Positively Leading

S1E10 - Being Brave and Happy Leadership Accidents with Vanessa Buemi

• Jenny Cole • Season 1 • Episode 10

Share episode

Send us a text

In this episode Vanessa Buemi, affectionally  known as Ness, joins me to share her journey from being a visual arts teacher to becoming a dedicated regional VET coordinator. Her story is one of change, fueled by mentorship and a commitment to educational equality. Starting her teaching career at 34, Ness used her late start to motivate her pursuit of growth and guidance. She discusses how mentors and key discussions have shaped her leadership style, providing useful insights for anyone looking to enhance their career path.

Leadership is more than just giving orders; it involves connecting with your team. Our talk dives into how effective communication in leadership involves a mix of empathy and decisiveness. Ness shares her methods for handling difficult conversations with patience and clarity, turning potential conflicts into opportunities for progress. We also discuss the importance of maintaining a focus on people while managing strict processes, especially under pressure. This episode offers valuable tips for anyone leading a team or classroom, helping them manage complex relationships effectively.

Imagine a world where education is custom-fit for each student. That’s the future Ness and I discuss, focusing on empowering students through collaborative efforts. We highlight the importance of recognizing each student's unique abilities, particularly those often overlooked. We also talk about how partnerships between schools, industries, and community organizations can create a stronger support network for students. This episode reflects the courage needed to embrace leadership, the resilience to overcome challenges, and the openness to adapt to new situations. Join us for this meaningful conversation, and if it strikes a chord with you, don’t forget to subscribe, follow, and leave a review to join our ongoing conversation.

Did you know there is more? You can access every episode, show notes, links and more via my website Positively Beaming.

Jenny Cole:

Hello, fabulous educators, welcome back to Positively Leading. When I invited my guest today, she said to me about a hundred times why me? You sure you meant me which I replied with absolutely you, vanessa, you are always on the top of my list because I think the world needs more compassionate, caring, empathetic, yet driven leaders. So a huge welcome to Vanessa Buemi, who I call Ness. Are we okay to call you Ness? Yes, beautiful, just going to read a little bit about Ness's background and then she's going to fill us in on her journey.

Jenny Cole:

So she's currently a regional vet coordinator, vocational education and training, supporting over 50 schools. She has a visual arts background, working in this area for 13 years before moving into the school-based vet coordinator role, and what I love about Vanessa is that she advocates for all people to have equitable access and opportunities for education, training, employment and further study. When I first met her, she was working at a senior secondary school that was focused particularly on refugees and adult learners, and when she's not doing that, she is the primary carer for three adults in her world, and I love the fact that she said to me that, like most of us, she just gets up every day slightly more tired and with less razzle-dazzle than she would like and puts one foot in front of the other. So a huge welcome to you, ness. Thank you for joining me. Thanks, jen.

Vanessa Buemi:

Thank you for inviting me.

Jenny Cole:

Could you share a little bit about your leadership journey or your education journey, and I'm kind of curious to know was it accidental or were there parts of your journey that were planned?

Vanessa Buemi:

That's a good question, I think a bit accidental and some planned as well. So my history is in visual arts so I chose to go to TAFE first. Curtin University frightened me at that time, being a little country girl. So I went to TAFE and did a diploma that took three years in that time and then eventually went to uni, got some credits and went into a degree. Then someone said, well, why don't you do your honours? And I was like, yeah, okay, let's do my honours. And then someone said, why don't you apply for a scholarship to do the masters? And I thought, well, I'll give it a shot, I doubt my chances. And I got it and I felt like I'd won the lottery because then I had two years of paid tuition, so everything was paid for and I could really expand my art.

Vanessa Buemi:

But during that time I was always interested in teaching as well, because I think right back to probably when I was 13, year eight, someone said what do you want to do? And I said I wanted to be a visual arts teacher and through lots of different circumstances I went to teaching at the age of 34. I had a little practice first as a tutor in gifted and talented education at Apple Cross Senior High School and I loved it From day one. I loved it. So that's sort of how it started and I was always really fortunate to have really good female role models and heads of learning areas and things like that. So I always had someone that I could go to and ask. And possibly because I was older, when I started I was 34. So I'd done lots of other things.

Vanessa Buemi:

So I was an art teacher for three years at Apple Cross. I worked there for a while and then I went to another school and that's where I was introduced to vocational education and training. And I think I'd introduced to vocational education and training and I think I'd been teaching for three years and I had my timetable given to me and it said vet on it and I said what's vet? And they just sort of laughed at me and this was way back in the early 2000s. So I had to sort of stumble my way through that and learn it, because I didn't actually know what it was and no one showed me or taught me. So I had to learn the language myself and I think from doing that that's sort of how I've approached other things and that's how my leadership journey began, I just sort of thought, all right, then let's find out what this is, and just went along with it each time.

Jenny Cole:

And I guess asked lots of questions along the way, or sort of burrow in and try and work it out yourself. A little bit of both.

Vanessa Buemi:

I do remember saying to my mum once when I was in school like I was too embarrassed and too shy to ask questions in class, and she said to me well, how will you learn? How will you find out what the answer is? So then I remember actively practising that as a child and I still do that. That memory sort of comes back every time I want to ask a question in public, Like I don't want to be the person who doesn't know the answer. But then I think, well, other people might not know either, so I'll ask the question. And I've actually discovered that a lot of people don't always know.

Jenny Cole:

So they're just pretending. Yes.

Vanessa Buemi:

Well, they always look really confident when they're pretending and me I feel a big blubbering mess. I'm like everyone will be able to tell I don't know, but that's what I've done. I've sort of had to be brave and ask questions all along the way.

Jenny Cole:

And I know that in your career you've had some pretty big personalities, some very outstanding leaders. Yes, so tell me, and you can name them if you want to. But what I'm curious about is what have you learnt from them? What have they showed you, and how do you want to be like them or not be like them? Share what you've learnt from those amazing role models, Well.

Vanessa Buemi:

I think probably my first

Vanessa Buemi:

Head of learning area was my first role model in the teaching world and she was just really vivacious and energetic and fun to be around and she made lessons engaging for the students. I used to say to her can I sit in the back of your class and learn from you and see how you do it? And she was always happy for that to happen and she built my confidence a lot. She sort of taught me how to learn, how to be confident in myself and I think she'd been on a similar journey where she didn't feel that confident and she probably could see that in me and that really helped a lot because then I didn't feel like I was asking dumb questions or anything like that. So my first head of learning area was probably the first and one of the most important leaders that I've worked with. I think even through university as well, I had quite a lot of strong female leaders and I've discovered that it's their minds that really attract me, like they're smart and they think and they share and they sort of showed me that they were the sort of people that I could go to and knock something out with and I could say what do you think about this, or am I doing this the right way, or what can I change?

Vanessa Buemi:

Recently, the person that's been the best role model for me was Dr Karen Reid. I remember she came to one of the schools I taught at when I was on a third year out and she came and she spoke at this school and that was a difficult to staff school and it was a really tough, tough school to be at. And she came and talked about what she was doing in her school and I thought who is this person? She's amazing and just the way she approached everything. And then I think it was 10 years later I was really fortunate that she stepped in to be the principal at the senior campus I was working at and I was a bit shy but I bowed up to her and I told her the story and I said I always wanted to work with you.

Vanessa Buemi:

After I heard you speaking at this school and I was so inspired. I think she was a bit embarrassed, but I asked her also if she would mentor me. As I got to know her more, I said how do you feel about being a mentor and she said, okay, it sort of was the way she worked anyway with anyone she had that sort of approach she would listen, she'd let you ask questions, even really hard, tough questions, and she'd give you an honest answer. For me, even working with her now, I do still feel like I know where I'm at, like if I'm on the right path or not, and I do return to her quite often. If I have a little dilemma, I think I'll ask Karen.

Jenny Cole:

I think that's crucial about a good mentor is that they not only give you advice, but they give you feedback. You know the good, the bad and the ugly. They let you know where you're succeeding, but also where you could get better. Did you find that Karen kind of challenged you in that way as well?

Vanessa Buemi:

She did. I used to go to her sometimes I can probably say that I had a few whinges and saying what do I need to do? How can I change that? And I think one day she said to me I think you know how you could change it. And I was like, do I?

Vanessa Buemi:

And we sort of went back and forth a little bit and I kept suggesting ways that I thought she thought I should change or do what I needed to do, and I just didn't get the right answer. And I said to her look, just tell me. And she did so. I did what she said and it made a massive difference and I thought, right, this person really knows, she's been on that journey herself, she's seen and supported other people who have had similar circumstances or similar things happen. And she doesn't criticize, she does give good, constructive feedback. I'm a bit sensitive and I was able to actually take that feedback and not feel like I'd done something wrong or that I was in trouble or any of those sorts of things, and that made a really big difference for me because I thought, well, maybe I didn't do that very well, but what was the lesson? What do I need to change?

Jenny Cole:

And, honestly, it's something I have to do constantly. One of the things that I love about you is people listening to this podcast are going to hear a lot of people that sound super confident and who really sound like they've got their shit together and who are going to tell fabulous stories about their leadership journey and it feels sometimes like there's no self-doubt in there. But you're really honest about the fact that you have constant self-doubt and confidence issues. Talk to us about how that shows up for you and what it is that you do on a daily basis to get over it.

Vanessa Buemi:

It's kind of funny because the people who know me well like you know me quite well and I am pretty honest they say to me you were fabulous when you were up there speaking. You look so confident, you know what you're talking about. And I'm like, oh my God, I felt so sick on the inside or I felt like I left my body and I was watching this person do all this stuff and I just hope the words were coming out properly. And they're always saying to me they do you sound like you know what you're on about? And I'm like why? It's always weird to me that people see the complete opposite of what I feel and I don't actually know how that happens.

Vanessa Buemi:

Even with this podcast, I started feeling a little bit like oh my God, and then I thought, well, I'll just do it, and I think that might be the way that I overcome some of those things.

Vanessa Buemi:

And once I get going, it's probably a bit hard to shut me up, but it's usually because I'm having a good conversation with someone and it's a good sort of meaty conversation and it's something that I will always return to. So if I'm having a day or an issue or I'm feeling something will remember those conversations, and then I sort of pick myself up and get back on with it in terms of like, maybe a flow chart or a step-by-step guide of what do I do, or any of that. No, I have no clue. I just keep going every day. I just try and try and try, and the biggest thing for me is not being so hard on myself. That's the thing I have to learn and what I'm trying to not stew over things so much. So, instead of having things going around and around in your mind and I should have done this and I should have said that, and blah, blah, I just go.

Jenny Cole:

Okay, it is what it is, get on with it yeah, and I think you do exactly what I encourage people to do, which is just take action, just do it, and then, once you get going, that anxiety and fear leaves you. It's the minute you start to think about it again that it all comes back up again.

Vanessa Buemi:

Yeah, and if I start thinking about something then I forget as well. I do have terrible brain fog as well, like menopause my word it's not your friend at all Menopause, autoimmune conditions, fibromyalgia, just brain fog everywhere. So sometimes it's amazing that I even know what I'm saying.

Jenny Cole:

But I just think it's phenomenal what you managed to do in a day. And I also know that in one of the schools that you're in you had a very difficult to staff school and you had a very recalcitrant, difficult, challenging team. And for those kind of empathetic, compassionate people, people that can sometimes be really challenging when you just want everybody to get along and do the right thing Can you talk us through that scenario and kind of how you got out the other side of that? Any tips and advice for dealing with difficult people?

Vanessa Buemi:

Yeah, that was a very, very long process and I think when I first encountered the team that you're talking about, I would say 80% of that team were pretty much like I'm not doing anything. You say this is the way I work and that's that. And I gave myself time to sit back and watch and to learn and to see what was happening as a group and then work with them individually to sort of nut out who these people are, how they work, what's their learning style, what's their teaching style, that sort of thing, I think. Also, I'm not afraid to have conversations with people. I don't like confrontation and if I have to have a difficult conversation with someone, I do get quite nervous and worried about it. But I will have my notes there and I just try and stick to a few points and be firm and clear each time. I always let people tell me how they're feeling and what can I do to help them, and that seems to have been the approach that worked the best for me. I would just speak to people in the same quiet time that I've got. Apparently, I'm quiet and patient and people see me as quite patient and that they are heard and they can say what they want to say to me and know that it's okay to say that, and from there I've managed to work out what that person needs.

Vanessa Buemi:

So I actually did attack the problem on an individual basis, which then made the group sort of come on board and I think I got it down to four really tough people and then, one by one, they all just sort of were like they just went no, she says the same thing all the time. She doesn't change her mind, she doesn't back down, and I was always fair with everyone, concise, clear. What do they need? What do you want from me? How can I help you? And I always tried to do that.

Vanessa Buemi:

And one of the most difficult people I don't know what happened. I was like what's happened to you? Because she just went oh, I think you're fabulous and you're just so fair and you listen. And she said all of these things back to me and I thought, wow, I didn't think I had any effect on you at all.

Vanessa Buemi:

But she also said to me that some of the students had spoken to her about me and how I was like that with them as well and it helped them feel seen, because the school I was in, the kids were very individual kids with lots and lots of different needs. So almost working with students on an individual education plan, every single student in this school. So you had to be prepared to put that time in for the students and also for the teachers who were dealing with those students, and not just one student in the class, but a whole class of many different personalities and it's you know it's hard work, absolutely, and that real human-centred approach that you have, which is get to know people, make sure they're seen, find out what they need, and that builds that trust and sort of bond.

Jenny Cole:

But the other thing that I know that you do, that I've always found kind of really interesting, is that often with people who are very people centered, they're not very good with process but you are very good with process. You always bring everybody back to the. You know, if there is an established process, bringing them back to the process or establishing your own. And I see you smiling. Do you agree with me?

Vanessa Buemi:

I was just thinking about, you know, being in meetings where I'm like what's the point of this meeting? Just, you know, come on now, come back, come back, let's do what we're here to do. I've heard myself say that quite a few times, but, yeah, I think, particularly in the most recent school I've been in, which I've been working at that school for eight years it's like being in the classroom when you've got to be ready for anything and you can't waste time. You've just got to be able to deal with what needs to be dealt with. Have a plan, how's it going to support all the people that need the support? Who does what? And then, collectively, we have a certain approach towards something.

Vanessa Buemi:

And I think I always like to challenge myself and I don't change for change sake, but I can see where change needs to happen and I'm not quiet about it. And I think that sort of comes back to me asking questions that kid myself in the classroom, saying, well, but what about this? I don't understand this. Could we try this instead? And I think that's how that process has come about. And also, I need to sort of know for myself what's next, what's next, what's next and what is expected of me in particular with what is expected of me. I don't like surprises much, where people just say have you done this, have you done that? I like to know that it's coming up and I sort of prepare for it, which is probably why I'm process driven, because I don't like getting caught out having not done something, and I think that's where I feel like I'll be in trouble if I get caught out.

Jenny Cole:

Yes.

Vanessa Buemi:

That's a bit of a childhood thing and that can actually be something that really just sits on your shoulder constantly and it can contribute to your own decline in some cases, and so I'm sort of having to say leave me alone, everything's okay, get on with it. It's always about moving forward. Just because stuff needs to be done, like you said at the beginning, I do care for three adults. I won't say in my spare time because there isn't any spare time, and that's probably why, as well, it's like right now I need to be here, this person needs to go to this doctor, this student needs this, you know, this employer needs this, and it's all just like I have to know. My wife says to me you always just have to know. I'm like, yes, but sometimes it's not always good, because sometimes there's things where you won't know and you will never know, especially if it's got to do with people and someone might've said something about you or something's come back to you and you think, well, why is that happening? And sometimes you never get an answer.

Jenny Cole:

Yes.

Vanessa Buemi:

That is really tough. I find that really hard.

Jenny Cole:

I talk a lot about. Strengths can be your superpower, but overplayed, they can be a weakness. So curiosity is awesome. Constant questioning why, why, why, why, why, why is that happening is not always fantastic, but what I heard was that your being prepared, having a process, keeps you safe, like stops you being anxious and I think it's the same for staff. The more we can bring people back to just the process or these are the rules, this is the process, this is how we work. It just means we're not second guessing what that is. We just know what's expected of us, just like our kids in our classrooms. They like to know what the rules are.

Vanessa Buemi:

That's right. And even just down to what is my job, what do I have to do first or what do I have to think about? Because I am very easily overwhelmed, because I have like a domino brain. It's like, well, if this happens and that happens, and I'm always at the end of the dominoes when they've all fallen over and really we're at the beginning that can be detrimental. But it can also, I think, in my case, give you some foresight as well into the big picture.

Vanessa Buemi:

I think that has really come through in my leadership journey. I do see the bigger picture and I think it might also be because I have tried and done lots of things. So I did lots of things before. I was a teacher and also being a visual artist as well. You have an idea in your mind about how something's going to look and you get it all planned and whatever, and you start making it or painting it or whatever, and it doesn't look like that and you're like I would just go, it's not working. But then I had to go what is working and then go back into it and then I used to call them my happy accidents.

Vanessa Buemi:

Ah yeah, I haven't said that for such a long time. I always thought, being a teacher, I would have time to be an artist as well. Like no, you know, you finish school at three o'clock. Yeah, what a joke.

Jenny Cole:

A bit like your art. Your leadership journey has been a bit of a happy accident too. You've ended up in a role that's super suited to you, I think I think that's because of me and my big mouth as well. A role you kind of created, because you banged on the table and said this needs to exist. Someone said well, you do it, I did.

Vanessa Buemi:

I went to some important people and I said look, listen, this is what's happening for me and for the students that I work with, and I'm sure it's happening for other people. And it sort of escalated and went well, you go off and find out if it's happening to everybody. And the same sorts of issues I was experiencing were happening for people in both the South and the North Metro regional areas and the regional country areas as well. So by me saying this one thing, it snowballed into this have this forum, have this forum, get these people. What are their concerns? How are they managing things? And it's starting to unite VET a bit more. Instead of us all having to work in isolation, we can sort of say oh, you've tried this, Could we send you some of our kids to the school and we'll take some of yours, or whatever.

Vanessa Buemi:

Finding new ways to have good outcomes for students, no matter who they are, where they're from, how much money they've got, what school they go to. Everyone deserves to have that opportunity, and I think that's what I'm really passionate about is being an advocate for people and to see within them what they have to offer, Not what's wrong or what's lacking, but okay, you might notice that a student might be dyslexic or might not do so well in the classroom, but then you see them somewhere else and they excel. You're like well, let's go with that and see how we can evolve your journey. That is what I'm doing at the moment trying to do that again and build groups of people and bring people together from TAFEs and industry and disability sectors, things like that so that we can all work together with our collective experience and knowledge and try and change education for students so that it works for them and, in turn, works for industry.

Vanessa Buemi:

I've been doing quite a bit with the industry and saying this is what we've got. What do you need? Let's meet somewhere in the middle. How can we work together? And it feels like it's really going to take off this year. I've had six months last year of really sort of testing the waters and going and meeting everyone, but it's really got to crack on now. Fantastic.

Jenny Cole:

And I love it Again. It's such a social justice issue. Traditional school doesn't suit everybody. Yet these people have skills and abilities and ways of contributing if we can only connect them and, as you know, working with refugees and migrants or those who are marginalised for whatever reason poverty and so forth they just don't have the connections and it requires someone like you and people who are school-based to make some of those connections and so they can fly. I think it's brilliant.

Vanessa Buemi:

I think so too, and it's like in the role that I'm in now.

Vanessa Buemi:

I'm in education, but I'm also attached to industry and I'm also attached to people who work in the disability sector, the justice sector, all of those things For me recognising that there's a lot of students now that school as it is right now doesn't suit everybody, and these students either fall through the cracks or they end up in the justice system, or they end up referred the justice system, or they end up referred to participation or engagement. And I'm thinking well, they just need something different, and why can't that something different happen in school in that time, so that their learning is relevant to them? I'm not saying that the current education is not relevant, but there's ways that these students need to be able to engage with learning that make that difference. And I think all the people are there, we're all there, we're all doing our own jobs in different areas, with different buckets of funding or whatever, but all for the same purpose. So I'm like, well, let's look at the school situation and see if we can bring all of that into the school system to help.

Jenny Cole:

There's a couple of things that are really impressive there your passion, which is why you said in your bio to me that you cry at people's graduations because you're so proud of the ones that you get. Yeah, I cry too. But the other thing that's really impressive and it's been impressive all the way through this podcast is your big picture strategic overview. I can see all the dominoes, all the pieces, but then, your ability to put those pieces together.

Jenny Cole:

So it really makes a difference for kids. So from them and from me, thank you for that.

Vanessa Buemi:

Thank you. Well, I hope I get there. I've got this year to do that and then we will see what happens next year, whether I'll be moving on to something different or making something else happen in this space. I am quite fortunate to be in this role and, like you said, my leadership journey has been a bit like happy accidents A lot of the time.

Vanessa Buemi:

I think the first time I became a level three was because the current level three had a permanent illness and had to decide not to work anymore. And the principal was like well, what am I going to do? And I said I've got the experience, I'll do it. And she was like okay, and then that's sort of how I got into the vet role as well. Their vet coordinator went on long service leave and not one person would put their hand up to do it because they were like, yep, no. And I went, I'll do it. And the principal was a bit worried and she said are you sure? And I'm like no one else wants to give me a go.

Vanessa Buemi:

And it went from there. It was pretty much much like there's something happening here. Am I brave enough to say give me a go and what can I learn from it, and that has happened all the way through, even when I went and spoke to the important people. That was nerve-wracking and scary and I didn't actually think anything would happen except me go and have my little chat and then that would be that. But it just snowballed into massive progress. That is now sort of starting to go out and reach all the different areas, which is great, I think. Now we're starting to speak the same language. A lot of people were already speaking it, but not loudly, yeah, a little bit silent, and now we're all going no, hang on, this needs to change, so we'll see if it does.

Jenny Cole:

That's beautiful do you have any final bits of advice or wisdom for those who might be, you know, still in a classroom or just starting their leadership journey? Anything you want to, oh well yeah.

Vanessa Buemi:

So if people are sort of in the classroom and maybe thinking that they might like to try something different, I think from my experience, when an opportunity arises, whether it's advertised as an internal position or somewhere else, have a go. I used to sort of say I'm not going to apply for that job because I'll never get it To shut the door before I even gave myself a chance, and one of the biggest things I had to learn was how to apply for jobs and be rejected multiple times, which was very disheartening. But if I didn't do it, I wasn't learning anything. And then eventually something did change and I did get to go somewhere else and I learned lots of other things which I then brought back. So that is one of the ways I think you can sort of dip your toe and if you're not, you can test it, and if you're not sure you can be back in the classroom.

Vanessa Buemi:

And it's a bit like I say to the students who do workplace learning you think you want to be a hairdresser? Well, let's get you in a salon and they think they're going to be cutting people's hair and coloring it and everything. And I'm like, no, you're going to be making cups of tea washing and folding the laundry, and if they do that and they hate it, I say that's great. Now you know that you don't want to do that, but then if they do love it and they're willing to persist through those things that they think are not hairdressing, then they're on their way and they're on their journey and I think that works for everyone. It certainly worked for me Also. Looking at your list of questions, there there was something about the best or worst advice I ever got.

Jenny Cole:

Yes, happy to hear that.

Vanessa Buemi:

My most recent advice which did come from Karen Reid, which she's probably been saying to me for years now is learn to delegate. She said you can't be everywhere all the time for everyone, and I used to think well, me making myself available to people would mean that they have that time with me and tell me what they need. But after a while, when you're in a role like I'm in now, it's very difficult. You spread yourself quite thin. So now I need to learn how to engage people who can be mentors to these other people who are maybe new in the vet role. So that's what I'm working on now. So that's part of learning how to delegate, but it would also be learning about managing a team of people who are very experienced as well Sort of like a twofold thing there.

Vanessa Buemi:

The other thing that has been the most important piece of advice is to put everything in writing.

Vanessa Buemi:

That was very important when you spoke about the difficult team that I had. Many times, the things that I had put in writing, even if it was just in my diary, I've been able to go well actually, and refer back to something. Even just putting things in writing helps yourself to go back and refresh your memory, because you're doing things so quickly all the time. It's one thing after the other, after the other, and you do it and it's dealt with, but you might have to return to it. So if it's in writing, you can go oh yeah, that's right, and get back on track. So it works in two ways, and I think this is probably my own advice to myself is not to stew over things, not to go oh, that was terrible, I did that. Oh, did I say the wrong thing? Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, because I just go down, down, down and then I've got to bring myself back again. Sometimes, when that happens, it needs to happen and you just purge it all and then you get back on with it.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, yeah, but you don't want to unpack and live there as they say, it's okay to you know to drop your bundle occasionally, but you know, pick it back up and get on with it. It's a waste of good energy, isn't it?

Vanessa Buemi:

it's such good advice to not stew on things. We don't have time and we don't have energy, so don't waste it on beating yourself up, and I think when you get older as well once you go over the 50 mark, you're sort of like you know, I don't have time for this sort of thing anymore, and when you're a carer for people who are older than you, you go. That's the future. There's things I need to change now. So I think I'm very much in that spot. Right now. It's like there's things I need to change. I'm getting older myself. There's things that you can't do anymore. You know, bending down to pick something up off of the floor is that's hard work.

Jenny Cole:

Change, just change and adapt, and don't be hard on yourself about it and the one thing that I want everybody to know about ness is that not only is she a wonder woman, but she has a fairly impressive collection of wonder women memorabilia.

Vanessa Buemi:

I'll tell you something that's here.

Jenny Cole:

This is my wonder woman toolbox oh, excellent, back of it, yay, gorgeous.

Vanessa Buemi:

My toolbox. It has screwdrivers and WD-40 in it. Oh, that's hilarious.

Jenny Cole:

So thank you very much for joining me, ness. I am going to put Ness's LinkedIn profile on the show notes and I'm sure if you've got any questions about vet or you know accidents what do we call them Happy accidents She'd love to talk to you about that. Anything about vet, anything about managing difficult people. She's very approachable and a big shout out to Dr Karen Reid, who you mentioned a couple of times, but I have adored from afar and occasionally close up to in my career, so hi.

Jenny Cole:

Karen, me too Me too, she's a bit shy. She's very shy and very humble, but an amazing leader in education.

Vanessa Buemi:

Amazing leader, absolutely brilliant, brilliant leader.

Jenny Cole:

And I also need to remind everybody if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear others, you need to subscribe or follow. You can even rate and review and give me a five-star rating and I'll give it to Ness. That would be awesome.