Ep. 2: From Hairstylist to Heart Whisperer, with Michelle

Ever felt like your voice in the bedroom was more of a whisper than a roar? Let's change that narrative together. I'm Lee Jagger, and alongside my insightful guest Michelle, we're bringing you a candid episode where we peel back the layers on sex, communication, and the transformative journey of self-discovery. From erotic massage to the empowering stories of personal growth, we're here to embolden women to speak up and stand out in their most intimate moments.

This episode is a treasure trove of revelations and heartfelt stories. Imagine finding your true self at the crossroads of life post-divorce, or learning that the key to unlocking a deeper connection with your partner could be as simple as integrating erotic touch with open-hearted communication. My own evolution, from feeling undervalued to basking in the joy of giving pleasure, is just one tale of transformation we explore. And as we weave through Michelle's transition from hairstylist to relationship coach, we celebrate the power of continuous growth and the beauty of embracing your inner goddess.

We're wrapping up with a bold call to action for all the ladies out there looking to redefine confidence in their relationships. With a mix of personal anecdotes, expert insights, and a dash of humor, we're challenging the norms and inviting you to join a conversation that's as enlightening as it is entertaining. So, if you're ready to rock the bedroom and amplify your love life, tune in, and let's spark that flame of empowerment together.

Michelle's IG: @hairguru4you

Here's your first step in spicing up your sex life--get Lee's free erotic massage technique: rockthebedroom.com/

For new erotic massage techniques every month: rockthebedroom.com/membership

Transcript

Lee: 0:01

Welcome to the Rock the Bedroom podcast where we talk about sex and intimacy. Hi, I'm Lee Jagger and as a sexologist, I've helped thousands of women spice things up in the bedroom, even if intercourse is off the table. And this is the first non-sex sex podcast that shows women how to be more confident in the bedroom, create passion and playfulness in the relationship and have the best sex of their lives. Just a heads up I will not be censoring my guest's language, so you may hear the occasional F-bomb. Get ready for a juicy conversation as we explore how to rock the bedroom. I'm kind of jumping out of my skin right now. I could not be happier to be hosting this episode and providing entertainment and hopefully some inspiration on how to have a fabulous love life.

Lee: 1:00

Just a heads up we will be talking about sex. We will be talking about body parts. That is intentional, because we can't rock the bedroom and have a better sex life if we don't talk about this stuff. So there is so much taboo around the subject, which just keeps people in the dark and feeling alone in their sexual dissatisfaction and not feeling like they can talk to anyone and get help, and so many people desperately need help in their sex lives. So that is exactly why I wanted to create this podcast to educate people, to make this not such a forbidden subject. I want to normalize this conversation that we desperately need to have, and I've been doing this with my clients for years now, helping thousands of women feel more empowered in the bedroom and in their relationships in general and be able to like, find their voice and ask for what they want and say no to the things that they don't want, so that they can have well, basically, a happier and more fulfilling relationship.

Lee: 2:16

And I want to now bring this to a bigger audience and inspire more women to let them know that they can have more in their sex life. And that's why I have joined me to do so. Excited A woman who I deeply admire for how open she is, as just this eternal perpetual learner she's I mean, with me, she's learning how to feel more confident and how to communicate better in relationships, even though she's amazing at it already. I just I liked her from the moment that we met what is that? A couple years ago now, oh my gosh and I couldn't be more excited to have Michelle join me today. So thank you so much for being on the show, michelle, welcome.

Michelle: 3:05

Oh, my gosh, what an introduction that is. I'm so flattered that you speak that highly of me, because I can totally reciprocate those feelings back to you. Lee, when I first met you and saw you in your program, I was like I like this woman, I really like her. I mean, I loved what I learned, but I just there were. You're so genuine and authentic and real and that's what pulled me in for sure. Oh, nice.

Lee: 3:37

Well, thank you, yeah, and just for our listeners, I mean, if you don't know me already, yeah, this is gonna be real. This isn't gonna be so polished. I'm not gonna do a lot of editing like with the life is real and it's not. It's not life hasn't been through the Facetune app and all smoothed out and the wrinkles are gone and the blemishes are invisible, like life is messy and real and raw and we're not perfect, and so I certainly am not going to be perfect on this podcast. I don't well, actually, I think the mess is the perfection, don't you agree like this idea of things? Per, we want perfection, but I think perfection isn't flaw-free. Perfection is just authentic and real and genuine.

Michelle: 4:35

Yeah, for sure. I remember hearing once that excellent perfection and excellence, excellence is a journey, not a destination. Yeah, and I always tell people, imperfectly, imperfect, so we're not. We're fallible humans, like we were talking about earlier, and we make mistakes and we pull ourselves up and get back in the game because everything is a learning curve. So, yeah, yeah absolutely so.

Lee: 5:03

This is gonna be a very real podcast. If you're new to my world, you yeah, this is it. This is real as it is. Yeah real conversations.

Michelle: 5:16

Two women talking about stuff.

Lee: 5:18

Yeah, yeah, juices stuff, yeah very yummy very yummy. But I'm used to that because you know we get together every week on the coaching calls which I'll tell you all you listeners, about later. But yeah, every week we get on a coaching call and we talk about the stuff that you just didn't learn in school, that we should have learned in school. Yeah, so talking about all things sex and relationship and communication and relationships, all that kind of stuff.

Michelle: 5:49

Yeah, can I just say something really quick about that, because, being a member of your your group, I didn't really know what to expect when I chimed in on those calls. It was, you know, a Q&A thing where we're talking about the techniques that we're learning, yada, yada. However, lee, you go even deeper with us as your subscribers. That is just like a level that I wasn't expecting. So it was so refreshing to have a support system, not just for me but for all of us, where we can kind of bounce off of each other and hold each other up in our womanhood. So thank you for that.

Lee: 6:30

I'm glad I over delivered. Excellent For the listeners who don't know, because this is not in the intro thing. But so I teach erotic massage. That's how most people know me. Oh yeah, she's the she. She's touched 2,000 penises. You know, she's got all these techniques on how to massage a guy's privates and and so. So, yes, I do teach different erotic massage techniques for women to do on men, or really men to do on men and whoever wants to do it on men and men's body parts.

Lee: 7:08

But there, yeah, you're right, there's a deeper level here.

Lee: 7:11

Like you can't, you can't just do these techniques on on someone who you have a really lousy relationship with and have no love for or no intentions on being able to communicate more, like that's not going to save your relationship.

Lee: 7:31

That what saves relationships or makes good relationships even more fulfilling, I think, is the communication and the, the empathy, understanding how your partner thinks and how to say certain things to your partner to not make them defensive, how to find your voice in the bedroom or in the relationship in general.

Lee: 7:53

So you could just talk about anything you need to, especially the tough stuff, like all that stuff goes into having a great relationship. So I could teach all these massage techniques to wow your guy and blow his socks off and break his brain a little bit and make him see heart emojis, you know, looking at you doing, doing these, these techniques, but at the end of the day that relationship is still gonna break up because there's more to just being in the bedroom which is funny because this is a rock the bedroom podcast but really I mean wham bam, thank you, ma'am and mister is just not it. It's okay at times, but there's more to that, there's more to be had, and so I'm I'm glad that I'm delivering more than just the, just the hands-on tech massage technique stuff. I know I surprised you with that, that's good yeah, I was.

Michelle: 8:50

I was blown away because I belong to other support groups and we zoom in on you know weekly session and I was like that, this is like therapy, this is awesome, but not only that, it's just women who are real and all over the world which just the other day we had that one that was in from Copenhagen. I'm like, oh, this is awesome. I'm talking to somebody like halfway across the world and it felt great and it just it's very supportive and it's very warm and cozy and I just I'm super appreciative to you for that thank you, I appreciate you saying that.

Lee: 9:28

That's always lovely to know that my intentions are, they're being fulfilled, like they're there. Yeah, that's exactly how I want everybody to feel in the program. But I'm not here to talk about the program, I want to talk about you. So because you are so fascinating and I love how you are so eager to jump in and help other women on the call and, you know, put in your two cents worth and your perspective, which I find very valuable. But so before you even knew about Lee Jagger, before you came across me in my world, what was your love life like, like? What were relationships like for you? Have you been married before?

Michelle: 10:15

Yeah, thank you for asking. So I was married for 10 and a half years and my ex-husband had a couple of affairs and my saying is first time, shame on you. Second time, shame on me. I was trying to work through all of that and save the marriage and we had two small kids, three and five and it just it wasn't working. I learned in divorce recovery takes two people to get married. It only takes one to want to divorce, and divorce break the marriage up and people don't get married with the intention of divorcing. So it's a very ugly, hideous, painful thing to go through, especially with children. So kind of and you don't know this. This is really interesting because this is part of my story.

Michelle: 11:10

I totally committed myself to my kids. So after my divorce I was celibate and abstinent and didn't date anyone for 11 years. Ooh, I know, and I was about I guess I was sort of 48, 46, 40 somewhere in there, I don't remember. I forget how old I am. I'm old, but I act like a teenager. My head, I'm a teenager, yeah. So I just didn't want to be in a relationship and then divided it with my kids and back and forth. I just wanted to focus on my kids and I wanted them to have the stability and the security and the safe place, and this is when we were with mom. This is comforting and this is she's all about me.

Lee: 11:58

So that is so sweet, by the way, thank you. Like I mean to be such a good mom. It's easy to be a crappy mom. It's hard to be a good mom, to be present and to make certain sacrifices and put your kids first.

Michelle: 12:13

So yeah, and even I know you're a mom too, because I know your story. But I always tell my kids when you grow up you're probably gonna think what, why did you do that? I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. You know that old Maya Angelou saying do your best, and when you know better, do better.

Michelle: 12:35

So that's one of the things that drives me as an individual. And the kids were in high school and I was in. I signed up for like a 12 week online personal development class and I had a coach that I would talk to on the telephone. It wasn't a Zoom call, it was just a phone call and it was week three and at week three she wanted to know what my intention was or what my goal was at the end of the 12 week program. And I was just dragging my feet and self-sabotaging and I'm a person who just dives all in head first. I'm like okay, let's do this. I wanna get through this process as quickly as possible. So I talked to her on the phone and through a series of questions, we kinda honed it down, because there were all these different categories you know work, you know family, health, wellness, relationships and we honed it down and I said I got it. I know exactly what I wanna do. I wanna lose 30 pounds at the end of this program. And she was like okay, why? And I was like because I think that if I lost 30 pounds I would feel more confident in who I am and what I look like and I wanna get back in the dating pool and I think that Min would be more attracted to me. And her first immediate response was I was like why she goes? Nope, you're wrong, that's a limiting belief, that's a limiting belief. And I was like, oh, you're right, it is a limiting belief, even though I know all these self-improvement. You know I follow all of this stuff and I have for many, many years. Sometimes we get these blind spots, and that was a blind spot for me. And she said you don't know this about me, michelle, because we've never seen each other face to face, we've only talked on the telephone. But I was born with a condition called spina bifida, and spina bifida makes it so that I have to walk with two canes. And when my husband divorced me I felt like I was never gonna meet anybody else again, that I was damaged and nobody would ever love me. And that was a limiting belief, because now I'm in the most loving relationship of my life.

Michelle: 14:51

So I said yeah, you're right. You know, when my kids say things that sound judgmental or opinionated, I never tell them they're wrong, but I use that as a parenting moment and say you're right. And isn't it wonderful that we're all unique and we're all different and the world is diversified? And just because you don't like it doesn't mean somebody else doesn't. It's what makes the world so colorful and so beautiful that we're all different, unique human beings and that there's a lid for every pot and a seat for every ass. And just because it doesn't work for you. And so my coach Roberta was like, yeah, exactly.

Michelle: 15:31

So I went online that evening and wasn't even a dating app on my phone, excuse me. It was a website plus size or big, beautiful women website for dating and I just plugged in this, you know half-assed, five-minute, whatever pictures I had, and by the end of the day I had like 20 hits. I'm like holy crap, really. And then I went on the phone and went to the app store and found this plus-sized, curvy women dating app and I made myself a profile there and I started attracting all these men. And I knew, when my marriage ended, my ex-husband God bless him, and again he only knew what he knew at the time blamed me for his affairs because he said you gained weight after you had kids and I'm not attracted to you. My logical mind knew that it wasn't about me that it was really about him, and I was in therapy too. But my subconscious mind really held that and created this limiting belief that if he's not attracted to me, then no man that's gonna be attracted to me, which is a big crock.

Michelle: 16:50

So I started interacting on this website and I was 58 at the time and I had this 24-year-old who was coming after me like gangbusters and girl. I'm telling you, and I can remember my I know right and my therapist that was so conflicting too and my therapist I remember her telling me at the end of the divorce and while I was going through my transition, she said now I really encourage you to start dating right away, because if you don't, it's gonna concretize, concretize. And I was like in my mind, I'm envisioning this big thick layer of concrete right and so. And I didn't. And she said if it concretizes, it's gonna be really difficult for you to break through that.

Michelle: 17:39

So I have this young guy who's coming after me guns fully loaded, and I'm bantering with him in the chat room like why me? And he's like why not? I think you're hot and sexy. I think if we met we'd really vibe. I really like your energy, blah, blah, blah, and using the tools that I had learned through from that point from my life to that point no limiting beliefs, barriers down, let it go. Why judge? Just enjoy the moment.

Michelle: 18:10

So we met, we clicked. I liked him. He took me on dates. He was so chivalrous and I told him that he was pursuing me and wanting to get intimate with me, and I told him that we were making out. This is so funny, excuse me. We were making out if any of the listeners live in Southern California, you'll know this in Huntington Beach, at Lifeguard Tower 28, at the corner of PCH and Warner, there's a jack-in-a-box there that's been there ever since I was a little kid. It's still there.

Michelle: 18:51

We went to the Lifeguard Tower and we were having this heavy make-out session and I was like, okay, just a minute. All of this is yummy and delicious and I really am enjoying myself and I know where you wanna go. However, it's been 11 years and I don't want my first time to be at Lifeguard Tower 28 in Huntington Beach with sand in my butt crack and a spotlight shining on me with my blouse off from the Lifeguard's telling you feet on the clothes, you have to leave. I'm like, no, that's not. I said I want it to be romantic and I want it to be special and I wanna buy sexy lingerie so I feel feminine and pretty. And I said and I choose you. So he popped my proverbial cherry and he did, he delivered.

Michelle: 19:44

Then I'm listening to all these podcasts because I'm a big podcaster, and I heard your interview with Layla London on the Curious Girl Diaries and I was smitten with your story and I could tell again when you told your story. It was genuine and authentic and I'm a hairdresser by trade but I also see pictures. So when people talk to me it's like little movies that play in my head and envisioning everything that you're talking about. And so I went and I dug and I found your website and then I found that there was this program that you offered that was a week long, that was in my budget at the time. So I joined and I was also part of a women's group at the time and relayed to one of my fellow sisters in that group about you and she joined.

Michelle: 20:38

She's in Florida and it was great because it was, you know, all kind of online. We didn't have to go in person or anything and the Zoom calls were recorded so we could go back and re-watch the interaction that you had with the girls in that group same as like what we do every week when we meet with you and I was learning these wonderful techniques that I was able to apply on my young lover that I was and he was like what are you? What are you doing?

Lee: 21:18

So, okay, you're back. You're newly back into the. You know having a sex life again. And so here you try. How long had you been with this guy before you tried some erotic massage techniques on him?

Michelle: 21:34

Well, we was interesting because our sex life to and I just recently ended my relationship with him our sex life together was approximately three and a half years, and I think we became active sexually in 2019. And then I took your program. Was it last year, I believe? I think it was last year. So we, our trans, our sexual evolution started out very vanilla and then it started getting into some different discoveries and because we were very comfortable with one another and and you talk about communication being so important, which it is he had a degree from Arizona State University in communication, so that was one of the things that I was really attracted to him about was he was open in communication and understood, and so we slowly introduced all these little things into our sex life. And I told him that I joined this wonderful class to learn about erotic massage and that I would like to practice on him, and he was like, yes, yeah, yeah. I remember.

Michelle: 22:48

Every time I would was with him and I would use one of your tools, he was like, oh God, I'm so glad you took that class. Oh, my gosh, I'm so grateful that you took that class. You have no idea how lucky I am that you took that class. I never, ever, had a man say that to me prior to taking your class. And let me just say this other class that I was in at the time, where I got my friend from Florida to join, was about it's about masculine and feminine energy and it's about communication skills. And it's about you know and you've witnessed me do this in our group too where you use specific words. It's all about using specific words so that you don't create a defensive reaction. You create a more open, receptive reaction on the partner, whoever it is that you're talking to, and in her class, what she was teaching us as women was you don't let that magic wand in. You know you're Antonio, that you have my dildo that I can create on sometimes.

Lee: 23:46

Those of you who don't know the name's Antonio Antonio.

Michelle: 23:50

Yeah, so anyways the magic wand is being. Demands penis.

Michelle: 23:54

And she was teaching us and coaching us don't let that man's penis in your mouth, anus or vagina until you've had some type of commitment that you're in this long-term relationship. So it was really geared more towards women who are looking to get married and partnered and start a family. I'm past that. So she said, we'll always tell us it's okay to share affections, meaning if you go out on a date and you're in an intimate moment, he can perform oral sex on you and you can give him a hand job. Well, a hand job prior to that was spaghetti, spaghetti, spaghetti and that's another Lee Jagger term Like, yeah, it's like straight up and down, up and down, up and down, up, and what we all think of a hand job to be.

Lee: 24:41

Yeah. What I love about you describing spaghetti too, is everybody likes spaghetti.

Michelle: 24:50

Spaghetti is good, but it's not good all the time. If all you ever eat a spaghetti gets kind of boring, exactly. And so that's what my toolbox was Spaghetti. That's all I knew was spaghetti, and so it wasn't.

Michelle: 25:04

It didn't feel like I was actually giving pleasure, or pleasure to me to just do this, you know, like, and to touch a man scrotum or even go in and around and really discover, even like on an uncircumcised penis or whatever, that there are these parts that are beautiful and unique and that when you're touched them a certain way, they're you know, you can feel their bodies quiver and you can feel their body and you can feel their body and you can feel their body and you can feel their body and you can feel them a certain way, they're you know. You can feel their bodies quivering because they're so enjoying it and there's something so freaking, empowering and I know you know it because your juju is what you teach all of us Like, wow, I have that power over a man just by touching him and I'm like what do I do to? What do I do to? And where I am now with, with your tools and my tools.

Lee: 26:10

Michelle, you seem to me like you just exude Confidence, self-esteem, like you. You just you seem like you're really put together and the way you talk it feels especially like when you share that you've had. You seem very confident in sexually speaking, and so I'm curious as to have you noticed a shift in your confidence since expanding your repertoire beyond spaghetti and for the listeners, so that, if you don't know, I name all of my techniques after food to make it easier to remember, and so that's why we call it spaghetti. But so when you expanded your repertoire and put more sexual tools in your toolbox, so to speak, then like, did your confidence go up even more? Or did you? Yeah, tenfold.

Michelle: 27:13

And I'm a type A personality. I'm an Aries in the zodiac sign. I'm an Aries son, with a Leo moon cancer rising. So you know.

Lee: 27:26

I don't know what any of that means.

Michelle: 27:27

I know, I know it's okay. So I'm into, like, mysticism and metaphysical stuff and self-improvement and limiting beliefs, and you know manifest your magic and you know the law of attract. I'm into so many different modalities and things, but I think just by nature I have that. I don't know where it came from, but in the bedroom, especially after the divorce, when my ex-husband told me that he wasn't attracted to me because I had gained weight. And then I started getting all of those, these affirmations and people who were attracted to me and you know the comments like oh, you're so hot and you're so sexy and like, and maybe, let me just say from younger men too. They weren't. I mean, I did get some from who were my age, but the majority of them were from younger men hot, hunky, like bodybuilder guys.

Michelle: 28:19

And I'm not that woman, I'm a plus size woman. You know I put it on my profile that I'm a plus size, curvy woman. I don't fit the social norms and men don't freaking care. So when I, if I put on my profile that I have skills in skills in erotic massage, I get all these. I want to be, I want you to practice on me and like that. That was for anybody who wants to put a profile together.

Lee: 28:50

That's a good hook That'll attract some attention.

Michelle: 28:54

It does attract a lot of attention. You don't have to have a filter. So you know my lover, my young lover. I remember him. This was before I met you. But he said to me your confidence is so freaking sexy Now where my confidence comes from in in interacting with, with men.

Michelle: 29:13

And I was just texting somebody the other day because he's kind of quiet and he doesn't really. He doesn't really respond and communicate a lot, and he said I've been waiting for you and I said thank you so much for letting me know that. I just want you to know that I am a girl of the old school mentality and I don't feel comfortable texting a man or initiating. I feel more attracted to a masculine energy who's pursuing me. And when you pursue me, it makes me feel desired. And when I feel desired I feel sexy. And when I feel sexy, boy, do I want to give and be a part of your world. Just connect the dots right. So it was that simple, but your techniques and tools took it to a whole new level. I mean, like when people's like. I think I even shared with you in an email that I was on a date with somebody and we got Frisky in the back seat of his car.

Lee: 30:13

Yeah, that was a juicy email.

Michelle: 30:15

Yeah, we were like having a really appreciate that. We were having this hot make out session. One thing leads to another, and all of a sudden my hands are in his junk and he's like oh yeah, you can try, but I don't usually have and my intention was not for him to happen orgasm, my intention was for him just to receive pleasure. And so I slowed it down and did the. You know, slow equals moan. And here we go and boom, and he was like what was that lotion you used? It wasn't the lotion.

Michelle: 30:50

It wasn't the lotion it wasn't the lotion, and I sent you that email about like, oh my gosh, it's been over a year and I still am practicing these techniques and it blew his mind, you know, just like you said. So those little incidents that happen, where I'm able to touch a man confidently and not be afraid, is so empowering for a woman who is in her sexuality and is open to her sexuality, and even those who aren't. Because you've got to start somewhere and your tools give women that confidence and that clarity of you know how to do it, don't be afraid, just do it. So thank you, for that.

Lee: 31:40

Yeah, oh, you're so welcome and yeah, I think it's. I think the more tools that we, especially as women, can have in our toolbox whether that be erotic massage technique, whether that be communication techniques, you know, whatever it is like all the tools, the skills that us women can have, especially in relationships and in the bedroom, like intimate relationships, I think the better off we are, because for millennia we've been repressed and we've been the air quote I'm air quoting for those of you who can't see, who are listening in your car or whatever. We have been the weaker species. We have been the ones that didn't have the voice. We didn't have the rights, we didn't. We were being told what to do in relationships. This is your duty as a wife the da, da, da, da, da da.

Lee: 32:39

So for us to come, step into our power and go. Oh no, I'm gonna take charge here. Like I'm gonna initiate, I'm gonna reach down your pants, I'm gonna blow your mind, I'm gonna treat you like a king, assuming that he deserves to be treated like a king, you know, like there's a whole. There's a lot of tangents, we could go down there, but assuming you love this guy and you wanna be with him, just the more tools that we can have as women, the more confident we feel, the more empowered we feel, the more self-esteem we have, the more we have to give in a relationship, the more we are feeling our own cup. You know, and not being this damsel in distress and you make me happy or I'm not gonna be happy. No, like we can fill our own cup.

Lee: 33:29

And that actually leads me to something that I hear all the time from women, and I bet some listeners right now who don't know me or my world that much are probably thinking right now is it really my job to satisfy him? And why aren't you teaching the guys how to satisfy us which I do, by the way but like, why women like to turn it around and go, yeah, but he's easy, you know, I can whack him off and he's done, but he's not doing right by me, so isn't this? This sounds like a whole lot of I'm servicing my guy with these erotic massage techniques. What the hell am I getting out of this? Like, why would I even wanna do that when I feel like he's not very good in bed for me?

Lee: 34:25

Like there are women in the membership who've never had an orgasm in their 50s or 60s and they've had sex hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. Never had an orgasm. So you know, what would you say to those women who look at this stuff and go I think I'll pass. I think I need a guy to do to me instead of me due to a guy.

Michelle: 34:53

Yeah, I totally get that and thank you so much for bringing that up, because I was that woman. You know, at the end of my marriage I was bitter and angry and resentful, like I gave him the best years of my life I was. You know, prior to getting married, I was quite sexually promiscuous. I've always been sexually promiscuous. However, I was just bitter and I didn't. You know, I took that 11 years of abstinence and celibacy for my kids, but then when I got back in, I was kind of in that like okay, well, what's in it for me? Like I know what I can do for you, but what are you gonna do for me?

Michelle: 35:36

And when you were telling that story to Lee again, I see pictures because you know, my primary job and training is as a hairstylist when I have a client at the Shem Pooble and I'm massaging their scalp and giving them this wonderful massage and what I'm really doing is connecting with them. I'm connecting with their energy, I'm connecting with their vibration, I'm connecting with their soul, their spirit. I'm connecting with them. They're allowing me. Not only are they allowing me, they're paying me to touch them. And I want them to just relax, because that's their time with me. I have their undivided attention and they're paying me to feel good. Not very many people get paid to feel good legally, I don't know if I didn't know Right. So as a licensed hairdresser, I'm licensed to touch people and I'm allowed to touch them. Not only that, they give me permission.

Michelle: 36:38

So when I get into that mindset and flipping the coin, like okay, this is, you know, I know what I can do for you. What are you gonna do for me? It's not even about that. It's more about connecting with the masculine energy, connecting with the man that's in your life, your husband, your boyfriend, whatever, and knowing that nobody has ever touched him, the way that you are teaching us to touch these men. No one, every single man.

Michelle: 37:13

And let me tell you, I've been like playing around a lot. Every single man I touch is like holy crap, nobody, even less. I was with somebody last night and I was playing with him in the car. I'm gonna get real graphic. He's got an uncircumcised penis Right, and so I'm playing with the foreskin and doing onion ring and like has anybody ever done this for you before? And he's like nobody has ever done this and I'm thinking to myself how sad Now the reciprocation that I receive from giving him those affections and touch of love and compassion. And you know, honoring his maleness was like woo girl, oh yeah he comes around.

Michelle: 38:03

It's almost exactly. It's the competitive nature of the male species is oh, you did that for me, watch what I'm gonna do for you. And that's where it's so true, right Cause the man is like, oh, you gave this a watch what I'm gonna do for you. And I'm like ha ha ha. And of course then my inner males kind of comes on and goes, wait, wait, wait, wait. Do you see what I'm gonna do next? So it just creates this whole synergistic fire of passion and affection and yummy feel. It's just.

Michelle: 38:36

I'm always saddened when I hear women speak in that way about you know, I don't need a man and you know we don't need a man. We have sex toys, we have. You know we can take care of ourselves. However, how does that man feel? I mean, we have to really get in touch with the male species and you know there are assholes out there, but not all men are assholes. There are really good men out there that just need a little guidance and a need a little bit of our feminine essence and goddess energy to draw them out. And they're like men, you know, sirens on the rock that are singing the songs. You touch this penis in a certain way, the way you teach us and they're like ooh, they'll follow us anywhere.

Lee: 39:24

Yes, Right, that's, I never thought about it that way.

Lee: 39:27

It's like we're a siren, only in a good way, like we're not gonna eat them or anything, but yeah, I'm gonna kill them. But it's sort of like when you have, when you turn your hands into magic hands and when you turn your voice into this beautiful, compassionate, you know tool for admiration, for respect, for you know, like when you treat a man like a king, they melt, they, just they want, like a siren, they will follow us anywhere, they will. A guy said to me once when I told him I was going to start teaching women how to do this stuff. He said oh, lee, you show women how to do this stuff. And he knew what I did and because I got like oh, I tell people I got over 69 different ways to touch your guy's privates that in most of the ways, he's never felt before he goes.

Lee: 40:26

You touch a man like this and you teach women how to do this, they will swim oceans for you. They will swim oceans. Yeah, he said that and he was so emphatic and his eyes got really big like oh my God, this, this is a gift to all mankind.

Michelle: 40:45

It is a gift to all mankind. But not only that, it's a gift to all mankind, but as the giver, the power, I mean you know again, again, type A personality. That's a big turn on to me to know that I just have to touch you a certain way with one finger not even my hand, one finger and he's like, oh and so that is a turn on to me, right? Because I know, I mean, and that's part to me, that's part of the dance that we do in the bedroom or the back seat of a car, wherever you are, is the exchange of energies and the dance of I'm gonna give, I'm gonna receive, you're gonna give. I mean, it's just, it's a beautiful thing and it's just slowing down and really connecting with that person, just like I do at the shampoo bowl when I'm massaging their scalp. I'm just doing it in a different place, right?

Lee: 41:42

exactly. You know what that actually reminds me of a story, this whole idea of what you get when you give. So years and years and years ago, when my son was very young he, I don't know, he was probably seven or something I got a knock one day, I don't know a week or two before Christmas, and I opened the door and there was this man outside with two big boxes of goodies. It was like a Christmas hamper kind of box with foods and toys and slippers and like just all sorts of things. And he said your family was nominated to receive this box today. And you know, I'm from the church, da, da, da, da. And someone in the church nominated you and he wouldn't tell me who it was. And I was just like I didn't know this guy from Adam.

Lee: 42:41

And here he's giving me and my son and I'm a single mom, so I'm kind of broke, you know. I mean I'm hand to mouth, like the bills are paid, but I got nothing left after that and so I was just lured to receive these boxes of goodies and I took a couple of things out and I gave them to my son, you know, stuff that he would like, but this woman who was in my yoga class. I used to teach yoga and she had talked about her son and daughter-in-law and her grandson, like he lost his job. They were gonna have a really crappy Christmas. No presence under the tree, like they were really bad off. When I received this, I'm like, oh my God, I wanna give all these goodies, minus a couple, that I gave my son to them, and I was just so hit with this inspiration and I'm getting full body chills just thinking about it now, and this was decades ago.

Michelle: 43:46

Oh no, you know what. I've been. Exactly where you are, I know exactly where you're going. I've been. You're telling my story right now. Keep going, oh my gosh, that's so funny.

Lee: 43:55

And so I showed up and him, his wife and his son were all there and I said you don't know me, but I would just like to give this to you to help you have a good Christmas. And they're, you know, they're totally stunned at first. And then the wife she's taking stuff out and the little boy comes over and he's getting stuff and he's all excited and every I think I'm going to cry telling this story and everybody is just like she's crying. The little boy is just totally over the moon, he's welling up and we're all. I didn't even want to leave because I was just so as good as it felt to receive all those goodies. It felt way better to give them, to just pay them forward and give. And I just sat in my car and I bawled my eyes out for about 10 minutes before I drove away. It was so lovely.

Lee: 44:54

And so the whole, and we've all felt those experiences where that like that family Never talk to me again. They will never, ever repay me for that. Nor did I expect them to repay me like it wasn't a transactional thing other than emotional. Oh my God, I got so much out of it. But to just give unconditionally in a loving way and to see a person's face light up and be totally moved by that act of generosity.

Lee: 45:28

There is nothing on the planet like that. There is nothing short of maybe seeing your newborn baby for the first time. Like maybe second to that, but oh my gosh, it was amazing. So what? I really mean it when I tell women, seriously, you win when you learn how to give in this way in the bedroom, turn your hands into magic hands and just like give in a way that men really appreciate it. You get so much out of it other than confidence, other than self esteem, other than you know that power trip of whoa I did that, you know that feels really good, but it just feels awesome to just be unconditional in your love, because that's really what it is. It's not whacking him off, it's a slow, loving touch.

Lee: 46:17

And and, and you know, loving communication and just it's all from a place of kindness and generosity and love and to give that feels amazing and it always comes back. You know, it's really hard for a man to receive and receive and receive so much respect and admiration and appreciation and love and kindness and all that and not want to reciprocate. Like there are a few men on the planet who will not respond to that.

Michelle: 46:53

There are exceptions, of course. Yeah, no, that the the male energy. When you say it's so difficult for them to receive the true masculine energy is the giver and the provider. And so it is difficult, and I wanted to interject to because I do. In our group, sometimes I notice that there's difficulties with initiating communication and how being part of your tribe makes it so easy for those women who have a difficult time wanting, or, you know, flipping the coin and wanting to get into that, giving mentality rather than you know what. What am I going to get out of this? And if you sign up, you can tell your partner I signed up for this really interesting course that I think you might be excited about. Are you interested in hearing what it is? Yeah, well, sure, I signed up to learn erotic massage and I need to practice. Would you let me? I mean not in itself, and then once you, once you touch them the first time, what's?

Lee: 48:09

that. Yeah. What guys ever going to say no to that when you use those words?

Michelle: 48:16

No guy, no guy, no guy ever going to say no to that. But I mean, when you actually get to practice it for the very first time, that connection that you and I are talking about, that that it's like a spiritual connection. It really is, it transcends all of that. Everything just goes away.

Lee: 48:36

Right and I find that it takes things a little deeper. You know, when it's not just wrote sex, you know, like same old, same old. You know, he, he, he rolls me over, he touches this boob, he grabs my right butt cheek. You know, it's like it's all, it's choreographed. It's the same old, same old thing and it's just a physical release. But you've lost that spark and you've lost that emotion.

Lee: 49:03

This is such a great way, I find, to bring that back. You know, because I I force you to talk during like a fortune to ask those questions and I, I get you to to, you know, open up in the bedroom, just a little bit to mix it up. I think that's that's the difference that it makes. And it could be anything, you know, maybe it's an introduction of toys, it doesn't have to be a rottic massage, it could be anything. But just to mix it up and get the spark back and get some communication going. And all of us women, we've all had conversations in our brain where we're like oh, he always does that thing and I'm, you know how do I get him to. I've told him a couple of times just go a little bit higher and that's where the magic spot is, but it keeps going lower and like. We have this internal conversation going on and yet we don't have the words to actually say what we wish that he he knew Right, not mind readers, ladies.

Michelle: 50:04

There, let me just. Let me just tell you something too Excuse me to interject when I was talking to you about being on the dating profile or dating apps and the men that are attracted, the younger guys. When I ask them what is it about an older woman that you're attracted to? No bullshit, they know exactly what they want. They are really direct in their communication. Boom Women my age. They're wishy washy. They don't know what to tell. They don't know how to direct me to tell. I'm like wow, really, how simple is that?

Lee: 50:35

So yeah, yeah, I'd say men, they really appreciate, generally speaking, they really appreciate directness. They want a roadmap. They want you to tell them what to do, because they want to be successful. They want to take you to the moon. They want to be able to puff out their chest and go yeah, I did that. I did that. Yeah. So they do want us to be able to say, hey, you know, instead of doing this, can we try that? Yes, there's ways to finesse it so that you're not hurting his ego and you're not making him defensive, you're not starting a fight Right, or ways you know, and it's not difficult, but it just takes a little bit of practice.

Michelle: 51:19

And that's the finesse that you teach us. It's a fine tuned finesse and you're so good at teaching that too, lee. You're so cognizant of the women and where they're at in their growth process and each person who talks to you. You break it down specifically for them and it's kind of like you go at your own pace, you know your own comfort level, but you have to break through that comfort level before you can even get to. You know, break through the barrier of that before you can even get to that place of wow, now we're in a sweet spot. You want to get to that sweet spot, yeah.

Lee: 52:04

It's it just, you know it's it just takes trying for the first time, and it's always hard to try anything new the first time. Of course you're going to be nervous. Of course you're going to think, oh my God, I'm going to totally mess this up, I don't know what I'm doing. Of course you've got all that going through your brain. But let me ask you, michelle, so the first time that you tried any of the techniques on a guy, like the massage techniques, what, like, what was your? Were you nervous? Oh, I was totally nervous.

Michelle: 52:35

Really, I was so nervous, yeah, what made you do it? Anyway, I had performance anxiety.

Lee: 52:45

I was pretty confident, right. So for yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. Even confident women are going to be nervous. So all you listeners out there going, oh my God, I could never do that. Well, you know what? Even confident women are nervous. And look at, look at what's happened since, yeah, it's just going, don't ever wait to not be nervous, because that'll never happen. Oh my gosh. So what made you? What made?

Michelle: 53:11

you want to do it. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure that I did the techniques properly and that I didn't forget what I learned and that I think the first I think I shared with you in our we had a one on one session that my first massage was like a two hour massage because I did this whole bot. This guy was like owns a fitness center I mean he's this big bodybuilder guy, right Did this whole body massage and then ended it with the erotic part. It was like a two hour probably, sweating bullets. I was like you know, because I get body massage and I know what it feels like and I know what I like.

Michelle: 53:47

The second one was with my lover and he. We had talked in between. I gave you the pros and cons, or the pros and cons of what had happened, and you redirected me. I was less nervous with him because it was. I went in with the intention. You know, we set the intention before this is what, how long I'm going to take. And you said, you know, when you're at the five minute before you end, let them know I'm coming to an end now. So just letting you know, and so all of that.

Michelle: 54:20

But you created it, so it's so easy that even if I was nervous, I could hear you, I could play you, I could follow your direction in my ear with my AirPods and my cell phone Right, and so I was like I'm going to write it down and practice it out. It was more about it wasn't the fear of touching them and it wasn't the fear of them not feeling the sensations that I knew that they would feel. It was more about the remembering the steps and doing it at a pace that was a pleasurable and enjoyable and not taking too long and not being too fast. It was me getting in my own way, basically, and trying to get it right.

Lee: 55:01

You know I want to do this right.

Michelle: 55:03

It's like going to a wedding. You know the bride's always like, oh my gosh, there's always going to be something that happens, but guess what? Overall, everybody has a great time. So it's kind of like that Like, yeah, he doesn't know if I made a mistake, he doesn't know if I forgot to do one of the techniques, because he doesn't know what the pattern is and he doesn't know the routine and he doesn't know the steps. The only person who knows is me. So that's why I say I got in my own way and it was really more about me, it wasn't about them.

Lee: 55:30

It was about me. Yeah, yeah. And really, when it comes down to it, as soon as you put your hands on a guy's genitals, come on, you've won. Like, you've got right, like they just, they just want you Like you like it.

Michelle: 55:46

So many times I've been on a date Making out with a guy who takes my hand and he puts it on his genital like Please touch me like guys.

Lee: 55:57

Guys identify so heavily with their genitals like that and then to avoid that area. Is they take that personally? It's like you, you don't want to touch them. You know you're touching their soul when you're touching their penis, really, yeah. And it's different for women. We don't necessarily have that going on in our psyche, so we can't relate to that. But for for a lot of guys and I have talked to thousands of them yeah, they really want you to touch it. Yeah. So so, if, if and and I just need to say this to my listeners Never once am I ever gonna tell you do something you don't want to do, like the whole obligatory.

Lee: 56:46

I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna force myself through it and I'm gonna hate it, but I'm gonna do it for you anyway. Cuz Lee Jagger said it, no, I will never, ever tell you to do that. That's a beauty about all of the things that I teach is that it's it's stuff that you're gonna enjoy doing it and and you don't do anything ever in the bedroom that you don't want to do and that that's why I start things really slow and really easy, to just let women know that you know what you can do this. This isn't rocket science, oh my gosh, it's so darn easy. And and by making it easy it gets them to just try.

Lee: 57:29

Because then when they try and they get a major positive response from their guy in the bed and out like, oh, now he wants to make me dinner tonight and he never makes me dinner. Like that feels good to have that, that, that power. You're wielding a power. You know you got a magic wand in your hand and you're like, okay, I'm gonna have my guy treat me like I've got us after this. That feels really good. And then they want to do it. Then it is enjoyable, then it builds this bond and more communication and trust and Things get juicy in the bedroom. But to start, yeah, you're nervous.

Michelle: 58:08

Yeah, I was nervous and I'm I consider myself a pretty sexually confident woman and I was nervous, but I did it anyway and I'm glad I did and I'm glad I continue to Broaden my spectrum of tools by staying in, involved with you in the group. So, yeah, it's, it's awesome, it's fun, it's it's like the best thing that ever happened to me.

Lee: 58:33

Oh my gosh. Well, it's so much fun having you in the group because you have, you always have something amazing to say, and and and. For our listeners who don't know when I say the group, like, I have a coat, like a members monthly membership program, and so every week we get together and over zoom and we and people have questions and I have answers and other women have answers, and I am not the only Person talking in the group, like, like Michelle, you come out all the time and have great advice. Thank you, because you I mean you're, you're a relationship coach, you're You've got a lot of information within you already and I just love how you share that with the group and help the other ladies and rally them on. And and that woman from From Copenhagen, she, she could feel Supported, she really she really felt that and you had a lot to do with that. So thank you so much for thank you. Queens, help Queens, right, we help Queens. That's right. Yeah, we, we fix, we fix each other's crowns.

Michelle: 59:40

Yeah, there's a sisterhood and and you know, I've been around women who they they act or pretend that they were a sisterhood, but I, you know, you know, you feel it in your heart, your instincts kick in and go. I'm not really sure, but you're a sisterhood. You're my sister from another mister oh.

Lee: 1:00:06

I love that. Yeah, it's Wednesdays are my favorite day of the week because I get to to hang out with all you ladies.

Michelle: 1:00:13

You always say that and I know exactly it's true, right, it's my favorite day of the week too. You know, I'm running late. I'm like I gotta get on, I gotta get on.

Lee: 1:00:22

Yeah, it's just I don't know. It's happy hour with the girls and all my girls get me and they they let me talk about sex and and and I let them talk about say like, where can you go right? How? These conversations really hard and that's why I wanted to do this podcast is to inspire women to be able to Get help, to be able to listen to Education, to other women's perspectives on what they're going through and how they dealt with it, to overcome whatever Problem was going on, and to just know that we can have these conversations Like if we don't talk about it, it ain't getting better and it can always get better.

Lee: 1:01:08

I love it when someone takes a chance. It was someone who's got a great relationship. They love their guy like nothing's wrong, everything's great. They consider themselves really lucky and and great sex life. They have sex all the time they're they're like Affectionate with each other in and out of the bedroom, great communication, like they're doing awesome. And Yet they come into my world and they learn a few more things and they realize, oh, you mean, it could even get better. I didn't even know like it's. It's so satisfying to help someone whose marriage is on the rocks and and help them get to the other side where they're now happily, happily married to that same person. That's fun too, but it blows me away when a woman who has no problems in the bedroom joins my world, rock the bedroom and and has the. I guess they got to be learners like you, right.

Lee: 1:02:14

Yeah, they're just they get, it can always get better.

Michelle: 1:02:18

Yeah, it can always get better.

Lee: 1:02:20

I used to tell myself that all the time when I was Either breaking up with a guy or a guy was great. More often, when a guy was breaking up with me when I was much younger and Convincing myself, okay, he was really great, and, oh my god, I just lost that guy and the world is over. And Eventually I came to realize you know what I? I said that about the last guy and this guy. He was better than the last guy and I never thought I could get anything better, but I got better. So this is a slightly different context, but but it can always get better and it has, at least in in my world. Life just keeps getting better and better and better. Special relationships, because I keep knowing more and more and more. You know older and wiser, kind of thing so.

Lee: 1:03:11

Right and we learned to tolerate less crap. I think and Ask for what we want older women.

Michelle: 1:03:18

I think older women. Yeah, I, I tell people. I mean, I'm in the fourth quarter of my life, 60 to 80. Fourth quarter is when you go for the win. Right, I got. I still got some mojo left in me. I'm going for it, I'm playing, I'm having fun, I'm living my best life. And if you would have told me at the end of my divorce that I would be in this place today, I would have told you that you were full of crap. Now there's no way and I'm like, and you're a big part of that, lee. So thank you so much. Oh, I'm so glad to have a part in that.

Michelle: 1:03:50

Oh, you're a big part, you're a big part.

Lee: 1:03:53

Oh, thank you. I love having you in my world. I really, really appreciate you being here today. Yeah, this has been so enjoyable. I want to give you an opportunity to let listeners know how they can Find you out in the world, because you have amazing perspectives on relationship, on communication, and and I let I almost feel like you're my partner in my program because you always pipe up with some really great things to talk about, and Recently you said, yeah, actually I'm a relationship. What do you call yourself?

Michelle: 1:04:27

Well, so here's the thing I'm in the midst of transitioning out of being a hairstylist and into being more of a coach for women, a relationship coach, and I was sharing with you and the group not too long ago that it was something I was getting ready to share, something that I had learned, and I said I've never shared this with you and Lee or the girls that I'm a relationship coach. And you said, oh, that doesn't surprise me. And my daughter was in the room and she walked by and she got these big saucer eyes and looked at me like whoa. And at the end of the call she looked at me and she goes you're owning it. And I'm like, yeah, I'm owning it.

Michelle: 1:05:08

I'm called Like you fail, called to help women feel more secure and empowered and who they are. My, my Coaching business will be called the goddess glow up. I don't have any Social media setup. I'm like, right in the infantile stages of it all. I do have an Instagram account for my hair business, which is called hair guru for you and you can put that in the show notes or whatever.

Lee: 1:05:38

I'll put that in the show notes. And is that the number four, or?

Michelle: 1:05:41

Number four yeah okay.

Michelle: 1:05:43

Good Number four for you, mm-hmm. So yeah, it's all. I'm all in the beginning stages and I'm Going through a program right now to get certified as a life coach, but I'm going to be able to apply my programming and incorporate all of that, so I'm excited about it. The girls that I have now that I coach and mentor are just from word of mouth Hair dressers and bartenders are like therapists without a degree. Right Added to the fact that's got like years of Counseling and therapy myself, and then all the programs that I've been involved with and all of my own personal Experiences, and then the tools and the and the things that I've learned from you. I mean it just. Every time it just goes to a different level, and you know you shared your story about being blessed to be a blessing, and I feel exactly the same way that I have Calling to help women who feel uncomfortable about their sexuality, about their inner goddess, just go, grow and glow, girl. Just go and live it.

Lee: 1:06:47

So yeah, yes and as of this recording. You don't have stuff set up. But, dear listener, go, because you probably find finder by the time this comes out, or at least you know contact. Find her on on Instagram, that way, when she does make the announcement that boom doors are open, I'm open for business. You can check her out. Thank you, yeah, because, yeah, you, you bring so much value to my group that, yeah, I, I would highly recommend anyone check your stuff out, because you, yeah, you've been around the block many times and Thank you, lee, I have a lot to pass on, so.

Lee: 1:07:26

I appreciate you being in my world. My gosh and I learn from you all the time.

Michelle: 1:07:30

I learn from you all the time too. What the heck Right?

Lee: 1:07:34

Yeah, if you could do it on your own, you'd have already done it exactly. We need others to, to teach us, to remind us. You know all the things to support us. So thank you for being one of those women who are feeling called to support other women I'm, or maybe other people do you? Do you work with men and women, or just women?

Michelle: 1:07:56

primarily women, but I'm open to working with men. I mean, I've looked at a profile and it's like, you know, I could really make your profile stand out. But you know, unless a man asks for advice, I don't give it. So but yeah, I'm open to working with men too. For sure, I think that there are a lot of men who Are kind of lost and confused and not really sure how to navigate the waters to find a woman. So yeah, I'm open to that.

Lee: 1:08:26

We don't know how to talk to men. Men don't know how to talk to us.

Michelle: 1:08:29

Oh, I know, and it's so easy, it's so easy yeah.

Lee: 1:08:33

Yeah, they just don't have those skills, that's all. But hey, they can be learned. They can all be learned. That's what we're all about, yeah, so thank you for being a teacher. Appreciate you so much. Thank you for being my teacher. Oh, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for being on here with us and really exemplifying what passionate and playful is all about. That's my motto with rock. The bedroom is Be passionate, be playful, and you definitely are both of those.

Michelle: 1:09:04

Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you so much, Li. I'm really appreciative to you for that. Thank you for asking me to be your guest today. I'm grateful.

Lee: 1:09:13

Did you know that nine out of ten women don't feel confident touching their man's privates with their hands? I believe being confident in the bedroom means unlearning everything that we've been taught our entire lives About what it really means to have a great sex life and a happy relationship, which is why I created an online video training called drive him wild. I want to show you how to become the confident woman that you were meant to be, so you can have a passionate and playful connection with your guy. And the best part is this training is yours, absolutely free To dive in. Just go to rock the bedroom calm, and we can get started right now.