The Bright Growth Podcast (for Wedding Creatives)
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The Bright Growth Podcast (for Wedding Creatives)
#002 Travel Photographer Matt Dutile: A Journey Off the Beaten Path
Our interview with Matt Dutile, travel photographer, is our first interview in the Road Less Traveled Series. We want to have discussions with people that have a fork in the road and choose a different path than the one they were currently on.
What drives someone to abandon the stability of a PR firm in Arizona and brave the unforgiving landscape of New York's photography scene during a financial crisis? Meet Matt Dutile, a remarkable NYC-based photographer, who shares his exhilarating journey of rediscovering his passion and turning it into a thriving career. From a pivotal trip to Australia that reignited his love for the lens to making calculated moves in a competitive industry, Matt's story is one of resilience, strategic planning, and artistic evolution.
Journey with us as we explore how Matt captures the soul of a destination through his travel photography. Learn the art of storytelling by framing vast penguin colonies in Antarctica or catching the perfect lighting at Bhutan’s Tiger's Nest Monastery. Matt reveals the secrets behind building authentic connections with locals and how a simple Polaroid camera can open doors to compelling and genuine portraits. Discover how Matt's personal aesthetic and meticulous planning create images that are not only beautiful but deeply immersive.
In our conversation, we also touch on the enriching balance between cultural exploration and professional challenges. Hear about Matt's adventures with semi-nomadic yak herders in Bhutan and the magic of lesser-known sites like Oaxaca. We discuss the growing demand for interior photography and the intricacies of balancing travel with commercial projects. Whether you're an aspiring photographer or a seasoned traveler, Matt's insights into capturing the essence of diverse environments and his upcoming photo workshops promise to inspire and educate. Join us for an episode filled with stories, strategies, and a celebration of the world's hidden gems.
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Well, welcome to the first episode of the Wandering Mr Missy podcast. And today, as our first ever guest, we have an outstanding photographer, Matt Dutile, who, you know among the many talents, is really a tremendous travel photographer.
Speaker 2:So thank you.
Speaker 1:Matt, will you do me a favor and expand on?
Speaker 2:that yeah, sure, I'm New York City based. Expand on that. Uh, yeah, sure, I'm uh new york city based. Uh, I'd say my key tenets are travel, portraiture and interiors, and uh, I've been doing this for uh 15 years little over 15 years now, which is crazy to say when I think about it and I'm like when's it really? Has it been that long, have we? You know, it's been so far and yet so soon to go that's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had that way back when in arizona at the time was you so prior to you becoming a professional photographer, you were getting more into. I remember you doing really, really good lifestyle work and that was actually a progression from what you were doing. Can you get into what you were and kind of how you got from there to here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I was working in Arizona at a PR firm. I went to Arizona State University and came out of the Cronkite School for Journalism there and then moved that into PR. So I had played around with a camera back in high school for darkroom classes, but not really connected with it at all at that point. So I put it away, went to college. So I went to college to have some fun. You know, I grew up in cold New Hampshire and moved to sunny Arizona and I got into this PR job and we actually had some like grip and grin, charity events, things like that, and I wanted to pick up a camera just to catalog some of that.
Speaker 2:I had some friends who had Nikon D80s at the time, I think they were, and they love just taking photos and sharing them and I was like, well, this is kind of interesting. I remember sort of liking this back in high school. So I just picked up a camera again with the aim of you know, capture some work events. Uh, we had a trip coming up with friends to australia in a couple months so I was like, well, that's really exciting, be nice to take some photos on that. And very quickly, just like it, clicked with me. This time, uh, I like to call it like the beams of Jesus rays, the epiphany moment, where you're like, oh, this is it, Do this you know, yeah, it just it clicked quickly and I started shooting with people and lifestyle is really like the imagery I'd been looking at.
Speaker 2:That was inspiring me, that kind of like super fun, playful, the Coca-Cola ads, you know, your T-Mobile and AT&T, and all the friends gathered together and having fun and skateboarding and what a wonderful time.
Speaker 3:And so that's.
Speaker 2:I guess, kind of the imagery I gravitated to at first and started shooting that. So I started shooting with friends and then some models, and then I started working with the modeling agencies in Arizona and shooting test cards and just test shoots to really build up a portfolio and book as I'm figuring out how to use this camera and what to do. So that's really where I started out and through that got decent enough quickly to start shooting paid test cards. I get some entry catalog work. When I realized it was a thing I wanted to do, I treated it sort of like a business too.
Speaker 2:So, it's not only how do you make the craft better, how do you make the images better, but how do I reach out to people, how do I put up the website, build the things, reach out an email that are going to get me work. So, yeah, I get these little entry catalog shoots, weight loss shoots, things like that.
Speaker 3:So people were my primary focus to begin with, uh, especially when you guys met me well, and I remember when we well, when we were sitting there talking in our kitchen and scottsdale, and you were saying you're moving to new york, and yeah, exactly what you were going to do. And I remember when you left I said to keith, because photography is a challenge, I mean we all know that's not an easy business, especially long-term.
Speaker 3:That, like you know, you've done and we've done, and I remember saying to you, like he's going to do it, I mean this is going to work out so well for him because, a, you were talented but B, all the things you said, you had the business and you had the drive. So it was just fantastic, like you could just tell. There was like a magic too, when, when we met you, yeah, thanks but, again it's still again, it's going from actually working at a pr firm.
Speaker 1:So you legitimately had a job and you went to school for a specific thing and oh yeah, I just jumped yeah instead of this I'm in arizona, I must go. I'm making money here, I have an actual job, I've got a good side hustle and like, no, I'm gonna drop it all. And I moved to new york city like the most cutthroat place in the entire US.
Speaker 2:Yeah it was crazy in retrospect. I mean, lily just cut the cord and moved and I thought New York was the place to be to go and assist. I mean, I'd seen the market in Arizona and there's some great photographers out there, but it's not like the wealth of people and, especially if you want to get into assisting and learning more from a diverse range of photographers, new York's the place to be. On that, of course, I decided to do it during the 07-08 market crash.
Speaker 2:So that was brilliant, yeah, so not only is anyone not hiring assistants, they're not hiring photographers to start in general for jobs, like I remember everything, and so it was a fortuitously terrible timing.
Speaker 3:So then, how did, or what was the timeline on getting to where you are? We'll say where you are now, obviously, yeah, so.
Speaker 2:I ended up coming to New York and doing some of the same things. I had the connections from the modeling agencies in Arizona which connected to me to their New York branches, started shooting a couple, paid test comps for them, kept up with some of the catalog people and again did some of those like Livestrong weight loss stories, women's world weight loss stories, things like that that would just like eat me a little bit along at a time. Women's world weight loss stories, things like that that would just like eat me a little bit along at a time. I did a little bit of work for the New York Times on some small day projects and things like New York Mac Grub Street.
Speaker 2:I would go and try to hustle and shoot like $15 restaurant listings and string eight of those together in a day, because their job was to create like a catalog of every restaurant in New York City with, like you know, eight to ten photos at each one. So they had nothing to pay for it for such a big environment. But it was work that was always churning, uh. So I, you know I did the cheap stuff just to string along and try to make a buck and eat some ramen the next day, you know, and not the good kind of ramen I eat now that couple noodles stuff.
Speaker 1:You know there's a difference back then so, uh, it was just stringing along.
Speaker 2:I did have some assisting jobs, um, assisted uh probably six or seven different photographers on sort of one day, two day projects. Unfortunately, I am the world's worst assistant, which is terrible, because it is such a phenomenal way to learn from people. You're in that environment, you're seeing what they're shooting, how they're interacting with crew, how the production is put together. Like I encourage people, if you can still do it to this day, assist if you want to get into commercial photography, because it's such a great way to learn. Um, but I am so bad at it, so so bad. I would just like drop um scrims and like feel like I was lost. Uh, someone made me the third ac um on a on a shoot one time and I drove the equipment van into a parking garage and scrape the hell out of the entire side of it on the way. So I was like well, I hope you got the insurance.
Speaker 3:So I was just bad at it.
Speaker 2:So I it didn't last long for me, so I was like I gotta just hustle and figure out how to do this on my own. So, looking, I'm sorry, I'm just going to say, while we've been talking, the photography aspect of this for me.
Speaker 3:So I was like I gotta just hustle and figure out how to do this on my own.
Speaker 1:So looking, oh sorry I'm just gonna say, while we've been talking, uh, the photography aspect of this part, let's show people that are watching some actual photographs that again. So, while uh, being an assistant might not have been your, uh, your cup of tea, not so much yeah, but you're apparently really good with the. Uh, the camera is going to wait so much more.
Speaker 2:Such a shame too. Like I can run my own sets, perfectly great, but when it's someone else's set, I'm a hot mess. Trust me, I hear you so yeah, I guess this is the Amazon in Peru. This is Pacaya Samaria Reserve, down the river from Iquitos. So Iquitos in Peru is kind of cut off from the rest of the country. You can either only fly in or barge out through the Amazon River and its tributaries.
Speaker 3:And what was your assignment that had you here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this one was last, uh, last year. Boy, time is a flat circle, um, let me tell you I was thinking on that, like is it two years, but I think it's last, last april, um, and this was for travel and luxury and it was covering uh new luxury riverboat that had opened. So obviously tough assignments on those ones. You got a big old suite full glass windows and, yeah, we were sailing up and down the Amazon River and some of its tributaries for four nights and kind of exploring into each one, meeting different small communities. It was a gastronomic tour, so there was a chef who's well known in peru, who was there and really working with the local ingredients and how they put those together, and uh, yeah, all the wildlife.
Speaker 3:It's a fantastic so just because I'm, I've never been in the spot like where I've had been on a beautiful, beautiful assignment like this. So what? What are your marching orders Like? What are the parameters of? Do they know? What is the laundry list of what they ask?
Speaker 2:It depends. Each publication is a little different. Some will give me very tight shot list, like we want you to capture all of these things um. Others are like we know what you do, go out and do it um sometimes you get uh, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:So sometimes you get the shot list, um, or at least like the story copy from the writer if they went a month, two, three beforehand and and so you have a sense of what their story is and what you want to look in for visuals to help complement that To some degree. There's like you want to find little connections and others. It's really just figure out the vibe of the story and how that illustrates their words. So each publication is a bit different. Each give you a bit more leeway on what to find, what to look for. And again, the market these days is, if they're hiring you, they know what you do, you have kind of a consistency of voice and vision, so they have a sense of what they'll get from you stylistically, this is absolutely stunning, amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The other, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's hard to wrap your head around so that's really what I wanted to illustrate on some of those is uh, this is in in arctica, obviously. Uh, the left is an ice landing in hanus bay. Uh, south of the antarctic, and the right is in Port Charcot, beautiful spot with a lot of penguin rookeries. And yeah, really, what I try to bring to some of these environments is a sense of scale, a sense of like how large this amount of ice is and this is the teeniest fraction of one little spot right, and you can see the people walking through it and how large those, those snow build-ups are there.
Speaker 1:Um, it's amazing they talk about when the uh, the glaciers are calving and you're and you're and they that they look impressive. But when they actually mention just how much ice has just fallen into the water and that it doesn't seem like it made a dent, you're like, oh my god, yeah, there's a lot of ice in the world.
Speaker 2:I mean you pass by in antarctica, some of these icebergs where you're like everything's the the coolest iceberg you've ever seen and they're just towering behemoths. Some of them they're like that's bigger than the ship we're on right that's only the part you can see and that's the part you can see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so much bigger yeah, oh, you're speaking of workers here. Yeah, it's awesome uh, yeah, this.
Speaker 2:So in an environment like that, every environment comes with something different right, and in arctica it's going to be the landscapes and the wildlife, because that's really what's there to show. Now, I always try to bring um people and scale into focus as well, so that's thus why you have the other shots where you've got the ship and people in that. But you have to show, kind of what this is. And I I was looking and found this frame where it really felt like the penguin colony was kind of endless, going into the distance. Um, and it was. It's tens of thousands of penguins, you know, clustered in this area, uh, and I saw these ones popping up and down on the rocks and one had topped down.
Speaker 2:So I knew if I would just wait, I could probably get one uh you know, highlighted with a little sense of action to break out from the scale of them. Happy feet, exactly so mine. For travel photography. What I always say is it's story building.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:What separates a good travel assignment, good imagery from um or single good images from a total good feature, is the story you put it together as Um so you have to have this rounded sense of of place, of details, of people, of food, if it's the right, you know, all these go together into what is the experience of the destination or the thing you are doing. So, like I've seen many photographers go to Antarctica, right, and they'll come back with, like, truly incredible wildlife captures and even so, much better than I could do. It's just that's their focus. It's amazing is, uh, say, purely on what this particular penguin group does, or this seal, or things like that, or um, then you need more of a rounded sense, you need to tell more of the story, what the full experience was those people coming in on the ice landings, the, the penguins, the food that was on the ship, the ship, uh, spaces itself, right, um, it's something I encourage people to do with their travel. Photography is instead of just that.
Speaker 2:Like I stood here, I pointed the camera and took a shot think about everything that goes into what you're experiencing and how you visually put that together yeah again, we, we can't agree more again yeah, we take it right out of our out of again.
Speaker 1:you take it out of our mouth because it's been in your mouth for a really long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this was in Bhutan, which is a favorite destination of mine. It's just such an incredible country, so unique, the people are amazing. So two different setups One, the, the famous taksang monastery, tiger's nest, um, outside paro, pretty iconic shot everyone's seen. Um, this one I actually went to in the afternoon. Everyone was saying all the guys were like we go in the morning, we go in the morning, but some other photographer had been had actually included me in that. Well, the morning's nice, but the sun's actually behind it, so it's sort of all backlit. Um, and I got lucky we had a sunny day so we scrambled to go for the afternoon and you get that wonderful light on the side of it, kind Beautiful, yeah. And then the left is a festival in Bumtang Valley, jombe Lakhaking, which is a temple there, a very old 8th century temple, and the Bhutnis come out fully dressed in their beautiful ceremonial garbs, formal wear for these festival days. It's, you know, it's a day for everyone to show off and to celebrate and it's just it's, it's really wonderful to see.
Speaker 2:So I went around and and, uh, found people to take different portraits of as we're going around, and I would just ask them hey, you can I take, you take your shot and, um, I always bring with me a little polaroid camera, um, so it's a sort of a one for you, one for me. Uh, it's a way to give back while you're traveling too. Um, really opens doors to connect with people, uh, because if you have something that you can give and present to them and kind of see that smile, it's a new engagement. Um, it's a better way to get in the doors with people who may be more hesitant on the shot. So this group of young girls is one of them. I was like, oh, I'll have a photo for you and then you can take one for me.
Speaker 2:And they were like, oh okay, you know they love that. And I think there's people who can just kind of like level you with their look and just have that stare.
Speaker 1:I want to just add on the shot of the monastery. Again, it's a good illustration of, again, an iconic view of it. But everybody goes for the same shot. They go for the morning shot. They get that. You actually decided. Well, as opposed to getting the morning shot, I'm going to take the one again. The shot less traveled and you get something.
Speaker 2:You take the same scene but get a different shot, which is cool yeah, and sometimes you just have to make your own decisions on those, based off of what your personal aesthetic is, um, what kind of visuals you gravitate to, the style you gravitate to, um, and maybe just, uh, having either a sense of the light, or again, how you want to put together a story, cause I can't tell you how many times I've been told, like by either guides or people in the area, like, oh, that's it, this is the spot, this is the photo spot, go there and I get there. I'm like this is not the spot, like you know, or is not the right time to spot, like I don't ask people any advice on sunsets anymore because invariably someone always sends you to the hill looking at the sun setting, which is visually wonderful to appreciate, but for a photo it's the same orange ball in the sky hitting the same horizon every single place you go to. Far more interesting is turning around and what is the sun hitting, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes more interesting is turning around and what is the sun hitting, you know. Yes, so that's more on how I orient on, like you know, what's to the side, what is what's the sun directing onto, versus just another orange ball in the sky setting, you know yeah, depending on, is like I remember seeing what's going to say, like the, what are the iron, so some a mountain range in colorado and uh I remember seeing once the was there with a friend.
Speaker 1:I'm like looking at this, wow, it's a bunch of rocks. It's not really that interesting like, but it's called the iron something. Well, you know, I'm thinking that it's probably when the sun hits it, just right there probably glows red because of the iron deposits. So let's come here at that just before dawn so I can catch when it's, and exactly for about a 10 minute window of the entire 10 on the other side too. So 20 minutes of the entire day. These are gorgeous.
Speaker 2:Then suddenly the rest of the day, they're just mad it's cool and it's flat and yeah, I mean, timing is everything with photography the light the light is everything for travel photography. I had early in my career Phillip Lee Harvey, who's a very well-known lonely planet photographer. He gave me some advice because I went out and sought input from people as I got into travel and I don't know if I can curse on here, but we're going for it.
Speaker 2:He said don't take great photos in bad light, is the paraphrase of it. You know so it's. You don't want to be in an amazing spot, but be there at 12 pm, at noon yeah yes, sure, there's a great frame here, but the light is not there for it. So make sure you keep those considerations in mind and, uh, you gotta wake up at 4 am and get out there like that's the only way to do good morning light hold on.
Speaker 3:We didn't talk about yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So this, yeah, so this is in Bhutan again. It's a Gangte Monastery, another head spiritual kind of area of the country, and this is just a nice early morning. In November and December the skies clear up really beautifully towards the winter and you get this just wonderful atmosphere of the novice monks kind of playing around, sweeping the courtyard, joking around. So I try to find those moments of life, you know, those little, like I call them, found moments, whereas you just sort of felt like you wandered into a spot and just were an outside observer and it's clicked without being also a direct engagement.
Speaker 2:As opposed to say the the portrait before. That's clearly a direct portrait. Subject engagement with the little girl. This is just sort of a a found.
Speaker 3:So what when you're you, before you go, the research that you do, but then, once you're there, what sort of connection do you feel that you get? Do you feel that you're just an observer or do you get in with it? Looked like you, you know, with that, especially with that oh no, I usually get directly involved.
Speaker 2:I mean, my favorite part of traveling is I love meeting people, I love making those connections um learning about their culture or just their personal stories um to me.
Speaker 2:That's really what drives so much of my interest in travel and what I want people to see from my work and take out of it. So something like this just happened to be. We wandered through the doors and I saw the scene happening Okay, so you got to click that photo and get that quick before they really settle out. But then I go up to them and ask like, hey, can we take photos? Are we okay with that? Is there someone I can talk to and engage in some portraits, so things like that.
Speaker 2:I think you know, when it's a little far away, scenes like this, and you have to capture a slice of life that's not featuring any one person, it's okay to quickly grab that, that photo. Most of the times, though, like 95% of the times you go and you seek out permission first and you make sure and, and, honestly, if they'd come back and said, hey, we really don't allow photos here, well, this shot would have just been buried anyways. You know, there's no point being a traveler somewhere if you're not, um, appreciating and respecting the place and the culture that you go to.
Speaker 3:Well said again, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh wow.
Speaker 1:Bhutan.
Speaker 2:Bhutan is, for me, one of the most visually interesting countries. I love it. I'm leading a series of workshops there over the coming year, kind of tailored to people who want to just travel and experience things differently. This may be them, like I want to learn more about photography, or I just want to go to some really cool places and we'll talk about some presenting visual stories as well.
Speaker 2:This is a community called Merak in the Far East. It's a Brokba community, which are these semi-nomadic yak herders. You can see the man in there. I believe it's actually a sheep wool jacket when it's red, but it's a very traditional style they wear Helps wick away the rain as they're out herding. And the community itself is a thousand or so people on the slope of a mountain up at 11,000 feet, so it's very far removed. About 200 or so tourists a year is what make it there is what they say.
Speaker 2:So it's definitely a more remote destination and I love those kinds of places because you're connecting with people in a different way. They're not oversaturated by tourism and like, yeah, okay, you, you, there's. There's a genuine sense of welcoming and hospitality. Um, so, like this man, uh and his family invited us into their home and, uh, their daughter spoke english well, because they all learned english as kids in the school. Um, he didn't, but she was able to talk and translate with us. I've got a guide too. You have to travel around with a guide in Bhutan. So we're all working, communicating together. I found this wonderful light by the window and I was like hey, come here. And it just creates this dramatic sculpting to a portrait. I do like a bit of moodiness and drama.
Speaker 3:I've definitely been told that in my images and when I got hired on assignments.
Speaker 2:They're like give us the matt moodiness okay that works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what speaks to me too yeah, there's just some.
Speaker 2:There's just that sculpting to the light, there's that beautiful sense of it. Um, yeah, I love it. And then the the shot with the flags. We noticed, uh, there was a hill across from the village and we're like well, that looks directly onto it.
Speaker 2:That's probably a perfect layout of the whole village. Um, so we kind of uh, bushwhacked around a trail, found a spot where some prayer flags were stuck up on the side of the hill, and it turned out to make a really wonderful framing as well, to get that sense of a culture there as well, because the tricky part with landscapes is you can very easily end up into everything's on one dimension right um and you really want a sense of depth in landscapes. I just gives it a bit more of an immersive feel.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, absolutely yeah, those iconic trees, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean Madagascar Avenue of the Baobabs. This is one that had been on my list for a while when I had gone there. It was something like I watched Planet Earth and I remember them narrating about the Baobabs and flying a little paraglider through it and I'm thinking like, oh my God, I have to go here. And it's truly as incredible as it seems. It's a little bit more remote area in western Madagascar area in western Madagascar, um, but that light at the end of the day on the trees when it's coming in, and then people are going back to their, uh, back and forth from the village, from Morondava to some of the smaller communities. They're just so beautiful.
Speaker 2:Um, and these collection of boys, uh, just another group where you wander into a village, people, people are like what's up? What are you doing? How's it going? You know, and I love that curiosity they had, and this was just total, a total wing shot. I had it held low when I opened it wide up and pulled a wide lens and it got real close to them. So it felt like that, like a little huddled in and looking around you sort of viewpoint.
Speaker 2:Um, it's adorable, but again bring, bring a polaroid and able to give them polaroid photos afterwards. So it helps create that engagement and it's a nice way to give back to people too, because obviously I'm there um, travel assignments are certainly not the best paying assignments, or sometimes much at all um so but I'm still there on some financial gain usually, um, whereas a lot of the people you're working with may not so if you can be able to give back in some ways, uh, I think that fosters nice, uh, community and relationships absolutely um, and yeah, and if uh, this one is in Oaxaca, mexico.
Speaker 2:The right of the food in this is Casa Oaxaca El Restaurante. It's a very famous restaurant.
Speaker 1:Your mic is going, the volume is going down.
Speaker 2:Oh, can you hear me better now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this one's, casa casa oaxaca el restaurante, um famous kind of a restaurant there that's pioneered the modern oaxacan mexican gastronomic movement. I'd say, uh, someone else may debate me on that, so don't keep me 100 percent. But very well known they do these beautiful traditional Mexican foods, but also with the Oaxacan flair. This is with like crickets and grasshoppers and avocado and radish and all sorts of little florals.
Speaker 3:And can I ask a question then what? Is exotic dish or food or regional special.
Speaker 1:Yeah, since you've been all over the world, what's good? So if you had to choose, like one, that may not even be a fair question. Yeah, it's the same way as you trying to pick 10 pictures out of your Uber.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I don't know if I'd describe anything as like weird food.
Speaker 1:It's just more like culturally different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I've had a snake soup in Thailand that sort of lit my hair on fire. I remember that once.
Speaker 2:Some might say a tostada full of crickets and grasshoppers and mealworms is pretty out there, uh, delicious and beautiful, though. Um, I've eaten, uh, dried yak meat with the fermented yak cheese and in bhutan, um, oh god, there's always something like well, that's different, and sometimes it's things that surprise you, like Bhutan, too, has in this community, has a flower called Pongi Meadow that they only harvest for a couple of weeks in the fall and it just blooms. It's a low mountain flower and they harvest it and they make it into either a stew or a tea and it's just like really wonderful, bitter, florally sort of concoction. So it's things like that that sometimes surprise you, that I've never heard of, never would have thought of and can't find anywhere else.
Speaker 3:This photo to the left. I'm sorry because I interrupted you when you were describing the Oaxacan dish.
Speaker 2:So this is a traditional Palanque distillery of Mezcal in Santiago Mazatlán. These guys are Mezcal Macoricos. Really wonderful guys, amazing distillery. They put out some amazing Mezcal. I think you can get some of it in the States though it's definitely pricey because they're good. They're good at what they do and they're preparing a roast here. So they've cut the pineapples of the agave into pieces.
Speaker 2:It's usually lava stones that are laid down over some charcoal that's lit on fire, over some charcoals that's lit on fire, and then they're putting um, agave hemp over everything to sort of, uh, insulate the pineapple from the direct stone contact, and then they put that all together, they bury it and uh, that's uh how you get that smokiness of mescal. It is not from a worm or something like that, is from actually being fire roasted. That's cool.
Speaker 3:Now, did you do the research for this prior to arriving in Mexico, or was this something? Yes, okay, so.
Speaker 2:I always do a little bit of. There's a bit of both, right, so some of it was. I knew about the palenques and distilleries and I knew they were in Mazatlan and I wanted to go see those, but I didn't really know of ones to go to or that much. So I um this one got there a couple days before the writer and wanted to do a little scouting of my own. I'd always wanted to go to Oaxaca too. I think it's such a phenomenal destination, uh, you know, beautiful sense of culture and boutique hotels and amazing food and crafts. So I knew some places I wanted to visit. I hired a local guide for a day to bring me around to some of the distilleries, discovered those, and then came back in other days with the writer when I knew like, yeah, this one was really cool, it was beautiful, what they're doing is amazing. Let's go here. Sometimes that works. I go first, the writer does, sometimes the writer's first, and then I'm going.
Speaker 2:Those are nice ones when we're traveling together and we can sort of create those stories together, so there's always a bit of preceding figuring out where we're going and then like getting there and finding things and wandering down the street and while that's an amazing opportunity or something over here, so it's a combo, right yeah, that's great.
Speaker 3:So, which brings me to another question. So I'm sorry, but how do you? How do when you travel personally, when you're, how do? How do? I don't know if you travel differently, but A little bit.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's a. I don't always work. There's kind of like when I go on a photo mission, there's a part of my brain that switches on the way of doing things, of making connections with people, of again getting up at 4 am and getting out there for sunrise picking spots that are going to be visually more interesting. So it's not always a delightful way to vacation, travel. It's usually I'm exhausted, usually by the end of the trip, so, like when my wife and I travel on vacation, I don't bomb into photo mode the whole time.
Speaker 2:No, you'll certainly be out there looking for images here and there, but casually so, and uh, it comes with like a little heartbreak, like I have to, I have to step back. I have to be like, okay, you're not on photo mode, this is vacation you know, because, it's always like you go to a place. That's amazing. We did a trip to uh, japan, in this past fall. It's some of those photos behind me actually um and there.
Speaker 2:I know what to look for on getting some nice snaps as we're going along oh, that's a beautiful framing with the shrines or some trees this way. But I'm not going out and like seeking the cultural connections, trying to like get someone in a very cool robe, interesting portraits. When I'm on vacation I'm sort of like leave them alone. I'm not on work, right um, which when you come back, doesn't really give you a rounded photo story. So I always go to these tests and be like, wow, that was amazing. But oh, it could have been such a great photo visual if we put it together in this way. But because I'm on vacation, it's like all right, I have some nice photos from there, but it's not like a story that wows me, right, all right, I think there's a different approach to it when you're going out there for those visuals but yeah, you can still.
Speaker 1:Obviously we should do it, just not quite as concise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I have clients who still pick up and buy these images from me. Now they go into my stock catalog and they're licensed out that way. So I'll still make some money in some individual sales. And just to me, it's not the photo story, right, right, I wouldn't know, it's missing elements that, I would say, make it a good um editorial magazine story okay, but at least um so, actually so knowing what that is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is myanmar.
Speaker 2:Um, myanmar, I mean, uh, truly one of my favorite places too. Um, I certainly hope they are doing well. They're kind of they're in the midst of a civil war right now. Um, so quite difficult for them and and hopefully that uh settles out, uh, to the people's benefit, because there really are some such wonderful, incredible people there. Um, a beautiful country. I I'm definitely attracted to, to buddhist countries, for sure. There's there's just something there for me with the way people interact, the lifestyles.
Speaker 2:Um, one was like a bridge in the end of the day. Um, and temples and and right, this is a, an area called bagam. Um, it's around a river bend and it's an old kingdom of Pagan, and something like 4,000 temples and stupas are amidst the planes. I think there's a smaller collection that's been whittled down and been picked apart from uh than that high peak, but uh, and they, there's a company balloons over Pagan that uh used to balloon rides every sunrise on it. So it made it wonderful to get in a balloon and get some of those aerial shots over the temples and then to find a temple and watch them as they went by. Yeah, and the stupas there are just incredible, and some of them are quite massive. Others of them are small little pagodas, and you've got at this point. There were still goat herders moving through with their, with their herds, and things like that. So so there's a really wonderful place and I don't know it just feels magical.
Speaker 2:I I think what I've found over the years is I I like to find places, sort of where culture and environment intersect um, if that makes sense, uh, so, um, like I, I want to meet the people and amazing portraits and their food and the textiles and how they live, and I want that understanding to a photo. But I also want places that are spectacular from the landscapes, from the visual side of things as well, and kind of where those come together is what I really love beautiful, yeah, absolutely outstanding and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 1:So what are the bazillion assignments that you've had? If you had to pick one to say was your favorite, what would that be?
Speaker 2:Oh God, it is like picking your favorite child. You know it's Michael, Michael's, it no.
Speaker 1:I have no idea.
Speaker 2:I mean, I say that I have three favorite countries which I highlighted in the photos, probably Bhutan, madagascar, myanmar, and I think it comes back because those are places where the culture and the environment intersect so beautifully and each kind of in their own unique ways, a little bit more removed from globalism and its influences. I don't think you'd find a McDonald's chain in any one of those countries, or a Starbucks or anything. So there's a sense of um, a place that's different from the perspective you may experience every day.
Speaker 2:you know um which I think is something important to have in travel and to to go to those kinds of places where you you are see something totally different from your way of life, um, and how people get along there and and you can bring that home with you, that that sense of how life is there and what they do, and those connections you make sort of outside of our Western bubble, you know.
Speaker 1:The theoretical the, the, the. The sweet spot of travel is it's being able to see again most of the similarities and the differences they are yeah. They all wear clothes. They all do some form of what everybody else does. It's just how they uniquely go about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, I love my Italian vacation as well. I mean Italy is amazing, Come on, Amazing, come on. And you know, or Northern light hunting on a luxury ship in Norway, or a big luck safari camp in Botswana and things like that Like I love these things too, and are bouncing around amazing European cities and the culture, Same for South America and so many wonderful. So I do love those stories too. And, like you know, we're going to chateaus and michelin dinners for this whole week.
Speaker 2:It's like someone's got to do it no problem, okay, but yeah, the ones that really drive me wild are those, those interesting destinations outside of your perspective.
Speaker 3:Very cool and I know I saw you mentioned that you've been to all seven continents, which is pretty remarkable. If you could think of a spot I don't know, like, is there? What is your bucket list for where you want to go?
Speaker 1:Is there a place you haven't been that you're like okay, this is on my list, I need to get there.
Speaker 2:Or get back. This has definitely been a crazy year. I have not only made all seven continents in total, I made seven continents in the first seven months of this year. Uh yeah, so that's been a little bit insane. I don't think I would do that again. Um, I'm finally getting to sleep once more. I'm so uh yeah, uh, yeah, I mean, there's always so many wonderful places, uh to go and to see. Um, I've got a couple that are sort of like the trips that got away from me that.
Speaker 2:I've always wanted to get back to Rwanda would be one of them Out there guerrilla checking the new conservation works they're doing to repopulate some of the parks they have, after a lot of time, without you know, reintroducing species in those areas. Uh, that just seems like such an amazing um moment to connect with the landscape, the wildlife, the people. Um, where else? Uh, mongolia is a destination that's kind of loomed large for me that I've somehow not made. I've had several trips that almost went. I had one last year that I have set.
Speaker 2:Everything was booked and I was going and I got some debilitating flu-like sickness not COVID and it just had to cancel it. It just we pushed back flights for three, four days and then by the time that happened I missed what would be our connection flights to another region. So it just it all caved out. So that's one that I'll get back to you one day. But I try to go during the wintertime because I'm insane apparently. I mean, I see a lot of the summer steeps and you know, maybe the, the, the Eagle hunters in the fall and things like that, and I just want to go out into the, the normal areas and remote in the winter and see what life is like, then, and come up with something a little different, um, and try not to freeze to death.
Speaker 1:I mean, if they're doing it, it can be done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, a lot of extra batteries yeah, exactly, a lot of extra batteries, yeah, so then, um, what would be your next? Um, since already in the brief years we've known you, you've chosen a different path since we first met you. What do you see in the future like what path? Or?
Speaker 2:what? Um? Well, I mean I, my work is a real blend of, I'd say, travel, portraiture, interiors. In terms of what I shoot, the interiors are a large growing part of my business now, which has been quite wonderful. You get into these amazing homes and apartments all around New York City or sometimes I'm flown out to different countries to shoot them for either different magazines or for the architects and interior designers.
Speaker 2:I think it still falls under kind of a cohesive style for me because I think of homes like character portraits. So it's finding a way to essentially turn off all the lights and see how the light moves and sculpts the home throughout the day, and you can find these not only great room shots but beautiful little vignettes of details and I like to introduce homeowners into that. So it's not only the space but how we live in. The space is my approach to interiors. So that's been a big growing area.
Speaker 2:It certainly coincides with hospitality work, with restaurants, with hotel shoots and things like that, and same with the portraiture leads me to like interesting projects, like I have an artist portrait series that I shoot, that I really love doing. It's just a complete creative play time. I just find artists I like I say, hey, let's get together for two hours, no fees to it. You get some images afterwards and we just kind of riff and see what we can come up with, get them in action. I mean, the first rule of good photography is put interesting things in front of your camera.
Speaker 1:I would say that helps, yeah, so pretty good, pretty good tip.
Speaker 2:It gets you. It gets you. You know, if you want interesting photos you need interesting things happening. They're interesting people. So yeah, I love connecting with different artists that way and it comes back to editorials always Like someone from a magazine will see it and go like, wow, that's amazing, ok, can we hire you for this? So it's kind of great marketing connections. But yeah, hopefully it'll just be. The business will continue to expand and grow that way to work with more commercial travel clients.
Speaker 2:There's just a balance in figuring out how to do it all economically. The travel sphere is very competitive. It's very difficult to be in and the prices are not great in it because you get to go to these amazing places. And if you're shooting for magazines, it's just a factor of the diversification of the ad market. These days, not as many companies are buying just their ads in glossy magazines. So the magazines have less production budget to work with each issue, thus less what they can pay and hire out for on photos. So you have to figure out how to make it work in other avenues, whether it's licensing after to hotels or restaurants on a shoot or tourism boards, or how you utilize those connections to get that kind of work that can make you money in that part of the industry Again, for me, I found that nice balance of it, with more steady and localized interiors and being able to shoot those around New York market not run around everywhere, cause while travel is amazing and super fun every time, it can also be exhausting.
Speaker 1:So you figure it out, you find a balance right, yeah it's funny every people it's like so many things, whether people think that, like being an actor must be cool or being a travel photographer, being whatever that. Until you actually get that, there's definitely the cool aspect of all these things, but there's always the uh, the, the site, that, the behind the scenes stuff that you don't talk about.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's the world's tiniest violin because, yes, it's super cool, it's super fun. I love doing it when you're in that moment and things are working great and you're getting the right shots and meeting these amazing people. It's incredible. But yeah, you got to wake up at 4 am. All these times You've got to do out there. Sometimes you're on the road and you get pneumonia and you're stuck in a Kenyan hospital for two weeks.
Speaker 1:So every so often there's a downside you know, You're just always hunting.
Speaker 2:You've always got to be hunting for the next job, the next client, the next person to pay you, always hunting. You're always got to be hunting for the next job, the next client, the next person to pay you. And when you're building up your work and your clients, there's a lot in those early days of proving your worth and why you are worth charging things. It gets a little better as you get more and more into the industry, but there's always a nature of like why does this cost that and why you know? So there's a lot in the beginning. As you get further and further into a career that gets much better. But that's certainly all these little things from a business perspective that are kind of like stopping you from succeeding and getting to the next level and and you got to get around that and that's all part of it.
Speaker 3:A big part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just thinking with the uh, with the artist series the uh, a different one which and you probably already shot a bunch on uh on assignment but doing one with if you get some really awesome chef to say, hey, I will trade you this amazing food for me photographing it and uh and and that whole experience. I could see that one being difficult on the waistline but uh, really, really good on the uh but from an interest standpoint and to just go, wow, I got some amazing and you can do that like it's all over the world if you you travel certain places and yeah, there's um, there's a again a balance on that too.
Speaker 2:There are certainly people like I know I was just talking with um, a cruise client, right and there are people who will go and will jump on a cruise and exchange the cost of the cruise for giving them images of the environment as they went along, right, um, but there there's also like I'll go and do that and be able to charge per day on doing those kind of things as well.
Speaker 2:Now there's a point in your work where obviously maybe one quality of work is a little better than another for what it fits, but you got to be careful on sort of giving away the farm every single time just for those experiences. It's knowing the worth your images are providing and how that is giving value to the business. I mean, the grand dilution of that these days is all these Instagrammers who are traveling and we just want to stay at that nice hotel and I'll take some nice photos of your place. To stay at this nice hotel, ok, that gets you a cool place traveling too, but those hotels were paying for that before so they're not anymore it does a disservice to the uh the industry.
Speaker 1:I remember years ago this uh writer for his professional writer for guitar magazine and uh, he loved to travel. So he would do is he would submit what's the requests to various places. He wanted to go and say I'm going to write up a story, Can I basically get comps? So he never got a single travel story published but he got a lot of comps vacations.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 1:He's a damn good guitar writer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a big guitar magazine, but apparently not what's in the world not a great travel writer yeah, I mean, um, when I, when I travel for editorial work, it generally everything is comped um, that's because they're getting publicity in a magazine, usually like we're writing a story either about them or adjacent to them, if you, you know, if I'm doing a regional piece on Southern France, I may be staying at three hotels and going to a couple different restaurants and some farms and things like that, and there's chateaus obviously.
Speaker 2:So the hotels are going to have either a visual or some mention of that in the story, just depends what the focus of the story is. And by no means they understand too. It's not like a grand mention at all of them, and nor will it be a good mention if I stay there and it's terrible. Um, I'm not a reviewer, I'm not gonna write a bad review or put that, but like, if I stay at a hotel and I'm like would I honestly, honestly send people here, no, then they're not going to end the story, even though they might have conned me a $2,500 room a night, you know that's that's the natural, the nature of editorial travel.
Speaker 2:It has to be a genuine recommendation, a genuine place you'd send somewhere. There's no quid pro quo. Well, they conned me this quid pro quo I'm like. Well, they come to me this where I have to. Sometimes I feel like the that's the problem with on a lot of the instagrammers is they'll get the free stay and now there is a quid pro quo nature to it yeah, I guess my my push myself for traditional journalism and and magazines thank god singing from the rooftops again without integrity.
Speaker 1:It was gonna be again. There's nothing, I I think anyway.
Speaker 2:So I mean when I when I travel still and I want recommendations, I go back to publications and see spots that are recommended there I'll do my own research and source to uh some things to supplement. But, like I know, someone went there, someone actually tried it and and can recommend it. Recommend it versus just like well, I'm getting paid to be here or do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no due diligence for sure. Well, at least I do. I like to do it, she's great at this.
Speaker 1:My expectations are low Again. I enjoy all levels.
Speaker 3:Well, no, but I mean all sorts of things we could talk about, but over tourists, you know. I mean everything, the places that have so much over tourism that I yeah it's a tough one.
Speaker 2:On that, um for sure, I I definitely try to recommend going to different places, going slightly off the path. It uh good travel requires some work. It requires a bit of up front from the traveler um to look into somewhere that may not be as fully touristed, to find a different destination. You know everyone wants picture postcard perfect Santorini, Greece. But then when you're in line you know with 10,000 people on that cable car queue to go up the mountain and back, is it? Really the experience you wanted.
Speaker 3:And is it?
Speaker 2:really actually doing anything for the local economy?
Speaker 1:I don't think so no, no, again, they're especially. They're all standing in a queue in order to get the same shot and the same, the same what's called a postcard. And then they all hop back and you go and yeah. So, outside of having been to santorini, it was not quite the experience that we had hoped and, again, we enjoyed Santorini. But it's just so touristy in all the spots that you see, that's the only place people go.
Speaker 3:But even here it's like you're in Paris but everyone has a trip. They got off of Instagram. There's a big, long line, but changes are closed. A certain view and then 10 feet over, here is a whole other view, An amazing thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's the commodification of kind of the visual is what Instagram has done and people who make their livelihoods on Instagram, so they have to be pressured to get that one shot to repeat that same thing.
Speaker 3:Like the imagination has disappeared from travel. That's why it's refreshing to speak to somebody like you, to look at how fresh and beautiful your images are, because they're not cookie cutter following a trend. You know that.
Speaker 2:I don't even tell you the place that's just off the path that kind of becomes your most favorite, like Machu Picchu in Peru is amazing, wonderful, but when you're going through that Disney style queue to get into it it loses a little touch of that magic, whereas there's some sites around it maybe in Ollantaytambo or Larus and things like that that are like, wow, that's incredible. And I didn't really know much about it, I hadn't been oversaturated on the imagery, and you got there and it was a small amount of people and you're like, wow, this is incredible. You know, uh, if you had mashu pichu to yourself, yeah, it'd probably be amazing but, that's just not the reality of a destination like that anymore so good.
Speaker 2:Good travel requires some effort, some work on on your part to be that person. And everyone always makes this distinction of the tourist versus the traveler right, like, oh, these are tourists doing bad things and I'm a traveler so I'm looking at it, but I think that's a cop out to owning out on doing again putting in that work too. We're all tourists. If we're going somewhere and it's not somewhere you've been before and it's on vacation or outside, you're a tourist.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, don't shed that like oh, it's them doing bad things and not me. Cop to those things you may not be doing to help out. You know the local communities as much, or the things that put you in the same spot as everyone else and if you want to be a better traveler, put in that effort to do it exactly, put the effort in.
Speaker 1:That's exactly it yeah, that also I think to be uh a little open to change like say, okay, it's into uh serendipity to go all right yeah let's find out what's around that corner. Find it here.
Speaker 2:So if everybody's standing here. I'm curious now what's around?
Speaker 1:that corner Find it. So if everybody's standing here, I'm curious now, what's there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes you're going to run into something and be like, well, okay, that wasn't that great or not ideal. That's pretty trouble too.
Speaker 1:If you don't look around that corner. You never know, though, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're just like you. Can't like try to maximize every little element of it to be the most amazing thing, because it's not going to be, because everyone else is doing the same thing Exactly.
Speaker 1:Getting in to see the Mona have to see the Mona Lisa. I'll. You know, I'll go see the rest of the museum and on my way out, if there's, if there's space, I'll poke my head into the Mona Lisa.
Speaker 3:Well, I think people have these lists that they have to share with their friends, like it's like, well, they did it, I have to do it, and this, this bucket list of things they don't really care about, that they think that they go around speaking of paris you know the Mona Lisa is one of them. People endure the Louvre and they don't even like art.
Speaker 2:Just to spend half a day hunting down right oh, I saw the Mona Lisa in the Louvre, you know, and it.
Speaker 1:Just to say they've said yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just because they have their list, so anyway list.
Speaker 2:Travel is definitely kind of one of the problems of our, I guess, modern tourist era.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like how could you go to Paris and not see the Mona Lisa? Not that.
Speaker 2:I'm not guilty of it, here and there too, but we all are.
Speaker 1:But we've all seen it. You want to see again. There's a reason these things make postcards and magazines and stuff, because there's something spectacular about it, sure, sure. But to base your entire enjoyment on whether you made that exact same photograph that every other person did, versus, say, again, since we live here in Paris now, there's so much more to Paris than justis, than just so much iron an old iron tower and some other cool things which are, which are actually cool and worth seeing. But to base your entire thing like waiting on a line to get that one shot when you could be doing all the other things that make it, yeah, I mean when you get to these such diverse and complex cities like that.
Speaker 2:It's the same with.
Speaker 1:New York City Right and.
Speaker 2:I remember getting a commission on a Nat Geo traveler story for New York I think is last year or two and it was like great, what New York story are we telling? Because there's so many of them Right, and there's so many different focuses and ways we could do this. So what's the story we're going to tell on this?
Speaker 3:Exactly. So on on, we won't.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah, I guess it was, but where?
Speaker 3:where can people find you or where is the best place for people to see your work? Sure, Sure.
Speaker 2:I'm always on Instagram. Now, too, I keep everything pretty simple on. My branding is my name, so just Matt Dutile, so Instagram will be Matt Dutile. The website's mattdutilecom Pretty easy to find me on those and you can see more of my work on both of them and more of what I'm up to Either stories.
Speaker 3:I'm releasing or trips I'm back from, and then right and I've got the photo workshops coming up of what I'm up to.
Speaker 2:You know either stories I'm releasing or trips I'm back from yeah and then right and I've got the photo workshops coming up this year so you can find more on that. So there's like I'm around in the ethos on that, you know.
Speaker 3:I'm around Excellent. We so appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:It was so wonderful. I love it. Well, hopefully the people who are listening to this and not seeing it will go see it, because your photos were fantastic and I want everyone to see them.
Speaker 2:Thanks very much, it's a beast.
Speaker 3:to narrow it down to 10.
Speaker 2:That's a little, you didn't took an impossible, as you see, I put together Duopane, so I failed at that mission.
Speaker 1:Again, you did a great job, complimenting each other. It fits the criteria, while expanding on the yeah, I skirt that line just a little bit in a quarter of a while it fits but very cool well, thank you so much thank you guys, glad to chat and I hope to stay in touch too. If you get an assignment out here and our friends let us know yeah definitely.
Speaker 2:I got to get out there for the Olympics. I've been watching it every day on the TV.
Speaker 1:So, I'm like oh can.
Speaker 2:I go. Can I go for the last week?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the helicopters are going over all the time.
Speaker 3:Can you hear them?
Speaker 2:There's more helicopters than there are people in the streets. There you go.
Speaker 3:The venues is right here, so the helicopters are above the venue.
Speaker 2:It's not too bad, though, to say you've got the Olympic helicopters around you and Olympic break dance, you know like six blocks away there you go.
Speaker 1:All right, guys Take care, good luck, luck, thank you so much and thank you thank you so much. I'll hopefully see you soon, yeah, bye.