Positively Leading

S2E11 - Leadership in Early Childhood Education with Amie Fabry

• Jenny Cole • Season 2 • Episode 11

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Today on Positively Leading I sit down with the inspiring Amie Fabry, PhD, Director of Early Childhood at The Learning Future. Amy takes us through her captivating career journey from an early childhood teacher in Western Australia to a leadership powerhouse. She shares her unique experiences at Edith Cowan University, working with the education department, and conducting research for AERO, all of which contributed to her passion for supporting and leading educators. Amie's story is a testament to the importance of adaptability, continuous learning, and the power of professional networks.

Throughout this episode, Amie discusses the critical elements of effective early childhood leadership and sheds light on the often-overlooked separation of kindergarten and pre-primary teachers from the rest of the school community and the profound impact it has on educators and students alike. The discussion dives into the necessity of specialized knowledge, collaboration time, and a deep understanding of policy documents for leaders to truly support educators. Principals facing leadership roles without early childhood expertise is another challenge we explore, emphasizing the need for a well-rounded and informed leadership team.

Finally, we explore Amie's groundbreaking framework, "Lead with Intention," which aims to elevate the status and leadership roles of early childhood educators. This framework fosters a more collaborative and supportive educational environment by recognising their expertise and creating career progression opportunities. Amie also shares her global insights from visits to early childhood education centers in Finland and Denmark, highlighting the importance of community integration and robust support systems. Tune in for a rich conversation filled with practical strategies and inspiring stories to enhance early childhood leadership and education.

Did you know there is more? You can access every episode, show notes, links and more via my website Positively Beaming.

Jenny Cole:

I am so delighted to have with me today's guest, who has been kicking some pretty amazing career goals lately, and I have been watching her from the sidelines cheering on, sometimes loudly and sometimes silently. I'm so proud of what she's been doing. So it is fabulous to have here today Amie Fabry. Welcome, Amie.

Amie Fabry:

Thanks, Jenny, it's lovely to be here with you.

Jenny Cole:

So let me give you a little bit of information. Amie Fabry, PhD, is the Director of Early Childhood at The Learning Future and she's a passionate early childhood educator, facilitator and researcher who's committed to empowering leaders to transform pedagogical practice. She uses a strength-based approach to build the confidence, knowledge and skills of early childhood educators, teachers and leaders so that they can create responsive and trusting cultures in which everyone can thrive. She completed her PhD in pedagogical leadership and is a researcher for AERO. As I said, she is currently the Director of Early Childhood at The Learning Future, building leadership capacity and confidence in early childhood teachers and leaders. That's quite a bio, but probably the best place to start is can you give the people listening a bit of a snapshot about your career and how you got to this place?

Amie Fabry:

Sure, it has been an interesting journey, I have to say. When I think back, never in a million years, when I started out as an early childhood teacher, I thought I would be doing what I'm doing and I guess my default is to say it's probably been a bit of dumb luck. But you know, I think I've just had some I would say doors open and opportunities open, and I've probably just jumped at the chance to try some new things, sometimes probably before I was ready. But essentially my story is I started out as an early childhood teacher working in schools here in Western Australia and at some point I had my first child, which was delightful, but it also meant that I had to give up my job, which was heartbreaking, like truly heartbreaking, because my identity was so wrapped up in being a really good early childhood teacher, which was something I was really passionate about and knew I was good at, and so that kind of left me going now what you know with a not quite two-year-old baby at home wanting to get back into work. I did some study while I was on maternity leave and was really looking to get back into a school, but not really finding the right opportunities, and so this new opportunity presented itself and I was offered work at Edith Cowan University where I had been doing my master's. So I jumped at the chance to do something new because I really wanted to get back in the workforce and I thought, well, if teaching's not presenting itself right now, maybe I'll try something new. I was terrified, I'll be completely honest with you. I went from being in a classroom with four-year-olds to adults and, like I remember my first day walking in and just going, I don't even know how I'm going to get their attention because I'm used to singing and clapping and, you know, having musical instruments. So that really tested me. From there I ended up working for the education department as a policy consultant in the early childhood team, and that was really a choice, I guess.

Amie Fabry:

I was working at ECU for about five or six years and I felt really disconnected to what was happening in our schools and, I guess, because my time as a teacher got cut short, I wanted to have more, I guess, direct involvement with teachers and what was happening in schools and classrooms. So I applied for a job and, you know, was fortunate enough to win that job, and so then I kind of my career took a slightly different turn and I was working alongside educators developing professional learning, which was a new thing for me. Developing professional learning which was a new thing for me but you know, if I think back to my sort of journey, working at the university and teaching adults was a great opportunity. That led itself beautifully to actually developing professional learning for teachers who are working in schools, and I loved doing that work. So I then was offered a job at AERO to work as a researcher in their team for early childhood, which was really interesting, and I did that for a couple of years.

Amie Fabry:

And then when I finished my PhD, I knew that I wanted to do something with what I had found out about leadership in the early years of school, and I didn't have the opportunity at Aero to do anything with my research. But the job that I had had that brought me the most joy was really the professional learning space that I had at the education department. So it kind of led me to explore opportunities in which I could do that now. And so through networking I met Louka Parry, who is the CEO of the Learning Future, and after being brave enough to just ask him how he got into consulting, He offered me a job. So that's kind of how I got here and I love the work that I do now because you know, as you mentioned in my bio, I get to work alongside educators and really help them to understand the important role that they have in our schools and help to build their confidence to lead.

Jenny Cole:

That is beautiful. It certainly wasn't dumb luck. First of all, you're not dumb and second of all, I love the way that you look at your career and you think, okay, this door has closed or this is not where I am at the moment, and so who and what and where might I go? And I remember you and I had a conversation when you were leaving the department about one should I? And I said if that's what you want to do and I'm sure you had those conversations with other people as well just scoping the field, trying to work out what's going on, and that's where networks are so valuable. You don't have to leave education. You can stay within education and there are lots of other roles around.

Jenny Cole:

So thank you for sharing that let's talk about, you're obviously a passionate early childhood educator, but I love that you have focused on something that I don't think many people have focused on, and that is leadership in that sphere. And it dawned on me as I was reading some of the things that you're doing. It's such a space that really needed somebody to look at it. Tell me what you looked at. Tell me what you found out and why is leadership in early childhood important? Why can't just the principal be the leader of the early childhood.

Amie Fabry:

Great question, Jenny, just to give a bit of context as to sort of why this became an area of focus for me, I guess as an early childhood teacher working in schools. It's a hard place to navigate and you know, I think schools across the board are a hard place to navigate, let's be honest. But in the early years we get some particular challenges, particularly around the way we teach and what takes up our time. And I guess, if we think system level in terms of pressure for academic achievement, you know and I understand why that's there. But the challenge for early childhood teachers is that children don't just come to school ready to sit down and absorb information, which is often what teaching looks like. And we in our school system we often forget that there are a whole human being and they still need to be developing their self-identity, their social skills, their emotional skills, even their physical skills. And so I think what happens for our early childhood teachers is they feel this real tension between how do I honour this whole child who, might I add, is on probably a different path to every other child in the classroom, because in those first eight years the most development is happening and brain development is happening, but children develop in their own time. Essentially, and whilst we can certainly do things to intervene and that's really important it's also about a fine balance between nurturing the whole child and really helping them to understand that they are a unique individual who has something to offer the world.

Amie Fabry:

But that sometimes sits in contention with you know all of the programs that have to get you know churned through in a school day or a week, and, I guess, the pressure that comes from all the testing, and you know what we want to see in terms of outcomes in our school system. So it can be really challenging for our early childhood teachers, and so that's kind of why I went into this research wanting to find out more and see what were the possibilities in terms of how we could support our teachers, because we need to support them so that they can support our young learners to have a really strong foundation for learning, but also to enjoy learning and think that they're actually successful learners and capable learners. Foundation for learning, but also to enjoy learning and think that they're actually successful learners and capable learners. So what I also knew from my own experience was that in some schools that I had worked in, we had an early childhood leader, and it may have been a deputy principal, it may have been a teacher who also had time out of the classroom to actually lead us and help us, who also had time out of the classroom to actually lead us and help us, but in other schools I knew they were non-existent. So I was really curious to know more about this role of leadership and what early childhood leaders might be doing that really support educators and really to just get a sense of you know, do we actually have many of them? Are they, you know, these magical unicorns which I suspected, or are they actually a bit more commonplace? So that's kind of what I set out to find out was really what's actually having an impact on our teachers' pedagogy in those earliest years of school? And then, if we actually have early childhood leaders, who are they? But, more importantly, what do they do that actually support their educators? And also, if we don't have them in every school, what are the factors that might actually enable them to be present and have an active role in their school, or what might be getting in the way that's actually stopping us from having early childhood educators?

Amie Fabry:

So that's kind of a bit about what I researched and, I guess.

Amie Fabry:

What I found out was that there was quite a neat correlation between teachers who said they were really struggling to implement what we would describe as early childhood pedagogy, which is fundamentally play-based or to honour the children's agency and their individuality. Teachers who really struggled to do that also said there was no leadership in the school, or there may have been a leader, but they're a leader who either was ineffective or actually not able to help them because perhaps they didn't have time for their role. But I also found the complete opposite. So when teachers said they were well supported, it was because they had a leader in the school who, like specific to early childhood, which was supporting them within a team to actually dive deeply into pedagogy, and they had a direction to work towards and lots of things that come with good leadership which helped them. So it was a clear standout that you know, actually having a presence of early childhood leadership makes such a difference to our teachers, which you know in turn makes a huge difference to our children.

Jenny Cole:

Wow, I mean it feels obvious. It's really nice that the data supports that. And as you were speaking, I'm thinking about a thousand colleagues who say, look, I've got a really great principal, but they actually know nothing about early childhood. And as a special edder, I kind of get that because that used to happen to us. They're really supportive but they know nothing, so they cannot support you because they don't know what the pressures are, they don't know what the particular pedagogies are, and so that can be nice and supportive, but they're not helpful when you have to teach. And this is not one of my questions, but I'm kind of curious. Quite often in schools we find that we have the early childhood and they're off down there in their little group doing their early childhood thing. That used to definitely be the case and I'm wondering why that happens. Is that because they're doing something really different to the rest of the school or because what they're doing doesn't always align? They've kind of taken themselves off and I suppose benefits or drawbacks of that. And have you noticed that in schools?

Amie Fabry:

Yeah, definitely. I think it happens for multiple reasons. I do think sometimes it's a logistical thing, like literally when you think about keeping children safe. You know our four and five-year-olds in kindy and pre-primary often just need to have their own separate playgrounds at a fence. So that can be one like physical reason why we actually sort of distance themselves. Often they work on different timetables and that's often to do with duty and duty of care. So the kindergarten and pre-primary teachers will often stay within the vicinity of that classroom and they'll be taking turns for breaks and supervision during recess and lunch breaks. So again, that might mean that they still stay in that kindergarten pre-primary space. They're not in the staff room, they're not sort of mingling in the bigger school. But I also think it's a pedagogical difference and I think it's a knowledge difference.

Amie Fabry:

You know, I think there's look for some teachers in some schools there's some safety that comes with just being in your space and when people don't understand you and you know, I've experienced this myself that sometimes people don't want to understand you either, which is a huge challenge for everybody, and I think it has it's a huge negative for our children, but also for our educators. And what I've learned through my research and by talking to teachers is sometimes they get freedom, I guess, to do what they want to do and what they believe might be good practice. But when they're disconnected from other colleagues, they have less opportunities to really grow in their own understanding and practice. And again, that often means there isn't a leader who is leading them. They're just kind of free to do what they want because nobody else understands it. So I think that's you know, sometimes that means they can do what they need to do, which can be a positive.

Amie Fabry:

But the downside is they're less connected to the rest of the school and I think that has a flow and effect when we think about how do we actually support children, not just as they transition into school, but through those early years, and often the transition from pre-primary to year one is a huge one because our expectations change significantly. When you go from particularly a play-based environment this nice contained, you know, playground with the fence around it and I know where everything is and all my friends are to just being a free-range chicken in the whole school becomes really overwhelming for our children. So there's definitely some downsides when they're not more connected, but I think that's kind of the main reasons why it happens.

Jenny Cole:

So what does a good early childhood leader know, or have that enables them to support their colleagues, but also inform the school more broadly to connect those together, but also inform the school more broadly to connect those together.

Amie Fabry:

I'm so glad you asked that. First and foremost, they really need to have expertise and I think this is something that we can't take lightly, but I also think it's something that's very easily overlooked in our schools is that early childhood teachers, who either have an early childhood qualification and that could be bachelor or postgrad, or it could be that you know they might be a primary sort of trained teacher but they've done some extensive professional learning in early childhood, the key is really to understanding child development and what that looks like holistically up to the age of eight. But it's also having a really deep understanding of our policy documents and how we can actually implement them in ways that are age appropriate but also contextually appropriate to those children and families. And I think that's what I found is one of the real distinguishing factors between an effective and ineffective early childhood pedagogical leader. And you know, for the reasons that you said before is because if you don't have that knowledge, how do you help educators to really unpack some of the complexities that sit around pedagogy and supporting children where they're at but also meeting some of our you know system expectations and requirements, particularly for the academic outcomes that we want to see.

Amie Fabry:

So what I found is you know, when teachers were saying we either have an early childhood teacher but we don't get support, or sometimes it is actually the principal who takes on that role. And I had principals who said to me you know, I'm taking on that role because of a time and a funding thing, but I have no understanding of early childhood, so they actually can't help educators and they don't understand what it is like in the early years. If you haven't taught young children, it's really hard to know the realities of actually working in a classroom of 20 or 28 five-year-olds. So that's really, really integral is that we have early childhood leaders who have that knowledge and expertise and the other things that really help them to enact that role. Well is having things like time. Again, it sounds like such common sense, but so many of the educators that I work with and the leaders that I work with have no time out of the classroom. So when you are teaching full time and you don't have time to connect with your colleagues, to see what's happening in other classrooms, to even plan a meeting, or you don't even have time to meet with your colleagues, that happens quite a lot. Um, how do you lead? Do you know what I mean? So I think that that's a huge one as well time and um knowledge, um, the other thing that I found that really effective early childhood leaders do, even if they are working at the teacher level, working in the classroom.

Amie Fabry:

They were very inclusive and really focused on trying to build shared understandings and values about the early years. So that included the people in the exec team. So the principal, deputy principals how do we actually bring them in? So they're part of these conversations? Because, again, what would happen in some of the schools that I researched? They might have a really gung ho early childhood leader, but some of the conversations were you know well, I'm just leading my team to do this one thing, but the rest of the school is doing something else and ultimately it still falls down because we don't have that cohesive view around children and the process of learning. You know there's lack of funding and support from the top in terms of what we actually want to achieve in the early years. So there's lots of things that then get in the way and they're just less effective.

Amie Fabry:

Who were really effective were very open to having conversations with their school exec team and actually asking questions and getting to really understand where principals and deputy principals might be coming from in their own thinking and decision making in terms of what happens across the school and whether that's around programs or resources or staffing or timetables All of the kind of things that teachers are quick to say. This gets in my way of implementing pedagogy. They're often decisions that are made by our school principals, and rightly so. That's their job. So early childhood leaders, who I found were really effective, were actually really willing and open to having these conversations and really helping principals to understand how the focus in the early years could actually support some of their other big long-term goals.

Amie Fabry:

You know they're wanting to see children achieve by the end of year six. What does that look like actually when we're starting from kindergarten, for example? So that was. Another really important factor is actually bringing everyone together and building some shared understandings right across the school and ideally that would even include our, you know, middle to upper primary colleagues as well to understand where have these children come from and what are some of the things that might be getting in their way. If you know, learning is a bit of a challenge for them because it's not necessarily just that they don't understand the content. There's often other things going on for them. It's a lot there.

Jenny Cole:

And I was thinking as you were talking about that last point is that if we don't give people status, even if it's a phase of learning leader, plc status, then they don't have permission to have those conversations with leadership teams about timetables or appropriate pedagogy, because you're just a little teacher trying to have their voice heard, whereas if you're the phase of learning leader for early childhood, then chances are you probably do meet with the leadership team and you might have more status in terms of permission to have those conversations. So even just the titles make a difference, doesn't it? You know, just to say-

Amie Fabry:

Yeah, they do absolutely, and I think it's also, you know, for teachers working in the early years and you know I'm using that lens just because of the context of what we're talking about but if you don't have anyone who is recognized as having expertise, then it's not just one person who's going, I'm not valued or no one cares about my knowledge, but everybody in that team is also saying the same thing.

Amie Fabry:

So it is very much about giving them some status and opening those opportunities for those conversations and leading PLC meetings and all of those things. But it also means that the other teachers who are working around them can see that this is a valuable role and I have expertise that could be valued and here's a role that I can aspire to. We also, you know, particularly thinking about the teacher shortage. I think we actually need to be empowering our teachers because they do have phenomenal knowledge and experience, particularly in the context in which they work. So I think that also creates a wonderful opportunity for all of them to look to the future and where they can go and also how they can influence beyond their own classroom to actually contribute to education more broadly or to, you know, the ongoing learning journey of the children in the school, so I think that's really important in terms of career progression as well.

Jenny Cole:

So you've developed a framework, Amie, called Lead with Intention. Talk to me about the framework and how it will help early childhood educators.

Amie Fabry:

Sure. So basically from my research, no surprise really, but there is no support in terms of resources for early childhood leadership in schools, which is partly why I researched this area, and so what I've kind of done is taken my research findings and put them into a framework that simplifies, might I say, a thesis of work.

Amie Fabry:

So it's very practical, because I actually I genuinely believe that this is. We have a great opportunity to enhance leadership in our schools. I really do believe in middle leadership and I think it's a pivotal role connecting, you know, school administrators with teachers, but also helping bridge the gap between research and practice. And I think, because we don't have enough support for early childhood leadership in schools, I really wanted to be able to offer something back to the early childhood educators and leaders who do such an amazing job in our schools, and this is my way of supporting them. So I have taken what I've learned from my research findings and put it into a framework. Um, just thinking, if I've got one handy to show.

Jenny Cole:

I'll definitely link to it in the show notes and I have a picture of it because I I saw it earlier and, um, so, yeah, we would love people to be able to access that.

Amie Fabry:

Nice and bright, but essentially it just talks through very sort of succinctly why we need early childhood leaders in our schools, what are sort of the factors that help them to be really effective, like having that expertise, like I talked about, and time, and it talks through some practical strategies of ways they can actually support educators in terms of enhancing pedagogy and outline some of the things that you know, like our principals can do in terms of supporting them to to do their job well. So it's very practical and so far we've had great feedback. So that's really exciting too.

Jenny Cole:

That is exciting, and I know that one of the things that you're really passionate about is not only early childhood leadership, but those leaders being able to lead themselves first and knowing themselves as leaders. Do you want to talk to me about what you believe and what you feel in that area? Yeah, sure.

Amie Fabry:

Look, I think part of this comes from probably my own experience.

Amie Fabry:

If I'm honest, you know I'm a very self-reflective person and we've had some great conversations and you know I've learnt a lot from you.

Amie Fabry:

But I think, you know, particularly when I think about the early childhood profession, it's predominantly women, predominantly women who have not had their voices heard, because the early years is often, you know, not the space we want to listen to the early childhood teachers, and I am generalising here.

Amie Fabry:

But I think when I hear from educators and they say, well, I'm just doing a good job and I'm no better than anybody else, I think what is so important for them to realise and this was my personal journey too is that I don't have to be like anybody else and I don't have to be the best at anything, or I don't have to be the person that just magically knows all the answers, but I can actually lead in a way that is authentic to me, and I think that's such an important message for any educator if I'm honest or any person is that we have to recognise our unique strengths and gifts.

Amie Fabry:

We don't have to be good at everything, but actually just spending some time getting to know yourself is a great way to actually be able to step into your own leadership capability, way to actually be able to step into your own leadership capability, and so that's a big part of the program that I run for educators. We spend a bit of time doing some deep dives into their own values and characteristics and to help them to see that what they already bring enough.

Amie Fabry:

I guess, and a big part of leading, as I I've learned, is actually just taking the next step and yes, even though you don't feel ready. Um, but, but what can I do next? And it's okay if I don't have all the answers, um, I can figure out some things as I go.

Jenny Cole:

That's exactly what confidence is. Is, you know, turning those thoughts into actions, which is what's the next step I need to take. You don't come across as an extrovert or someone who's hugely confident, but you've got this lovely grounded confidence and people listening to you will think surely she's confident. But I know there's a lot of self-doubt and inner critic in there. How do you deal with that voice that's saying don't do it and stop?

Amie Fabry:

Oh, that's such a good point. You know me very well, Jenny. Look, I think the first step for me was being aware of it.

Amie Fabry:

And I know, if I think back to the Women in Leadership course that you ran that I came to, I think that was a bit of an eye opener for me, because I probably thought for a long time that the negative thoughts in my head were just something that I dealt with. And so I think, firstly, accepting and understanding that other people kind of deal with the same thing is really quite affirming right, and you go, okay, it's not just me. I can maybe get past this, um, but I think that the main thing is being aware of it. So, like I still will fall into the. You know I can't do this and and who am I to do it? And you know I've got it.

Amie Fabry:

I've got a speaking event, um, not next week, the week after, and you know I'm already going. Why me? But um, I think the thing is for me recognizing those voices in my head and then replacing them, and it's just a, it's an ongoing learning for me. Um is to just remember that what's the worst that can happen? Um, maybe things will go better than you think. Um, also, I guess it comes back to my values as well and really wanting to make a difference and speak up for early childhood. If I don't do it, then who is going to do it?

Amie Fabry:

and maybe there are people doing it, but I I guess it's one of my values is to actually work towards the things that matter and not just sit back and wish someone else would do it um, so that kind of encourages me to just give it a go, but I do have to remind myself of the things that I have achieved, you know, and I also have to listen to other people who often see things in me that I don't necessarily see, or I dismiss them very quickly, you know, and I guess if they're people that I admire and respect, you know to trust their own judgments as well, and it's probably just all of those things and just keep doing it.

Jenny Cole:

And I love that, because the voice in our head can be the only voice we hear unless we collect other evidence. You know, I spoke at that meeting and nobody seemed to die and that person gave me lovely feedback, whereas we're very busy collecting the evidence about how bad we've done something and less quick to collect evidence to the contrary. So I love that, and I love the fact that you talk about embedding it in your values. If your value is to progress, early childhood leadership and early childhood more broadly, then you've got to do it. You can't go oops, sorry, I'm having a bad day. I'm going to go over here in the corner and rock myself to sleep, although we all often feel like that. You've just had a big moment where you've presented at an international conference for the first time. There must have been a few inner critic voices before you did that. I'm just really curious about that whole trip away, what you learned, what you experienced. Share with us that, please.

Amie Fabry:

Oh yes, you know this is, I think, the funny thing about me is, even though I have, you know, that negative thought in my head all the time, I'm also someone that sometimes, probably foolishly, just puts my hand up to do things and goes, oh that sounds great, I can do that. And then afterwards I go, oh, hang on, maybe I can't, but this was just one of those opportunities. I put my hand up to speak at a conference and my paper was accepted, so I thought off, I go to Finland, here we go. So it was kind of just putting it out there, and then I just had to figure out how to make it happen, and so I was also fortunate enough to turn it into quite a wonderful learning opportunity, visiting schools and kindergartens over in Finland and Denmark while I was there. But just going to the conference was phenomenal. You know it was not a huge conference, but just to be in the room with you know these amazing researchers who have just been in this field for such a long time, you know people that I quoted in my thesis and have read all their articles, and then they're having a conversation with me, just blew my mind.

Amie Fabry:

So it was just such a wonderful opportunity and I think one of the things that also is helping me to just step into this space is really trying to be present and not doubt myself, because the minute I start doubting myself, my thought goes to am I saying the right things or do I look silly? But instead just to really step into my space and just own it, not worry about making a mistake. You know, and on the day when I presented, my tech wouldn't work and you know all of those things, but do you know what? I was actually surprisingly calm. I really surprised myself and I thought well, you know this stuff, you can talk about it anyway, even if your slides don't work. Someone very kindly fixed them for me. But it was just such a wonderful opportunity and great to be in the room, learning from a lot of other people and just sharing what I know and if it's helpful for other people Do you have?

Jenny Cole:

I'm going to ask two questions One big takeaway from the conference itself and any takeaways or enduring memories of the places that you visited the early childhood, kindergartens and so forth in Finland and Denmark.

Amie Fabry:

Oh look, I think. If I think about the international space, I think early childhood is something that's overlooked everywhere, and so, on one hand, it makes me think, well, it's not just Australia, but on the other hand, I think, collectively and globally, we have a lot of work to do, and so that you know, I'm always looking at opportunities, jenny and I'm just going you know how do we bring people together, you know, to, I guess, fight the same, fight and advocate and be a bigger, louder voice, you know, and I guess, fight the same, fight and advocate and be a bigger, louder voice, you know, and we're mostly women. So you know how do we do that and keep empowering and supporting each other in this work. So that was probably a big takeaway. Another thing, I guess, looking at different contexts and they are different contexts what really did stand out about Denmark and Finland is one their children don't start school till seven, and that's something I'm sitting with, and I'm not across enough research, and I don't think there is enough research to really show us the pros and cons of that, but it's an interesting space that I'm thinking about at the moment.

Amie Fabry:

The other thing that really stands out, though, is just how much they support their children and families in the early years. So schools are mostly public schools. There's very few private schools. You know parents have parental leave for the first 12 months. You know if they have a place in a kindergarten or a long day care or a school, you have the place for the year, so it's yours to use as you want.

Amie Fabry:

There's after school support for everybody who needs it, like there's just so many things. And even when we think about children with disabilities or learning difficulties, the schools are run by the municipalities and so they have a whole team of experts like allied health professionals, who meet with the school in kindergarten every month. So they're across all the children. Every child has their, has an individualized learning plan every child and it's reviewed twice a year. So when I think about some of the differences, you know, you can see how things could be better here in terms of supporting our children and our families, but also our educators, who have, you know, such a hard job but such an important job actually enabling every child to thrive. So they were some really big standout things. To me that's phenomenal.

Jenny Cole:

I have said more than once, probably on this podcast, that I believe that we don't have an educational problem. We have a parenting problem, and I'm not blaming parents. I'm saying is, we don't bring our children up in communities anymore. We don't allow them to play, we don't allow them to take risks, so by the time they get to school, they don't perhaps have some of that self-regulation that we learn and all of those sorts of things. And then, because of the way that we live, our parents are more and more alienated from school. And schooling is your job and parenting is my job, and I'll just do that on Sunday afternoon when I take them to hockey, hockey, and and again. That's not a that's not a criticism of parents, but what I'm hearing is a system where all of that's slightly more integrated and supported and the role of parents is valued and the role of school is valued, and the allied health. Can't do this alone. This is a community.

Amie Fabry:

Absolutely. So it was really nice to see that in practice and you know, I met this amazing mother over in Denmark and she actually said it's a great place to raise a child, so you can see the difference that it makes. Yeah, I think you're spot on. We definitely need a more integrated approach and a community approach.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, because early childhood educators, there's more testing, which is good. There's an upside to testing we know the baseline, we know where kids are coming in at, but that takes time and it takes effort. There's NQS, you know, which is great. So we've got standards, we don't just all do our own thing, but that takes effort and time away from educating, because we're doing that, there's a lot more responsibility and also, as you intimated, the curriculum is getting shoved down further and further and we're giving kids less time to play and explore and inquire and expecting them to be able to sit and concentrate. If you could wave your magic wand and change something big or little, doesn't matter what would you improve? Oh, that's a good question.

Amie Fabry:

Can I say a few things?

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, of course you can.

Amie Fabry:

I think one of the things that is really problematic, particularly in schools, is that we know internationally and nationally early childhood is considered zero to eight but actually a lot of our policies are positioned to only be zero to five. Wa is a little different because we have the national quality standard, but I think that's problematic and I think there becomes a bit of a tension between, say, long daycare or kindergarten in other states and then school, and so I think that's a huge problem. I think if we as a nation had policies that recognised early childhood as zero to eight, I think we could, you know, coming back to this community idea, we could actually work more closely between, say, long daycare, kindergarten and school. I think that would be really beneficial for children, for educators and families. So that's one thing I would change. I think also, you know the curriculum is a problem and everyone says you know it's been pushed down and you know, even probably before I started teaching.

Amie Fabry:

You know teachers have said what I used to teach in pre-primary, probably before I started teaching. You know teachers have said what I used to teach in pre-primary or no, in year two is now pre-primary content. I think that does put a lot of pressure on, but it's probably more the testing that puts the pressure. I think you know, and even if I think about On Entry, which was designed to give us an indication of where our children are at as they start school, some of the testing just gets turned into something it's not meant to be. So, instead of becoming formative, it's now a summative assessment in some schools of how well did we teach kindergarten? You know what I mean.

Amie Fabry:

Yes yes, it just very quickly gets misconstrued and, rather than become something helpful for teachers, it becomes a way of judging teachers, and I think that's what we've got to remove. We actually need to trust our teachers more and if we're using testing and measures, you know, like you said, they serve a place, but they need to serve that place and I think you know this is partly where exec teams, you know, I guess, need to be able to make decisions about how they use these tools so they don't derail everything. But actually it's a tool that's going to help us, you know, track children's progress, as opposed to, you know, become a big stick about how well we're doing as a school or how well our educators are doing. I think that gets in the way of of good teaching and teachers being able to actually support individual children. So I'd probably change that.

Jenny Cole:

I could talk to you forever, but we all have other work to do, so I'm just going to ask you one final question. If you had a piece of advice or a resource apart from your own fabulous framework, or some professional learning or a book that you could recommend to people who are already leading in the early childhood space, what would it be?

Amie Fabry:

I always recommend Dare to Lead by Brené Brown. If I again think about my own leadership journey, reading that book was such an eye-opener for me and even though it's not related to education, I think it's just related to human beings.

Jenny Cole:

Yes.

Amie Fabry:

So I just love it, and I think anyone who reads it can see themselves somewhere in those pages, and it's just such a useful tool to really understand yourself better as a leader, but also how you connect to other people. So I think it's a very valuable read and one that I read again and again.

Jenny Cole:

Oh lovely. Thank you, Amie. It's been an absolute joy talking to you today. Thank you so much and, as I said, we're going to make sure that people can find out where they can contact you, where they can get a copy of your framework, follow you on LinkedIn and so forth. So it's been a delight, Thank you so much.

Amie Fabry:

Thank you for having me.