Ep. 31: Demystifying the FBA Process mini-series – Part 1 The Referral Process

In this episode of the Misfit Behaviorist podcast, join hosts Audra Jensen and Sami Brown as they kick off a new mini-series focused on the Functional Behavior Assessment (FBA) process. Audra and Sami delve into the importance of having a structured referral process, how it helps teachers, and why clear communication with parents is crucial. Discover practical advice and real-life examples on identifying when a behavior truly needs intervention and how teachers can effectively use a referral form to address challenging behaviors. This episode is packed with insights for educators and behavior analysts looking to improve their approach to managing student behavior. Don't miss out!

Key Points:
- Introduction to the FBA mini-series with Audra Jensen and new co-host Sami Brown
- Importance of the referral process in behavior support
- How to determine if a behavior is disruptive or unsafe
- Tips for teachers to identify and document challenging behaviors
- Collaboration with parents and involving them from the beginning
- Real-life stories and experiences from Audra and Sami’s work in schools

Helpful Resources:

• Behavior Team Referral Process
• FBA Template bundle of resources

Next week: Conducting Initial Interviews 

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Transcript

Audra: [00:00:00] some of the students that you and I are called in on are more intensive, are more complex. And so the type of FBA and BIP that we create is more, uh, comprehensive. 

Introduction: Welcome to the Misfit Behaviorist podcast miniseries. This round, join your hosts, Audra Jensen and Sami Brown, here to bring you fun and functional advice for creating and implementing behavior plans. Let's get started. 

Audra: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Misfit. Fit Behaviorist Podcast, and we are making a pivot today. Caitlin and I are going to be working on putting together a course for behavior management in particular, because that seems to be what people are interested in. And so I brought my work wife on for a mini series. And so I have Sami Brown here with me and we, I'll tell you a little bit about where we came from, but everybody say hi to Sami.

Sami: Hi, Sami. 

Audra: So Sami Brown and I have been friendly for many, many years [00:01:00] because we first became, we first knew each other when I had, and you'll have to jump in here because I'm going to mess up everything because I'm much older than you and don't have a memory. And you have a good memory many years ago, I had an ABA clinic and she was one of the moms of, you know, her, her cute little boy was one of our clients.

And so I knew you just sort of briefly on the periphery, cause you had different BCBAs that were working with your kiddo, correct? And then when I went back into public school settings and became the BCBA in our local district and I remember walking into one of the classrooms, I think it was a resource classroom, right? The first time I saw you again? 

Sami: I think you were actually putting on a crisis management training in one of the portables. And you put up on the screen, the crisis mountain and a crisis cycle. And I think afterward I joked with you and I said, I hope you're not using my son's stuff. 

Audra: I do remember walking in for the first time in, in the elementary school resource room where you were a para and you were [00:02:00] running a group in there.

And I sort of watched cause I was, I can't remember if I was watching. I was probably watching a kid, but I was watching you going, you know, She's really naturally good at this. She would be really good. And we started talking and stuff. And how did y'all have to remind me? How did I get you into this field then? Did I just say, hey, come do what I do? 

Sami: Yeah, basically. No, you, you kind of came to me and said, what are your plans? Like, what are you doing with the district or what do you see yourself doing? And frankly, I had just left, you know, stay at home mom land and was back working in the school district, kind of to try to get some of my own identity, so to speak, back and I, I said, I didn't know.

But the 1 thing that I remember from the very beginning was how frustrating it was for me to see that the teachers didn't really have the initial support that I think that they needed when they had students, neurodiverse students in their classroom and we're missing some professional [00:03:00] development that maybe at the time the district didn't make at the forefront.

And so I had mentioned to you that I really, you know, it was hard. I'd go into a classroom and, you know, I could make some very quick fixes that wouldn't be an overall behavior change. But I think in that moment, Provided some relief for this, the teacher and for the student, and I said, I wished I could do more of that.

And I think that alone is what kind of pivoted you to say, what about becoming, you know, an RBT yourself? And I knew what an RBT was because at the time. We had, you know, multiple RBTs, you know, that had been coming into the home for years. And so I knew of them, I knew what they did. They, I couldn't see myself as one, but I followed your lead.

And I remember you and I started meeting once a week and kind of, you took me under your wing. 

Audra: Well, I have a very big wing, so you fit right under there. So yeah, so Sami became one of my RBTs of the district, and then I pushed her even further to go get her BCBA, so she became a board certified behavior analyst, [00:04:00] and then when I left the district to sort of retire, she took over the BCBA role there, continued to run the district with the RBTs there, and then she moved away and left the state, which I'm still really mad about.

So while Caitlin and I are working on this other project, I thought, you know, it'd be really good, because I get a lot of questions about our FBA and BIP process. And I think Sami, you and I did a really good job with this brand new district who hadn't had BCBAs or behavior techs or anything. So I think we did a really good job of getting our district to start a process for requesting behavior support.

And then also, and I, I think I helped you train you and how to create really solid FBA BIPs. Now, when a district does It kind of has a history of creating FBA's and behavior plans it's very typical for them to be kind of more simple and I've seen a lot of which just like going through the IEP software and then there's a lot of like check boxes that kind of fit and and that actually a process like [00:05:00] that in kind of honing in on behaviors for most students and situations are fine.

But some of the students that you and I are called in on are more intensive, are more complex. And so the type of FBA and BIP that we create is more, uh, comprehensive. And so I thought in our little mini series, we'd go over kind of our process in requesting behavior support, and then also our step by step process and how we create an FBA and BIP from beginning to end.

Sami: I think that 1 thing that, uh, I noticed just coming in and you obviously have a lot more experience was that whole whack a mole the minute that the district or teachers or administration, you know, got wind that we've got this thing going behavior support it was, well, come and see this student or we've got this student or Oh, thank goodness, now you can help us with this. You could very easily, especially as a new BCBA into a district or formulating a new behavior support team. If a district hadn't had BCBAs on staff before could get really overwhelmed. And [00:06:00] so it was a really important opportunity for us to stop and say, okay, let's pause because there are existing systems in place.

If your district has an MTSS and are those systems running appropriately, because if there's, you know, weak links in that chain, that chain's going to fall apart and then it kind of teeters. And so developing a specific chart flow chart process for us of what warrants our intervention, so to speak, and where have we been with the students and recouping that was really important.

Audra: Yeah, and I think that's the best thing we did. I think that's the 1st thing that we did and the best thing that we did in figuring out how to create a process for that access. And that when we first went in and started working with teachers and being called in for student support, it was it was exactly that, it was whack a mole.

It's like, this teacher needs this and that. And there was no process. And I found that once we created a process from beginning to end from their concern about a student. I'm going through actually receiving our services and support [00:07:00] just the process itself of the referral help teachers gain not only ownership for what's going on in the classroom, but a lot of times we found that we're able to fix a lot of the problems just by going through the referral process.

We may not even need to go in by the end of the process anymore, because the teacher starts to figure out what they're looking for, how to define the behaviors. What do we mean, you know, and how to track their own stuff. And with simple strategies, we're able to actually make a meaningful impact with out even going through a whole like behavior plan process. 

Sami: You know, this is going to probably be a little bit of a sidebar, but it's, it, I think it correlates in the other day. I was going through my cell phone and I have probably 6, 000 pictures on my cell phone. I've got a problem. I need an intervention, but I was trying to weed through some of the pictures and I came across, Oh, I don't know, maybe 200 across a span of time of our old dog, who was a Dachshund oscar who lived until 17 and I said to my husband the other day, I said, you know, it was really sad for me because I looked at these pictures and [00:08:00] I didn't see at the time how old he was and potentially how much pain he could have been in because I was so close and so emotionally invested in him being a part of our family.

And he was so special that I just, I, I couldn't see it. And now looking back through these pictures, it was like a night and day. And so yeah. I know that's kind of a, uh, weird, but I think that sometimes the teachers get so emotionally invested and then they feel defeated even though their, their skill set is there and they are doing a great job in so many areas that they're just a little bit too close to the situation that having someone kind of come in from the outside who is very respectful that it is their classroom and it is their space.

And we're not going to have them do things, you know, like a circus performer that they aren't skilled to do, but just helping them kind of walk through a process of a different lens with that student that maybe they hadn't seen prior. 

Audra: Yeah, I think that's actually a very [00:09:00] perfect metaphor of what we're talking about is, yeah, having the teacher have some ownership and taking that step back kind of, it forces them to stay take a step back and kind of look at a situation. So I'll go over quickly, kind of what our referral process is jump in any time here that you remember. So the first thing that we did when we created was we have a teacher or any sort of adult professional that has an initial concern about a student.

And so the very first thing we want to do is that's where it starts, you know, it's like, Hey, you, I've identified something that is important behavior that maybe needs to be decreased or behavior needs to be increased that's going to help that student access their learning better. And so that's kind of the very first thing you have a teacher, they have a concern.

The questions that we have them ask is, is the behavior significantly disruptive to the learning or safety and I think that was a really important question because a lot of times teachers will get fixated a bit on behaviors that aren't necessarily [00:10:00] overly disruptive or unsafe, and they may want to fix things that don't need to be fixed.

And maybe that's the first thing, just asking the question, is this extremely disruptive to the classroom or is it something we just need to deal with? Maybe teach the other students how to be okay with, you know, different behaviors like that. 

Sami: I think just one thought that I had is, you know, individuals that are on the spectrum do have some self stimulatory behavior. And I think that that is part of them as an individual. And so we're not going to go in. Yeah. And we're not going to try to Make them change because that's who they are. And so I think that when you're talking about having the awareness and understanding of their peers in the classroom and their acceptance, I think that there's things that we can do if it's not walking in circles around the entire classroom.

Maybe there's duct taped little path that's in the back of the class where they are then taught to be able to walk along that path, so to speak. So they're still getting that same internal need, that internal function [00:11:00] without maybe the full disruption of it being, you know, a racetrack. 

Audra: Right, that's exactly right.

And so at that point, once we have that teacher thinking about that through the lens of, is this something we really need to address? Or is this something we can just use classroom based strategies? That point, we'd have them fill out a referral form. And in that referral form, we would have them sort of just anecdotally tell us about what the behavior is, when it's happening, what they've tried already. And I'll put that in some of these other visuals in our Facebook group, which is, you can go to Facebook and find us at the Misfit Behaviorists. And I'll put that in there as well. And then, so once we have the teacher has filled out this referral form, then we might create what's very commonly known as the ABC data collection, which is really anecdotal.

And I think giving them just that basic data collection just gets them starting to think about, okay, what was happening before the behavior that I'm concerned about? What did the behavior look like? And what happened after the behavior? Now, this isn't like completely [00:12:00] measurable, so to speak. This is not an objective form.

This is just getting the teacher start to gather that anecdotal information that we can then start looking at more extensively. 

Sami: Yeah. And I think that this is where we had mentioned just previously. Yeah. Right before I have to start filling anything, I really do try to find out where they are already in the MTSS process.

Now, if they're truly, truly unsafe, and they're flipping desks, and there's a safety concern, then I'm obviously going to push in and go right to administration because there's something that needs to be addressed. However, they may not have even accessed, depending on if it's a lower level behavior, any of the original support that are already in place per building.

Audra: Right. That's exactly right. That's perfect. So then once we'd have kind of that ABC anecdotal data, we have a submitted referral form, we can gather some more information from that. We then review kind of as a behavior team, the referral and that anecdotal information. And then we decide, okay, do we need some more anecdotal information or do we have enough to really make a determination?

Do we need to [00:13:00] continue on with the process or can we just go in and implement kind of classroom based strategies? And is that going to be enough? 

Sami: And I think that it's also, you know, I'm pretty special. I don't want to brag, but I can't magically make things happen. And so I have at times asked a teacher to collect some ABC data because it is their room. They're going to have a full lens, you know, of understanding of, like you said, you know, what's happening before, during and after the behavior. I've also not received anything back. So I can't really help either if I don't have that lens of, you know, being able to peer in and see what's happening. And then I think that leads to a further question. Are they not in a, uh, ability to collect that data? And if not, what's the barriers to that is the way that we've initially requested the ABC form to involved. Can it be a checkbox? Can we modify that collection just in general? 

Audra: And that also I found that sometimes we give this information to a teacher and it takes a little bit of time to gather this [00:14:00] information and put it all down that sometimes just enough time has passed for them doing that the behavior is not such a significant concern anyway. And it kind of weeds out those that really need to be seen. And 1 that, you know, sometimes a behavior pops up and a teacher, you know, has 30 kids in there and there's like, it's a big deal, but then maybe it's a behavior it's not going to last very long, it's sort of, they're going through a girl spurt or whatever it is. And sometimes just the process itself will help weed out those situations that have just give it a little bit of time and it will calm down. And sometimes we don't even need to go further. The behavior is kind of fixed itself over time.

Sami: Yeah, or I've had a teacher that's gone, you know, I did four or five lines of this ABC and I noticed this always is happening right before, or it's every time it's during math. And they kind of come to this own epiphany on their own by being able to look at it from not that emotional lens, but from that data driven piece to say, oh, I'm connecting the dots myself, I don't need you anymore. And I'm like, but wait a second. I'm pretty special. 

Audra: Well, that's another thing. I think this kind of primes [00:15:00] their pump and like, we're going to continue on. If this does continue on, we're going to continue on with more data, it's going to be a little bit more specific and maybe a little bit more difficult to collect or whatever it is.

It kind of primes their pump like, okay, I can do this. You know, they're going to teach me, they're going to create a system for me. They're going to teach me how to do it. And it's something I can do. And we're going to get really good information out of it. So that kind of helps weeds us through and then pulls us into, at that point, we can have kind of a decision meeting with our behavior team, which is what we did.

We decide, okay, we have this information. We can look at it. Are we going to move on with like a full behavior plan and, you know, functional behavior plan and possibly a behavior intervention plan? Or is this something we're just going to, you know, do we need to talk to admin about, you know, extra breaks for the student or classroom strategies or whatever it is that we can just do without a full behavior support team or a plan to go forward?

Then at that point, we can decide, you know, do we need to go back at all? Do we just continue on? So from that decision that we make, so either we're going to go forward with just classroom [00:16:00] resources and monitoring and revising anything, or we're going to go through and talk about a more extensive plan, which might be a full functional behavior assessment, which would mean, which would be the next process in getting our signatures, Getting dates on the calendar, understanding that we can't really do any sort of observations of the students until those things are met at this point.

Up until this point, we're only getting information from the teacher or maybe therapists that work with the student in different settings, but we can't really do any sort of intervention or observations, even without having those parent signatures and making sure they're on board with what's going on.

And even very the very beginning. Most of the time we do want parents in the very beginning, you know, we have a behavior support team. The teacher hopefully has a really good relationship with that parent and is having those conversations anyway. So this isn't a big surprise because you don't want to have that conversation with a parent who has no idea that their student is engaging in certain behaviors that's problematic at school.

And these random people are starting to contact them about [00:17:00] plans and stuff. So we just want to make sure we have that open communication with the parents at all times. 

Sami: And I think that that's such an important piece because sometimes, you know, I've heard kind of floated around, well, you know, you're technically part of the special ed team, and you're technically part of the IEP team, or you're technically this.

I don't want to work on that specific technicality as a parent myself. I deserve to know what's happening with my student. Uh, you know, it's, it's important for their involvement as well. And I'm sure at some point we'll, you know, discuss that seesaw behavioral contrast where in one setting, you know, you've got a behavior under control and then in another setting, it's not, you do need the parents on board because it's going to set them up with their own personal understanding and involvement to have their student come to school in the best possible way. Possible state and we'll probably talk about that through the process as well.

Audra: We will see you next week when we do part two, which will be conducting those initial interviews and getting signatures [00:18:00] and reviewing histories and all that good stuff. So we will see you then. Thanks for listening to the Misfit Behaviorists and be sure to tune in next week for more tips and tricks.

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