Positively Leading

S3E11 - Why Being a School Leader is More than Just a Title with Cleo Jenkins

• Jenny Cole • Season 3 • Episode 11

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In this episode, we sit down with Cleo Jenkins, an experienced Deputy Principal with a wealth of leadership wisdom. Growing up in a family of educators, Cleo shares how her early influences and personal hardships shaped her perspective on leadership and wellbeing.

We explore why self-care is essential for school leaders and how Cleo’s doctorate research is shedding light on the relational dynamics that impact leadership effectiveness. From building trust and communication to fostering a supportive school culture, her insights are practical and deeply relevant.

Aspiring leaders will also pick up valuable strategies on time management, mentorship, and personal growth. This conversation is honest, hopeful, and full of takeaways to help you lead with purpose.

Tune in, subscribe, and let us know your thoughts!

Did you know there is more? You can access every episode, show notes, links and more via my website Positively Beaming.

Jenny Cole:

Hello and welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm your host, Jenny Cole. I'm the owner and coach at Positively Beaming and I'm delighted today to be joined by Cleo Jenkins. Welcome, Cleo.

Cleo Jenkins:

Hi, Jenny, how are you?

Jenny Cole:

I'm very well, thank you. Cleo is currently the Deputy Principal at a very large primary school in the southeast of the metropolitan area in Western Australia and she leads a vibrant community not on her own, but there is a vibrant community of 110 staff and over a thousand students. It was even higher at one point and recently she did have the opportunity to be the acting principal for a while, and she's currently pursuing her doctorate of education part-time and is devoted to lifelong learning. She's a professional auntie, I love that because so am I, spending time with her nieces and nephews, and she stays active with CrossFit and yoga and walks with friends, and she loves to caravan along our beautiful coastline in WA with her partner and her Cocker Spaniel named Scotty something else we share. So welcome, Cleo.

Jenny Cole:

That's made me exhausted just talking about it.

Jenny Cole:

Can you share with the listeners a little bit about your leadership journey and how you've got to where you are?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, I think my leadership journey actually really started at home. You know, both my parents were humanitarians. They both had PhDs in psychology and my mum was an associate professor in special education. So growing up I did, incidentally, spend a lot of time with them at work in universities nationally and internationally and also in the school sectors, and I think, you know, the role of a female in leadership was modelled to me from quite a young age and as a teenager I do remember becoming increasingly aware that both my parents were psychologists you know, not every teenager's dream and I think that naturally heightened my sensitivity of, and I guess, observations of, communication and interactions and body language and those types of things, I think early on as well.

Cleo Jenkins:

You know, my own schooling experiences were really quite diverse and influential.

Cleo Jenkins:

I actually attended a private girls school in my early years and also in my secondary years, as well as a public school in between, and I also attended an international school actually over in Sweden for a period of time and I also boarded, which was also a unique challenge.

Cleo Jenkins:

I guess that made me really appreciate home a little bit more. I think overall I also had, on the whole, excellent teachers and principals and I still do reflect on their professionalism, their care, how, I believe, they connected with each other and also their kindness, which does inspire me still today and I think from this, my daily mantra is everything you do as a leader matters, because when you are in a school leadership position, you are making a difference. You know, whether you like it or not, negative or positive, and you know I was that 10 year old girl looking out to those who were making a positive influence. So, yeah, I do hope to pass the gift on. So I think even just my childhood did broaden my perspective. I have connected with people from all walks of life and it has given me a deeper appreciation definitely for, I think, different education systems and approaches, and I feel really lucky to live, learn and work in Australia, so I did resist becoming a teacher for a while.

Jenny Cole:

That was going to be my next question.

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, so I think it was a bit of a push from my parents. So I just resisted it and enjoyed a bit of time traveling. And then I did enroll in a teaching degree at early in my 20s I think I was 21. However, tragically, actually the same year, my mum was diagnosed with early onset frontotemporal dementia, and she was only 57. So this was this was a huge shock for the family, and I think this adversity really did shape over the years how I wanted to live my life.

Cleo Jenkins:

So I developed two guiding principles that I still live by each day, and that's number one just be grateful for having a functioning brain.

Cleo Jenkins:

It's a muscle, so I do make sure that I use it every day and also just to make the most of every moment, because your life can really change in an instant and that's, yeah, what I witnessed.

Cleo Jenkins:

So and I know, jenny, in a previous podcast you had discussed regrets of the dying I don't want to have regrets. I think decisions that I make at the time feel right at the time, so I try not to think about things like that, I guess. As such and I guess Dr Pete Stebbins was also talking about the concept of the arrival fallacy, pushing things back and waiting for the arrival of the destination. But I think, because of the principles that I follow, I don't really that doesn't really exist for me, I guess. So I try to be present and enjoy the journey as much as I can and I pride myself on being a bit as a thinker, you know, charting my own course and, I guess, taking responsibility for my own course rather than also conforming to the norms of society. I did land a position as a foundation teacher at a new school and I remember the moment where I recognised that this was a rare opportunity.

Cleo Jenkins:

So, I took the initiative, I worked really hard and put my hand up really to establish initiatives from the ground up for the staff, students and the community, and I think that mindset and then the actions that followed helped me to achieve Level 3 teacher status. So that's when I felt that I really wanted to go down the school leadership path and I guess, yeah, now I've been a deputy principal, I guess for the last 11 years in four different schools across the South Metropolitan region in the public education system and each school, you know, has had its unique contexts and also challenges. But, yeah, I feel really lucky to have worked with a lot of amazing educators and wonderful students. I think early on in my school leadership journey I did focus on my strengths of creating the safe and supportive learning environment, leading curriculum implementation and, I guess, strengthening student voice as well for the students in the school. Building effective relationships with all stakeholders was central to my approach and building trust was really key. Early on I did seek feedback, I guess, to identify my strengths and also to work on my weaknesses and, I guess, blinds. Now, a pivotal moment did come to me when, after a deputy interview, I didn't win the position and I sought feedback and the panel said we didn't get a sense of who you are as a leader, and that really forced me to reflect deeply. You know, who am I as a leader, who do I want to be as a leader, what is my purpose? And then, from that point on, I did a lot of work, I guess, using my principles to clarify my why, and then aligning my actions with my core values and using the support of external coaches and mentors, and this is an ongoing task for me. I think my focus then really shifted to developing leadership capacity of teacher leaders, as well as then seeking more complexity in my portfolio. So it was also that time that I decided to continue down the high degree by research path, with the desire just to support leaders, to thrive, to connect with different education communities and also to broaden my career opportunities.

Cleo Jenkins:

Now, over the last 12 months, I've had the privilege of working as a deputy principal and acting principal in the level six school, working alongside a highly knowledgeable and experienced female mentor, and this experience has been invaluable. I think there's been so many insights that have shaped my leadership, and you know this experience has been invaluable. I think there's been so many insights that have shaped my leadership and I think my experience with this intergenerational mentorship has really been positive. I think experienced leaders who I've connected with have such incredible wisdom and knowledge to share and you know they're wanting to share that because they are coming towards the end of their career and I think, as an aspiring leader, I have so much to gain from them. So, yeah, it's been a really great experience.

Cleo Jenkins:

I have been asked, you know, whether it is hard to transition from deputy principal to principal. I guess my answer has been both yes and no. So yes in the sense that I think you know stepping into any new role is going to be a challenge. You're going to be back at the bottom of the learning pit, but not really, because you know my mentor and I trust each other. We respect each other, we communicate effectively. Any good teacher, she understands who I am and also how I learn best, and we work collaboratively and make decisions together. So I think if your leadership is based in authenticity, I don't alter who I am. You know, monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday I'm Cleo five days a week, whether I'm deputy or principal, and I just strive to be consistent, you know, uphold integrity and remain approachable, and I think that's really important. When you are in that co-principalship, you know staying true to yourself, your values as well as the shared vision of the school, is really essential for the staff, community and students.

Jenny Cole:

So yeah, yeah, there's so much in there that I would love to unpack. If I just read your bio, your CV, it reads as somebody who obviously loves learning and is passionate about progressing qualifications and attending conferences and all of that. And I must admit, without your backstory, because I don't know you without the understanding that your parents were both academics my worry would be there's some people who just overlearn everything and just want to keep learning and keep learning and keep learning but don't have the kind of practice side. What I'm hearing from you is the learning is about keeping your brain exercised and alive and it's obviously deep in your psyche because of the way that you were brought up. But there's this real warmth about you about making sure that there's relationships and that you're learning and all of those things. So I like the who am I as a leader. Talk to me a bit more about that journey. After you got that feedback, how did you unpack who you were and who you wanted to be as a leader?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, that's a good question. So I, what did I do? I think my first initial steps. I really sat on that thought for quite a long period of time and I was thinking, oh God. I remember thinking, oh gosh, you know, like I don't even know who I am as a person, let alone you know who I want to be as a leader. It was actually really quite confronting and I didn't actually get any more feedback. It was literally that statement.

Cleo Jenkins:

So I sought support from WAPPA at the time and they obviously put me in contact with some external coaches, and I'd also reached out to particular principal mentors in regards to finding out more about my purpose. You know, reading books like Simon Sinek, find your why and unpacking that. I think it started for me with identifying my strengths as well as linking my guiding principles that I had in my life. So this is how I want to live each day. So how am I then going to relate this to my work? Because you are at work 80% of your life, so my work and life are very much intertwined. So it's just a way of living for me. Does that make sense?

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, yeah, it does, and I think, almost developmentally, we come up through our career and we teach and we become a good teacher and then we get leadership opportunities and it's not until we get some feedback that we actually go backwards and think about I know who I was as a teacher, who am I as a leader, and what kind of impact do I want to make? Your current leader is a mentor of yours. She has a completely different leadership style, is my guess, to yours, but there'd be synchronicities. What are you learning from her that you're adding to your toolkit?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, I think we do have a similar leadership philosophy, I think, which does support the roles that we do have and how it works for the students and staff. I think, just more so the consultation being comfortable. Not being the smartest person in the room, she's very warm and approachable and she's able to provide feedback with compassion, and I think that's something that I've really taken on board and learnt. I think, also acknowledging that teachers are our biggest asset and it's really important that we trust and care for them. But also, what teachers do we have in our school? And you know that's your core business finding outstanding teachers for your students. So that's a real big priority for us, and making sure that we do work hard to find the right fit for the school and the students, because it's one of the greatest impacts on student learning.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, and on the same token, it's a large school. There's four other deputies, three others four all together. Yeah, you've got to work as a team. How does the school organise the roles and responsibilities first up? So we've got a bit of context, and where do you overlap and how do you have to get along as a sort of leadership team? Any advice on that for people who might be in large leadership team?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, so I think the roles and responsibilities is literally just in a table format. There's four columns and the four deputies' names are at the top. I think as a principal you do the way that we do. It is that you know you do have a bit of a goal at considering deputies' strengths, areas that they want to develop through their own personal performance management, making sure that they are getting aspects across all the AITSL principal standards, you know operational as well as curriculum policy development. And then, once that's drafted, you know meeting with the deputies individually and having those conversations.

Cleo Jenkins:

You know, does this fit with you? Are you happy with this type of work? And then obviously there is crossover. So the roles and responsibilities it's really clear that they're communicated to the staff so that you know the staff know who to go to. And there are elements of crossover, particularly when we are doing things as a team and also depending on the priorities of the school and the business plan at the time. And we talk about that in executive meetings, about how we will do that and how we will deliver, whatever it may be, to the staff, for example walkthroughs or peer observations.

Jenny Cole:

Do you guys sort of manage sub-schools Like someone does K-1 and somebody else does 2, 3 and 4. Is that how it's organised for you?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yes, yeah, so we do have K to two or KP one, two, three, four, five, six, and then, you know, someone will do the specialists as well. Our specialist team is made up of about 14 staff, so it's huge and I think you know we do try to stick with that alignment, but it's not black and white. You know staff are welcome to come and speak to any deputy about anything that they have a concern with or anything that they want support with. But I think, just in terms of for the community and the student, when you are dealing with a particular year group, you do really get to know those students and those families. So it does become easier instead of being overwhelmed thinking about a thousand students.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, I've been talking a lot lately with one particular school about people who were deputy shopping. They'll go to one deputy because they know they'd get the right answer, or they'll go to another. And we're talking about staying in your lane, and the bigger the school is, the more important it is to try and stay in your lane, otherwise it does cross over and gets a bit confusing. But it also means that as deputies or a leadership team you've really got to be tight about who does what and what our beliefs are and how we communicate that to staff. It just gets more complicated, doesn't it, the bigger the school gets.

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, and I think that's why the culture is really important and you need to start with that. You know in any school if you are leading a team, so if you are leading the executive team, you know you need to do the work prior to starting. You know your roles and responsibilities together in terms of how are we going to work together and talk about different scenarios, in terms of if someone does come up, what is our response and how do we manage that. Because it's so important that, as an executive team, you are working as a team, because if you're not, I do believe that it does impact the staff, which then impacts the students. So, yeah, I agree.

Jenny Cole:

I want to talk about your passion area, which is wellbeing. Way back your master's on the impact of collaboration on teacher wellbeing, and now you're pursuing your doctorate and focusing on leadership. Talk to us about what your research is, what you're pursuing your doctorate and focusing on leadership. Talk to us about what your research is, what you're finding out, what you're interested in, because, as you know, I'm passionate about it, so I'm happy to listen to anything that you've got to share with us.

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, and I guess I you know, initially it stemmed from being really curious about school leaders and about leadership in general and also wellbeing, and so I guess my passion is at the crux of it. It's really about wanting to bring the best out in others, you know, whether it's children or adults, and so I did commence my Doctor of Education part-time in 2019, and it is over a eight-year period. So my thesis title is Supporting the Wellbeing of School Leaders in Primary Schools, and I think well-being is such a complex topic with various definitions. My thesis is based around Deccan and Ryan's understanding that well-being is a state and a result from the subjective evaluation of the quality of one's life. So I believe that well-being is not stagnant. It can be viewed on a spectrum and it starts with self, and also that spectrum can be from feeling very, very poor to flourishing, and I think it also changes depending on life circumstances.

Cleo Jenkins:

And just going back to self, we do know that wellbeing does start with yourself and your self-care, but we also need to consider school leadership and the context of school leadership. It is relational. So when we do consider school leader wellbeing, what's happening to them, what's happening to their performance, and then how does this impact on the school system and society? So yeah, I recently conducted a longitudinal research locally, over a two-term period, with school leaders in WA, using surveys and interviews, and I'm currently at the stage now where I'm analysing the data and I really aim to identify themes within that data, particularly as well, hopefully, within the concepts of, you know, what we do know is impacting wellbeing, school leader wellbeing, which is, you know, workload, as well as that emotional labour, and then I hope to be able to provide some recommendations, I guess, to school leaders and authorities I guess ensure that school leaders do continue to thrive.

Jenny Cole:

Wow, important work. Is it too early to say what some of the themes are or what you suspect some of the themes will be?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, I think it is too early and I think you know you've really got to know your data and I think the research and the data that I have collected over a two-term period there's a lot of qualitative data, how people are feeling and coping. So, yeah, there's lots to look at, but watch this space.

Jenny Cole:

Yes indeed, and so one of the components of positive psychology is that notion of grit, and I think anyone doing their doctorate who can stick to something for eight years deserves a medal. Quite honestly, it certainly takes.

Cleo Jenkins:

It's not easy.

Jenny Cole:

No, yeah, so how do you maintain motivation, energy and momentum towards?

Cleo Jenkins:

Oh, that's a good question.

Cleo Jenkins:

I think, planner, I do a lot of planning. So, for example, my doctorate is planned out over eight years and it's on an A4 overview. So you know, I can look at that overview on one page and say, hey, yes, I'm keeping up with it, or no, I need to do a little bit more work in this space and I'm passionate about it and I'm driven about it, and so I think that definitely helps me move along. It's also the process as well. I'm learning so much on the journey. So the idea that I get there and I finish it is amazing and I do think about that. Yeah, but, as everyone would, I'm just enjoying the process and learning that I have and you know the people that you do meet. I also have supervisors that are, you know, your cheerleaders and they support you to set those short and mid-term goals to really achieve the long-term goal. But it's hard. It's just like having children is hard. Doing a doctorate it's hard work, but you just chip away at it and it's not so overwhelming.

Jenny Cole:

You said before that wellbeing ebbs and flows and different stages of your life. That was one of the things that really hit me is that parents of young children have their highest life satisfaction but are the most exhausted and often mentally not unwell. But you know, they're striving, they're not thriving, despite having life satisfaction, because their kids bring them joy. And I reckon schools are a bit like that. Because we love it so much and because we love the kids, we're prepared to put up with some of the pain of an exhaustion and hard work and all of that kind of stuff.

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah.

Jenny Cole:

You obviously, through this study and other studies, are really keen on wellbeing. Yet you found yourself a while back burning out. Are you prepared to share that story with us and your learnings from that?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, I think that probably has been one of the biggest things I have learned About. Two and a half years ago I did experience burnout and it was a really scary experience, I think, despite having studied at university for almost 10 years on the concept of wellbeing. It just made me realise that, you know, no one's immune to it and it can sneak up on you. I think in the lead up, when I look back, I was, you know, mentally exhausted. I felt that I was definitely trapped in a cycle of overthinking and ruminating on particular thoughts. My thoughts definitely lacked clarity and I felt my head was just fuzzy and it was really hard actually to get up and go to work each day. But I kept pushing. I actually also had physical warning signs and symptoms. I guess that I ignored at the time because perhaps I hadn't experienced them before. So I wasn't sleeping well and I was suffering excruciating muscle cramps all throughout my body, particularly in my legs. And so I look back and think I didn't recognize my limits and I just kept pushing and so I eventually found myself lying in a hospital bed, forced to take leave.

Cleo Jenkins:

I think also in the lead up, I listened to Dr Pete Gubbins and his wellbeing series and he was talking about little traumas and I recognize now how much these accumulated for me as well. At the time I was allowing things outside of my control to really agitate and frustrate me. I felt I had a misalignment with what I was doing and my values and I just felt really uncertain, I guess, with work and life. And then at the same time I had a big trauma as such, where mum passed away after 13 years. So that was 13 years of grieving for somebody that was still alive, and so that was, on top of the little traumas, a lot to deal with.

Cleo Jenkins:

So from that I guess the learning was you know, I really need to make some changes to prioritise that self-care. And I guess now I'm so much more attuned to my mental and physical state and I no longer ignore warning signs. Self-care is a habit. I literally think about how I'm feeling and my wellbeing each day. And I have reshaped my environment and lifestyle. We moved house, we moved to an acre, so now it's surrounded by bush and nature and it's no longer more about you know, oh, how am I going to switch off. It's more about I need to do everything in my power to switch off and do that and I've learned you know little things like not to overcommit on the weekends, engage in, you know, low intensity exercise, make time to have lunch with colleagues and just find joy in those more mundane tasks that are at a slower pace.

Jenny Cole:

And the things that we just think are extras like oh, I don't have time to have lunch because I'm really busy, or I don't have time to go for a walk they are the things that will give have time to go for a walk. They are the things that will give you time because it restores you. There's nothing like a dog and a walk around an acreage to do that.

Cleo Jenkins:

It definitely helps.

Jenny Cole:

Feel free just to ignore this question. We can move on if necessary. But you're obviously intelligent. You're well learnedlearned. So when I experienced my burnout, I realized I had spent all of my life and career in my head. I loved intelligence, I love reading, I love learning, but I knew nothing about what sat below my head my emotions, my feelings. They just got pushed aside while I just kept going In that burnout process for you and coming out the other side. Have you become? When you talk about self-care and being attuned to your body, is that about emotions and feelings as well as bodily? What's actually going on for you? Does that make any sense?

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, yeah, I think so, Particularly the rumination also ruminating on particular thoughts and also not expressing emotions, which is that emotional labor. I am still someone. That's very much in my head. However, I'm now just aware of that. You know, if I feel that I am thinking too much about something, then I've got different avenues. You know, I speak to my partner, I speak to mentors, I'll contact a psychologist, that kind of thing. So I've just realised that there's so many more people that can help and you do have access to, you know, external agencies and support when you do need it.

Jenny Cole:

So yeah, and sometimes just getting out of your own head is literally verbalising what's in your head to somebody else so that they can take some of that burden. Thank you for sharing that. Really appreciate it, because it just shows that even if you have all of the knowledge and skill, you can sometimes find yourself burnt out and overwhelmed and we don't want anyone to get to that point. So, building in those self-care habits so important. Let's get back to leadership. Even though they're completely intertwined best advice you ever received as a leader.

Cleo Jenkins:

Oh, the best advice I have received as a leader. That's a good question. Oh, that's big, okay. Well, it's about holding people accountable in the workplace.

Cleo Jenkins:

Early on in my school leadership career I was, I guess, when I was faced with those, you know, undesirable and damaging behaviors in the workplace from colleagues, I often just chose to ignore the situation, close the door or just walk away, I think, understanding that inflicted were grappling with their own internal struggles or insecurities.

Cleo Jenkins:

So, I guess, having compassion in that sense and it did bring me peace to do this. However, I think, over time and advice, it's really important that you do address it. So I do have a broader perspective on this now and, I think, one that considers the culture that I want to be a part of, and you know it all starts with the culture. So to contribute positive and respectful workplace, you need to hold people to account in regards to how you are treated, and I think the standard you walk past is the standard you expect. So I said, instead of ignoring these situations, I will now address them privately and respectfully, and I think this approach and this advice gave me confidence and I think it not only upholds my values but also, you know, I want to contribute to a workplace where everyone can thrive. I think that's in the best interest of the students. So I think just the advice was to, I guess, confront and be more confident having difficult conversations instead of letting it fester, I guess, if you don't deal with it.

Jenny Cole:

So yeah, great, and I know your school has been very keen on building a Milder leadership, a group of teachers who take on leadership responsibilities, impact coaches, those sorts of things. What sort of advice or professional learning do you give to those emerging leaders in your school?

Cleo Jenkins:

Well, I think you know leadership, when you're learning, is all about people, and I think it's really important to build trust, and it's not just trust with your team, it's trust with your colleagues and everyone that you're working with, and I think that's done through. You know effective communication and making sure your actions mirror your words. I think you know treating everyone with kindness and compassion, and people will remember how you make them feel. So just ensuring that you realise that everyone's role is important. You know, if we didn't have cleaners, the school wouldn't be safe. So you know making sure that we do value everyone.

Cleo Jenkins:

I think as well, for you know those middle leaders when they are starting with their teams, it's so important to believe and trust that your team can make a difference because they will. If to believe and trust that your team can make a difference because they will. If you believe and you trust in your team to make a difference, they will. And also, obviously, just making sure that you value, appreciate and celebrate the work that's done and find ways to connect with individuals in formal and informal settings. You know, so they do feel valued and appreciated and celebrated. Everybody wants that from their workplace.

Jenny Cole:

Absolutely, as you said. That's the trust. If we feel like we belong, we feel like what we do matters, we are more likely to be engaged and committed. Trust the people around us. So awesome advice. When you said trust that your team can do it, it made me think about one collective teacher efficacy. If we work together well as a team, we can make a difference for kids. But I often see new leaders fall into the trap of feeling like they've got to do it all and know it all and be all things to all people. Is that what you meant by trust? Trust that other people can do something too? Or what's the trust thing about? Trust that you can meet the needs of the kids?

Cleo Jenkins:

talk to me. I guess that I guess the trust was more in terms of you know, trust is fundamental for any relationship. So you know, you've got to start by building trust through communicating and, in words, mirroring your actions.

Jenny Cole:

I suppose what I notice is that sometimes teachers who come into leadership roles want to do all things for everybody and they end up overwhelmed rather than building trusting the team to do it together.

Cleo Jenkins:

Yeah, I think, understanding that you can't do it all and that would have been an early step for me as well in my leadership. You know you can't do it all and if you worry about everything you will go mad. So it's really important that you do acknowledge that you don't know everything, and that's fine. I think being vulnerable is what leads to authentic connection. So if you don't know the answer and someone comes to you seeking advice, then it's important to say you don't know, but you'll find out, and then closing that communication loop as well. That way, you're allowing them to go off and do what they can do and also just being comfortable not being the smartest person in the room. The most effective teams are made up of diverse people, so everyone's got their own strengths, and I think it's really important as well to surround yourself with people who have those strengths that you don't, because you learn from them. Agreed?

Jenny Cole:

So you're obviously very busy. You're studying, you're in a very busy leadership role, you've got commitments outside of school. Share with us any time management tips, anything that might be useful or that you use to help do as much as you can, given that you can't do everything, yeah.

Cleo Jenkins:

I think time management is really important and you do pick up different strategies along the way. For me, you know, monday mornings are generally quieter in the office, so that's when I do prioritise. You know the bigger rocks, the tasks and work that I need to do. That does involve a lot of thinking. I do prioritise and schedule being out and about and visible, because sometimes you don't want to get caught up in your head so much. You need to be out and about talking to people, connecting and being visible, and you know it's so wonderful in particular to be out at recess and lunchtime because you know seeing the kids and interacting with them just makes your day brighter.

Cleo Jenkins:

If I do need to work additional hours I think I'm a bit like you, jenny I'd prefer to do it in the mornings. I will get up at 3am or to do work. I'm much more productive. Also, the first you know activity I do when I get to the office is I generally make a to-do list it's either actually when I arrive at the office or at the end of the day of what I need to do for the day, and then I will prioritize, usually only, you know, one to four tasks of most important to least important, and I could have a list of you know 10 items. But if I prioritize four tasks and I only get two done or one done, then I still feel like I've achieved something in my day. So go home feeling good about that.

Cleo Jenkins:

Like I said before, I'm always planning. I'm known to write my long-term goal on my mirror at home because it does keep focused. It does help me to stay focused actually on what I'm trying to achieve, whether it's in my personal life or my professional life. And Sunday afternoons I do tend to do food prep. I think any way that I can reduce decision-making in my week just reduces that cognitive load and I can be my best self. So you know, I will food prep my breakfast and lunch meals. So that's all organised, and then I also consider what I'm going to wear for the week, just to, I guess, make my week easier.

Jenny Cole:

Yes, Such good advice because sometimes people think that pre-prep is more work, but what you're doing is just you're not thinking in the morning. You don't have to. It's one less decision you have to make. You just grab it and go yeah, yeah. Which is why sometimes wearing a uniform is such a freeing thing, because you don't have to decide what shoes match what to wear.

Jenny Cole:

Great. Thank you, cleo. It has been absolutely delightful talking to you, but before we wrap up, is there anything that we've not talked about, that you're passionate about, that you'd like to share with the audience?

Cleo Jenkins:

Oh, that we've not talked about that you want to come back to, I think, just in terms of planning. You know leading change is such a core component of the role and you know 70% of change fails in education settings. So making sure you do have a clear plan and you stick with that plan and you do do it in collaboration with a group of people so that it is sustainable, I think is really important and I think any plans, even your performance management plan taking ownership of your development. You know we are all entitled to being, to performance being managed, so take that on and drive that. I think yourself is really key.

Jenny Cole:

Absolutely agree. Off the top of your head. Do you have a change management model or process that you'd like to follow?

Cleo Jenkins:

I mean there's a few different ones, but generally Kotter's eight step process and when it comes to the plan, you know just making sure that you do have the steps, your overarching goal, you know your roles and responsibilities, the timeline, and that you are regularly meeting and, I guess, celebrating the successes that's really important as well as you know identifying what those roadblocks are and and working through. I think it just keeps everyone on track.

Jenny Cole:

So I think one of the things I notice when I'm working with aspiring principals particularly those who are writing their job applications I'm always looking for how have you led change, how have you led improvement? And I think if you don't have a model or something that's in your mind, it makes it harder to articulate what it is that you've actually done. So, whether you use Kotter's model or any of the others, just a little word of advice for people make sure that you can articulate how you lead change, because that's going to be your job as a leader, particularly the senior leader, you're not doing stuff anymore.

Jenny Cole:

You're leading people through the change process. Yeah, and.

Cleo Jenkins:

I think when you do have that plan, it's also you know you're working smarter, not harder, because when you do apply for jobs or you know you are seeking that deputy principal position where they always ask you something about leading change. You've got that there and it's documented, so it's easy to go back to and remember. You know what you have done and what successes you have had.

Jenny Cole:

So that's exactly right and good advice. Write down all of your have a model, but also write down the things that you've done so that you can go back to it when you need to pull it out for an interview or a job application. Yeah, Cleo, thank you so much To listeners. We're going to make sure that we put links to where you might find Cleo if there's anything particularly interesting that you'd like to contact her about, and put some links to some of those resources that she's mentioned in some of the books and processes. But thank you for joining us, Thank you for listening and if you enjoyed this episode, we will be back in your ears next Thursday.

Cleo Jenkins:

Thanks, Jenny.