Writing Your Resilience Podcast Transcript for Episode 27
Is My Book Ready for Beta Readers? with Melissa Macomber
Lisa [1:08]
Well, hello, Melissa, I am so glad to have you on the Writing Your Resilience podcast. Welcome.
Melissa [1:13]
Thank you. Thank you so much, Lisa. Happy to be here.
Lisa [1:16]
Well, you and I have worked together for I think almost a year, right? So, I was so excited when you pitched me because I was like, yes, we get to work together again. And so having you on the podcast is an absolute delight. You have an excellent question that you're going to share with everyone. But before we get to that question, what would you like people to know about you and your project?
Melissa [1:41]
Okay, well, I am in the middle of writing my first memoir. I've just finished draft four. And I am looking forward to learning more about beta readers, because I feel like I'm ready for that next step. But I'm still a little nervous about it, honestly.
Lisa [2:02]
First, a round of applause, because you've made it to draft four. And that is huge. Congratulations. Before we get into talking about beta readers, what has helped you have the stamina to get to the fourth draft? Because some people are probably like, OMG, there are four or more drafts? Yes, there are, my friends, if you are just starting out, but you can do it. Tell us how.
Melissa [2:28]
Okay, so with the first draft, I took a long time. It was probably four years. I started in 2016. I didn't finish draft one until 2020. And as frustrating as it was, I really needed that time not only to physically put pen to paper, so to speak, but also to emotionally work through what I was writing, and if I had the right to write it in the first place. So that really helped. And then community is the other bit. I had two writing partners throughout the first draft process. And then after I finished draft two, I looked to you, Lisa, and Camp Structure, and the other people in that class to really, truly be the wind in my sails that I needed.
Lisa [3:44]
I love that answer. And yes, community is a huge part of it. And I always tell people, in fact, I was talking with a client last night about first drafts, and this person was in the middle of his first draft, and he had been working for six months, and was a little apologetic about how long it had taken to get to where he was. It takes one to two years sometimes for people to get through that first draft for all the reasons you shared. It takes a while. It's not something that just happens easily for most people. And so, community is a huge part of that. Beta readers are a part of that community. And I love how honest you were. It's scary. It's so vulnerable to share your work. It is a very vulnerable act. So, you want to make sure that you're at the right place, and that you're choosing the right people. So, I don't know if there's anything more you want to add to that question. No, it was a great answer. But if you have anything else about how to know if I'm ready for beta readers, what would you add?
Melissa [4:53]
Yes, that's exactly what I would add is that I believe that my book is ready for beta readers. But also, part of my desire to have beta readers is to see how I feel when I get that kind of feedback. And if I'm ready for it, because moving forward, there's only going to be more feedback and more opinions. And I want to make sure that I'm okay with that.
Lisa [5:21]
Yeah, so beta readers can be a great way to test the waters around what it's like to share your work with the world. And that is so important, because once you publish your manuscript, it belongs to everyone else. And of course, everyone's going to have an opinion on it. That's just how life works. So, testing the waters, seeing what it feels like getting the right feedback is helpful.
So, I'm going to dive right in and talk about the three kinds of beta readers every writer needs, and you will definitely need the first two. Some people will need the third. And then I'm going to talk about that readiness issue. So how can you do some readiness tests to see if your work is ready? So, there are really three types of beta readers. And before I get into them, I'm going to say a few words, listen to the word, reader. Okay? That's important because a beta reader is not an editor. So, you can't expect the same level of editorial feedback that you will from, say, someone like me who works as a professional editor. But that's okay. So, you want to make sure that your expectations are correct. And know that these people are going to help you. They are an integral part of the process. Everyone has beta readers, I have beta readers, every writer I know has beta readers. And the goal is to choose wisely.
So, one of the first types of beta readers, which is probably the type of beta reader you want right now, is a writer who serves as a beta reader. Okay, so writers are usually people in your writing community. It can be helpful if they don't necessarily know your whole story, or they haven't read your whole manuscript. That's important because you want people with fresh eyes. But these are people who understand the language of writing. So, they can give you the kinds of feedback that will help you take your manuscript to the next level, because I often tell people, you want to have at least some beta readers before you work with a professional editor. That's the most cost-effective way to do this work. And it also ensures that you have taken your manuscript as far as you possibly can before you either work with someone like me, or you start querying. So, it's important to get these beta readers that are writers. So, when you're thinking about these people, you know, if it's the first time that you've ever done it, you're feeling vulnerable, choose people you already know, it's perfectly fine to do that. And when you are, you know, setting these up, you want to think about the three to five questions you want them to answer, right, they're not going to be able to give you a ton of super detailed feedback, nor should they, right? They're, they're doing editing light. They're giving you big-picture feedback to help you take something to the next level. So here are some of the types of questions you might want to ask, you know, do you understand what my narrative arc is? Is that arc of transformation clear to you? How about my characters? Do they feel developed in a fair and balanced way? What about the pacing? Are there times when you get bored, or it feels like I'm rushing? Is there anywhere that you feel confused? So, what are those points of confusion? But also ask what am I doing really well? So, I was talking with Andrea Firth a couple of weeks ago about this. And pointing out the highlights is also important. So, you don't just want to get a bunch of critical, constructive feedback. You also want people to point out what they really love so that you can do more of that in a future draft. So, these are the kinds of questions you want to ask the writer type of beta reader, and you know, again, choosing people that you know, talking with them about what this experience is, like setting deadlines, that's also very important. Could you read this within X number of weeks, or X number of months? Usually, a fair amount of time is six to eight weeks. Sometimes we will say three months. And that gives you a chance to be away from the manuscript long enough to also have fresh eyes. So even though for a lot of writers, it's like oh my god, you mean I have to wait for that long? Yes, that will help you be able to do this well. So, get some time.
Also think about how you're going to compensate that person. Taking on your manuscript is a labor of love. People are putting in a good amount of their own time and their own expertise. So, one of the easiest and most cost-effective ways, and I'll say the most effective ways to do this is to be a beta reader yourself. So, choose someone who is at the same place you are, and serve as their beta reader. You are going to learn so much about your own manuscript by serving as someone else's beta reader. Sometimes you're going to see things like, OMG, they do this so well, I want to do this too. Other times you’ll think, oh, yeah, now I see why that doesn't work. Right. And that's okay. We all have those things in our manuscripts, no judging anyone. But that is one of the ways that we learn as a writer. So, in terms of the number that you need, I always say three. And here's the reason why. If you have one person, you're just getting one opinion. If you have two, you can run into the worst possible feedback situation possible where one person loves something, and the other person hates it. Three gives you consensus. More than that, especially early on, and it can feel like you have too many cooks in the kitchen, and you've got all kinds of opinions going all over the place. So that's why I say three. So, before I get into the other two types of beta readers, what is this making you think about?
Melissa [11:24]
It's making me think about the difference between giving someone the entire manuscript versus a part of it. Is there any value to just doing a few chapters first or do you typically recommend the entire manuscript at one time?
Lisa [11:39]
Thank you for asking that question because that is so important for people to think about. If you know someone well, and you have worked with them before, I think it's perfectly fine to give them your entire manuscript. But it's also okay to start with a section. If you don't know someone, maybe consider the first 25 pages to really make sure that the type of feedback they give you aligns with what you're looking for and what you need. So, it's okay to say, you know, I want to start with 10 pages, or 25 pages, let's see how it goes. We might not feel like we're each other's readers, and that's okay. So, yeah, start with a small amount, see how it goes, be willing to say no if it doesn't work. There are plenty of people that I love that I do not want to be my beta readers. And speaking of people we love; your beta readers should never be your friends or people in your family. But because you're probably going to have friends in your writing community, you might be thinking, but what about this person who I love, and I cherish all their feedback? Can't I ask them? Yes, but not your partner, not your family, not your friends out in the world because they love you. And often, they're going to tell you what you want to hear.
Melissa [13:07]
Yes, I've had that experience. Unfortunately, I've made that mistake already. So, I won't do that again.
Lisa [13:13]
Yes, so many writers do. And I think the hardest part is when you give it to someone who really loves you, and they're giving you all this glowing praise. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm a bestseller. I can't believe it on the first draft. Are you kidding me? And then you get into a writing group, or you take a class, and you get the smackdown of this is not clear, or you are not writing in scene, my friend. What is all of this? Cut it out? And it can be such a wake-up call.
Melissa [13:47]
Yeah, absolutely. You just described my experience very well.
Lisa [13:52]
Yes, happens to all of us. Alright, so we've talked about writers as beta readers. And for most of us, that's the first level. Then there is another level, and those are actual readers. These are people who would read your manuscript. And so, the first group, you're looking for people who are going to put on the red lights, or the yellow lights. They're going to tell you where it's not done yet, or oh, this might need to go or it's not working. You know, again, they're not editors. They're not going to give you that detailed of feedback, but you're looking for red lights. When you get to the reader phase, you believe your manuscript is done. You have done all your due diligence, gone through all the editorial drafts, you have worked with multiple rounds of writer types of beta readers, you have maybe worked with an editor. You know this manuscript is done. Now you're looking for a green light. When you're looking for a green light, you're going to ask a different set of questions. Right? When you ask these problem-focused questions that I suggested for the writer types of beta readers, you're looking for problems. You do not need a whole bunch of readers to give you a bunch of problems that take you through your 10 more drafts and 10 more years of your book. You need to know if they will buy it or not? This is how you present it. Here is my finished book. I'm just testing to see how people respond. Here's the feedback I need from you. Would you buy it or not? Yes or no and why? That's it. You're looking for a green light, you're not looking for problems. So, asking the reader level of beta reader these questions is helpful. At that point, you can have 10 to 15. And the closer you get to publication; I think the more beta readers you want. And these beta readers are really the people who are your audience. So that's why it's so important to know who your audience is and what your audience is interested in so that you make sure you're handing this to someone who has the highest potential of loving your book. For example, if you know someone who says, yeah, I'll be your beta reader and my favorite type of writing is fantasy fiction, go ahead and give me your memoir. That’s a terrible beta reader.
Melissa [16:23]
Right. Right.
Lisa [16:28]
Yeah, so be thinking about what that is. And you look like there's a question behind that.
Melissa [16:36]
Well, well spotted. So, it sounds like you're saying that you might do a couple of rounds of the first set of beta readers before you get to the second set. Is that correct?
Lisa [16:47]
Yeah. And a lot of it's going to depend on the kinds of feedback you get. If you get a lot of problem-saturated feedback from your first round of beta readers, and you do a whole bunch of edits, you want to make sure that you do another round to see if you've truly addressed those issues.
Melissa [17:04]
Okay. Okay. But you might just thinking, for me, that might mean reaching outside of my current writing community and finding people I don't know. I know people who volunteer to be beta readers online and that kind of thing. I don't know if that's part of your experience, or anything you comment on. But that's just something I'm thinking for the future.
Lisa [17:26]
Yeah. Where do you find these people? I think Facebook groups, Reddit groups. So, there are different online groups that you might be a part of, especially if they're writing-related groups. Also, Bianca Marais, who is one of the hosts of the Shit No One Tells You About Writing podcast, does a beta reader match-up. The people who sign up are serious writers in your genre. And if they are listeners of the podcast, you know they are working on their stuff. So, you might find someone who's a good match by signing up. And this is something that she does regularly. I think the next match-up is happening in June. So, we're recording at the beginning of May. So, you could consider signing up for that and just see, is this a good fit? And I believe what you submit is 3000 words. So, it's a small portion. So, you are introducing yourself to these people. And it’s low stakes. If you don't like the feedback you get or you don't jibe with people you can just say, thank you so much for your feedback. Moving on.
Melissa [18:31]
Okay. That's helpful. That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Thanks.
Lisa [18:36]
Yeah, so there are different levels of those. So that's one and two, everybody needs those. Three are sensitivity readers. If you are writing about a marginalized group that you are not a part of, whether that's one of your characters in your book, or you're writing about them in some other kind of way, you need to have sensitivity readers who are people within that group, who are going to read your work and comment on the level of sensitivity you've given and whether or not anything will be seen as offensive. If you have a writer who serves as a beta reader or a reader, there are lots of free ways that you can compensate people. For instance, reading someone's manuscript, or with readers, I'm going to give you a free copy of the book once it's published. So, there's different ways that you can do that. However, when it comes to sensitivity readers, they should always be financially compensated for their work. I will put a link in the show notes to an article from Writer's Digest to help you learn more about sensitivity readers and how to find them. Write Diversity is the name of an organization that offers sensitivity readers. These are professionals who are used to doing this work. But I will say, if you know you need a sensitivity reader, you should also do your due diligence and think about how you are portraying people and doing it in the most sensitive way possible by learning as much as you can about that. Listening to the Shit No One Tells You About Writing podcast is a great way to do that. They talk a lot about sensitivity issues, and do not rely on the person reading your manuscript to do that emotional labor for you.
Melissa [20:33]
Understood, thank you.
Lisa [20:34]
Alright. So, I don't think that part is going to be as relevant to your manuscript just because of what I've already read, since I've had the privilege of reading some of your work. However, I wanted to make sure that I shared that because some people who are listening are going to need these kinds of readers. Alright, so that is the answer to how do you know if your manuscript is ready for beta readers? In about 30 seconds, what do you think now that I've shared this?
Melissa [21:07]
Super helpful, because it's very step-by-step. I feel like I've read a lot of information about beta readers that could put me on a lot of different paths. But this feels much more concrete and much more doable. Frankly, it feels like it's something I could actually accomplish, which makes me feel good.
Lisa [21:25]
Yay, that is always my hope. I want you to leave with your question answered and feel like there are actionable steps you can take. So once this is done, and I'll say, for anyone who's listening, or if you're watching this on YouTube, be sure to listen and then write down the steps that you want to take so that you have created an actionable list for yourself. I'm going to wrap up by sharing the three questions I ask all my guests, and this is more of a lightning-round kind of thing. So, what is the best piece of writing advice you have ever received?
Melissa [22:00]
Oh, it is taking care of your heart, which I got from you through Camp Structure, and the whole idea that it is as important to take care of your heart and your emotions in your writing process as it is your manuscript.
Lisa [22:15]
Yes. And I got that from an Instagram post. It was by Kiese Laymon, who is the author of Heavy, which is an excellent book. And yes, I share that because it is so important. And we tend to neglect it in thinking about how we can create this product as quickly as possible so we can get it out into the world. And memoir does not work that way. So, what's one way that you take care of your heart?
Melissa [22:43]
Hmm. My most recent favorite way is by making a mistake allowance regularly. It's an idea I got from Adam Grant's book called Hidden Potential. And it's the idea that to really grow, you need to be uncomfortable a lot. And being uncomfortable for me means making mistakes. So, if I have a mistake allowance, then I feel like I'm meeting my goal, and I'm working toward progress. Doing something that doesn't make me feel like progress because it feels like a mistake. It's been helpful.
Lisa [23:20]
I love that. And I'll make sure that the title of that book is in the show notes in case anyone else wants to look at it. So final question. You're an author, building an author platform, what is the best way for people to connect with you?
Melissa [23:39]
On my website. I have a website, melissamacomber.com. Plenty of ways to reach me there. I maintain a blog as well. So, I would love to hear from you.
Lisa [23:49]
Wonderful. And so, her website will also be in the show notes so that you can connect. Well, thank you so much, Melissa, for being on the podcast. It has been an absolute delight to reconnect, and I am excited to see what happens when you get these beta readers, and you are ready for the next level of manuscript review.
Melissa [24:10]
Me too, and thank you so much, Lisa. It was such a pleasure to be here.
