Ever grappled with that nagging feeling of not being good enough, even when you're knocking it out of the park? Unpack the intricacies of imposter syndrome with the wisdom of sales coach Amber Deigert. Amber joins us to turn the tide on self-doubt, teaching us to channel those feelings into a force for growth.
Thanks again to your our sponsor, GoPayhawk. Stop overpaying and start thriving with GoPayhawk's payment process solutions. Visit GoPayhawk.com today and use code TLS24 to learn more about receiving a $250 credit on your payment processing solutions.
Ever grappled with that nagging feeling of not being good enough, even when you're knocking it out of the park? Unpack the intricacies of imposter syndrome with the wisdom of sales coach Amber Deigert. Amber joins us to turn the tide on self-doubt, teaching us to channel those feelings into a force for growth.
Thanks again to your our sponsor, GoPayhawk. Stop overpaying and start thriving with GoPayhawk's payment process solutions. Visit GoPayhawk.com today and use code TLS24 to learn more about receiving a $250 credit on your payment processing solutions.
Hi and welcome to episode five of the Last Cell. We talk about Cell's journeys, cell's stories, and we learn through the experiences of others, and I'm Kevin Hill, I'm your co-host for this podcast, along here with Richie Daigle. How are you doing today, richie? Yeah, doing well yeah thanks for that good intro.
Speaker 2:I feel like I forgot saying our names in the last intro. I forgot like, yeah, it was very well done.
Speaker 1:I feel like I need to take from you there, kevin we start talking and then we get unfocused, and then microphones don't work and a plethora of things just go wrong, and we just record an intro and we forget the fundamentals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's a good segue into this episode.
Speaker 2:Even though we didn't plan it right, it worked. This is a little bit of a detour from the normal sales stories, but I think it's an important episode for people to listen to anyways. Our guest on this episode is Amber Diver. If you're familiar with Amber, she's a sales coach and she works with people who are going through the experience of imposter syndrome. That is her niche, if you will. That's her area of expertise helping people understand it. What is it? What does it mean? Not be scared of it, all of these sorts of things. She has a lot of cool coaching. She's got a lot of great programs where you can learn more about it.
Speaker 2:But this was a cool conversation just to kind of dive into that topic. This was a cool conversation just to kind of dive into that topic, going through kind of the lens of storytelling and and and you know how that dynamic can play out in the sales arena. Um, so, yeah, I thought that was a really fun conversation. Uh, really interesting, always fun talking with her. And yeah, what were your takeaways? Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:I enjoyed it a lot because I always think about imposter syndrome and I think one of the key takeaways is you know, certainly don't be scared of it, but embrace it, because that's how you grow. If you don't think, if you don't have imposter syndrome, then you're learning new things. If you're out there just in growth mode, you are going to feel imposter syndrome. It's normal and you should be comfortable with it, not even scared of it, embrace it.
Speaker 2:I agree, and I think awareness is what was my big this is kind of a word that I keep coming back to in a lot of different realms right now but being aware of when you're having the experience of imposter syndrome, Also be aware when you may be having the experience of Dunning-Kruger syndrome, which is the opposite. You know, sometimes I feel like a bit like a pendulum swinging between the two, but I think it's good to know where you're at, you know, and to always be curious in both scenarios and be gentle, you know, kind to yourself, not too hard. I mean, as salespeople we expect perfection and all these things, but just being aware of what's happening and what you're experiencing can be quite liberating in itself.
Speaker 1:It can. Things don't always work out. Everyone makes mistakes. But embracing those failures, embracing that learning from it and just really being comfortable in your own skin and that makes imposter syndrome. What did you say bearable? It's certainly not unbearable, but it kind of makes it fun too.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of you know I think she uses this in this episode as well but it's like embracing the sore muscles. Yes, you know, the day after you were lifting in the gym and trying out a whole bunch of new exercises, you know I you're going to be sore, I can't walk.
Speaker 2:I don't like this, I can't like. Everything hurts. I don't like like get me out of here. Like give me all the protein shakes. How quickly can I get through this period? But that is the sign that you are growing and getting stronger and working out new muscle groups, et cetera. So super cool conversation. I hope you all enjoy it. Be sure to like subscribe. Check out Amber and her work. Go check out GoPayHawk as well, our sponsors. Go give them some love for all your payment needs and, yeah, get into it, enjoy. I have to ask, amber, did you watch the, the?
Speaker 4:super bowl did you have? I did, guys. I lived in san francisco for 10 years and so I was cheering for the niners and, I gotta be honest, I was watching at the beginning and then I got so anxious I just I cannot like help but feel the emotions of other people and I was like I can't do this anymore. So then I just read a book until the commercials came on, and then watched all the commercials, of course the halftime show as well, and then it was a sad defeat.
Speaker 1:It was. I just did an episode with Todd Leitz and he's both a Bills fan. His family is from Buffalo, but he grew up in the Bay Area or Northern California, so he's a Bills and 49ers fan. And he was not feeling very good about it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was a bummer. It's so funny. I have a daughter, she's four, and usually when my husband's watching football she just cheers for whichever team has the color of outfit that she likes better. But this time they're in the same color. But she did like the gold pants best, so that was the Niners.
Speaker 2:Nice we have to break this up a little bit, Kevin. I feel like we have this theme of 49ers fans coming on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, taking over the world.
Speaker 1:I hear you spend a lot of time in Chattanooga. What's your favorite? Spot.
Speaker 4:Oh, I used to I used to work for a company. So I was living in San Francisco and they had an office in Walnut Creek, which is in the Bay Area, but then their headquarters was in Chattanooga and I, honestly, I was like I maybe have heard a song about Chattanooga, but I have no idea where that is. And so I would come to Chattanooga about once a month from San Francisco and I have to say the direct flights were not so good. So my jam was to fly into Nashville and then drive over to Chattanooga, because I kept getting stuck in the Chattanooga airport. Like I don't know there were so many delays or whatever. I was like I'd rather just have one flight and not have connections.
Speaker 4:But yeah, I was shocked, to be honest with you. I mean I didn't know what to expect. But when I got there I was like what is going on here? Like all the rock climbing, all the paddle boarding, the downtown is so cool. We went for a like a run as a team and like ran up like one of the hills and had like this big view of everything, like it is a rad little spot and the food was amazing, like all the little restaurants we went to downtown. I was really shocked I was, I have to say. I was really skeptical and I was blown away. Once I got to chattanooga I was like this is great, I love it here I think our next sponsor, kevin, should be the city of chattanooga.
Speaker 2:now just to see if they should. Yeah, so thinking of spaces and cool places, where is your absolute favorite vacation spot? You have one more vacation left ever. Yeah, where is Amber going?
Speaker 4:So whenever people like, if I'm doing a meditation or something, they're like go to your favorite place on the planet, it's always this little beach I think it's called Secret Beach. It's on Kauai. You have to like hike down. It's hard to get to and there's like a bunch of sea turtles swimming over there. There's like no, hardly anybody, because you have to hike down into it. There's trees in the back of it, but it's like right up against all these cliffs. The sand is super soft and that is the spot.
Speaker 2:I always like imagine myself in a hammock at that spot, listening to the waves. It's the best place ever. I love hawaii. And and follow-up question um favorite beverage, alcoholic or non-alcoholic, one beverage to have with you at this beach, what do?
Speaker 4:you have. Can it be slightly frozen? Can I choose a shave ice, hawaiian shave ice yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I have to tell you this. But fast forward in the future and you are on this beach and there's hawaiian shaved ice. Everywhere. There's a little table next to me.
Speaker 2:There's some there. There's actually some that are coming up in the waves like out of the ocean Shaved ice. There's people walking around with it randomly, but you notice that you're on this beach and you're older. Now You're done working and it occurs to you that you are completely retired and you'll never work again. What was the last thing you sold, or bonus again? What was the last thing you sold, or bonus? What?
Speaker 4:was the last project you worked on, one of the two. What was the last thing you did last? I mean, if I'm fully retired, the last thing I sold was my business and I think I'm fully retired in like 45 is the goal, not super old, but it's interesting because I always think about that and I'm like, okay, let's say that I was retired, what would I want to work on? And I'm like I don't want to do the exact same thing I'm doing every day right now. Like I kind of have a dream set up and it's so enjoyable and so interesting. Yeah, I think it's really interesting because you asked like what's the last project that I worked on? There's something that's so rewarding to me about being able to share my ideas and my thoughts on linkedin and with my newsletter. It's such an amazing.
Speaker 4:I recently got this book. It's the rick rubin book. It's called the creative act and he said something in here about how, um, I don't think it's just creatives, but he says like the creative act is not um, it's not like an abnormal thing, it's. He equates it to like it's like a hummingbird flying. It's like something that you have to do. And I don't know if this applies to everybody.
Speaker 4:But when I heard that, I was like yes, that's it. Like there's always going to be a part of me that needs to create and needs to share my ideas and like share my thoughts and, whether people want to listen or not, like it's so rewarding to be able to share those things and have people respond and be like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize I was not the only one who felt this way, or like it's so amazing to hear somebody else who has a similar story. Or I never thought of considered it in that direction. So I think the last, the project I'm always going to be working on, is some kind of creative like whether it's sharing my thoughts to myself and figuring out what's going on in that crazy brain, or it's sharing my thoughts with other people and helping them see a new side that maybe they hadn't seen before.
Speaker 1:Kind of always reminds me um the, the, the quote from Willie Nelson of whenever people told him he should retire and he says, all I do is play music with my friends and golf. Which one should I?
Speaker 1:give up, right? It's just that the creative part of you is just natural and you should never. You can't retire from it. You can't retire from the creativity and and the, the joy or whatever feeling that you get out of, out of helping people, the serving other people, creating things. So that's one of those things that is untethered from money really. You know, probably your most satisfying sell or coaching, engagement or project didn't have dollars attached to it whatsoever. It was for the fulfillment of that and the dollars came in later.
Speaker 1:And it maybe opened the door for that and the dollars came in later, but it may have opened the door for for for success.
Speaker 4:Mm. Hmm, I read something recently about satisfaction that kind of blew my mind. It's in the book Build a Better Life by Oprah and Arthur Brooks, and he talks about how there's like micro. It's a book about happiness and he talks about how there's like micro. It's a book about happiness and he talks about how there's like micro nutrients that are needed to create happiness. One is enjoyment, one is satisfaction, and I forgot the third one.
Speaker 4:It may be come to me, but what he said about satisfaction was satisfaction only happens when you work hard at something and then see the result come to fruition and creativity. Like it's not an enjoyable process necessarily. Like you do something arduous, like I think of like prospecting. The same way, like prospecting is not fun, but then when you see that you hit your number of like how many new deals you wanted, like that's fun, that's so satisfying. And I think of creativity kind of in a similar way, or like exactly what you were talking about. Like any one of these things of like signing a new deal or like getting a new client or whatever it is like it's the, it's the satisfaction of like I worked for this, it wasn't easy what I did, and now I get to like enjoy the reward of my efforts yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 2:I feel like that theme comes up with a lot of creatives, whether it's authors, uh, musicians that they are doing the thing because they feel compelled to do the thing, and they're going to do it no matter what.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter if someone's listening or reading, they just have to get it out of them. They have to go through the process of creating, and that process is every bit as important as the final product, something that would desire, you know. You think about all these people that are so driven to to achieve whatever it is that they're going after. And the most obvious, you know, example of this is think about the scientists that were developing, like nuclear energy, and they probably figured out at some point that, oh yeah, this is going to kill me, like I'm going to die because I'm, you know, going through. I figured out I'm a scientist, I figured out, like, how radioactivity works. Now I'm putting myself into that because I kind of see this greater cause, or this greater possibility. That desire can be destructive at times, but it can also be harnessed and it can produce a lot of cool things.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the last thing was purpose, by the way Enjoyment, satisfaction and purpose Having some kind of meaning behind why you're doing what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yes, and we see a lot of people with their sales business or literature, nuclear energy, but they have a. They want the purpose, they want the creativity, but something holds them back and it's something that I know you talk about a lot and that is imposter syndrome. Yeah, and I post out a lot of research on LinkedIn, share a lot of content, lot of research on LinkedIn, share a lot of content. I've been doing it for years now and every time I, before I hit that post button, I get this twinge of imposter syndrome myself. It just never goes away.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So let me tell you kind of my definition of imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome has three different flavors and you may have like one of these flavors, you may have all three, most people have all three, but imposter syndrome is number one. You feel like a fraud. You feel like you're making this up, you don't know what you're doing and people are going to find out, which is the scariest part. The second flavor of it is you feel like you just got lucky. You were in the right place at the right time. Like you just got lucky.
Speaker 4:The people who put you in this position were temporarily incompetent and didn't know what they were doing to give you this option, which, by the way, usually is combined with like I'm surrounded by people who are super smart and I don't belong here. I'm like, how can they be super smart and also incompetent enough to put you here? Like, let's just ask ourselves that. Like, how can they be super smart and also incompetent enough to put you here? Let's just ask ourselves that. And then the last flavor of it is downplaying your achievements, saying anybody could have done this, it wasn't that big of a deal. My favorite example of this is a PhD in rocket science. It was like, oh, it's not that big of a deal, anybody could have done what I did. Like no, actually they couldn't have. But you see these three things going on with all of us.
Speaker 4:And what imposter syndrome is not which I think sometimes it gets lumped in here is there are people who have and I would include myself in this group.
Speaker 4:Sometimes there are people who have this grinding, lingering feeling of not being good enough or not being qualified enough, or not ever, I don't know. It's kind of like this, this piece, this aspect that infiltrates multiple areas of your life, not just your professional life, but maybe your parenting, maybe your friendships, maybe you're like romantic partnerships, and that usually is not kind of, I think, of imposter syndrome more as like a what's it called? Like a temporary thing, not like a lifelong thing. So if you do start to feel those like just that, really like that weight that you're carrying around of, like I'm never going to be good enough, this is never going to be good enough, then like, I definitely recommend therapy and that's what helps me quite a bit. But imposter syndrome is more of like a temporary, it's not like a disease, it's like a broken leg, if that makes sense. I'm trying to think of what the word is, but like something that happens and can be resolved pretty quickly well, like a temporary bout of anxiety.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that will go away right, yes, so, and it's really interesting too, of why you have imposter syndrome. Um, it's interesting because when you are experiencing imposter syndrome, we all think like I'm the only one who feels this way. There's no way that my colleagues also feel this way, like why is it just me? And in fact, imposter syndrome, they estimate, affects probably 70% of the population, but I would guess it's like 100% of the population and imposter syndrome actually increases the higher up in rank you go in an organization. So the CEO is most likely to feel imposter syndrome, whereas, like, the new college grad is least likely to feel it, and there's also usually something that happens in here of feeling like the odd one out. You're more likely to feel imposter syndrome if you feel like you're different from all your colleagues. Maybe you have a different background.
Speaker 4:So many sellers come to me and they're like well, I didn't come from a traditional sales background and I still, like you can fight me on this, but I'm like there's no such thing as a traditional sales background, like that's not. There's no sales degree. Like what? What is the sales background Like? Please tell me. Like what is the sales background like? Please tell me. Like what is the traditional sales background, however, you got into sales. What's the right way to get into sales?
Speaker 1:it's the mythology that people who haven't had years of position in sales or as a salesperson makes up that this is the quintessential sales background. Yes, it doesn't exist, it's just myth, right?
Speaker 4:So? Like, well, I don't qualify, I'm a fraud because I don't have the right experience, or maybe I look different than everybody in my organization or I'm oriented different or have a different race or a different gender or different orientation Like something about me. My experience is different. So, to tell a personal story, I experienced massive, massive imposter syndrome, which is why I care so much about this. My story is that I grew up in poverty. I grew up in a blue-collar town. I was one of six kids. I was homeschooled. I didn't graduate high school and then fast forward.
Speaker 4:I was working and living in San Francisco downtown at a tech startup. It achieved unicorn status and I was managing a team and making six figures for the first time and I was like I can't let anybody know that I'm not supposed to be here, right, like? Can you guys feel that, like they're going to find out I'm not supposed to be here. They're going to find out that I'm poor, that I'm uneducated, like I have a college degree, but like they're going to find out I'm not supposed to be here? They're going to find out that I'm poor, that I'm uneducated, like I have a college degree, but like they're going to find out that I'm not supposed to be here. I'm surrounded by people who have Ivy League degrees and are super, super smart, and the imposter syndrome was so massive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, unlike the textbook example. Go ahead, richie, sorry.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like it comes in waves. Right, I feel like, like you said, people experience it at different times and you said that close to everybody experiences it and that it I feel like it comes in waves. Maybe, hopefully, you agree with this, but there's certain types, certain moments in a career or in a path where you're more likely to get hit by a wave of imposter syndrome, and you would probably know what some of those key moments are. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I will say before we jump into having you kind of walk through some of that, typically we ask in this podcast you know what was your first sale and your biggest sale and your most emotional sale? But I think we can pivot in this moment because this is tangential to those sales stories.
Speaker 2:but it's also very important to kind of tell stories around imposter syndrome and stories that you know of course don't give away anything sensitive, but stories that either you've experienced or in coaching or personally, that may resonate whether it's the biggest case of imposter syndrome you've experienced, or in coaching or personally, that may resonate whether it's the biggest case of imposter syndrome you've ever come across or maybe a specific scenario that was quite emotional, but I think that might be interesting to explore here. So, just so our listeners understand, we're going to pivot just a little bit the storytelling from the normal range of questions here to really focus on imposter syndrome today. But yeah, maybe you could jump into kind of some of those key moments in a career where you're most likely to see imposter syndrome come up. And then second question what was the kind of the biggest case of imposter syndrome that you've come across, either in personally or in your coaching?
Speaker 4:So imposter syndrome and here's like, if you hear nothing else from this episode, here's what I want you to hear Imposter syndrome only happens when you're in a growth phase. Imposter syndrome the opposite of imposter syndrome is complacency. I have talked to some people not clients, but like peers and friends, like I remember talking to like another mom that I'd met. Our kids were in the same class and I was talking to her about her imposter syndrome and her husband was like I never have imposter syndrome. I just don't. I never have it.
Speaker 4:And I was like how long have you been in your job? He's like seven years. And I was like when's the last time you got promoted? Seven years ago? He's like it's just the same all the time. When you're complacent and that no judgment, right, like some people like this is what they go for. When you're complacent in your career, you never feel imposter syndrome because you're not growing, you're not trying to learn new skills, you already know how to do everything. Imposter syndrome only happens when you've got your next promotion, your next big project, you started at a new company, you are up leveling your skills. It only can happen if you're a success.
Speaker 1:That makes perfect sense. Only in growth can you feel like an imposter because you're trying something new. And if you're not trying something new, then you're not getting anywhere Right. Not trying something new, then you're not getting anywhere right. So, and whenever you said the executives, you know I've been hearing I'm part of founders community now in logistics and everyone in there, from the people who are just starting out to the people who have been running startups for five, six, seven years, every day. It's a joke because we're all just making up as we go and that's part of feeling that imposter syndrome. Because you haven't been here before. I've never been a CEO of a $1 million company. I've never been one of a 1,100,000.
Speaker 1:So each day it's just you're growing and you're kind of feeling and it's kind of awkward but it's addicting too. That's how I like to live life.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. What I think about is the people who come to me and they say, like well, I've felt imposter syndrome my entire career. It's been this consistent thing. You can tell me nothing else about yourself and I know that your career trajectory has been hockey stick growth and they're like oh yeah, you're right, I did get promoted a lot, like you're just constantly putting yourself in new growth positions.
Speaker 4:But I want you to notice that the imposter syndrome is temporary. You may have had continual imposter syndrome, but it's temporary in that you might feel like an imposter the first time you do cold calling and then you do it for a few years and you no longer feel like an imposter. And then you feel like an imposter with the first time you do demos and you feel awful and then, like, pretty soon, you get good at it. You don't even have to practice anymore. You like know exactly what to say. So I want you to notice that the imposter syndrome is temporary in that it's inevitable that it's going to go away as soon as you learn that skill. All you have to do is keep going through the repetitions and pretty soon you won't feel like an imposter anymore. But where?
Speaker 2:we go wrong is a lot of us feel that imposter syndrome and we make it mean that we're not cut out for it and we stop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's something that you know. I'm fascinated to the degree that you're fascinated with imposters, imposter syndrome. I'm fascinated with underdogs and the underdog mindset and how an underdog functions. And there's a lot of commonality because when you're an underdog, your back's against the wall and you're looking at a quote, unquote, impossible feat. You're going to go up against some opponent that everybody you know, that everybody is is convinced is going to crush you or, like you're, you're heavily outmatched.
Speaker 2:But there's a freedom in that and that you can take all of the stress that comes along with high expectations for success and say I don't have that, I'm free from that, I can, I can compete and engage from a position of what if let's see what happens, let's give it a shot. What if let's see what happens, let's give it a shot. Um, and I think there's a lot of power in that and you get. You see, all these great underdog stories where people overperform, like the, the hockey team back in the 80s that that beat the russians, and like that's a great example. But there's all these different examples of incredible underdog stories throughout the years. But it was people or teams or individuals that um had this kind of level of imposter syndrome but used it as a superpower. They like leaned into it. You know, um. Yeah, I don't know if you have any comments on on underdogs and imposter syndrome or the overlap there, but curious um, my, whenever I hear underdogs, I always think of malcolm gladwell.
Speaker 4:He was on a podcast episode I listened to like decades ago maybe, and he talked about how he never roots for the underdog. He's like you have to be a masochist to root for the underdog because the likelihood is that they're not going to win. Why would you root for the underdog anyway? That's what I thought of, but not really helpful, but kind of funny. I was like such a good point, why don't we root for the winner? We're going to be more likely to win if we were anyway true, but what's?
Speaker 4:fun in that right exactly. It's so satisfying to see the underdog win. Yeah, there's no drama.
Speaker 4:There's nothing in it, yeah um, except cold hard facts right, yeah, um, I keep thinking of this example of a client of mine who had imposter syndrome and what's super fascinating. So, again, I have so many people who come and set up calls with me and they're like I got to let you in on the secret. Like, sometimes I feel like an imposter and they feel so embarrassed about it and think like they're the only ones and I just want to be like, if you only knew how many people like I would argue that all your colleagues have felt the exact same way as you. So this particular person already was the top seller at their software company. Like they had the number one ranking. They went to President's Club, they already were the top. And so I'm sure that all the other people in the organization were like well, obviously that person doesn't have this problem, right. All the other people in the organization were like well, obviously that person doesn't have this problem, right. But this person came to me and was like I get in these meetings with Fortune 50 CEOs and I personally don't have a college degree and I'm sitting across the table from people who are McKinsey Harvard graduates with their MBA, and who am I to be telling them how they should run their business. And so this person felt like they would get really befuddled with their MBA. And who am I to be telling them how they should run their business? And so this person felt like they would get really befuddled with their communication. They would talk too fast, they would get like all confused and they felt like they just couldn't handle it. And not that they couldn't handle it, but they were like I maybe need communication training because I just talk too fast, because I'm so nervous. And when we helped identify the imposter syndrome and helped reframe it of like this is just a growth phase, you would not be feeling this unless you're a massive success which we know that you are and reframe the way you're thinking about it.
Speaker 4:And I think of it as like I don't ever try to solve imposter syndrome. I don't ever try to vanquish imposter syndrome. I try to just notice it. And I am a high achiever and somebody who has real big aspirations and wants to be growing. And so now when I notice it, I tell myself like, oh, I'm in my sweet spot. This is exactly where I want to be, where, if you talk to me, what would that be 15 years ago, when I was working for the startup 10 years ago. If you talk to me then I would have told you like there's something broken in my DNA. I see all these other people. They seem to be way more confident than me. I guess I'm just not a confident person and I'll never be confident. And instead now I see that same imposter syndrome as just like oh, I'm in my sweet spot, I just have to keep going and it's inevitable that it's going to go away.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, what we're saying is normal and healthy yeah Let me tell you that seller ended up closing two massive deals. He made seven figures as a seller that year and then did it another couple years.
Speaker 1:Once he resolved those mindset problems when you said that, the communication, he got befuddled and and uh or she um in in boardrooms with fortune 50s. It reminds me we were at freight waves and I was on live tv, you know, or for htv.
Speaker 1:A lot of times I had no experience I didn't know what I was doing, I'd come off the show and I'm like man, that was such a disaster. I don't even know what I was talking about. Then I'd re-watch it Not saying it was good, but it was just like oh, no one out there could perceive what was going on in my head, because it didn't show and it just kind of went smooth, it wasn't a disaster.
Speaker 1:It just went as smooth as I could do it, um, but we can, or you know, we get in our own heads oftentimes and what we perceive is much more dramatic and and overboard than what everyone else perceives. Totally.
Speaker 2:It reminds me of the time I was playing baseball. I got called up out of rookie ball or extended short season to high A, so I was skipping two levels and Johnny Gomes, his brother Joey, his locker was next to mine. Joey had been in triple A forever. He's like where are you going? I was like California. He says, oh, are you nervous? I'm like, yeah, I am, I'm skipping two levels, I'm nervous. He's like well, all the hitters in the California League, they're terrible because if they're any good they'd be in AA. When you get to AA, all the hitters there they're awful too, because if they're any good they'd be in AAA. Aaa hitters can't hit because if they're good they'd be big leaguers. Big league hitters aren't good either because if they're any good they'd be all-stars. Watch out for the all-stars. Those guys are good.
Speaker 2:But it was this way of saying like same thing with imposter syndrome. The game is a game I always think of. Like the emperor has no clothes, the old, like kid story, you know, and sometimes when I, when I feel the imposter syndrome, it can feel like you're walking around with no clothes on. But I think what's the the mind? My little mind game is nobody has clothes on. All the emperors have clothes on.
Speaker 2:So, it's not that anybody, it's not that you're actually addressed, it's just everybody's feeling this. We just all, uh, we all handle it differently but I think the emotions are a big part of it. So one question to you would be what is a story, where kind of the most emotional episode of imposter syndrome that you can think about and maybe riffing a little bit on the role that emotions play in imposter syndrome?
Speaker 4:That's such a good question. There's not a story that's coming to mind, but, thinking about emotions, we tend to believe that our emotions are caused by the outside situation. Like well, my boss showed up upset, so of course I'm going to be upset today. And the reason we believe this is because our caretakers, we were socialized to believe this. Our caretakers were well-intentioned, but they would say things like oh, did he make you feel bad? Did she hurt your feelings? And so we learned that our emotions happen because of things that happen outside of us. And it's a very anxiety-inducing place to be because you can't control anybody outside of you. You don't know how they're going to show up, so you don't know how you're going to feel. And it's actually a fallacy. It's. It's not that our emotions are created by and there's exceptions to this, like in trauma and other things but our emotions are not created by the outside circumstance. Our emotions are created by the meaning that we assign to the outside circumstance it is yeah, yeah and, and I, I follow stoicism.
Speaker 1:I've been into stoicism for about a year or so. I guess, I've always been inclined to it, but I've gotten back into it lately, and that's that's one of the main tenets. Right, it's it's not what happens to you, it's how you react. That's what you can exactly. You can control how you react. And it's very important for your mental health to take a deep breath, relax and respond in a way that you feel proud of Totally.
Speaker 4:And it's super interesting because your emotions are the fuel for the action that you take. There's nobody that feels super overwhelmed, super decisive, super like worried about things and they like go out and take amazing action. No, when we feel overwhelmed, we go scroll on our phones and so. But the times when you do feel like motivated, you're pumped up, you're feeling like awesome, you go out and you take amazing action. And, depending on the action that you take, that's what gets you the results that you have. And so feelings, I think, are a really undervalued but really critical piece to all of this of like noticing how you're feeling. And you can change how you're feeling by changing the meaning that you assign to things.
Speaker 4:Like a lot of sellers had a really, really difficult time in 2023.
Speaker 4:It was just a really tough market, yeah. And so you could see like, okay, the situation outside of me is that the market is tough in 2023 and I could think like I'm doomed, I'm never going to be able to be successful, and then I might feel like apathetic or like completely like hopeless, and then I'm not going to take very good action. Or I could see, like you, what the market's not that great. I'm going to focus in. Like my meaning that I'm going to assign to it is like I'm going to focus in on the basics. I'm going to get really good at going back to basics and practicing my maneuvers. The feeling might be kind of determined and the action that I take is going to be way better than the alternative. I'm going to actually be taking action, I'm going to put myself in the best situation to get the results that I'm looking for, and so I do think, like I obviously work with a lot of male clients, because that's what the majority of sales is, and I always am like okay, we got to talk about feelings.
Speaker 4:They're like oh no this is the critical piece that so many people are shoving down and it actually is going to be what. What changes your results for you period?
Speaker 2:that's so good. It reminds me of uh, what was it? Victor frankel who was talking? Um, you know what I'm looking up. His quote says everything can be taken from a man but one thing the last pure human freedom to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. I always love that quote because that is our one freedom that nobody can ever take away, no matter what.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it's really powerful. And your brain is not your primitive brain. The lower part of your brain is the one that's like operating in the moment and it's just focused on risks. It's just focused on, like what do I need to do to stay alive? Like if I send that email, I might die. If I give that presentation and bomb it, then I'm probably going to get fired and then I'm going to lose all my money and then I'm going to end up homeless and everybody dies. So your brain is like focused on all the risks.
Speaker 4:It also somebody, a coach that I love she likened it to a drunk cockatoo Like it's just like repeating things that it hears. So we have all these thoughts that are coming up that aren't even true. But it's we. We don't spend as much time as we need to just building the awareness of those thoughts and like recognizing, like is that actually true? Like no, I'm not doomed, I'm probably not going to end up homeless, even if I lose my job. I probably could find another one, you know. But we just believe them and then we like let ourselves spin out and so just building the awareness and paying attention to what's going on our brain and not believing all of it is a massive step that you can take.
Speaker 1:But those voices should be there, right, it should be normal, because if they're not there you're kind of like a psychopath or a sociopath. There's something wrong with you if you don't hear those voices and that soft doubt and what generates imposter syndrome. As you're out, if you're totally confident and you have no doubt about yourself, you're kind. If you're totally confident and and you have no doubt about yourself, you're kind of an oddball, right?
Speaker 4:the goal is not to remove negative emotion. There's actually no such thing as negative emotion. There's uncomfortable emotion and unwanted emotion, and there's wanted emotion, but then things that we would deem negative emotion are the things that are keeping us alive. If you didn't have that, you'd die because you wouldn't be worried about anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah, and can you talk a little bit about the importance of storytelling with imposter syndrome? The stories, the narratives that we create, you know, to ourselves, the narratives that we try to live out ourselves, the narratives that we try to live out. I feel like there's a connection there with storytelling inside of our own brains and the imposter syndrome. Yeah, I want to call it an issue. I want to call it maybe like a dynamic Is that the right word for it? The imposter syndrome dynamic.
Speaker 4:So here's how I describe imposter syndrome and I think it's really helpful. I think I compare it to muscles, our physical body. If you go do a new workout you maybe are like really good at CrossFit and you switch and you do Zumba, you're going to feel very uncomfortable and afterwards let's say, it's like a really intense Zumba workout You're going to be sore. You're going to feel muscles that you've never felt before, and I think of that muscle soreness after workout being the same thing as imposter syndrome. But the difference is, when you feel sore after a workout, you think to yourself oh, it's working. I'm using this discomfort as evidence that the growth that I'm trying to achieve is working. And imposter syndrome is the same. It's just mental discomfort, that's just like sore muscles, but instead we make it mean. I'm not cut out for this, and so I think of it as like yeah, it's a temporary thing, a passing phase that means that we're growing.
Speaker 1:And it's uncomfortable, yes, but it doesn't mean anything's wrong. Do you think that that that, especially the, the, the clients that you coach, right, you get to a point, do they get to the point where they harness the imposter syndrome feelings for to to increase their growth right To that they harness the power of that to to move forward, that they kind of enjoy the feelings, that, that anxiety of imposter, and they identify it, they label it and they kind of ignore it or push it to the side or do whatever needs to be done and uses that for accelerating their growth right, making more sales. They take it and they take that, what most people perceive as negative, and they turn it into a positive and it helps them in their career.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the analogy I like to use is it's like swimming in a prom dress, like swimming sales itself is not an easy thing. It takes a lot of effort, and swimming takes a lot of effort. But you're doing it in a prom dress, like, let's get you in a swimsuit. It's going to feel so much more comfortable. And so I think of imposter syndrome is not as like you don't. You're never going to get rid of imposter syndrome and you probably don't want to, because that would mean that you're complacent, and the people I work with are not people like. Complacency is like a bad word to them, right, and so it just. Imposter syndrome becomes no longer this weight that you're carrying around. But it's like what Liz Gilbert says.
Speaker 4:She talks about this in her book Big Magic. She talks about how fear is always along for the ride whenever she's writing something new, whenever she's embarking on a new project. And it used to be that fear would be in the front seat driving. And now she says fear, like you're going to come along the ride I prefer you weren't here, but like you're going to be here, you need to sit in the back seat and you don't have any control over where we go. You don't get to control the radio, you don't get to pick the songs, but you can come along for the ride. And I think about imposter syndrome, that same way of like it's going to be there, it's fine that it's there, and you kind of use it as a signal of like. Whenever I experience imposter syndrome, I think I'm in my sweet spot, this is where I want to be. It's working, like the effort that I'm putting in is creating the discomfort that I'm looking for, and it's going to create new skills.
Speaker 2:So take us through that progression. Let's say somebody is listening and they're like, oh man, I might have it, I might have this, this. What are the various steps along that journey that you see people go through, as far as kind of transitioning or progressing through this, this mindset of oh no, and freak out to our and this is normal.
Speaker 4:So it takes a lot less time than you would think it can be like a individual coaching session that we're able to make the transformation. The very first step is definitely awareness. You have to notice when you're feeling that imposter syndrome and the next step is just re reframing it, changing your paradigm about imposter syndrome. It changing your paradigm about imposter syndrome. If you start out thinking it's a really big problem, but then, like, I can talk you into believing that like, actually it's not a problem. You're the kind of person who likes growth. You're the kind of person who wants to develop new skills and like success. So imposter syndrome is a sign that you are right there, in your sweet spot. For a lot of people, that kind of releases it and then it just comes into the practice of like oh, I just noticed it again, I'm going to go back to like, I'm not going to let my primitive brain like run the show and be like this is a disaster, like they're going to find us out, this is going to be terrible, and instead I'm going to like notice that I'm feeling imposter syndrome. I'm going to remember my mantra of like, I'm in my sweet spot and it can kind of like release from there your brain. When you think a thought, it's two neurons in your brain connecting, and the more you think that thought, the stronger that neural pathway gets. They've done scans of people, scans of the brains of people who have OCD, and they can see an actual divot in their brain where that neural pathway is, of whatever their recurring thought is, and so you can think about this.
Speaker 4:I think of it as like a structural thing in your brain. Whenever your brain's like I have to get from point A to point B, how am I going to get there? Let's choose this path that we've been going down for decades. We've always thought this about ourselves. But those paths are also just like routines and habits in your brain. It doesn't want to spend too much energy on it, so it just goes back to the default.
Speaker 4:It's kind of like if you move houses within the same city, after you move, there's probably times when you're leaving the store, you're leaving school, you're leaving the whatever and leaving work and you start driving to your old house. It's not that you're doomed for the rest of your life to keep driving to that house. You just have to remind yourself like, oh, we got a new path to do this and so now you're just trying to build this new neural pathway so it just becomes awareness and going back to what you want to think about it, and slowly you can like, that old neural pathway will break apart and the new neural pathway will become really strong and that will become your new default.
Speaker 1:Do you find that there's a personality trait or type that has the most difficult time getting? Over imposter syndrome. I was going to say perfectionist or type A, but what did you say? Sorry.
Speaker 4:High achievers High achievers Because they're just in it all the time and so they think it's like. They think it is a personality trait. They don't see it as a short term thing. But yeah, I definitely see, my clients are typically people who are high achievers.
Speaker 4:They've been successful in the past but they're in a slump right now. They're not sure why they're in a slump and they definitely have some perfectionist tendencies. They have some imposter syndrome and the biggest problem that I see with my clients is they have so many shoulds of themselves of like I should be doing this way. My morning routine should look like this I should be doing this many calls. I should be optimizing my schedule in this way, and I work with my clients to release all of those shoulds of like let's figure out what uniquely works best for you and like dump out all the stuff that the gurus tell you that you should be doing. Like you got to find your own routine and your own rhythm so that you can feel really safe with yourself and also build a lot of trust in yourself of actually doing what you said you were going to do.
Speaker 2:I feel like a lot of people in business and sales are just and high achievers especially go, go, go, go, go, go go. I need to have a calendar that is stacked every day, and I mentioned this to a friend of mine today. I was like I feel like when you're in sales you kind of fluctuate between the stress of having a completely jammed calendar and how am I going to fit all these meetings into the day and handle my emails and not having that and dealing with the anxiety of oh no, what, why is my calendar?
Speaker 2:And so you're, you're, you're kind of back and forth between you. Uh, yeah, that's a. I might've mentioned that to you, kevin, but I feel like where was I going with this? I feel like, um, what are your thoughts on the importance of intentional boredom, which is what I'm going to call, uh, meditation, or or being intentional about unplugging and getting away from everything? Where does that fit into the imposter syndrome spectrum? What are your, what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 4:Um, I don't know that that necessarily fits into imposter syndrome spectrum. What are your thoughts there? I don't know that that necessarily fits into imposter syndrome, but it definitely fits into being a high achieving seller. My goal for all my clients is to get them to a place where they are first and foremost, prioritizing their work. You can make massive change for yourself by just doing the most important thing and knowing what the most important thing is. If you have nothing else, start there, just write down every day three to five things on a post-it note that you have to get done that day and get them done. That alone will create massive change for people.
Speaker 4:I work with my clients on first knowing what the most important work is.
Speaker 4:Doing that most important work during what I call your superhero hours, when you're most alert, like let's just get it done.
Speaker 4:And then my goal for all my clients is that they have massive pockets of open space in their day and the reason that I think it's so important and I don't call it boredom necessarily and I also am like neurodiverse I don't do well with meditation and so I encourage my clients if they're like me, if you can meditate, great, but if they're like me, I encourage them to just go for walks.
Speaker 4:It's really helpful for me to create space for myself to be able to think about things, but I can't do it meditating or whatever else. I need to trick my body into being like we're doing something productive by going for a walk, but it's really just an escape for me to be able to think. When you have that spaciousness, you're able to create so many more solutions to your problems. The clients that I work with are enterprise and strategic account executives, and you cannot be strategic unless you have time to think about the strategy. So the highest bang for your buck and the highest value activity that you can do is allowing yourself the spaciousness to think. So I think it's a really key thing that a lot of people aren't talking about.
Speaker 1:It is essential. It is essential. You need your quiet time. You need a packed calendar. You need your quiet time. You need a packed calendar. But you need your quiet time and sometimes there are days that you need to forego everything and and recharge and create a strategy that will will help you get to that higher level. Definitely, amber, it's been great having you on the show. Uh, again, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4:Thank you for having me. It's been fun.
Speaker 2:And Amber, before we let you go, where can our listeners find you If they want to get in touch, or about coaching, or if they have questions about imposter syndrome?
Speaker 4:how can people yeah, um, for this podcast audience, I open up a few slots. So if you want to have any more conversation about this, like, feel free to reach out to me. You can find my schedule at mentalmasterycom and just click on work with me. You'll see my schedule there. And if you want to follow along, get any more of my information, you can also join my newsletter there or I post on LinkedIn every day. You can see all my thoughts, all my unsolicited advice over on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, thanks again.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thanks so much, guys.
Speaker 2:Thanks, amber.