processes and procedures myself. So, anyway, and it was like, I was like, oh, I'm going to come up with a blueprint. I was like, but it's not a blueprint because there is no one way of doing this. And this is the thing as well. You know, and I am seeing it. So I've worked, I worked recently with an architect's firm and they took that approach approach and they've, they've grown. They've had to move into new buildings, they've grown their team, you know, they've got a real nice gender balance as well, or mix of genders within within the office.
Rebecca Heald:But one thing I will say is that I think that sometimes it comes down to well. It does always come down to the leadership within that organization. So this architect's firm, the reason that they've done you know they're doing so well is one. He's, you know, the guy who's leading the office is. He's a young man with a young family, you know, and he's like this is the way I'm going to do things, and so this is how you know. This is how you know I'm going to let things work here as well, and obviously I feel really passionate about unlocking potential and, you know, unlocking engagement. That's how you drive sustainability. That's how you know we are going to do.
Rebecca Heald:Sustainability is massive and we're going off on different tangents here. I'm sorry, but you know I think this is the way my mind works. But you know we we're in a position now where we have got so many more innovative solutions okay, we've got, you know, so many um. You know we've got greener materials. We've got carbon reducing bricks out there on the market. You know circular economy is doing amazing things. You know green concrete, green steel.
Rebecca Heald:What I'm trying to say is 10, 15, 20 years ago right, we didn't have all of this at our fingertips. Yes, there were a lot of concepts like modern methods of construction. I was talked about modern methods of construction recently on my LinkedIn and I was going oh, it's not modern, rebecca, what are you talking about? I was like, no, so why are we still calling it modern? I agree with you, but the reason and what I'm trying to say you see you here is we're so resistant in the industry, leadership is so archaic within the industry that we're still not driving forward. We'll have all of these amazing solutions that that are there, and I know I've gone a long way around saying what I'm trying to say, but I think that in order to embrace all of this it's all there, the you know we don't need to be.
Rebecca Heald:You know that's going to happen. Technology is going to move things forward, but we're not going to embrace it as an industry if we're not going to embrace, you know, the differences that we bring within that and my neurodiverse diversions, neurodiversity, whatever you want to call it. You know it was just what's the word. It was never appreciated, it was never understood, it was always kind of kept under, you know, within the confines of what I was working in. And now all of a sudden, I can go out and I can do what I'm doing and I'm able to achieve the things that I've achieved in such a short amount of time and I kind of almost say look, I'm a micro of what I'm wanting to see organisations do within the industry. I've gone a long way around that Do you know what you've said.
Darren Evans:There is, summed up, what I've taken away from this discussion, which is the real beauty and the real joy here, is in allowing and permitting things to expand and grow and flourish, and instead of spending time putting boxes and lids on things, let's spend time feeding and fertilizing things, because what will grow out of it will be far more beautiful than what it is. That you think it is in your mind, and so I'm hearing that that is the. The experience that you have come to in your own life is that for years and years, I've tried to contain this, and that's what beauty is. But no, actually I need to take the lid off and take the walls off and nourish and feed those things that I am really good at and I'm really passionate about, and share that with other people, because I'm flourishing and I know other people will do the same.
Darren Evans:Exactly, and they're flourishing will look different to mine, but that's what makes a beautiful garden. Rebecca, I've loved having you on the podcast. Thank you, appreciate you coming on, coming on. Um, I'm just thinking here just as a last piece of wisdom, last piece of advice. What is the one thing?
Rebecca Heald:that someone can do that will make all the difference. I think we just need to. One thing one person can do is open just open up their, their mind and open up their heart to possibilities.
Darren Evans:It's been great having you on?
Rebecca Heald:yes, you too, thank you, thank you.