E5 "Dive into Life: Cold Water Secrets, Self-Care After 50, and the Power of Sara Barnes"

 Get ready for an invigorating episode as Laura brings back the incredible Sara Barnes to the show! This time, they dive into the transformative power of self-care and redefining life after 50. Brace yourself for an inspiring discussion on the wonders of cold water swimming and its incredible benefits, from banishing pain and inflammation to unlocking a profound sense of freedom and connection with nature.

But that's not all – Laura and Sara unravel the secrets behind combining cold and hot therapy for a holistic approach to healing and rejuvenation. Discover a world where embracing the chill can lead to unparalleled well-being.

As the episode unfolds, Sara opens up about her journey with cold water immersion and how it has seamlessly woven into her daily self-care routine. They shed light on the unique benefits of cold water dipping, especially for menopausal women. Sara spills the beans on her experiences and the inspiration behind her two books on cold water swimming and menopause.

In a heartwarming twist, Sara emphasizes the power of vulnerability and the importance of sharing personal stories to foster a strong sense of community and support. The conversation wraps up with invaluable tips for aspiring authors and a guide on where to connect with the phenomenal Sara Barnes online.

Get ready to be captivated, inspired, and maybe even convinced to take the plunge into the world of cold water therapy!

Takeaways

·        Treating oneself and redefining life in midlife is important for personal growth and well-being.

·        Cold water swimming can have various benefits, including reducing pain and inflammation, promoting healing, and providing a sense of freedom and connection with nature.

·        Starting small and finding a safe and comfortable way to experience cold water swimming is key for beginners.

·        Combining cold and hot therapy can enhance the benefits of both and promote overall well-being.

You can find Sara on Instagram @Bumblebarnes

 Her books are ;

Laura is a life and menopause Coach and a wedding Celebrant. Find out more below.

Free Menopause Symptoms Tracker https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e61009edab1950197f83896/t/62a0798f79934a0dfbdca666/1654684094105/Free+menopause+symptoms+tracker+

Email: laura@marvellousmidlife.co.uk

Website: www.marvellousmidlife.co.uk

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurashuckburgh/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marvellous_midlife/

Website : https:www.thechateaucelebrant.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marvellousmidlife/

Transcript

Laura (00:03.79)
Welcome to the Marvelous Midlife podcast, a show where I talk to inspirational midlifers who are making the most of midlife and beyond. Now today's guest is Sara Barnes, who has very kindly come on to the show for the second time. And I just want to tell you why, because it's.

It's interesting and it's sort of a bit annoying and also fairly funny really as well. In that, we did a wonderful conversation about two weeks ago and I was so pleased. I felt like it went really well and I felt like the podcast was going to be so good for you to listen to. And then I came off the podcast recording and my father had phoned and I spoke to my father straight after the recording and he told me that he had leukemia.

And my kind of, and even talking about it, I can feel myself feeling very emotional about how I felt about that. It's much better news now, but when he told me, I was just, you know, I sort of fell apart a bit. And then I went straight back into work mode after speaking to him and started deleting a few test studios on Riverside and then deleted my episode that I'd done with Sara. And I just felt sick. I pressed the button and felt completely sick. And then I had to tell her that I'd done this.

And Sara was absolutely amazing and very understanding, which I appreciated so much and has been so generous and said she'd come on again and here she is. So I'm so pleased to welcome you again today, Sara. I'm just going to do a quick intro about you. You are Sara Barnes, a cold water maven, as I like to think of you, and a published author now. And today we're going to be talking about pushing through our comfort zones, the benefits of cold water swimming on a

mental health and signing a book deal at 60. Welcome Sara.

Sara Barnes (01:57.299)
Hi, it's lovely to be back again and don't worry at all. I do those sort of things all the time. It's just one of those things. Don't worry.

Laura (02:05.646)
It is, and we were talking earlier, and it's just sometimes though it feels so bad in the moment that you've done something so, almost it felt like I was just being stupid, but then afterwards I thought I've got to be kind to myself. You just had some terrible news and it's not the end of the world. And here we are again and it really isn't. So last time we spoke, you were telling me that you had just had a cold water,

bath or a wooden cold water, tell us about that. Just deliver it to your new home. You've moved home recently in Cumbria and you've had this thing kind of hoisted in. Tell us about that.

Sara Barnes (02:46.451)
decided that I needed to downsize as both kids now have more or less left home. So it is just me. So for the first time in my life, I was able to choose where I live. And I spent a few months, I somewhat say years thinking about it. I wasn't sure whether to stay in Cumbria, whether to move south. I really didn't know. And in the end,

I saw this little house, Victorian Terrace, and I fell in love with it. And you know some houses do just hug you. This one did. And I was fortunate enough to get it. I had originally thought that my beautiful Japanese bathtub would fit down the alleyway. I just was convinced it would. But when it came to it, no, it wouldn't fit. It was just too wide. So I contemplated having it cut.

down but then I thought well is it going to be the same tub if I do that because you can literally sit on the bottom of it and be completely submerged which is a wonderful feeling and I can do someassaults assorts in it if I really want to. But so I had to think about it and I put out a call for help on Instagram I even offered it up for sale everybody said get a crane.

Laura (03:55.822)
You

Sara Barnes (04:06.867)
Now, I imagine one of those huge, great construction site cranes, you know, that tower above skyscrapers and so on. I thought, no way, that's just too excessive. No way. In the end, I did get a crane. A local company delivered or arrived with a 45 ton crane, took up the whole of the street and they hoisted this little tub over the...

really discreetly in fact, but I'd strapped my GoPro to one of its pipes because it attaches to a wood burning stove, so I can have it hot. I've had it hot about four times in the four years I've had it. So anyway, I strapped a GoPro to it and off they went. And so I've got this wonderful film taken from my tub of next door's chimney pots. It's actually they ended up swinging it over next door's house, not mine.

and thank goodness they were away. I was really worried. I assumed that the Crane people had insurance. And anyway, it swung over the rooftops and then was placed very carefully exactly where I wanted it on some new decking I was having built in the back garden. So it's there and I can go in it every single morning if I want to, which is a lovely way to start the day. Cold water immersion.

But I've very recently added something even more special, I feel. I've added a sauna. It's not a wood -fired sauna, it's the electric stove. So now I can do hot and cold therapy, which I don't know if you've ever tried it, but it takes the cold water swimming to another level. It's a really strange feeling. We can talk about it later if you want. So now I've got this little garden spa behind my...

Laura (05:51.342)
I've never tried it.

Sara Barnes (05:59.571)
very ordinary Victorian terrace. And I was just looking at it this morning thinking, well done, Sara, this may seem excessive. It feels strange to treat yourself because we don't ever, I don't think as women, as mothers, as people, it feels wrong to, but I've done it. And I think, well done. You've seen it through. It's there. Enjoy it.

Laura (06:28.718)
Absolutely. So there's a, sounds like there's a little bit of resistance to the pleasure that you've made for yourself because of, I don't know, what is that with women and just not allowing ourselves to sometimes do and have the things that we know will be really good for our souls.

Sara Barnes (06:49.715)
I think it's a feeling of guilt because I think we're hardwired to nurture, to look after other people. We're not hardwired to look after ourselves. And this is very much me looking after myself as I grow older, as I redefine how I want my life to look now that I don't have the children as a major responsibility. I have the cat.

Laura (07:03.808)
It's true.

Laura (07:14.57)
Yes.

Sara Barnes (07:17.991)
That is really my only responsibility other than the bricks and mortar and obviously myself.

Laura (07:23.79)
It's interesting.

because I feel that I have a certain amount of guilt from the lifestyle choices that I've made with my son is still in the UK, he's 23. And I sometimes think to myself, well, you know, perhaps I should be back there, you know, giving, so having him, giving him a home that perhaps he needs and all of those things. And I still have this sort of innate desire to look after him and protect him. And then that's juxtaposed by this feeling, well, actually,

I've looked after him for 20 years almost, pretty much on my own for most of it as well. And I think, well, actually it's my time to do some things that I want to do. And he's always welcome to come here and stay wherever I'm staying, whether it's in my van or in a home. But I do think that's true, that we are so hardwired to be caring for everybody else. But what I do find interesting about menopause and about this time of our lives is that actually with the decreasing levels of

and estrogen, our caring hormone does switch off a little bit.

Sara Barnes (08:32.243)
Thank goodness.

Laura (08:32.526)
And so therefore, yes, thank goodness. So therefore we can then start to think about ourselves a little bit more and give ourselves some of what we need. And I think that's so important. So I'm so pleased to hear that you've got your cold water tub and now you're sauna that I was gonna ask you about anyway. So does that cost a fortune to heat up? Have you had any bills yet for it?

Sara Barnes (08:55.987)
No, I haven't. I understood that it wasn't too expensive. Somebody suggested 20 pence an hour. I don't think that can be true. But even if it costs me five pounds a week, which is the cost of a bottle of wine from Lidl, it's going to do me more good having that heat exposure once a day than a bottle of wine once a week would do me.

I believe anyway. So it's my choice. You choose your poison, don't you?

Laura (09:25.454)
Well, definitely, I think, yes. Yeah, you do, you do choose your poison. So as we're talking about it, it would be really interesting to know the benefits and talk about cold water swimming and then we could talk about the difference with the cold and the hot together. Because when I first discovered you, Sara,

This was many moons ago, sort of probably four years ago now, and you were doing cold water swimming before it became quite popular like it is now. Many more people are doing it now, but you were one of the first people that I ever saw on Instagram in a beautiful location in Cumbria, dipping yourself at every time of the year, and I just thought you were so brave, and I'm not a big swimmer, so to me it was just like, I just don't know how you do it, and I was in awe of the fact that you did it, and now there's so much more talk about the benefits of cold water.

swimming in menopause and you know menopause is my thing so can you talk to us about what those benefits are?

Sara Barnes (10:23.955)
Well, for me, the initial motivation was to reduce the pain and inflammation in my legs following an operation. And my kids said, right, mom, come on, we're going to get you outside, come down to the lake, we're going to have a picnic, have a dip. And that initial immersion in quite cold water is probably 12, 13 degrees Celsius. I couldn't feel my legs anymore, so I couldn't feel the pain. And I remember...

kind of looking down at them through the clear water and they were still all scarred and a bit swollen. And I just thought, but I don't need you for this. I'm here. I can float. I can use my arms. I can look at the mountains around me, the sky, the clouds. I'm back in the outdoors where I need to be. So that kind of triggered this. This is the way forward for me. And the so the the.

the sort of stopping or pausing of the emotional pain I was in and the physical pain were key, absolutely key. And at that point, I didn't really know that this outdoor swimming thing would become as massive as it has, and it's become almost a cult. And sometimes I feel that I'm trying to persuade people to do it as well because of these benefits. Now, the benefits are different for...

every single person and they'll be different for each person every time they go in and I think that's the fascination that's why I'm so hooked on it really because it's going to feel different every time I do it so it's going to feel different for every single other person so there's always something to be taken from it and I know this sounds a bit hippy -ish but

The water never asks anything of you. And I think as women as well, people are always wanting a piece of us. When you walk into that water, it doesn't want anything from you. All it does is give you stuff. And I think that's almost a very spiritual thing. And I think that's why potentially, why are the more women doing it still than men? Because I think for women, we are always giving, giving, giving.

Sara Barnes (12:49.907)
This isn't a situation where we no longer, we're not giving. We are giving, being given back to, and I think it's time that that happened more often for us.

Laura (12:54.19)
Yeah.

Laura (13:02.254)
Absolutely, that's really interesting. I've been doing quite a lot of work at the moment on getting out of my own head, you know, that kind of thoughts process. And I work a lot with my clients as well, that we're always very much in our own heads and thinking of things all the time, thoughts and not sometimes that they're not even true. And then we get carried away with the thought and then we can become anxious and always ruminating about the past. And so one of the things that I believe,

is really important is for us as people to get into some sort of flow state where we are challenged enough that we are coming out of our head and doing something that makes us come into our body more. So therefore we are not thinking. And the times that I've been into cold water when I've been in France and it's never been as cold as where you are, but I know that that is for me because it's a challenge for me as well. It's a challenge for me because there's a bit of discomfort within it as well. And so,

So that challenge and then that immersion into something that's so natural as water does have a really positive effect. I've never come out of the water and not felt good. So in terms of, you know, there's all this talk about it for menopause, isn't there, at the moment, and how it can help with things like anxiety. And I think that's possibly one of the reasons is that we can at least be in the moment in the water and fully engaged in something.

Do you feel that when you're in the water?

Sara Barnes (14:32.819)
Totally. Yes, I think you have to put everything else aside because you're actually often for me anyway, you're in a survival situation, especially when the water is very cold or like the other day it was fairly fast flowing, but I'm experienced enough to spot a place where I know it's going to be safe. But I'm still in survival mode. I know I'm going to put my body under stress, physical stress and

you go totally into your body and you can feel every single stone as you walk in and you know if one's rocking or slipping and suddenly you find that you every sense is alive. You know, I know I wear an ear -prim on my hands and feet in the winter, that's for the cold, but I can still feel my way and I know if...

I'm going to be knocked off balance by the water, how it feels against my legs. So all these little things and it's very intuitive. And you know when it doesn't feel safe, there's just something about it. And that's a physical reaction to the state of the water, the wind or, you know, the sound. It all becomes very intuitive, very sensual almost.

and you are there physically. I don't know where your mind's gone, it's left on the bank very often or in your car or something.

Laura (16:02.414)
How wonderful. Amazing. I saw a real of you this week and you had your back kind of like against a sort of mini waterfall. And I could see there, that was a challenging one. I could see it in you. And that looked, I was just like, oh my life, that looks just, oh. I just couldn't. It's almost like I feel as though I'm not there yet, but I would like to. So in terms of...

Sara Barnes (16:12.187)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Laura (16:29.422)
getting to a stage where you are now, you know, you've been doing it for many years, for a beginner who is not used to this and would like to, you know, literally dip their toe in, what would you say? How do you start cold water swimming? What's the safest way to do it?

Sara Barnes (16:46.579)
I think the key thing to remember is you don't have to swim. You don't have to be able to be a great swimmer. You really don't because you can literally just find, depending where you live, of course, find somewhere that's got a nice shallow entry. It's not fast flowing if it's a river and you can literally walk in up to your knees. Sit down.

splash water on you and you'll suddenly, you'll feel a bit silly, you know, if it's in a fairly public place. But that's all you need to do. I think the key thing is to get over that hurdle of the fact that you're in your swimsuit in public, but not in a swimming pool. And I think for some people that is a massive hurdle. I think more so than the cold. Yeah.

Laura (17:38.542)
Yeah, I'd not thought of that. I hadn't even trust my mind. I hadn't trust my mind that bit. So yeah, that's an interesting point that you're in the, and some people don't, some people are quite body conscious of themselves and you are in quite a vulnerable state when you're in a swimsuit, I feel.

Sara Barnes (17:44.827)
No, um...

Sara Barnes (17:52.379)
Mm -hmm.

Sara Barnes (17:58.161)
think so. So the other way to do it of course is to get one of those pop -up sort of plastic tubs and you can get them from Amazon. They don't have to be very expensive. Fill that with water from the garden hose or like I do at my daughter's, I get a bucket and I fill it from the kitchen tap and tip it in. And then get your swimsuit on or just strip down to nothing and climb in. Sit down, see how you feel.

you're in a really safe environment then, but it's all about getting water that's the temperature you're not used to onto all of your body and try if you can to splash your face if you can and I find I'm too tall to do this in those little tubs. Submerge, get your head under because that hits differently again. And then there's a bit on the back of your neck, it's called the mammalian gland and if you get

that's emerged in your shoulders, that hits again as well. So it's all about experimenting and feeling how it feels on your body. You don't actually have to go to a big lake or a frozen fjord or you know somewhere dramatic like that or the sea. You can even do it in your own bath at home but what I would advise against is having a cold shower. They're nasty.

or nasty, as I should say, living up north, but they're nasty, nasty things because they're aggressive. You know, they fall on your head.

Laura (19:22.894)
That's interesting. You have nasty, I say nasty.

Laura (19:30.094)
Yeah, but then there's quite a lot of people sort of saying, oh, it's really good to have a cold shower for two minutes or something, and I've never been able to do that, and isn't it meant to be good for your hair because it closes the follicles or something? That's another thing.

Sara Barnes (19:43.539)
Well, maybe, yeah. But you could do that. No, I wouldn't do it full stop. I hate it. So it's really strange that I'll go and sit under a waterfall. And that is, that's quite an aggressive thing because, and that's probably why my face was sort of scrunched up, because it's the force of the water on your head and on your body is intense. But.

I had been submerged first, I didn't just go stick my head in the waterfall, which would be like having a shower. It's just too much, it's too much of a shock for your body. And if it's on your head, I don't know, you get this thing called brain freeze, where you can get a really bad headache. And if you have your head in the cold water for too long, you're just going to feel horrible, you know, really horrible. So no, I wouldn't have a cold shower.

Laura (20:35.982)
Yeah, so it's about, sorry, it's about starting small then, or when you feel comfortable to do it. So that could be for somebody in their bath, it could be immersing themselves into one of those tubs that they seem to be quite popular now. I've seen people in them, you can even put ice in them, can't you, if you want to, an ice bath or whatever you have an ice tub. And then for me though,

Sara Barnes (20:39.635)
stand in your path.

Laura (21:03.246)
I like the idea of the nature aspect of it, you know, to go somewhere beautiful. So the times that I've enjoyed it the most is when I've been in France and it's been warm and I'm in the river and it's beautiful and I can look around. I remember going in once and a massive dragonfly landed on my arm. And that was just such a special moment, those simple pleasures of.

Sara Barnes (21:06.067)
Hmm.

Laura (21:26.35)
nature and being in a flow state for me feels like the best way, but it's good. I think it's good that people can just try it. And I would encourage anybody to try it and just let us know if we've inspired you to go in. Well, not so much me, but you, Sara. So going on from that then, what about the benefits of cold and hot?

Because I know, I've heard of that, that going into cold water, plunging into cold water first and then going into a sauna, a lot of sort of Swedish people, many people have a sauna in their garden, Denmark, all of those kind of cultures. And so there must be a benefit to it. So what are they and what do you feel when you do that?

Sara Barnes (22:12.723)
Well, the science behind it, and I won't be able to describe it accurately, but I do understand it, there's something about cold receptors and hot receptors and growth hormones. You're not going to grow bigger if you go in and do contrast therapy, which is its name, but anything that's broken or damaged within your body will repair more quickly. So the growth hormones actually

work on the cellular level. So for example, if you've got scar tissue or you've broken a bone or something like that, it's going to encourage the cells to repair themselves. And that can work on a physical level, emotional level as well. It's a healing thing and it feels healing.

Laura (23:00.174)
Which...

Sara Barnes (23:10.803)
you're going from, yes, you go into the cold first. So I don't plunge, I just slip in quietly and because I've got neighbours, you know, now I'm living in town, I've got neighbours. So I slip in quietly and I just do my usual thing, which is just really feel it on every part of my body.

Laura (23:19.086)
I'm seeing you.

Sara Barnes (23:35.795)
And then I have preheated the sauna. I go into the sauna. It's about 80 degrees. And at first you don't feel the heat. But then if you're a quarter of an hour, I sit there and you gradually feel that heat coming into your body and you feel like a shiver down your back as the cold is released and you start warming, rewarming. And it is you can feel that it is working deep down.

obviously you can't feel yourself, but you know that it's doing something on a very deep level and then you go back into the cold and that time it feels more intense and but you are wanting to go back in the cold because you've got quite hot. So there's kind of a, I wonder if it's like masochism really, you sort of...

Laura (24:24.014)
Yes.

Sara Barnes (24:28.755)
you're too hot so you want to go in the cold, but when you're in the cold it feels too cold so you want to go in the hot. And it's that repeat cycle. And again, pleasure and pain. It's nothing to do with... Your brain does switch off, but I find that it's less of a physical thing than just going into cold water in nature. Because it's almost...

Laura (24:36.462)
Pleasure and pain, pleasure and pain.

Laura (24:53.71)
Is that because you don't have the warming up afterwards? Because for me, I don't like being cold. So for me to go into cold water and then think afterwards that whole thing about getting warm again, it reminds me of when I was younger and used to go to a swimming pool and you'd come out, you'd be shaking and that's inside. And I've got this sort of, I don't like to be freezing cold like that. So the idea of then hopping into something that's really warm seems very appealing.

Sara Barnes (25:03.761)
Mmm.

Sara Barnes (25:15.347)
and

Well, yes, and I think it takes away the, if you're risk averse, it sort of takes away the fear of being too cold because you know you're going into somewhere warm. So it is a completely different thing.

Laura (25:27.47)
Yes.

Absolutely. And then that, yeah. And then that cellular regeneration part with the growth hormone, well, I mean, that's like a double whammy of goodness, isn't it? If you're regenerating cells in any way, and especially when we get to our age, we want to be as healthy as possible. And so it sounds like it's got some really major health benefits.

Sara Barnes (25:41.745)
Mm -hmm.

Sara Barnes (25:52.915)
If you do it last thing in the day, the idea is to do that repeat cycle and then you do your last dip and then you go back into the warm just to warm through, not get sweaty again, just to warm through. And then if you perhaps have a quick shower to rinse off and then go to bed, you'll sleep really well because your body is still trying to get rid of the heat. So,

For menopausal women, it's a good thing as well because you are getting rid of the heat, your core is colder.

Laura (26:32.334)
Oh yeah, so in terms of like maybe some symptoms of like women who get either hot flushes or night sweats, it could be very beneficial. That's really fascinating. I think it's something to explore for sure. And I wonder, you'll have to start selling tickets to your garden.

Sara Barnes (26:36.883)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Sara Barnes (26:48.947)
Well, I had a couple of friends around and I'd had pizzas ready for them. So we had our pizzas and dandelion and burdock pop. And then we went and I said, right in the tub. And I was quite sort of in my lead role. And it was really good. The three of us managed to fit in and then we all had to go out and line up to climb up the steps into the tub.

Lots of giggling and it was really good fun. But what I do when I'm in there in the morning is I listen to podcasts. So, and it's just, I'm there, it takes me say an hour, which is quite a big chunk out of your day. But what better way to start your day knowing that you're doing something good for yourself. You're snatching a bit of time for yourself.

in a way that's going to be good for you physically and mentally as well.

Laura (27:50.894)
Sounds like a wonderful act of self -care, Sara, to do that. And you say, you know, an hour seems like a long time, but really is it? You know, if you go to a gym, you would possibly do a class for an hour. If I go for a dog walk, and by the time I get back, I've given myself that time as well. And it's so...

beneficial to us as women to be doing something that nourishes us, like our souls and our self care. And also if it's got health benefits as well. Then it's so worth that hour, my goodness me, it sounds like a perfect way to start the day.

Sara Barnes (28:27.251)
I can't do it every day because actually physically I'd rather be going for a walk then come back, sit in my tub and then the sauna and then I'm extending the time that it takes half a day gone. But some people sit and scroll through social media for an hour at a time which is not doing you any good really.

Laura (28:38.126)
And that's half a day gone.

Laura (28:48.078)
Cuz I'm clean.

Absolutely, and I actually saw my average of social media this week, and my average was one hour on Instagram, and I was just like, really, I know I have to be on there for work, but it's just, it is very good to just be aware of how much time, so it's about what we spend our time on. And often when I'm working with people, and we're talking about creating more healthy habits to help them on their menopause and midlife transition, people say, well, I don't know I've got time to do that.

Sara Barnes (29:05.907)
Okay.

Laura (29:19.95)
And I say, well, we've all got the same amount of time in a day. It's about what you are giving your time, your energy to. And so it's about then what is important to you. Because it can otherwise, it's just an excuse if you just say, you know, I haven't got time. It's a good way of procrastinating and just not wanting to do something. So we've all got the same amount of time and it's just how we divvy that time up. And everybody's busy.

but we still have to, I think it's really crucial that we find carve out bits of time in our day for ourselves. Definitely.

Sara Barnes (29:54.675)
Absolutely, yeah.

Laura (29:56.334)
So from your passion of cold water swimming, you have written a book, you've written two books now. One of them is called The Cold Fix and that is about your cold water swimming journey. Is that more factual, that book? And I know you've also written a fiction book which has elements of your cold water swimming and menopause. So talk to us about...

your books and how you've been signed as a published author at the age of 60, which is amazing.

Sara Barnes (30:28.371)
It's been a lifelong dream and I know it is for a lot of people. I just kept kicking at the door. I kept submitting my ideas, submitting first three chapters and synopsis on and on and on and talking about it to family and and eventually it just happened. So that, you know, it sounds like it was easy. It wasn't. It was very, very hard. And I went through a lot of

personal sort of questioning why am I still trying to do this and surely if you haven't been published by now you should give up and I thought no no no I'm not going to give up I have something to say I love writing I think I write quite well. So when I got published by vertebrate books I was absolutely thrilled but then I started to get imposter syndrome which is really bizarre and I thought nobody will want to read this. Yeah.

Yeah, who are you? You're Sara Barnes. Yeah, who are you? You're nobody. And you have to really deal with that because it's going to spoil your pleasure and your excitement. And so I just started doing festivals and author talks and try to get more confident about the fact that I am a published author and to believe in myself that, you know, it was OK to be happy.

Again, we touch on that again, don't we? It's okay to allow yourself to be proud, to feel you've achieved something. And so that book, both of the books are about desire, actually. The first book was about my desire to get back into the outdoors. So it's quite an intimate book about how I felt when I was lying, not able to walk. And...

having been very active. And then I interviewed 16 people around the world. What is it about the cold that you love? And all of their stories were very intimate, very detailed. They'd come from bad places. The water had kind of helped them. So it's a narrative nonfiction. In the second book, it follows on really in my journey, although it's fiction.

Sara Barnes (32:49.843)
And it's about the desire to be desired and to desire as you grow older and to not give up that burning desire to live life, to love life, to fall in love again, to want to have sex, to want to deal with your menopausal symptoms which are stopping you having sex. It's quite gritty in a way. It is a love story.

But it's it goes I was just listening to a bit today and I thought, oh my goodness, did I really go into that much detail? And I thought, well, why not? That's what happens, you know, to women when they're going through the menopause. You find that you're being prodded and poked and examined and talking about stuff that you never, you know, you never you thought was very personal, but you need to talk about it in order to get support. And there are, you know, ways of.

Laura (33:24.302)
Hahaha!

Yes?

Sara Barnes (33:46.971)
improving some of the symptoms, but if you don't talk about them, nobody's going to know you've got them. So one of the aims of that book was to try and open up the conversation even further than the current one about the menopause and growing older is. And so when I saw that article in The Guardian saying cold water swimming helps with the menopause, I thought, yes, yes, it does. And that's what I've written about in the winter of our lives. You know, please somebody listen.

pick up the book, read it, see, you know, it's all in there. Cold water swimming can alleviate some of the symptoms of the menopause. And I think one of them that I've found is it increases your confidence because as you grow older, you lose that. It increases your, I don't know, your feel good, your fire in your belly. It really does. And I was reading somewhere that,

There's something about the cold that increases estrogen as well and testosterone. Now we need both of those to feel good, to feel desirable. So if that's true, cold water swimming really does help with some of the symptoms of the menopause.

Laura (35:01.966)
I'm going straight out afterwards, going to plunge myself into the cold sea.

Sara Barnes (35:05.903)
Good for you!

Laura (35:09.998)
I shall be putting it, I shall be videoing it as well, just to make sure that it's there. There's a few things in there, so thank you for sharing all of that, because there's quite a lot in there, but there's a couple of things that I picked up on. And one of them is that whole pleasure aspect of when we are getting older. And then another part of it, which I'd like to talk about is being vulnerable. So the pleasure aspect.

Sara Barnes (35:14.003)
I'm going to go to bed.

Laura (35:36.448)
Yes, I think it's really important as menopause aul women that we do start to allow ourselves to feel pleasure. Because again, it's that whole thing about, you know, we often just don't think that we're worthy enough to feel pleasure or to have the things that we want.

And actually, it's about taking back control of that. And I think from my point of view or from my own experience is that now I'm at the age that I am at 54, I feel as though I'm more in control, especially of my body and what sort of sexual pleasure that I want rather than it being about. I think when I was younger, it was about pleasing, pleasing people.

and kind of that's what I thought I should be doing, whereas now it's about what I want and what I want to be doing, not what I ever think I should be doing. And that's the same with everything I do now. When there's these shoulds, we live in a world full of shoulds, whereas I, oh God, I should be doing that because if I don't, I feel guilty or I, well, we've got to get rid of the shoulds. It's now more about the coulds, what could we do? And I think that's...

That's a really important thing that we have to start honouring our sexuality throughout our lives from 50 onwards, from 40 onwards. And there's no reason just because we are going through menopausal symptoms and maybe we've got a dry vagina or we've got all of this itchy skin and things. There isn't things that we can do about it, whatever that might be, so that we can have pleasure if and when we choose to.

Sara Barnes (36:58.227)
Yeah.

Sara Barnes (37:07.763)
Mm -hm. Absolutely. And that's exactly what I was talking about in the bit I was listening to this morning. And I thought, yeah, this happens. So.

Laura (37:20.11)
Yeah, and that vulnerability about sharing, Sara, I think is really important. When I first started doing my Instagram account about four years ago, the time that I saw you, or started sort of seeing you on there, or however long ago it was, I started sharing my journey, and I remember thinking, oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm sharing this. What are people going to think? That's what my first thought was. Because I think very much English people especially, and I feel as though I was brought up like that, you shouldn't be sharing it.

Sara Barnes (37:22.449)
Mm -hmm.

Sara Barnes (37:40.979)
Mm -hmm.

Laura (37:50.016)
of that stuff that's private and personal and people don't want to know you keep that to yourself in about periods and everything but actually it's so natural we need to be talking about those things because then we can help each other and we don't feel alone on the journey and after I'd started sharing things that were quite intimate I remember people coming back to me saying I'm so pleased that you shared that Laura because that's exactly how I feel so now if ever I've got like a moment when I think or don't know whether I should share that I just think well if it helps one person to

Sara Barnes (38:19.475)
Mm.

Laura (38:19.872)
to feel less alone, then it's worth it. I can cope with the fact that, let me get over my own ego and just let it help somebody. So I think it's wonderful and I can't wait to read your book. And we've had a, that's another thing, Sara's publisher sent me the book to Mallorca where I am. And then for one reason or another, it's gone back to the publisher because I couldn't get down to the post office to get it. So I still haven't read it yet. But now we've been talking about it more today. I can't wait to get my hands on it actually.

Sara Barnes (38:48.179)
Mm -hmm.

Laura (38:49.776)
or the audio version, which I love an audio book. So where can people find you on audio then? Like on Audible or where would they get your book?

Sara Barnes (38:59.187)
Well, it's on Amazon. There's the three versions, e -book, so Kindle, audio or paperback. But I've been listening to it on Spotify, which with Prime, with, no, Premier Spotify, you get free audio books, which I didn't realise. So I've been listening to it. The narrator is amazing, Kristin Somebody. And...

Laura (39:09.004)
Okay.

Sara Barnes (39:28.051)
How else could you? Book shops would have the paperback. They wouldn't have the audio. I guess whatever platform you listen to, audio books, downloads on. So Amazon is probably the big one, Spotify, obviously. And it's worth it. It's 11 hours long, which, and there's 50 chapters. So it's bite -sized. You can listen to it for half an hour. You'll get about...

three chapters in that, I guess. I can't do my maths, I'm not going to even try. But you know, it's bite -sized chunks and there's four main characters in it. And it's very clearly labeled each chapter with who the chapter's point of view is from and what time of year, because it spans from October through to February. And there's the four different characters. So I was trying to kind of mark it clearly, so to, because it's...

does change and I didn't want it to chop and change so much that the reader just thinks, oh, I can't get that, I can't follow it. But yeah, gradually their lives get intertwined as they move through the story.

Laura (40:38.542)
Oh, it sounds good. It sounds very interesting. Have you got any more books in you, do you think, Sara? Is this like the first of many, or the second of many?

Sara Barnes (40:44.883)
I have written another two full -length novels. I started years ago on them, so they are ready to send to my agent potentially. We're just seeing how this one goes first. There's things like the London Book Fair coming up and so on. I really would love to keep doing fiction, but I also have a couple of non -fiction ideas too, so I will keep writing.

Laura (41:09.614)
Amazing. And if you were saying to, giving anybody who is thinking about or who is an author, they are a writer and they want to get published, have you got any sort of nuggets of kind of information that might be helpful for them? What would you say is that they need to do?

Sara Barnes (41:29.907)
Oh, well, one thing is that my publishers currently have an open window for submissions. One more chapter. So that is worth considering. They deal in thrillers, romance, not children's, not nonfiction. So look at one more chapter. They've got an open window for submissions at the moment. I'm not sure how long it's open for. So always keep an eye out for these.

Laura (41:38.252)
Woo.

Sara Barnes (41:59.923)
open submissions from publishers because they do do them now and again. You'd think they'd have more than enough submissions but you know now and again they just want to invite it from everybody which I think is a really good way forward because it feels like a closed industry and you just don't know how to get your foot in the door. Getting an agent is a good way and you just have to keep trying just never ever give up and believe in yourself.

attend a local writing group or form a writing group if you haven't already got one so you can do peer reviews. I should read more but I find that if I read too much then I'm not writing and I want to have my own voice when I'm writing. So I just write every day that would be another tip whatever you're doing. I mean I started by writing more longer posts on Instagram as little as

Laura (42:48.046)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Sara Barnes (42:57.875)
stories of things I've observed or things I wanted to talk about, things I was feeling. So just keep writing, keep, put a Rogers thesaurus on your head at night and it will, you'll absorb it.

Laura (43:12.238)
Yeah, so it's about keeping going, isn't it, which seems to be something that is important in whatever you're passionate about, is that you've just got to keep at it, even when sometimes the going gets tough and you think, you know, this is never gonna happen for me. Sometimes it's just getting past that hump and then things start to happen for you. But it takes a lot of grit and determination, it sounds like, to become a published author or to become...

successful in many things, you know. I've got a friend of mine who's a coach, Robbie Swale, he's got a really good podcast, and he has written a few books. And he started by, one of them's called The 12 Minute Method, and he started by writing for 12 minutes every day on the tube, and he could manage to do like a blog post in 12 minutes a day. And from that, he's now written three books.

And actually, so it's just about being consistent, which is the same with any healthy habit or any habit that we are trying to make a sort of non -negotiable is to just keep going with it. And I always say to people, you know, it's okay to maybe miss one day, but don't miss two days. Because life can get in the way and just, but just keep going.

So yes, it's just amazing. It's been so lovely to hear about your story. It's very inspirational. And I am looking forward to keep seeing you in freezing cold water in beautiful locations because it makes me go brrrr every time I look at them and then I want to go and do it as well. So if you would like to support this podcast, it would be amazing if you would give it a review if you've enjoyed this episode because that's what helps us to get up the rankings and because it's a small podcast.

It would be amazing if you could do that and share it with anybody who you think might like this and might be inspired by Sara's story. And Sara, where can people find you?

Sara Barnes (45:05.811)
If you do Instagram, then I'm on there as BumbleBarnes. I have a Facebook page, Sara Barnes author or Sara Barnes. I'm trying to combine the two. I'm on threads, which is Instagram's version of Twitter, BumbleBarnes. And just look out for.

Laura (45:28.302)
It's...

Sara Barnes (45:30.885)
I'm trying to go around the country doing author talks. So if anybody feels that they would like me to come to their local bookshop to do an author talk, then be in contact through one of those channels or through yourself perhaps, because I've got a camper van, have van, will travel, trying to train the cat to be a camper van cat, but he's refusing.

Laura (45:54.19)
Or you see so many, I've seen so many on my travels actually, on Leeds and everything, and some that just are just there in the van and they come out, they have a little look around, and then they just go back in, it's amazing. So yeah, good luck with that. But cats are very independent compared to dogs. I'm always more surprised when I see a cat than a dog in a van, so good luck with that. So just tell me quickly about threads. I know what threads is, but do you find it, is it just something else to take up time, or what's the benefit of threads?

Sara Barnes (46:11.059)
Mm -hmm.

Sara Barnes (46:24.435)
I'm really not sure. I think when Twitter turned into X or whatever it did, a lot of people were looking for some other form. Threads is supposedly more about words than pictures. Instagram's about pictures, but it's all really confusing. Yes, it is designed to take up your time. You're better off buying a sauna and a cold tub and doing some contrast therapy. Or getting my book and reading it.

Laura (46:49.614)
and getting your book, getting your book and just sitting and giving yourself some self care. Forget threads and Instagram. Thank you, Sara. It's been a pleasure and I really appreciate you coming on again. Thank you. Bye bye, everybody and hope to see you in the next episode.

Sara Barnes (46:57.919)
Thank you.