Ep. 23: Inclusion for Special Education with Guest Dawn Ellis - Building a Culture of Belonging

In this episode we are joined by Dawn Ellis from the Be the Exception podcast to discuss the importance of inclusion in education. We explore different inclusion models, the benefits of inclusion for all students, and the challenges that schools face in creating truly inclusive classrooms. Listen as we share practical tips and strategies for teachers and administrators who are looking to create a more inclusive learning environment for all students.

Don't miss Audra's FREE checklist to assess your school's current inclusion practices, available in the Misfit Behaviorists Facebook group or in the ABA in School's TPT store!

Find Dawn Ellis at the Be the Exception podcast or on TPT as Cultivating Exceptional Minds!

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Transcript

Dawn Ellis: admin have to see the significance and the importance of having our kids be in those classrooms, but also having the mindset of general ed teachers.

Welcome to the Misfit Behaviorists Podcast. Join your hosts, Audra Jensen and Caitlin Beltran, here to bring you evidence based strategies with a student centered focus. Let's get started. 

Caitlin Beltran: Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Misfit Behaviorist podcast. Today, Audra and I are lucky enough to be joined by Dawn Ellis, host of Be The Exception podcast, and she also runs a special education teacher store called Cultivating Exceptional Mind.

Audra Jensen: Hey Dawn. Hi Caitlin. 

I was thinking about this subject the other day. It actually came up. It's kind of apropos because I had a friend I was having lunch with and she's been a, A one on one para for a few years, and she just found out that her district is moving to the full inclusion model, and she had these questions about what does that look like, what's that going to mean for our self contained classrooms, and then at the same time, I think that very same day, I was in one of the groups and I saw somebody posting about the same thing in a situation.

I started thinking, you know what, I think this is something we really need to talk about. It's like there's this movement, which is a wonderful movement for a More and full inclusion and how that's coming out. And so I thought maybe we could have a discussion about inclusion models. What do you think?

Dawn Ellis: Yeah, I think that's a great topic and it's so important and it's a powerful component in education to move our learners to have success throughout, from like preschool on up and having that mindset of inclusion matters and that it is where we want them. It can have such a benefit for special Educators, Specialists, and, and beyond.

Yeah. 

Caitlin Beltran: Yeah, and Audra, when you say full inclusion, like, I'm just thinking that could mean different things to different people. Like, what did that mean when you heard it? 

Audra Jensen: Yeah, so, that's a great question. I actually, I've seen a number of graphics that kind of explain this and it helps me kind of wrap my head around what that means.

And so, if you're watching this on YouTube, I'm going to actually share my screen and show I found this to be the best one that I've seen that explains it. So you have like these kind of four levels being like exclusion is where we don't have our kids with disabilities in our education system at all, this was kind of when I was growing up back in the 80s.

This is kind of what we had. We really kind of segregated all of our students away from actually, that's the next one is segregation is we had then our students in a self contained and this is all kids with disabilities in a self contained program and we had, you know, special names for them and stuff, but it was very much a separate over there and we're over here and they would come in once in a while for like lunch or something, but it was really separate.

And then over the course of the years, I've seen a move into what now you may think of as integration, where you take a group of students and you place them in with your general education population. And that's definitely closer to inclusion. You know, you're getting them in there with your. non disabled peers and their groupings together.

And this is probably what I've seen most done. And usually what I've seen districts and teachers think of what inclusion is, but inclusion really is that next step where you have your students. of all disabilities and they're integrated or they're included within the system completely. And so if you walk into a classroom, you may not be able to tell who is on an IEP and who is not.

And so when I think of inclusion, I think of kind of that fourth model, that, that high model that we're hoping to gain. 

Caitlin Beltran: I love that. I love that integration versus inclusion because I think so often people, you know, it's easy to say like, Oh, this is an inclusion model. But if you're really peeking behind the curtain, it's like, is it being thoughtfully done and intentionally done versus just putting them in the same room together? Those are two wildly different things. 

Dawn Ellis: Yeah, for sure. And I think it's funny that you bring up those four models. Last summer, I did a training on like, co teaching and collaboration. And we kind of talked about those kinds of models and the benefits of different kinds of co-teaching. But I was talking to an administrator just yesterday and we were talking about inclusion because in my role as a self-contained special ed teacher in a K two setting, I am a huge advocate for our learners of all abilities to be in that classroom every single day.

I have to have the manpower to do that, but it is so imperative.and so anyways, I was having to advocate because. I feel like with that kind of the different models of inclusion, we definitely want the fourth, but that also starts from administration down. Yes. Because the admin have to see the significance and the importance of having our kids be in those classrooms, but also having the mindset of general ed teachers.

These, and I said this to the administrator yesterday. These are not my students. They are all general ed students first. They receive services and maybe even like different kind of curriculum from me. But until we've got to shift that kind of mindset with admin and teachers that these are all gen ed kids and they all have to be taught from that gen ed teacher with the support of the special ed team. And in order to do that, that's when inclusion is the most successful, I feel like. 

Audra Jensen: Yeah. And I think I've seen, there's a movement towards inclusion. And I think what you're talking about, that upper level, I feel like a lot of times they're pushing for that to be implemented. They put the cart before the horse, you know, this is a great idea.

This is our aim star. This is what we want to happen. And then administration, whether it's because they have, you know, a big heart and want to do it, or honestly, a lot of times it's financial because it's less money for them to group them all together and put them in a classroom than to provide enough support for that.

And so with whether, you know, whatever reason they're doing it for, they're kind of putting that cart before the horse and not thinking about what do we need to do to plan for this to be successful. And when I was reading these comments from this, this post that I saw, some of them were really good.

Like, somebody said. I actually pulled them up. Don't forget that if a student has an IEP, you must have a meeting to discuss the least restrictive environment for each student, and I think that's really important because I've actually seen districts do this where they're moving towards a more inclusive model, which is great, and then they just do it, and they forget that the individual IEP drives that placement, and they're talking about a complete placement change if they're going to full inclusion, so they have to consider that as part of it too.

Caitlin Beltran: And also that it could look different, like I'm imagining Dawn, if say you had six students in your classroom, those least restrictive environments for each of those could be different rooms, right? Because I know in our special education self contained classroom, some of them push out for homeroom in like a general ed kindergarten, for example, but some of them are able to sit in the resource room for their math academics and so there's like varying levels that like, Audra, you were mentioning. It doesn't always mean okay, now, all these kids are going to go to all this room and that's inclusion. It doesn't work that way. 

Dawn Ellis: Yeah, it's definitely like a continuum and to keep that in the forefront of our mind to that, like, just because we did it last year doesn't mean that has to continue like in that and that just because they have alternate standards doesn't mean they have to be completely secluded just continuum of the ebbs and flows of what their needs are and to do that in a least restrictive format is definitely, what needs to, you know, be our main focus and it's, you can find so much success there And that's when I feel like that we can fade those prompts to, like, yes, we may have to be more supportive those first few weeks of the year, but that's for all kids. Like, everybody's learning new routines and expectations and everything. But having that adult support from a special ed team member inside a general ed classroom during different high points of the day can still provide that support that they need while still being inclusive. 

Audra Jensen: Right. And you actually brought up another thing that that least restrictive environment that we use And how important that is to understand that least restrictive environment isn't a placement, isn't a location. It really is individualized for each student. So, you know, and i've had some Students where we have tried to do an inclusion model with them, and it was not least restrictive for them.

It was in order for them to be successful in there. I mean, we had to have Velcro paras on them. We had to isolate them in the room from the other students. They weren't prepared for that learning environment. And so, in that case, you know, we may need to pull them back into a more, kind of restricted setting, but providing them a lot more support, and then we practice those skills in such a way that they can always we want to end up there.

But that least restrictive environment doesn't always mean a gen ed classroom. That's not, you know, it's just what is right for this student right here. 

Dawn Ellis: Yeah, I feel like sometimes the there's a little bit of red tape. I have seen at least in the elementary setting, because like, especially kids that are on general ed seniors, Instruction has to come from general a teacher first, right?

So and so having some kids removed, especially if they're not an alternate standards that yes, we have to target those behaviors. And yes, that makes such a big difference. But we also have to be intentional with those instructional times too.. Even though it's like, yeah, so like you, it's just, I feel like we're always problem solvers and what works for one kid doesn't work for the next kid or what works today doesn't work tomorrow for the same kid.

But being mindful of providing them that instruction, while also reducing and addressing the behaviors that are seen and documented as well. 

Audra Jensen: Hey, Caitlin. What have you seen in your districts? Kind of the history over there?

Caitlin Beltran: Yeah, I think to echo the theme of what we're saying of being intentional and prepared for it. Logistically, I feel like for anyone listening who's like, Hey, I kind of want to do this. But like Dawn mentioned, I don't know if I have admin support, like what that what does that conversation look like?

Because I know now me approaching that with my team looks very different than say, when I first started out in public school, and I would have felt maybe more, you know, less inclined to take the initiative to have that conversation or know exactly what to say. I think now I would recommend to anyone having that conversation, like really think about what each student needs to be successful in each least restrictive environment and start making those lists and then speak to your admin, not just about generally like, hey, I want them to go to morning meeting or they could sit in this lunch class.

But like, all right, I've really thought it out this. You know, child has a para in their IEP, so they need to have a para, but they also need these visual support. They also need the general ed teacher to understand they need to sit in this kind of location, and they have a calm down spot in their behavior plan.

So, like, can we meet with this teacher? Can you give me an extra planning time? So we can work on these things because if you go in with like really specific targets that and you know, you're learner best as the teacher, you can then facilitate the conversation and really take an active role in like fostering that successful inclusion.

Audra Jensen: Have either of you had a situation where you're taking actual data on the success of an inclusion model running in your districts? 

Caitlin Beltran: We have just done, based on, I guess, the academic and behavior data we've taken. I don't know if, we've specifically looked at, for example, like the rates of behaviors we saw, kind of a situation where you mentioned, Audra, where maybe we tried to go too much too fast, and behavior spiked, and then we had to pull back and be more systematic.

That's the example that comes to mind. It was like frequency and duration of aggressive behaviors for that child. 

Dawn Ellis: Yeah, I think we kind of look at it like hourly or like, by subject kind of breaking it down to see if there's any, like, off task or thorough looping and kind of having, like, thread a data running, frequency and the general teacher can take it or the para or special ed teacher as it's happening.

and I was going to loop it back around to Caitlin was saying, when you go talk to your administrators, I feel like one tip that I feel like, to be mindful of is you. Go and advocate for your students, which is so important is to also go to the admin, not only with what you need, but having possible solutions,

Because when they see that, like, look, I'm not just, I need, I need, I need, but like, here's one way we could do this or another, like they see it as, okay, let's find a solution. and I feel like sometimes that can just come off a lot more, it's better received and then they're willing to help you a little more to you.

So.thinking through, and sometimes you don't have all the answers and that's okay, but kind of thinking through some possibilities can definitely be helpful when you're advocating to administrators of your needs of your students. 

Audra Jensen: So providing them choices just like we do with the kids. Would you like the red inclusion model or the blue inclusion model?

Caitlin Beltran: I was thinking along the same lines, like I had this idea and I have some possible solutions. Do you agree? I want you to feel in control here.

Audra Jensen: Well, and I think the next thing that I want from both of you is like, what do you see is kind of the barriers of all of us as a society moving into a more inclusive model? And especially when you think about, you know, you're just you're. Kind of blanket academic needs are a little bit different than your more severe behavior issues.

So what do you see as kind of the barriers for our districts and moving into that model, providing that support? 

Caitlin Beltran: I feel like for me, it's just the realistic expectations of a teacher, whether it's the Gen Ed teacher or the Special Ed teacher, because when we looked at that chart that you first pulled up, like, we used to be here, and now we're here, it seems like, oh, we're in this beautiful place now, but taking that zoomed out lens of being like, we still have a while to go.

And you still have, general education teachers starting these classrooms, not really anticipating or expecting that that's going to be a conversation their first, second or third year. And we all know that some teachers are just open to anything open to change. and then you're going to have pushback from certain teachers that think, Oh, I always did it this way.

And who's to say that wasn't, you know, me or you at one time in our lives either. So no judgment, but is there enough training and expectation that like to Dawn's point before is the admin setting the tone that like, well, remember it's not your kid or my kid, it's they're, our kid. So if this is a first grade student, any one of you teachers could be responsible for this child at any point in the day.

And providing that training and, you know, supporting that push for inclusion. I, to me, I think that's just the biggest, I guess you could say it more simply trying to do too much too fast, but just, it's not a realistic expectation that teachers are anticipating all the time. 

Dawn Ellis: Yeah, I think that another struggle is like the funding, well, two things, funding for the support, because if you do an inclusion model, you've got to have, like, because we have like one resource or inclusion resource slash resource, teacher per grade level. But that means you can only be in one classroom at a time. So for full inclusion, it's not just going on for 30 minutes, which that's where you start. And that's great. But also we've found that, you know, trying, if you have an inclusion classroom and you're very intentional with it, you also can't put all the identified kids into one classroom.

And overweigh, you know, not keeping at least 50%. And so that's another struggle is like, well, we can't have a special inclusion teacher for every single classroom. So how do we make that work? Um, like, do you have the other teachers, special ed teachers pull the other, resource kids and the teacher is just in one inclusion class and they follow and model,

Audra Jensen: I know what our district's moving towards. I like to see the idea moving, but I, again, I think Dawn, you're completely right that a lot of it is funding. But what I see them doing, and I think would work really well if we get the funding and enough staffing for it, is that every classroom has. All the kids and not all the kids, but you know, they're dispersed throughout every single classroom.

There is no single classroom in a school that doesn't have kids with IEPs in there. And then within that classroom, they have to have enough support, staff support, throughout the day, the entire day, you know, so we're talking about they have to have enough and it's not. And this is where I think the districts I've worked in here,

they've gone a little bit of miss as they'll like assign a para. you know, for each classroom, which is a great start, but it may be that this particular classroom has two kids in there that need a para individually in order to keep them, you know, able to access the learning. And so it really has to be individualized on that big, big view of the whole school is each particular classroom is going to be a little bit different.

Caitlin Beltran: Yeah. Like just putting more bodies in each classroom to your point is not it. And also, unfortunately, could become an easy solution when you think about a para's salary or hourly rate versus a special ed teacher. And I'm not saying that, you know, the para could be the most amazing para in the world, more experienced potentially than another teacher, but it's just different backgrounds and different levels of training.

And are each of them again, coming back to funding, getting the training they need for this kid, having the background experience and expertise? So it is a lot. 

Dawn Ellis: Yeah. And that's even where professional development jumps in one things I met with my admin this week on was just I really want to, like, get my paras in before we start school, just to train them on the IEPs, like, and then that inclusion model, too, like, training the general ed teacher, having expectations, how are we going to communicate?

Are we going to have, like, a running document? Am I helping with lesson plans? Like, there's things to, like, flesh out a little bit there, too. But also having admin expectations of what it all looks like, and then training from, again, the top down so that it can run smoothly. 

Audra Jensen: That's what I was going to, the training, I think sometimes we get into professional development and it's just like everybody sits in a big room and we talk about one thing up there.

And why don't we do more of our BST training with these type of things? You know, we need to be training, not just giving them information, but there needs to be some modeling with the paras. You know, how do you do this in a classroom, in a real situation, modeling for them, letting them practice while we shadow and kind of watch them and giving them that feedback, that's really the only way that the all of the staff within their plus the para and the teacher, you know, gets that training throughout the whole thing. And one of the things I think of, I really like to see and try to train that the staff that I've worked on is to teach the students that are in those classrooms that your first person to go to is the teacher, not the para who's in the room, and then teach the para, look, your role is only to be there as little as possible. And I've said this before, Caitlin knows it. I teach them that their job is to work themselves out of a job. And so teaching the para that directing if a student has a question and they direct it to the para, you know, say, hey, you know, The teacher's right there.

Go ahead and ask her and redirecting that. So we're constantly thinking about how can we eliminate and reduce those supports out of the classroom so that they can be more successful, which then creates an inclusive model. 

Caitlin Beltran: I love the idea of the more in the moment trainings because I was thinking along the same lines like I'm sure we, like many other districts, we do the one day in the beginning of the year where we go through everything with all the paras or the special ed team and then. surprise things change over time or some people didn't miss the thing here or there And we don't to me. That's the biggest difference I've seen in my experience in my out of district private school versus public.

We had 45 minutes minimum before school and after school with the whole classroom team. And that's unheard of in a public school. It's not realistic right now. However, we keep adding things to public school teachers’ plates. And this is one of them. And it's a wonderful thing but to keep adding and then not adding those supports and one of them is time.

When are we supposed to do that? And it's one thing to say, oh, and along the way, like, you know, your behaviorist or your supervisor will come in, but there's only one of me in my district and there's only so many admin to go around and it gets tough. 

Audra Jensen: And I also saw a problem with the paras schedule is that at least in the districts around here, their schedules basically start five minutes before the kids get there and end five minutes after they leave.

And that is their contracted time. And so finding time, and then we have kids, you know, the entire time. And, I think we're allowed a one hour a week that's always taken up with some admin thing going on. I mean, there just is not enough time to interact with our paras. 

Dawn Ellis: Right. Or train them properly. Truly like let them in on the strategies and the reasons why we do it. 

Caitlin Beltran: The why. 

Dawn Ellis: Yeah, and then even if they do take the data, I to help analyze or see the importance of what's happening there, That's exactly. 

Caitlin Beltran: I think, and I've had so many paras like, oh, can I, you know, look at this after school?

And I'm a big proponent of like that work life balance. Like, they shouldn't have to be doing anything. They shouldn't have to be looking at anything on their lunch or thinking, you know, thinking. Working on anything, coming in early. And I've had so many wonderful paras that will offer to do that, but that's not fair to them.

And really, unless we're giving them more money and compensating them for their time, it doesn't make sense. Like I would love to have one para per grade or something that almost, I guess, like an RBT model where, and I think that might be the next thing that we start seeing more and more of. that would make sense, but, and then it gets to the point where I'll You know, if I'm just going to pay another person to do this, do we need to look at that model more, but yeah, money, money, money.

Audra Jensen: Yeah, no kidding. Our district now has a BCBA and we've hired, you know, several RBT's and the initial, you know, right now our bonds aren't passing. So the money's disappearing. It's not going to last, but the initial idea was that there was an RBT assigned to each of the schools. And that RBT, I mean that and that they weren't assigned to a classroom.

They were just assigned to check in throughout the day on each of those schools. And I know one of the other districts our bigger districts where I have several BCBAs out there. They have a BCBA at each school, you know, and then they have RBTs within the classrooms as needed. So I mean, but of course, like I said, that's a bigger district.

They have more funds, they have more, you know, access to people and it's just, it's harder, especially with the little districts. We just don't have the funds for it. 

Dawn Ellis: Well, we've written some grants for like behavioral support. I don't know about in your districts, our behaviors have just been off the chart since COVID.

And so, we have been very fortunate to have a BCBA and some RBT's at I think each of the campuses. but they're overrun with like, oh yeah, it's all done and the day either whack a mole. Um, and so it's a constant just game of like, how do we make this fit? Yeah. Every day. 

Caitlin Beltran: In my district, behaviors are down every year.

I'm just kidding. Caitlin again, where do you work? I just wanted to see if I could get you. 

Caitlin Beltran:Well, I  think that's such a relatable thing. Like I think every year we're getting more expectations. Behaviors are up. We're trying to do more inclusion. We're trying to make these great strides, but it just gets to be that feeling of

Audra Jensen: I hear that everywhere. And I hear funding everywhere is harder than it's ever been. So you put those two things together. You've got higher behaviors, you've got less funding. You've got, teachers are leaving. Yes. Teachers and paras, we're not able to retain them. It's just, it's really hard for right now for teachers. And so I guess kind of coming back to that, we want that full inclusion model.

And that really is what we all want, what is best for the students. So thinking about the barriers that we've talked about, what would you think of like one thing that you think your, maybe your district could move towards? What is one actionable item that you guys could work on? 

Caitlin Beltran: That's a great question.

Um, what you were saying before about in the moment day to day, trying to figure out ways to look, because like I said, I do have paras who are very eager to learn. And so I've seen things in other schools where it's like a newsletter or like a Friday blast of just optional, but like, hey, if you want to

check out this, you know, like error correction model or something. And especially in our ABA classrooms, I like that., yeah, like I'm just trying to work it in where it's like light and fun, but like, if you're interested, cause I don't want to make anyone do anything, but a lot of like, we've had paras before that are like, wow, I love this.

I want to pursue my RVT now. So if you're just genuinely interested in do or like something that We all have those days where it's like, Oh, my gosh, three kids have the flu or everyone has speech today. So you have a pocket of downtime. And we just don't have the planning ahead to be like, let's do an impromptu PD.

But something like that, where Oh, hey, check out this module I made last month, if you're just waiting for your kid to be done with speech. 

Dawn Ellis: It started like, just like a one sheet. I started trying to just do like one strategy. And so when there is just a little bit of downtime, whether it's five minutes or whatever, that the paras can just read over like a one page thing.

And it has just like a little definition, a script, basic information so that I'm not trying to like teach them 40 strategies, but then they can compound, they can see why we are saying, you know, first we're going to do this and then we're going to do this, or why we need to use visuals and so just Because I don't, we have had a large turnover of paras because of pay and because of various things.

But, so we've had to train a lot of paras on the go, and making sure that they are best meeting our kids needs. However, your question was to,what's 1 thing that we feel like our, we could do in our district. And I think that it truly shifting that mindset of, like, they are general Ed students first.

And when we do that inclusion, whether it's the most of your kids, or it's just a kid with one, you know, organizational goal, they are all seen as a kid in the elementary school, not, oh, that kid has an IEP or is a behavior problem. And I feel like shifting that little bit can have a huge success on a full school success of inclusion.

Audra Jensen: I love that. I was thinking for mine in our area, I think when we do have meetings and our weekly PLC, I don't know what you guys call it. I can't remember what PLC stands for, but when the special ed department all gets together and talks about incoming kids and stuff, we did it once a week, it's a different name for everybody, but our admin would almost always one of the admin would come.

And I was thinking, you know, if we put on the agenda, just very quickly, you know, something about inclusion, what is one highlight that we had within our, system this week. What worked really well this week? How are we moving more towards that? And think about, two minute discussion each week with the admin and the entire team might help us sort of shift our ideas of what what is needed to move more towards this full inclusion model.

Caitlin Beltran: Oh, I love that. I love all of these ideas. And I think that especially the last few we talked about just being that solution oriented, but also carving out time, like whether it's with your team, your school PD, your in the moment training or your weekly meetings to highlight like what's working. My supervisor does that a lot and she'll say like, Okay, tell me what's not working.

But first, tell me what's working because there has to be something that's working. And it just like Dawn was saying, it shifts the mindset a little bit like we're not trying to just list all our problems. We're trying to also see the good so that we can grow with that and not just continue to talk about what's not working 

Audra Jensen: I, I was just going to say that I did put together a checklist for, you know, you, if you want to use it with your schools, with your district, with your team, if you want to just look over yourself, just 20 quick questions, like where are you at in the inclusion model?

And so we'll put that into the face group and share it out with anybody that wants to see it. You can also go to my TPT store which is abainschool.com. You'll find it there or just email or contact us or whatever and we'll get it to you. But it's just a very quick check in that you could either just look at yourself or you could take to one of your meetings and say, Hey, where are we at? Are we moving more towards this or not? So that was my idea this week. 

Caitlin Beltran: Nice. We always need something new to take data on, right?so definitely check that out in our Facebook group or find us on Instagram, the Misfit Behaviorists podcast, and join us next week. We are going to be joined by Heather from the Full Sped Ahead, and she is going to chat with us on Google Forms and how to use those super effectively and easily in your classrooms.

Audra Jensen: Awesome. Thank you, Dawn, so much for coming on. We love it. Hello. Thanks, Dawn. We'll see you next week.

 Thanks for listening to the Misfit Behaviorists. And be sure to tune in next week for more tips and tricks. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.