Picture this: a young Michael Walker hustling shoes online before eBay became the powerhouse it is today. Now he's sitting with me, sharing the journey to becoming an internet marketing maestro and the CEO of Rubicon. Our chat's not just about the big bucks in affiliate marketing versus AdSense—it's a thrilling ride through personal triumphs, the streets of Philly, and the power of keeping your word. Michael's laugh is infectious as we swap stories from Thai massages to the roar of the Eagles' stadium, blending the hard numbers with hard-earned wisdom.
We get real about the moments that shape us—the kind that make you take a hard look at your backup plan or decide to drop everything to chase a dream. When I talk about facing my parents with my entrepreneurial leap, you can bet Michael's got his own tale of risk and reward. It's about the hustle, yes, but it's also about family, about the unwritten PhD in street smarts we earned in Philly, and finding that business intuition that's gold in our industry. This is where street meets strategy, and we're letting you in on every gritty detail.
And because we're not just about looking back, we're cracking open the future—pouring out insights on scaling businesses, networking like a boss, and staying sharp in a game that never slows down. Raise a glass with us in Medellin as we toast to the ambition and collaboration that fuels the grand American dream. We celebrate resilience and the relentless pursuit of growth, all while making memories that stick longer than any Super Bowl loss. Michael Walker's journey is a testament to the hustle, and together, we're saying, "Let's freaking go.
Picture this: a young Michael Walker hustling shoes online before eBay became the powerhouse it is today. Now he's sitting with me, sharing the journey to becoming an internet marketing maestro and the CEO of Rubicon. Our chat's not just about the big bucks in affiliate marketing versus AdSense—it's a thrilling ride through personal triumphs, the streets of Philly, and the power of keeping your word. Michael's laugh is infectious as we swap stories from Thai massages to the roar of the Eagles' stadium, blending the hard numbers with hard-earned wisdom.
We get real about the moments that shape us—the kind that make you take a hard look at your backup plan or decide to drop everything to chase a dream. When I talk about facing my parents with my entrepreneurial leap, you can bet Michael's got his own tale of risk and reward. It's about the hustle, yes, but it's also about family, about the unwritten PhD in street smarts we earned in Philly, and finding that business intuition that's gold in our industry. This is where street meets strategy, and we're letting you in on every gritty detail.
And because we're not just about looking back, we're cracking open the future—pouring out insights on scaling businesses, networking like a boss, and staying sharp in a game that never slows down. Raise a glass with us in Medellin as we toast to the ambition and collaboration that fuels the grand American dream. We celebrate resilience and the relentless pursuit of growth, all while making memories that stick longer than any Super Bowl loss. Michael Walker's journey is a testament to the hustle, and together, we're saying, "Let's freaking go.
You can make more money from affiliate marketing than AdSense. I'm like what is that? Let me research that. And honestly it's funny. One of the sponsors of the show shout out to Ringba. I linked up with Harrison's company back in the day.
Speaker 2:We just shot a fucking banger right now. I can't wait till you hear this shit. It's like next level. No one's talking about this. Shout out to our sponsors, because without them, this shit wouldn't be possible. Shout out to Ringba. Shout out to Adam Young the paper call revolution. There's big, big money in paper call. Whether you're someone who's a novice looking to get into it, whether you're someone who's already doing it, putting up big numbers, let to get into it. Whether you're someone's already doing it putting up big numbers, let's fucking do this. Guys, Get the fucking book on Amazon. We're going to drop a link here. Take your shit to the next level. Let's fucking go. Yo, check it out.
Speaker 2:We're back, baby. We're in Medellin Again. This is round two and we're starting this shit off the way we started. Last time we got some Aguadillenta here. Shit off the way we sort of. Last time we got some Aguardiente here. This time I got my man, Michael Walker. He is the CEO and co-founder of Rubicon. This guy puts up some big, fucking numbers. This episode is going to be a fucking banger. So bring out your fucking notepads. Take some notes, because we're going to get deeper here.
Speaker 1:man Great to have you on the show.
Speaker 2:By the way, we're doing some Aguardiente here. This is what you do when you're in Colombia. If you ain't been there, get fucking ready, let's go, baby, alright, man. So let's start off. Listen, we've known each other. We've known each other for a couple years, man, we met at Carlos Corona's event, I believe. Right, yeah, that. Or Bangkok, no, I think it was Carlos' event. And then I saw you in Bangkok. It was kind of like we're ready. We were at the grand society thing.
Speaker 1:Right, it was some grand secret society yeah, and you had that table with the slide, remember like it was up the stairs and you go down the slide to the bar. Yeah, I forgot about that bro we.
Speaker 2:Did you get your? Did you get a massage in the bathroom? No, I heard let me explain. It sounds like we're doing some bullshit. This is what happened happened. You were in Bangkok. You go take a, you go pee, and then these guys put a towel on your neck that worked there and they start massaging you. It's part of like I don't even know why they do that shit honestly, but we weren't like trying to do illegal shit or bad shit, but that's what happened.
Speaker 1:Did you?
Speaker 2:get one or no? No, I didn't.
Speaker 1:I was like coercing people. He's like go to the bathroom, go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2:I'm like bro the bathroom's got a cool experience. You guys got to go and half the motherfuckers went, half didn't go.
Speaker 2:Yeah so anyway, all good. So we were in Bangkok. We had a great time there, man, and we would hang out. So when I met you with Carlos, you were an Eagles fan right, you are an Eagles fan. I'm an Eagles fan, philadelphia Eagles right, and the Eagles are having a good season and we're like yo, if the Eagles make it to the NFC Championship, we're going to go. We had a few drinks with us, right? We talked about it in Bangkok. We talked about it another time.
Speaker 1:And, bro, they made it, which was crazy. So, yeah, I'm gonna go make it happen. I literally flew in that morning, went to the game with you, you know, I had a couple drinks and then flew out that night I'm like just keeping my word.
Speaker 2:The fact is like, because you know, we, we said, we're gonna do it and we fucking did it man you know, and uh, made promises kept, man, that's the kind of thing, so let's talk about that. How has that served you in this business, man? You know, honoring your word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, honestly, I feel like in this business it's not to say it's everything right, Like once you don't honor your word, yeah, then it spreads and then it's just like you know, like I feel like in my I guess I've always honored my word People know that and they'll say, hey, work with Michael, he's a good guy, he's going to do what he says he does, he's not going to burn you Stuff like that. And in this industry, so many successful people, the second you burn anyone, everyone talks and like you know you're like, yeah, your, your network and all that is just shrunken significantly. Like why would you ever want to mess that up? I feel like in this space, just from who you know, like you're gonna, you're gonna meet people or millionaires of eight figures, nine figures, maybe a couple billionaires are going to be billionaires. So it's like you know, I don't want anyone ever saying, oh, yeah, don't work with Michael, he's bad, I need something down the future. Or you know a business relationship, yeah, yeah, and I feel like no one can say that.
Speaker 2:But everyone that speaks about you says the greatest things, man, and it's also, it's a testament. And again, that little example of that Eagles game. You know, listen, I was like who knows he comes. He might not come, and but I had a feeling you come because you know eagles fans, we've been through a lot of shit, right. So so we came. We had a fucking great time, man. You know, it was a fantastic time. We won the game, we crushed their ass yeah, no, no, 49ers.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, it was, it was a great time and, yeah, I was like the first time we really just hung out and like, yeah, just bonded from there and you know, like I've seen you in probably 10 cities since then. All, all over the world, right, all over the world it's crazy.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about before that, right, I mean you were, you, you're, you're you're. I mean you're young compared to your early 30s, right? You've been actually doing this internet marketing, internet sales stuff for half your life, right, and you started as was it a teenager.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, just online. I started selling on eBay when I was 14. Affiliate marketing started at 16. And yeah, so I've really just been selling things on the internet and making landing pages, and all that for over half my life now.
Speaker 2:It's kind of crazy to say what spurred you to do that. Where, as a teenager, what makes you say, hey, I'm going to fucking, you know, start selling shoes online or get into the markets? Most seniors aren't thinking about that shit. So what made you do that?
Speaker 1:I mean, everyone in my family is a hustler in a way and just like I don't know my grandparents and trickles down but yeah, I would say for me just getting in those selling shoes online. Honestly, I remember I went to New York I've told the story. But I went to New York, went to Canal Street and just saw like all the stuff there, the fake items, all that. I was like, wow, this is insane. And then I started like, honestly, it started with me like how are they getting this stuff? Let me go online and figure out how I can get this. How are they getting this stuff? Let me go online and figure out how I can get this. And then I like at the same time, honestly was, uh, I had a book and I was like how to? How to make ebay listings? And it was just like, yeah, I took those two components and just made listings.
Speaker 1:And I was like 14 years old, I literally off a website, ec21, I guess it's equivalent to alibaba. Now I would just order bulk shoes from China, have them shipped to my house, sell them on eBay and would have them boxed up and, like my mom and I partnered with my neighbor back then where his dad would drive us to the post office to ship them out. He wasn't even old enough to drive and yeah, that's like the origin story, I think. Once I got a taste of that, I was like wait, you can make money over a computer, and it's like it didn't matter. I was like I don't know some 14-year-old black kid I could be Michael Walker, a serious businessman, it didn't matter. I was like this internet shit is amazing. It's what I want to do.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about something interesting, because I think that what I found when we first started talking, right, we were, we, we we had the Eagles game. I don't know when some of this came up you took, you mentioned your grandparents and you, you, you saw a business as rent ran as a young kid. Right, that had a big impact on you and you know, for me, my, what got me really into like making money. My aunt bought me shares of Merck stock, seven shares, like worth nothing. But I remember when I was in eighth grade, shit, well, at one point I made seven bucks. I mean, like that got me like, wow, how the fuck do I make more man? So what was what did you learn from watching your grandparents or the family business, I'm sure, like that really. Was that where you got that initial thirst, or what do you think it was?
Speaker 1:I would say so.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's like, I feel like I don't even give the significance it should, honestly, because it was just like I was born into it, right, it's just like in my blood in a way, because that's all I ever saw.
Speaker 1:But like, yeah, my grandparents are hustlers. They had their go up in the summer every single day and work with my, my grandparents and just see how they're doing things and all that and like, yeah, just like how to manage people, how to treat something like it's yours. You know, when something is your business, it's like it starts and ends with you. You know like if it's not your business, that problem, whatever, someone will figure it out, but it's like if it's yours, like the problem is going to keep being there unless you figure it out or someone else in your organization figures out. Um, and then, yeah, like, honestly, saw like you can do good and help other people come up and prosper and all that and and still make money. So, yeah, I would say like all my business acumen and all that definitely came from them, and hard work too.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I find it fascinating because a lot of us I didn't get into this industry till I was like your age man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's crazy, I wish.
Speaker 2:I got into this, like when you did, because I'd be so fucking sorry. So anyone listening right now, if you're, I mean even my daughter. My daughter is 12 years old and she's got like a good amount of she's got some social media stuff going on and she's actually got a good follow. She's doing some soccer and at first I thought it was like a waste of time, but now I'm encouraging her to do it right.
Speaker 1:And I think that that encourage her to do it and, um, just start young, right, you're gonna have a huge advantage. Whatever their passion is, like, just guide them to that. Um, maybe it's not making ads, maybe it's whatever creating videos or or soccer, or whatever it might be. You know, like, if it's singing, I would just say just start young and and just go for it is like, to me it makes a big difference because, uh, I I was saying in another interview, I feel like that's one of my big advantages just the experience. You know, like I don't know if I'm the smartest, the hardest working all that, but I've seen a lot, so that helps you to navigate and you know different situations and I think that what you said you've seen that experience, seeing what your grandparents did you you starting as a teenager in this business.
Speaker 2:So you started, you were selling shoes, right, and let's talk about the progression. What happened after that?
Speaker 1:yeah, I would say another story. Honestly, I started like just really researching and googling affiliate marketing. So I basically see people, so I started shoes and then I started. I learned web design as well, very young. That's another story. My mom, when I was 14, signed me up some web design class and like that, did you want to do it at the time or you thought it was no, I thought it was horrible.
Speaker 1:And honestly it's funny because like it was in, like in Philly, it was like the Mount Airy Community Learning Center. I get there the first Bro. You just made me think about every line.
Speaker 2:You know that, man, there you go. Okay, that was an old school place. People would take their like their girlfriends, or they'd bang them over there and shit man. It was like the Poconos man, A little different, but hey, Sorry thank you.
Speaker 1:But no, so, like it was literally I went to the class it was like some nighttime class and it was mom. I'm like what is this? Like it's all old people in this class. And then I started like listening with the guy who was teaching and all that. I'm like, oh, this is pretty cool. It was like it was like the guy who made like the first like WWF, wwe website. He made the first Nickelodeon website. Um, and just yeah, learn web design from there. And I started making.
Speaker 1:I just put AdSense, right, google AdSense back in the day, just putting that on these pages. I would just make and try to SEO. And then from there people were like, no, like I just read forums. I was like you can make more money from affiliate marketing than AdSense. I'm like, what is that? Let me research that. And honestly, it's funny.
Speaker 1:One of the sponsors of the show shout out to Ringbook of the sponsors of the show shout out the ring book. Yeah, I linked up with um harrison's company back in the day and they were a network and just started um, yeah, they paid everyone weekly. So, like you know for me to say at that time I may be like 16 years old, something like that. So we would like spend some money on ads or whatever and then get paid weekly was like a game changer. So that was really like how I got to the affiliate side and then from there, I mean I wasn't making crazy money, anything like that, but when you're a kid you know it's like, hey, I have enough money to do what I want right, like buy some clothes, blah blah but I wasn't like go wherever you wanted yeah, freedom yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:I mean like, look, if I wanted like order a cheesesteak or some pizza right now, I'd pay like tight money versus the normal 16-year-old. But it wasn't like hey, I'm balling out, I'm buying jewelry, I'm going away or whatever like that. And then like yeah, I just kept with it because I always saw the potential. And then in college, my senior year, honestly it really hit big and I just dropped out and just went all in from there.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about how did your parents take that when you said you dropped out. That couldn't have been a great conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I would say it wasn't. But my mom also, like she got it a little bit, she got it and she has that in her too, like the entrepreneurial spirit and like I don't know. All right, I just told my mom like look, there's some money you know making. Now it's like it's a lot you sort of like the numbers.
Speaker 2:You showed your accounts and what you told her I was like, look, it's a lot.
Speaker 1:And like, even if it were you proud though doing that, like yeah, but yeah, but my mom is still kind of nervous, you don't know what she's going to say. But yeah, I was like hey, this is the situation, blah, blah, blah. And I think the thing that I explained was look, if it doesn't work, I can always go back. The credits don't expire for 10 years, something like that. And um, yeah, just took off and just just kept going with it. Honestly, you guys ever talk about that?
Speaker 2:moment, like you know where you're at now, like hey, remember that time.
Speaker 1:No, but like, actually I'm like that you say that I should, you should I should go back to and say that, yeah, like, because I was, yeah, I was like yeah, listen.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I'm a big believer in that. I might. I had my father passed away a couple weeks ago, man, and I'm like. I took my mom to Columbia. We're in Columbia right now. We had a great time. She's 70 years old. I'm trying to get her Moved down to Florida with me and you know we have a good lifestyle. Right, we get to go places. I'm going to start Bringing her to the Fucking conference with me, man, I know more and Right, right, like I like talking about these moments, because this is like, this is a shit, that you don't think about it when you're doing it.
Speaker 1:No, for sure.
Speaker 2:These are the little moments that get you to that point, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, no. And I was like other moments I was messing. I'm like, hey, you remember when this happened. It's like you don't think about it and like I was like even like my upbringing, like entrepreneurial and all that stuff I said before, like I think I really like took that for granted and thought it was normalized when I was young. And as I got older, I'm like, wait, like I don't think other people grew up like and I mean, yeah, I, I appreciate, I appreciate my family, you know, like they just have given me and never asked for anything.
Speaker 2:So I love it, man. That's. That's great to hear. So you grew up in philly, right? I said I grew up in northern. There's kind of similar culture there, right, and we talk about Eagles, very passionate fucking fans, very passionate people. Man, how do you feel that that affected you in terms of business acumen, man? I feel like it gives you a level of street smarts. When you're in business. You got to know how to read people.
Speaker 1:Who's bullshitting, whatever people, who's bullshitting, whatever, and I feel like you know, let's talk about that. Yeah, I mean I like I don't know. I think everyone in in philly like arrogantly, like I don't know things, like, yeah, if you're from philly, you have the ultimate street smart, like you have a master's, you have a phd, in the street smarts, you know. So again, business, even coming down here to columbia, you guys, this is I'm like okay, thanks for that. But you know, like I like I I mean that's the situation, um, but like, yeah, just in business, I mean it's invaluable because, um, I don't know, I feel like it gives you like a level of intuition like who to work with, who not to what's good, bad characters when you've seen, and bad characters and things like that, you can better identify them in business, like, all right, this guy has some traits that don't look too good. Let me not work with him and I don't know, it just shows you how to move. I don't know specific situations, but yeah, it just shows you how to move differently.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it does has that intuition ever helped you from a bad deal, like it just shows you how to move differently? I'm sure it does so it has. Has that intuition ever helped you from like a bad deal or some like save you money from like getting from getting fucked by somebody? Or maybe just it's just you just had like a bullshit detector and you prevented yourself.
Speaker 1:Part of it, but I would think also just experience like those two things combined, being in the space for a while, yeah, like, hey, this person is, they're weakly, you know. Um, it's like okay, they're a week late on their payments, something like that. And it's like assessing that, like who are they? Blah, blah, blah. Should we cut traffic immediately? Or like no, they're good for it. Like I feel like, yeah, that aspect is a lot. And there's certain people in this space who are like hey, you know, I don't have the money this week, but I'll have it next week. Just work with me here. And I'm like, I feel, like I don't know, just feel, or look at them and see like this person is legitimate. They mean it. Blah, blah, blah. I'm getting that Versus other people. It's like you didn't get the money. They probably didn't communicate with you. Um, it's like, all right, let me get on their ass right now so, yeah, so cool I mean this is.
Speaker 2:I think that you make me think of the book. I don't know if you ever met malcolm gladwell. He's got a book called uh outliers he talks about to be really successful something you need I think it's 10 000 hours of practice at it. So I think the fact that you started when you're in your in your early teens, that gives you such a leg up right and it's yeah incredible and that's all I.
Speaker 1:I did because, like, honestly, I I enjoy it, like I don't think it was like work and all that. So it's like it's very easy to get 10 000 hours. It's like all right, the eight hours you're gonna work and then like a couple more hours because, like just off of, I enjoy it and um, yeah, I definitely agree with that. Like the 10 000 hours you can kind of master something. But like with this space, like maybe you can master at a high level affiliate marketing, whatever, but like there's always more which I enjoy. Like I don't have 10 000 hours on google. You know I don't have 10,000 hours on Google. You know I don't have 10,000 hours on I don't know some specific vertical and all that, and like there's, that's what I enjoy about this space. There's always a next level, more to learn and probably getting to something else. There's always people don't get bigger and better, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And there's always these different platforms that come out.
Speaker 1:You got a test, right, yeah, yeah, so ring, but you can 10 000 hours in there alone, right, to really get it down. I mean not to say it's a very easy to use platform and all that, but like, yeah, I think you can, there's a level of intricacies and tweaks that can help you really maximize a campaign, and so forth.
Speaker 1:Right exactly um, there's the base level out of it. And then there's like, if you really know, and like me and john, like I don't know, we I always say like, as far as tech guys who understand affiliate, like I always say we have an advantage because, um, yeah, we really know like those nuances evolve, ring, but other systems are like. I guess I didn't really talk about this as much, but when I went to college, like my, my degree and background I was going for was IST, information science and technology, which is kind of like a more broader computer science. So I have a tech background too and just applying that to affiliate marketing is always an advantage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what you make me think if there was a prototypical model of an affiliate marketer or someone, you hit a lot of the aspects. You had the business experience. You grew up in there with the three smarts. You got that IT kind of knowledge, that creativeness. And I think, the other thing, you're an adventurer too. Too right the fact that we fucking were in bangkok. That was a long flight. Now we're in medellin. Right, we've been in miami, we've been all over. Because when you're an adventurer, you're willing to split test every fucking thing, right. You're not scared to split test. You're like, hey, if I'm wrong, whatever the fuck, right. So yeah, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1:and honestly, I think that part is a bigger part to the success of it all than, like nowadays, specifically than knowing tech or, I don't know, having an entrepreneurial background, family. I think that part matters a bit, that the you know being entrepreneur, but it's like, yeah, an adventurer willing to try new things, the unknown, all that, I think is just um so important. Because I was looking at guys in this day and age like none of these guys who really blow it up no tech, honestly, and they can still put up ridiculous numbers, you know, and it's like that's just so interesting to me and it's like you don't have to have a technical background, all of that. Like I know guys who, like Shelter Carter, spooky Carter, couldn't even place a pixel but could run 200K in a day, you know. It's like that that was. That was mind-blowing to me, like that's what I love about the space too.
Speaker 1:You meet someone like that and it's like holy shit, the way I thought about the space and what you did succeed, succeed is now shifted and you literally can make money just from being an adventure and willing to try stuff and just making, being creative.
Speaker 2:And I think birds saying that birds of a feather flock together is a big thing right, yeah, we talk about Spooky. That guy's an adventurer too. I was just in Dominican Republic with him a month ago. Great event, shout out to Spooky Carter. Also, we're here in Columbia right now. We're here with Sal and Samar. Right, we got Ju platt here. We got ron hard here, man, we got. We got some fucking killers here, man, I mean. So the point is like all these guys are adventurers too. We've all been around the world together and and, and you know, we're more likely to listen. We're gonna fuck some things up, we're gonna fail at some shit, but we'll learn from that and then we're gonna hit the next thing. That fucking works right, right, yeah no, like exactly.
Speaker 1:And and then what you said too, it's like also like I always appreciate, like who you can meet in this space and it's like you can meet some genuine friends who, like it's tough right, like we're all from and all that, like yeah, we have our homies from when we grew up with, but like they probably don't have the mindset you have and like I want to go above and all that, it gets tough.
Speaker 1:But like here I feel like I say, all right, these people are cool, but we have the same mindset we want to just fucking keep achieving was another like just amazing part about this space like came here with like a let no, no business stuff. Like you guys are cool and we have similar mindsets. I'm sure like make money out of it anyway just from talking and being amongst each other. But yeah, I just love that part about the space and the camaraderie and like, honestly, I think, like you know, that's another thing that just goes back to like Carter Ray, who you had on here and all that Just like I thought that was amazing. Like I've been in the space a long time, obviously, but like up until like three, four years ago, I never really talked to anyone in the space, like I just like.
Speaker 2:I found out about it like two years ago, man, People were talking about Michael Walk, right, oh, that's Michael Walk. That's crazy, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because, like, honestly, back then obviously the mentality is like don't tell anyone shit because that's not your competition, because you've told them shit. And then, like new learnings, people shifted my whole mindset. I was like, wait a minute, facebook is way more traffic than I ever thought, or whatever. Google is way more traffic than I ever thought. There's no harm. It's actually more valuable to share with people on your level, because if they really appreciate our good people, they'll reciprocate and like, not everyone's going to reciprocate it, like, but even if one in ten of those people reciprocate it, like that could change your life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, it goes a long way. And then, guess what? You get invited into those circles, right? I mean, we're here with a bunch of fucking people doing great things, yeah, and it's because obviously we've added value, value, and that's what happens.
Speaker 1:You get invited, and then we, we share ideas and it just grows and goes back to what I said in the beginning right like you just can't, you got to maintain the relationship. You can't be a scummy person. You can't burn people like if you were to burn people you can't show up here, or maybe, but as long as you pay people when you leave.
Speaker 2:But like I'm kidding, but like yeah.
Speaker 1:so like I'd say that's very important. Just do good business and be honest. Like hey, if you don't have it, some buyer fucked you over or whatever. I always appreciate people say like my man, I don't have your money because some buyer didn't pay me Versus, like I didn't hear from you. Then I started thinking the worst. I'm like I'm going to Google.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're thinking crazy shit. Yeah, I started thinking crazy and it fucks up your creativity you can't think about. It's not good, right? Yeah, and that's really I think in our industry. We're like artists, right? I get a lot of my production done in my downtime. Sometimes I'm on a plane, no one can call me and I'm like I'm getting great fucking ideas, right, right. So when that happens, it's like it's not worth it right.
Speaker 1:So it's better to just cut that thing and just keep moving. Man, yeah, yeah, and it spaces all ideas too. That's another thing, ready for another shot. My man, let's do it I got.
Speaker 2:I got a feeling you're ready, bro, a little water as well, but yeah, no good shit. Listen how you liking medellin so far, I know you just landed yesterday. Man, what's your first impression of this is?
Speaker 1:I'm to tell you my first impression, but I'll tell you my second. All right, we've got to ask you. I'll tell you my second. It's an amazing city. Honestly, it's a beautiful place. I feel like the perception, like everyone, I mean, you know, like the perceptions come from America. Every American thinks, I don't know, it's going to be dangerous, something like that. But I just feel like there's good, genuine, amazing people and it's interesting to just learn different cultures, be different places, because you know like yeah, if you've only been in the US, you just think that's how the world is right. But like what we only make up one 20th, maybe not, but whatever.
Speaker 1:Like one 15th so it's like there's so much more to see and I just appreciate that aspect. I was saying to like to John earlier.
Speaker 2:It's like we're both saying like this is the place we've been probably with like the least English speaking and like I don't know, I actually enjoy it it makes you level up.
Speaker 1:I'm like now man Cheers my man.
Speaker 2:Speaking of which, Ron's here with us. He was shooting content yesterday, right, UGC man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't wait to see that shit man.
Speaker 2:I think when you travel right, you get new fucking ideas. I was just in Dubai, man Bro anyone. If you haven't been to a feeling in Dubai, you gotta go, the gotta go. The buildings are insane. I don't even know how they are. They do this architecture. There's fucking ferraris, lamborghinis everywhere and it makes you think like yo, you think you're doing good.
Speaker 1:You gotta step your shit up right and that's another thing I love about the space because I always love I don't know, maybe not the best trip. I always love like people tell me like they're doing better than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know like a little like I guess the arrogance of it all, like I don't know, I think you got to be a little well, maybe you don't, but like arrogant and like I always want to be the best right. So I hear someone's like oh yeah, we're crushing it right now. We're doing 200, 300, whatever.
Speaker 1:I'm like I'm happy for you, but like you're not there yet, like fuck I want that too, like now, like you've motivated me to do some shit, and like because I I'm not the best now, like you know now.
Speaker 2:so Well, that's another thing about you You're very humble man. You know you're super humble and let's, let's, let's, let's, let's not be so humble right now. Let's talk about some numbers. Man, you're comfortable with Cause, you're. I mean I, I was. I heard the John Castle podcast, which is amazing. Right, the interview you did with you is that right?
Speaker 1:two million insurance leads calls yeah, I mean to insurance calls, yeah probably more than that, like over the course of I mean two, my two fucking million.
Speaker 1:That's a big fucking number, my four different ringba instances in history, like yeah, probably, um, yeah, just just I would say like med aca, those have really just been the ones that like hit on the call side and I feel like it was just a lot of things coming together. Like I've known Harrison and Adam for a long time, I was running Med leads like pretty successfully doing like good numbers, like five figures, mid five figures a day. And then I remember one time going to insure tech and honestly I met it with uh, somerville, bill somerville, um, and he was, by the way, yeah, great guy and he was just telling, honestly, bill was getting started in it too, like wasn't really, yeah, what year was this about?
Speaker 1:2019, say, or 20, 2019, or 2020, okay, 2020, um. And he just met me, like we went to the breakfast at lava there and he's like, dude, here's how to um, you know, here's what's going on, the call space medicare, blah, blah. And then after that I talked to adam. I mean, adam always has a lot of fucking good advice, honestly, he's amazing. Yeah, so like we can talk about it after this. But like his masterminds I've gone to, I feel like have given me more value than like probably like honestly, like any other mastermind, so things I actually implement out of the business.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, what was I saying before that Like so like we're talking about how you started at scale you, but yeah, no, what was I saying before that?
Speaker 1:Like so, like we're talking about how you started to scale. You went to InsureTech. Oh right, right, right, right, right right right.
Speaker 2:So, like it's happening to Ray too, by the way, it's this stuff right here. It's starting to hit you bro yeah.
Speaker 1:So, exactly, so like, and then it was like wait a minute. Honestly, it gave me like wait, we can track calls in the same way that we track leads. There's no difference with this whole like ring tree stuff that they have and all that and um, it just blew up that enrollment, like you know like I was now.
Speaker 2:You're like your lfg moment.
Speaker 1:Let's fucking go, let's fucking go yeah and like that, it just crushed like it. It crushed like. I think bill came up off of that too. I was making a different, you know, just a different level. You were another tax bracket, then yeah, well, same tax bracket, but like higher effective rate, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, yeah, but, bro, that's what I like about this industry is that we rise up together, right, and it's great. You want someone like Bill who tells you some information. We want to all go up Exactly Because there's always going to be another campaign, right, and we're going to come together in that fucking campaign and we're going to grow and crush this shit.
Speaker 1:And it's like with Bill too. It's like he showed me that side. I told him, like hey, here's the media buying with Bill too. It was like he showed me that side. I told him like hey, here's the media buying, here's all these guys, the Carters of the world, and like, honestly, like these days we don't do that much anymore like we did then, but like it's always all love, like you know from that cut up together and like, if it was ever, we got him exactly.
Speaker 2:So, um, just doing good, good business and uh, yeah, bro, that was a lot. I gotta do another shot there, because that that fucking you got me. That's one of the things that people don't talk about is like those that that was a breakfast at lavo, right, that kind of was an epiphany moment for you and you're going this breakfast let me see what's going on. But that's that adventure of mindset like right, let me go check this shit out.
Speaker 1:I met Somerville on Facebook. Same way I met Carter. Actually I literally see him posting Honestly, you know what it is my man, ron, over there. I used to be like Ron. I told him I was like you should have shut up. He was posting his stats, all that. I was like what the fuck is this guy doing? Like what the fuck I don't tell you? Like I used to be like what's going on over there and then I talked to Somerville and he's like oh, it's this paper call like blah, blah, blah stuff. And then like, and then yeah, so like.
Speaker 2:And then talked to like Adam and Adam taught me like how to track it and all that, and I was like I think it all came together. It all came together and then it was like boom and exactly.
Speaker 1:And it's an example of like you just got to like meet people, be an adventure, and like, just don't be a shitty human, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So, bro, there's a guy named Bradley. He's got a show called Drop and Bomb. That was a fucking bomb. He was like, dude, press a button, a button and, like you know, be a good human being, don't be shady, meet people, be an adventure. We complicate shit, man in business. Sometimes I've done that too. Listen, I'm not perfect. I've been doing this a while. There's times where I complicate shit and add to shit, but when you keep it simple, man, it all comes back to that man.
Speaker 1:No, I agree, I always. I'm always willing to give people, as long as I can take away from my core business or make them competition, to take away from my daily dollars Because I won. Like I see myself, like I would have wished someone would have told me something, but, like you know, not completely altruistic, I'm like I, it's an investment, right, if I put 10 things out there, one of them is going to come back and make me more money than I've given on these 10 things. Or or yeah, maybe, yeah, exactly, and then like, yeah, that's what it comes down to.
Speaker 2:I love it, man. So let's, let's talk about that there. That moment, that LFG moment, you started fucking moving like where did you go? You want, we were doing a few thousand calls a day. What, when did that? What did I? Go to 10,000 calls a day, 50,000, like how many calls were you doing at that point?
Speaker 1:at that point it's a little different. On volume of calls, like my peak revenue, peak volume of calls are two different things. Um, I I don't remember the call numbers, but like we scaled that open enrollment, like my first open enrollment, medicare calls, like 350k days, stuff like that. Like, just like before everyone was like oh, medicare, medicare, and that's why. Because people see the success of it and like, honestly, I feel like that made it grow a lot because, like I know a lot of these publishers and they weren't running calls and they say like wait, what's this guy doing over here? And even like trying to talk like different networks and stuff. Like, hey, we need you might have some medicare buyers that you sell leads to ask them if they need calls. Yeah, and then like honestly, some of those relationships like um did work and like they like went to their lead buyers and got calls, but like also, at the same time, it just grew.
Speaker 1:I think it blew it up a little. We're like what's going on over there? Oh, calls, all right. Now every network and their mother is like calls, calls, calls For sure, because they hear the numbers and all that. And it's like all right if I start doing it and then someone else starts doing it, and then someone else starts doing it, and then these AMs who had people running leads before like hey, why don't you rank traffic anymore? They're all like I'm running calls and all this money, then they're going to get into calls and then it's just fucking yeah, blown up from there.
Speaker 2:So it sounds great and glamorous, right to hit these numbers. 350k days, right, but there's not. Nothing is as easy as it seems. Obviously, right, so I could imagine cash flow, right, I mean, you're doing fucking 350k and I'm not saying every day is like, but let's say you did. Let's say a couple hundred k a day. You're talking about what is 30 days. That's six million a month, right? Yeah, I mean, for somebody that went for suing shoes on ebay, right, and like to get to that level, like what were some of the growing pains on that, scaling to that level?
Speaker 1:yeah, like, like you said, like cash flow and honestly, like never, like you know, took like money from everyone, investments like that, just literally bootstrapped. I remember my first guy I was fucking flipping that shit on a debit card, that's another story, but like yeah, um, but like it's just like convincing people give me twice a week payments, fuck it, pay me daily.
Speaker 1:It's just like convince people give me twice a week payments. It pay me daily. It's like showing your value because, like they're, they need you at that point. So, like they don't want the traffic drive, it's like, hey, if you want this level of volume to keep going, I need this amount of money. And if it was like, I need this this fast if it's sitting in their bank account anyway, it's like what the hell?
Speaker 2:is the difference? You just said something like really big. Yeah, I think people lose in our industry. Lose, lose sight of and I've done this too is knowing your value right and and sometimes we think a lead vendor we're like lead vendors no you're a fucking partner in their business without them they're not gonna well us.
Speaker 1:They can't hit their fucking numbers honestly, I feel like in this space in general, like especially networks, I feel like a lot of times will undervalue the publisher partnerships Because they'll see the big names right. They'll say, oh, my advertiser is Quicken Loans, they're Loan Depot, We'll do whatever not to burn that relationship, but at the same time, they don't have that mentality about standard conversions or whoever spooky marketing and those companies will make you more money than the Quicken Loans. I just think, yeah, the mentality we have with Rubicon, we have a couple external guys Just treat them with the value and, honestly, to me, I think publishers are as important. It depends on, like, what the season offer and all that is. Publishers are as important or more important than the advertisers. I agree, If you have a solid network of publishers like once you have something that's good and going to hit, like you can always tap into that.
Speaker 1:Like you know, say for me now, like I don't know, I got a lot of homies who run a lot of ads. If I ever had something that was huge. You know, like I'm like yo, we need $10 million a day on this shit.
Speaker 2:You could probably get it, man, honestly, If it was that good probably.
Speaker 2:It comes down to having a good product right, and I think that that's a big point. I've been in that situation as well. I didn't get next day payments, but I would go from guys that are net 30, net 45 to fucking weekly. That makes a big difference. That's what I would imagine would be the biggest issue. If you put in those kind of numbers like the cash flow, how the fuck do I keep this going? And they need you. If you cut that off, they're going to fucking pay next day. They'll move mountains to make that shit happen.
Speaker 1:Right because they're making their money right, like at the end of the day, like they see, whatever their margin is, they're making 15%, like they want to keep making that you know. Even if they got to put a little more money out today, they know it should come back if they trust their partners on the back end and all that yeah.
Speaker 2:I love it man.
Speaker 1:Can I take a piss real quick? Oh go, take a piss. Great, I'll get a shot ready for us.
Speaker 2:Where the fuck did we leave off? I don't even remember what the fuck are we talking about, anyway. So listen, let's say I'm someone brand new. I'm watching the LFG show. I'm watching the Ringba Offerwall, the affiliate marketing show, right, and I see these guys putting on numbers. I'm watching Ron Hart man putting up his numbers. Man, what's a word of advice? One word of advice someone new trying to get in the industry. What would you say to them?
Speaker 1:yeah, like I think it's a lot different now than like, say, when I started, but I would say the number one thing is just to network and talk to people. Like you can make so much money in this space just from knowing people. Like literally, like there's people in the space who are just good at knowing people, managing people, managing relationships, and then also, um, you know, like the business side of it. There's just no like inherent, like, oh my god, I'm a great marketer, I'm a great tech guy. They're just no, they know business and know how to network. Um, you know, like there's so much money. Like me and Ray were just talking about this. It's just like, yeah, like literally every show is the goal is just to just to talk to people. Um, so I would say like if I was brand new in this day and age, getting started, I would say like I would try to take some basic level of course or learning. I honestly I'm big on YouTube with anything. I know there's tons of YouTube content out there for free. Like I know John Castro puts out stuff and even like just the interviews and stuff. You're not going to get direct learning, but you're going to get the mindset of everyone there and I'm like, wow, all those guys are saying this, they're doing this, there's similarities here. Let, let me at least do that part. So I would say network, go to a show, affiliate Summit, affiliate World Legion, and then maybe the courses like Carlos Corona's, and then there's some guys that teach higher level ones, like Gabe Ansel. He's in Miami, yeah, yeah, stuff like that. And I know a lot of guys, honestly, who just learned from this program are just crushers now.
Speaker 1:But if you want to just go about it completely for free that's the thing about this space you don't have to, and I think that's a misconception that people have with online ads and all this Like, well, I've got to drop all this money for some course to ever learn how to do it and it for some course to ever learn how to do it, and it's like no. Like, if you're really willing to grind and sift through information, that'll give you a shortcut, because they sifted through the information for you. But like, if you really like want this shit more than you want to fucking breathe, like you can go on youtube.
Speaker 1:I used to read every post in all the facebook groups, all the the facebook ad bar groups, every you know back in the day, like Digital Point, black Hat, world Warrior Forum, all that. I just read all of it and you get one little tidbit that can change anything, and then everything, and then, yeah, just consuming the content. Nowadays it's shifted but it's like I feel like you just got to get in that right circle of of media buyers and it's just saying hi, like I've met guys. They're like it doesn't even matter if they've done crazy numbers on anything. It's like you know what? You're a cool person, whatever. Hit me up, I'll link with you and then, if you need something, I can link you up to someone else.
Speaker 1:All that they're willing to give man exactly they're not like and I keep all this shit for myself and I appreciate just people like just going for it, like hey, I'm so fucking nervous this is my first show I've ever been to. It's like honestly, like I I appreciate you doing that and like I probably would at that point I've had the balls to do that shit. So, yeah, so like I don't know, I always think stuff like that's dope. And then I always think it's dope seeing them in a couple years, like I saw where you were, bimmer, I first met you when you first fucking started.
Speaker 2:Now look at you. Well, I'm getting that feedback right now from people like especially with the LFG show I was in Dubai. People are taking picture. What the fuck the Washington?
Speaker 1:show famous.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I got people for like from 20 years ago, like Dave, I'm so proud of you, like I shit, I forgot about those moments yeah that's part of the progression, it's beautiful. Like I'm like, wow, you're right. Like I forgot I was at that stage now and it's. And I know, bro, I'm still learning. I'm learning from guys like you. I'm learning from guys I hear it right here in this room we're always learning. We gotta always have that mindset and that's how you continue to grow once you stop learning.
Speaker 1:You're fucking dead man and that's the thing about this. But you can always learn and like I don't know, yeah, it would be it would be arrogance to say anything else like you can always learn this, always someone who does something way better than you do, like always like Ron doing data monetization, all that stuff.
Speaker 1:I'm like what's going on, like you know, like I've been those a long time, like stuff like that, still like advanced and oppressive, like guys who do the UGC and they're like my bad, yeah that's like this how you do the hook and the format and all of that, and I'm like I haven't even thought of that ever, but you just dropped knowledge on me that like took you probably some money and some time to figure out. And that goes back to what I was saying. It's just like sharing knowledge. Maybe I told them how to set up a pixel in in you know the tracking platform, and was it Red Track or something, and to me that's like nothing.
Speaker 1:And then they showed me how to make videos and stuff, and to them that's nothing but to each of us.
Speaker 2:That's a great time and that's huge man that helps move the fucking needle.
Speaker 1:You got me thinking of tears, my man.
Speaker 2:This is fucking great. So I mean, I wanted to ask a follow-up question but you diverted me a little bit. I went to the Super Bowl, saw the Eagles play. We fucking lost Terrible, fucking tough loss. Yeah, you, that weekend you were at a mastermind. Yeah, was that Spooky or Gabe's? That was Gabe's event. Yeah, and that shows a level of dedication. The Eagles were playing that day, yeah, and you were at a mastermind. A mastermind. But, bro, that's actually the best move to make Because your team was. But how much think about it. That shows your level of fucking dedication to your craft, man, I mean yeah and like to me like I have serious FOMO.
Speaker 1:I don't want to miss any info.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that's what it comes down to.
Speaker 1:Somebody has some new vertical, something hitting. I'm like fuck. I've just been in that room in Vail and it also goes back to what I was saying. You can learn too Honestly. I spoke at that event, but I was also one of the people asking the most questions.
Speaker 2:Wait what's that? Well, we're a geek out. We're also a geek out in Denver. I forgot about that. You were asking the most questions there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like a lot of people they want to make it seem like, oh no, I don't know, they want to be cool, right, I'm the expert I know so much. Like let me not ask that, but like I don't know if it's going to further my business, I don't care, of course, yeah, none of us know everything like you know. So, yeah, and just like the geek out thing, I.
Speaker 2:He was the first fucking speaker. I had to go later.
Speaker 1:I'm a filth of retriever.
Speaker 2:What the fuck are we going to talk about this guy?
Speaker 1:is going to be like jerk offs over here.
Speaker 2:That was one more impressive speech, and again, that's just an example. That would be a million dollar campaigns man.
Speaker 1:He's like this is how you run a million a day on the PPP loan stuff and I was just like and that's another few examples it's like being an adventurer, but it's also like there's always bigger and badder. That's one of the reasons I try to like humble myself to a level right no-transcript, the infancy of it.
Speaker 2:I don't know where we're at. What do you think? You think this is the? Where are we in this? You know what are we?
Speaker 1:the evolution affiliate marketing is dead. No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2:I thought you were serious, bro.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, it's a joke because they've been saying that since. They always say that. They said that since 2011. Yeah, Literally. And I know guys to this day who are making black hat money and all that. And I talked to another friend and they were just like, wait, you're still doing this, Bob, Bob Bob told me this was dead. I was like, no, because they just had a certain lane. No, because they just had a certain lane. They didn't really try to understand it at a higher level. They didn't evolve.
Speaker 1:So, like again, this space, I think, is always evolving. At the end of the day, it's businesses who want consumers on an acquisition basis. That's never going away Period. And then you throw in the call stuff and all of that too. It's just like it makes it even easier for them to connect, because certain businesses might not be set up to like ingest leads and have all this. But you can dumb it down to like we will have people call your office and you just pay for qualified people. Like that's only gonna accelerate the space.
Speaker 2:I love it, man. So the other question I was gonna ask let's pretend I was somebody who's been doing this. Let's say I've been doing this for many, many years. I hit a plateau. What's your advice to someone like that? Maybe I was doing six figures a day and now I'm down to low fives Because that shit happens. Campaigns die. They don't last forever. So what's your advice to someone like that?
Speaker 1:Almost the same. Just get out there and talk to people, just be honest, like you might have someone who like really sympathizes with your situation, with your network, like if you were making a hundred but whatever, and you're like hey ray, look, yeah, no, things aren't too great, we're struggling a little bit. He might be like I got you, I'm gonna give you some plug and play shit because you're, you're the homie or whatever, just because he's fucking feeling some type of way that day.
Speaker 1:Just because he's feeling good on a Tuesday. That shit's happened to me when someone's like I'm like, why are you telling me this shit? So I feel like a lot of people they just have too much pride. Honestly, in that situation, if things died out for me, I'd be like I'd just tap into my network and be like, hey, what are you doing? What offers are hot, what platforms, what issues are you seeing? And it's like one-on-one. Try to talk to them and probably like get them on a phone call, obviously that we're in person.
Speaker 1:But if you can't just like, hey, I really would pick your brain about this. You have second for like a 15 minute call. And like I always say like, yeah, if you can get, get outside like the whole text. You know, like Skype, all that bubble, you can get a lot more information. And then, like I would say, beyond that, just testing, right, Like you just got to keep testing, testing, testing. And then also, like you don't ever get to that point, while shit's hot, you got to keep acting like it's not, like just forget about that shit, like not forget about it.
Speaker 1:But I had that mistake too and I always tell newer publishers when something's working, keep going, because you're taking this for granted, you're in your mind saying, all right, I'm making $500 a day multiplied by 365. I'm good, blah, blah, blah. But I promise you, in my experience doing this, no campaign, just without bumps, lasts 365. Absolutely yeah. So, like when you're making that money, just assume it's going to get cut off fucking tomorrow and you should keep building upon that. So, like I would say it's more like a preemptive thing If you've been doing it and shit dies down, like it happens, because the ships are the space, but, like you, probably got complacent at some point along the way.
Speaker 1:I agree, that's 100%, I'm going through that shit with solar right now Solar was fucking great for fucking seven years man.
Speaker 1:But it's almost like, yeah, you can't predict it, that's your core business, right? Like you can't be like, all right, let me just do some shit outside of solar. It's my core business. But like, I feel like, as you see that decline, right, you'd be like, all right, I got to get in that grind mode again. I got to. I'm not like who I thought I was. It's time to go back to old me and what you said.
Speaker 2:Even when it was going I was hitting big fucking numbers. I'm like got solar. But if a new president comes in and says fuck solar, right? So I always lived by my test. So I started senior direct marketing.
Speaker 1:And then we started doing fucking.
Speaker 2:We started doing Medicare, we're doing ACA, we're doing debt, right. So we got that and I always said at one point senior directs would overtake solar direct and it fucking happened. But you got to do that, man, Because, bro, now it's not where it was, but I had that same mentality. It hit me like three years ago. I'm like I'm a fucking one trick pony here. I don't want to be one trick pony. I merged my company with another company and we're doing data. We're like that's what you got to do. So what you said right there is super, super valuable and that's chill. But you can't chill, man. You got to keep fucking going. Then you got to develop a team. So my next question you talk about your team. How the fuck you? Obviously, if you put in those kind of numbers like what's your team, like how many people have a team, what's, what's the whole composition of that?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, on the room con side. Okay, what's this? Four, five, six, it's like like all 10 of us, less than 10 and um, I mean, it's just getting talented, motivated people and that's it Are they mainly US based, or what's the so yeah when I say, in the US, what are we?
Speaker 1:four like seven, eight, something like that, eight in the US and then I guess maybe like three outside, seven or eight in the US and three outside. And then, yeah, like, for me I look for, like I want a hustler before any fucking talent, anything like that. Wow, I've had a media buyer asking me, like, so what? Like, what's the skill? Like you think that make a successful media buyer? I'm like I want somebody who's going to hustle, who's seen hard shit generally with a media buyer, like you know, like, and they have the mentality like my media buyer partner is now like Wesley, like he'd never media buy in his life and he was a busser at Encore Beach Club in Vegas, you know. But I'm like he's just like nah, I don't ever want to go back to bussing in 110 degree weather, right. So the mentality is different. You're willing to just do what the fuck? Whatever? Sometimes with making ads, like it's not even, not even like who's creative or not, who's willing to actually execute and do, to do that shit. Um, because, like, that's my mentality, like, if I gotta eat, I'll do whatever you know. So that's the, that's the main thing. And, like, all of us are hustlers and like that's the thing I'm, honestly, I I feel blessed because, like that's not, it's not my style, I don't ever have to like really overly manage people and all of that, because, like that's not, it's not my style, I don't ever have to like really overly manage people and all of that, because, like one people are incentivized to do it but everyone just has that fucking mentality of of winning and doing more um. And then it's just like fighting smart people and good people that I've worked with in the space before, generally in most cases, but like so the wesley one. But like most of the people I work with, like John, issa, david, ricky, blah blah are just people I've worked with and like wait, like you're fucking talented, I promise you like we could do more together than apart. Like not going to hinder you, not going to like fuck you over in any way. So that's the team.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, like I would say most of our team is just people have been in the space and have done it before, but then also like hustlers, like so it's like there's a couple people who have it um. And then one thing I got from, like actually adam's mastermind I don't know if he wants to give this away for free. But no, like he was just like look at your competition and like not even competition, the companies you would want to be right, and like I, I saw one. It was honestly like um, we went through. There was like quote velocity, just like these guys fucking crush on calling man. He's like all those guys. I'm like all right, that's one company. I was like we're not at that level, like I think I do some shit, but those guys do shit. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Like so great guys too, by the way, yeah yeah, I don't know him that well, but like I know, yeah, man, he's a very good guy. He's always willing to share and, like, even not knowing him, he's always been willing to share. Um, but like, if we, you know, took that mentality, he's like. He basically said you should go and try to acquire talent from the companies that you want to be like, which is honestly, like might have been life-changing for me. That's, it was game-changing, but might have been life-changing because, like, I never thought about that and it's just like, and you never thought you could do that and like, yeah, I remember we went and did it.
Speaker 1:John, like like one of their devs there's like all right, they have looking good tech, all this. Like we hired a dev from that companies when one of the best devs period. Yeah, so like that matters a lot. I said that's a tip for anyone here. I just think about write down five companies that you admire that you want to like fuck, I'm here right now, but I want to get to where that company is and then just get on LinkedIn, see people who worked there, who, whatever, who worked there previously, because now what you're getting is, like that knowledge a little bit right.
Speaker 2:That's more like an acquisition right.
Speaker 1:It comes out and you get.
Speaker 2:You're kind of doing the same thing, you're acquiring that experience, you're collapsing time frames.
Speaker 1:That's collapsing time frames.
Speaker 2:I like that. It's collapsing time frames, you know. So that right there, that's another drop in bombs moment. I got to come up with an elegy moment, boom yeah.
Speaker 1:That's what that is. Yeah, somebody throw like an overlay or something over that we will, we will.
Speaker 2:That right there. That's what I said Bring your fucking notepads out. If I was in school, that shit would be like.
Speaker 1:It's so simple but like you know, like if you want to build a data company and pass all that, hire someone from fluent yeah, you know, if you want to like, like, whatever.
Speaker 1:That's what people have done yeah, exactly so. Like um, it's, it's valuable as fucking like. And you'd be surprised like a lot of people in this space like don't, like, I don't know. I think they're scared to hire those businesses. Like I'm just the media buyer. They don't want to like transition. I think at that point it's like transition to a real business, right and like. I think a lot of people just undersell themselves like because you can go and hire those people, they will like oh, I'm just a media buyer, no one wants to come work with me. And also like, fucking, do a deal with me. Like, no, you can go get devs, business development people, affiliate affiliate managers, whatever media buyers, whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah you have a lot more than you think. It's crazy, I think, like you said, going back to understanding your value right, Getting around hustlers, and it's a lot easier said than done, obviously, and it takes time, but man, fucking amazing it is.
Speaker 1:But it's just doing it and trying it, Like I wouldn't say it's easier said than done until I fail at it. Right, Because most people think it's easier said than done, but they just haven't tried it Because they might on the first try, just fucking do it.
Speaker 2:Listen, I feel like we can talk. We can sit here drink fucking five bottles of this shit and people do that.
Speaker 1:We can be here like seven more and ask where the guy?
Speaker 2:we can't man, but we're going to probably do a part two.
Speaker 1:We'll do it in another city, for sure, right, for sure.
Speaker 2:This was fucking amazing guys. This was an amazing, amazing episode. I hope everyone took the notes. Like I said, michael Walker, we talked about being in Columbia. We're here and it's like I wish everyone could see the other side of this. We got we're going to do a dinner behind the scenes dinner. I'd be like you know some bonus stuff here, but like this is gonna be fucking great. So I'm glad that you're here, man.
Speaker 2:Thanks for sharing you don't have to fucking do this, man. The fact that you want me to do this says a lot.
Speaker 1:You know for you guys like whatever, it's all off.
Speaker 1:How can people find out more about you? What's, what's your you know ID, link to like what? What do you recommend? Um, yeah, I mean so, performcom, they can. I mean our emails. I'll throw someone else's email. Uh, I'll throw isa, sorry, isa, um, isa, isa at rubicon, performcom, um, and if you want to add me on instagram and see my debauchery um, it's fun. Underscore walker, uh, its underscoreS. Underscore Walker, um, and yeah, whatever, just reach out and connect. I'm always I don't know, I always like seeing people come up Like I think a lot of people would tell you that, like you know, like whatever, you didn't have to tell me you're doing crazy numbers or whatever. I'm like nah, this is a good person. He's wants to make it just like I did. He wants to bring his family up and succeed and all that and make a living. I don't know. I always think that's cool. You've taken the steps and had ambition, so sometimes you need to push it. If it costs me nothing, I don't know That'd be fucked not to do it.
Speaker 2:I love it. Listen, we're going to end with a shot here. This is what the American dream is about. Right, you bust your ass, you work hard, you take risks, you fall down, get the fuck back up. And that's what Michael Walker is doing. The beautiful thing, man, he's still in his early 30s. I wish I could go back 10 years and be you're going to keep making an impact. I think we're going to keep creating memories, and let's do a lot more of these fucking LLG modes.
Speaker 1:Let's fucking go, baby. Let's appreciate it, Love it man, beautiful shit.
Speaker 2:That was a banger man, that was a fucking banger.
Speaker 1:That was good shit, man Thank you.