Ep. 17: Surrogate Partner (Part 2), with Michelle Renee

What if true sexual desire stems not from physical intimacy but from emotional safety and connection? My discussion with Michelle Renee, surrogate partner and professional cuddler, takes you through the critical steps of cultivating internal safety by setting boundaries and trusting your instincts. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of intimacy, growth, and the power of touch.

To contact Michelle:
MeetMichelleRenee.com
IntimacyLabPodcast.com
HumanConnectionLab.com
SoftCockWeek.com

Michelle's social media:
https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee

https://www.facebook.com/cuddlemichellerenee

https://www.tiktok.com/@meetmichellerenee

https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetmichellerenee

https://www.youtube.com/meetmichellerenee

https://x.com/thetrojankitten

Resources mentioned in this and the previous episode:

Client Judy episode on The Intimacy Lab: https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/episode/13 or https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/client-judy/id1707239759?i=1000658140286

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7JnlplBWM03Z2XVRzSHsKT?si=tLR4FOBWTMO-P_eCY48VHg

Train as a pro cuddler:
Cuddlist.com
To get a 10% discount on Cuddlist training: https://cuddlist.podia.com/cuddle-therapy-basic-training/6dnxo?coupon=REFERRAL
CuddleSanctuary.com

Train as a surrogate partner:
SurrogatePartnerCollective.org to train as a surrogate partner

Learn more about surrogate partner therapy as a client:
https://www.embracespt.org/offeringsclients

Betty Dodson https://www.dodsonandross.com/about

The Cost of Duty Sex: Consenting to Unwanted Sex on Sex Therapy 101 with Cami Hurst (on Apple):  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sex-therapy-101-with-cami-hurst/id1487731899?i=1000608645066
(On Spotify):  https://open.spotify.com/episode/7pTRXOEHvH6pedC5cCEQ06?si=OKhLagp7Q5qnxOfyGB9kXw

Here's your first step in spicing up your sex life--get Lee's free erotic massage technique: rockthebedroom.com/

For new erotic massage techniques every month: rockthebedroom.com/membership

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:45

If you didn't listen to the last episode, I highly recommend that you go do that first before listening to this episode or watching, if you're catching this on YouTube. The last episode is actually part one of this conversation and this episode is part two and just a heads up. I wanted to give you a content warning. My guest and I talk about sexual trauma, which might be triggering for some audiences who've experienced sexual trauma, so please listen at your own discretion. Okay, let's dive into part two.

Speaker 1: 1:20

For my birthday several years ago, I met a guy at a puja it's like a Tantra event for those listeners who don't know and I was attracted to him and it was my birthday the following week and I asked him if he would come, like I wanted him to be my birthday gift to me, and what ended up happening was he came to me, me and what ended up happening was he came to me and we had, I don't know, like a five hour cuddle session in the you know break up with lunch and stuff, but we just spent the whole time cuddling. I've never been more turned on in my entire life, including, you know, like ultimate fantasy dreams. This was the most amazing connective, prolonged turn on and feeling cherished state I had ever been in. I couldn't have even imagined this. We didn't even kiss, it was just like a non-sexual cuddling touching. Oh my God, it was profound, like game changing it's amazing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:47

So that reminds me. Sometimes I have people come to me they're like I'm looking for a sex coach Cause I'll say, like so how did you find me? What were you Googling? I want to have an idea of what you're looking for, right. And I had a client recently that was like I Googled sex coach and I was like, okay, well, you need to know what my boundaries are around that Cause I was a hands on Like. Some people are just hands on learners, right, and I'm totally. That was totally my thing for a while. I have this poster in my office that talks about the order of relationships in like, like nature versus our culture, right, and in nature, the number one thing that has to happen is safety Right.

Speaker 2: 3:33

Right. And then proximity, like if two animals know that they can be safe like two lions, they're going to growl at each other and figure out are you going to kill me, right? Once they establish they're not going to kill each other, then they can have closer proximity to each other and then touch and each other. And then touch and sex happens, and then bonding and love happens. In our culture we do it backwards.

Speaker 1: 3:56

Right.

Speaker 2: 3:57

We bond to a person we don't even know yet. We make up a story about them, of how much we love them and they're going to be the perfect person for us. We have the sex and then we're like why don't we feel safe and close in this relationship? Cause we've done it fucking backwards, right.

Speaker 1: 4:12

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 4:14

So when I have somebody cuddling with me. So this client comes, he goes, I'm going to try cuddling. I said great. I said we can talk about sex while we cuddle. Like I can totally do that as long as it's not arousing for you and you're pursuing that. If you're not trying to have this turn into something, we pursuing that, if you're not trying to have this turn into something, we can be totally good with this. Like I can talk about sex all day. Again, I'm asexual, like I get to sex, but it's a very different path than most people, right? So he comes in. We've had, we have this established relationship. We've cuddled together, you know, three or four times at this point and he feels very safe to me. He feels he feels very safe with, like he's feeling safety for me. We're having this emotional intimacy and I said you are, can you see how you're this close to having sex? All it takes is us taking our clothes off and the thing happens right now because we've we've established this vulnerability together.

Speaker 1: 5:10

Right.

Speaker 2: 5:10

That moving forward isn't as big a barrier as people think.

Speaker 1: 5:15

Mm-hmm, oh my gosh. If we could all just start with the safety first, that would avoid so many issues and breakups. Because the thing is, we probably wouldn't get together with that person in the first place if we couldn't establish the safety. You know, yeah, oh my gosh, that would. That would be a game changer. And how do we do that?

Speaker 2: 5:41

Right Great question. It's a combination of what do you need to feel safety in yourself? How do you convince yourself that you are safe? It is like having a history of listening to yourself. Right? We have our gut feeling. If we are ignoring that gut feeling, we do not have internal safety. I don't believe that is the case. Right? I'm constantly teaching people to find their instinct.

Speaker 1: 6:05

What is your?

Speaker 2: 6:06

instinct, listen to it, trust it, build a rapport with yourself. That I know for myself. When I have a a problem I'm trying to solve, there is a moment when I find the right combination of puzzle pieces where everything in my body calms down. I go from like a beehive nest feeling inside to this like warm blanket right I know that about. It's taken years of re reestablishing that post marriage right when that was worked out of me. I have it back. So so I have that internal safety. Now how will I feel safe with you? I see this on dating groups on Facebook a lot where if I could scream to the top of my lungs it would be set a boundary early and see how they respond.

Speaker 1: 6:54

Oh good, litmus test.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Yeah, say no to something and see what their response is, because if you cannot say no to something with a person, you can't really say yes. Right, and they can't ever trust your yes that it's actually, but you can't trust them to hear your no, right, it's a, it's, it's, it's a loop that goes round and round, right? So, like that's figuring out what you need and everybody's going to be different.

Speaker 1: 7:22

Right.

Speaker 2: 7:22

Everybody's needs are different. I, I, I say that my work is really helping people create their owner's manual. Like what do you need? How do you work, cause we're all different. Like I'm a neurodivergent person, right, I, I, I have all sorts of things I'm learning about myself all the time, how my brain works, especially around sex. Right, it's such a fascinating place. This, this between my ears spaces, like I think people are like, wow, the things that you figure out. Michelle, like I'm like, let me tell you what I learned about myself this week. Right, it's so freaking cool. Do you know that, in my owner's manual, to get to sexual desire, so, since I'm a responsive desire person, which means that I don't get hit with a bolt of lightning, of horniness person, which means that I don't get hit with a bolt of lightning of horniness.

Speaker 2: 8:18

I have to get aroused before desire shows up. So that means a lot of times I'm in sexual spaces when I'm not turned on yet, but I'm hoping to get there, right? So my, my recipe looks like Michelle and her husband. We get naked and we cuddle and we talk and connect and then I do something to him that I know will elicit a response. He, he, might moan a little bit. That makes me turned on. And then sexual desire shows up.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Right.

Speaker 2: 8:44

So the other day I come home from the beach with him and he says I bet your skin's really dry. I should totally put oil on you. You probably need a massage. And I'm like uh-huh, I know where this is going, right. So I'm, I'm fun and we'll play along, even though I don't have the sexual desire thing showing up so instantly like he does. And so he's massaging me and I can tell he's getting turned on and I'm laying on my stomach and he's rubbing on my back and I can feel things are happening Right and I'm not matching his sexual energy, which is not uncommon, right. What was unusual is I was noticing, michelle, you're getting farther from arousal, not closer to arousal.

Speaker 1: 9:25

Was that because you were feeling like this might be a conditional touch, like I'm doing this to turn her on?

Speaker 2: 9:33

No, because we're used to that kind of. We know what the recipe, what the equation is, Got it Okay. What I figured out is the difference is that I'm in control most of the time. I'm a top in the kink and BDSM world. I'm the one doing the thing to him. And in this case, I was receiving, and it took me back to that old shut down place from my marriage, my first marriage.

Speaker 1: 10:04

Oh yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Most women are the receivers, like sex is something that's done to us, yeah, and there's a lot of yeah like uh conditioning built up around that so, breaking that apart and realizing that I need to feel like I'm the one in the pursuer role, I'm the one in control, right, I'm the one telling him what's going to happen next, that toppy dummy kind of. You know that I'm an. I'm a power. You know I'm a powerful woman.

Speaker 2: 10:37

I will tell you what to do kind of stuff that I need that when I don't have a match of sexual energy, that it doesn't feel bad to me to be in a mismatched place at that point. But when I'm in a receiving role in that mismatches, there I just go into shutdown.

Speaker 1: 11:00

Wow, that's good.

Speaker 2: 11:01

That's good I mean good, good awareness to know that, yeah, like wow, again, I'm my own case study. It's just fascinating the stuff I learn about myself every day, even though, like, I feel like when does, like I feel it feels weird to be coming on to 50 and in still being, like it's a brand new world out there of understanding myself.

Speaker 1: 11:23

Yeah, I think I mean it's super cool to hear that you are so self-aware but also self-curious constantly. That's awesome. And I find that the more we learn really about anything, the more we realize we don't know. There's so much more. It's just a teaspoon of that mountain of stuff to know, so I don't think we ever get finished figuring ourselves out.

Speaker 2: 11:51

I don't want to like. I think that's the whole. Like. Enjoyment of life is the, the exploration of that, I think there I'm bisexual. I don't think about sex all the time I have to go through this process of getting to desire. I want to want sex. If you don't want to want sex, that's okay.

Speaker 1: 12:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:26

Right but if you do want to want sex. You can figure out what that recipe is that works for you. Yeah, it doesn't have to be off the table. You just to figure out what it is that works for you.

Speaker 1: 12:38

Right, exactly, I think my audience is typically um, or the, I should say. I mean, I I don't really know who listens to this podcast. I'm assuming it's a lot of women. But the women who tend to come into my program I do know who they are and they are much like you actually in that they want to want, they want to be able to turn their guy on and they want to feel like powerful and confident in the bedroom, like they. They've lost that confidence. They sex has been done to them and it hasn't been all that satisfying.

Speaker 1: 13:22

And now they want to kind of be in a a more powerful role and and maybe they found, you know, they, they've got, they either got a divorce or their husband died or whatever of a long, long-term relationship and now they're in a new relationship. They're like, oh my God, I didn't think I'd ever get turned on, because I haven't been turned on in 25 years, and so that now they're feeling like, ooh, I, I'm wanting to pursue that and oh my gosh, I have no skills, I cause I, I didn't learn anything in my previous marriage. So those are the women who who tend to gravitate towards my stuff, cause it's all about putting you in the driver's seat and, like you said, like being the doer, like turning him on, turns you on and gives you that, that pleasure or that, um, uh, that intrinsic reward. You know, yeah, but um so wow, you and me together is kind of a we're a power couple in the business world.

Speaker 2: 14:28

We, we are coming at the same thing from lots of different directions.

Speaker 1: 14:31

Yeah, from different directions. So, okay, my question for you is so you've had all of this personal growth through all the stuff that you've been through and the stuff that you've learned from all these different educators and mentors, what made you want to do this work Like, instead of just taking it as okay, I learned, I'm learning all about myself and I'm healing my own world what makes you want to heal other people's world?

Speaker 2: 15:02

So so the person that walked me out of my divorce, like walked me through my divorce, was Betty Dotson.

Speaker 1: 15:10

So she's, amazing.

Speaker 2: 15:12

Old sex educator. When I met her she was 85. She talked like a sailor. I wanted to be her. I was like God if I could be 85 and like that. Like she just she didn't give a fuck about anything. Like she, just she. She walked through her own world and her big thing was teaching women masturbation so they could be sexually liberated. Her thing that I learned most from her was that I was in charge of my own orgasm. It was nobody else's responsibility.

Speaker 2: 15:42

A man doesn't give me my orgasm. He can participate in it. But I need to know what works for me. I need to have a good relationship with my body, with my vulva. I need to look at it. I need to know what works for me. I need to have a good relationship with my body, with my vulva. I need to look at it. I need to love her. I need to give her attention. Right, I need to figure out how she works.

Speaker 2: 16:00

And I wasn't. I wasn't masturbating. I remember the first time I bought a vibrator I was like 25. And I never. I figured out through Betty and this is not a goal everyone has to have. Boy, I was very proud of myself when I got myself off without a vibrator for the first time. I was 38 years old and I called all my friends. It was like I can now officially live on a deserted island and I will be okay, right, I can do it all by myself. I don't even need a battery. Right, like that was a big deal to me. But when I was married the first time, he would booby trap my vibrators, make sure that I was saving all my sex for him, Like why would you masturbate when you could have sex with me Right.

Speaker 1: 16:39

And so, if I, did masturbate.

Speaker 2: 16:41

it was out of, like this weird parent child relationship that we had, Right. So it was like, yeah, you're going to tell me what to do, do you know? And then he would have it booby trapped and he would know like string and tape and different things he would know, that I pulled it out of the drawer hurt his little ego yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:57

so um, that summer after we split now I'm gonna say he decided we were in like a kind of a triad poly situation and he fell in, fell in love with her and wanted to be with her. And I understand it in retrospect that of course we didn't have that. We were 20 years into our relationship and we just were kind of codependent and there wasn't a lot of love there. It was just a lot of relying on each other for a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2: 17:26

And so it makes sense to me now. She could orgasm so easily and I was so envious. So when Betty Dodson hit my purview, it was right before our marriage ended. I took in every bit of content that she had available and I went to her workshop that fall. It was kind of my big fuck you trip to my marriage. It was like I'm going to New York City and I'm going to masturbate with an 85 year old. It's going to be fantastic and it was fantastic. But I had done so much work before I got to that space. I had already worked through. I was sending. I was sending pussy pictures to people. I would never do that.

Speaker 2: 18:03

I was so in love with myself Like I was before that I was like, why would you want to? Like I just don't understand. Like oral sex was hard for me because who would want to go there? Like I just didn't have a good image of myself and so I'd worked through a whole bunch of stuff before I even got to a workshop. So I'm sitting in this workshop and I'm thinking, god, I want to do this, I want to help people change their lives Right, and that's when I decided I was a stay at home mom. I didn't have a career. As the marriage ended, I I didn't know what I was going to do next. We didn't have a ton of money, so it wasn't like I was planning to live off of alimony and I was figuring out who. Who does Michelle want to be when she grows up, and I wanted to be like Betty Dodson, and so, um, I made up my mind. I was to do hands-on sex ed, and that's how I ended up here.

Speaker 1: 18:50

Wow.

Speaker 2: 18:53

That's super cool. That's the short version.

Speaker 1: 18:54

I love your, fuck you, trip. That's so good. I'm going to go masturbate with an 85-year-old. Literally, that's my favorite line of this whole episode.

Speaker 2: 19:04

Yeah, how inspiring to lay on the floor next to an 85-year year old woman who's multi-orgasmic at 85 years old, Like she's the most beautiful human being, Like I, you know. I'm so glad that I got to know her even in just you know. I knew her a lot from the internet, but to really get to be in space with her was such a gift.

Speaker 1: 19:27

I just can't even imagine she. I never met her in person, but her work is just stellar, like it's notorious yeah, it's, it's jaw droppingly eyeopening. So good for anyone who has not heard of Betty Dodson you, you gotta look her up. She's just anything that you find by her will change your life.

Speaker 2: 19:55

She lived to 92.

Speaker 1: 19:58

92.

Speaker 2: 19:58

She lived to 92 years old and died during COVID, which I think how sad that she was by herself.

Speaker 2: 20:04

You know she was such a powerhouse of a person, so yeah, she lives forever in our hearts, oh for sure, and her work is legacy, yeah, so I mean, you know she created people like you and me who are now carrying on her work, so yeah, it's a sisterhood that I love when I run into facilitators for body sex because that's the name of her workshop and I just met one last week I was at the sex therapy a sect is a sex therapy and sex educator organization certification organization and I was just at their their annual conference and somebody introduced themselves to me as a body sex facilitator and I'm just like I have to. I have to make a personal connection with you because the special club I'm not a facilitator and I'm just like I have to. I have to make a personal connection with you because it's a special club. I'm not a facilitator for body sex but man did it, it just really it brought me here, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 20:57

That's awesome. I want to backtrack just a little bit. Before you were talking about, you had mentioned the word non-sexual. Let's talk about the words non-sexual. Let's talk about the words non-sexual and platonic, like what's the difference between those two words and which one? Would you categorize what you do?

Speaker 2: 21:21

what a, what a a hard question to answer. I'm going to do my best to kind of workshop this out with you because, okay, yeah, I mean I say we use the word platonic for a few reasons.

Speaker 1: 21:36

Okay, cause I say like interchangeably non-sexual and platonic. I hear them. Is there a difference?

Speaker 2: 21:44

I think it depends. Part of why we use platonic and cuttlest is because when SESTA-FOSTA passed, which was a real like really going after the sex work industry we had to be really careful with the crawlers, the Google crawlers out there. The word non-sexual has the word sex in it.

Speaker 1: 22:09

Right.

Speaker 2: 22:10

And so we were on the back end of Cuddlist. I was operations manager at the time. We were running through and trying to clean up everybody's profiles to try to keep our website up.

Speaker 1: 22:20

Right.

Speaker 2: 22:30

There was this mass fire of fear that was running through the touch world.

Speaker 2: 22:34

How do we keep our non-sexual service available, right? So I think of I think I do both kinds of work when I really try to break them down. To me, platonic means I'm coming in with this like very friendly energy, right, we're not just avoiding arousal or chase, we're not chasing arousal, but really we're in this friend space of I want connection and intimacy with you but I'm not pursuing sex with you, right. Right, non-sexual might be more like. We might wish it was an option. Maybe it's that cuddling with the guy at the conference there was sexual energy between us but we didn't pursue it. But it was there in the space.

Speaker 1: 23:23

Right, right.

Speaker 2: 23:25

So we're holding to that limit that's kind of how I think about it when I break it down is that we're going to hold to a limit, and this makes so much sense as I'm having this like in real time, aha, like retrospective. When I first started in cuddling it was brand new to the world, and I was. We were advertising on Craigslist of all places, right, and I had this kind of mentality that Craigslist of all places, right, and I had this kind of mentality that everyone should get to experience cuddling, and so I give pretty much anyone a chance to have one session and I left with a lot of ick, right. I left with a lot of primary all men. I didn't have a female client for years of this. Are you sure we can't go farther? I've never cuddled with someone outside of sex, right. A lot of people that's part of their pillow talk post sex time. Um, that was non-sexual, right. I joked that I was a professional tease and denial, right?

Speaker 2: 24:26

We were walking up to that edge, but staying within the code of conduct unless I, unless we, you know, unless I was doing more. What this is, how I got into surrogate partner therapy was that sometimes clients would say I really trust you. I'm having this issue. Would you be willing to help me with it?

Speaker 2: 24:41

Right, right, so it was it was the off-roading that brought me into surrogate partner therapy because of what I found was there's a lot of satisfaction in helping a client change their quality of life right, and so I was like fuck the rules right, I'm a rule breaker. I felt it was worth it. I was always like if I make this decision, it has to be something that I'm willing to to stand behind if I get called on it Right and I have gotten called on it before inside of Cuddlist. Before Cuddlist, cuddlist went through a period of time where they were a little it rightfully so very scared of being aligned with sex work Because, again, like I just said, we were worried about losing our website.

Speaker 1: 25:28

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:29

But the reality is is some of our best cuddlers happen to also be sex workers, right, in some form of fashion, whether they're sexological body workers or they're doing things in the in the sexual space. Eventually, cuddlist, thankfully was like hey. So if you're going to do any other modality, we're not calling out sex work. But if you've got a client that wants your massage therapy services, if you have a client that wants your housekeeping services, if you have anything that's happening outside of Cuddlist and the code of conduct, we need you to follow this like do some kind of written agreement and have a conversation about shifting modalities so that catalyst hands are clean, right, like they need to not be tied into all of this, or we're going to.

Speaker 2: 26:20

We have to protect this company, right? We're doing freaking amazing work. The people that come through training. You've learned it, I've learned it. There's so much richness there. Our clients are really benefiting from this. We need to stay around we're. We're really changing the world in a really interesting way. Like to be a woman and get paid for my emotional labor.

Speaker 2: 26:42

That was huge, yeah, that's big it's, it's big right so. So Cuddlist has come a long ways in that and, like um, sex work is important. We really so to fast forward, I'm now the director of training at Cuddlist. Madeline retired and she asked me if I would take her role as director of training. What a huge, fricking honor, freaking honor. Yeah, and in the scope of the history of cuddlist, which started in 2015, I'm an out sex worker in a leadership role right at this platonic company and we're not.

Speaker 2: 27:26

I don't know who's being confused. If who's confused by that, but I'm not confused by it. My, my, the co-owners of cuddles are not confused by it. Right, we're going to normalize these different ways that people um find support, right?

Speaker 1: 27:44

right, yeah, oh, I do love that. I did not know that that you were, uh, your new title in cutlets. I had no idea about it.

Speaker 1: 27:56

It's almost a year, but yeah, like I don't, you know, I wear so many hats, lee, it's hard to do my intro oh my gosh, when I was reading your website and all your certifications and the education, I'm like, oh my God, I just like where do I even start? There's just, you have so much training and you have so many roles that in this whole arena, this industry, it's uh, it's astounding.

Speaker 2: 28:26

But I also have to like go okay, who's my audience right now? What did they need to know about me? Right, Right. Exactly I keep a post-it note on my computer for, like Leah's, part of my intimacy professionals group which we get together online, right and um, I have a list because I forget the things that I'm connected to. You know it's it's. Get the things that I'm connected to.

Speaker 1: 28:51

You know it's, it's, it's a blessing and a curse, right, it's like true, but it, it, um, it backs up your credibility, like you have so much experience in, uh, in many facets of this whole industry that I think that's, that's just wisdom, that's knowledge, that's experience that ripples into other areas. So that's what makes you so awesome.

Speaker 2: 29:16

That's 10 years post-divorce. I've been liberated for 10 years. I started from absolutely nothing. It is not too late to start over at 40. I was 38. I started with Cuddlist right after I turned 40. So all of this, everything in my professional life, really started at 40. And I'm at the top of my industry. It's freaking amazing. I pinch myself all the time. I used to think like people would ask me what's your five-year goal? And I'm like I just want some consistent clients that help me pay my rent.

Speaker 2: 29:50

And now it's like no, how can we normalize working in triadic model for all sorts of industries? Right, there's so many supplemental modalities that would really benefit and add to talk therapy, right? So you're going to see me at all these conferences shaking hand. Well, I'm hugging people. Let's be real. Hugging people and introducing them to the power of bringing touch, because talk therapists can't touch their clients as part of their licensure right, you don't have to touch them. You can bring in another professional that you get to watch that relationship. It's so much more safe than sending your client out to to find these things on their own and not having kind of some people overseeing checks and balances.

Speaker 1: 30:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:43

Like that's one of my real passions, is like really spreading the word of what is possible. God, if I could scream the top of the rooftops. It's like sexual assault recovery. Right, you can't talk all of that out.

Speaker 1: 30:56

We've got to write some new stories in the body 100%, and touch is so healing and sexual assault or abuse is touch related. So you've got to. You can't just talk this out, you have to touch it out as well. Yeah, it's so, so important and your role in healing all of that is is amazing.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:29

It's amazing.

Speaker 2: 31:30

We're working on our next training at Cuddlist Um, we have our basic training Um, but for people that have been in the work for a little bit and got some experience and they're like, okay, I'm ready to take it to the next level, cause I firmly believe that as I worked on myself, the level of depth of client went up Right. So I get to do the really hard shit and I love it, right. But that's not where you start normally as a catalyst, right. So we have a we are working on a new training um to make to take like starter catalyst, once they've got some experience, into more like clinical therapeutic working with, directly with therapists, so like platonic surrogate partner therapy, right, where the limits are there, right, right.

Speaker 1: 32:13

What I love.

Speaker 2: 32:14

I got to say this. I know we're going to wrap probably soon Putting this limit on my work. What I've noticed is that I can get deeper with my clients emotionally and if sex was part of the work I wouldn't be able to do that because it would feel more muddy, it would be more confusing. I often refer my clients out for the sexual components if that's needed in the work. I have my referral network. But for us to keep our relationship really clean and have depth and not muddy it with the sexual feelings that come up with, that has been the sweetest part of my work. It's like just tears that happen in my office, the reparenting that's happening in my office, like I don't want to mix that with the sex stuff.

Speaker 1: 33:14

Yeah, keeping it cleaner, I get that. I totally get that.

Speaker 2: 33:19

There are people that will do the sex stuff. I don't have to do it, yeah Right, it doesn't have to be. I don't have to be a one man band, and I have to be reminded of that sometime because of the helper in me says, oh my gosh, I want this person to have a safe experience. I could do this and my, my colleagues go. Michelle, you don't have to. There are other people that are happy to do that role and they are safe too.

Speaker 1: 33:41

Yeah yeah, you don't need to wear all the hats. I don't all the time I have enough hats?

Speaker 2: 33:47

Yeah, the hats, I don't all the time. I have enough hats? Yeah, I have a big head. They don't fit well.

Speaker 1: 33:59

You don't need more. Oh my gosh, yeah, um, okay, I I have a question for you here. So, as a sex coach for women, I know that there are so many couples out there who are struggling in long-term relationships. What do you think is missing in those relationships in your opinion?

Speaker 2: 34:18

I mean, I, it's hard to to to put everybody under one thing, right, my gut, my gut is vulnerability. That's what my gut says, cause, like, the feedback I get is why, michelle, you're such a direct communicator and you're so open. Right, I know how to talk about difficult stuff and I teach people how to have difficult conversations, so there's probably something not being said in those relationships and it creates a wall, right, yeah, that's my. If I could say one thing to sprinkle on everything would be vulnerability.

Speaker 1: 34:50

Yeah, and I would. I'd have to agree with that because, going back to the safety thing, like people aren't talking because they don't feel safe to there's there there's a fear of backlash, there's a fear of offending their partner, there's a fear of some, some type of negative consequence, and how do you make your partner feel safe enough to open up to you and how do you make yourself feel safe enough to open up to your partner? So, um, yeah, I think all of that is intertwined for sure, and without communication, you just just break up now like it's gonna happen or, or you're gonna get miserable farther and farther apart.

Speaker 2: 35:32

Yeah, I just, I just, yeah, I talk to each other.

Speaker 1: 35:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:38

I love. Um, I'll promote these cards that I use on my podcast all the time that we're not really stranger cards. They have so many different decks of them, but they have, like, even a triple X deck to talk about sex, right, some people need a conversation starter of reason to have these deeper conversations. I had a client that used to, at the start of every session, let's play some cards because he loved the vulnerability. He didn't know how to initiate it, right.

Speaker 1: 36:09

And I don't have the words. We don't know, we're not taught that stuff Typically.

Speaker 2: 36:14

No, we don't know how to start it.

Speaker 1: 36:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:19

Yeah, and then and then, like, learn how to cry in front of each other, right like? Let those tears be your lubricants, right yeah?

Speaker 1: 36:29

I don't know. There's nothing hotter than a partner. I'm hetero, so I'll say a guy, a guy who gets so vulnerable that they can cry in front of me. Nothing hotter than that.

Speaker 2: 36:42

Yeah, I'm not hetero.

Speaker 2: 36:43

And I love I sleep with everyone. I love tears, yeah. And when I first met my partner he really struggled with like vulnerable conversations, like any kind of depth. He didn't have the muscle built. So when we would have these really big conversations he would be like I'm exhausted, I have to go to sleep right now. Like he felt physically tired and I'd be like but what? Like this is my turn on right, like I'm ready to go and in over the years he's built that muscle and and and that's real, like people don't just flip a switch and they can handle all this. We got to kind of walk into it Like it's the kiddie pool.

Speaker 1: 37:24

Yeah, it takes practice for sure, but it's learnable. It's totally learnable I learned it.

Speaker 2: 37:30

I came out of my relationship passive, aggressive, definitely not a direct communicator, afraid of big conversations. And I remember reading one time like you cannot have security in a relationship without conflict. And I was like oh, you're right, that makes it adds up, right? You've got to be able to know that, if you have that difficult conversation, that the relationship survives on the other side, and the only way you're going to know that is to test it.

Speaker 1: 37:58

Right.

Speaker 2: 37:59

So test it early and test it often.

Speaker 1: 38:01

Yes, I love that. I've also heard you say the words.

Speaker 1: 38:04

You cannot have true intimacy if there's an agenda which I thought was what you were about to say, but that's not what you said. But I've heard you say those words. Okay, so maybe quickly. Yeah, maybe you said words. Okay, so let's maybe quickly. Yeah, maybe you said that. No, I'm sure you said that I could have. It. Sounds like me, yeah, yeah. So let's unpack that for a second here. First, a hundred percent agree with that, and in my years as a sex educator, I've come across hundreds of women who would say yeah, there is an agenda orgasm. So how do you have sex without an agenda Like what's that look like?

Speaker 2: 38:44

I mean that goes back to soft cock week. We talk about that there all the time, Right and it's hard to practice. That, like orgasms, feel good, they do Right.

Speaker 1: 38:53

We talk.

Speaker 2: 38:53

sometimes I hear people say that if you're not having, if you're not wanting sex is because you're not having good sex. And it makes me mad because, uh, like I, I struggle with sex and I have great sex. It's just, it's like out of sight, out of mind, the memory, like I know. This is why I say I want to want to have sex because I do really have good sex, say I want to want to have sex because I do really have good sex. But to get my brain, my mind, to that sexual space is a really hard fucking track. It has nothing to do with the quality of my orgasms and my sex.

Speaker 2: 39:30

And I feel like that statement when people say that it's erasing a whole bunch of people's experience, that is actually counter to that.

Speaker 1: 39:38

Thank you for saying that, because I'm going to just own something right now. I have said those words that if you don't like sex, probably because you're not having good sex, and I get it If you're not, if you're having terrible sex, of course you're going to avoid it, but I have not included that aspect of it that, yeah, you can be be having good sex, but it's still hard sometimes.

Speaker 2: 40:01

Yeah, thank you, you kind of you didn't realize you did, but you called me out and I appreciate that well, also another thing, and I don't know if you've done this and I have, when I've seen you post something that I'm like actually, lee, there's a little nuance here, there's more to it.

Speaker 1: 40:14

For sure, for sure.

Speaker 2: 40:16

100, because we're all working off of our own experience.

Speaker 1: 40:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:21

Right. And another thing that bugs me is when people say schedule sex. God, no, that is like such an expectation and that is my boner killer. Right. Like expectation internally, externally, it makes it so hard to become a yes to sex for me. I need to schedule time to be in proximity. Right the safety, the proximity, the sex right. I have to schedule proximity time, because that's the thing I need to get to the sex. But what I don't need is an expectation of it, and if my partner's saying it's Monday nights, Right.

Speaker 2: 40:58

Yeah, I've been waiting for this all day. I can't do that. That doesn't work for me.

Speaker 1: 41:04

Yeah, I love that you brought that up, because I have said those words schedule it. But when I say sex I don't mean intercourse. I mean sex to me is a big umbrella and intercourse is one teeny tiny thing under that umbrella, like, what I mean is schedule connection, like make sure you, you somehow connect with your partner and I, I guess instead of sex it would be more intimacy, intimacy, bond with them somehow, but somehow, but not in the intimacy to make the Google crawlers.

Speaker 2: 41:40

okay, right, right. This isn't interchanging sex and intimacy as code words.

Speaker 1: 41:47

No, no, no no. Right, it's sharing something from your heart, right, it's a hard intimacy. It's a gooey, gooey feel, feel emotionally good intimacy Not when that's there Most of the time.

Speaker 2: 42:02

I want to fuck too, right, like whether that's intercourse my preference. If, like if, if it came down to Michelle, you only get to pick one kind of sex for the rest of your life, give me hand sex all day long Like it is much more your life. Give me hand sex all day long Like it is much more consistently reliable, a better orgasm I can have multiple orgasms with. With that kind of sex where penetrative sex, I can't have multiple orgasms, it's just my body responds differently to it. I can get on the roller coaster and ride the waves If it's hand sex, oral sex, a combination of the two, I just my body works differently. So, like, if I feel that heart connection, it's right, it's right around the corner, right, but the expectation will will block me every time.

Speaker 2: 42:51

Yeah, yeah, I love it and I want to feel like my partner wants to have time with me, even if it doesn't go to sex, right? I want to know that in the depths of my soul, that they want to spend time with me and they would love for it to be sex, and they're okay if it's not.

Speaker 1: 43:09

Right.

Speaker 2: 43:10

I don't want to be a dispenser.

Speaker 1: 43:12

No one feels good about that.

Speaker 2: 43:15

Well, some people do. It's probably their kink. No, maybe, yeah Right. No one feels good about that. Well, some people do. It's probably their kink. No, maybe, yeah right, right I. I make room for everything. But again, this comes down to what works for you, whether it's sex, whether it's relationship agreements, like all these things need to be talked about and discover what you need for yourself and then see if that's compatible with your partner and what agreements do you need to make around that.

Speaker 2: 43:39

We have to get to know each other yeah, yeah, I love this we could do it all day we could do this all day just riff.

Speaker 1: 43:49

Okay, then I riff all day, all day long, oh my gosh. So if one of our listeners thinks that they could use work like this, how can they find? Well, one thing, how can they find you if they live in the San Diego area? And how can they find a practitioner where they live if they don't live here?

Speaker 2: 44:10

Yeah, so I'm at humanconnectionlabcom Like that's my work and people come in to work with me. You don't have to be in San Diego Like you're going to, and people come in to work with me. You don't have to be in San Diego Like you're going to find. What I want people to do is find the practitioner that feels like a good fit for them. Right, you've got it. Connection is the biggest component to success in therapy. That's talk therapy, that's touch therapy. The limbic system is really key for this whole process and that's about connection. So connect with your talk therapist. There's this idea that talk therapist should be this wall and you should never know anything about them. We're kind of starting to get away from that, thankfully, because the number you could have all the different trainings in the world. The connection is the thing that determines the likelihood of whatever success looks like right. Yeah, so that's the likelihood of whatever success looks like right.

Speaker 2: 44:57

Yes so that's the same thing with your practitioner. So if you're in San Diego, I'm here, but if people come into town, I travel, I go to the East Coast often, whatever, that doesn't matter. If you want to work with a cuddlist cuddlistcom, if you're going to work in professional cuddling, they're my favorite. They're the only ones I've ever worked with. But if, if, if that's not the only one. I also really love cuddle sanctuary. They do a really great training. Also, they're not necessarily client led, but if that's what you're looking for, um, that can be a really quality option. They're out of, uh, los Angeles, but they have people all over the country also.

Speaker 1: 45:34

Awesome, I'll put links in the show notes for people. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 45:38

Surrogate partner therapy. My first thing is talk to your therapist. They may not even know that it exists, right, right. And then I want to give you you know. At that point, have your therapist reach out to embracesptorg. That is an organization I co-founded. We're a nonprofit. We do a lot of post-training education for surrogates and also educating therapists on how to work with surrogates. We also have a free information session every month for clients that are considering working with a surrogate partner.

Speaker 1: 46:17

So that was kind of like.

Speaker 2: 46:19

there's lots of other stuff out there.

Speaker 1: 46:21

My website has more links for different kinds of organizations that are connected to touch work, but awesome that was my next question Like if any of the listeners out there thinks that they would be good at this kind of work.

Speaker 2: 46:33

How would?

Speaker 1: 46:33

they get started. So that would be the embracesptorg at this kind of work how would they get started?

Speaker 2: 46:38

So that would be the embracesptorg, Actually. No, let me tell you, oh, okay, so so Cuddlist does their training right and I actually have a coupon code for 10% off If anybody wanted to take the training I I can share that with you and that you can find it. Meetmichellereneecom has that code. Okay, but for training, for surrogate partner therapy, surrogate partner collectiveorg, they are doing trainings. There's a couple other training organizations I really love SPC, because they bring in kind of a community based training. So all the active surrogates right now, a lot of us at least are all part of their training. So, like I have a section, Brian Gibney has a section, Lou Hanson has actually a bunch of us all come in and take different parts of the training and bring our voice. So you're not getting just one person's vision of what surrogate partner therapy is, You're getting what surrogate partner can be right from a bigger collective brain. So that's that's why I happen to love them.

Speaker 1: 47:41

And.

Speaker 2: 47:41

I also happen to teach for them, so Lovely, awesome.

Speaker 1: 47:45

And so you said there's a coupon code. Do you want to say that on air here?

Speaker 2: 47:49

I don't. It's not. You have to use a link. I wish I could just say oh, it's a link that directs people. Okay, so complicated.

Speaker 1: 47:56

So go to meet michelle reneecomi can send you.

Speaker 2: 47:59

If you want to send me a, I'll send you a bunch of links after this so you can put them in the show notes. It might be easier for you great.

Speaker 1: 48:06

Yeah, we'll definitely hook people up with all the links yeah it's.

Speaker 2: 48:10

It's great work, it's powerful. If you feel called to it, you know listen to that calling right if you're like I could never do that. Listen to that too, right. This is not the uber, you know. This is not a side hustle, right?

Speaker 1: 48:26

right you.

Speaker 2: 48:27

You really have to be passionate about it to to do it and make a difference and you got to do your own work because the ultimately you got to have better boundaries than your clients work because, ultimately, you got to have better boundaries than your clients.

Speaker 1: 48:41

Yeah, yeah, we got to be ahead of them A hundred percent. Yeah, I think there's a lot of personal growth that needs to happen to be effective at this kind of work. Because you got to be able to talk, you got to be able to set those boundaries and a lot of people don't know those skills.

Speaker 2: 48:54

And you don't have to start with them. Right, if you started with Cuddlist, that's part of the training is identifying some of those blind spots, right. Right, like I didn't start with great any of that stuff, I learned it on the job. Like Cuddlist healed my unhealthy relationship history. Right, I did that on the job. Like it's not that you can't, it's just you got to keep doing the work. Right, I did that on the job. Like it's not that you can't, it's just you got to keep doing the work.

Speaker 1: 49:21

Right, yeah, awesome. Thank you, michelle, for your work in this world, helping people feel safe so that they can heal their trauma and have better relationships and have a better relationship with themselves Most importantly and you are just such a bright light in this field. I'm so glad to know you personally and thank you for being on the show. So good, let's cuddle. Let's cuddle. Yes, please.

Speaker 2: 49:52

Absolutely. I would love to Thank you, thank you.