Positively Leading

S1E15 - Shaping Future Education Through Innovative Leadership and Mentorship with Meredith Roe

• Jenny Cole • Season 1 • Episode 15

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Join us for an enlightening journey with Meredith Roe, an educational technology strategy and innovation consultant. In this podcast, Meredith reflects on the pivotal moments and lessons that have propelled her career from the classroom to the forefront of global educational strategy. Through a series of insightful conversations, she shares the wisdom gained throughout her career—a journey that began with an inspiring mentor and has led her to become a school leader. Her growth from the challenges of middle leader to shaping the future of education shows the importance of mentorship and a balanced pursuit of professional ambition.

Meredith takes us through her once in a lifetime experience of designing an educational campus geared towards integration and digital learning. Her leadership in this ground breaking project, followed by a career shift to digital education at a systemic level, offers a glimpse into the complexities of leading cultural change at a local, system and global level. Meredith emphasizes the significance of strong leadership and the satisfaction of navigating change.

As the episode concludes, Meredith shares her personal approach to networking and the importance of professional development in building a successful career. She explains the art of cultivating relationships over coffee and the strategic use of platforms like LinkedIn in an evolving professional landscape. With an exciting new software development venture on the horizon, Meredith provides insights into the creative process and the collaborative spirit essential for bringing innovative ideas to life. For those eager to expand their leadership horizons, Meredith’s expertise serves as a guiding light, and her willingness to share more on the subject leaves us looking forward to her next appearance on our podcast.


Did you know there is more? You can access every episode, show notes, links and more via my website Positively Beaming.

Jenny Cole:

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Cole, and I'm delighted to have with me today a guest who I met when she was working in school, but then I got to know her when she was a coaching client trying to deal with some challenging issues in the workplace that she was in and also transitioning to a new role, so welcome to the podcast, Meredith Roe.

Meredith Roe:

Thank you so much, Jenny. Very excited to be here talking with you.

Jenny Cole:

Meredith is an ed tech strategy and innovation consultant. She's one of my only guests who's not a current leader in schools, but I really wanted you to listen to Meredith. So she works with organisations across the world and she has worked in education in a variety of ways, from being a nanny in Spain right the way through teaching and leading, and then on a global scale with Microsoft. She's been drawn to a range of roles, as I said, across her career, particularly in regional, rural and remote schools, got a real passion for that and loves the disability sector. She loves connecting with people and when she's not working, she's enjoying time with friends and family.

Jenny Cole:

She's reading and doing Pilates, and a fun fact about Meredith is that she has presented to 3,000 people as part of a forum in Paris. Wow, that's impressive. What I thought would be interesting for the people listening. As I said, you've moved out of education and while I don't want people to see this as a tips and tricks for moving out of education, necessarily, I thought we might dive deep into the roles that you have done and you talked through the sorts of lessons or the things that you've learned or the reason why you loved those particular roles, and you said, one of your highlights was actually your first teaching role in Albany.

Meredith Roe:

Why was that a highlight? I think first role always exciting. I'm actually from Albany, so the opportunity came up. It actually wasn't by design, but opportunity to go back, be close to family again after being away for university, et cetera. But I had a fantastic head of department and I think it really set me up beautifully for the time that followed that I was in school. So, yeah, he was brilliant. He was such a good role model for me as a teacher but also as a leader, and he was one of the first people to encourage me to extend myself and to learn. So he really did sort of light the flame for me about a love of lifelong learning and the encouragement that he gave me to get on board and learn new things etc was quite staggering.

Meredith Roe:

You know, as a graduate, you've got so many things you're trying to. You know get your head around and and make sure you know you're ready for that lesson. You've written a lesson plan of some description in your head and whatnot, and you know he was. He was so encouraging to you know, making sure that I had opportunities that were going to take me to my next step. So one of those, for example, was um, I remembered getting my canoe instructor's license now, not in a million years, what I have thought, even though I was there doing phys ed, outdoor ed, wasn't really a thing back then, um, but they had a canoeing course, um, that offered the kids.

Meredith Roe:

So, you know, sure enough, he put me forward and he said come on, let's get you, you know, qualified as a canoe instructor. You know, one of those things you don't ever think you'll say in life. So those kind of things. The way that he interacted with students was fantastic. He had such a good relationship with them and that most definitely then influenced the way that I interacted with students. And very respectful as well being in a country school, you've got to teach across multiple learning areas so respectful of the other commitments that I had, things like that. So good balancing acts, as you know, that he role modelled as well.

Jenny Cole:

Very fortunate to have that early in your career. And I'm sure that you've done that for the people that you've worked with in schools, coming up being really conscious of providing that similar kind of role model. When I first met you, you were careers and transition in a very large catholic school. It was a new role and new to you and you were very involved. You know you had more interaction with the senior leadership team. What were the learnings and the highlights from that role?

Meredith Roe:

Well, that was the first role that I had. That then became of many. That was new, so no one in the school had done it before and in fact very few people in the system had a similar role. So this love of lifelong learning that my former head of department had kind of encouraged in me meant that every time I stepped into a new role, my first step was to where can I go and learn? So it's also probably where I started learning the value of networking. So, outside of school, and that network of career education specialists also took me outside of the education industry for the first time and, wow, what an eye opener that was. And so that ability to network and learn from others was one of the key learnings I had. No, there was no online information I could go to. It all had to be learning and talking to people In the school environment itself.

Meredith Roe:

It was my first experience of middle management and therefore working with senior leadership, and because of the nature of the role, with subject selection and curriculum, handbooks et cetera, you probably worked a little more closely, even more so than some of the other heads of department, and so, you know, just learning how to interact with those people in a way that was respectful, professional, but to be able to then advocate for your own learning area as well. And probably my biggest issue at that time was wanting to do everything yesterday. So I had grand plans and I must say I got through most of them. I don't think I balanced my you know work-life balance very well, but it certainly, you know, there were some great opportunities there to understand and get that sort of sneak peek into senior leadership, if you like. I also had plenty of challenges in dealing with certain leaders, both senior and middle leadership, and learning actually how to work alongside them in a harmonious way and how to manage my own emotions around.

Meredith Roe:

Um, you know things that came out of that as well. So it was kind of like a leadership 101 in a very short period of time Set me up beautifully. Then, you know, for other roles that came as well. It's also the first time that I went back to study. So I went back and did that career development post-grad course and again opened up a whole new world of contacts and networks, some of which I'm still in contact with these as well. But again, that whole lifelong learning thing and I've come. It's that whole lifelong learning thing and I've come to understand that that lifelong learning go out, learn something if you're in a new space is what gives me confidence to move forward, and that need to be able to say, hand on heart, I know what I'm talking about.

Jenny Cole:

What has always impressed me about you. There's two themes that are already evident, which is learn and network, and we'll definitely hear more about that as we go through. But it's not I'm going to put my head down, open a book and learn. You know what's in front of me. It's like I'm going to find out what else is out there in the world and learn about. You know. Innovate learning, not necessarily just textbook sort of learning, not necessarily just textbook sort of learning.

Meredith Roe:

Yeah, absolutely. I never have been a fan of the word expert, but I always wanted to be knowledgeable, and so my thought was to be knowledgeable. I've got to go and talk to other people who have done it before me, and, whether that's a particular aspect or the whole role, there's always someone out there that is very happy to lend time and to chat to you about those particular things and to be able to then come back and know again, hand on heart, what I'm doing for this school, I know is best practice, and that was really that was an important value to me as I move forward.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, and this is about the point where we started a coaching relationship and that was because you were transitioning into another new role as assistant deputy and that was quite a big transition. Do you want to explain what that was all about?

Meredith Roe:

Yeah. So it was a bit of a combination of a personal desire for change and a professional desire for change. So I took a role in a town called Geraldton, about five hours north of Perth, and my role so I was an assistant deputy, but my role again hadn't been done before, and so I was tasked with setting up their new campus in Carnarvon. So for those who don't know where that is, that's about nine hours north of Perth and from Geraldton about five hours north. So I spent my time based in Geraldton but travelling backwards and forwards a number of times to Carnarvon to set up every aspect of that campus, from enrolments to marketing, to community, to community relations, to the curriculum, to employing teachers. I did everything and I had never done anything like that before.

Meredith Roe:

So such a steep learning curve, but for me probably what the appeal was was what it meant for the local community. So having that new campus open in Carnarvon meant that students didn't have to go to boarding school. So there was a school there already that only went to year 10. So the campus we opened was year 11 and 12. It meant that families could stay together. They didn't have to go to boarding school.

Meredith Roe:

And in a small town like Carnarvon. When families can stay together, it also has positive economic impact on the community, so mum and dad don't have to close up their business and move to Perth or sell a kidney to get to send their child to school etc. So for me and as someone from a country town, there was a really strong value proposition for the work that I was doing in that space and I was really fortunate. I had amazing people around me I could call on for support. But yes, there were times when you do that two o'clock in the morning wake and think, oh, I haven't thought of that, we'll need to organise fire extinguishers for each classroom. You know again, things that I thought I'd never be thinking of or saying ever.

Jenny Cole:

And it's a really good example of um. You think very strategically, like you had a very clear picture, you and the and the principle that your principles, you were working with very clear picture of what it could be, but then you actually had to map it out and go right down to the fire extinguishers. Is that the kind of stuff that you enjoy doing, that kind of big picture, the detail stuff?

Meredith Roe:

Absolutely. You know me well. I absolutely love it. I love the fact, too, that I can be given this is broadly what we want and then I'm left to go and do it, knowing I can go back and you know this person or this person, I can hit up for that support.

Meredith Roe:

I think it's just a strange way that my brain works and I can sort of I'm quite good at mapping out process as well in terms of then being able to pick up what we do need to do or haven't done, perhaps what we need to consider, et cetera. So I do I see that kind of thing as a real challenge and I do thrive on that kind of challenge and I think as well it's probably one of the early opportunities I had around innovation. So I had the opportunity, through my brief, to be innovative in the way that this campus was set up. The principal did not want, for example, desks in rows, etc. And was quite open to bringing the community in to be a part of the curriculum, making sure the kids have the opportunity to be visible in the community, all those kind of things. So when you get that kind of opportunity, when you're someone who loves innovation, you know you kind of rub your hands together and say let me at it for sure.

Jenny Cole:

And I remember the frustrating conversations when even that principal who gave you that amazing brief couldn't see it as big picture as you could and wanted to tie you down to less innovative things. But it was such an amazing opportunity to do that and to have full rein on that. What's the upshot? How is that? Is that campus still working? Is that still operating?

Meredith Roe:

So in in a way, I guess you could classify it as really successful, because in the end, after three years, it got handed to the current k to 10 school and they were able then to take that on where they hadn't previously been able to. So I think that when, um, you know, you get a project to a point where you can hand it over to a local entity and step back, I classify that as successful.

Meredith Roe:

And it's absolutely going gangbusters today under that new arrangement. So, yeah, look fantastic, really exciting opportunity and I keep thinking about the different opportunities I've had and that was certainly one of the highlights and, yeah, certainly one of those opportunities to grab with both hands.

Jenny Cole:

And part of that was trying to do it differently and it involved some virtual learning, and that then meant that you moved into a system level job where virtual learning and technology were really what you were working on. Do you want to explain that for the people listening?

Meredith Roe:

Sure. So anyone who's got a secondary education background will understand that in year 11 and 12, which is what that Carnarvon campus was you have to have specialist teachers for different subjects, and to do that in a tiny little campus just isn't economically viable. So I have this very clear recollection of a meeting with the principal and the principal's advisor from the head office saying we'll back you for the first year with you know finance and whatnot to make that happen, but after that you're going to have to come up with another solution on how you're going to educate the kids. And I remember thinking, oh, okay, good, and suddenly my brain started whirring and thinking what have I signed up for?

Meredith Roe:

So, yes, in the end we looked at options that were existing for online learning and decided that, again with a lot of research, that we could probably look at doing that in a more contemporary model and aligned to innovation. So we did start that as part of that campus and then I was offered the opportunity to move to head office and the school actually handed that online learning model over to head office and that, at the time, was a really exciting time to be joining head office. It was at a time when there was a major digital transformation going on called Leading Lights, and as part of that, the leadership of that team had brought across from the US a couple of fantastic people who'd been working at Microsoft and different other big sort of ed tech companies with global experience. So I got to work alongside, for the first time ever, people who had global experience and it was amazing the learning, the perspectives you know know, and there was so much fun as well. We used to have cultural, cultural Tuesdays where we'd explain what things like not happy Jan meant, um, etc. And the leadership. So I was under um.

Meredith Roe:

I was being line managed by one lady, kathy Kavanagh, who had come across from the US and her leadership was out of this world. I have this clear memory of her one day sitting down with me and saying my job is to remove the barriers so you can get on and do your job, and she was true to her word. That's exactly what she did, and this was, if you remember, pre-covid. So learning was a bit of a poor cousin to face-to-face learning. So there was a lot of cultural change that had to happen across the system. There was a lot of concerns about quality you know this was an untested model, et cetera, et cetera.

Meredith Roe:

So I guess the barrier removing that Cathy did for me meant we could be successful in a very short period of time. So we started. Our first enrolments was 2018 and we had 80 students from across WA in that system, and then, by the time I'd left, I think, we were at 300 students. We tripled the number of courses, et cetera. So that was an amazing time, an amazing, amazing opportunity. I look back on that with such fondness, not only for, again, that values perspective of you know, allowing both metro and country students to be able to have greater choice in what they were studying, but to give an alternate model and, as we know, post-covid that's become a really valuable thing.

Meredith Roe:

I loved the challenge of having to lead a team of remote teachers and the learning around that was so steep and such different considerations that had to be implemented, as compared, obviously, to managing a group of staff in a school. So, yeah, it was fascinating from a leadership perspective, fascinating just even from a program approach. So how are we going to upskill these teachers? How are we going to make sure this is sustainable? How are we going to make sure that we don't burn our teachers out? How are we going to make sure this program grows every year? How are we going to get the message out? That was probably one of the fantastic things about my opportunity I had there was I was encouraged to travel internationally to present at conferences and again that whole other new world of networks and contacts, and I just absolutely lapped that up. I absolutely loved that part of my role. I mean everyone else but um, yeah travel to Paris, but then but?

Jenny Cole:

but then speaking in front of thousands of people, not everybody loves that true, I was horribly nervous on that occasion.

Meredith Roe:

But, um, yeah, look, you know, being able to share in front of people from a country where online learning was very well established and have people come up to you at the end and say I can't believe you're so new to this and you've got it down pat already. We'd love to come out and visit you, we'd love to stay in contact with you. We've got a lot to learn from you. You know that was really affirming because we didn't have that opportunity back in Australia, because the online learning world was still so new. So I found that really, that charged my batteries, so I was fortunate, went across every year and I bought back innovation from them, but also came back really charged and ready to implement the things that I'd learnt as well. And then, in the final year that we went, the system gave me permission to take a group of teachers with me.

Meredith Roe:

And I loved that opportunity to then share with them the experiences that I'd had. And so we went to a conference and they all presented. So for a lot of them it was the first time presenting internationally.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah.

Meredith Roe:

You know, so exciting.

Meredith Roe:

And then we had a visit to Microsoft at Redmond and because through the Leading Lights Project we had been so well connected and were influencing the teachers I was working with, were influencing the tools that every teacher is using today in the Microsoft suite, and so for them to be able to go and meet the people that we'd been, you know, in contact with and just to be, you know, present on the campus like it's really impressive. So again, you know, present on the campus, like it's really impressive. So again, you know a great way to keep your teachers charged up. I appreciate it's not possible for many, but you know I was so grateful that we got to take a group of teachers and they had that extra experience they could come back and share with others.

Jenny Cole:

As I was listening to you talk, it just it feels well then. It was revolutionary, but it was almost well. It was ahead of its time, but just in time, because then the pandemic hit and what Catholic Ed in Western Australia discovered was they were ready because you had been using the tools, you'd been promoting the tools. People knew about teams. You'd had things like webinar weeks and so forth. So on a on a, on a lower level, lower level and more grassroots level, people could then launch into this more remote style of teaching because it was familiar to them. Um, such such an amazing program and I think what I heard you say about Kathy was, as a leader, her job was to remove the bottlenecks. So if she's the thing that's between you and what needs to be done, or if she hasn't skilled you up enough, then she hasn't done her job. Talk to me a little bit. I know that she's still a mentor and friend of yours. What else did she teach you?

Meredith Roe:

still a mentor and friend of yours. What else did she teach you? Um, she gave me confidence to try things that would never have entered my realm. So one example is Kathy is an incredible writer and researcher and she said to me one day I think we should write an article for this journal and we'll get it published. I kind of felt like I back to, I'm just a farm kid from Wellstead, I don't know, but she, you know, she guided me through the process. We wrote it together and, you know, it got published. So those kind of opportunities were amazing.

Meredith Roe:

She is one of the few people in the world I would happily call an expert and she was. She was an online learning expert from the US and actually, funny story, when Cathy first started at SEWA, my principal at the time said there's an online learning expert who has started at SEWA. This is the early days of us developing it. While I was still in school, I want you to go and meet this expert in online learning and in my head I was like, oh yeah, another expert, you know. Anyway, meta was blown away by it and very quickly realized she actually is an expert, and I still have a clear picture of me sitting in my car after our meeting me, phoning my principal and going. She is an expert. She's amazing.

Meredith Roe:

Great partnership, um yeah, her knowledge and expertise and guidance, particularly when we were looking at scaling. When I first started um in the in the head office at sewa and this is typical for anyone who comes from a school to a head office role you don't get taught how to lead at a system level. You you kind of pick it up along the way. So that was probably one of the other great gifts that Cathy gave me was she helped me understand that one of the most important things about leading at system level is scalability. Whatever you do, is it repeatable, is it scalable, is it sustainable? And I have taken that lesson with me right throughout life since and whatnot. So I feel very fortunate to have had that system-level leadership guidance, because I know many people who go into a similar situation in many different education organisations across Australia. You know would have had that same how do I lead at system level?

Jenny Cole:

and you know there's no course that helps you do that. No, no, there isn't. And there are university, there's MBAs and various other things that you can do, but each system is slightly different.

Jenny Cole:

And how do I apply that? Yeah, I'm just letting people know. If there's noise in the background, it's because my puppy, charlie, is helping us record this podcast. Today. You've talked about a number of role models and key people. I want to just go back to the idea of so. You've kept in touch with most of those people, but I want to talk a little bit about networks. You're an amazing person at connecting people. You know to people that they need to talk to, and you can only do that because your networks are strong. How do you actively build and maintain your networks?

Meredith Roe:

oh, good question. I think a lot of it. I don't actually give a lot of thought to it. It for me now sort of a just an automatic thing that I do. I have a desire to help others. It's what drives me in everything I do. So if I hear of someone, you know they're telling me about an issue or a challenge they've got and I've got a solution that might help them. Well then I want to be able to do that.

Meredith Roe:

So, in terms of how I build my networks, the changes I've had in the roles have necessitated me putting myself out and going and meeting people, and probably one of the best strategies I've had is to have coffee catch-ups. So I asked for a recommendation. I'm looking for someone to do this. I'll contact them, explain who I am, can I take you for a coffee? And you'll have a chat, ask questions, and I always ask at the end of that is there anyone you think I should connect with next? And so whoever they recommend, I always meet up with them, even if I come away and go.

Meredith Roe:

Yeah, I don't think there was any great value in there for me, but you know it's someone else I now know. So that strategy has worked really well for me, and LinkedIn has been, you know, a great tool for networking as well. So, probably, post-covid, less and less through events, because we've had a period where there are no or limited number of face-to-face events. But you know, know they're picking up again and and those kind of things are always great. And presenting at conferences is also a very good way to increase your networks. All you have to do is, you know, stand up, present, it gets put on social media and half the work is done for you. People reach out to you, you know, and deep dive, you'll find other connections through them as well.

Jenny Cole:

I love the way that you use LinkedIn, so you ask for things. Does anyone know anyone who's done such and such? Or and you've done this for me lots of times you've sent me an email or through LinkedIn saying you need to read this article or you need to contact this person, or this person would be great for whatever it is that I'm doing, and so it's a two-way street. Sometimes, when we talk about networking, it's like like I have to turn up to an event and meet people, but actually it's more about what you can give, and it's a reciprocal kind of arrangement. The same with mentors and so forth is you know you give back.

Jenny Cole:

I'm sure Cathy has got as much from you as you've gotten from her. Well, maybe not as much, but you know what I mean her well, maybe not as much, but you know what I mean. The other thing that, um, that you put on your information for me to have a look at is the. The thing that was useful in your career is been professional coaching to work through issues and to improve your self-awareness. Now I'm your coach, but you've had mentoring and coaching from other people as well. What do you get out of coaching?

Meredith Roe:

Clarity, 100% clarity.

Meredith Roe:

So I'm a bit of a ruminator, so I will, well, on things, I will turn them over in my head, create a narrative at times.

Meredith Roe:

That's necessarily helpful or healthy, and so that opportunity to come and explain an issue to someone like yourself is so valuable because it provides clarity and it in a way that gets rid of all the muck around the narrative I've created or the emotion I'm carrying with that decision or things like that. It's an outsider's perspective as well. When you're knee deep in an issue certainly in my case, you can lose perspective. So someone who isn't working with you but knows you well can go well, actually, have you thought about this? And you're like, oh okay, no, I hadn't. So that perspective and, in a way, also being held accountable for how you manage that issue as well. So I would find that I ever had a coaching session or a conversation with a mentor where I did nothing. As a result of that, there was always action afterwards to resolve it. So, um, I think in a way, it holds you accountable for resolving whatever the issue is.

Jenny Cole:

And sometimes we all feel, when we're talking to our coach or our therapist or our mentor, that we're the only person in the world that is having this problem. And sometimes just by saying it out loud you make you realize how ridiculous the problem is and how much you've blown it out of proportion. So that clarity and the perspective is so valuable. You've moved on from Microsoft. You now work for yourself in your own company and do some incredible things, both nationally and globally. What's exciting you at the moment in the work that you're doing?

Meredith Roe:

So another first for me. I have designed a piece of software that, in my mind anyway, is going to be a real game changer for educators and leaders. So you know, again, never did, I think I'd say that, but it's been a ball, and I've been very fortunate to have someone guiding me and mentoring me through that process a former colleague. So and I'm not a, I don't have a deep technical background I've got enough. I say I've got enough to be dangerous. So the poor developers that I've been working with that are making my ideas come to light.

Meredith Roe:

You know, I kind of say, well, I just need it to do that. Surely that is possible. And they're like, well, actually that's not quite. You know, you've forgotten a, b and c. And I'm like, oh well, surely you can't just go away. Yeah, enough technical knowledge to be to be dangerous. So that that's been amazing. And being able that work. Actually I started when I was at microsoft in the global education team, so being able to see that through has been really exciting as well. And when you're on a call with a school leader or a system leader and you see them light up, when you show them what you've designed, like that's real affirmation and that's that's really exciting. So, yes, that's about to be well, that has been launched and is being put into schools. Who are interested as we speak.

Jenny Cole:

So yeah, oh, so exciting, and maybe we'll get you back to talk a bit more about that when it's a little bit more public, and also to get you back to talk about the fact that you are establishing a foundation for adults with disabilities around access to equitable work. And did I get that right? You did. Is that what it's about? You did.

Meredith Roe:

Yes, yes, absolutely. That is some exciting work I'm doing, I like to say in my spare time, but you know, when you see such a golden opportunity to make an impact, then you make it happen. So, yes, down the track. I would absolutely love to talk about that. For sure, there's lots of exciting things happening in that space Brilliant.

Jenny Cole:

You for sure. There's lots, lots of exciting things happening in that space. Brilliant, you've given us plenty to think about you. As I said, you're always such a big picture thinker and it seems like someone gives you a challenge and you're like yep, if you've got other advice for new or aspiring leaders in education, what would you? What would you?

Meredith Roe:

Learn how to network and make it happen. Find time to make networking happen and networking beyond education. That was probably the real game changer for me. It made me realise that the problems we have in education exist in other industries and we are fortunate in many ways that other industries aren't. So you know again, perspective take every opportunity you get offered, even if you think you've got no time to do it or you don't know how to do it. Find a way because you know it just leads to even more amazing opportunities. So that that'd probably be my two key things networking and opportunities.

Jenny Cole:

Grab them yeah, and I'm just going to piggyback on on both of those and say read outside education literature. By the time you're moving into a leadership role, the need for that deep pedagogical sort of content learning has gone and you're sure there's some great reading about educational leadership. But the work, the reading that I've done around leadership more broadly, but also the networking I've done with business people, has made me really realize that we can get a little bit narrow and a bit shallow in education. So don't be afraid to put your head up and see what else is out there. So thank you, Meredith, for sharing your wisdom and your expertise today. In the show notes below I am going to put Meredith's LinkedIn profile and she would very happily link with you. If there's something that you want, you can contact her directly and, as I said, I'm pretty sure we're going to have her back on. So that is all today from Positively Leading. If you liked this episode, please rate and review and follow us so that you will get next week's episode as well.