Writing Your Resilience Podcast Transcript for
Episode 22: Addiction, Recovery, and Confronting the Good Mother Myth
with Ann Batchelder
At the beginning of the year, Ann Batchelder sent me a podcast pitch I couldn’t refuse. After reading her memoir, Craving Spring: A Mother’s Quest, a Daughter’s Depression, and the Greek Myth that Brought Them Together, I was so glad I didn’t. Ann is not only a talented writer and editor, she’s a gifted speaker who’s been on many podcasts. Her work has appeared in Insider Magazine, Newsweek, Hippocampus, The Linden Review, and The Rumpus. To learn more about her many accomplishments and all the interesting things she’s up to, please see the show notes.
During this episode, Ann and I looked at addiction and recovery through multiple lenses, explored some of the common traps writers face, and examined the myths we live by—both those that bring us solace and those that get us in trouble.
Before we get to our conversation, I have a few questions for you. How much do you know about the myths your family lives by? Are there any you’d like to ditch? Is there a myth, book, or story that has served as a companion for your journey? And finally, what writing traps do you frequently fall into? I hope you’ll ponder these questions as you listen along. Now, let’s get to my interview with Ann Batchelder.
Lisa [0:00]
Well, hello, Ann, welcome to the Writing Your Resilience podcast. I am delighted to have you on.
Ann [0:06]
Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. This is great.
Lisa [0:09]
I really loved your book. It was such a pleasure to read. And, oh my gosh, this cover is also very beautiful. What's interesting is that I have a page that is bookmarked, and the colors—for those of you who are watching this, if you are listening, you can't see that I'm holding up her book. It has these beautiful—are these orchids? The orange orchids at the bottom match my sticky note, which is kind of fortuitous. Your book is Craving Spring: A Mother's Quest, a Daughter's Depression, and the Greek Myth that Brought Them Together. What would you like us to know about your book?
Ann [0:45]
The story is about a woman whose life is suddenly upended when her teenage daughter comes home and admits to severe depression, including addictive behavior and suicidal thoughts. So she is completely undone by this and starts to try to figure out how could this happen? I thought our family was fine. When did these problems start? What's wrong with me as a mother? What have I done wrong? In a desperate attempt to rescue her daughter, she starts looking into 12-step programs and therapy and reading some Buddhist literature, trying to understand what's going on. She gains a lot of insight from all those things, but she really finds her solace and comfort from reading a Greek myth about a mother-daughter story, which is the myth of Demeter and Persephone. Ultimately, the book is really about the power of story, and how we can feel seen when we read something that we can relate to and understand. We feel seen, but we also learn what we need to change by reading a story like that. So that's kind of the message of the story. Well, there are many layers to it, but that's basically it.
Lisa [2:14]
Yeah, and, you know, I'm not a mother, I don't have children. Yet your book really hit me. There are so many layers around recovery and addiction, which is something that plays a big role in my life and in my family. It's been a huge issue, lots and lots of addiction just going through the generations. I've had my own recovery journey that I've been on, which is probably similar to the journey that you were on. As I was reflecting on your book, this is something that I wrote down: "There are stories we are living that we don't really know or understand. We just think this is what it means to be good, or kind, or right. And then there's the opposite." Your story delves into that. What I really enjoyed about this, and we're going to talk about the myth, because I know that writers are going to want to know how you did that. So, we're going to get into that, but I want to begin by talking about how, so often—and we were talking about this before I hit the record button—we write about someone else and then realize it's about us. There is a way that these two characters, the mother and the daughter, are on these parallel journeys. At what point in your writing process did you realize that was actually the story?
Ann [3:41]
Well, first, it took about 10 years to write this story. It began when my daughter was in high school and college. I started journaling a lot about what was going on because when I write, it helps me think. Even once I started taking some writing classes around this project, I wasn't sure I was going to write a book, but all my writing really was about what happened to her. How did that happen to her? What was wrong with our family? What was wrong with me? But it was not until I decided to put the book together, which is when the pandemic started. I spent about three years actually thinking, "Okay, if I'm going to do a book, let me look at this more deeply." The more I started writing, the more I came up with questions about myself. In the beginning, it was like, "Oh, poor me. I have this issue facing me with my child who's depressed. How am I going to understand that?" But then I started thinking about, "Well, wait a minute, who are my demons? Why am I blaming myself so much? Why am I trying to fix all this? What does this say about my conditioning and my upbringing and my understanding of my society? What has brought me to this point? What am I afraid of in myself?" Once I started to see myself in that way, the story just got much more interesting, because I couldn't really assume what she was thinking, what was going on with her. I could pretend to know, but I didn't know. I was able to unravel what was going on with me. That's when it shifted for me, when I started putting the book together and started really thinking, "Oh, this is not about her. It's about me and what my journey is and what is my addiction." I don't have substance abuse issues personally, but I did understand that I could also be addicted to her recovery, which is kind of what the story's about.
Lisa [5:50]
Say more about that.
Ann [5:52]
Well, there's so much that I learned about when I first started 12-step. I know 12-step isn't for everyone, but I did go through that because she was going through that, and I wanted to understand what it was about. Of course, I went and thought I was going to learn how to help her. That's not what happens in an Al-Anon meeting; you learn about yourself. I think I finally understood the importance of taking responsibility without blame and shame, and how I wasn't at fault for what was going on, but I also was part of the family and could contribute to the healing. There was a lot of self-discovery that was necessary on my part to see where I fit in all this—in my relationship with my mother, my relationship with her. Why was I so focused on fixing what was wrong with her? The more I got into that, the more I realized that we're all on the spectrum of addiction. Everyone wants things to work out the way they want them to. We all want our kids to be happy. We all want to be successful. We want to have health and fitness. We want things to work the way we want them to in the world. When that doesn't happen, then we suffer because it's upsetting, and we look for ways to soothe ourselves—sometimes not in a healthy way. That's where I think we get wrapped in our own addiction, our own attachment.
Lisa [7:33]
Yeah, that's a great answer. I think so many people come to recovery, whether it is 12-step or other kinds. You do not have a substance use disorder, but you are trying to support someone who does, and you think, "I'm going to do this for them," not realizing that addiction is a family problem. It's part of the family system. You do have to look at yourself. One of the things you said about addiction, and this is something that I learned in 12-step recovery, was the role of control. When we are afraid, the default is to control because we think if we control everything, then life will be okay. It'll turn out the way we want. Yet that often makes things worse. But also from a brain perspective, that hits the reward center, like, "oh, I can fix this. I can fix this." I think that's one of the ways that people who maybe struggle with—I'm going to use a word, and it may not be a perfect word—codependence, people-pleasing, that is something that happens. I also like what Gabor Maté says. He is a psychologist who deals a lot with addiction. He talks about how substance use is a way to alleviate pain. I think for people who maybe do not have substance use issues but are affected by them or are affected by the family myths, that's one of the things I really noticed in your book. Yes, we have this Greek myth, which plays a pretty prominent role, and you do it beautifully and elegantly. But there's also the family myths that we live with that get passed down in these very subtle and unconscious ways that impact us and create pain. So, we find these really genius ways of getting out of pain, and control is one of them.
Ann [9:34]
Exactly. I think the other thing is our society tends to set women up to be perfectionists, especially mothers. You have to be a good mother. The flip side of being a good mother is being a bad mother, right? There's nothing in between. When my daughter was in so much pain, I just assumed because of my upbringing, my conditioning, and my society, that it must be my fault. Therefore, I must not be a good mother. My investment in her recovery was partly because it was excruciating to see a child in pain, but also, I wanted to redeem myself for not catching this earlier or not knowing what to do. A lot of that unraveling started happening. The more I wrote the book, the more I started digging deeper and deeper into, "oh, that's how I'm feeling about this. Well, where did that come from? When was the first time I felt that?" I just started going back and forth in the book, trying to figure out how I came to those assumptions, how I came to that pain, and how I was trying to resolve that pain by fixing whatever was going on with her.
Lisa [10:44]
I love that mystery component. Is the daughter going to find recovery? Is she going to have sobriety? But the deeper story, and I think the one that makes it really rich, is why does this narrator do the things that she does? Why does she feel driven in these very powerful ways to help her daughter in a way that we find out is not necessarily helping her? That's part of the journey: how do we figure out how to do this in a way that does actually work?
Ann [11:15]
That's what I was thinking. What I was going to say is that I've said this before: I realized at one point that I was a junkie for regret. Because if I could be at fault for what was going on with her, if I was powerful enough to do that, then I was powerful enough to fix it. So, it still was this control thing of feeling like, you know, I must be able to be a good mom and fix this. So, I wasn't willing to let go and let her be powerful in her own right, let her do her recovery the way she needed to. I mean, in the beginning, of course, when a loved one is in active addiction, you do have to step in. There are times when you have to take an advocacy role and be much more involved. But once they start recovering, once they start finding their own path, that's when it's important to step back.
Lisa [12:13]
Absolutely. And I love that phrase, a junkie for regret. Such a powerful phrase. You have done a lot of work on yourself. Before we talk about that, I want to talk about one of the things that makes this powerful storytelling, which I think will also get us into this conversation around recovery. You are caught off guard as the mother of this daughter who had this addiction and didn't see it coming. You take us to the same place. We are caught off guard. Daughter comes home from school. We're like, oh, teenage problems, yeah, boom, I'm not going to give it away. But we're in the middle of something. And then we find out that it's worse. You do that well. So, for people who are writers who are listening to this podcast, you're like, how do I catch the reader off guard? Read this book because you do this in a really nice way. You take us into this moment, the storytelling is beautiful. You set us up for something that's going to be benign, but it's not. And I think that's your editorial prowess because you have also worked as an editor.
Ann [13:27]
I think it's interesting because I think there are several layers to the revision or the editing part of that. But first of all, when I stopped just writing in a journal and thought about writing a book, I realized I was no longer the audience. I had readers as the audience, so I wanted to take them along the same journey that I was on or that I had been on. You don't want to just give it away in the beginning. You want to show the same emotion, show the same process that was happening at the time and not get ahead of yourself. If there's too much reflection in the beginning, it's going to ruin the action and the momentum of the story, I think. Then the reader doesn't get to also come to their own conclusions or realizations or questions. So, I think the first layer is getting to the truth of what it is you're trying to say. The second layer of revision or editing for me was how clearly am I writing this? I mean, is it understandable? And then finally, how engaging is it? What can help the reader feel more engaged, I guess. So, I sort of went through those three different layers of revision and editing to help me.
Lisa [14:51]
That is so quotable. Seriously, it is. I love the three layers that you've shared. It's so well put because that is really the way we need to think about the process. First, your truth so that it feels emotionally right to you. Is it clear? And then how can you engage the reader? Part of engaging the reader is making the reader do the work of feeling for the characters, figuring out what the problem is, trying to solve the mystery alongside the narrator. If you as the writer spoon-feed us everything, we need in terms of how people are feeling or what's going to happen next, we're passive vessels. Might as well be watching TV.
Ann [15:35]
I mean, you must trust the reader. Trust that the reader is smart, the reader is curious, the reader has their own questions. To make it relatable to someone else, I think it's important to understand what you're trying to say in the first place. What am I trying to say? Why would anybody want to read this? What are we going to learn from this? What did I learn from it? How did I learn from it? When did I learn from it? What was going on that made it that pivotal moment where I went from being a victim to being in my own power? That, to me, was the critical point of the story when things started changing. So, how did I get to that point? That actually happened maybe two-thirds of the way through the book. So, I was still bumbling along in the beginning of the book, taking the reader for that ride, and then coming to a point of realization where things changed for me.
Lisa [16:36]
Yes, and I was glad that you took me on that ride, and that you let me bumble alongside you and go, oh my gosh, what's going to happen to this family? There are two lenses that you apply to the story. This is your personal story, but there is the lens of recovery and the lens of the Greek myth. I am curious what you learned about recovery and how that influenced your writing process. As we talk about this, I'm going to read something from page 112 of the book: "Learning about Buddhism from the perspective of addiction and the 12 steps from the perspective of Buddhist philosophy brought new clarity. I began to see how all humans are on the spectrum of addiction. And as is often said at retreats such as this one, we are all just walking each other home," which is such a beautiful line. My curiosity is about what you learned about how Buddhism is related or influences or connects with the recovery process and vice versa, and how all of this affected your writing process. Since we talked about this before the recording started, you are not an expert in Buddhism or the 12 steps. Neither am I. So, we're going to speak in I statements, but I'm curious, how did all of that come together for you?
Ann [17:58]
Well, I had been studying mindfulness for years and years—since like 2004. So, I was familiar with Buddhist literature. It wasn't something that was new to me. I wasn't as familiar with the 12 steps. But what I learned from the 12 steps is the importance of being honest, taking responsibility for your actions, showing up. There are just a lot of things that were attractive to me about it. But it wasn't until I read a book by Kevin Griffin called One Breath at a Time: Buddhism and the Twelve Steps that I started seeing the understanding about how in Buddhist philosophy, we all have attachments. They don't call it addiction, but we all are attached to wanting certain outcomes. When we don't get those outcomes, we suffer. The higher the stakes are, the more you crave your outcome. If you're sick, you really want to be well. If you're having a wedding and it's a rainy day, you're upset. I mean, things that are maybe out of our control. But I think the point really is that we all want things to work out the way we hoped they would. When they don't work out, that causes suffering. It's a similar thing. When I realized that if we all have this attachment, then there's no us and them. There's no, all these people over here are addicted and I don't have a substance abuse problem, so I'm over here. We're all in the same situation in a way, and I think that really helped me.
It took it out of that category and made it much more applicable to anyone, all of us. I don't know if that explains it, but that's kind of where I saw the parallels that were helpful to me. The mindfulness and going back to staying in the present moment. In the 12 steps, there's an expression about not future tripping or going down a rabbit hole or having anxiety about something you can't control. The future, nor do you want to worry about whatever you did wrong in the past. It's about staying in the present and doing one step at a time, one day at a time so that you can just face each moment. Well, Buddhism is the same thing. It's all about staying in the present moment. The more we can address our thoughts and our behavior to respond to what's in front of us, as opposed to reacting based on our past or future, then I think we get to a better place of being genuine with ourselves and with other people.
Lisa [21:15]
And what I hear in this is suffering is a universal experience. When we think about addiction from the disease model, which some people feel is really important to them, to see it as a disease, and so, we're not going to get into whether this is the right way to look at it or not. When you use the disease model for talking about addiction, and you talk about someone having an illness, they are separate from you, right? They are different. But when you look at it from the perspective of attachment, and I have attachments, and my attachments cause me suffering, these attachments cause you suffering, and maybe they're different attachments, but the suffering is the same. There is a way that you can experience equanimity, this feeling of sameness amongst all of us. Right. That is a powerful way of developing compassion.
Ann [22:17]
I was just going to say that the missing leg is compassion. When we set it up as an us versus them situation, I didn't want my daughter to think that she was the only sick person in the family, I didn't want to assume that there weren't things that I needed to work on as well. So, I think that having compassion for yourself, and then having compassion for other people is really the gateway to healing. And that's, that's what happens when, when you read a memoir, you feel seen, you feel somebody understands very well, that's compassion. That's making that connection.
Lisa [23:00]
That is the gift that memoirists give, because we are putting language to other people's experiences, and we are allowing them to be seen. And so that is one of the gifts of your book. So, we've talked about the lens of addiction, and how that influenced the storytelling and how that allowed you to have compassion for yourself. But I also want to talk about this Greek myth, because the Greek myth is on the cover. So, let’s get into it. When did you know this was part of the framework of your story? And how did including it impact the way you told the story or the way you saw it?
Ann [23:39]
Well, first, as I said before, when I read this myth, it was the first time that I really felt seen, because here was this ancient mother whose daughter had been captured and taken to hell. And she goes nuts, she goes crazy. She drops all her responsibility. All she can think about is rescuing her kid, and I went, oh, that's me. I get it. But also, she has to learn things. Once I started actually reading the myth more carefully, I realized, it wasn't enough to just say, oh, I'm fine to be obsessed about my kid, because this ancient Greek mother was too. No, she had to learn things. And she had to develop, and she had to transition from having raised a child to allowing her grown-up daughter to be independent. So, there were many, many things that I could relate to while I was reading this, but it really wasn't until I started trying to put the book together. I mean, I knew about the myth and all those things, but at that point I thought, I really want to include this in my book, and I thought, well, maybe I'll just—not everyone knows about this myth. Maybe I should write an introductory chapter and explain it. So, when I started trying to do that, I thought, well, you know, I don't want to just write Homer's myth. I want to write my version of what I imagined. So, once I started trying to imagine the myth from my perspective, from a 21st-century perspective, I started thinking about more short chapters. And then I started thinking, well, if I can sprinkle this through the book, then I started thinking, well, every chapter about myself needs to relate to her story as well. So the structure of using the reimagined myth throughout my book forced me to be much more judicious about what I was going to put in about myself, because I wanted each thing I wrote about myself to relate to the arc of the Greek myth, which did, I mean, I realized the reason I used it was because there were so many parallels that I found to my life with her and with what I was experiencing, that I was able to weave those two together. But the structure gave me a direction, and also a criterion. For each of my chapters, they had to relate in some way to whatever was going on with that section of the myth. It just kept it much tighter. And it’s a short book.
Lisa [26:17]
I was surprised by that. It’s only 166 pages. That's very short. Yeah. And you do that well. I personally loved how you meted out the story so that we were getting this little bit, then we learn about your life, because if I had had to hold the entire story in my head, I wouldn't have had the same connections that you had. So, I think breaking it up was a great strategy. When you were thinking about this, and you rewrote this myth, did you just write the entire myth and then figure out like, okay, this is, I'm going to break this up into these chunks, and then see how it goes together? Or did you write it in chunks and say, how does this relate to my, my story? How did that work for you?
Ann [27:08]
I don't think I wrote it all at once. I think what I did was I really sat down and went line by line through Homer's myth, and tried to imagine what was really going on. And then I would sit on it for a while, and then think about it for a while. And then I'd come back to it. So, I didn't write the whole thing out at the same time. But I took each little section and I really thought about why. So, what happened here, and what was going on with Demeter. And well, wait a minute, what was going on with me? So, I think I took it in sections, slowly. And sometimes I went back to a Demeter chapter and embellished it more or took it in a different direction, because I learned something later in my book that I wanted to go back and address. So, it didn't just, I mean, none of this goes in a linear fashion. Recovery is not linear. None of this is linear. So, I think there was a lot of, I guess, stumbling around before I really kind of hit on what I wanted.
Lisa [28:20]
That's a great answer. And what I hear is slow, deliberate, meandering. And that requires a lot of patience. Right? And that you didn't have to do it all at once. So, writers, I want you to hear again, she said, it took 10 years to do this. So, if you're in the middle of writing your memoir, and you're like, OMG, this is taking way too long. Give yourself a little grace.
Ann [28:46]
There were times it was painful to write some of this. And there are times when I had to step away from it for months, I had to walk away from it. And I didn't want to really go back to it, or I had to think about it some more. It was not like I just sat down and cranked it out, because there was some deadline. It was much more of a process of recovery, in writing, as I was learning. I mean, there were moments when I started writing that I realized, oh my gosh, I didn't know that was happening with me until I wrote it, until I tried to get through that chapter. So, there's a lot of self-discovery in the process of writing, which has to do with what you were asking before about resilience and recovery. To me, recovery is about being able to handle a crisis or, you know, rise to an occasion in the middle of a crisis. But resilience to me is the practice of recovery over a period. And so, I think it's the practice, the writing practice, the mindfulness practice, all those things, I think it’s a process that takes time.
Lisa [30:00]
And as we practice them, we build the tools that allow us to be able to bounce back.
Ann [30:06]
Right. And the next time stronger, and the next time stronger, but it's not a one-time thing. It just has to keep building over time.
Lisa [30:21]
And there's an alchemy that happens in the writing process. Until you do it, you don't realize that when you write it, you're in it. You are making these discoveries about yourself. So many people I've worked with will say, "oh, I can write a memoir. I've been in therapy for years." I was also one of those people who was like, "I can tell you my whole life story and give you all the insights." You go to write it, and it is totally different. It is not the same experience. And so, yeah, allowing for all these practices to marinate, for the story to marinate, so that you can really discover what it means, is so important. And that's what I love about how you handle this journey with figuring out how to structure your book. And I have one more structure question, and then I'm going to ask you something about backstory, which is also every writer's Achilles heel. Going on with the Greek mythology motif, I recently interviewed Jennifer Lunden, who wrote American Breakdown, which is about her chronic illness. She has this chapter where she talks about the difference between the hero's journey and the heroine's journey. Here's a very quick and easy way to think about it: the hero's journey is "let's go off and slay the dragon." It's about going off and catching something out there. The heroine's journey is more about the inward journey. "Let me embrace and discover something within the darkness." As you were writing this, did you think of this as the heroine's journey? Or did you have a framework in mind as you were conceptualizing the book?
Ann [31:59]
Yes, I did see that Demeter story of an internal struggle, a heroine's journey, as that kind of process for her. And then, of course, when I followed that arc, which was, you know, you come up against obstacles, you go backwards, you go forward, you're trying to understand something about yourself. So, of course, I was going through something similar. But yeah, I think both my story and the Demeter story were probably heroine's journeys as well. I did see that. I was conscious of the fact that it was much more internal rather than external, which was more my interest anyway. So, I think many, many memoirs written by women are about that similar kind of journey.
Lisa [32:46]
And I think it's important just to consider that there are different ways. I'm going to share a link in the show notes to what the heroine's journey is because people might not know. I'll also share one for the hero's journey in case people are like, "What is that? I don't know." I'll share both so that people have it. And so, thinking about how to navigate this journey is important. And our backstory provides context for why we do what we do. I work with a lot of writers who will sometimes give me pushback when I say, "Don't put it in the beginning, or at least don't put too much of it in the beginning." Yes, maybe something does belong, but a very common thing that happens in early drafts is, "Let me give you my life story up to this point when the story will begin." And your opening is 150 pages long, and your book is like 400 pages, because you have too much in the beginning. You show some major restraint, let me just say, because to me, one of the big backstory things that you share on page 128 where you get into this miscarriage and some of the other things that influenced the story you were telling yourself, which of course influenced, you know, how you interacted with your daughter and the things that happened in the book. How did you show that restraint? And how did you make the decision to put this key bit of backstory so far into your narrative, which I agree with? I think it was the right placement.
Ann [34:25]
Well, first, as far as backstory, I mean, most editors of magazines, whatever, will often skip to like the third chapter, or the third paragraph that somebody sends in because that's when it gets started. So, it's important, I think, to know where to start and often to start with a scene or with action or with something that's going to grab the reader because we don't live in the 19th century anymore. We have short attention spans; readers have short attention spans. So, you know, the whole idea of giving a backstory in the beginning of a novel doesn't quite work now the way it used to. But I do think that not only is it important to know when to put it in, but it's important that the backstory is relevant. And that's important. If you want to kill your darlings, you may have a great backstory that doesn't really fit in your book and it's going to waste. It’s taking a detour which makes it harder for the reader to keep the momentum of the action and the story going. The backstory you're talking about later in the book was an aha moment for me as I was writing the book. It wasn't until I got toward the end of my manuscript that I thought, "Oh, that's why I was so obsessed with needing to rescue her, needing to make sure she was okay." I mean, it wasn't just that it's a normal problem if you have someone you love who is in addiction, but I was so obsessed about it. And I didn't understand that even though I've been through therapy, I've been through all these things before, I hadn't really dealt with the grief about that miscarriage. So, when I realized that, I didn't understand that until I was almost done with the manuscript and working on the tail end of it. That aha moment was something I wanted to give the reader. I wanted them to have the same kind of aha moment that I had later. And so that's why I kept it at the end.
Lisa [36:35]
Yeah, so I think there are a couple of things I want to highlight that you've said. One, in your writing process, the aha happened later in the writing process. So, for a lot of you, that's going to be a clue. Like, you know, where in your writing process you have an aha is going to clue you in on how far into your narrative this piece of backstory might belong. So that's one thing to think about. And you don't want to lose forward momentum. Every time you put in backstory, you stop the forward momentum of your book. And you knew that you had this aha, and to enrich the aha and to make it make sense, this piece of backstory moved us along further because it helped us understand what the aha was, why it was necessary. And then it allowed you to get to the next thing that you needed to confront in the book.
Ann [37:28]
Right. Because I put it later, I didn't have to do a lot of explaining. Yes, that was the other advantage of putting it later. It was not only a surprise to me and therefore to the reader, but I didn't have to over-explain why it was important or what it meant. It's obvious when it happens, how it fits in, because I've already told most of the story up to that point.
Lisa [37:56]
You do not have to develop the characters again, because we know who they are. And, sometimes when you juxtapose things, especially if a lot of the main pieces have already been developed, just juxtaposing these two things together allows the reader to do the work and connect the dots in a way that does not require as much reflection. So, this is a way that you can allow the reader to do work. So how are you going to figure out how Ann did this? You're going to read her book, and you're going to go to these pages that I have mentioned, so that you can see exactly how she did that.
Ann [38:35]
Well, actually, I didn't do a lot of reflective writing until the last third of the book. I mean, even though I put in backstory early on, it was more of a statement, as opposed to reflection. Yes. And I think that if you're writing backstory, if you just offer the information, as opposed to all your thinking about it, then the reader can make those connections. So again, it helps you not stay bogged down with the backstory if you're just giving facts. And then later in the book, you can do some reflective thinking, but let the reader do the reflection.
Lisa [39:23]
Yes, I love that. Now there are so many quotable moments here. I always ask three lightning-round questions. I'm going to ask them to you because we could be here all day. We could talk about so many other things with your book, but everybody has limited time and I know you have other places to be, and so do I. Even though I would love to be here forever, right? But what is the best piece of writing advice you've received?
Ann [39:47]
I think there were two pieces. One was asking myself again and again, "What am I trying to say? What do I want to say?" And thinking I've written that, and then going back again and asking, "What really do I want to say?" Yeah, what's the point here? And I think that was very helpful to just keep that front and center. And then the other part is using your story to connect with your reader versus just telling a tale or a series of events. It's like, how can I connect with the reader? What are the universal themes? What are the pain points that the reader might be coming to pick up this book and say, "Oh, I want to hear about that." Yeah. So, making those connections and almost, again, asking, "What do I want to say, and how am I going to connect with the reader?" are the two things that I think really helped me.
Lisa [40:48]:
Beautifully said, and your book is really about how you nurture your resilience. I mean, we see it all the way through. But if you could give people just one or two very quick ways that you nurture your resilience now, after the compiling all the wisdom of this experience, and what you know, what are you doing?
Ann [41:09]:
First of all, I never think of myself as finished, in terms of resilience or recovery, or any of those things, I see it as an ongoing journey of self-discovery. And so that's very exciting to me. But to nurture that, I would love to say that I meditate every day for 20 minutes. I don't. I would love to say I have a yoga practice. I don't. What I do every night is I get in our hot tub. And I look at the sky, and I have a quiet moment with myself. And I have a conversation with my soul. And I think about my connection to nature, or I think about, you know, what I'm grateful for or where I need to ask for help or any of those kinds of things. Connecting with the true nature of who I am, and reminding myself in that moment of really being grateful for the joys and the challenges of my life is a way for me to nurture that resilience, and that sense of self-discovery.
Lisa [42:18]:
I love that. I also love that you were so honest, by saying, here’s what I would love to tell you, which is based on what everybody says I'm supposed to do. Now, here's what I actually do.
Ann [42:30]:
Yeah, I don't write every morning, either. For that matter, I'm a binge writer, I write when I feel like it, or I write when I'm upset, or I write when I'm inspired. If I see a beautiful piece of art, or here's some beautiful music, sometimes that will inspire me to write, but it kind of just comes when it comes.
Lisa [42:51]:
Thank you for busting the myth of the writer who writes every single day because most of us don't. I mean, yes, you need to develop a writing practice, especially if you're a new writer. It's like exercising or anything else. Habit is important. Muscle memory is important. And once you have that, going with your flow is also important, and recognizing you do not have to do it perfectly and every day is perfect.
Ann [43:16]:
And you can ask for help. That's a thing. The other thing I learned from 12-step and from recovery is the importance of community and the importance of asking for help, the importance of staying honest with yourself. I mean, not just 12-step, but also the Buddhist philosophy. It's all about not feeling like you're alone. The beauty of memoir is that it's a way for women, especially, who write to share their wisdom so that readers can discover their own wisdom. And that's a lovely gift that we give each other.
Lisa [43:55]:
We heal, and we write in community. That is how we get it done. Right? Well, you have this beautiful book, Craving Spring. I’m going to hold it up again. For those who are watching this, or listening, what are the best ways for people to learn more about you buy your book and connect with you online.
Ann [44:13]:
I have a website, it's www.annbatchelder.com. That's got everything in there in terms of finding my book and reading reviews and podcasts and everything. It's all in there. But if you want to buy the book, it's available in bookstores and on Amazon.
Lisa [44:34]:
If you miss that, all of this will be in the show notes. So, fear not, you can find it. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. It has been delightful to talk with you and I'm deeply grateful for this conversation and for the opportunity to read your book.
Ann [44:50]:
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
