What does it mean to truly transcend life and death? We compare life to an arrow's flight and a vehicle's journey, discussing how the energy at birth sets the course of one's life, influenced by previous karmas. We ponder the cyclical nature of existence and the soul's quest for realization amidst this repetitive cycle. Finally, we tackle the sensitive topic of non-natural deaths, such as accidents and suicides, through the lens of Vedanta philosophy. Swami Tadananda helps us understand the importance of life's purpose and the far-reaching consequences of our choices, setting the stage for even deeper explorations in future episodes. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that promises to enrich your understanding of life's most profound questions.
www.vedanta.nz
What does it mean to truly transcend life and death? We compare life to an arrow's flight and a vehicle's journey, discussing how the energy at birth sets the course of one's life, influenced by previous karmas. We ponder the cyclical nature of existence and the soul's quest for realization amidst this repetitive cycle. Finally, we tackle the sensitive topic of non-natural deaths, such as accidents and suicides, through the lens of Vedanta philosophy. Swami Tadananda helps us understand the importance of life's purpose and the far-reaching consequences of our choices, setting the stage for even deeper explorations in future episodes. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that promises to enrich your understanding of life's most profound questions.
www.vedanta.nz
Namaste Ritam listeners. My name is Sunil. I'm with Swami Tagananda from the Ramakrishna Vedanta Centre of Auckland, new Zealand. How are you, swamiji?
Speaker 2:I'm good, sunil, very busy. We talked about the project in the last episode, so that is keeping us on the toes.
Speaker 1:That's good, swamiji. It's a very exciting project and it will definitely help a lot of people Well, mental well-being is definitely a big issue, which is the main reason we started the podcast anyway, and so it's good to see that we are progressing this in other ways and not just the podcast way. Yeah, definitely so. Amitji is there. In terms of funding, you mentioned at the moment that you've collected about two-thirds of the funding required. Obviously, you will be looking for more donors.
Speaker 2:Of course, yes, we have been going out and reaching people whom we know, but on our website we have a donation, a fundraising campaign, and anyone wanting to contribute in whatever way can go there and make a donation and it will come to the centre. And since the Vedanta Centre is a registered charitable organisation here in New Zealand, donors will get a receipt which they can use to claim the taxes also?
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, that's good. And what about donors that are overseas based? Also? Yes, okay, that's good. And what about donors that are overseas based?
Speaker 2:We have an organization called Vedanta Charitable Foundation in partner sister organization in Australia, yes, and so donors can donate there as well. Yeah, fiji, through our Ramakrishna Mission.
Speaker 1:Fiji. So Fiji, australia, new Zealand we have centers in all of those areas. Okay, excellent, swamiji, thank you. Let's change the subject. This is an interesting topic. A lot of people don't want to talk about it, but it is something that we can't hide from and obviously the topic is death. What is death and what is the Vedantic perspective of death? We've talked about the various perspectives of life so far. We've talked about different points of view on life. We've talked about the different conflicts. We've talked about the spiritual or the Vedantic view on life. We've talked about the different conflicts. We've talked about the spiritual or the Vedantic perspective of life. I think it would be interesting to start talking about the other side of the coin and talk about the Vedantic perspective of death.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is a perennial question. For thousands and thousands of years mankind has been asking in all cultures, religions around the world, and so it's interesting the way you put it. You know, life and death are like two sides of the same coin. You cannot have one and not the other, but most of the time we are just too busy with life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first side and we know death is there waiting. You know we never know Hope it's going to be long and this and that, but it could just tap you on the shoulder next moment and say, hey, let's go. Are we ready for it? You know what happens. So the question comes. Or sometimes some diseases come, somebody has cancer or something. They are confronted with death. All do not know how to handle that. It puts a lot of tension and stress on people. So much grief suffering is there.
Speaker 2:So it's a topic worthwhile exploring Definitely, and it's not. We are not the first people to ask this question. Actually, one of the Upanishads I talked about yes, that Upanishad is a very poetic Upanishad. There are English translations available worthwhile reading, where a young boy goes to Yamaraj, the lord of death, and asks this question. He was given three boons. The third boon he asked about death. He said the third boon, he asked about death. He said what happens to people when they die? Some say they still remain, others say he does not. What's the truth about it? And so this is where the Upanishadic knowledge really comes Transcending life, okay, to a state where death also cannot touch you. So, interestingly, the perspective comes again and again when you asked me the question about death, and behind that question is death of the body.
Speaker 1:Yes, isn't it? Yes, because all we experience or see is when we say someone's died is the body is no longer alive. Like you, can't see the body, it doesn't have a heartbeat, and that's what we call death.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so doctors, when they certify somebody to be dead, they are looking for the vital signs. And if those signs are absent, which are? Is he breathing? Is the heart beating and so much of the pulse? Is the temperature, is it? If all those symptoms are there, then they say he has departed. Yes, ok, he. They say he has departed, yes, okay, he's gone. Who has gone? No one knows. Okay, has left behind the body. Okay, it's interesting how different cultures put it. You know, the Hindus say he has left the body. In other traditions, he has given up the ghost. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So he has given up the ghost. Yeah, okay, yes, so in the first one I am a spiritual being that have dwelt in the body and now I have abandoned the body. That's the meaning. The other one is I am the body and there was the Father, son and the Holy Ghost. That Holy Ghost has taken off. I am the body and there was the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. That Holy Ghost has taken off left behind the body. Different perspectives, anyway. Anyway, the question comes. Is death, of course, like we said, you know. So what is birth?
Speaker 2:Okay, Birth is not the moment the child is born into the world. So what is birth? Birth is not the moment the child is born into the world, the moment the child, or the Jeeva, the transmigrating soul, assumes and becomes identified with the physical body, even in the womb of the mother. So we have to again expand our perspectives that there is a physical body, there is a mental body, there is a spiritual body and beyond that is the soul, which is no body, bodiless, bodiless. Alright, so when somebody dies, actually they only abandon the physical body. The self still holds on to the other two, the causal body, the spiritual body and the mental body, called the subtle body. Only the physical body he detaches himself. In the Bhagavad Gita, sri Krishna. Krishna says just like we put on clothes and you take them off, likewise the transmigrating self, the soul, puts on bodies and takes them off when they're worn out and old type of thing what's in?
Speaker 1:what's a good analogy that you could give us here, Swamiji, to help explain this a bit better for our listeners.
Speaker 2:So let us say the jiva, before he takes a physical body, must have a purpose to come in this world. Yes, all right. So let us say somebody died, he doesn't have the physical body, he has the subtle body and the causal body, and in these bodies they're not just empty the effects of our previous karma, prarabdha and all that desires. As we sow, so we shall reap. And all those things are stored in a very subtle, fine form, like the software program is there in the mind. And the jiva who has got strong desires for a particular experience we call them desires vasanas or has done certain actions and needs to work out the results of those as you sow, so you shall reap. Those are all lodged in that mind, in the subtle body.
Speaker 2:So in the next life, the duration of the life where one will be born and what type of experiences one will go through are determined by the conditioning of the mind, accordingly that Jeeva, the transmigrating soul, takes birth in a particular family and and has got programmed for himself various experiences that he will go through One, to work out all those karmas and second, to learn certain things out of them. We are here in this world not to enjoy, we are here to learn. The soul is becoming wiser and wiser, learning through various experiences. So imagine this. Life is a journey, all right, but imagine it in this way Somebody mounts an arrow on a bow and pulls it. The string, with a certain amount of force, points it in a particular direction, lets it go, and when we land in this world, that's the moment the arrow is released so to say.
Speaker 1:So, when we are like in the physical world, when we have this yeah, so what is in that?
Speaker 2:arrow Arrow is made of two things. One is the physical world when we have birth. Yeah, so what is in that? Arrow Arrow is made of two things. One is the physical shaft.
Speaker 2:But there's an energy embedded in it which is determining its flight. Yeah, that energy was imparted to it by the bow and by the person who was holding the bow using the bow. Okay, so all our desires, okay, vasanas and prarabdha. Is that energy that has been imparted and delivered to the physical shaft, which is the arrow? So the physical body is like the arrow Right, but inside, embedded in that arrow, is this energy, yes, which is now going to determine in which direction it's going to go. Yes, the moment it leaves the bow, there's no control on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so once it's taken birth.
Speaker 2:Once the birth is given, then the trajectory of life, whether somebody lives for 40 years or 60 years, is determined by that energy. How far the arrow is going to go 10 meters or 20 meters is determined by how much energy has been given to it.
Speaker 1:Right, and the energy came with the soul.
Speaker 2:Yes, so he's the creator of his own destiny. You know, it's not somebody else has given it to him. His own previous karmas from previous lifetime which were lodged in his mind, subtle body, are now becoming released at the physical level. So imagine us coming in this world assuming a body, but there's something driving that. How far it will go, what will be the length, what will be the experiences in that, that's already sort of decided to some extent it will go through a storm.
Speaker 1:It will go through a storm.
Speaker 2:Good weather, good weather, all those things are there, so that's why we don't have much control of things.
Speaker 1:Yes, you see, things are happening.
Speaker 2:Internally, things are there, designing things, external things we can change around a little bit, but the internal things are conditioned, but the internal things are conditioned. So, and then, when that journey there was flying through, energy is getting worked out, yes, okay, and at a certain point it will come where the energy is sort of dissipated. Yes, and the vehicle, the body also, has lost its stamina and all those things. Yes, and so naturally, at some point the arrow will hit the, its stamina and all those things. Yes, and so naturally, at some point the arrow will hit the ground. Yes, journey stops, arrow is left behind.
Speaker 2:What happens to the rest of the energy that was there? Well, some energy, gorex worked out. Yes, the rest, the arrow will relaunch. Yes, so the physical body is abundant when you have a physical death, but remember, the soul is not dying. So, to be more exact, we always should say death of the body, okay, physical body. And then, if the energy is still left undissipated, that means we still have those karmas in praratha, sanchita, karma unused. So the asha has got more than one arrow. It puts another arrow and shoots that out again.
Speaker 1:Could we use the other analogy where you talk about a motor vehicle with fuel?
Speaker 2:Yes, suppose birth means you have a journey to travel from one city to another. Okay, in this highway, you select a vehicle black, brown, white, electric, hybrid, whatever. All right, you put so much petrol. You choose which road you'll take. It could be straight motorway. It could be motorway. It could be meandering, it could be in a rush to complete the whole journey in quick time. It could be travel slowly, sightseeing. It could be I'll travel alone, solo. It could be I'll have so many friends, family members. There'll be my co-travelers and all those type of things, our co-travelers and all those type of things.
Speaker 2:So just look at the body as a vehicle that is supposed to help us in traveling from one point to the other, and the journey is about experiencing certain things. Okay, we come from that experience, we learn to learn from them. So a wise person uses that car very well, you know. So you look after it, you maintain it, you make sure you drive carefully, don't run in, have accidents with that. And on the way you'll pick up some people. You know which could be your wife or husband first passenger, and then you pick a few more. It could be children. You offload some passengers, you know, okay, parents, grandparents are going, and the journey is going on and you're learning many things in that process.
Speaker 2:And at a certain point you come, actually, it's a rental car, it's not your car, it's not yours, and they say, hey, time's up. You know the rental period is over, you can pay only this much, you can just hand it over. Alright. And he said it saved my purpose. I came in this world, I needed to go to that particular place. I rented a car, I used it well and at a certain point I drop it off. Or it is like a car in a more modern way. We can say ran out of fuel or ran out of battery Charge.
Speaker 1:So, in terms of death, death is when you run out of fuel. So, in terms of death, death is when you run out of fuel. The energy is done for the body natural death natural death, timely death. Timely death is when all of these things happen, you reach the end point and therefore, so what happens then?
Speaker 2:so you come to the end you come to the city and say, okay, I have to leave the car behind, so it's your body behind, body behind. I serviced it, you know, as much as possible, took very good care of it, but doesn't go any further. Yes, so I get out, okay, but my journey is not stuck. This is just one leg of the journey. Right, I need another car. Right, all right To go to the next destination?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he picks up another car Right and says, hey, this time I'm going to drive a white car. You know, yeah, yeah, you know I'll have a female body. Yes, you know I will have some variety of experience. You know I will travel this whatever desires are there. So he picks up one and then he goes in that journey and like this if you go think retrospectively and say this is not my first car?
Speaker 2:No, I've been in this, okay. I have had many, many rentals, yeah, okay. The cycle of birth yeah. So the jiva comes in this life, experiences, enjoys, suffers, goes and at some point he'll say, oh, no more. This is just a repetition of the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when does it end? When does the repetition end? Because it just keeps going. So let's say you're going from Wellington to Auckland, but the first kitchen was Wellington to Tarpon right and then you change the car and then Tarpon to I don't know Hamilton so far, and then so where do you, where do you go? What's the top?
Speaker 2:and then you stop when you lose all the interest in this traveling Right.
Speaker 1:When the energies go like, this is I'm done with this.
Speaker 2:I have no more desires to travel in cars anymore. Okay, you know, and why.
Speaker 1:Well, you played them out over time.
Speaker 2:Well, if you find that you are everywhere. Then where will you go? The Atman is omnipresent. It's only in ignorance that it becomes embodied, limited, and now he's got a in a gross way requires a gross vehicle to travel across. So liberation is that reaching that state? In the last podcast we talked about earlier, when we talked about the spiritual dimension of our being, one of the qualities of this soul is it's omnipresent. It's everywhere, right? So if you're everywhere.
Speaker 1:Where do you go? So why are we doing this? Yes, why are we playing this game? We've lost that knowledge Misstanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that we are everywhere, yeah, and when that knowledge comes, the game stops. That's the Vedanta perspective. We are spiritual beings, free now in the spiritual dimension, but that knowledge of our freedom has been lost and has been replaced by this identity, this body, and now we are operating in this with the type of level of understanding, with the type of perspective is there. So if we can change our perspective, then you'll find that your approach to life and everything will also correspondingly change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I'm just trying to take it all in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. We asked a very high-level question. Ultimately it's there. So when somebody becomes liberated, mukta free, what we call self-realization, God-realization, you know, that is reaching that state where we are just body-less, we're not ignorant anymore. So we said there are three bodies Physical body, subtle body, gross body, subtle body and the causal body. Okay, but the Atman is a no body.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there is no body. So no body means no limitation. Body is limited in some form or the other. That which is ice is energy in a very gross, low frequency. Water is that same substance, slightly higher temperature. Water vapor is again same substance, even higher temperature, but imagine it is not bound by any matter. That pure energy as it is, that would be like the universal Atman or the self that you and me and everyone is. So the traveling stops when we reclaim that state, that's when we are absolutely free.
Speaker 1:So to stop the cycle of birth and death, you need to become less ignorant, more knowledgeable, more knowledgeable.
Speaker 2:So after traveling through so many journeys, having all types of experiences, the soul becomes wiser, yes, more knowledgeable, okay, and it says there's no happiness in this world. Everything ends with a death. Yes, okay, no matter what, no matter what, what you do, everything is so transient here. Suppose you know if somebody gave you the capacity to look back at your 100 lifetimes, just like you know, go back into the like a movie playback. You know and you see. Each life where you were born and body went through different experiences, happiness and this, and that it ended and another one started and ended. After seeing 30, 40 sets, just repetition is pretty boring. I do not know why I am doing that. When that idea comes, there's no utility of it and you develop this dispassion. I don't want…. This is a very low level existence compared to the the time.
Speaker 1:So, Swamiji, how does this relate to?
Speaker 2:other traditions, so Christianity, yes. So what I shared with you is the Vedanta tradition. Okay, christianity has got its own theology. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:So they say you know when?
Speaker 2:you die. I suppose those who believe in Christ you know so, they say you know, when you die, I suppose those who believe in Christ, you know, christ will return and they will be raised and they will go to heaven and live ever after in the company of God. You know so, those who are pious, who are good people, that will be the destination. Right, who are good people, that will be the destination. And those who missed out, you know, whatever reason, will go to the other side and be roasted forever in hell. There is their understanding. Buddhists talk about their understanding of nirvana, which is the total cessation of all suffering, and to this cycle of births and deaths. You know so. Every culture, every religion has got its own perspective and people are free to choose what makes sense or how they are brought up, and it's all fine. The soul is going through all these different experiences for its education.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's where you know we will talk about a cycle of births, and that's. The birth can be taken up, if the soul so desires, in a different tradition. So it could be a Hindu on one cycle. It could be a Christian, of course.
Speaker 2:It's not that you might be. Some conditioning might continue. So if you are repeatedly born in a particular tradition, you can imagine then those cultures and practices would have embedded themselves in your mind and therefore you continue in that same tradition. Right, because you're inheriting the mind. It's your own mind. All the knowledge and everything is there. So it's like when you end the day and go to sleep, when you get up in the morning, you continue with the same mind and carry on the similar work in the next day. So here, coming at the end of the day means time to abandon one body. You take a bit of rest and you wake up in a new body and carry on, okay.
Speaker 1:So interesting, right. So you, we've sort of looked at it from a very high level perspective where we've said it's just life is only, death is just a transition rather than an absolute end yes, it's just a rest house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, where you know, normally when the body is all healthy and good and things are nice, people don't want to think about death, okay but when people become very old is all healthy and good and things are nice.
Speaker 2:People don't want to think about death. Okay. But when people become very old and the body is aching and suffering and disease has set in, then you find that same people will say okay, you know, I don't want to carry on anymore, it's just too painful to exist in this body.
Speaker 2:Many a time people have, of of course, in different philosophies. They have their own understanding what happens at death and after death. And then there are these modern people who are the atheists, who don't believe in after death, that anything exists there. Mostly, they have a very material conception of themselves, that we are a body combination of so many atoms okay, and they're all held together in this organism and the mind is a product of brain activity and a sense of awareness and sense of individuality and personality and there's nothing more to that. And so so when that event happens at death, where this whole bundle aggregate disintegrates, matter returns to nitrogen, carbon, oxygen and all that, and then what happened to that individual who was there? Well, you'll find that they don't have any understanding, and so, in their sense, there's nothing left there.
Speaker 1:Right. So every tradition has got a different day and obviously atheists have a different day as well. What you talked about today has been mainly on when there's a natural sort of end natural death. Yes, it's going to be interesting to talk about. What about accidents? What about suicides where it's not a natural death? Yes, it's going to be interesting to talk about. What about accidents? What about suicides?
Speaker 1:where it's not a natural end. I think it will be worthwhile just trying to understand what happens then Maybe in the next episode we could we can look at that.
Speaker 2:What is so?
Speaker 2:If you understand what life is, what's the meaning and purpose why we are here, how we landed in this situation, what purpose, why we are here, how we landed in this situation, what will happen in our life is partly going to be determined by what we brought in and partly about the choices we'll make in this lifetime.
Speaker 2:It's a complex thing, okay, and when difficulties come in our life, sometimes we find that it's more painful and sometimes people make choices, like you mentioned just now, to not go through the experiences and they want to take upon themselves to make the decision to discontinue or put a stop to it, thinking that is going to be an end to suffering mostly, but in Vedanta that is going to be an end to suffering mostly, but in Vedanta. If you understand why we are here, how it came into be, you'll understand that that's not a very good choice. Actually, it's a very, very poor choice where we land ourselves in a far worse situation than anything one could be experiencing here, far worse situation than anything one could be experiencing here, and probably we'll need to discuss that a little bit in detail when we try to explain that. Okay, we can take that up.
Speaker 1:Yes, we'll take that up separately, Swamiji. Thank you, Swamiji.
Speaker 2:Welcome, sunil. Thank you, talk to you soon. Yeah, I'll catch up.