Swami Tadananda illuminates how our samskaras, vasanas, and karmas transcend lifetimes, shaping our existence and experiences.
In our conversation, we confront the harsh reality of mental anguish and the existential question of untimely death. Swami Tadannanda dispels the myth that ending one's physical existence alleviates suffering, explaining the deeper spiritual ramifications. Through the lens of the Bhagavad Gita, we explore the critical importance of cultivating positive thoughts and maintaining mental clarity. Listeners will gain practical advice on managing the mind, avoiding negative spirals, and fostering mindfulness for mental and spiritual well-being. Join us for this enlightening and compassionate dialogue that addresses life's deepest questions and offers pathways to inner peace.
www.vedanta.nz
Swami Tadananda illuminates how our samskaras, vasanas, and karmas transcend lifetimes, shaping our existence and experiences.
In our conversation, we confront the harsh reality of mental anguish and the existential question of untimely death. Swami Tadannanda dispels the myth that ending one's physical existence alleviates suffering, explaining the deeper spiritual ramifications. Through the lens of the Bhagavad Gita, we explore the critical importance of cultivating positive thoughts and maintaining mental clarity. Listeners will gain practical advice on managing the mind, avoiding negative spirals, and fostering mindfulness for mental and spiritual well-being. Join us for this enlightening and compassionate dialogue that addresses life's deepest questions and offers pathways to inner peace.
www.vedanta.nz
Namaste, dear Dalai business. My name is Sunil. I'm with Swami Tadannanda from the Ramakrishna Vedanta Center of Auckland, new Zealand. How are you, swamiji?
Speaker 2:Good. Sunil Busy Just came back from Wellington. It's been a bit hectic over the last week.
Speaker 1:Yes, I saw that article in the video of your trip and you spent some time at the High Commission.
Speaker 2:Yes, they invited me to give a talk, gave me an opportunity to talk about our mental well-being project with the people there. So, yeah, it was good meeting so many people.
Speaker 1:Excellent. That's very good and that's, in a way, trying to really spread the message instead of it just being through this podcast. And you're based in Auckland, obviously, but that trip in Wellington would hopefully connect more listeners to the podcast plus spread the message.
Speaker 2:Well, the problem is all over New Zealand, so if people get to know what we are doing here, they would be interested to hopefully engage and see how we could be of some service to the people there. At least we met some very interesting people and had conversations on that land there.
Speaker 1:Okay, swamiji, in the last episode we talked about death, especially the Vedantic perspective of death, where you talked to us about the cycle of birth and death and how we are stuck in the cycle until we get more illumined, I suppose is the word and that's when the soul sort of goes, that's it, no more of this, and goes to moksha, right. But in the last episode you also, right at the end, you touched on a subject of untimely death. I think that's a subject we need to explore further. Can we spend some time today on that?
Speaker 2:Sure. So let us try to just put the overall perspective about life and death At the core of our existence, of being. We are a pure spiritual being. Infinite existence, knowledge, bliss of the nature of infinite knowledge, beauty, purity, freedom, goodness, all that, that is what we all are here and now. That's the fundamental part which you should never forget. That self is called the Atman. The Atman embodies itself In the three bodies. We say three layers, three layers of the onion the spiritual body, causal body, the mental body and the physical body. So when we say birth and death, basically it means birth of the body and death of the body, if you use the full phrase. The other two layers remain stuck with that the spiritual body and the mental body.
Speaker 2:In the journey of life, from the moment we are born, we go through different experiences, good and bad, pleasant and painful, and they all leave the impressions. The impressions are not left on the mind, in the brain, but on the mind. So, due to old age, whatever reason, when the body, physical body, is discarded and here discarding means, like Sri Krishna tells in the Gita at when an old garment that we are wearing is worn out and old, we take that off and put a new shirt. Likewise, the Jiva discards the old, worn out body and puts a new one. But the content of the mind, the samskaras, the impressions, are called the samskaras. The desires they're called vasanas that I wanted to have this experience, that experience, but they did not get fulfilled in this life. But the desire is still there, so it will look for an opportune moment in the next life and maybe fulfill that. So they're called vasanas, or desires. And then our karmas. What we do, everything has got a consequence. As you sow, so one shall reap. If you have done good here, then the good will come. If you have done something bad, then one has to work that out. Also, those things are called our karma.
Speaker 2:And so all these energies, visualize them in the mind space. These are little whirlpools, like in a pond of water, creek water is flowing. You see little eddy currents. Eddy current is really an energy that is spinning the water around in that way. Or in the air we see a little bit of whirlpools, which is eddy currents, which are like the tornado or dust devil. So these are little energies there and they are all whirling around in a vortex inside our mind. Visualize that Some of that will express themselves out, like what happens when a tornado. Tornado is a whirling, tremendous amount of energy, but when it gets grounded, sucks in dust and dirt and all those things. Then it exhausts that energy out. So these energies are there in the mind space and when we take the physical body, that's where it begins to express itself out, work itself out Okay.
Speaker 2:So those actions that we're going through sometimes pleasant ones, sometimes painful ones, disease, whatever grief comes in there these are energies that are in the mind space, but they are beginning to express themselves and that's what we call the experiences of life. All right. So if you get the whole context right, then we say what's happening in this journey? So, if you get the whole context right, then we say what's happening in this journey? It's not just I've come in this world and no, it sets in motion a whole chain of things, okay, and one leads to the other Throughout the journey. All the experiences are working out, this karma, the karma that starts at the beginning of life.
Speaker 2:We explained it like somebody is shooting an arrow out in a particular direction with a certain amount of energy. We said that energy is going to determine how far that arrow will go, the flight of that. So the arrow is really designed. The purpose of the arrow is to work out that energy Ultimately. When all that energy of the arrow is to work out that energy, ultimately, when all that energy in the mind is worked out and the mind becomes free of all that energies, it becomes absolutely calm and in that calm mind the soul's energy or soul's glories becomes reflected and the jiva says oh, this is, I, am the spiritual being. But until that happens, the jiva says, oh, this is, I am the spiritual being, but until that happens, the Jiva is identified with all these thoughts and ideas, these vertices, energies that are in the mind. So it's I'm happy, I'm unhappy, I know.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:So actually that is the source of bondage. All right, so life is a process through which we are going through a purification. You might say Okay, and in the process, unknowingly or knowingly, we accumulate more of that energy. We do more karma, we are adding something more, we are working out something more, and that's how the cycle keeps on repeating. But suppose one were very careful not to add much more. That means you do everything without attachment, without the sense. I am the doer. Cycle keeps on repeating. But suppose one were very careful not to add much more. That means you do everything without attachment, without the sense. I am the doer. That's what the scriptures are saying. I just want to work things out and come out clean at the end. If you're not careful, you have added more dust and dirt that needs future cleansing. Yes, okay.
Speaker 2:Now if you have that type of understanding, that's a spiritual perspective of then we, when these good times come, bad times come, we have a spiritual perspective to them. Difficult times come, suffering comes. You say, okay, some of that old karma is getting worked out, let it get worked out. I have, I'm the architect of this life, I have done this, so I am going to forbear that. Put up with that, just detach myself and, like you got a sore, okay, the boil or something comes out.
Speaker 2:I am going to let that poison come out and it will heal itself, but I am not going to keep on scratching it out and all those type of things. So these manifestations of fortune and misfortune, happiness and misery, all those things will come in life and they're designed. The experiences that we are in, the family that we are born, the people that we are around at your workplace, or situations that will happen in your lifetime, they are designed for this type of purpose. But we have a spiritual meaning to these things. So we just reaffirm who we are, why we are, and there is a utility of that painful experience. Also, you might say it's working itself out so you accept it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, accept it. I'm not going to be patient with it. It won't last forever, okay, but it's better to get it out of the way. Yes, okay, and let me detach myself from it or remind myself who I am. I'm not the body. The body is having those experiences. I'm not the mind. Also, the mind is having these experiences. I'm the pure soul With that type of spiritual understanding and sadhana, meditation and all those things strengthens that self identity that I am a spiritual being. If you don't do that, then the identity becomes I am this mind or I am this body, and we get caught into that vortex back to the material things in life yes, and we get caught into that.
Speaker 1:Then we are attached back to the material things in life, yes, and we get caught into that, and then ego comes in. All those things come in there, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, also, while we are discussing this, we are giving a direction how we are going to solve this. Also, we can take this a little bit more in detail. But so, if we have that understanding and perspective that these things are meant there, ultimately, ultimately, from a spiritual perspective, the painful ones are also great teachers, great purifiers. And then we go through that. But sometimes it happens when that knowledge and understanding is not there and you feel that physical pain is easier to probably handle and you can address it by seeking help of a doctor. You know medical people who will treat it for you from outside, give you medication, give injection, dress it out for you, facilitate the healing process that's possible by others for the physical body. In this world we have developed medical sciences significantly. Yes, the problem is our understanding of this mind is very, very poor. Yeah, okay, who is teaching us about mind? Parents? Do they talk to us about what this mind is? No, the other people who influence or guide us through teenage and youth are teachers. Do they talk about what this mind is? No, we have feelings, we have understanding, we have knowledge, but some very confused type of understanding is there and I ask these questions to doctors, to engineers to scientists what is the mind? Tell me a little bit more, just as much you can tell me about something outside, and many people give some very hazy answer I don't really know, and yet we are using that tool all the time. So I think a deeper understanding of the, our internal, inner self is important. Knowledge is very powerful, knowledge is purifying, but that self-knowledge, inner knowledge, is necessary.
Speaker 2:Anyway, so he has this jiva flying through arois flying through, it reaches some turbulence, crosswinds are there, all those things are happening. Flight is getting, plane is shaking, shaky, shaky, not comfortable, you know, and all those things, and sometimes the headwinds can be very, very strong. You might not feel that you're making any progress. Life is too hard to carry on. Okay, and some people might get the idea that maybe if I put an end to this arrow, the body that will put an end to my arrow, the body that will put an end to my suffering. Also, and we said that that's not a very wise choice, it's a very ignorant choice. Anyone who do take that choice would be doing not out of good understanding of life and its plan for us. That is there. So you might ask the question why would somebody do that in the first place. Well, what do you think?
Speaker 1:Well, there would be, as you said, probably it's not a physical thing, it's more of a mental thing, where they're potentially very, you know, sad, lonely, depressed, pain, and, yeah, in a very painful state, and therefore they would want, you know, they think this is an escape. We are Escape of this suffering and put an end to their lives right, and a lot of people I mean, as with well-being. We can see a lot of people doing this youth adults.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lot of people doing this, youth adults, yeah, so the decision, the basis of the decision, is this is going to put an end to that pain.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, yes.
Speaker 2:And what we're telling is that is not founded in the truth. So if somebody is very lonely here and is feeling that inner pain, then he thinks after this that loneliness will go and that pain will also go, because he's associating the pain with the…. The pain is where In the mind?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, but is he putting the end to the mind?
Speaker 1:No, just the body, right, yeah, but the pain is he putting the end to the mind, no, just the body.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, but the point is, pain is not in the body.
Speaker 1:So, by putting the body of your, pain carries on with you the pain carries on right, so it's the logic of it's now without the body yeah, it's now without the body and the vehicle through which that energy was supposed to work.
Speaker 2:get worked out. That has been destroyed, yes, and you are left caught in that same painful state without any means of working that out.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You end up being more lonelier than before. At least previously, there were people accessing around you. You could reach out to them. They were trying to reach to you, but something could work out. You could communicate with them. They were trying to reach to you, but something could work out. You could communicate with them. Now you have got rid of the body, but you still exist in what's called a disembodied state.
Speaker 2:You are still there, in that subtle body, with spinning, in that same energy, yet maybe trying to call out, and yet no one can hear you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, how painful would that be? So that's even worse, isn't it? It's even worse. That's what I'm saying. Okay, imagine, you know you are like.
Speaker 2:So either you talk about the arrow and the flight of the arrow, or we say, okay, the, the, the jiva is as high as a car to go from one place to a destination and the road is the, the journey. In that car, he has got so much petrol and all that, but if he has an accident on the way, the vehicle is destroyed, he has stepped out on the roadside, yet no one can give him the lift because they don't see him. Yeah, okay, he can't continue that journey. That is even a worse condition than saying, hey, if I've got a rattly old car, somehow I'll reach the destination, no matter how bad it is, but it'll take me to there, the goal.
Speaker 2:So that's what happens to a person who has come to what is called akala mrityu, untimely death. Kaal means that the lifespan is. Ayush is called in Sanskrit. It's the lifespan that has decided how much, what's the distance the arrow will fly to totally expand that energy, work it out, and then it will have a natural fall and work out. That is called timely death. That's what happens at old age. You're working out, working out and then towards the last you know, you can see a whole pile of energies that are getting worked out, that old age disease and all those type of things are there and at some point, once it has worked out, it just falls natural death.
Speaker 2:It's good, okay. So you forbear, forbear, forbear, knowing that even in the midst of suffering, this is a process of purification. Let that happen, because that's the whole purpose of it and the body is designed for that. But if somebody says a little bit of pain has come and it's a mental space, the pain is more in the mental space and you, instead of if we could destroy the mind, then I would say make some sense, but you're not doing anything in that level a person would do, get rid of or destroy the physical body. The painful element is still stuck in the mind and one is now in a worse situation stranded on the roadside, so to say, alone, can't communicate.
Speaker 1:So are they still in the same world, so in this world we live in, or are they in a different world?
Speaker 2:When you say the same world, then you have to define the same world. Is the world physical world? Of course it's not in the physical world anymore, but this is not the only world. This is the physical dimension of existence. There's a mental dimension of existence, existence, there's a mental dimension of existence and there's a spiritual dimension of existence. So he's still in that mental whirlpool, but he can't go forward, he can't go backward, he's caught in there so how do we help a soul that's in this space?
Speaker 2:well, so he's helpless. Ok, he's an invisible driver on the roadside in this space. Well, so he is helpless. Okay, he's an invisible driver on the roadside. Everyone is driving past and no one is able to give him a lift. People want to help him, but you do not know where he has gone. You see, and how to communicate and how to what to do.
Speaker 2:Most people do not know what to do, so your loved ones are left behind who are trying to understand, maybe can't understand why it happened, how you know. Anyway, there's a lot of pain and confusion that we leave behind also, that lingers on. So these discussions are meant for two types of people. One, anyone who is contemplating that say, please don't go down that path. It's a down that path, it's very deep, it's worse and you'll be worse off. There are solutions available, apart from the spiritual solutions to this. Okay, and that's what we'll be discussing. All right, but for the second lot of people who are left behind when some tragedy like this happens in their family around, what can they do? They definitely love that person very much. They feel very pained, maybe blaming themselves we could have done this, we could have done this, we could have done that and now they feel we cannot do anything more. So your question is can anyone?
Speaker 1:help that person? Yeah. Can anyone help this person? Yes.
Speaker 2:So what our scriptures, our teachings say is that anything that is done for anyone whether it's an untimely death or even people when they die, normal death is there and, like elderly parents passed away and you want to do something for them, anything I can do that repay my debt to them or help them in this onward journey, then all scripture, most spiritual traditions, will have various ways to be of some support and help to those people. So the basic idea is any pious person, good deed done on behalf of those people, on behalf of those people, helps them on that way. Right, okay, so you are saying, like you know, you can transfer good karma, so to say.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Just like you can transfer money into somebody's account, okay, here, your son is in another country, he needs some help and you put some money in his account and suddenly some cash appears in his bank account there. Maybe he knows who has sent or he does not know who has sent, but he can use that money to do something. Yes, right, good karma can also be transferred, transferred. Transferred, that will appear in his spiritual account. Right, and help him on.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:He used that money. Okay, it's a good karma you have. So you might say what could be the types of good karma one can do. So you'll find that people will do some spiritual activity, a special puja, you know they might have a Bhagwat Saptah. You know, have a spiritual program. A lot of people come. They might feed so many people. It's a good karma. Yes, okay, they might donate, help anyone. Anything you do. Okay, you help in any way. It brings good karma to you. But you are not saying I'm doing it for myself, I'm doing it on behalf of this, so and so, yes, I'm doing it on behalf of this.
Speaker 1:So and so, yes, okay, it's with very good intentions, right?
Speaker 2:with the intention that this will help that person. Yes, so you know. Okay, somebody is there. He cannot do any more karma in that state.
Speaker 2:No, alright yes and this person at least understanding. Let me, what can I do? So? But these are material things. If you don't have the money, you can't probably do it. Maybe all those things are not easily available.
Speaker 2:So what is the most powerful karma that a mother or father, husband, wife or friend or relatives can do for somebody in that type of situation? Okay, you made a wrong choice. He's stuck there. I understand. How do we help him work and complete the rest of journey and then carry on his cycle? Okay, the most powerful is one can do japa for that particular person.
Speaker 2:All right, mantras, mantras, repetition of mantras is a tremendous spiritual discipline and you're doing it not for yourself. When you finish your japa, you offer it to one's own chosen ideal God and say I'm doing this on behalf of that person. Can you please help him on in that journey, and it doesn't cost you anything. It's better to do that. It's therapeutic for the person who's doing it.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, because he's not caught in that suffering and misery themselves and they also feel okay, I'm still, I'm able to do something for that person. So it's a little positive type of thing. Rather than beating yourself or feeling sorry, blaming all those type of things, you do a positive activity and it's very, very powerful. It's very, very powerful. So the advice is to the people left behind who want to help somebody is to take that path. Japa meditation, do it on behalf of that person, offer to your spiritual deity to whom you because he is the one who is connecting both and say, hey, can, can you? It's like your banker bank account is there, now the same bank is there you got two accounts.
Speaker 2:They say can I transfer the money here, can you please deposit it there, type of thing, right? So suddenly you have a tool to help, continue to help that person on. Yes, alright, and you also feel that you are not so helpless. And you also feel that you're not so helpless. Anyway, that's a spiritual thing. When those things happen, you can also do things that will bring solace or relief to people. So people might say let me build some service activity in memory and honor of this particular person. So there's an ongoing type of service that will good that comes out of it, because that person might say I do not know where he's stuck. You know how long, how much is necessary, okay, and how much I can do, whether I have done sufficiently or not to help him out, you know. But they might create something through which is an ongoing. For example, somebody might say let me build a hospital, let me relieve place, build a school or something through which some good is coming to the community, and every good karma has got its good reasons.
Speaker 1:They might contribute to the wellness center.
Speaker 2:Any good karma? Yes, any good karma can be done. So here we discussed about a solution to this. We have talked about why it should not be the choice. We probably haven't talked about what would be the what a person who is in that type of situation now he has heard this I, I should not do this, but that doesn't hasn't take the painful mental state there. He said, okay, I don't want to do that. I understand, but how do I get out of this?
Speaker 1:This painful state. What are the?
Speaker 2:tools that I can use. What are the tools there? And maybe we can discuss that, sure in another episode. Sure does it make sense about at least a clarity is sufficient.
Speaker 2:Clarity is there yeah, that somebody immediately says oh, I should not even think down that line. Exactly that moment that first head comes, one should knock it away, because if you repeatedly some think of something, it gets a life of its own, yes, and the mind will begin to run in that rut. Yeah, and it's a negative thought. The downward spiral, the downward spiral, and it will tend to drag it down and the dangers are worse as it goes down. It's very, very important for a person who and it's easier to nip it in the bud in the early stages it's very, very important that all efforts should be made to lift the mind up.
Speaker 2:Okay, in the Bhagavad Gita, when Arjuna becomes depressed and becomes confused, he's not able to do his duty and all that he reaches out to Sri Krishna. Sri Krishna gives this wonderful, very, very scientific advice. He says look, my friend, you have two choices. One of the choices will make you a friend of yourself. The other one will make you an enemy of yourself. Atmanyeva atmano bandhu. Atmanyeva ripura. Atmana Ripu means enemy, bandhu means friend. No one wants to be one's own enemy. Okay, what are the choices?
Speaker 2:If you raise your mind upwards, uddharedha atmana atmanam, lift your mind with the help of your higher mind, intelligence, spiritual dimension. Use that to lift yourself. Then you will become your own friend. But if you don't, then the mind begins to spiral down. Do not let your mind spiral down. If you can lift it, you become your friend. If you fail to lift it and it begins to spiral down, if you can lift it, you become your friend. If you fail to lift it and it begins to spiral down, it can become your own enemy. This is the whole science of it. The question would be if somebody has gone down a few notches and it finds oneself in a dark spot, how do we come out of it, that would be. Those would be some of the things we'll take up in the next time, excellent.
Speaker 1:Thank you, swamiji, that's been quite enlightening. Welcome, sunil.