Laura Haley: [00:00:00] Hi, travel creators! Today. I will bring you a very special episode in this episode. You get to hear from my very own sister, Emma, who is an account director. At a very awesome design company and an account director basically means she is the middleman between all of the client accounts and the creative team.
So she's just going back and forth. Basically she's the woman who knows. What the right and the left hand are doing, whether she likes it or not. Today, she's going to be dropping some info on how, as a travel creator, you can manage working with so many different clients and brands at one time without losing your mind. We're also going to talk about some red flags with client work. And a whole lot more.
I can barely believe I'm letting her go rogue on my podcast, but without further ado here she is.
Emma Dorge: So I am [00:01:00] the account director at Hoot Design Company, which is a culture driven branding agency. In Columbia, Missouri, and we are a small woman led team, and I've been there for about five years. In my role, we wear many different hats on a small team. I am responsible for the client experience and client relationships,
Laura Haley: So, what are some of the things you wish you knew sooner about working with clients, or especially trying to manage multiple at once?
Client relationships. It Is a lot easier when you just think about the phrase be human. remembering that you're just working with other people and the same expectations you would want around a really good relationship are applicable.
Emma Dorge: And some of those things, That are really simple, but oftentimes hard to do when you're in like the hustle and bustle of work or life. All of this is being proactive. And if you're proactive, it really [00:02:00] solves a ton of problems. You're able to have more. Room up front to strategize better, to iron out your ideas in a more refined way.
I love you, Emma, and you are good at your job, but I am stopping pausing right here. Do you just say that?
Emma is good at her job, but. She is an agent of chaos. You are an agent of chaos. From dropping her Motorola razor phone through the slats of a dock in the middle of a remote name to. standing in a corn field in mud that is knee high, asking people for money for parking. To eat. All of the tales of shrimp during a dinner with her college boyfriend's family, because this Midwestern girl didn't know how to consume east coast food. Okay.
Our resume with our expertise.
Emma Dorge: You're able to stay ahead of timelines, problem solving. It just [00:03:00] makes everything easier. And for me on the agency side, when I'm working with clients and I'm proactive, it helps them feel very comfortable and confident that the investment they're making working with me is well organized. You know, they feel top of mind if I'm saying, Hey, just so you know, we're looking ahead two weeks and this is what we've got planned for you.
Emma Dorge: Is that still on track with your goals? That type of proactive communication really goes a long way in managing and maintaining what we call a healthy client relationship.
Did you hear that? Yes. Go rewind. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's a 15 second rewind button on these podcasts for a reason. Use it. Basically. Emma is letting us know that the more you are proactive, the better. Your experience is going to be managing clients. And specifically when you're a travel creator, it's in the title.
You're never going to be in one place at once. And so. If you know your schedule ahead of [00:04:00] time and can say, or you have the power to. Create your own schedule and know where you are going to be when you can decide and let clients or brands know that, Hey. May. X through X, I'm going to be out in the woods and I will have what you need from me before that time or after, but just letting you know that communication back and forth between us is going to be slow during this time.
That is so helpful. And honestly, I think about the small things. That you can do that really makes the experience between you and anybody you're working with. Feel above and beyond. For example, just letting people know when you're not going to be available or at least sending acknowledgement messages, meaning. I am acknowledging that I'm seeing this message from you.
I am not in a place to respond right now, but I will be getting back to you soon. You are on my radar, that kind of stuff.
This also helps with managing client expectations, which is like an entire other ball game. [00:05:00] But it helps to keep everything in check and moving along. And then the people you are working with. Can no. Okay. Laura is going to let me know when she's gone. And I also in return, expect her to tell me when she is back and we can get down to business.
I love when people do that to me. And I do that to other people just because I want them to know that you are important to me. And I do see what you're sending me and I'll respond to you.
When it makes most sense for me.
Okay. what are some red flags?
Emma Dorge: I have a saying about red flags.
Emma Dorge: And it's, it's one of these two things. It's either the flag doesn't get less red once you see a red flag. Or, once the red flag goes up, it really never comes back down. It's one of those two. But I say those all the time at work. And my boss is always like, I gotta write that down. That's so good. So.
Laura Haley: when you're considering working with a new client and you're getting [00:06:00] to know each other to figure out if it's a good fit, what are some red flags that you can see coming from a mile away that you're like, all right, we need to, we need to run?
Emma Dorge: I think the simplest answer to that question, which is very nuanced, is a lack of boundaries. So for example. we like to call it courting a new client where we did a little project with them. We want to work with them longer and they are constantly asking for calls on Saturdays or Friday afternoons.
Emma Dorge: They're like, Hey, we have this urgent thing. And Really pushing to say, okay, Hey, like we need you. It's super important when we can clearly see based on the like deliverable and timeline, it's not. So one of the biggest red flags that we can see in the beginning of a client relationship or when we're deciding if it's going to be a good fit is lack of boundaries and those can come across in a variety of ways.
Laura Haley: You can also have, I've heard of, beige flags. So it's like, hmm, this [00:07:00] isn't full red yet, but this is like, you're almost there.
Emma Dorge: I feel like I live in a world of beige.
Emma Dorge: So that's, that's true. like we have three values at work and a ton of companies have values and a ton of people have a bunch of posters on the wall with words that feel inspiring and motivating, but often mean nothing. But what's really cool about the company I work for is these values actually mean something.
Emma Dorge: And I know what they are and I know what they mean within our organization. We have behaviors around them. So I know how to act within that value. And we filter our clients through those values to make sure it's a really good fit and that practice and exercise allows us to ensure that the people we are going to work with, because it's a relationship.
Emma Dorge: It's a long term, hopefully if you were doing it right, a long term investment that both parties, the client and in my case, the agency are excited to embark on.
I think the more that you work with.
Clients and [00:08:00] brands, you'll start to realize what your red flags are. Yes. It's like a general list for sure. That you could find on the internet, but I think they become much more personal to you. Once you are clear on the type of people you want to work with and your values.
Laura Haley: what advice would you give to a curator who, okay, they come across this brand or this client and it seems like a really good gig and it just, they're kind of given beige flags or red flags, but this person is maybe new to working with clients and they just are excited by the money but they know it's not going to be a great, maybe it's not going to be a great situation.
Laura Haley: What advice would you give to them?
Emma Dorge: I think what's important is for that travel creator to make sure they know what they actually want. Do they actually want a contract that gives them more money or do they actually want a contract that aligns? With who they are, what they represent, what they enjoy doing, and maybe it doesn't pay as much, but it gives you the [00:09:00] flexibility or lifestyle benefits that travel creators would want.
Emma Dorge: I think it's easy to be really excited about huge opportunities or even small ones that come across. But if they bog you down or they don't light you up, it's, you have to really know yourself to be able to ask, is this what I want to do?
When you're trying to figure out what kind of people you like to work with. I try and think about, okay, who am I currently working with now? What projects am I currently working with now? And which of those two. Things make me. I don't want to skip them. Meaning. which projects or clients am I so excited about or just love so much? That I don't mind. Traveling 1500 miles to work with them. Or. Even if maybe they're not a client in your ideal niche or ideal scenario, they are just good people. And good people to have in your corners.
That's another thing to consider when you're trying to decide.
Is this [00:10:00] going to be a good opportunity for me? You can kind of do a little like vibe check or they, are they my kind of people or do I kind of have to shove myself into a box to work with them?
Laura Haley: What are your opinions on influencers who are like, I only partner with brands I believe and trust in? Which like, fair enough. We all want to believe the best in everybody, but there are clearly people out there who just do it for the money. Do you think there's no nice way to say this, but that most people will probably just do deals with brands or work with crappy clients because of the money.
Laura Haley: Do you have any thoughts on that?
Emma Dorge: Well, these are the many reasons that I am no longer on Instagram regularly and my life has never been better. So, while that doesn't go strong for your audience or, you know, what you're building out there, I'm a lot happier having been off social media for quite some time.
And this is exactly what I [00:11:00] help travel creators do, which might seem counterintuitive. But my whole goal is to give people the opportunity to enjoy the destinations they're visiting. They don't feel like they have to open their Instagram story.
Every 10 steps of their trip.
Emma Dorge: So how I feel about influencers is probably, Hmm, how to say this? you could probably guess what my stance is, it's like, I get it. I love it for you. I think a little part of me is jealous because one time I was taking photos of myself in like 2016 outside of our little rental house with my new camera.
Emma Dorge: And Clayton was like, what are you doing? And I was like, I'm trying to make my little website page. And he was like, okay, well you're definitely never going to be an influencer. So just like, that's not really like your vibe. And I think I've been disheartened ever since.
Emma Dorge: And I just think what would the influencer world be if he had never said that? And I would probably be the best influencer out there. influencers. Awesome. You have built a personal [00:12:00] brand. Around something you stand up for and believe in and like, good for you.
Emma Dorge: And
Emma Dorge: You have worked hard. I hope that you have defined who you are and what you actually want at the end of the day, before you go and pursue any kind of relationship, whether it's this huge, sexy, expensive contract, or if it's, you know, your first thing and you're just trying to get off the ground.
Emma Dorge: I just think it goes back to knowing who you are and what you want to do. Um, And then that will give you a lot of clarity to make these small decisions in figuring out who you want to work with.
Laura Haley: What are your tips for managing many client relationships at once and trying to keep everybody happy without feeling like a people pleaser?
Emma Dorge: The easiest advice is don't do it. No, I'm just kidding. Um, no, really managing a lot of client relationships, you have to be very organized.
Emma Dorge: You have to understand the priority of the relationship, which is often hard to do because, you know, all clients are important. Everyone's making an investment with you, but at the [00:13:00] end of the day, there are certain clients that are making a bigger investment or align more with where you want to go and you need to understand how to prioritize and where to spend your time working with those people.
Emma Dorge: I have been in a ton of client relationships where I had absolutely zero boundaries and I would work myself into the ground, never stop working. go to work, come home from work, work more. And it would just be like, that's all I knew how to do. And it's so easy to do client work because you're always working for someone else.
Emma Dorge: You know, they're always going to be asking you for things or, you know, you want to impress them or being proactive. Like I talked about a little bit ago, I think it's important to be able to step back and ask yourself, are you actually doing the best work for them? If you were just blading away at.
Emma Dorge: The task at hand instead of like taking a step back. so I just think without boundaries in a client relationship or in any work in general, no boundaries will lead to burn out no matter how much you love the work. [00:14:00] And I think that no matter what industry you're in, or no matter what you're doing.
Emma Dorge: Finding things outside of work that you like allows you to feel better about having boundaries because you have something else to do besides just the work that you are, either making a living from or what you probably enjoy doing.
Laura Haley: Do you find that you and or your team is more respected because you have set boundaries rather than being like, willy nilly, I can do this for you whenever I want? Absolutely.
Emma Dorge: We have, yes, absolutely. When boundaries are in place, I think everyone feels better because they know when to push or when not to.
Emma Dorge: And we have this saying where it's like soft front, hard back. And so when we're working with each other, It's like, okay, I, I have empathy. I understand you have a lot going on, but we have a firm boundary of, okay, I'm not going to like to extend beyond that boundary. And that boundary gets to be set by yourself, obviously to appropriate [00:15:00] measures, like you can't just keep saying, I don't want to do something or not get the work done, but when you have boundaries, I think people at first are.
Emma Dorge: Sometimes like taking it back or maybe a little bit off put by that boundary. But if you're comfortable with that, it's totally fine. So I'll give you an example. Like Fridays, I work a four day work week this year for the first time, because I don't have childcare and so old Emma, I call her, would have been like, it's no problem.
Emma Dorge: You can just call me all day long. Like, it's okay. Just text me. I'm just like at home, like with Kate and no problem. Or go ahead and schedule that client meeting on Friday. Like, I'll make it work. And okay, the hard truth is that it happened on a Friday this year? Sure has. But it's only happened a couple of times and new Emma, as I like to call her, says, you know what?
Emma Dorge: I work really hard for this company that I love and respect. And I love the work and I love our clients and I love our team, but this is something that's really [00:16:00] important to me. And I'm so much better when I have that clear, like, Hey, I'm off Fridays. That means like, I will get back to you as soon as I sign on.
Emma Dorge: Sometimes I love signing on on the weekend because it's like my prerogative, my choice. And. Yeah, it's, the boundaries have been really good from that. And people can then work around that instead of this, like, you know, it's the same thing when you take PTO or like time off, but then you're actually working during that.
Emma Dorge: And it's like, okay, well now the team's confused because you're sending messages when you were supposed to be off. So nobody feels like they can make a decision or move work forward because you're just like beat popping in slack, like, yo, I'm still here, but not really. It just causes a ton of chaos.
Emma Dorge: and confusion. So boundaries have been nothing but good. I think the only thing I would caution around boundaries is you have to have the awareness to know when those need to flex, especially when you're in a client relationship.
Don't let her fool you, don't let her fool you.
If anyone ever meets Emma, [00:17:00] I would love to know her. I would love to know her. That would be great. But Emma definitely works very hard. And definitely nighttime, but.
This is a do, as she says, and not as she does the situation. But yes.
Yes. Just like Emma saying here, sometimes some clients are more important than others and if you are my client, No go away. You're all very important, but.
You have to know and realize what projects are the biggest priority right now. That I'm going to have to let this other project for this other client, which does feel very important right now. Take the number two seat. Because this client in front of me, I know has really good opportunities for me. I am so excited to help them that I'm going to make them the priority. And it's so easy to get lost in the sauce of everything that feels important.
And this is where I'm going to mention a book rack of one of my favorites. It's essential [00:18:00] ism by Greg. Can't remember his last name, Greg. But it is one of my favorite books, because it talks about if you don't prioritize your day or your life, somebody else will. And that is so hard to do, especially when you start managing so many different clients. But what I like to do is just think about, okay, this is what's going on this week.
What are the very most important things? Everything is important. Sure. But what are the most important top priority things that have to happen today to help move the needle? Either in this long-term client relationship or on some specific project?
I think some things to keep in mind when you're managing a client relationship for it to be successful is being proactive.
Emma Dorge: I know we talked about that. But when I say proactive, it's like, it's not being on your heels. Because when you're on your heels, you can't react in the best way. And you have a ton of momentum when you're proactive, you can like, think ahead, think clearly, move the project forward and move the relationship forward.
Emma Dorge: And then you get to this fun phase where you're realizing you're just [00:19:00] working with people and you get to celebrate their wins. So like we have some of the most incredible clients. As of late, someone texts to say, Hey, I know you're out. Cause your daughter's sick thinking of you, don't worry about this timeline, we'll get it when we can.
Emma Dorge: And it's like, that is absolutely unheard of, but I think it's because we have such a great relationship where they know I'm more than just the email that comes across their desk and it's such a cool feeling to have that kind of interaction. Something else to keep in mind when you're working with clients or you're in a client relationship is there's some really interesting statistics out there that it's 70 percent easier to upsell or continue to work with someone that you're already working with than starting from absolute zero or doing like cold reach out or trying to get someone to work with you.
Emma Dorge: And when you think about that alone, That's where I'm like relationships and the experience that these clients are having is everything like, what is the tone of these [00:20:00] relationships? How are we improving them? Are we going to do a little bit more for them that they're not going to pay for, but they're going to see the value in so that they can continue to work with us are just really important things to keep in mind.
Emma Dorge: You're obviously, I think if you focus on building the relationship, you will notice that the, let's just call it the client investment is naturally going to increase as well.
Laura Haley: That is so good. I think, I've been saying in some of these episodes is like, you, 90 percent of the people you meet on the internet or get to know are good people, and if you are being a good person, the good people will find you, and the same works with finding clients, is if you're doing shitty work, or just like not, Trying to get really clear on who you want to work with, then you're going to find wishy washy clients.
Laura Haley: And then, also, companies have to spend so much more money, like thousands of dollars. Think of like Capital One or like any type of credit card ever to attract more clients [00:21:00] than keep you on. I don't know why banks and credit cards always come to mind, but it would cost them so much more in marketing, like almost millions of dollars to find new customers than to try and keep the current ones they have.
Laura Haley: So you can also, that's an interesting way to think about client work as well. Before we talk about branding, what is one client horror story that did not happen in this job? And
Emma Dorge: we've seen it all. This is definitely not the worst thing that happened, but the first thing that came to mind was we were at this massive trade show, and the client had gone through many rounds of revisions for this huge photo, like I'm talking like a 60 by 40 foot activation wall, and This photo had been edited a hundred times.
Emma Dorge: Something was not photoshopped, you didn't notice it when it was on your computer screen, but when it was blown up at 60x40, you saw it, and the client was really mad.
Laura Haley: How do you, when things like that go bad with clients, or like something bad happens, how do you [00:22:00] recover? How do you deal with that?
Emma Dorge: It's like 100 percent transparency.
Emma Dorge: if you made the mistake, just own up to it. Hopefully you have a team that would understand. Like one time when I was doing a client budget, I forgot to add a, when I was calculating all of these things, I missed the last little Excel spell in my spreadsheet.
Emma Dorge: it didn't tally up some of the boxes, which some of those boxes had high dollar values in them. And when I sent it to the client, they were approved. And then at the end of the year, we realized, oopsie poopsie, we're missing about 50, 000 on this account.
Emma Dorge: And it was just like terrible conversations that we ironed out and it all got worked out at the end of the day. But, details are important, people. Details are important. And if you're not good at details, find people who are
Especially, if you are trying to turn your travel creator journey into a long term and sustainable business, [00:23:00] you cannot do it alone. As much as you think that you might be able to do it alone, you can't because I was one of those people and now. I rely heavily on other people to help me. So that I can focus on some of the most important things in my work, and they can do the detailed spreadsheet formulas.
That is clearly not my expertise. No.
Or is it Emma's.
Laura Haley: This is proof that you don't need caffeine when you work with clients because stuff like that probably keeps you up all night and all day.
And aside from being an account director, Emma builds brands for business. And so she couldn't help herself, but drop some more knowledge for you on branding.
Emma Dorge: I think the most important thing about a brand is it needs to be clear and it needs to be emotional. And if it's neither of those two things, is it doing anything for anyone?
Laura Haley: What do you mean by emotional? Like it has to elicit emotions from your audience? Yeah, like,
Emma Dorge: make me feel something. Do I have goosebumps? Am I crying? Am I [00:24:00] mad? Because some, if you're doing brand well, it's going to repel a lot of people.
Emma Dorge: And if you're doing brand right, it's going to make you feel like I am on board. Like, Yeah, that's how I feel.
If you want even more information on branding and what the heck that is and why it matters for travel creators. Go back one episode. And check out my chat with Andrea, who is a branding. Expert and a digital nomad. Um, right now. Emma, and I are recording this so very late at night and we were both way too similar in the fact that she is. Going on a trip tomorrow and packing right now while we're trying to do this recording. And she is currently stuffed in the closet. Minced all her hanging close.
Dropping this information for you.
If you want to connect with my millennial sister, you sure can. She is no longer on the ground, but she has great photos there at And her website is pretty cool too. I will admit [00:25:00] she's quiet, she's quite the knack for photography. That is also www.emmadorge.com, but she writes weekly on sub stack where you can find her. I am also sharing just stories of her agent of chaotic life.
Emma Dorge: The best place to reach me is on my sub stack where I've been publishing 26 weeks in a row. It will be 27, coming up soon. And I write essays about motherhood, friendship, community, but mostly how tired I am. And you can find it on Substack. Just search Emma Dorge. She's almost as funny as me. And like, see, I could have been an influencer.
Emma Dorge: Subscribe below. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Thank you, Emma. Goodbye. Subscribe and leave a review if you want more of this.
Thank you travel creators. I hope you learned something here on how to manage client relationships, especially when you start working with a whole bunch of them.
Happy creating, and I [00:26:00] will see you next week.
Emma Dorge: We should plug our high school podcast idea in case anyone's listening.
Laura Haley: Oh, okay. Perfect. Okay.
Emma Dorge: So, So I'll summarize it because Go ahead. The world doesn't need more Gen Z energy in the room.
Emma Dorge: I'm just kidding. I'm losing it now because I think there's like no air flow in here. So, um, Here's our podcast idea. The podcast idea is Lauren and I went to a pretty, um, Mediocre high school where we had a ton of fun, but the curriculum was not as rigorous as maybe some or any of the other high schools that a lot of people we went to college with attended.
Emma Dorge: The gist of the podcast is. Where we reread all of the high school classics that we should have read in high school, and is that it? Is that the gist?
Laura Haley: Yeah, and also, that was a very eloquently stated explanation of our high school experience. That was very PC, um, which we will not, which we will uncover in the podcast.
Laura Haley: But I also think it would [00:27:00] be fun if we tried to actually maybe like learn math. That could be good. Or like, try and take a chemistry class, cause I never did that. Oh, I did that and you don't want to do that.
Emma Dorge: Mm mm.
Laura Haley: But that's our podcast idea. If you like this idea, please subscribe. Come to me on Instagram at Travel Content Writing and let me know if you want to hear more from Emma and I rehashing everything we should have learned in high school.
Emma Dorge: I love it. Marie, don't include that part.
Laura Haley: Marie, include that part.
