7. What Challenges Faces the Vehicle-to-Grid Technology?

In the latest episode of Insiders Guide to Energy, listeners are treated to a deep dive into the future of electric vehicles and their pivotal role in energy innovation. Claire Broido Johnson, COO of Fermata Energy, joins hosts Chris Sass and Jeff McCauley for a captivating discussion on Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) technology. This groundbreaking concept allows electric vehicles to not only draw power from the grid but also to feed energy back, transforming them into dynamic energy assets. Claire brings her extensive experience in the energy sector to the table, shedding light on the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead in harnessing the full potential of EVs.

The conversation explores the intricate aspects of V2G technology, addressing the hurdles in the way of its widespread adoption. Key issues such as the complexities in the interconnection process with utilities, the impact on EV battery warranties, and the current reluctance of utility companies to embrace this innovation are thoughtfully examined. Claire's insights reveal the nuanced landscape of EV technology, highlighting the need for a collaborative effort between various industry players. Despite these challenges, the episode paints an optimistic picture of a future where bidirectional chargers are the norm, and electric vehicles play a crucial role in decentralizing and decarbonizing the energy grid.

As the world moves towards a more sustainable future, this episode of Insiders Guide to Energy positions itself as a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of renewable energy and electric vehicles. The in-depth analysis provided by Claire Broido Johnson offers valuable perspectives on the economic and environmental benefits of V2G technology. It is not just a discussion but a roadmap to a future where electric vehicles are not just modes of transportation but key contributors to a more efficient and sustainable energy ecosystem. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for professionals, enthusiasts, and anyone keen on understanding the future of energy and mobility.

links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-broido-johnson/ 

Transcript

Transcript 

00:00:04 Speaker 1 

Broadcasting from the commodity capital of the world, Zurich, Switzerland, this is insiders guide to energy. 

00:00:20 

Addition to insiders guide to energy is brought to you by fidectus. 

00:00:24 

Go to www.fidectus.com For more information. 

00:00:59 Speaker 2 

This episode of Insiders Guide to Energy EV Miniseries is powered by paua. Paua helps your business transition to electric vehicles by simplifying charging, managing payments, and optimizing your charging data. 

00:01:13 Speaker 2 

Welcome to insiders guide to energy. I'm your host Chris Sass with me this week is Jeff McCauley, and we are hosting the Insiders guide to Energy EV miniseries. One of the episodes of many that we're doing a deep dive into. Evie. Jeff, why don't you kick off the show and tell us what we going to talk about today? 

00:01:36 Speaker 2 

Welcome to insiders guide to energy. I'm your host Chris Sass, and with me this week is Jeff McCauley. Jeff, we're going to talk Evie miniseries. We're well into the series by this point for our audience today, we're talking bidirectional charging. I think it's an exciting. 

00:01:48 Speaker 2 

Topic but why? 

00:01:49 Speaker 2 

Don't you go ahead and just kick us off and get us into it. 

00:01:59 Speaker 3 

This is really exciting, Chris. We will be talking about. 

00:02:02 Speaker 3 

V2G. 

00:02:03 Speaker 3 

And we have with us a true industry insider, Claire Broido Johnson is the chief operating officer of Fermata Energy, a leader in bidirectional charging for EV's. But Claire is amazing. 

00:02:19 Speaker 3 

Not only for her current role, but an illustrious career in energy, including as a board member, advisor, investor and executive, going back to her Co, founding of Sun Edison and his head roles in many different companies, including public service at the Department of Energy, Hannah Armstrong, next step living. 

00:02:39 Speaker 3 

The list goes on and on, so we're going to start with Claire talking about electric vehicles, but we have to go more into her background because she has such an amazing perspective to bring to this channel. 

00:02:50 Speaker 3 

Inch and orienting on. 

00:02:52 Speaker 3 

EVA's. This is a really exciting thing to be talking about because by some estimates in 20-30 there is an expected one terawatt hour of battery capacity in electric vehicles on the road just in the US. 

00:03:10 Speaker 3 

That's somewhere between 2:00 and 3:00 orders of magnitude where we are today and that number can be achieved with only 7% of vehicles on the road. So this is a tremendous, tremendous resource if we can figure out how to unlock it. And that's what I hope Claire can help us with today. 

00:03:28 Speaker 3 

Here. Wonderful to have you here. Welcome to the show. 

00:03:31 Speaker 4 

Thank you so much for having me, Jeff and Chris. 

00:03:35 Speaker 3 

So Claire at the top here, there's so many acronyms V to GV to LV to X. What? What are we talking about here? What's your preferred acronym and definition of of what that means? 

00:03:50 Speaker 4 

Sure, too many acronyms. That's something the energy industry does a great job of is too many acronyms. In fact, when I was at. 

00:03:55 Speaker 4 

The Department of Energy. 

00:03:55 Speaker 4 

I had to make a. 

00:03:56 Speaker 4 

List of you know 3 pages long of all the acronyms that were going around because no one understood. 

00:04:00 Speaker 4 

To each other. 

00:04:02 Speaker 4 

So vehicle to grid is V to GV to L is vehicle to load, V2B is vehicle buildings, V2H is vehicle to home, V to X is vehicle to everything. Obviously the market hasn't decided what it wants to do. The best SEO links that. 

00:04:20 Speaker 4 

End up being V2G, which is vehicle to grid, but the overall concept is the idea that your electric vehicle is an under utilized asset. There's a battery in that electric vehicle that happens to have to have wheels and. 

00:04:33 Speaker 4 

And and chairs in it, right? That moved you from place to place. 

00:04:36 Speaker 4 

So it's a. 

00:04:37 Speaker 4 

Completely underutilized asset and it can't discharge to the grid. That's the. That's what we at Vermont of Energy are doing. It can also discharge to your home so it can power your home. If your grid goes down. 

00:04:54 Speaker 4 

That's the Vt oh thing, and the Ford 150 that people are talking about. So. 

00:04:59 Speaker 4 

You know there's different use cases, different applications. What we at Vermont Energy are focused on is V2G vehicle to grid and currently vehicle buildings. So discharging the electricity from your vehicle which is your battery on wheels to the grid. The reason I joined from on the energy. 

00:05:20 Speaker 4 

Despite all of these acronyms all over the places, I really feel like this industry and electric vehicles and specifically vehicle to grid is at the intersection of three things. So if you think of a Venn diagram, we're at the intersection of 1 decentralizing and decarbonizing the grid. 

00:05:39 Speaker 4 

To increasing electric demand and three growth of EV's, and I've got Staffs about all that and we can talk about all that. But the reason I joined Vermont Energy is and I'm not a mobility person by background is because I really feel like mobility has to be part of the climate change solution in, in the context of decentralizing and decarbonizing the grid, increasing electric demand. 

00:05:59 Speaker 4 

And growth of Eva's. 

00:06:02 Speaker 2 

Where are we along this journey today? So we've been doing this TV miniseries there already a number of episodes in for our audience. You you've heard folks talk about grid and pieces like that. And this is a common question that I would ask because I think for early movers in early vehicle to grid type efforts that that I've been a part of and spoken with experts. 

00:06:21 Speaker 2 

On it tends to be fleets, right? It tended to be that the biggest bang for the buck near. 

00:06:27 Speaker 2 

Was hey, if I'm let's say a Fortune 100, Fortune 1000, I'm doing a fleet conversion. I'm probably easier to tie up and get a Big Bang for the environment and for the energy companies to plan for that. 

00:06:39 Speaker 2 

Are you are you still talking today? You. You gave all the acronyms, are we are we focused more on fleets or individual users at this point? 

00:06:46 Speaker 4 

Well, different use cases. So we at Vermont energy have been focusing on fleets to date. But if you look at what people really want, at least in the United States, they really want to be off grid. If the grid goes down. Now that you're seeing all of these grid problems in California and Texas, there were projections about grid problems in the Northeast, which didn't really happen because. 

00:07:06 Speaker 4 

We had a mild winter, but, you know, in terms of demand, there's certainly demand for fleet. 

00:07:13 Speaker 4 

There's demand for residential, not really vehicle to grid, but being off grid. So using your vehicle to power your house and then the third case use case which is really really getting pushed by the federal government is vehicle to grid with electric buses. 

00:07:30 Speaker 4 

There's an extraordinary amount amount of money via the IRA right now at the California Energy Commission. Colorado has a big program. The EPA has a big program, all pushing vehicle to Grid, electric school buses. So a bunch of different use cases. 

00:07:47 Speaker 3 

Yeah. So, Claire, talk to us about that financial opportunity because I'm I'm out of date on these numbers. When I looked maybe eight years ago, it was on the order of $100 per vehicle per year serving ancillary services markets you you've indicated that it could be much, much larger larger than that separate. 

00:08:07 Speaker 3 

From the state incentives for the infrastructure. 

00:08:11 Speaker 3 

For operating a vehicle in a grid responsive manner in the best markets in the US, what kind of numbers are we talking about in terms of potential? 

00:08:20 Speaker 4 

Revenue, sure. So let's let's talk about the states that are most interested in trying to support this and with the legislation that they have. 

00:08:30 Speaker 4 

So the six states that are most promising to us right now in the vehicle to grid space are those that have the highest demand response rates. 

00:08:38 Speaker 4 

And highest demand charge management rates and those right now happen to be Massachusetts. 

00:08:43 Speaker 4 

Island, Connecticut, New York, Colorado and California, and one of the best markets for us right now frankly happens to be Rhode Island with Rhode Island energy with a $400.00 per kilowatt demand response rate. So think about a Nissan Leaf, which is the first vehicle. 

00:09:03 Speaker 4 

Should be bidirectional. 

00:09:05 Speaker 4 

And that vehicle with a 20 kilowatt charger and has a 6060 to 64 kWh battery with one charger. If you discharge to the grid every time, Rhode Island energy asks you to do so, you can make up to $8000 one summer with a Nissan LEAF. 

00:09:24 Speaker 4 

It's a lot. 

00:09:24 Speaker 4 

Of money. 

00:09:25 Speaker 4 

Then of course, there's other parts in the United States where there's no demand response or very, very low demand response rates. So it's really very variable and you know a lot of what we do at Vermont Energy I spent yesterday in Maryland where I live in Annapolis, talking to legislators about the need for. 

00:09:42 Speaker 4 

Legislative changes so that, you know, demand response via the Empower Maryland program ends up becoming more valuable. It really is. It's, it's unfortunately run by public utility commissions and by utilities, some of whom are very anxious to have new battery solutions and some of whom. 

00:10:02 Speaker 4 

Are really not. 

00:10:04 Speaker 2 

So are are the consumers ready to to let let the demand response pull power out of their body? Right. There's always range anxiety. You know, the batteries have gotten good now. So there's there's quite a bit of distance. Most of the states you talked about are pretty densely populated in, in, in your commutes wouldn't be very long. You might be in traffic for a long time in Boston, but you know, your distances aren't great. 

00:10:24 Speaker 2 

Right. But are the consumers ready to seek control? I mean, obviously, if there's a payday, people like a payday. 

00:10:32 Speaker 2 

But they also would be nervous about. 

00:10:35 Speaker 2 

Seating control of their vehicle. 

00:10:36 Speaker 4 

Yeah, so so. 

00:10:38 Speaker 4 

That's an excellent question and there are a variety of responses to that. I'm not Pollyanna Ish about thinking that everyone wants to be a do gooder all the time. Our tagline is park it, plug it, profit. So if you're parking your car. 

00:10:53 Speaker 4 

Why not make money while it's parked and it, you know, most people have their vehicle parked 95% of the time and some of that time is going to be in peak hours where you're going to make a. 

00:11:03 Speaker 4 

Lot of money, but fundamentally people like their own stuff and they like their own vehicle and they want to drive their vehicle when they want to drive it. So you know, frankly, Vermont energy is full of data scientists and software engineers. 

00:11:16 Speaker 4 

And use case and when people want to use their car. 

00:11:21 Speaker 4 

Is one of the many variables that we use when we're optimizing. When someone could make the most money by discharging to the grid. So if you tell us ahead of time from 1:00 to 4:00 PM every Tuesday, I need to use my vehicle. Of course you're going to use your vehicle. I mean, the vehicle first and foremost. Again, I'm not a Pollyannaish. I think people are going to make money when it works for them. 

00:11:43 Speaker 4 

Right. So you're gonna use your vehicle whenever you're gonna use your vehicle. We're trying to focus on those people who want to make money when they're not using the vehicle and the vehicles parked anyway, which is 95% of the time for most people. 

00:11:59 Speaker 2 

Got it. And then I guess the the, the other question I have is battery cycles of charge and discharge, right. So you know, I think there's plenty of people that would see a payday especially you know, as long as that that the pricing is high enough to make it valuable. The the question is, is there also a consumer fear that? 

00:12:20 Speaker 2 

They only have so many charges and recharges in my battery and the life expectancy. I mean an EV battery lasts a very long time, or at least long time as a battery long for driving the car. But once you get to a certain percentage down, there's recycling where it goes into other uses. 

00:12:36 Speaker 2 

How do the owners and what's the? 

00:12:38 Speaker 2 

Market feel of that. 

00:12:39 Speaker 4 

Yeah. No, it's that is an excellent question. And I would say that's one of the biggest challenges holding back the opportunity is vehicle warranty. So we at Vermont of Energy, we're able to get Nissan to approve our charger and our platform. So that we do not void the warranty and there's been a ton of scientific research. 

00:12:59 Speaker 4 

Done about. 

00:13:01 Speaker 4 

Charge discharge charge. Discharge. How that impacts battery warranties? The OEM's are concerned about it. I'm not going to sugarcoat that either, but I think what we're going to find is that the OEM's are most progressive. We're going to figure out how many charges and how many discharges make sense over the course of a year that end up not impacting the battery. And that's, I mean that's that's. 

00:13:22 Speaker 4 

An ongoing story, but we were the first company in the country to get a a major OEM to say we are not voiding their warranty. 

00:13:32 Speaker 3 

And it seems like gosh for that revenue opportunity, $8000 a summer, if you could get that, you're paying for your leaf in you know three to four years, so. 

00:13:46 Speaker 3 

Worrying about voiding a warranty when you could pay for the entire car and buy it again in in four years I get obviously that's an ideal case in a very high price market, but it fine even if it's 1/2 or 1/3 of that, you're still significantly it's worth it. Basically, there's this financial case to be made there. 

00:13:55 Speaker 4 

It's an ideal case. That's great, right? 

00:14:07 Speaker 4 

Right. But I mean, again, we cannot, you know. 

00:14:10 Speaker 4 

This is this is new territory for me personally, right? I've worked with utilities my entire career, but now we are a teeny tiny little startup between a ton of behemoth utilities and a ton of behemoth OEM's. And you know, the OEM's have a lot of power in the electric vehicle space. They have been told by the market that. 

00:14:31 Speaker 4 

People want to buy electric vehicles, but they're doing that a bit, kicking and screaming, right? And so if they can use a warranty, a battery warranty to. 

00:14:42 Speaker 4 

Keep this from happening. They will do that. 

00:14:46 Speaker 3 

And I heard a recent interview with. 

00:14:48 Speaker 3 

Jim Farley at. 

00:14:49 Speaker 3 

Ford and he's pointing the finger at the utilities, right? Obviously the OEM's have some say in the matter, but he's making the oh, it's difficult to negotiate a rate there. It's different everywhere. Obviously. You highlighted that in the in the different states, even the leaders. 

00:14:53 Speaker 4 

There you go. 

00:15:06 Speaker 3 

It's going to be a patchwork for some time. How is that impacted your deployment and ramp rate? 

00:15:13 Speaker 4 

I mean that is. 

00:15:14 Speaker 4 

The key. 

00:15:17 Speaker 4 

Challenge is well, the the the several key challenges have to do with vehicle warranty, interconnection and utility. Dr. Baselines and programs, right. So yes, unfortunately it is going to be. 

00:15:30 Speaker 4 

A patchwork, but to me that. 

00:15:32 Speaker 4 

Feels very much like solar in the early 2000s when we started Sun Addison. 

00:15:36 Speaker 4 

In the sense that each utility was scared of connecting solar to the grid. And are you going to mess up my grid by adding solar and? 

00:15:46 Speaker 4 

What is this interconnect? I mean, it took months or years to get an interconnection agreement for a solar installation that was small on a. 

00:15:53 Speaker 4 

On a solar rooftop. 

00:15:55 Speaker 4 

This feels very much like solar in the early 2000s. We're at the, you know, we're at the very beginning part of this industry mean to me if in the reason I joined this company is I feel very strongly that our intersection. 

00:16:06 Speaker 4 

Of decentralizing and decarbonizing grid, increasing electric demand. 

00:16:11 Speaker 4 

And growth of. 

00:16:12 Speaker 4 

These this has to be a part of the solution and the way that utilities think is that is that currently they think that each well, I can't speak for all of them, but as a general rule they think Oh my God, electric vehicles are a pain in my ****, right? Because they're increasing electric demand and I don't have enough transmission capabilities. I don't have the T&DI don't have the infrastructure. 

00:16:34 Speaker 4 

This has kind of caused so much trouble, right? And the Biden administration and tons of states are requiring more electric vehicles, right, you see? 

00:16:45 Speaker 4 

The EV's on the road in the US have gone from 2 million to 20 in 2022 to 8 million in 2025 to probably 26,000,000 in 20-30. But wow, wouldn't it be great if the utilities could work with us collaboratively and realize we can be a part of the solution with the battery storage on wheels? Not. 

00:17:04 Speaker 4 

Part of the problem. 

00:17:06 Speaker 3 

Yeah, it absolutely seems like an opportunity. Can you just talk a little bit about the interconnection process and why that's so difficult? We're going to be digging into this a little bit more in a future episode. So I'd really like to understand. It seems that as a grid responsive asset, the interconnection process should be easier, especially for the types of applications you're seeking. 

00:17:27 Speaker 4 

It's not. It's not easier. I mean, I think utilities are overwhelmed by applications and several utilities in the Northeast. I won't name any names. We'll say that for a 20 kilowatt charger interconnect, it might take anywhere from 6 to 18 months for them to just review our application. 

00:17:48 Speaker 4 

For 20 kilowatts. 

00:17:50 Speaker 4 

So, discouraging to say the least. And these are utilities that we've worked with before. So it's not new. We've worked with dozens and dozens and dozens of utilities across the country, not just in the northeast all over. 

00:18:02 Speaker 4 

The country and you know you think, OK, the first one is going to be a pain in the **** because they don't understand it. We don't understand. We have to do a bunch of work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But. 

00:18:11 Speaker 4 

The 5th, the 10th, and they're still saying it's a 6 to 18 month long process. I'm sure that there are more applications than they have the capacity to. 

00:18:20 Speaker 4 

Review, but it's not a lot of kilowatts that we're talking about, right? And so sometimes we're it depends on the utility and each utility is its own special snowflake. So you know they they sometimes consider a small small capacity or sometimes they can put us in different buckets. But the process is just incredibly long. And I would. 

00:18:40 Speaker 4 

I I think. 

00:18:43 Speaker 4 

There will be much more. 

00:18:45 Speaker 4 

News about that in the near future. 

00:18:49 Speaker 3 

Does that get easier if you're doing non exporting applications like demand charge management or you're not even getting to 0 in your fleet or behind the your applications? 

00:19:02 Speaker 4 

It depends on the utility. I'm not trying to be difficult, but a bit. You you you still need to interconnect and even if you're behind the meter, they still need you to interconnect. So again, you would think that they would think, wow, this is a, this is a a tool that can be super useful to us. But most utilities really haven't gotten. 

00:19:19 Speaker 4 

There yet. 

00:19:20 Speaker 2 

Is it because they're not ready yet? Or is it because they're making a different bet? You think, right? 

00:19:25 Speaker 2 

Is it? 

00:19:26 Speaker 4 

Well, I'm a I'm a bit of a pessimist on this. They haven't figured out how to make money on it. 

00:19:30 Speaker 4 

Right. I mean, let's be honest, utilities are, you know it depends on if you're talking about a T&T utility or you're talking about a generating utility. But you know utilities have been built around an incentive structure such that they build new power plants and they get to replace those power plants or they build a new substation or some sort of new infrastructure and they rate base it. 

00:19:51 Speaker 4 

They haven't figured out how to make money on chargers and on charger platforms and off of electric vehicles. 

00:19:58 Speaker 4 

And so once we solve that problem, which again is a utility by utility problem, they will be more interested. And of course it really depends on you know, need pools very constrained. So they and they don't want more wind and they don't want more solar and they don't have, you know more anything. And so you're going to have to find new resources. 

00:20:18 Speaker 4 

But you would think that a utility. 

00:20:20 Speaker 4 

You know, you could. We've argued this to a number of utilities, like you've got a very constrained substation or a constrained interconnection site. And let's put a couple cars there for the 100 hours a year that you really need more electricity there. That's so much cheaper than building new infrastructure, and they've been. 

00:20:41 Speaker 4 

Completely non interested, so it's really it's about incentive structures. 

00:20:46 Speaker 4 

At the end of the day. 

00:20:48 Speaker 2 

And it's not about volume, though it's incentives. You think there's enough volume to make it worth worth the individual utilities effort right now at this point based on the numbers that you and Jeff have shared already. 

00:21:02 Speaker 3 

Interesting. Yeah, it seems like there should. 

00:21:04 Speaker 3 

Be a pitch here for. 

00:21:06 Speaker 3 

Effectively increasing the capacity factor of T&D infrastructure, if you're charging in off peak times, which is exactly you're you're not only saying charging in off peak times, you're saying discharging in peak times, so this should help the utility in terms of infrastructure. 

00:21:23 Speaker 3 

But maybe when they do the interconnection requests? 

00:21:25 Speaker 3 

They say yes, but what if instead of helping it hurts and it actually EVA's charge? Exactly at the time when we don't want them to? Is there a? Is there a case to be made there that you can prevent that or you can't prevent consumer to behavior and they're going to charge when they want to charge, even if it happens to be at at grid peaks? 

00:21:45 Speaker 4 

Right. I mean. 

00:21:45 Speaker 4 

To a utilities defense, their job is to make sure anytime we want to turn our light on, it turns on right? That's their job, and their job is to make money by doing that. So of course they they have brought up every single possibility, which is again their job about what might happen. But the punchline is like. 

00:22:04 Speaker 4 

Somewhere between 1.5 and $2.4, trillion needs to be invested in the grid. 

00:22:10 Speaker 4 

And we're going to have 600 gigawatts of renewable energy by 2030. 

00:22:14 Speaker 4 

And so there's just no way to pay for all that infrastructure. Right. And everybody's infrastructure is different, which is why they're all their own special snowflakes. So I would just. 

00:22:25 Speaker 4 

I think that a lot of it is education and a lot of it is sort of fear of utilities. We know our space better than you do. We can't use these. Just use these electric vehicles as batteries on wheels. It's a lot of education and then it's I I I frankly think it's a lot of sort of really bad things happening to utilities in the next several years. 

00:22:45 Speaker 4 

Before they decide to use this as a benefit to. 

00:22:51 Speaker 3 

So we talked about the problems. I want to just see if we can take a jump forward in time. And Claire, you mentioned that yeah, having seen the trajectory from solar, this feels like solar 15 years ago in terms of utility readiness for adoption. We talked about the problems, vehicle warranty, interconnection, Dr. Baseline and. 

00:23:11 Speaker 3 

And patchwork of programs, let's jump forward in time. Let's think about that 23rd. 

00:23:16 Speaker 3 

The date. What is the future look like in which we've magically solved some of these problems? 

00:23:23 Speaker 4 

So excellent question and that's fun. And you know, there's going to be a lot of work that has to happen between now and then, but. 

00:23:29 Speaker 4 

Electric vehicles will all be bidirectional. 

00:23:33 Speaker 4 

Right. So they will all be able to charge. 

00:23:35 Speaker 4 

From the grid and discharge to. 

00:23:37 Speaker 4 

Bread, all chargers, wherever you go, will be bidirectional. Now. Most people are really going to want to drive up to a charging station, charge real fast and go away, right. So again, I I'm not Pollyannaish enough to think that this is the sale for everybody, but for those people when their cars are parked, why not make money off the grid? 

00:23:58 Speaker 4 

Right. And at some point, the incentive structures will be so high. 

00:24:02 Speaker 4 

That they're going to decide from 4:00 to 7:00 PM the 20 days of the summer. I'll park it because I don't really need it. Then I'll do my groceries in another time or whatever it is. 

00:24:12 Speaker 4 

You know, right. So I mean use cases are really critical. So every charger will be bidirectional and every OEM will have bidirectional vehicles. 

00:24:22 Speaker 4 

And there will still be utilities that are, you know, futzing around trying to figure out how to make this work, but the most progressive utilities will be using this as an enormous tool, which is a 100% underutilized asset right now. 

00:24:37 Speaker 2 

But people buying an EV today, you know, there's still relatively early movers, right? I mean, I think they, they buy them because they've got great performance, they buy them because they have a good conscience when they buy them or they think that, you know, the internal combustion engines gonna, you know, be gone in a certain number of years, they might as well. 

00:24:53 Speaker 2 

Just make the jump. Now. Depending on what state you're in. 

00:24:54 Speaker 4 

Or there's hardly any O&M costs. It's much easier to, yeah, yeah. A lot of different reasons. 

00:24:58 Speaker 2 

I mean it's we. 

00:24:59 Speaker 2 

Definitely had folks on that went over the cost, total cost of ownership being better, but. 

00:25:05 Speaker 2 

A lot of the calculation you're talking about hasn't really been a reality yet for most, right, so I I. 

00:25:09 Speaker 2 

Still think for. 

00:25:10 

Right. 

00:25:10 Speaker 2 

For many, you know, if you're behind the meter. Yeah, you do some peak shaving and things like that today for a fleet or whatever, you you certainly understand that cause you've got the skills. But if I'm just the average consumer and I'm buying a car, I'm probably not there yet. I mean, I might like to be able to sell it back and things like that, but I don't know that most of the people are making their buy decision other than the corner cases on. 

00:25:30 Speaker 2 

Making revenue from their battery quite yet that safe. 

00:25:32 Speaker 4 

So again, I think I think that's true, but there are different use cases. So I my guess, Chris, is you're talking about a regular residential consumer and that's probably true yes. Though more and more residential consumers still. 

00:25:45 Speaker 4 

Early adopters, but they want instead of having to buy a diesel generator, they would love their electric vehicle to be able to power their house in the event of a grid outage, right? So that's going to happen more and more. And and Ford 150 did a beautiful job of trying to prove that business case right. 

00:26:02 Speaker 4 

Which is a very different use case than discharging to the grid. 

00:26:06 Speaker 4 

That that use cases that we're focused on right now are fleets and it's all about money for fleets, right? Depends, let's there's so many different types of fleets, but you know the. 

00:26:16 Speaker 4 

Fleets have a bunch of vehicles that are parked all the time. Why not make money? 

00:26:21 Speaker 4 

When they're not. 

00:26:22 Speaker 4 

Being used and school buses, right? So yes, of course it's early, but it across those different sectors, there's people that are going to be using. 

00:26:32 Speaker 4 

This and going to make money from that. 

00:26:32 Speaker 2 

That's. Yeah, I mean, that's where I see, right. I see it mostly for peak shaving at this point, right? That's kind of what what I what I see so. 

00:26:40 Speaker 2 

But yeah, that makes sense. That's consistent with where I've. 

00:26:42 Speaker 2 

Seen Jeff, do you want to go? 

00:26:46 Speaker 3 

Yeah, Claire, I think this is really exciting. We're going deep in a few areas on on V2G challenges opportunities. I guess given your background and career trajectory, why is it B2G that's the focus currently? And how does your past experience inform? 

00:27:06 Speaker 3 

How you're approaching these problems? 

00:27:08 Speaker 4 

Yeah. So I do not have a background in mobility. I've been in the the climate tech energy. 

00:27:13 Speaker 4 

Tech space since the late 90s and worked on wind at Enron and I was the first renewables originator at Constellation in Baltimore, which is where I live now, and founded Sun. 

00:27:25 Speaker 4 

Edison and solar. 

00:27:27 Speaker 4 

I've done a lot of energy efficiency and energy efficiency financing, a lot of solar founded Sun Rock. 

00:27:33 Speaker 4 

Distributed generation recent. 

00:27:35 Speaker 4 

Currently but but so mobility is new to me, but it's very much a part of the climate tech solution. And so, you know, while it's frustrating to work with utilities, they are the people that get us our power, right. And so I I really do feel like I've, you know, I was very early to solar. 

00:27:57 Speaker 4 

And you know, there's, you know, we could on a couple handfuls. We can think of the people who have been involved in solar and and and commercializing school or at scale for as long as I have. And that and, you know, we were early and people at first thought. 

00:28:11 Speaker 4 

Wait a minute, with a power purchase agreement, you're going to put 3000 holes in my roof. I'm not even going to even own the solar panels on that roof. And then I'm just going to buy electricity from my roof. That doesn't make any sense, right? So, I mean, the idea of a power purchase agreement is something all of us understand right now. But when we started sent Edison in 2003, nobody understood. And it was. 

00:28:30 Speaker 4 

A ridiculous concept. 

00:28:31 Speaker 4 

Right. So this V to G right now feels very much to me, like an early play. 

00:28:38 Speaker 4 

So so to both of your points. It's early and there's a lot of challenges, but that's what. 

00:28:43 Speaker 4 

I like. 

00:28:44 Speaker 4 

You know, there's there's a lot of challenges and a lot of things that need to be solved right and it it's not going to be easy, but it's. 

00:28:49 Speaker 4 

But they're both electric vehicles are here to stay, right? There are state mandates. They're federal mandates, they're, you know, and so. And. And and frankly, they're completely underutilized asset right now. Right. A million percent completely underutilized. So someone's going to have to figure out how to solve that problem. Right. This this is the future, right. 

00:29:09 Speaker 4 

You've got so much infrastructure that needs to be built and change. 

00:29:15 Speaker 4 

You've got increasing electric demand, right? So people say that like electricity demand is is going to increase 7017% from 2021 to 2030, up to 39% from 2021 to 2035. I mean, there's we've got a huge problem, right? And a very old. 

00:29:35 Speaker 4 

Run down grid. Depending on where you are in the country, right? 

00:29:40 Speaker 4 

You know, Catherine Blunt book California Burning is is is a great example of that. We've got a very aging infrastructure. So something's gonna have to solve this problem and electric vehicles are going to be the solution. How exactly it works out, you know, 10 years from now or while we're laughing and you know on to our next thing that nobody's even thought of yet, it will have to be electric vehicles. 

00:30:01 Speaker 4 

In some way shape or form, so that's why I'm here. 

00:30:04 Speaker 3 

And this is this is what you do, right? You come into an industry early when it when nobody else can see it and figure out how to transform it into. 

00:30:11 Speaker 3 

Something that's that's. 

00:30:12 

Yes. Yeah, thank you. 

00:30:14 Speaker 4 

That's the idea. 

00:30:15 Speaker 2 

I really appreciate. Yeah. You bring up Catherine Blunt. She's been a guest on the show. A friend of the show. So we, we love having her insight into what's happening in the industry. You know, you talk about the grid in the infrastructure, perhaps in some regions, being not ready for all this. 

00:30:19 

Oh good. 

00:30:33 Speaker 2 

And it's interesting when I talk to utility players and they've had plenty on the show that say they'll get there just in time and and those are in the Northeast, they're in the US and you know, they're all over the place in, in what, what the feedback has been. This is an evolution, right, that that all those vehicles don't come tomorrow. They come over time and they're going to be building this as we go. That's the. 

00:30:52 Speaker 2 

That's the the the the reality of a lot of planners I've talked to, and I think even in this series, when you listen to the first episode of two, we have some feedback that that they'll get there. Then we've had other companies come on that have the concept of, you know, micro grids or putting large battery storage where you charge your fleet or things like that to help out. To me what you talk about. 

00:31:12 Speaker 2 

Comes down to the software managing. Since we are talking about fleets, it's generally predictable. 

00:31:17 Speaker 2 

Now granted, if I'm like an Amazon or delivery fleet, my core competence is delivering my product for my company. It's it's not selling power in and out. So the question is gonna be, does the software allow me to manage and get the return on investment out of the utilization I need, right, that that's what I see the problem statement to be. 

00:31:32 Speaker 4 

That's right. 

00:31:35 Speaker 2 

Am I missing something there of where we? 

00:31:36 Speaker 2 

Are then at this. 

00:31:37 Speaker 4 

No, I mean, fermana energy is a software company, right? So we're taking using a bunch of data scientists and software engineers to put together duty cycle, which is a really important part of it. Demand response rates, utility information, telemetry, all of those things to optimize. 

00:31:55 Speaker 4 

For best use cases for an electric vehicle. So yeah, it's it's 100% software enabled. Yep. 

00:32:01 Speaker 2 

And are there enough Internet of Things or sensors along the way where you get is the current infrastructure giving you the data to be the best that you can be from all the tools you have, or are there some piece that? 

00:32:12 Speaker 4 

I mean, we can get down to two-minute interval data, so there's no, I mean that there's there's no lack of data, right? Again to me it goes back to. 

00:32:21 Speaker 4 

Incentive structures that goes back to how people make money. 

00:32:25 Speaker 2 

Or it's carrot or stick. So incentive would be the carrot or you'd do like California or something. Say, hey, trucks are gonna be electric or we're gonna mandate these things. Right. So we're seeing that that side as well. 

00:32:34 Speaker 4 

Right. But even the California? 

00:32:37 Speaker 4 

For sure. 

00:32:39 Speaker 4 

But I think there's a lot of uncertainty and I think it depends on the state and. 

00:32:42 Speaker 4 

How much power? 

00:32:43 Speaker 4 

The Public Service Commission or the Public Utility Commission, whatever it's called, has and how much they understand, right? So you know, and and so as an example empowerment. 

00:32:55 Speaker 4 

Maryland, I was looking at my utility bill versus my colleagues utility bill. We get charged three times more in Maryland for our empower Maryland bill than utility payers pay in Massachusetts for mass save. 

00:33:12 Speaker 4 

And Maryland is still just doing smart thermostats. 

00:33:16 Speaker 4 

OK. Why is that because of Public Service Commission? 

00:33:20 Speaker 4 

Isn't ready for all this, and because our grid is not nearly as constrained as three pools, grid is right, so the utilities aren't engaged and don't really need this the way that so it's it's all incentive structure. When it goes back to it and it's going to take a lot of people's policy time, regulatory affairs time. And again as I said, I think it's going to take. 

00:33:40 Speaker 4 

Some really huge catastrophes. 

00:33:42 Speaker 4 

Before you know and and utility bankruptcies before utilities do this coming in and and and being being open to it, anything new for utility is really hard because their job is to make sure the lights are on any time you turn that light on. I've I've spent years working in utilities and that's it's hard. New things are scary. 

00:34:02 Speaker 4 

Right, especially when you're regulated to do something as complicated as making sure my heat turns on whenever I want it. 

00:34:12 Speaker 3 

Claire, I'm thinking of a different question, which is how we make sure that this transition to renewable and distributed energy is an equitable transition, and particularly around EVA's. There's a lot of challenges where how do we? 

00:34:20 Speaker 4 

Great question. 

00:34:25 Speaker 3 

Keep this just from being toys for rich people. 

00:34:29 Speaker 4 

Such a good question. Such a good well, so a number of things. So yes, it is mostly toys for rich people right now. And the tax, you know, tax benefits, 7500 bucks per, you know, all of that. 

00:34:40 Speaker 4 

That is incredibly inequitable. But electric vehicles are becoming cheaper, right? So I have a Prius prime, which cost me $19,000, which is only a hybrid vehicle, but it's becoming more cost effective. And there's going to be lots of regulatory fixes, right? So I mean, you know, the federal government has the J40. 

00:35:00 Speaker 4 

And is massively subsidizing providing. 

00:35:05 Speaker 4 

Providing all of this infrastructure and all of these tools for lower income communities we're working with and in my enterprise community partners in the Mid-Atlantic to try to create charging hubs. So you know they know the credit scores of all the people who live in their housing projects. 

00:35:25 Speaker 4 

And you know, we can provide charging hubs for all of those, Lyft and Uber drivers who live in those locations, and they can charge their vehicle at night. 

00:35:36 Speaker 4 

And discharge their vehicle and make money off of it during the day. There's a lot of people working on these solutions right now, but yes, it's a critical part. And Jeff, I we could have a much longer conversation about this. 

00:35:48 Speaker 4 

But there's there's so much that needs to happen. 

00:35:50 Speaker 2 

In in the past, I think we had a movie view on the program as well and with them. And so once again, they're helping get fleets and helping get the cost percentage. So that you understand the cost of driving and Evie. So that the socioeconomics, Don. 

00:35:53 Speaker 4 

Oh, fun. 

00:36:04 Speaker 2 

Hurt people. I mean that that was one of the points when we talked to David over there and he went through all that modeling. So I think they're they're pockets of really interesting things happening, right? What? What I'm fearful of and those listening to series is it's so early that the industry hasn't consolidated and get into a unified approach. Right. So where as you come out and say, hey, we got this great fleet strategy and there's, you know, fifty other entrepreneurs. 

00:36:27 Speaker 2 

Out there that also see great fleet strategies, we have an acquiesced around a single strategy yet and there's no one in energy, right. I think energy transition is there's never a single silver bullet. 

00:36:38 Speaker 2 

But for standards and common commonality, it seems we're going to need to kind of. 

00:36:43 Speaker 2 

Come to some common ground for a lot of these things in terms of software error, in terms of interoperability, in terms of, you know, connecting up to the grid, that seems to still be far away from where I sit. 

00:36:54 Speaker 4 

I think that's right. I mean, there's still people arguing about Chatham versus CS, right? It's clear to me it's the beta versus, you know, VHS argument. Chademo technically might be a better tool, but everyone's moving to CS, so you know it's. 

00:37:10 Speaker 4 

Yeah, Tesla's not playing nice in the sandbox at all, right? If you have a, you have. 

00:37:15 Speaker 4 

A Tesla power. 

00:37:16 Speaker 4 

Wall, you want to you know, so yes, there's a there's a lot of consolidation that needs to happen, but it will, right? Just like it did in solar. It's going to have to happen because there's mandates that are being required. Yeah. 

00:37:29 Speaker 2 

And then just kind of before we kind of try to bring this all together, you know dealing with corporates are, are there new job titles or people that you're dealing with in, in the large enterprises that are managing the fleet or is this just the operations guys still that's inheriting this or are there folks coming out of school like moving into the? 

00:37:47 Speaker 2 

Jobs to help a large company manage their fleets in electric, we've already had for a long time, but. 

00:37:50 Speaker 4 

Yeah. No, that's a great question. 

00:37:53 Speaker 4 

Yeah. So it depends on who you're talking about, but there are ESG roles everywhere, right? And there's people who are sort of fleet managers, right? And driving the electrification of transportation, there's fleet electrification people, there's sustainability. 

00:38:13 Speaker 4 

People now. 

00:38:15 Speaker 4 

That those titles didn't exist five years ago, right? So for sure, corporates everywhere, particularly if they're involved in fleets in any way, are all talking to us at this point, which is great, right? Or the charge points of the world are egos of the world. They understand that this. 

00:38:31 Speaker 4 

Is the. 

00:38:32 Speaker 4 

Future and all of them have different customer bases and they're all trying to listen their customers and make sure that. 

00:38:38 Speaker 4 

Customers have a great customer experience, right? That's their jobs. So the customer experience is really critical. 

00:38:46 Speaker 3 

That's fantastic, Claire. We've covered a tremendous amount of ground in this conversation. So as we wrap up here, I'm thinking about some of our younger listeners, folks that are in in school grad school or looking to move in their careers. Given your trajectory and having seen so many industry transformations and more ongoing. 

00:39:06 Speaker 3 

What advice do you have to some of those folks who are in earlier stages of their careers? 

00:39:11 Speaker 4 

Yeah. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. I've spent a huge part of my career trying to support other particularly young women because I used to be the only woman in the room and. 

00:39:22 Speaker 4 

It's exhausting, and and it's it's really hard. So it's a delight to see the next generation. 

00:39:30 Speaker 4 

Have more diversity, so IA couple suggestions is build and gather and refine the tools in your toolbox so you can manage through any situation. When it rises, everyone needs to have a ton of financing skills he or she who manages the books, manages the company so it's incumbent upon. 

00:39:50 Speaker 4 

Everyone that's involved in this space to really understand financial models. 

00:39:56 Speaker 4 

I think developing and nurturing a network of professional and personal friends whom you respect to give you honest feedback is really quick. Really important. I think setting boundaries and sticking to them is really important. You know, whatever you're willing to put up with is exactly what you'll have. 

00:40:12 Speaker 4 

I think fostering an equal playing field is really important. You know, creating an atmosphere of trust and connections through encouragement. 

00:40:20 Speaker 4 

It's, you know, I've I've spent my entire career with those things in mind. I sometimes get into trouble because I'm a super honest person and I'm super willing to support other people, and I spend a lot of time supporting younger people. 

00:40:36 Speaker 4 

Because I think that is the future of climate tech is we build this community. 

00:40:42 Speaker 4 

And sometimes investors and other entrepreneurs think that's not a good use of time. And I just a million percent disagree and I will continue to do that. So I you know, I want to support everyone as they're trying to build up their their communities and their careers and their solutions to all of these climate change problems that we have. So I I mean, I really think. 

00:41:02 Speaker 4 

You know, defining and refining the tools in your tools box, putting together your network and setting boundaries is really, really important. 

00:41:13 Speaker 2 

As we wrap up the show. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Claire. It's been an amazing conversation. I am looking forward to seeing universal bidirectional charging taking place. Thank you for being our guest and for our audience. We hope you've enjoyed this show. As always, the EV miniseries is something designed to give you insight into the industry and we want you to know all things Evie about in this series. 

00:41:34 Speaker 2 

Look forward to talking to you again and the next episode. Bye bye.