Positively Leading

S3E12 - Why Early Childhood Leadership Matters with Linda Sweet

• Jenny Cole • Season 3 • Episode 12

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Step into the world of early childhood education with Linda Sweet, Deputy Head of Primary Early Learning at a K-12 school in Perth. With 35+ years of experience, Linda’s passion for nurturing young minds shines through as she shares her journey from enthusiastic educator to influential leader.

We explore the power of play-based learning, how it builds resilience, emotional regulation, and social skills, and why creating curiosity-driven environments is key to early education. Linda also discusses the Reggio Emilia approach, the importance of advocacy for young learners, and the need for more diverse role models in the field.

For aspiring leaders, Linda offers practical advice on making decisions, embracing uncertainty, and leading with confidence in the ever-evolving world of education. She shares tools for developing a staff and student charter.

If you care about early learning, leadership, and fostering a love for discovery in children, this episode is for you! Tune in, subscribe, and join the conversation!

Did you know there is more? You can access every episode, show notes, links and more via my website Positively Beaming.

Jenny Cole:

Hello there, lovely listeners, welcome to Positively Leading the Podcast. I'm your host and with me today, I am delighted to be joined by Linda Sweet. Welcome, Linda.

Linda Sweet:

Thanks, Jenny, great to be here.

Jenny Cole:

Linda is currently the Deputy Head of Primary Early Learning at a K-12 independent school in the Perth Northern Suburbs and she's an inspired and dedicated early childhood teacher and leader, working with 158 kindergarten, pre-primary and year one students, she leads a team of 25 professional and passionate educators, including teachers and education assistants, fostering an environment and relationships that honour the development of the whole child. She has worked in early childhood education for over 35 years, experiencing many of the development of the whole child. She has worked in early childhood education for over 35 years, experiencing many of the changes of approaches, curriculum, culture, often all at the same time, and she is energised and exhausted by the challenges of being a leader in early childhood. In her spare time, she enjoys socialising, eating, drinking, cooking, gardening, walking, exercise, travel and spending time with her family and friends, and she has just returned from a wonderful trip to Japan, and I'm very jealous Linda.

Jenny Cole:

That's quite a bio. Do you want to give us a bit of a background about your leadership experience? What's your journey been up to this point? Okay, Well.

Linda Sweet:

I started out not planning necessarily to be a leader we don't have too many leaders to aspire to in early learning so I really just started as an early childhood teacher, very passionate and enthusiastic. And I guess, starting in community kindergartens you actually run your own school basically. So I guess leadership qualities come about naturally. Because you have to run a little committee of parents, you have to do a lot of things that would run a whole school and I did that for quite a number of years and very early in my career and then later on in my career I found myself back in a community kindergarten and then moved into working back in primary schools and then into a K-12 school and I guess all of those things about leading a community of people not just the children, not just a class, but other educators and being responsible for all of that came fairly naturally.

Linda Sweet:

And in my role as a teacher, the opportunity to step up for leading came not necessarily at a convenient time for me but it was too good an opportunity to not take and I guess I felt a lot of can I do this? And I was brave and took that step and had a little go and I have discovered that I do have some skills that are really well suited to the role. So I am leading in this position and I have done this for quite a number of years now and have a fantastic team of people and love it.

Jenny Cole:

And you're right. I don't know if it's accidental or on purpose, but I've spoken to a number of leaders in early learning and there aren't that many of them and the importance of having a leader in the early learning space or the early childhood space in a school is really important because you're the advocate for those kids and those families. And developmental you know the way kids learn. Developmentally it's hard enough in a primary school, but you're in a K-12 school. How do you manage that advocacy and that making sure that your needs are heard?

Linda Sweet:

It's a continual challenge to be an advocate in that area and I feel that the early childhood teachers that are coming out and the early childhood teachers that I work with, it's almost a part of what they're doing at university to be an advocate. So there is a lot of push through the universities and through government funding to empower people that are doing this to speak eloquently about why we do the type of practice that we do, as opposed to what they do later on in a primary school or in a secondary school. And I guess it's just continuing to be that voice and that's where not being deterred by budgets that don't respect what you really need, because it does require equipment and it does require space and it does require a higher ratio of staff. So trying not to be disillusioned but to continue to stay passionate and stay focused on what best practice is and what that looks like, and try and get more people on board rather than alienating them and getting frustrated with them, but educating them as we go.

Jenny Cole:

And I know your school is a Reggio Emilia school, so you are obviously passionate about that approach. How has that philosophy influenced your approach to early learning?

Linda Sweet:

I'll just correct it slightly there, Jenny, it's not a Reggio Emilia school.

Jenny Cole:

Oh, I beg your pardon.

Linda Sweet:

No, we're not. But what we do say we are is inspired by Reggio the Reggio philosophy and the Reggio approach.

Linda Sweet:

So to say you're a Reggio school is a big step from where we're at, but in alignment with the Early Years Learning Framework and the National Quality Standards, the Reggio Amelia approach sits nicely to meet all those standards and so it's something that educators can use as another framework to do really good practice, honouring the rights of the child and looking at them not as an individual but them as in fitting in a group. So we do use that philosophy. We especially use it in setting up our environments that are really developmentally appropriate for children, and that is often hard in schools, especially K-12 schools, because it takes up space, costs money to get the resources and it takes time to educate people on how to set up those environments that are really provocative and engaging for young children to want to wander and inquire and get interested and excited about learning. So I would say we are inspired by Reggio, but there's a couple of approaches that we use, not just that one.

Jenny Cole:

No, I just know that it is one that worldwide has a lot of support. So it obviously works and it's definitely a philosophy that getting kids involved in their learning is obviously very important to you. That wonder and that questioning and inquiry Talk to me a bit more about what that might look like in a centre like yours. What does the inquiry-based learning look like?

Linda Sweet:

Okay, so first of all you would notice the environment because it's very rich in opportunities for the children to touch and feel things using their senses. So lots of different little learning centres. There's things set up outside as well, because we do consider in early learning that the outside environment is just as important as inside and giving children opportunities to move. So you would notice if you came into our early learning area that there are things set up outside, there's things inside and children naturally, when they come in with their parents, just want to go and start touching things, feeling things, playing with things and learning through play.

Linda Sweet:

So I think that would stand out in coming to our school and that takes time and expertise and a lot of extra time on the behalf of teachers to go and source those things and maintain those things and store those things and change them routinely and replace them. So that and the relationships with the children that we have is probably what I would say would stand out. We know all of the children that come in, so not just the children in our classroom. We see it as a little mini village or a little community in itself where the children are really honoured for who they are, for their family, for their background, and we try and get to know them for who they are and what they're bringing. They've already had quite an education before they come to us at four. So getting to know them and their family, and I would pride myself on the relationships that we strive to have with children and their families.

Jenny Cole:

I've got two questions in my mind. One is are kids coming in differently? So we're hearing anecdotally that kids are coming in because of iPads and things, with less oral language and they're playing less. Are you finding that? And my second question is quite different. That's about how do you build relationships with parents so you can answer whichever one makes most sense to you.

Linda Sweet:

Okay, there has definitely been a huge shift in the way children arrive in early learning to in the time that I've been teaching.

Linda Sweet:

So I would say I feel that the community, the children that we have at our school, have pretty well-educated parents, so they are aware of these things that are going on in their life and their children's lives and they do keep themselves relatively informed and they have often, in many cases, sought out to come to a school like ours that does honour play.

Linda Sweet:

Parents are being educated, I think, through the community, through government initiatives, through childcare centres, of the importance of play and not just sticking children in front of screens. So I would say that they are aware of that, but the ongoing challenge for them is to know it and to live it. It are two different things, because they're bombarded with technology and they're busy and they've got to pay for the children to come to school. So they're busy with their own jobs and their own lives. So I see parents that are trying to manage our society, our cultural shift in themselves as well as bring their child into it, and that is challenging for them. They are so hard to do the right thing and so part of our role is guiding them of what we can see we believe is the right thing and matching it with what they think do the right thing. And so part of our role is guiding them of what we can see we believe is the right thing and matching it with what they think is the right thing, and educating them at the same time.

Linda Sweet:

But of course we've got things to learn from them. It's not all just one way, but I do think that the word is getting out there of the importance of that. We don't tend to get the parents that are there wanting their child to be. Obviously they want their child to be successful, but they're not worried about test results, which is fantastic. They want their child to be able to speak, they want their child to be able to read, they want their child to be happy, and I'm really excited by the fact that that has become happy and a well balanced, good person that's kind, empathetic, that has some resilience, and that is hard in this world, where sometimes everything is so structured and bubble wrapped for them to develop those skills at the same time. So, yeah, it is quite a challenge.

Jenny Cole:

Indeed, yeah, you do, and I love that. So the kids are different because society is different, but you've got parents who are really wanting to try and I'm hearing that you work alongside parents to do the best that we all can for their kids. Play do you have rough and tumble play, because that kind of leads to resilience. You know kids who learn that they can get knocked over and stand up again and perhaps not like someone one day and they still be friends. The next Is that part of what you do.

Linda Sweet:

Absolutely so. Social and emotional regulation and learning those skills is a key part of what we do and I think most of our parents respect that as well, that that is a key part, because children can't come to school to learn reading and writing and maths if they're not feeling safe within themselves, that they're feeling accepted and that they feel that they can take safe risks. So that balance in a school environment is really tricky because we want them to be able to take risks certainly physical risks and emotional risks, to take risks with their learning and then, when they find it hard or they might not quite do it the first time, to be able to give it a go again. And I think that's different perhaps to how I went to school. I feel like we really do focus a lot on encouraging them to be brave and have a go. At the same time, our society wants to bubble wrap them and not take some risks. So that's another part of educating the parents about that and encouraging them to allow their children to take risks and it's okay if they make a mistake, and it's not just a mistake in their learning or a mistake outside in the playground, but a mistake in a friendship something nasty that they've said and we can fix it.

Linda Sweet:

What do we do when these things go wrong? Not just punishing someone. So a real restorative practice is what we try and do by making sure that children can see the effect of what they've done on others. So it's not just about how they're feeling, but look at the emotions on this other person, look how do you think they're feeling.

Linda Sweet:

And that's really hard for young children and especially spending a lot of time on screens because they're not looking at anybody else. So actually realising that there's somebody else and what they said and did is affecting them and causing an emotional reaction is part of what we're teaching them to do and then what they can do to bring that balance back into play how to share, how to take turns and that is a key part and it keeps on going, and I think that takes time, and play is one of the best ways for that to be able to be going on. So, therefore, having those opportunities for them to engage in things naturally, but then have the scaffolding of the educators around to help them when these little speed bumps come in, and how to restore a situation back to a harmonious one where we can all get on and be happy and get on with our learning.

Jenny Cole:

So important and I'm curious do you notice? So you're teaching empathy you're teaching these days you're teaching kids to. You're teaching these days you're teaching kids to read other people's faces and body language and so forth. Do you see a flow on effect through the school of the skills that you're teaching your students when they're little?

Linda Sweet:

Absolutely so. In our school we actually have what's called our learner attributes and they sit on the front page of the formal report and then the other more curriculum orientated subject areas sit behind that. So looking at those learner attributes and there's a flow from them from early learning into our junior school, into our middle school and senior school, of how those skills develop, and so when we are planning our program, that's a really important component of what we do and we have to try and evaluate the children on that. So we need to be able to do activities and show how we've provided opportunities for them to practice those skills and how they're going with those skills. And that looks different in the different sub-schools across because developmentally there's different ways of doing it. But across our school they've developed programs in each part to help those skills come across and then they're graded on their learner attributes. Well, the general comment is what most parents want to read.

Jenny Cole:

They want to go straight to the general comment, don't they?

Linda Sweet:

Yep, I think they want to know. Do these teachers know my child? Yes, and they probably already know. It's quite easy to show how you're doing in maths or how you're doing in different subjects through other assessment tools, but how is my child going at being resilient? Does my child just fall in a heap and cry and can't get up and spends half of the lesson outside? So yeah, thinking of ways to teach that and then to evaluate that is interesting and it's exciting to evaluate.

Jenny Cole:

That is interesting and it's exciting. And so what went through my mind is in the old days some of those general comments were very judgmental, but I'm hearing you're teaching to those attributes and there's a program behind it and so, instead of Jenny is a nice girl or Jenny needs to try harder, there's something that you're evaluating them against. That's a little less. That's right, yeah.

Linda Sweet:

So the general comment is really a summary reflection of all of the learner attributes and how they've gone with all of those things, because we might mention that PE is their favourite subject or something like that, but we don't really need to talk about those curriculum areas so much in that comment. It's really about how they go as a learner, because you can learn content much. The content's one thing, but you want them to be able to understand the content, to want to be inspired, to learn more about it, to have a passion for learning, to feel good about collaborating with other people, not just be able to fill in a test and pass it. How do they go in a team? So those things are becoming more important.

Linda Sweet:

I think many adults know how important that is. We all know people that know a lot of stuff. But do you want to sit next to them? Do you want to work with them? Do you want them in your team? That's another thing. So just having that awareness of the different skill sets that we need, that children need coming out to work and be in society and be able to be adaptable, to change, try new things that they've not done before.

Jenny Cole:

A lot of people, particularly in high schools, don't understand is how highly regulated early childhood is. You've got the early years framework and various other things. How do you, as a leader in that setting, manage those compliance aspects versus the whole child? All of you know it's kind of the managerial versus the leadership. How do you manage that or how do you combine those?

Linda Sweet:

I've actually found that many of the compliance and the regulations that have been put in place have actually been to the benefit of early childhood teachers, because it actually then stipulates that, no, the kindergarten needs this much space per child and they need this much room outside. So, if anything, it provides a documentation to show to our administration or our business manager that this is actually a legality, that you have to provide this for these children. So I haven't actually found that. I've found it great that they have to provide this for these children. So I haven't actually found that.

Linda Sweet:

I've found it great that they have these standards and that we address the standards every year and we do a quality improvement plan, which would be great if it happens throughout the whole school. Actually, everybody had to look at every section of what they were doing, how their relationships were, how their leadership structure was, to look at all of those things, which is in the quality standards. I think it actually empowers me. And when you show that to our board or to our principal and you say this is what it says and we haven't got that, then they spring into action Because to pass registration they do have to have that document from their early learning coordinator or whatever person that is. Sometimes it's the primary principle that they have addressed all of those things and then therefore they won't pass registration. So I find it helpful.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, nothing like a big stick sometimes.

Linda Sweet:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If people try and minimise it and they say that doesn't really matter, and I guess it's constantly trying to say well, it does matter and we'd like to be doing this really well and this is a really good thing to market our school on saying how well we're meeting these standards and it does matter. I guess it's our way of sort of, it's not a NAPLAN test, but it's our way of saying we rate highly in this area. We would rather be judged on that than some test on how well the children know their numbers, because this is a much more well-rounded evaluation of what's going on every day in all of the areas, not just in one test on one day.

Jenny Cole:

And it requires your entire team's input. Do you have any other leaders in your centre? How does how many staff do you have? Who do you manage? What does it look like on the staffing side?

Linda Sweet:

Okay, so we have a head of primary now at our school and two deputies, and so I'm one of the deputies and I look after one section In my situation. Our early learning centre is physically separated from the rest of the school, which comes with good things and also good things that sometimes we get a bit forgotten about. But other times I'm pretty happy because we can do what we need to suit the age of the children that we're dealing with and make everything as developmentally appropriate as possible. So there's myself, and apart from that, there's no other leadership in my little area. So I have two kindergarten teachers, two pre-primary teachers, two year one teachers, plus the specialists that come in and out. Now, unfortunately or fortunately, a lot of early childhood teachers and educators are females. So we do have part-time people and I also have a big relief group of people as well. So there is a lot of people.

Linda Sweet:

All I think there's about 25 staff holding positions, including education assistants, and probably early learning is the area where we have the most education assistants in most schools to support the learning, depending on the numbers in the classrooms and perhaps additional needs that might present themselves in classrooms. So it's managing the main classroom teachers plus looking after how the specialist teachers that our school offers can fit into our programs, into our timetables, where it's actually a benefit, not a disruption to what's going on. So there's that connection and flow. So it's meaningful not just stop this now. We're going to do that, but it actually fits in seamlessly.

Linda Sweet:

The education assistants we've got are absolutely fabulous and they are just very not rewarded for the great skills that they have and abilities and passion and dedication that they have. But we've got some fantastic education assistants that support the teachers and support the children and the families in setting up the environments. They understand how to respond to the children, how to support the children. So there's probably I'd say perhaps 10 teachers and then 15 education assistants some part-time that are coming in and out and switching over, and then there's the crew of relief people and trying to have that so that everybody understands our practice and our approach and how we like to do things, where we stand, what we wear, how we respond.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, that's a tough job because you're training, supporting, developing them, but my guess is you've got a lot of responsibility up to the head of primary Busy job. How do you manage all of that? How do you stay on top of the administrivia and prioritise what needs to be done?

Linda Sweet:

I'd like to say that I was really good at that, but that's probably not one of my best skill sets. I just keep paddling, really really hard and making it look like it's okay.

Linda Sweet:

People say that I don't look stressed and I'm always looking happy but underneath I am paddling really hard. I think that in a big school also there are structures and supports. I'm not doing everything by myself, so there is an administration team of lots of different systems. So I'm not completely alone in that and my head of primary is there as well. But I guess the actual practice of dealing with the children and the families is my biggest responsibility. But then I also do all the relief staffing and I do the recruitment of people and that I probably enjoy that part the most. I also have a teaching component as well, which sometimes I teach sport, which for the year ones, and I really enjoy that because I absolutely can't be doing anything on my computer and my parents can't reach me and I'm actually on the oval or in the hall doing something physical with my body and also seeing that side of the children where they've got good endorphins running through their body and seeing a different side of them, getting them excited. So I really enjoy that and even though sometimes I feel like I've got a million things to do, I always feel better when I come back, having moved my body myself and seeing the joy that the children get out of it and chatting with them, even just moving from the classroom out to the sport area, the conversations I get to have with them, so that's really good.

Linda Sweet:

I think I've worked that I will never get everything done and I've accepted. I've got better at accepting. I just can't do everything. I do have a team that do pick up things very easily. They offer to pitch in and we have our own little staff meetings every week. So everybody has a shared idea of things that need to be done and I feel pretty good that I let go of micromanaging the teachers themselves in the classroom. I feel like my work's been done in onboarding them and setting them up and having big conversations of what we value and how we want things to look, and coming together with the planning of the different year levels and how they connect. So the kindy teachers plan and program together, the pre-primary teachers do, and the year one teachers, but they're not that. We all come together so that there's flow within that.

Linda Sweet:

And.

Linda Sweet:

I can sort of lift myself out a little bit from what's going on in the nitty gritty of the classroom. I trust that they know how to do their initial program. I trust that they're doing the maths program. I walk around and I'm in the classroom seeing that happening all the time, so I don't weigh myself down with are they doing that? It's a place where they put their documentation and I can open it up and I can look at it at any time. It's on display in the classroom. But I don't bother myself with that because I really have trust in them and I think they have trust in me that I go and do all the other things to make sure that they can get on with what they need to do, yeah, and that I'm there when things get a little wobbly. They've got a difficult parent. Certain things are happening. Parent certain things are happening. There's learning problems, special needs that have emerged.

Linda Sweet:

that need to be taken care of and yeah, I'm there to do all of that.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, I love that. Setting those clear onboarding properly setting clear expectations and setting up systems and structures allows you to just hand over then to the teachers and say I trust you and I'm here if you need me. That's ideal leadership as far as I'm concerned.

Linda Sweet:

Yeah Well, doing the rosters as well, knowing where everyone is and everyone's a part of having a look at those rosters, trying to do things that are fair, so people don't, and explaining to them why things are a certain way and people don't then question that I encourage them. If they do see something that's not quite right or they feel that it's not as equitable as it could be, to come and see me. So I feel like having that shared vision and shared responsibility and trusting in that has helped me to lift out of some of that Brilliant.

Jenny Cole:

Now you said in the information that you sent me that you have an annual development of a staff charter, which I think is quite unique, and I'm sure it kind of leads on from what we've just talked about, which is shared understandings. But talk to me what your staff charter is and how you go about designing that.

Linda Sweet:

Oh, I was just actually thinking about how I was going to do that this year, jenny, so I was doing that today. So a charter is something that is through the ruler approach, which is something that our school looks at, and they encourage our teachers to do a charter in the classroom, rather than a set of rules of what you can and can't do in a classroom. But how do you want to feel in the classroom? And before teachers go off and do that, it's really ideal if teachers have decided how they want to feel when they come to school. So that is what a charter is having a conversation conversation which we will do in the coming days with I will do with my staff about how we want to feel and come up with maybe seven words.

Linda Sweet:

There can be a few more, a few less really key, important words where everyone's sort of saying no, I think that's more important than that and we talk about why those words are important to us and then, after we've come up with those words, we have to say what are we going to do to make sure that that's how we feel when we come to school and that's when we come up?

Linda Sweet:

Well, I need to be authentic or I need to be a good listener. So what are the things we actually need to do? And so we talk about that and we have it and it's displayed in our staff room and it gets referred to and when the children start, the teachers do that same process with their classroom. And talking about the children's feelings, so talking about what their feelings are for a start, because the very young ones may not have the labels for the different feelings that they experience and some of their feelings might be just happy, sad, but we try and build on that vocabulary. They might know angry or frustrated, but we try and build on those words and then get them to say how do you want to feel when you come to school? What's the best way to feel when you're coming to learn? And another we're often refer to in zones of regulation, to feeling in the green is an ideal place to be. So we really want to be feeling optimum for learning and for engaging with our friends. So it's an idealistic thing that we set up.

Linda Sweet:

But we also then talk about what do we do when we're not feeling that way or our friend isn't feeling that way and what are some of the things that we can do to bring that back into balance? So it's having those words and having that displayed and when something's happening, drawing attention to that, you are really including everyone in that group. So using those words from the charter or even saying is that something on our charter? I don't remember. You know, I don't know if you're thinking about our charter right now and just referring them back to that. What are some of the things you could do? Go and have a look at some of the things you could do to help yourself feel that way and giving children that responsibility for thinking okay, I want to feel like that, I need to go and do that, or how can I get myself feeling the way?

Jenny Cole:

I need to feel Taking personal responsibility instead of blaming others. It's like well, how can I feel more like that and what can?

Linda Sweet:

I do, and with our staff as well, just saying well, you want to feel like what are you going to do about this? What are you doing? Are you doing all those things? Am I doing all of those things? Or was that really respectful when I said that? Was that completely truthful? Was I being authentic? Or did I just go along with it because everybody else said it, or patient, I was going to say so.

Jenny Cole:

Respectful, truthful, patient. What other words have turned up over the years?

Linda Sweet:

Confidence yeah, they want to feel confident in what they're doing. So they want to know the content of what they're doing and why they're doing, to be able to articulate it to their families, to the children. They want to know the program, if they're using a program. They want to feel confident in that. One of the other things that I find people want to feel trusted that actually shows up. They want to feel that people believe in them to get on with it. They also know, then, to have that they need to be responsible. So if you said I want to feel trusted, then what do we need to do? That we need to be responsible. So that's where I'm saying that I would give people that responsibility.

Linda Sweet:

I'm not going to be checking what time you turned up every day. I will notice, but I am expecting that it's not something that I'm going to be tutting over. Obviously, yeah. So what are some other words? Inspired, yeah. So if they want to feel inspired every day, they want to feel enthusiastic. What are we going to do to get to that? So, yeah, they want to feel included. Yeah. So I was just thinking today of a word of feeling informed. I think sometimes, when people aren't informed about bigger decisions that are going on in schools. I feel that they then feel a lack of respect or a lack of knowledge and understanding of some of the decisions that are going on. So I think being informed or having knowledge about things that are going on in the school is being informed or having knowledge about things that are going on in the school is important and that communication it's either communication getting the right balance of how much communication and what is the best communication to give is important for in leadership.

Jenny Cole:

I think Not being scared to give people that information. Yeah, I had a conversation with a group of people around this the other day. People will really happily be over-communicated with if it's around those key things that are important. So if the school or the centre's got two or three things that you're focusing on, they'll happily be over-communicated with about those. They want to be clear about where we're heading. What they don't want too much communication about is the stuff they don't want to have 50,000 emails around bus timetables. They're just not interested.

Jenny Cole:

But they'll happily talk about kids and their results and their programs and those sorts of things. They want directional communication, make sure they're acting in the right way. Yeah.

Linda Sweet:

So we do what's called daily notices who's in today, all of those sort of mechanical things it does take quite a lot of my time to do, but people really like to know who's in, who's replacing them, what's going on, what's happening with chapel time or what's happening with this today. And they need a memory jogger because, as you know, jenny, schools are so fluid and things change very quickly due to weather. Do somebody didn't turn up, something hasn't gone to plan, and so those notices being delivered and trying to get that right is a challenge, but most of the staff say they get a lot of value out of having that. It's just in dot form.

Linda Sweet:

I don't take paragraphs, just this is what's going on and any reminders that are going on, I think also really good things like what's going on in the staff room, so-and-so's birthday or all of those little things. We also include in that really important things about what's going on for certain families or certain children. So there's a degree of confidentiality where we're not trying to make. It's about informing people of how to be responding to children that might be having a difficult time or a parent that might be having a difficult time if they happen to pass us, and to make sure that our reaction and our responses are consistent across all of our staff. So having all of that delivered to our staff without being onerous and having to have a meeting every day is part of what I try and do.

Jenny Cole:

Oh, it's so important because in early childhood, like in ed support, sometimes our kids can't communicate with us the things that we need to know, and we're so interdependent as staff that everybody needs to know about some kids and some processes. And so, you know, daily notices would probably be weekly notices. In a high school you probably wouldn't need to communicate that often, but it's a good strategy. There's just one thing I want to talk about before I forget it, which is there's a lot of women in early childhood and not a lot of men, and it's a vicious circle. If there were more men, would we value early childhood more, or do we not? Because it's not valued, we're not getting men. What's the latest thinking there about the benefits and drawbacks of too many women and not enough men in early childhood?

Linda Sweet:

Well, I think it's really important that there would be more men in early childhood because I think young children need to have positive male role models around them. We have very varying home family units these days and having a representation of males as well as females is really important for children. So I would love for that and it's a real challenge and I've spoken to some of the professors at the universities about how do they attract men to university to do early childhood? It's a vicious cycle because young men would go. Why would I do that? Hardly anyone will promote me to it. You know you don't get the same opportunities, for people still have a thought in their head that they are not as clever, as smart, as important or know as much if they teach young children as they do if they taught year 12 maths. So somehow you're better at running a school because you can teach maths than if you can. But it's not logical. But that's just in history the way that it's been, and so I guess young men would see that as a deterrent and just the view across culturally that it's not seen as something to be important. I do think that that's changing. I do see so many dads on roster and so many dads really putting in a great deal of effort with their young children and valuing what's going on with their children at school. So I do see a shift for the young people coming into universities.

Linda Sweet:

I think there are some males that do it, and I guess for them to be going out to good schools to have good experiences, to see how they can have an impact is really important, and I would employ a male. I just don't get very many that apply and it's quite tricky. I guess in childcare as well, they struggle with the same thing, unfortunately with protective behaviours there's, statistically, men don't stack up very well in that area and that is a concern, and so there's a few things that we have to look at there. How do we give men the opportunity, how do we make children safe and putting all those things together. So it is the cultural thing that's really taking some time.

Linda Sweet:

I think if childcare workers and education assistants were paid more, then more men might be attracted to it. But it is these traditionally more caring, nurturing roles which traditionally have all been women, so therefore not seemingly in society as being valued so much. So I'm hopeful that over time that will change. In other countries it's the complete opposite, that it's early childhood is seen as crucially important. So raising that the standard and raising the profile of the importance of early childhood. They do learn more than they'll ever learn in their lives before they're seven, it is the most important time, so getting some men on board with that would be fantastic.

Jenny Cole:

I know I know you do have a lot of teachers and others from the university, so I'm sure you're pushing that on all sorts of on all. I'm personally following a couple of early childhood teachers on Instagram who are male and I just love it. I just their energy is something different and it's just nice to see. So I think hopefully the tide will turn and you'll start seeing some more and you'll be able to employ some soon.

Linda Sweet:

Yeah, yeah, we have had one come through university and do a prac and I hope he's gone on and become one of those teachers. And we also have a fantastic music specialist at our school who takes the children in the early learning centre and he is a rock star to the young children. So they do, and we have other males that come in there and they do a fantastic job. So they're great role models for others who might want to come in and do that.

Jenny Cole:

So talking about role models, I'm sure you're a role model to other leaders or other aspirants in early childhood or in early learning. What kind of advice do you give to new or aspiring leaders, either in your sector or elsewhere in the school? What would you tell a new or aspiring leader.

Linda Sweet:

There's lots of right ways to do things and sometimes you just have to pick one and lots of people will have lots of different opinions.

Linda Sweet:

It's really good to hear the different points of view and at the end of the day, when you're a leader, it ends up being you, and sometimes the decision isn't a clear cut decision.

Linda Sweet:

So you have to make a decision, otherwise nothing happens, and sometimes some people won't consider that the most the best decision. But you just have to live with that and know that you did your best in weighing up the pros and cons and in the end you just have to keep moving forward and you can always reflect after and go yep, perhaps that wasn't the best decision, but I had to make a decision and, based on the evidence, that's what I did. And you then just have to keep moving forward and not beat yourself up and not listen, because not everybody's going to like you and not everybody's going to like every decision that you make, and not everybody has the same perhaps, philosophy or values. It's really good if you can get everybody in agreement there, because then it makes things a lot easier, but that's hard in schools, because we get all sorts of people coming from all different places. But yeah, being okay with making a decision and just keeping going forward.

Jenny Cole:

And then not everyone will like you. That's often a lesson we learn over and over and over again. You know that we cannot make everybody happy.

Linda Sweet:

And it's hard. I don't know, I feel like whether it's because I'm from early childhood and we just like making everybody happy. Maybe I'm a female, I don't know. But it is quite a challenge to get over that and then to try and take a deep breath and a lot of people on the sidelines will think that they could have done something better, but then they would never stand up and have a go at it, and it's very different if they ever do so, I think, remembering that that they haven't actually stepped up. It's you that?

Jenny Cole:

stepped up. Yeah, and that self. It could be confidence, it could be self-belief or it could be just I'm the person in the chair that has to make the decision, and just making it, and knowing that you're not going to please everybody and those other people aren't in your chair and if they were, they would be making a decision, but it's your job, yeah.

Linda Sweet:

I think also that added on to that is you can't always tell everyone everything that's going on, no, so that is quite frustrating because you would really like to tell people a bit more, but it's not appropriate. You just have to hope that they trust you, and that takes time and it takes just trying to be truthful in everything, truthful and fair in everything you do and hopefully that that builds the trust so that they just believe you that in the end you get the job done. You want to get the job done. We can't bog ourselves down. We've got to keep moving forward.

Jenny Cole:

Yeah, you can waste a lot of intellectual energy trying to second guess yourself or worry about what other people think, but there's a job to be done, and that's to make kids the best that they can be.

Linda Sweet:

Yeah, so having staff meetings where it's just about always all women, we can end up going around and around and around and talking about all the. Maybe we should do this, maybe we should do that and drawing that in and just going rightio, we about it enough, let's move on to something else.

Jenny Cole:

It's time consuming, but it does pay off and it is worth it in the end anything that any final comments that you'd like to make, anything we've not covered today that you'd like to talk about?

Linda Sweet:

I think when I was thinking about coming on to do this, jenny, I thought about what professional learning that has been most beneficial to me. You did ask me to have a think about that and I have had great opportunities and had exposure, including going to Italy to read your Amelia. So I have had some great professional learning, but I would say that probably one of the most that's something more about educational philosophy and pedagogy. But as far as being a leader, I think understanding people and I get a great deal of joy of learning about other people and why they are the way they are and the different personality profiles it's helped me to learn about myself but also to learn about others and to be able to identify that. So I looked at all the things that I've done over time and I've done a colour profiling thing, done the VI character traits, and recently I did an agile leadership program and they talked about Sisal's leadership wheel, which also had some leader personality traits in it, and I have found that really helpful in identifying things in myself but also the strengths of people's personalities and ways of being, even though we're all different, and seeing how they are and how for me to work with them and how to bring out the best in them and see where their strengths and where their gaps are, Because in any team you can't all have the same strengths and personalities. You need a variety. So I do think learning about one personality types and actually looking at that with your staff it helps you. Look at it we do it naturally with the children in our class but to do it with your staff and recognize their traits.

Linda Sweet:

I have a colleague that just loves curriculum and she loves collecting all the data, doing all the checkups, all the little tests, and she has wall to wall little charts of all the results in her office. She just loves it and I love that. She loves it because I don't want to do that. So for me, I think just understanding that about me. I have to know how to do it. But is that my strengths and is that where I want to channel my energy? No, but she loves that and she's really good at that. So together we can be a part of a team where we are covering all bases.

Jenny Cole:

So yeah, I love that and you're right. I think teachers do a lot of this intuitively, particularly with their kids. But we're pretty good with other adults. But sometimes it's a bit like emotions, unless we've got a language to describe it. Sometimes it's not really brought into our consciousness and we just rub along with people and we're not quite sure why. But sometimes when you go, I love working with that person because she does all the details and the data and I do all of the relationship stuff. That's what makes a great team is when we understand each other's traits and strengths and we can articulate it. It's not just doing it naturally, it's about I've got words for it as well.

Linda Sweet:

Yeah, yeah, and respecting that in the other person and actually seeing that I'm envious of these things other people have and it doesn't mean I'm not going to develop them, but I can see that that's just so great that they have that. And I think when our whole team becomes aware of these things in each other, we can work to those strengths and also we can help each other. Where we've got a few little gaps someone that's not so great on Excel or someone that struggles with a certain thing people pitch in and help them. Yet when it comes to something very creative, they've got all the ideas and yeah. So I do think that's worth investing in that deep understanding of people, because that's the business we're in.

Jenny Cole:

Yes, exactly

Linda Sweet:

Little people, middle-sized people and adult people,

Jenny Cole:

Happy people, sad people you know the whole range.

Jenny Cole:

Linda, it's been delightful talking to you today for all sorts of reasons. The first one is I have to go to a big high school in a week's time and do their staff charter with them, and so I now know exactly what I'm going to do. I had all of these ideas, and your version of a staff charter has just crystallized it for me, so thank you for that. The other reason why I've loved this is for the listeners of the podcast. Linda and I went to primary school together and high school, but we sort of went separate ways in education and we've just relatively recently reconnected and it's just been delightful to know you as an adult, not just a kid who plays in the park across the road. So thank you for joining me today, and we shall make sure that people can, if they want to, find you and hear a little bit more about your school. There'll be links in the podcast notes. So, from me and everyone listening, thank you very much, Linda Sweet.

Linda Sweet:

Thank you so much, Jenny.