This episode promises a profound shift in perspective, granting listeners an opportunity to uncover the spiritual essence that lies at the core of our being. Through tales of ancient wisdom and discussions on the Bhagavad Gita, Swami Tadananda illuminates the path to recognizing our eternal nature, a discovery that can redefine our interactions and elevate our experiences in this world.
Discover the compelling spiritual journey of Manmathanath Gangoli, profoundly influenced by the wisdom of Swami Vivekananda. Gangoli's story serves as a touching reflection on the transient nature of worldly affairs contrasted with the enduring essence of our spiritual awareness. As we peer into the future, the prospect of delving deeper into the intersection of spiritual principles and contemporary mental health dilemmas calls out to us. Brace yourself for inspiration as we delve into the signs of spiritual progress, the practice of detachment, and the strength found in maintaining inner balance amidst life's upheavals.
www.vedanta.nz
This episode promises a profound shift in perspective, granting listeners an opportunity to uncover the spiritual essence that lies at the core of our being. Through tales of ancient wisdom and discussions on the Bhagavad Gita, Swami Tadananda illuminates the path to recognizing our eternal nature, a discovery that can redefine our interactions and elevate our experiences in this world.
Discover the compelling spiritual journey of Manmathanath Gangoli, profoundly influenced by the wisdom of Swami Vivekananda. Gangoli's story serves as a touching reflection on the transient nature of worldly affairs contrasted with the enduring essence of our spiritual awareness. As we peer into the future, the prospect of delving deeper into the intersection of spiritual principles and contemporary mental health dilemmas calls out to us. Brace yourself for inspiration as we delve into the signs of spiritual progress, the practice of detachment, and the strength found in maintaining inner balance amidst life's upheavals.
www.vedanta.nz
Namaste to the listeners. My name is Sunil. I'm with Swami Tadananda from the Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre of Auckland, new Zealand. Great day Swamiji.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's nice and sunny and warm for a change in this winter. I've just come back from Fiji. It was so pleasant there, but anyway.
Speaker 1:Fiji would be a lot warmer. It's quite cold in Auckland at the moment.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is.
Speaker 1:All right, swamiji. We've been talking about perspectives over the last three episodes. We've talked about how different perspectives are formed in different individuals over time, either through upbringing or the environment they've been in. We've talked about how it colours their lenses different individuals over time, either through upbringing or the environment they've been in. We've talked about how it colors their lenses. We've talked about how, therefore, people have different points of view and how an understanding of what we've talked about understanding of perspectives helps people to understand their points of view, and therefore, the understanding can be used for conflict resolution as well. And we've talked about how it can be used in our day-to-day lives. Have empathy, whether it's at home or whether it's at work. Is there another dimension to this, swamiji, or are we now done with perspectives?
Speaker 2:There's a more, much more interesting dimension to the whole thing and to put that into perspective, we need to talk about how the Vedanta philosophy looks upon reality. Okay, who we are. So right in the beginning, in the first episode, we talked about a human being having multiple dimensions of his personality the physical, the mental or intellectual, the emotional dimension, moral and ethical, and the spiritual dimension. These all together compose or consist, make what an individual is. Most of us have a very strong sense of identity, or our perspective of ourselves. That's what we'll call our identity. How I perceive myself is my self-identity, isn't it so if we say I'm a physical body, you associate yourself with your age and gender and color and all those things, or your perspective, our perspective ourselves, as how we think or how we are trained, what is our profession, you know what is our ideology, whether it's political or spiritual or religious. So that is our perspective of ourselves and that's how we see the world. But there's an interesting group of people whom we might call researchers into the self of who we are within, internal, the inner space of man, whom we call the sadhakas, the spiritual practitioners, the spiritual seekers, so to say, and they have come in the scriptures to say that there is a very sublime perspective of ourselves, a spiritual perspective of ourselves, and they say that all other perspectives that we talked about are very much inferior in comparison to the ultimate reality that we are. Actually, the scriptures say we are the supreme being behind the universe, at the highest level. You might have come across with expressions like we are spiritual beings having a human experience. We are. That means somebody had an experience of self-identity. I am this. And they say we are a spiritual being. Now what does that mean? And all the scriptures then go around talking in more detail about what does that mean to be when they say we are spiritual beings.
Speaker 2:In the Upanishads in the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna actually tries to get that across to Arjuna Arjuna's. We can put ourselves in Arjuna's position. He's an everyday man, great warrior, has a sense of duty, responsibility and everything. But that type of understanding or that type of perspective fails him in a very crucial moment and he does not know what to do. And at that critical juncture Sri Krishna comes as a solution, brings to him a spiritual perspective. So what he says just don't look upon yourself as a physical human being, all these people that you are going to fight as physical human beings, their bodies, and they'll kill them and they'll be dead. He says we all are spiritual beings. We are souls, eternal, immortal, of the nature of infinite existence. Knowledge, bliss, purity, beauty, goodness, freedom that is our true nature.
Speaker 2:So what he is trying to do in the chapter 2 of Gita is to enlighten Arjuna about how he should see himself and all others. Now, alright, and he dwells on that in great detail. What does he say? He says look, we all have been born many times. I have been born many times, you have been born many times, but I know all about my previous births. You do not know, you do not know.
Speaker 2:So he's trying to say you are ignorant of that spiritual perspective of yourself. And as a spiritual teacher, he's trying to share that knowledge and give him the tools by which he can have that experience of himself as a spiritual being, and then he would be ready to face. The whole world will become transformed because we see the world through the lens of our minds, our understanding. So all the scriptures, the Upanishads basically, are trying to take us to that high level when they say Aham, brahmasmi, I am the Supreme being. Tattvamasi, you also are the Supreme being, I am Atma Brahman. The real Atman within me is that universal consciousness All of them are trying to lift our thinking.
Speaker 2:Not thinking. Thinking means you just. It's not just about changing the ideas and thoughts, they're actually trying to ask us to lift the mind to another level. So minds are, like we discussed about, like an old radio system where change of different frequencies and different stations will come. When the mind is tuned to a very low frequency, then we feel we are the body. Yes, at the next station we feel your thoughts, ideas, emotions, feelings. Most of us shuttle up and down in these two body-mind region dimensions. But the spiritual teachers say there are higher frequencies, higher stations, so to access, and each one of them will give us a different experience. And the ultimate is when we feel, not understand, when we experience ourselves as a spiritual being, universal, nameless, formless, without any boundaries, without any limitations. And that is so liberating because you have to understand the lower the mind is, the more greater the limitation is.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's the body, so you limit by your body it's like solid ice, but it becomes water in the mind. You're free to think. You can travel mentally anywhere, yes, but that water actually comes out of the invisible water vapor. Yes, the water vapor is. The water molecule in the water vapor is free to float everywhere in greater degree of freedom, and so as you go higher and higher, the degree of freedom increases and limitations falls off. Okay, so that's very, very interesting. We all have those dimensions, but not all of us have access to the dimensions. So what?
Speaker 1:is how does this link back to perspectives?
Speaker 2:So life comes with various types of problems. We try to resolve them. We get some solutions. Sometimes we are able to manage and we're happy with that. There are certain things we cannot solve because the answers don't exist on those lower dimensions. We talked about forming four triangles out of six matchsticks. Yes, right. And we said that look, you know, so long you keep it on a two-dimensional flat surface, you will get only two triangles. Yes, it's not that you won't get four, you won't get zero triangles, you'll get two. That means you'll get a partial solution. Yes, but when you need a greater, better solution, then you need to go from two dimensions to Three dimensions, three dimensions, and that's when the triangular pyramid appears. So in our everyday life we get some partial solutions and we are happy to operate. Something makes sense, the rest of the thing is beyond, but we carry on with life. But then sometimes big problems come in life and we need to access that high level.
Speaker 2:For example, somebody is getting old or has got cancer, is going to die, and the question comes so this is death. How do I understand this? What happens? Where does that person go? Well, if you look at it at from very body point of view. Then you cremate him and it becomes ashes. But we all know that we are not just bodies, their feelings, emotions and all those person who, whom we are talking and interacting with. What happens to that guy? Okay, we are not able to account that for that. So most people don't have that understanding and somehow it just pushed away and we sort of carry on with life. But there are others who ask that question because that's to do with themselves. We, sooner or later, we'll have to be confronting that situation ourselves personally. So Kathopanishad actually starts with that question. Achiketa goes to Yamaraja and asks this question what happens to a person when he dies? This is an ancient, ancient, ancient question. So the scriptures try to answer these great questions of life. Okay, and so that answer is not available on the two dimensional severs, in this physical body, mind, understanding the education, and so that insight is not available on the two-dimensional surface, in this physical body, mind, understanding the education that we receive through education system or given to us by our parents, so to say. The scriptures come to shed that new light but they say look, we can intellectually make you understand some things. Okay, so you read this, gita, read the commentary. Nothing. But they don't say this is the actual solution. They say the solution is to be experienced. You have to actually even realize it. You have to lift your mind to that high level and experience it for yourself. So I'll give an example to illustrate that point.
Speaker 2:In the life of Swami Vivekananda, one of his disciples one day came to him. He was a young man, university student, and he was reading Swamiji's lectures on Jnana Yoga. There are a couple of lectures on the subject of Maya. Maya is one of the fundamental principles of Vedanta, difficult to understand intellectually At best.
Speaker 2:Swami Vivekananda says it is what we experience depending on at what level our mind is. If the mind comes down to a gross physical world, body level, we perceive things through our five senses. Then this world of everyday experience in the waking state is what we see. But when the same person goes into sleep, what has happened? His mind's changed to a new frequency. Now the five senses are not operational and he's a dreamer and he's a dream experience and all that is real for that dreamer so long he is dreaming. So there's a dream perspective, all right. And then he goes into some deep sleep where even the dream experience is transcended. So the scriptures say, these three are jagrat, swapna, sushupti. Waking dream and deep sleep are the three states we shuttle through. But there are higher states even that, and how to access that. So meditation and real spiritual disciplines are about these things. It's not about trying to have a spiritual perspective of life and manage life. That is part of the thing. But the real thing is to go beyond our identity as a human being, physical being, mental being, transcend that in excess, that sublime the highest dimension, which is a where we are pure consciousness. So the spectrum of different levels of consciousness, so to say, is what maya is, so to say.
Speaker 2:And this young man had read that, those lectures, but it's not something that you can understand intellectually. So he had applied his thinking, reasoning, and he came to Swami Vivekananda. He said that he was his guru. He said I have read your lectures again and again. It's an intellectual thing, but I still can't grasp it. Can you please explain that to me?
Speaker 2:And they were seated on a bench at Bellarmut, in the bank of the river Ganga. And so this experience by this particular disciple. His name is Manmathanath Gangoli. There's a book called reminiscences of Swami Vivekananda. In that book he gives this particular reminiscences. It's good to go through that, but I'll just narrate to you.
Speaker 2:So, swamiji, swamiji Vivekananda started talking about Maya and then this man narrates out of his experience. He says well, swamiji started telling, describing or telling me about this Maya and I could follow his reasoning. But I suddenly became aware of an experience where I could see the whole world around me vibrating, just like you. It's a big fire and you look over the fire and things on the other side seem to be trembling, vibrating. So, he said, everything around him began to appear like that and he became aware of this new experience he is having. But he could still he and follow Swami's, vivekananda's, whatever he was trying to explain through words. And then he says the vibration that he was seeing trees, rivers, everything is shaking like that. And then suddenly, in a step, everything disappeared for him, eyes are open, he could feel that vibration within his own mind, brain, high frequency, and even that got transcended and suddenly all names and forms disappeared and he experienced a vast ocean of consciousness in every direction, like light and light and light in all directions, in which Swami Vivekananda was also another wave in that ocean and there was not really much difference between himself as a wave and that Swami as a wave. And so he said that was an actual experience.
Speaker 2:What Swami Vivekananda had done was forget about the intellectual understanding. He had lifted his mind to that next level and suddenly this whole world disappeared. In its place there was a limitless, uniform, homogeneous ocean of consciousness, and consciousness in all directions. And he said, wow, so this is it, this world that was very real to me just a minute ago. It has disappeared and in its place I experienced this wonderful consciousness and I'm on that consciousness. So in the next moment that he saw, felt his mind coming down, felt that vibration in the brain.
Speaker 2:At that level he was sort of entering into his shell of his individuality and personality, so to say, and he said, oh, so this is maya. And then he said to swamiji so everything that is maya, all this work of the ramakrishna mission you're prescribing, teaching us about serving human beings as God, that all is Maya. Then I mean that means in reality they don't exist? Yes, and when his mind came down to his former self, then he said, wow, what did I say? I criticized him. You know, there's a huge difference between me In that highest level. The differences had disappeared and Swamiji understood that. He's now back to his old human level and he smiled and he said yes, what you say is true, that's all, maya, but I'm playing with Maya and you're not.
Speaker 2:So he has a very powerful experience of how one's identity, by the grace, by the power of a spiritual person, can be lifted to transcend all the humanness. Now you understand when we say we all are spiritual beings, having a human experience. This human experience is this body, this mind, this ego, all the perspectives that we've been talking about. Coloring. That is there, but fundamentally, each and every one of us are together in oneness, in that spiritual consciousness. That being is called Brahman, father, heaven, god, whatever is there. We all are that. We are pure and perfect, each and every one of us at that level. But when that identity is lost, forgotten, and we descend into a very gross, mundane human being and that becomes our identity, then this world assumes its reality. It acts on us. We react with it because that is a reality. For to say, yeah, it's the Maya that we live in, in the Maya we live in Now. So what's the utility of this teaching? You might say, bringing back the perspective, yeah, yeah, bringing to perspective.
Speaker 2:So, now and then, we should remind ourselves what we truly are. When the world hits you hard and you can't resolve it because you're looking at, you're getting two triangles only yes, all right, then you need to transition to that spiritual dimension where, in that perspective, everything begins to make sense.
Speaker 1:So you basically saying that at those times you just go, don't stress about it too much, don't think about it too much, you have to let go as well, otherwise you'll be entangled in the, in the very gross world.
Speaker 2:Um is that is that what you're trying to say. How do you? Letting go here means what it doesn't mean saying I said the world doesn't exist, I'm not going to bother about it.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's like, don't over stress about things, that things. You do your best with everything that you're trying to do, but you can't yeah but it's not.
Speaker 2:When you say I don't over stress doesn't mean stress is not going to enter into your. Stress is coming into you. It's not that you are stressing yourself deliberately.
Speaker 1:Forces are trying to throw off your balance.
Speaker 2:Some people think that we can shut it off. Okay, so that's when they take alcohol and drugs for the time being, okay, the world automatically has been cut off, but just waiting to jump on the shoulders when you sober up again, type of thing. Yeah, so that's not a solution. No, and you can't say, hey, don't worry, be happy also, type of thing. Yeah, so that's not a solution. No, and you can't say, hey, don't worry, be happy also, type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know to ignore the problem. You can't just ignore the problem.
Speaker 2:You can't because it's not that you're trying to worry. You have a choice to be happy type of thing. Worries come to you, no one wants to worry, but you can't shake it off because. So the solution here is when you say don't stress yourself out. That is the end result. How not't stress yourself out? That is the end result. How not to stress yourself out? That has to be taught. Yeah, the tools Okay, so we tell everyone be strong, be resilient, be tough.
Speaker 2:But how do we make ourselves resilient? That has to be taught. Yes, and so, from what we've been talking about the last three episodes and now what we discussed, the solution is to develop that capacity to lift your mind from this lower dimensions, where problems are, to a higher dimension, and then you find that that which were appearing as problems are not really problems. In ignorance, you are seeing them as problems. There are different experiences. They have a purpose and utility in your life and all those type of things. But now you understand why you have to go through them. Some of them will automatically fall off because they cling to you. So long you are stuck to that lower level. Yeah, as long as you attach yourself to those things, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like this If you take a piece of ice from a glacier and say, look into it, it's brown, it's muddy and there's some pebbles and things in there Maybe some chemicals are there also and say, can I use this to drink? I need water, pure water. But then you say I can do something with this, I'll melt this. The moment you melt it, all the pebbles and everything will settle down. That means some undesirable things that were there. They themselves went away. But then there might be some chemicals, oil and things there. You evaporate it, distill, distill it and you get to clean, clean water. But every time you took it to a high level, from ice to water, water to water vapor, all the external things dropped off. So the solution here is that that we have to lift your mind to the next level and automatically you'll find many things will fall off. You don't have to drive them out. And that is when we say there's a spiritual solution to every problem. It's not you trying to push the problem out. You change your mind to another level where the problems cannot catch you. It's like like the radio Okay. So if you have changed your mind, your radio station is at lower frequency and suppose you're getting a lot of noise, okay, crackling and this, and that when you change your frequency to a higher, better quality station, high frequency, well, the other station automatically drops off.
Speaker 2:Because you see, you have to understand, the mind is like a transmitter and receiver of ideas.
Speaker 2:It's a form of bundle of energy we have talked about it and we receive according to the station we are tuned to. So if your mind comes down, then all the negative ideas, low ideas that are dwelling in that law of frequency, they suddenly catch on to you and enter into you and then they drag the mind down further and then worse ones will come in and that's how the ball cascades from the top of these steps down, down, down. But if you can, through some effort, raise the mind up, then what happens? The lower ones disconnect and the better ones feed into you and the better ones then lift the mind to the next level. And so, if we understand the how, how the minds, different frequencies are there, through meditation we make a conscious effort to lift that mind up, right, yeah, that doesn't mean that these problems, the negative ideas and thoughts that are there, get destroyed, or something like that, but they're there, but they can't catch you because you have shifted your frequency to another level.
Speaker 2:So when we say there's a spiritual solution ultimately, then the question is what is that station I can reach where the world cannot touch me in any way at all? All the limitations of the body old age, disease and everything cannot touch me. All the limitations of the mind there is knowledge that will be ignorance. They cannot touch me. I exist in a very pristine, pure state. That state is called the Atman. That's a divine birthright of you, me and everyone. It's only when we abandon that or slip from that, descend to this lower human level, that's where all the problems of this world begin to jump on our shoulders and trouble us. Yeah, okay, alright, so that's good, swamiji. Where all the problems of this world begin to jump on our shoulders and trouble us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, all right. So that's good, swamiji. So that's given us a good understanding of the spiritual perspective. Right, because what we're saying is, when there's issues, challenges in the world, if you're lifting yourself using the tools as prescribed in the scriptures, then we're able to lift away from these problems While they're there. We just lifted our state and therefore we're able to not ignore them, but sort of go, they're not able to touch you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:You're a witness to those. Yeah, you can see it happening. It doesn't drag you down, it doesn't connect with you. And that's when we so we talked about this mental health. Yes, all right. So now we can get a bigger picture of the spiritual approach to mental health.
Speaker 2:When we say there's a spiritual solution, that means I should be able to detach myself from this mundane world of everyday experience, access something higher, conceptually, intellectually. We understand that part of it, just like that young man, manmathanath Nangoli. He could intellectually understand, but it was not his experience. But when Swami Vivekananda, through his grace, lifted his mind and revealed to him, gave him that experience of that higher level. That happens when some great souls we have that fortune to be in the company of such great souls by the mere presence and proximity they can cast that, you know, do that for us so. But we understand the what do you call the philosophy of it.
Speaker 2:The question is then who is going to do that for us? No one is going to do it. The tools are there. The teachers, spiritual teachers, have shared that knowledge with us. We have to do that. That's why they say meditate, meditate, meditate, and as your mind goes, even fractionally up to that extent, some things will let you go and then you lift it to the next level. At some point you can feel I'm detached, things are not affecting me so much, I'm just watching them around there. So sometimes people ask us how do we measure that we are progressing spiritually? Okay, one of those things would be you don't get really caught up. Things come but they don't really drag you down. You are able to detach yourself, you know, unlike other people who get really caught, yes, and spiral down.
Speaker 2:You can see the levels of anxiety and stress and all that, all those visible in people maybe we can at some stage begin to now talk about some specific mental health issues like stress or ADHD or things like that, in the light of the spiritual teachings we've been discussing.
Speaker 1:Okay, All right, cool, we'll pick that up in the next few episodes. Yeah, all right then.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Samanji Welcome. Thank you.