Tomb It May Concern
RIP Rover - An Uplifting Discussion about Pet Death
In this episode we discuss the lighthearted topic of pet death . . . and whether people or animals are better. The answer may surprise you!
Hello, and welcome to Mit May Concern, the podcast where we look into the abyss and see what looks back. I'm your host, Patrick.
Asher:Patrick. I'm Asher, and we have a fun guest with us today, my cousin Britt. Who'd you bring with you today?
Britt:today? I brought a whole grumble of pugs. We have, Benny, Plum, and Manny. It's It
Patrick:It is definitely a pet party, and why is it appropriate that we're having a pet party today,
Asher:today we're talking about the lovely subject of, pet death. why not have a bunch of pugs here to keep us cheered up and
Patrick:Yeah, nothing brings people more joy than thinking about dead
Asher:No. Except for
Britt:Except for Pugs. Pugs, Pugs help.
Patrick:I thought you were talking about dead pugs make
Britt:No.
Asher:no, that doesn't make anyone happy, no. But before we get into pet death, I think we should talk about your update that you have from last week's episode. Patrick has a fun update to share.
Patrick:a kind of fun. We're always gonna throw puns.
Asher:it is. if
Patrick:I jokingly said that the best way to dispose of a body would be cannibalism. A state legislator in Idaho by the name of Heather Scott has introduced an anti cannibalism law. And it's specifically about tricking people into eating human flesh
Asher:Oh.
Patrick:because she got it into her head that human composting might lead to inadvertent
Asher:But, wait.
Britt:cannibalism always been illegal?
Patrick:You would think.
Asher:we have a few follow up questions.
Britt:a few
Patrick:follow up questions. We have notes.
Asher:okay, go, continue.
Patrick:What's really important about this is how she came up with the idea that this could potentially be a
Asher:this could
Patrick:She saw a video where somebody, a chef or a cook, knowingly fed human flesh to other people. And she put it online and said, this is proof that this is an issue,
Asher:And we
Patrick:that we have to take it seriously to keep people from forcing other people to
Asher:people.
Patrick:Now, the next question is, where's that video, and what is that
Asher:what is that video? No.
Patrick:I could easily find it. Because it is from a prank show
Britt:Of
Patrick:on TruTV, hosted by David Spade. It was not real. And she even said
Britt:so easy to trick.
Patrick:that the, it is so easy to trick them. So she actually put in her post, This may be a spoof, but I'm going to make law based on
Asher:Christ. Good lord. But still I don't understand the correlation between that video and human composting.
Patrick:This is what Business Insider has to say. Republican lawmakers in Idaho introduced an anti cannibalism law to address fears that human composting could lead to accidental cannibalism. State Representative Heather Scott of Blanchard, Idaho. I don't know if you've ever been to Blanchard, Idaho. Lovely place.
Asher:Have you? No. Nobody's been there. It
Patrick:would expand the state's already existing cannibalism law. Cannibalism is the practice of eaten other person's body with or without consent. There are no federal laws specifically to outlaw cannibalism, but most states have laws that indirectly make cannibalism impossible such as laws against desecration of a corpse. the only state that specifically outlaws cannibalism. But now, what they want to do is they want to ban the human composting because they're afraid that might cause people to
Asher:accidentally ingest it.
Patrick:you're acting as though there needs to be
Asher:sense Yeah,
Patrick:And not just, and not just craziness, yeah. that's the update. so we didn't really talk about human composting in the last episode, but we did talk about
Asher:We sure did, yeah. And we talked about green burials, which I
Patrick:yes, we talked about green, yeah, we talked about green burials, and
Asher:we have a friend of a friend, we
Britt:I believe that I know somebody who knows a funeral director who does the green burials. Either he actually does them, yes, either he actually does them or he's trying to do them, very costly.
Patrick:maybe we could get that person on the show sometime.
Asher:okay. Yeah, we'll talk to them. That they who should, shall not be named yet.
Britt:they
Patrick:because we don't know if they
Asher:don't know. We don't know if they exist, yeah.
Patrick:it might be Sasquatch.
Britt:Yeah. He's still a funeral
Asher:Yeah, which we want, we want to talk to some funeral directors. I have a question for you guys that is off topic, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring it all in. But, this is a question that comes up a lot in, um, so, most of you might not know, I guess. There's a lot of listeners who know us, personally, because that's the only people listening right now. But, my background, Britt's background, is animal welfare. so that's Why this topic feels important to us, why we brought Brit into the topic today. But a question that comes up a lot, and we can talk more about that too, like what our background is, and like why this topic is relevant. So, um, this question comes up a lot. I get asked this question all the time. And I feel like I hear this question all the time. Where people just say the statement. I love animals more than I love people. So my question to you both, because I have a rant I'd like to go on, but I'd like your genuine answers first, is would you say that you like animals more than you like people? And this, I will do a quick shout out to my new Gaby co worker, Evan, who posed this question and I felt the need to respond and I, gave her a philosophy rant about it. Okay. do you guys like animals more than you like people?
Patrick:Uh,
Britt:for me, I, probably also yes, but it depends on the day. I do love a lot of people, but I give animals a lot more grace than I give people on their behavior and, and just whose company I want to keep on a daily basis, I definitely spend more time with animals probably by choice. Yeah, good
Asher:Good answer.
Patrick:See, I'm of the opinion that animals are, by their very nature, innocent.
Asher:Yeah.
Patrick:No matter what an animal does, they are not doing it out of any malice or any ill will. What they do is just because they're animals, and that's what they do. I can't say the same for human beings. Human beings, as a species, are much different than the other creatures on this earth, in the fact that we do understand morality, we do understand ethics, and we do know right and wrong, or at least we should. And oftentimes people do not follow those ethics and morals. People give you lots of reasons to love them, to like them, but also not to like them. I don't think I've ever felt that way about an animal, even when an animal misbehaves. I don't feel any ill will towards them because I know that In their minds, there's absolutely no malice. Whatsoever.
Britt:Yeah, I mean that misbehavior is only based on what we've decided is proper behavior, so it has nothing to do with what's going on in their head.
Patrick:They're just doing animal things. It's the, I think it was Chris Rock who said,
Asher:yeah, accurate. Yeah,
Patrick:tiger just did what tigers
Asher:tigers do. Yeah. Yeah. so I have a proposal, a thought experiment that I would like people to entertain, I think. And, I'm hoping there's space for that.
Patrick:If there's not space on a podcast for that. there's no space anywhere.
Asher:my answer to that is always. No, I love humans more than I love animals, and I think that often surprises people. but I think what I would like to offer is that it's easier to love animals. But I would say, like to kick off the comparison, my dog Danny, some of you know, is like, she's my heart animal. She's my emotional support animal unintentionally. I've never loved a pet more, don't tell my other pets, but I've never loved a pet more than I love her, like we have a bond. But, when Dani dies versus if one of you guys died, or my mom died, or my dad died, like that, grief is grief, But that impact is very different for me, personally. I'm not saying that's the same for everybody. But I think what I'd like to, offer is that animals make it easy to love because they don't have a morality component. They don't, they're innocent in nature. They're pure, so to speak. and so I think, what makes it challenging to love humans is that, like you were saying, there is sometimes intentional hurting. But more often than not, I think it's unintentional. And I think it's messy because there's egos involved and there's, past wounds and generational trauma and all that stuff. But I would argue that is why, me at least, I know that's like why I'm able to love the way that I love is because my relationships with other people offer a mirror. They offer an opportunity for like me to learn about myself, me to learn about other people, and that makes my love like deeper. And that's why I'm like, I will always value my love for humans. if not just as much, it's always hard to say like more or less, but, it's something like I think is important to talk about because I think especially for the state that our world is in right now, especially considering, all the hate crimes and, Donald Trump being the hateful person he is and, everything that's going on with Israel and Palestine, everything right now, like it is, it feels hard to have faith and humanity. And I think Again, I know this is like a little bit off topic, but I think thinking of death does help us re ground in like love and also like how to be kinder to each other and how to Remember, it's a choice. It's hard to love people, and it's a choice to love each other. But the more we can see ourselves, in other people, obviously there's tons of famous people that talk about this, but I think, people smarter than me, I mean. But I think, the more that we can think of things that way, that offers an opportunity for us to, actually have some hope or some faith. But, that was my rant. What were you gonna say,
Britt:to, actually have some hope for some faith, but that was my real reaction. But the few people you really love, that's a very deep love that's going to be, like you said, the grief is going to be bigger. The loss is bigger because that, humans have to give you a reason
Asher:You have to work for
Britt:Yeah, so that, that love is definitely a lot deeper than I think that, and also like we prepare for animals lives to be shorter. So if your friend dies after, and tortoises, your horse that's supposed to live for 30 years dies at 12. That's upsetting, but it's not as upsetting probably as your. sister dying halfway through their life when you expect to grow old with them. You're not expecting to grow old with your dog, not only is that love different and deeper in a longevity sense, but, it's definitely, yeah, it's exactly what you were saying, though, it's just very different.
Asher:It's different,
Patrick:What, what I, I will modify my answer slightly, and and I think it touches on what Britt said, which is, if you ask me if I like, People more than I like animals? The answer is
Britt:is no. Yes, human
Patrick:Yes. Human beings. Yes. Are there certain people that I love more than animals? yeah. I love my mom, I love my brother, my sister, but I love us.
Britt:I
Asher:love you. I You know it. And
Britt:Only your best friends.
Patrick:my, but my point being that I can love an individual like I look at it this way, you scroll through tick tock, which you probably shouldn't do, but you scroll through tick tock. I see videos of people, and I see videos of animals, right? I am going to like every video that has an animal on it, because I am going to have an immediate positive reaction to just about any animal that you see. The humans? Not so much, right?
Britt:they're funny humans. Those
Patrick:Yeah,
Britt:I enjoy.
Patrick:ones,
Asher:think
Patrick:but the other thing that you have to remember about me And I think we might have talked about this on the very first
Asher:first episode.
Patrick:I have a very deep fascination with the horrible
Asher:you do.
Patrick:That humans do. And I'm not talking, true crime stuff. I'm talking genocides and mass, mass delusions. Individuals can be very caring and very kind. Groups of people are bad
Asher:would argue that is behavior. That's my, that's kind of my point, is that what we're talking about, like any, and I think like the work that, like Britt and I have done with people. Once you get a person separated from that group mentality or from like
Britt:this is what so and so said I should be doing.
Asher:Yeah, or the obvious stupidity that you're like what the fuck dude like when you think of you know Any history lesson and the true history of the blatant racism in our country like that type of stuff It's so hard to not be like why I fucking hate people but people as a whole, collectives, act really dumb and have really poor behavior, and they make these very collective decisions or don't think for themselves, But I think when you pull anybody out of a group and actually have a conversation with them. Humans are mostly very similar. we all have the same basic needs. We all have the same, things that we want and desire, which is why I think we're so drawn to animals because animals meet those, same principles and those same needs, but they don't have the same ego or demand or, they see us for exactly who we are. So we think, and we can easily love them, but I just think it's risky. The statement. That we hear all the time, Oh, I fucking hate people, and that's why I work with animals. it's very triggering for me, personally, and I'm just asking that people, think about it before they say it, or, just offering a thought experiment, so to speak. It's
Patrick:understand. It's funny, my opinion on this is very similar to a bit that George Carlin once had.
Asher:Not surprising, for some reason. Because I
Patrick:Cause I love George Carlin, he's he's the philosophical genius of the 20th
Asher:It's true. It's true. Anyway, that was my rant. I just wanted to bring you all along with me on that
Patrick:But I, but I do appreciate that, especially as someone who comes from an animal welfare background to have you say, I do have a more positive feeling towards humans and I, and if I were to look around this room, cause I know,
Asher:Look around
Patrick:know all three of us very well. If I was to pick one of us who liked humans more than animals, it would be you because you are, you're an optimist. You just are. You're an, I seriously, you're an idealist and I appreciate that
Asher:it's hard though. It's hard to be an idealist at
Patrick:you do care about people. Yeah. whereas Brit and I, we're cynical assholes.
Asher:that's what I'm saying. It's easy to be hateful. It's easy to not,
Patrick:Oh, I work so hard at
Britt:gonna say. It's
Asher:but I'm, it's just so there's one person in particular
Patrick:job for me.
Asher:our lives right now that I'm like, it is easy for me to hate that person right now, but I don't want to hate that person. And I am doing deep digs to choose love and acceptance and not include them in my life anymore. I'm not stupid, but I just, I think it's easy to hate people and it's also a slippery slope because it is an exit where it, it lacks accountability for us to try to be a better human species and we're fucking failing at it, we've been failing at it for a very long time, but I know individuals, I know enough individuals that are beautiful people that I'm like, I know that people are capable of it, I know you're capable of loving me and don't believe in any human, and Brit and I've already told her every day of our lives that we have to die at the same time because I refuse to live this life without her, but, yeah, you and Remy have our deathbed together. I'm gonna
Patrick:gonna have to do this podcast by
Asher:Yeah, let's
Britt:let's be honest
Asher:guy. We're gonna
Britt:going to outlive him.
Patrick:only are
Britt:only are we women.
Patrick:we're
Asher:he's, also 70.
Britt:ten years on
Patrick:crypt keeper.
Britt:ha! Aw.
Asher:All right, anyway, um, okay, so we're here to talk about pet death, which is It's been a long segue to get here, but I think what I would like to talk about a little bit first is, In our experience, and Britt, I think you can attest this too, that We talk to a lot of people every day that it's like their first pet and they've never gone through euthanasia before. And it seems like a really scary thing to, and it's horrible. no one wants to put their pet to sleep, but I want to break down a little bit like what it actually is, like what is the process of euthanasia? And then like in our experience, like what, at all of us here, like why we think that decisions feel so hard for people, to maybe create some comfort and can you attach links to documents to our podcast? Okay, because, we have a vet friend, Dr. Christy, who sent us some really great materials. in case anybody listening is going through that tough decision of having to euthanize, we have some good handouts that can be really helpful, and Brit, you've recently found it helpful for
Patrick:And, just to give some context to anybody listening, everybody in this room has had Yeah. And that's why I'm grateful you're here, because I wasn't looking for assistance today. Yeah. I appreciate it, because I think it's hard to talk about when
Asher:grateful you're here. Cause I wasn't even sure if this would be possible for you today. So I appreciate you being here and
Britt:of course.
Asher:here to talk about it. Cause I think it's, it's hard to talk about when it's close to your heart, but like we talked about in one of the other episodes, it's, sometimes it's good to talk about it and, We all want to remember Teo, so he was special to all three of us in this room.
Britt:a good
Asher:Also an Aussie, looks a lot like Patrick's dog.
Patrick:all want to remember
Britt:exist. Exists in this house.
Patrick:offbeat,
Asher:Yeah.
Patrick:a lot like Patrick. and absolutely fell in love with him, and I told Brit, if you ever see a dog that looks like Tao, that's a female, that's what I want. And
Asher:And we
Patrick:and we found her.
Asher:her. Anyway. I'm not going to get super technical with the science of euthanasia, but I do want to walk through what is it basically, And why? Like, why are we choosing euthanasia over letting your pet die home naturally? I think something that Brittany and I talk about, at work all the time, in, in various career paths that we've had in animal welfare, a lot of people have this, very idealistic plan that, they just want their pets to go at home comfortably, naturally, They have this image that it's going to be this very peaceful experience. both of us, but especially Brett has seen directly how that isn't what people think it is. like we've seen pets die, quote unquote, naturally. And it is, it tends to be a lot of suffering and I think the comparison that we often give to people, our clients and things is that, when humans are dying, we're in a hospital, we're hooked up to IVs with morphine. Breathing tubes, all kinds of things like keep us comfortable until our literal last breath, obviously the term pulling the plug, you're, you take people off of support, and then there's some moments, some temporary discomfort that, that humans are experiencing, but for animals, this can go on for they're not hospitalized. So this can go on for months for weeks, hours, whatever it is, but it can go on for like way longer than you think. And I think, especially because animals can't tell you how they're feeling. you don't exactly know what their experience is and when they started their suffering other than what you can tell. and the other thing that we experience is like animals are really stoic. So a lot of animals seem okay, but Britt and I know, by experience that like, animals are masking their pain because it's a survival thing, and I don't know if wanted to speak any more on, on that part of the idealistic process of death, but,
Britt:Yeah, Definitely, I think pet, I think the most interesting thing about pet death is that it is almost, it's very unique because it's something that's almost dictated 100 percent by the humans in that pet's life. We decide whether they're gonna Struggle on for months because we are wondering whether they're going to have good days or not, or if we're going to let them have a, a quiet, humane death. and that guilt, the guilt is the worst part. did I wait too long or did I do it too soon? I don't want to make the wrong choice. so I think that's the hardest part. like Asher said, it's, I've had pets that have been euthanized. and I've had those second thoughts like, did I do too soon? Was he going to rally? and then I had pets die at home. I've only had one out of all the pets that have died at home that was fairly quick and it was still awful. I had a. my dog cried in his last breath and I was like, that's, I never want to hear that sound again. I've never had that with a euthanasia, that's just a go to sleep and don't wake up sort of thing. I had a cat that gas for air all night because I couldn't afford to take her to an emergency clinic, so I think people don't realize that, that it's not going to be that hooked up to morphine fall asleep thing that your relatives have, that your loved ones have. It's going to be watching them struggle if you can't make that decision or you decide not to make that decision. I think very few people are lucky enough that I just woke up and my pet was sleeping and they didn't wake
Asher:they didn't
Britt:I think that happens to one in a thousand pets, if that,
Asher:pets. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that you touched on it. it's this idea of playing God. you are deciding when this very special thing in your life. Breathes its last breath and no one wants to make that choice. And you also brought up a good point about accessibility. There is a huge accessibility issue with euthanasia, which, I wanted to touch on anyway, because the cost is crazy. and we, talk about human funerals and the economics of human funerals. Pets. It's not much better. I think our cheapest euthanasia is what for a small dog or a cat is if you're getting a comment or, a private cremation, which is when you get the ashes back as well at two 50.
Britt:Yeah, I know
Asher:know specifically
Britt:yeah, I know specifically at the, at the The emergency clinic that I work at, if you come in for a walk in euthanasia, like you know your pet is on its last leg and this is the choice you're trying to make for them, just the euthanasia itself is going to be 300. and then,
Asher:if you want to
Britt:if you want, yeah, and then if you want ashes back, you're looking at 200 to 290. depending on what package you want. Common 70, so that's a lot less. But then you don't get, you don't get your ashes back. So if that's something that's important to you, which I know it's very important to me, and it's very important to a lot of people, but the accessibility for actually getting your pet's ashes back is very limited. It's always going to be a few hundred dollars a minimum, and that's the thing with animals. You never plan for that day. They're passing away on a Tuesday at two o'clock in the afternoon where you can go to your normal bat
Asher:Right, it's always a Sunday or a holiday. Yeah. It's
Britt:and it's always, you've waited until, you've waited until it's, you're going to wait until it's an emergency because you don't want to say goodbye to your pet. necessarily. So by the time you come in, they're generally suffering and you're going to pay upwards of 500 just to say goodbye to your pet,
Patrick:pet, you know. What the one, uh, my experience, with the pets that I've put down is, like you said, walk If you go to a vet that you've been going to, right? if it's your animal's vet and you go to every year for checkups and vaccinations, oftentimes they'll do it for free because they know
Britt:old school vets,
Asher:don't anymore, though.
Britt:Because it's all, because most vet, so many practices are corporate now that's just not even
Patrick:It's not even an option.
Asher:it's also the part that from the veterinary side and I've now, Brittany and I have both worked inside vet med as well. but they're, the argument is that how do I say this? diplomatically, basically like the weight that it puts on the staff to euthanize the pets and how hard that is for the vets. they want that to be a consideration as far as like, yes, it's a gift to you to euthanize your pet for free. But their argument is also like, we also have an investment emotionally and this as well. So like it, basically justifying why, and whether or not that's right or wrong. I'm not saying, I'm just saying like that from the vet's perspective, that's the argument that I've heard recently.
Patrick:also because
Asher:Yeah. That it's vet time. And also because the vets aren't doing the cremation themselves. Vets are using, there's two companies in Ohio right now that have. monopolize the industry that are doing all the euthanasia, just like the
Britt:the
Asher:I'm sorry, the cremation, thank you. so they're charging the vets that cost and then, but the vets, most vets, even if you're getting your pet euthanized at an emergency clinic versus a private practice, they do try to keep the cost pretty much the same. It's not that much different, which I think is nice. and
Britt:and I will say the rare case, at least in defense of the clinic that I work at, the rare case that we. a client cannot afford to euthanize the pet and it is in the pet's best interest. we have had veterinarians do Mercy youths. So it's very rare and it's not like we offer this, but if it comes down to it, luckily the kindness of the doctor seeing that pet sometimes does prevail. and we do have Mercy euthanasia as an option. But they're not getting ashes back unless they're paying for that, because that's going to be a thing either, the clinic or the veterinarian is getting charged for that regardless, so you're never going to get your pet's ashes back for free. It's just not happening.
Asher:Yeah, and if you take their body back and bury it, then you don't have to worry about that. But most people are renting. Most people don't own their own home, so when
Britt:middle of winter. Yeah, your
Asher:Yeah, your pet dies in the middle. What are you gonna do? so I think like there are, again Britt and I doing the work that We've done, there are organizations. So wherever you are, definitely do some research ahead of time. If you're, if cost is going to be a barrier for you, there are organizations that provide, support for, humane euthanasia services, burial, cremation, type stuff. But, you definitely have to do some digging to find it for sure. Cause it's not always the most
Britt:with your local
Asher:Yeah. Start with your shelters. Always start with your shelters, any humane society. SPCA thing. That's usually the place to start, One
Patrick:One, one thing that I want to circle back on that we've talked about, and Brit, you talked about this, and I think some of your past experiences played into your recent decision, with Teo. what is the process for making the decision? At what point, cause I, I'll just tell you, my, my personal experience with, my dog Luke, who died in 2013. He wasn't, he was not doing well. I knew he wasn't doing well. And, his, and he was, it was just age, right? he was 13 years old, which isn't super old, but he was also a German Shepherd He He started to have trouble controlling his bowels and one morning I woke up and he was just in a puddle of urine and with poop around him and he was just laying there. And for me it was like, okay, this is, it was clear I had at that point in time I was like, this is a dog who has been very proud. He was an athlete. We used to do frisbee contests and I was, and I knew that not only did I not want to see him like this, right? And I know this is probably some, I'm putting human feelings on a dog, right? Which probably isn't appropriate, but you do it anyway.
Asher:we all do it.
Patrick:I knew that he didn't want to live like that, right? at that point, it was like, Okay, it's now time. And I never had any, I never had any guilt about making the decision at that time because it felt like, Okay, this
Asher:was obvious to
Patrick:obvious to you.
Asher:And I think that's what oh, sorry, go ahead.
Britt:uh, sorry, not to interrupt, and not to tell someone else's story, but, I will say, because I do, I've never had that moment of this is time, it's time, he's showing me it's time. every animal I've euthanized, I've been really unsure about. I've either, most of them, I honestly haven't had to, I've had a couple die naturally, which I didn't like. one die, we euthanized because of an emergency, which also sucks in its own end. but, it's to, to go along with what Patrick's saying, one of the things that helped me make the decision with Tao, which I still, have doubts about, but, I don't think it was the wrong choice, was the, what Asher was talking about earlier, the links that we were going to send, it's called, lap love, the story sheet that the veterinary on that website told really hit me, cause she told the story of, a dog that was, it was her own dog was a, Doberman, and, she, he'd been declining, and he was on all these meds, and he had all these health issues, and the, the mom of the dog very much wanted to keep going, wanted to keep doing meds, wanted to keep trying things, and he would rally and all this.
Asher:was like years too, by
Britt:years too, by the
Asher:because she had access to it, extensive medical
Britt:So a lot of that. A lot of people can't do, but because mom was a vet, yeah, all this stuff. and dad wanted to remember the dog is this, the stoic boy. He was the athletic boy. He was the proud boy, not to necessarily, let him decline and decline until, until there was no other choice. He wanted to kind of make the end happen while the dog was still doing pretty good. While he was still feeling himself, give him a really good day, that kind of thing. yeah. And, so I thought about that as my thing is all, you know, I always feel like I'm going to wait too long and, the dog's kind of waning and, my, my dog that died at home, he couldn't walk. I let him go on for weeks like that. It was terrible. I don't know why I did that. I should have euthanized him so far before I did. And that's why I made the decision with Teo is because he was having a hard time walking, getting up. and. I thought of this Doberman that I read, that I listened to the story about and I was like, man, Teo doesn't want to go out, suffering and dragging himself around and urinating on himself, he would want to go out on a day that, he didn't go out walking, but, my thought was maybe he'd rally and he'd walk again, but then, is the next time he quits walking going to be worse. And then we're looking, and then he's feeling even shittier, So I think that was a really good way to look at it. And I think Patrick made the right choice. My dog is proud, and he's active, and he doesn't want to be like this. and I think that, that's a really good way to look at it. don't, maybe don't wait until your pet is dragging themselves around. Or, literally minutes from death before you make that decision. It's just that is the gift we can give to them, But it is such a hard choice.
Asher:a hard choice. Yeah, and I think this is where we talk about quality of life assessment. Had a vet say to, and I said this to you when we were talking about Tao, but One of the vets that I've had the honor of working with had said to me like, There's a point where you know that the end is near ish, right? And at a certain point, There isn't a too soon, there is a too late. Maybe it was Dr. Christie, I don't know. some lovely vet that I know said
Britt:wonderful vets we
Asher:Sorry, sorry for misquoting you. If you are listening, tell me who you are and I will make sure I give you credit. Because it was beautiful because it, I think that is very true. That it, you know, at a certain point, it will always feel too soon. But it is very true that it, there is a very too late. Where, they, you could have had the oper rather than Rushing your animal to the emergency room and some of some people won't have the privilege of this, right? Like you said sometimes it does happen in an emergency and something else I want to talk about is you know what people would consider too soon euthanasia for other reasons, which I think we'll get into next but you know what? I hate to see is you know what happened with pongo my cat where it was like he had stomach cancer He was not doing well, and at any point, I could have chosen euthanasia. But instead, I waited until I woke up one morning, and he was like, writhing on the floor, and then I had to rush him to the vet. I got pulled over by a cop for speeding. I'm crying to the vet. He's asking me, to ticket me, and I'm like, you can fucking follow me to the emergency room. I'm not stopping. my cat is actively dying right now, and then by the time I got to the vet, I was in such distress because I'm speeding, I'm pulled over, my cat is screaming in the carrier next to me. and had I done it like a couple days sooner, I could have had maybe this like very like beautiful moment and it's never going to be what we want it to be. like that my ex had told me that with my last cat dying and that was like the most gracious thing she could have said to me at that point was like. this, it's never going to be what you want, you're always going to want this special moment with your pet, so it's never going to be that, like you can release yourself from that. But I think if we can ask ourselves these questions or get these kinds of documents out there or, these things that help us make these assessments and these really hard times. That, you can control having this peaceful outing with your pet with integrity and, where it's in a way that is reducing as much suffering as possible versus waiting until that last minute, that emergency, that, that very obvious moment, which you may never get either, like sometimes, just like with human death, like sometimes it's not.
Britt:You think about too, like how stressful was it for Pango to have you Exactly. Crying and stressed. And I read a really interesting thing, years ago posted by a vet tech. and there's a lot of about, there's a lot of like controversy around what I'm about to say.
Asher:We're always here for the controversy. This is a podcast about death.
Patrick:that's what brings the listeners.
Britt:working in animal welfare and also working in vet med. there's a lot of difference, different opinions about whether the owner should be there when their pet is euthanized. I read something once from a vet tech that said, you don't have to be there. If you're going to be hysterical and crying, that is going to give your pet more stress than these calm individuals that are euthanizing them. Do most vet techs and doctors want to euthanize your pet? Without you. Probably not. I think there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of maybe, misguided, judgment toward people that do not want to be there for their
Asher:There's stigma. Yeah.
Britt:but I thought that was a really good way to look at it is are you causing your pet more stress in their last moments by being hysterical? They don't know what's happening. So if you're hugging them and crying hysterically, all they know is stress and fear. But if they're calm and being pet by nice, quiet people, Who, maybe they just met recently, but have treated them kindly. They don't have a reason to necessarily fear. Yes, any vet visit is going to be fearful of a pet. Pets do not understand the vet. They're going to be scared. But do you have to be there for your pet? If you're going to make the situation worse for them, I say no. Yeah,
Asher:and I think that also brings, Brittany, Brit and I were both, we were euthanasia technicians. So I think that's also why we have a lot of, experience and feelings about this topic and why, I wanted, to bring her in on this, but like her and I used to say all the time, Yeah. Yeah. Of course no one wants to perform a euthanasia. Nobody wants to do that. It sucks. But when her and I were in the room together and we were doing the euthanasia together, we knew that animal was going to die with somebody who loved them, could honor them. And could create a moment of again, integrity, peace, calm, dignity. Yeah. And we were going to do our best job to like, you know, this is when we were at a shelter, so shelter med isn't always, your gold star medicine, but we were going to, her and I practiced all the time to make sure that and again, we'll talk about, maybe we should next, but like what euthanasia actually is and like how it's performed, but we would make sure that we were good at it basically, because we wanted to make sure that animal could go out as peacefully as possible. and that is, and that's true, and I think not everyone can do that. And if you know that emotionally or not. Capable that it's okay. It's okay to let the text do it. It's okay to let the doctor. That's what they're practicing, but we also can say because we've all been through it in this room that if you can, rally and keep yourself together, there really isn't a better honor than being with your pet in that last moment and nothing will sit with you and in the same way as is going, being there for that last moment for us. I don't know about, I think I would say all of us probably feel that way, but that's not everyone's truth. that's definitely not.
Patrick:I think that about how guilty I would
Asher:would feel
Patrick:wasn't there, right? When, and I'll go back to Luke, who was, he was. I loved Luke more than, more than anything until I got this little furry thing. And the idea of not being with him in his last moments is, I mean, I would have, I'd still regret it to this day, right? But I also wasn't
Britt:still regret it to this day. But I also wasn't hysterical. The people that helped with his passing were people he was familiar with that he was comfortable with. he had his moments with the doctor previously where he was afraid of her, but by this point in his life he was comfortable with her and he really cared about her. And obviously his auntie was there. Um, would I have left him at a vet clinic to, to be with strangers? Absolutely not. Could I leave my dog Gus at a vet clinic with strangers? Yeah, absolutely. He loves to be hugged by strangers. He, there's nobody he doesn't love. He would be totally fine. He would forget about me. So I think that's something that any owner who is going to euthanize their pet and maybe does or does not want to be there for the procedure. Should take into consideration. Do you have a fearful, stressed out dog? You probably should be there
Asher:Or a front of a family member. If it's not you, like maybe it's your partner. Maybe it's
Britt:maybe can hold it together a little more
Asher:I euthanized Zoe, my, my family dog, my parents.
Britt:one of our cats without my mom when I was like an 18.
Asher:My, I think, I can't remember my dad wasn't like, that day, my mom like just was not practicing it and wasn't. And I was like, I think I was 18, maybe younger. I don't know, 17. And I was like, yeah, I'm not letting this dog die without me. And we asked if I could be in the room. It was an emergency clinic. and that, I think that was my first, I think that was my first euthanasia because I As we mentioned in the first podcast, Duke died while I was at your pig roast.
Britt:Duglow was at it,
Asher:RIP Duke, it doesn't have to be you, it can be, and it could be a friend, if you have a friend that's invested in that pet and the point is that there doesn't need to be shame around any of it. And it's we're always talking about, it's just have a conversation about it, pre talk about these things. Like sometimes.
Britt:a plan if you can.
Asher:Yeah, and I think, this is a good time to talk about, what is euthanasia, what is the process? And, and now I think we've both seen enough versions of it done. There's a, there's a lot of different ways to perform euthanasia, but conceptually it's, it's the same thing. I think nowadays, Most places, you're basically, start to finish, you're going to walk in, usually you'll call your vet ahead of time, but most vet clinics are going to, see you regardless. if you have an appointment or not, at the very least call your vet on the way to let them know Hey, my dog's dying. My cat's dying. I have a euthanasia. you're going to come in and they're going to get your pet checked in. And most likely they're going to pre sedate your pet. and then they'll bring you into the room. So your pet will not be deceased at this point. It's just going to be sleeping. they want you to be there with your pet in peace. and they're going to place a catheter and, and usually their front arm most of the time. and that catheter is what they'll use for the actual euthanasia injection, the solution. Um, and so. usually this is when they'll have you like sit with your pet, take your time, whatever you need to do. and then they'll like check back in with you. So you can take as much time as you need, they'll usually give you like at least like 10 minutes before they come back and check in on you. and then they'll ask if you want to stay in the room and then, that's when they'll bring the tech in and then they'll, there's a solution that they use that essentially just stops your pet's heart. So they, they essentially just go to sleep, and then again, you get to sit with them for as long as you want to. Usually the vets will stay with you. Sometimes the techs will too and listen to their heart and wait for the heart to stop beating. and then they'll leave and give you some time again if you want it and then they'll come back in. and and then you'll leave from there and then usually they'll, that's when they send it out to somewhere else for the cremation, the body care essentially. and then at that point, they'll call you usually to pick up the remains if that's what you're doing. if you're not picking up remains, that's it. that's the end of the road. but a lot of places, like, you know, we did Teo's euthanasia at your house. that was thanks to, friends and stuff. But there are vets that do in home euthanasias these days. Which
Britt:best case scenario if you can afford
Asher:you can afford it.
Britt:it, that's going to be less stressful for everybody involved. but yeah, it's not, again, not accessible to everybody. And depending on the situation you're going through, not accessible.
Asher:Because if you can't, if you don't have the time for that,
Britt:or your, yeah, if your pet is, critical, then you're going to end up going to a clinic.
Asher:but it is overall, I mean, all of us have seen it and obviously some euthanasias are smoother than others, but, at the end of the day, especially if there's sedation, pre sedation involved, it's a very smooth process and it's very peaceful and gives you some time with your pet that can create some space and some dignity,
Britt:dignity,
Asher:hopefully some closure for sure. yeah, any other thoughts on that part or how to support a friend who's just gone through it?
Patrick:I think that's, for me, that's the critical is the support. when Brit had to euthanize her dog, Prim. Prim was an emergency.
Asher:was
Patrick:she had a stroke. And I was there.
Britt:Thank God.
Patrick:for me, I was there for Prim, because I love Prim. But for the most part, I was there for Brit to support her because I knew what she was going through. and I really think, and I don't think it's as bad now, but I think back like years ago, it was very common for people to dismiss the grieving process around animals.
Asher:well,
Patrick:You heard this, well, it's just a dog, or it's just a cat. I don't think you really hear that much anymore. I think people are a lot more sensitive to the fact that you're losing a member of your family,
Asher:family. Well, and especially with our age group too, so
Britt:member of your family. and especially now, the days when people are posing this question, for saying, I love animals more than I love people. and especially with our age group, too, so many millennials are not having children, they're having pets. they're really viewed more, they're more respected as a part of the family
Asher:But even though it's, viewed more that way, it's not like you have bereavement days for your pets very often.
Britt:in animal welfare, because I had a bereavement day.
Asher:had a bereavement
Britt:pet bereavement at my current job. not to mention I just took the whole week
Asher:that whole week off. But it should be that way, it should be, like Patrick is saying, it's a member of your family. Or Britt's saying, These are potentially the only, this is your family, these are your kids, you know, like not to compare it to kids because, people with kids get weird about that. But this is it.
Britt:five dogs are the dogs, the people, basically. Not humans, obviously, but the people who see me
Asher:to say
Britt:Who I wake up
Asher:get out of bed every day sometimes, like they're the reasons why, Danny's the reason why I, go for a walk every day or, Again, she's my unintentional emotional. I couldn't sleep for six months before I got her, like there has to be space for that in our society at this point
Britt:be space for in our society at this point. a lot of people are, they live for their, they live for their pets, they're alive for their pets. So many people, especially in our line of work, have said, If it wasn't for my pets, I wouldn't be here. I would've, I would've committed suicide if I wasn't here for my, you know, if it wasn't for my
Asher:And they'll, they'll put food on their, their pets plate before they put food on their own plate. And, and we all know why. if I was in that position, I think I would choose the same,
Patrick:We have really advanced in that people understand the grieving process around the loss of a pet now a lot more than they used to because not the least of which is, reason is that just more people have pets than have ever had pets before. the amount of households that have pets in the United States is insane, And as more people, everybody's gone through it and they,
Asher:And again, grief is grief. It doesn't matter what form, it doesn't matter if it's the life that you thought you were going to be living and the breakup that you had, derails that, or if it's the loss of your mom that you're super fond of, or the pet that died, like all those things are going to be grief for you and your body only knows grief the way that it knows grief, it's going to show up for you the same. Yeah, it's, you have to go through the motions. You need to, you have to make room for it, the motions, you need to, have to make it, you know, Yeah. With close death. Correct. Yeah.
Patrick:they might have a, you might have an, a great uncle, a great
Asher:great grandparent,
Patrick:but for, I would bet for the vast, for a large chunk of at least American society, their first, I don't want to say taste of, but their first experience with a, the death of a loved one is a pet.
Britt:Yeah,
Asher:Yeah. And pets come in all forms, you know?
Patrick:Flushing a pet down, you know, flushing a
Asher:A little goldfish on the toilet!
Britt:I mean, I still, I still remember my goldfish dying when I was, gosh, I don't know, six or something, my little fit, my little circus goldfish that died the day I got at home, I still remember that, because I think, especially when you're a little kid, and I think of my friends that have little kids, like how they are processing the loss of a pet, and how much do they understand about that pet being gone, that kind of
Asher:I meant to do some research about that for this episode of like, when to tell your, like, when do you bring, when do you include your kids into euthanasia, into pet euthanasia, but I didn't have
Britt:say if
Asher:time to do that research ahead of time,
Britt:work at an emergency clinic. Uh, cause I mean, I just the other day, I mean, I would say like 20 percent of my job is. going over body care with people, you know, it's not, it's not the majority of people coming in, you know, and some people come in and don't know that that's going to be the outcome of their, their visit, and just the other day we had a family, and, you know, it's tough for me, you know, dealing with grief, holding it together, that was one that was hard for me. they, I don't remember what happened with their dog. I want to say it was bloat. And they, you know, as a family, a younger family with two little kids, the one was too young to understand. He was just chilling. He was cool. the other child was hysterical and he was still only like six or seven. But he was hysterical about his dog not coming home with them. and I started crying, talking to the mom, and that little kid wasn't even in there. And then when they walked out, that kid's wailing, and the whole lobby is like heartbroken because of this little child's reaction. Yeah. So I don't even think that it was necessarily him understanding what exactly had happened, but he knew that their dog was not coming home with them. And that was really devastating for literally the entire building. that was a really hard day for everybody. So even the people that see it all day, every day at an emergency clinic, it still hits you when there's those kind of
Asher:Yeah. And I'm sure the answer is, you know, what's best for you and your family. But I think
Britt:and, and it's, that's a tough situation, too, is you just didn't have a choice.
Asher:have a choice. and I've been there, like when I worked at the vet clinic I worked in, I've been there with families where all ages, I think there was like a kid that was like two, four and like an, like a 12 year old that were there for the euthanasia. And I was like, wow, that's really cool, man. I love that the whole family was here, but they handled it. You could tell they were all there for the journey and it was like a healthy experience for
Britt:Something that I've noticed. And I think it has to do a little bit with, the different generations and how they deal with euthanasia, and pet death is, we'll have. People who are specifically waiting for other family members to show up at the clinic before they actually euthanized the pet because so many people in the family want to say goodbye
Asher:Yes. Yes. We've had
Britt:and that's very different than I think years past. we'll kind of just, and it'll be friends too. It'll be, you
Asher:whole party. Yeah.
Britt:it'd be, so and so is here for, you know, for Rover or whatever. And, uh, yeah. It's, it is really cool to see
Asher:It is. Yeah.
Britt:want to be there to support their loved one or because they love that pet, interesting.
Asher:Yeah. What do you think with Teo dying, do you have any insight now that it's been a couple of weeks? what felt the best for you as far as support goes in that moment? Like what things felt the most comforting?
Britt:most comforting? Uh, I mean, definitely having, you know, two people that I really love there for me was really important. so I think if you have good support. That's going to be monumental, unless you're the kind of person just does things on your own. But, I think, and I think the at home
Asher:That was hard for you though,
Britt:Yeah, I don't ask for it. People have to show up for me. I don't ask for it.
Asher:But I think that's good to point out, because I think it's hard for me too to
Britt:Yeah, I think if you have somebody, if you have somebody you love that's going through this and you're
Asher:Try to force yourself on them. They probably want you there.
Britt:Totally. So that was really appreciative. the vet happens to be a friend. I know that's not something that's gonna be very common for everybody, but
Asher:you happen to have a cousin
Britt:Yeah.
Asher:aggressively involved in your life.
Britt:But if you have a vet you trust, I think that's really important, to plan ahead as opposed to that, emergency room visit where you don't know those people, that's going to be a little harder for you. I think, I just think it is. and obviously the at home euthanasia is primo. That is so ideal, especially for a nervous pet. Tao hated the vet clinics. They made him nervous whether we were going to pick up pills or he was getting poked, he didn't, it was not fun for him. so I think if you're able to, if if you're able, cause again, I understand it's a privilege, but if you're able to plan ahead for your pet's death, and save up and talk, you know, reach out to clinics, that maybe do at home euthanasia, do your research. I just think that it is, it makes such a difference for you and your pet. So much more peaceful than, waiting, and I know most clinics have a designated euthanasia
Asher:euthanasia
Britt:you emergent clinics don't, but your normal clinic probably does these days, the newer buildings usually are set up for that, where they have a quiet room where they can go, you can go out a door where no one has to see you, which has not always been the case, sometimes you sit in a waiting room and yeah, but if you can plan ahead to make it where it is as quick and peaceful as possible, that is going to make your experience and your pet's experience 1, 000 times better. So if you have that opportunity, do it, do that home euthanasia if you can, it's really it's really something. That was how, I think if I had to go to a clinic, that would have been way more traumatizing
Asher:me. Yeah, for sure. what about post post death? Things that people say to you after, or ways people show up for you after.
Britt:I think the way people showed up for me, just being loving and supportive and giving me my space, I think was really helpful. the pet bereavement was incredible.
Asher:frustrated
Britt:you know, there's a lot of things that frustrate me about work and life in general, but having a job where I was able to take days off of work because they knew I was suffering Life. I mean,
Asher:I mean,
Britt:was, that was really important. having to go, if I had to go back to a retail job the next day, I would have thrown myself off a cliff. There's no, absolutely no way I would have done it. I would have been fired. Cause I just wouldn't have gone in. so I think that if you're able to give your employees time off, or if you're able to take time off to recover, I think that was take care of yourself. Don't, if you're the kind of person that has to power through and that's how you cope, then that's fine. But I'm just not that person. So I needed that time. and people just. Knowing people loved Teo meant a lot to me. like I knew they did, he's always been, he's just, he was with me all the time. So people just knew him. it's been interesting because he came to work with me all the time. So clients knew him
Asher:so clients
Britt:until this week, no, not a lot of people have brought him up. but I had two clients yesterday. One person, she must have talked to you actually, you know her,
Asher:I already know who you're
Britt:yeah, she was like,
Asher:she came in the day after he
Britt:yeah, she was like, they told me about your dog. I'm so sorry. You know, I, you loved him so much. And, so she brought him up and then another client just asked about him. so I think that was interesting to me that more people didn't bring him up originally, but now people are noticing that he's not there and it's been enough time that I'm okay.
Asher:To
Britt:about it. but I think that,
Asher:how that worked
Britt:yeah. So I think the most important thing is take the time you need, let yourself heal. Don't, don't have that. Like it's just a pet, I'm fine mentality. You don't have to do that in this day and age.
Asher:that in this
Britt:take care of yourself,
Asher:You know,
Britt:you know, this is a, I think people understand these days how big pet loss
Asher:is, um,
Britt:maybe not everybody, but I think it's really shifting, and I think it's important that you, embrace that. I'm still, I still don't think about my horse that died. I'm getting a tattoo of him next week, and I don't, have not processed that death. Don't do that to yourself. Um, it is unhealthy feeling.
Patrick:feeling. you just need to
Britt:Yeah, I still keep
Asher:keep bringing that up. If you
Britt:continuously talk about your pet dying, hang out with Petra's mom because she will bring it up many times.
Asher:know?
Britt:you guys know Her horse
Asher:horse just died. Did
Patrick:Did I mention her horse died? How do you feel about your dead
Britt:about So we're going to work on that. We're going to work on processing that. Maybe we'll have a little heart to heart with Marge and see if she wants to talk about
Asher:to
Britt:three years past.
Asher:to talk about it. And hopefully through the pain of
Britt:Yeah, yeah.
Patrick:But, uh, but getting back to Tao, When Tao was put to sleep, I was on an airplane, going to, Where was I going to
Asher:Singapore, yeah.
Britt:your most
Patrick:yeah. And, but fortunately, I got to spend the day before with Teo, I spent the, I
Britt:He had a rough night the night before.
Patrick:Yeah. I got to spend pretty much the entire evening with him.'cause Brit was, Brit had to work. So I just spent time with him
Asher:made sure
Patrick:and just made sure he was, he just wa I just didn't want him to be alone. And I know she didn't either. Um. But, you know, I mean, and he's, he wasn't even my dog, that, which goes to your point about the, it's not only your pets that you care about, but it's the pets that you spend a lot of time
Asher:it's the pets that you spend a lot of time
Britt:pets, like, you, you feel that shit too. I know. And
Asher:It's your extended family, your friends pets. if you just would've been like, Oh, by the way, I euthanized Teo. me
Britt:I mean, me petting Teo. I love Teo.
Asher:obviously that's your choice, and we would've respected it, but dude. Like, I'm so grateful that I'm not living in New York City anymore and that, I could be here or get to say goodbye to him or that, Patrick and I talked about it before. you guys all, we were all talking about it, but. it's lean on your community, lean on your friends, like they, they want to be a part of that process with you and they want to
Britt:you. and support
Asher:want to
Britt:You want to pretend that your pet isn't drastic, you're declining shockingly, even though you, it makes no sense and you think you're fine.
Asher:Yeah, I was more referring to pretending that you're fine versus pretending that your dog was declining. Yeah, I
Britt:I was doing both of those things because it was shocking how
Asher:It was shocking. Yeah, it was.
Britt:sometimes that's just the case. You don't, you just don't expect it. It's not always that.
Asher:And it's hard because the human science is like, dig, dig, dig, find the reason. Animal science is like, yeah, uh, your dog is definitely dying. don't exactly know why it could be these four things, but in order to find out we're going to have to do thousands of dollars of diagnostics. Do you want to do that? And you're like, will it change the outcome? That's
Britt:you like to do spinal surgery on your 12 year old dog? Probably not, right? Okay, cool. So
Asher:And I do think that's worth mentioning. I know this podcast is already so long, but I do think it's worth mentioning that. it's okay to not keep, to continue down the path of diagnostics. I would advise you, and this could, this, we probably should have had a whole chunk on this, but like, when it, when your pet is declining and your vet says, these are your two options, palliative care, which means, you know, I palliative care
Patrick:I have no idea what that is.
Asher:Are you serious?
Patrick:I'm dead serious. you guys have these jargons that
Asher:palliative care is for humans too. I'm sorry. Okay. So palliative care is keeping something comfortable until it's dying day. I'm sure there's a better
Britt:definition. It's basically hospice.
Asher:It's hospice essentially. so for, hospice. Yeah. So do you want to do hospice with your pet palliative care or do you want to do all these extensive things? Of course, if you have the means to do it. And again, it's,
Britt:not going to cause extra suffering to your
Asher:But the question I would ask your vet is, will this change the outcome of my pet? If the vet says no, probably not.
Britt:if it's only going to give them a couple weeks, a couple months.
Asher:Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. And that was something else I wanted to talk about was like, some people make the choice to euthanize their pets because of things that we wouldn't necessarily euthanize our pets for.
Britt:Sometimes it's financial.
Asher:and it's okay like I would like to propose that if you can't afford for your dog's leg To be amputated and your dog is going to suffer as a result and there's no other option I'm not saying that there isn't another way, but I'm just saying let's all be compassionate that all of our bottom lines are different and that accessible care and euthanasia is part of accessible care and that you know Again, that could be a whole other political conversation, but I do think it's important to acknowledge that, if you're at a point where your vet is saying, we don't have a lot of choices, euthanasia is one of them, and that's the only choice that makes sense for you, your family, your finances. It's okay. it's still a compassionate act. You still loved your pet. You still gave your pet a loving home, even if it was a short term home. Because, like we said, our pets don't live for, our whole lives. it's okay.
Patrick:it's Macaw.
Asher:Unless you are graced with a macaw like me, in which case I have to find, if anyone wants a macaw after I die, let me know. Cause I don't know who to will them to at this point. So working on Harper, but Yeah, so.
Britt:dogs and cats do not live long enough. It's
Asher:and it's yeah. And that's where
Britt:And that's what another vet said Another one of our wise vets that we work with said that, that maybe would be helpful to people. It's like, you're not supposed to outlive your pet. That pet is supposed to die before you do because their lives are painfully short. So if your pet is a super senior and you're heartbroken about that. That's okay, but you're not expected to outlive them. or you're expected to outlive them. They're not expected to outlive you. So saying goodbye to your pet is totally normal, and natural.
Asher:Yeah. Yeah. Because
Britt:Because we're gonna live to be 70 to 90 and they're not going to be.
Asher:lucky. That means Patrick's dying, tomorrow. HAHAHAHAHAHA Ha
Britt:we're
Patrick:How old, how old am I? One foot in the grave is how
Asher:Yeah.
Patrick:I
Asher:Yeah. this is great, you guys. I We could talk about this
Britt:could really do this all day.
Asher:do a part two, but I think we've uh, We've,
Britt:Covered a lot of
Asher:we've brought it in our listeners for a very long time,
Britt:Yeah. Thanks for coming on this journey with us
Asher:No, thank you. And Brit for for joining us, for being vulnerable, for talking about a subject that almost brought me to tears many times because, Teo is our boy.
Britt:Best boy. this podcast is dedicated to Tao.
Asher:episode specifically is dedicated to Teo. The
Britt:The best boy in all the land. by all.
Asher:Yeah, please. Yeah.
Patrick:Well, thanks everybody for listening, and we will see you on the next episode. Have a great rest of your day. Bye bye.
Asher:love you to death. Bye. Bye.