Texas Leadership Summit Podcast
Christianity's Influence on Government and the Call for Faith-Driven Leadership
Discover how Christian values and government can elevate our leadership and societal engagement approach. Tim joins me, Deanna Kenisell, to shed light on the government's pivotal role in ensuring the sanctity of life through a Christian lens. This episode takes you on a historical journey, revealing the profound impact of scripture on the founding of America and how these principles continue to influence our nation's governance.
We tackle modern churches' hesitancy to engage in political discourse, underlining the critical duty of church leaders to educate their congregations on civic responsibilities. We speak about the church's role in cultivating leaders for governmental positions while dispelling myths about the separation of church and state and the tax-exempt status of religious institutions. This segment calls for Christian leadership to embrace their role in shaping ethical and just government policies.
Tim challenges Christian leaders in both spiritual and political worlds to embody the likeness of Jesus, especially when grappling with political dilemmas. As we conclude, I remind listeners of the transformative capability of faith in governance and the necessity for Christians to infuse their spiritual conviction into their political engagement, courageously confronting the issues that plague our society.
Discover how Christian values and government can elevate our leadership and societal engagement approach. Tim joins me, Deanna Kenisell, to shed light on the government's pivotal role in ensuring the sanctity of life through a Christian lens. This episode takes you on a historical journey, revealing the profound impact of scripture on the founding of America and how these principles continue to influence our nation's governance.
We tackle modern churches' hesitancy to engage in political discourse, underlining the critical duty of church leaders to educate their congregations on civic responsibilities. We speak about the church's role in cultivating leaders for governmental positions while dispelling myths about the separation of church and state and the tax-exempt status of religious institutions. This segment calls for Christian leadership to embrace their role in shaping ethical and just government policies.
Tim challenges Christian leaders in both spiritual and political worlds to embody the likeness of Jesus, especially when grappling with political dilemmas. As we conclude, I remind listeners of the transformative capability of faith in governance and the necessity for Christians to infuse their spiritual conviction into their political engagement, courageously confronting the issues that plague our society.
Welcome. I'm Deanna Kennesell with Texas Leadership Summit. I'm the director here. We're glad that you're back For more. We're going to dive in a little bit today about our government pillar and kind of explain where we are with that. This is probably the one pillar that I get asked the most about when I talk to potential sponsors and donors and even other organizations that we want to partner with is tell me more about this government pillar. What do you mean?
Speaker 2:by that.
Speaker 1:You know. So I think it's a really important one, especially in this day and age. You know, everybody just kind of wants to know what do we mean by that. So let's just kind of dive in. You know what do we mean by that. So let's just kind of dive in. When we say government you know we talk about it protects life, so can you kind of dive into what you mean by government protecting life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, deanna. Thank you for having me again today. Government pillar protecting life. Well, we know that. For those who have been asking well, is this political? Is this church? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Well, we find this government being asked by God in scriptures, because if we're going to—any leadership, value principle, anything that we move forward with in leadership it needs to come from God's word. And we find this in Genesis. Right after the flood, noah gets off the boat right, he's got his family there and the Lord tells him to be fruitful and multiply. But right away, the Lord tells Noah in Genesis, chapter 9, verse 6, whoever sheds man's blood by man, his blood shall be shed for in the image of God he made man. And right there, right after the flood, you have this institution being formed by God's command to Noah. And so how do we walk that out? How do we formulate that? And that's what we begin to see as we go through scripture the role of government is to be a minister of God.
Speaker 2:Romans 13,. We've mentioned this one before, where Paul is addressing the church, these Jewish believers who are being persecuted by unbelieving Jews and this argument is the law or by faith. And, as he's walking this out what we realize in the story, god's story with the church is we see God is still passionate about Israel. The gospel was to go out to the Gentiles to make the Jews jealous. And we know according to scripture, at the end of the story, god's going to bring Israel back to faithfulness, and that's what Revelation is about story God's going to bring Israel back to faithfulness, and that's what Revelation is about the how that's going to happen. But my point is they are under Gentile authority, and so Paul is telling the Jewish believer you're to submit to authority. The reason why you're in this mess is because you rebelled against God. However, he says to them in Romans 13, you're to submit to the authority because God has placed them in that position as a minister of God.
Speaker 2:And when we see that term minister, it's a churchy word we think, well, that's for those who made that their life vocation. That's not the case. It's minister. Simply to deke is where we get our word deacon. And so it's servant. It is a servant of God for justice.
Speaker 2:And the scriptures go on to say that God uses government to protect in that text, in Romans 13, the sword to stand against evil, to punish those who do evil and to reward those who do. Right Now, the last time I checked, pastors are supposed to present the full counsel of God's word, and now we have churches and we have pastors all the time that say, tim, you need to keep your nose out of government. That's secular, and so keep it in the word and keep it in the church. Well, I'm, I tell you this. But uh, pastor, you're a shepherd and shepherds are to do what protect, provide, nurture, and so, um, that's when we talk about protecting life. This comes right out of the scriptures. God shows no partiality, and we'll get into that in a little bit.
Speaker 2:But primarily to distinguish between this protecting life, how's government to protect life? Well, there's going to be some people have a problem with that, you know to say that the church is to be speaking into this. Now, if you go here, if you go to Scripture, if you go to God's Word and you really believe this stuff, well, that has to move you to action. If it's your conviction, we have said right thinking with TLS, right thinking, right response. Well, if the church is to embrace our role in Christian leadership, what does that look like in the government? How can I be a part of protecting your life. We're not saying that we all put on a badge, put a gun in the holster to our side and go confront evil ourselves individually.
Speaker 2:It isn't within the structure, and that's what's so great about the Constitution. We have this amazing document that enables us to work lawfully, to move through the steps in a way that we can protect life, and so Christian leaders just need to step forward in that role if they're passionate about government.
Speaker 1:Have the courage to do so.
Speaker 2:Have the courage. Well, there again, you bring that up again. Have the courage to do so.
Speaker 1:Have the courage to do so.
Speaker 2:That's what we're all about that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:So we're not necessarily sitting here saying a Republican versus Democrat kind of thing.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 1:This is standing up, taking leadership, following the biblical truths in that Church should be able to lead their flock and let them know what is going on in the government.
Speaker 2:Right. And again I think most people Deanna they're not aware of the law.
Speaker 1:Correct For sure.
Speaker 2:So they do not know what the Constitution says about this way of life and how the government is in a position to protect those from evil. You know to bear the sword and Paul would go on to say you know, if you don't want to fear the government, do what is right Now. Unfortunately, now we find our government doing what is evil and calling it right.
Speaker 2:Okay, so where does that leave us? Well, as a pastor and as a Christian leader, we have men and women in the church that have the courage, and that's why we've said, if we can just get 10% of our people having the courage to step forward and verbalize and move towards what the Constitution has given us the founding of our country and begin engaging, the government pillar and there are opportunities when we find the government refraining from protecting against evil and not doing what they're supposed to do. Unfortunately, we're going to have to do a lot of work. I was just visiting with a friend of mine who has worked with several presidents. He's with his company. It requires him to be involved with the Secret Service and he said, tim, it's not one party or the other, unfortunately. He said, this is very extensive, it's very deep, and we have Democrats and Republicans that are ignoring the law and using it for their own selfish gain.
Speaker 2:So if we really you want to talk about needing courage and courage is not the absence of fear, it is the willingness to do what is right in spite of that fear. You know John Wayne the Duke. He said, hey, courage is being willing to get in the saddle and go the ride so that I hope. I hope. My hope first is in Christ and then after that. My hope is that the Word of God, if we can get people in front of the Word of God and show them what God's Word says about this, that's where the real struggle is the primary struggle. But once people see this, you can't unsee it, and so it's a battle.
Speaker 1:Well, and let's go back a little bit, because you said something that sticks out of it's about doing right. So so many people are like how do we know what's right these days? Right, because a lot of people are using their feelings to dictate what is right. They're using what lawmakers are trying to say is maybe right, but we know that what's right is what the Word says, so we go back to the Word every time if you have that question on what is right.
Speaker 2:Right. So, yeah, that's been the whole problem with mankind, humanity, going all the way back to Eve. You know the first temptation when Adam and Eve fell Satan, his desire and the temptation was to get them to look at the fruit. Did God really say that First, question God's word and then, secondly, see how they can become like God and third, you can have life without God, you don't need God. And so she looked at the fruit and we know that passage, and the result was she was doing what was right in her own eyes and not what God said. And so you said feelings. You know, how do we know what is right? Well, I believe Deuteronomy tells us. If we get Deuteronomy down, we'll know how the rest of the story is going to go. It's just we're going to see how it plays out, the what is found in Deuteronomy.
Speaker 2:But talking about doing what is right, in chapter 13, moses says if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you saying let us go after the gods whom you have not known and let us serve them, you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord, your God, is testing you to find out if you love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord, your God, and fear him, and you shall keep his commandments, listen to his voice, serve him and cling to him. And so Moses would then go on to say that God would require the life of that dreamer of dreamers. If someone steps forward and pronounces their prophet and says this is what's right, moses would say we are required to take them out of the camp and stone them to death. Because what was the key? They were to be a nation among the nations, representing God. And so the tendency and I think not only for Israel but for us is to fall away from the Lord, reject the Lord and hear what is right is defined by God. We're to fear Him, love Him and cling to Him. So if I want to know what's right, I go to God's Word, and so right thinking can enable right response.
Speaker 2:The problem is, we're defining right thinking on our own terms and not His Word. And not His Word. So for all those that are saying well, you're just being political. No, I'm sorry, I hate to disappoint you. We're not. We're being biblical as best we can and I know we come from different walks of life and faith and denominations and so that's why we at TLS our focus when it comes to how do you know what's right and what version and who gets to determine that. We have established here Teach Me the Bible. We're working with Teach Me the Bible, which is another podcast, but we're just simply walking through Genesis Revelation. It is non-denominational, it's just I'm giving kind of a commercial here for that but.
Speaker 2:I want people to know, first of all, how you can know the word. It's easy to understand. You just need to be able to read it. And we walk through verse by verse on that podcast. So you can't know right thinking if you don't know the word. So I'm not going to sit here and say right thinking, know the word, know the word. But not give you an opportunity, because we want to give our leaders tools, we want to equip them, so we want to empower Christian leadership with courage, tools and hope to ignite a revival of Christian leadership. So how do we do that? Know the word? Here's where you can go.
Speaker 1:Yes, knowing the word is the first step.
Speaker 2:That's the first step.
Speaker 1:And most important.
Speaker 2:That step, that's the first step, first and most important, you really don't need to know anything else after that.
Speaker 1:Well, and a lot of times, whenever I am talking to organizations and people and stuff and they're like what are y'all Y'all? You know, y'all right. Are you the left? You know we're Christian, we're believers, that's right, that's, it doesn't matter red or blue, right? So yeah, it's go to his word for right. So, yeah, go to His Word for the truth and to know your roadmap, I mean. So we kind of touched on this Should the church keep their nose out of it? Separation of church and state. But can you dive into the actual law and the rule about?
Speaker 2:it a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Because people, I get that one a lot too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, should the church keep their nose out of it? That's interesting. What's amazing is that most people don't know that at the founding of our nation, even before then, let's go back even further, say 50 years before the founding of this country. At that point in history where all the colonies they've settled here, what was formerly known as the 13 colonies, and what they used as their textbook was the Bible. At that period in time, what is now known as the United States, the eastern coast, in the southern states, 97% of society knew the word, they knew the Bible. It was a textbook for students, it was a textbook in the home and the mom and, as the kids would learn how to read, that's the textbook. They were in print, they had access to the Bible and so they were able to use that as that document. Now, the Primer was also another book that came from England and it focused on the ABCs, the catechisms and the other things. But all of this in teaching kids came from the Bible, their lessons. You go through the alphabet A to Z and it would have some tie to the Bible. So at the founding of our country, we've walked through the Jonathan Edwards, the first great awakening, and there's this movement where people are following Christ. Now, their understanding at that point in history, church history, is different from where we are today. So we also have a different paradigm. We had one. Their values, their principles, their way of life was rooted in the word. Today, people say they can have principles, values, do what it's right in their own eyes, divorced, if you will, from scripture. That wasn't the case then, and so, when the founding fathers established the constitution, one of the reasons why the church is not taxed is because the church was viewed as a sovereign entity. So you had two sovereigns. You had the nation. That was sovereign, okay, and they were able, the leadership was able to tax for the purposes of protecting the nation. But what the founding fathers said was that one sovereign has no right to tax or govern another sovereign, and so the church was viewed as sovereign. So you know, one of the issues today is well, we don't want to do anything to jeopardize our 501c3 status. Well, I hate to bust this bubble, but you're already exempt.
Speaker 2:The 501c3 status didn't come along until the 60s, and so LBJ. And so LBJ, he did that. What a lot of people don't know is that he got that tagged onto another bill so that he could control the nonprofits. He had some people that were trying to oust him, if you will. He wanted to maintain his political power and so that's how that was formed and brought into existence.
Speaker 2:So I challenge churches you know, engage in influencing the government. Be involved. If they take your 501c3 status away, it doesn't hurt you as a church. Now, can the IRS then look at those donations and say, well, you're not going to get credit for that donation if you don't have it. Well, that's Caesar's Okay, then we come back and that's a whole nother conversation for another time of you know, am I just giving for my benefit, for my tax write-off?
Speaker 2:And unfortunately there are a lot of people that do. But we're supposed to give from a generous heart to advance the kingdom when we talk about our business pillar, that's stewardship. We'll get into that during that time. But keeping your nose out of government? I don't think so, because biblically, as a shepherd, we're to educate and inform and preach and teach the full counsel of God's Word. We have an opportunity to create leadership through the church. We did our podcast with Congressman Michael Cloud. It's one of the things we talked about in that podcast. Was you know if we were able to remove all of the failed leaders, the bad leadership based on right thinking coming from God's Word, the church has not done a great job of creating new leadership. We would not have enough people to fill those leadership roles, so we are behind.
Speaker 1:We have plenty of work to do in raising up leaders within the church to take that influence into the government pillar leaders within the church to take that influence into the government pillar and something about the 501c3 status that I learned when I took the Salt and Light Council class and we would need to have. You know they work very close with the legal council. Maybe have them on at some point to explain this a little bit further. But they pointed out something that I didn't know from working in nonprofits. So nonprofits do have their 501c3 nonprofit status, tact-exempt, and when you go apply like when Texas Leadership Summit started, we went and applied you wait like 18 months sometimes to get that status, but churches they don't have. That is what they explained to us Right, and that if it's taken away, you get it again tomorrow, like it can be taken away, but then tomorrow's a new day and you have it again and there's not even really a formal letter that churches really get or that can be taken away.
Speaker 1:Whereas nonprofits we definitely have to abide by our bylaws and the things that we need to, but churches, they claim it can't even really be taken away.
Speaker 2:Right, and so it gets back to what most people don't know about the Constitution and the church being recognized as a sovereign entity. Okay, so separation between church and state, the way it's defined today, is not true. They simply Jefferson was simply saying the state will not establish a state church.
Speaker 1:It works one way, but not the other way around.
Speaker 2:He wasn't saying that the church can't exist within government or within society and culture. He was saying we're not going to take your tax dollars and create a church sponsored by the state. That's all that meant Right, and we have taken that so far.
Speaker 2:Out of context, the state, that's all that meant and we have taken that so far in the church. Now, here's where pastors need to be informed, because they are believing this lie and they are cowering in fear because they're afraid of not being able to preach and teach in the church, in the community, and that is the furthest thing from the truth.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's what they taught us too. It's really eye-opening. A lot of people had no idea.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I would love to touch on at this point is that where Jesus says render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. So with that statement, a lot of pastors have used that to say we're not to be involved. So let's just stop for a moment there, because one of the things that happened in the Reformation and our Lutheran brothers and sisters, luther, realized, recognized and addressed this issue of secular versus sacred. Because what was happening, they were saying, there's this holy calling and those who are called by God to be pastors, they are sacred. Things in the church are sacred. Everything outside the church is secular, and what Luther addressed was that all of life is sacred.
Speaker 2:Now, if you take this approach, I mean this can be radical. So as we get into our business pillar, we're going to see this play out even greater. All of life is sacred. You have been purchased by the blood of the Lamb. You own nothing. You are I could really shake up some people with this.
Speaker 2:We are all slaves. You will always be a slave. The question is a slave to what or to whom? Slave to sin and the father of all lies, which will lead to death and destruction, eternal damnation. And when that time comes, there's no turning back. Okay, there's no. Well, I changed my mind. Okay, no.
Speaker 2:But what Christ offers through the gospel is that he substituted himself, died the death that we deserve, death on the cross, being obedient, even to the point of death, to the Father. And then, with his resurrection, validated God, the Father validated. Yes, this is my son, who did not deserve that death, who went to the cross willingly to atone for the sins of the world. Now I am free from the law of sin and death and now I'm a slave to righteousness. Christ gives me his righteousness, imputes it, credits it to my account Now, when I die, which is the way all mankind will go, because his physical body is not suitable for eternity, it's under the curse right. So we're living in a cursed world. It's all going one direction and so I get a little facetious with this from the platform. And we are resurrected with the shout of Christ and the trumpet sound. It's not like you're going to be in the grave going. Yeah, you know, I don't think I want to do that today, lord.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of good where I'm at. I'm comfortable right here. My spirit's with you in heaven.
Speaker 2:I don't have to deal. No At the trumpet sound. The scripture is very clear. Paul says that in a twinkling of an eye, go to 1 Corinthians 15, that in a twinkling of an eye go to 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, read the whole chapter. 1. Thessalonians, chapter 4, as he expresses this to the Thessalonians in the moment in a twinkling, it's like less than half a second. We are going to be changed. We're going to receive that glorified body, so slave to sin and death, slave to righteousness. It's all moving one direction. For the believer You're sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:In Romans, chapter 8, it is being conformed. Everybody talks about this. Predestined, predestined regarding salvation. The predestination is in the elect, or God's chosen people and those who are in faith are grafted. In Romans 9 through 11, the spiritual Israel. We're grafted into God's people spiritually. We are of spiritual Abraham by faith. And so what do we see happening there? We are predestined to be conformed. Read the rest of that verse Conformed to his image.
Speaker 2:We were created to be image bearers. I'm sorry I'm getting a little preachy here, but we were created, he says, in the image of God. All right, so hey, let's make man in our image. The issue is sin marred the image. No one has been after, no one's been able to be a complete, perfect image bearer, except one, and his name is Jesus.
Speaker 2:And so, through faith, we receive this righteousness of Christ, but we're still dealing with our sinful nature. What do we do with that? Well, we die, shed this body. Paul would say it's like a seed planted in the soil the seed must die in order to produce life. So, at the resurrection, we finally receive that glorified body. With the resurrection, we finally receive that glorified body united with our soul, our spirit, and we are, in that moment, able to fully represent the image of God. Where are we going? Well, adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden for their protection. Now we're headed back to the garden, the beginning and end of the story. We know that the middle connects those two, and we see what's happening going on in our world and we're trying to get back to that garden.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And the Lord, through faith, is enabling that. So, in the meantime, all of my life is sacred. It is all to be about the gospel and advance his kingdom. That's all I care about. That's all I'm to be about. Gospel and advance his kingdom. That's all I care about. That's all I'm to be about. I'm not to be about Tim Webb. I'm not to be about TLS.
Speaker 2:It's a tool and we want to use this tool to encourage our everyday leaders. But the mission ultimately is to advance the kingdom and to serve our king and represent him as best we can. And so we take that influence into the government pillar. We educate our leadership within the church and those who are passionate about government. We say, okay, you want to be equipped for that, to serve. What do we know about God? Well, he shows no partiality. He doesn't take a bribe, he doesn't lift up. We say no partiality. He doesn't lift up his eyes, doesn't lift up his nose, in other words, he doesn't elevate and recognize the rich or the poor. He shows no partiality, okay. And so he doesn't take a bribe. So, christian leader who's wanting to run for office, how about? Starting with the simple Show no partiality, respect the law and don't take a bribe. How about starting with?
Speaker 1:that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't take a bribe and use your influence to create great laws to protect people, all people. Don't show partiality and punish evildoers. Stand against evil. Now, what some have said is yeah, but if I make that strong stand, guess what? I'm not going to get reelected. So what's your point? What's your point? Are you standing for the king? Are you advancing the kingdom? Are you using your influence for your term? I really love the founding fathers from this standpoint when they address this. They didn't make a living being elected officials.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:They had jobs, they had careers. They went and served and did their part and then they went home. It wasn't created for a lifelong career. So when you've got politicians who's been in our current president 50 years he's never worked a day in his life outside of government, yet he's a multimillionaire how do you do that? How do you do that? We know what they get paid Some of the wealthiest people.
Speaker 2:President Obama comes into office. He was a community organizer, activist. No wealth gets elected, one term elected president and now he's a multimillionaire. Are you kidding me? And people are okay with that. We send billions of dollars to other countries. Our debt is in the trillions 30 plus and we're sending billions of dollars to other countries and we're in debt and our congressmen and women are becoming wealthy.
Speaker 2:It seems to me we are paying too much in taxes and we're turning our nose up to certain groups and individuals and down to others. Now, pastors, shepherds, church, are we okay with that? Are we okay with the bribe? Are we okay with showing partiality? That's not God's character. You know we want a sermon. I can give you a sermon real quick. See's not God's character. You know we want a sermon. I can give you a sermon real quick.
Speaker 2:You see, this is the problem, pastor Tim. Keep your nose out of government. Well, here's what happens when I keep my nose out of government, which is rooted in God's word. People are getting hurt. Kids are being trafficked. We know what's going on at Texas border and I cannot get pastors to talk about it. I can't get them on the same page. Just to address the fact that kids are being trafficked multiple times across the border. They're being tattooed After the third trip. They're being discarded like trash. They're being used for sexual exploitation. Are you kidding me? They're being used for sexual exploitation. Are you kidding me? Oh, keep your nose out of government. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. But here's where we need courage, because if the church makes a stand, there are those in our communities who are involved behind the scenes, involved and engaged in this evil. It's going to take courage to confront this. Four years ago, university of Texas did a study. Over 79,000 kids were trafficked in the state of Houston.
Speaker 1:I mean the state of Texas alone.
Speaker 2:Houston is a gateway. That's four years ago Now. We have an open border. What do you think those numbers look like now? And it is rampant.
Speaker 2:Just outside of our little community of Brenham a five-year-old was rescued out of a car, was being trafficked. I used to be involved with a nonprofit that worked with minors who'd been recovered from sex trafficking and we were getting calls all the time looking for beds for kids who had been recovered. So you know it's a real issue. And so when I have pastors and brothers and sisters in the faith say you know, pastor Tim, keep your nose out of it, just stay in the Word, stay with the gospel. A local pastor said you know, I think you all are just too intense for me and I believe the gospel is what transforms whole communities. And I said amen.
Speaker 2:But let me tell you something. God has asked us as shepherds to protect the flock. The wolves are in the house, the foxes are in the hen house and I have people that are just looking the other way. So you can tell I'm very passionate about this and I know you are too. So I just want people to understand we are not compelling people to make government Christian. We're not talking about making it a Christian government. We're talking about using our influence as followers of Jesus Christ to do what is right, bring right thinking so that we can have a right response. That's all we're talking about. It takes courage.
Speaker 1:It takes lots of courage, all right. Well, thank you for today and for the insight. I hope it clears up a lot of questions that people have. I know it helps us to go back and revisit it from time to time and make sure we're on the right path and sticking to our goals and what we're trying to do and accomplish. So thank you for that and we look forward to seeing you all again next month at another podcast. Thank you, tim, for joining us and we'll see you again soon.