E7 "Menopause and Minimalism: Anna Kilpatrick's Journey to Living Well with Less and Finding Balance in Midlife"

"In this insightful episode, Laura Shuckburgh from @marvellous_midlife,  interviews Anna Kilpatrick, @not.needing.new  a passionate advocate for minimalist living and sustainability. Anna shares her inspiring journey of abstaining from buying new clothes for over a decade, highlighting the economic and environmental impacts of the fashion industry. The conversation dives deep into the effects of consumerism, capitalism, and societal conditioning on our consumption habits. Anna also opens up about her decision to quit alcohol, discussing the challenges, benefits, and alternatives to drinking. As they explore the complexities of blended families and step-parenting, Laura and Anna confront the fears and concerns associated with entering midlife and facing menopause. Tune in for valuable tips on minimalist living, quitting alcohol, and navigating the challenges of aging gracefully."

You can find Anna @not_needing_new 

www.notneedingnew.com

Laura is a life and menopause Coach and a wedding Celebrant. Find out more below.

Free Menopause Symptoms Tracker https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e61009edab1950197f83896/t/62a0798f79934a0dfbdca666/1654684094105/Free+menopause+symptoms+tracker+

Email: laura@marvellousmidlife.co.uk

Website: www.marvellousmidlife.co.uk

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurashuckburgh/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marvellous_midlife/

Website : https:www.thechateaucelebrant.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marvellousmidlife/

Transcript

Laura Shuckburgh (00:02.094)
So, hello everybody. Welcome to the Marvellous Midlife podcast. And actually, we're now recording on a different platform. So I'm really hoping this goes well because we had a few tech problems this morning with my lovely guest, Anna Kilpatrick. So I'm Laura. I'm a menopause and midlife coach, as you know, and I show women that menopause is a positive transition and that the next chapter of our lives can be wonderful and something to look forward to.

forward to and something not to dread. And today I have the wonderful Anna Kilpatrick. Now, Anna is an advocate for living well with less, which is something very close to my heart. And she is brilliant at sharing ways to have a happy and fulfilling life without the need to constantly buy new stuff. Anna is a single parent of teenagers and has not bought any brand new clothes for over a decade, which is...

pretty amazing and who lives without her own bedroom in a tiny flat that she's filled with furniture from charity shops and skips. Welcome, Anna. Hello, Laura. We got there in the end, didn't we, with our technical problems? We did get there in the end, yes. And often it's just like that, but I'm just so glad that we persevered and we are recording now because I think this is going to be a really valuable conversation and one that...

Like I said before, it is quite close to my heart because I said earlier when I was just having a quick chat with you, I started to follow you maybe about four years ago when I first started on Instagram. And I don't know whether it was you who did sort of inspire me, but I did one year without buying new clothes. And that really changed the way that I now shop and that I have carried on sort of my sort of fashion or clothing journey. And it was a really interesting thing and it was...

What was very interesting about it was other people's thoughts on it saying to me, oh my God, I can't believe that you could do that, you know, and how could you not buy anything new and how, you know, I could never do that. So tell me, how did you start on that journey of just not buying new clothes and it's gone on for now 10 years? Yeah, well, it was just economically really, it was a situation that I was in. I won't go into...

Laura Shuckburgh (02:20.75)
all the detail because it is a bit of a gloomy old tale and it involves my now ex -husband who's a great guy, a really great guy, but in a very brief way to explain it is we had little kids, we had quite a big house, we had all the things that people look to try and get in their lives, like a spare room and two cars and even a separate dining room and a woodland garden and a...

log burning stove and all these lovely things and life was just ticking along. But we wear given a dealt a bit of a cruel twist of fate and he had a massive stroke. It was only 38 when it happened and life just fell to pieces from that point. Anyway, lots happened but I ended up living by myself in a really small flat with my two kids.

And because that was the only thing that I could afford, we didn't have like a critical illness insurance cover or anything. He couldn't work after that. And so it was all down to me. Anyway, so it was for economic reasons really that I started to buy everything in charity shops and people would just say, that looks nice. Or, you know, that's what a lovely outfit. Where did you get that? Or what a fabulous...

sofa or whatever it was that I'd managed to get for the flat. And people suggested that I show these things. And I didn't really know that much about Instagram, but I opened an Instagram account to try to show the lovely things that you could get secondhand. That's why I called it Not Needing New, because I was finding that I didn't actually need new stuff, that the things that wear out there that wear secondhand.

or that I found, like even things from skips or from the tip, the local amenity tip was just amazing for getting stuff for my flat. Yeah, I found that the stuff was really great. Other people are passing on things well before those things are broken or ruined. And I was quite happy to pick them up. So it all started from that really. I must say, I do buy underwear when required.

Laura Shuckburgh (04:36.238)
Well, yes, because it is a bit difficult, isn't it, to not buy it. I don't get that second thought. Even though my mum runs a charity shop here in Majorca, and she's a manager of a charity shop. She's been doing it for 20 odd years. She doesn't get paid for it. She goes in every day from rain or shine. She works from 9am till 2 .30pm. She manages this shop, but she does actually get quite a few things in there. She gets quite a few pairs of new pants, which she often does. Yeah, you do sometimes. You do see them, like if they're still in original wrappers and stuff, people put...

give them to charity shops. So yeah, that way, great. I've bought tights like that for sure. And have you now found that it's because you've been doing it for so long, has it become sort of part of your life and is it still now as much of a challenge? Because if you've not bought anything new apart from underwear, you know, for that long, do you just, is it completely, would you never buy anything new now in terms of just what you've spoken about? So, you know, what keeps you going with it?

Yeah, I think that I'm just in the habit now of not looking in new places. So they're not even on my radar anymore. I go into towns and cities. I don't look in clothes shops. I find them quite weird now. I find it really quite weird to go into a retail space and see lots of the same item all on one rail. It's almost laughable. I don't mean that in a nasty way. I'm not laughing at other people for wearing the same thing as somebody else.

I just find it kind of looks funny visually because I'm so not used to it from going into charity shops so often. I actually enjoy the treasure hunt kind of aspect of shopping secondhand, of finding that one kind of gem that's out there that you might be looking for. But also I would say that my entire habits have changed even in the four years that I've been doing Instagram, because at first it started off with a sort of celebration of.

pre -loved stuff and look at these lovely things that you can get secondhand. And I feel like my mindset has really evolved in that time to realizing that I was simply consuming on a different level. There's the first sale people who've bought it directly from the brand.

Laura Shuckburgh (06:55.214)
And I was simply being another consumer on the level below when it gets passed down. And I was sucking up just as much stuff. I was taking all of this secondhand stuff and I've subsequently just come to be much more considered with what I'm doing and realizing that not only do I not need new as in I don't need brand new, I actually don't even need all this pre -loved stuff either.

And I think that that's the really important place that we need to get to. And then with that, that sort of starts to open up different questions of if it's actually much better for us environmentally to consume less and to need fewer objects coming into our lives constantly, whether that's fashion or houseware or whatever it might be, kitchen gadgets, whatever, a new car. Then...

I think that as well as celebrating pre -loved things, we ought to also start to celebrate those things that might be actually new, but which are made with really good ethics behind them, that are made in a considerate way, that are made with a robust chain behind them, where everyone's paid a decent living wage within that chain and it's not open to abuse.

perhaps something that's been handmade or something that has been made so solidly that you know that this one thing, whether it's a chopping board or whether it's a garden tool, that you know that this is going to last for a very long time and you'll have that one thing and you'll look after it. So in some ways, my focus has shifted a little bit from buying loads of secondhand stuff and talking about that.

to actually slowing everything right down and allowing myself also to perhaps consider the options of investing in one really decent thing that I feel has had good provenance and has been made without abuse of resources or human beings or animals, blah, blah, blah. Oh my God, yeah. So when you wear talking about that, I'm just like going, oh, yes, okay. There's so much in there. There's...

Laura Shuckburgh (09:20.814)
There's the whole sustainability issue, which I was doing a bit of research before, because that was one of the reasons when I did mine, I knew for a year. It was because I read about, Stacey Dooley did a programme and it was talking about the impact of the fashion industry on our planet. And this, something that I read today was that fashion production makes up to 10 % of...

human carbon emission. It drives the resources and pollutes rivers and 85 % of all textiles ends up in the dump each year. Yeah, in fact, you know that 37 % of textiles never even makes it to the first consumer. 37 % is rejected at the manufacturing process or it gets sold and it's a return and it goes back to the shop and they can't process it so it gets binned.

37 % of textiles that are created don't even get a first wearer. Imagine that and all the people that have made every single garment, I just find it just absolutely brilliant. is this stuff all going? I don't know. It's a well -known and well -talked about statistic now that apparently around, we have enough clothing on the planet now for around five or six generations to come. Even if we stopped making everything today,

everyone could still be clothed for the next five or six generations of people. But it's just astonishing. It is astonishing. You know, like the whole thing about fashion as well. So when we're talking now, it makes me think, and I've thought this before about, you know, I like wearing, I like feeling nice in clothes and I do like fashion to a degree. I think it's, you know, I do like it, but then I think about, you know, all of the designers that are creating things that are fashionable and then,

For instance, people go, well, that's not in fashion this year. So you need to buy something else which is in fashion. It's, I don't, you know, what is that all about? That seems to me that it's all about money and it's not really about fashion. And where do we draw the line at creating all this stuff that you're meant to look a certain way, which is making people think I've got to buy new things every single year. All it is about, of course, Laura, exactly. That's exactly what it is about. And that even these big fashion houses, they used to be.

Laura Shuckburgh (11:40.782)
four releases a year, like four drops, four season collections a year to coincide with the seasons. And now there are about 52, it's like a weekly drop of new things that happen. And of course, how can it be that skinny jeans one year are in, wide leg jeans a few years later are in? At one point we're told that UGG boots are...

absolutely the pinnacle. Next time we're told that they're disgusting and ridiculous, nothing has changed. We're all still the same humans on the same planet. Nothing has changed. It is just the spin that we're told is entirely driven by capitalism, entirely driven by growth mindset, the market. You must sell more than, you know, if you've achieved 85 % sell through of these, this, this garment this year for this brand, it must be 87 % next year. Go, go, go.

that's just what it is. It drives all of this. And it makes no sense that something, you could now get something that's considered deeply unfashionable. Let's have a think. What would be really unfashionable now? Well, I don't know, because I don't know follow fashion, but you probably know more than I do. What would be deeply unfashionable? Well, maybe Ugg boots, because Ugg boots are not really in anymore, are they? And actually Australians only used to wear Ugg boots slippers. Isn't it only people in this sort of...

I remember when I first saw Ugg boots in a magazine maybe like 25 years ago or 20 years ago, whenever, when they first like hit mainstream and I think it might have been Jade Goody who was wearing them. Do you remember Jade Goody? Yes. Yeah. I think I might have seen a picture of her and I sort of put my hand over my mouth like, oh my God, she got on her feet. Oh my God, that's horrendous. No wonder they're called Ugg. They are awful. And then three years later, I've got a pair.

So I fell for it as well. We all do it. It's just nobody wants to be the different person. And this is the thing with human nature, particularly when you're young. I think we do change a bit as we get older and we give less of a crap about it. But when you are younger, when you're in school, when you're in your 20s, even when you're in your 30s with your small kids, you don't want to be the person that's different because all...

Laura Shuckburgh (14:04.03)
meanness and nastiness in the world created by humans is based on difference. Everything, whether it's racism, ableism, whether it's ageism, whatever it is, xenophobia, it's all based on difference. Finding the person who's different and attacking them for being different. So if everybody in the magazines is wearing this, oh, and they start coming in shops, then I better get, you know, I don't want to be the one that's different, the one that's wearing the...

not of being. Yes, it's about towing the line then, isn't it? It's about sort of not standing out. Yeah, it's exactly about that. It's about not standing out and being different. So therefore no one can turn and mock you because you're doing what you're being told to do. Oh my God, it's just so much deeper actually, isn't it, than just what we wear when we start talking about it like this. There's so much more to it and how we're being conditioned to, you know,

helping by buying more and more and more and more and more and more all the time needing to be better, needing to have more success. I've been doing quite a lot of work myself around that just lately that, you know, that always feeling that I want more and it's not more stuff necessarily for me. It's always that kind of striving to become better at what I'm doing or whatever it is. And we're always that's what we're taught at school. It's so interesting Laura I had

Just exactly this conversation last night with Gus, who's my boyfriend. I don't live with him, but we've been together for a decade. He's one of the most intelligent humans I have ever met. And he's not a surgeon or a barrister, he's a builder. But his emotional intelligence is off the scale. And we wear driving to Aldi last night in his builder's van. And I said to him, how was today? What did you do today? And he said, oh, you know.

I spent the day digging with Jerry. Jerry's the guy who's got the JCB digger and Gus was on the shovel digging. And I said, I found that a bit triggering. And I said to him, oh, why are you digging? Why don't you get the new guy to dig, like the younger guy? And he said, oh no, he was doing woodwork around the door frames. I was like, oh Gus, why aren't you doing the woodwork? And he said, well, I quite like digging.

Laura Shuckburgh (16:21.87)
I said, no, but you should be, you should be doing the woodwork, you should be doing the more creative thing. And he challenged me on that. And he said, what is it that makes you say I shouldn't be digging? And what I think, if I'm really honest about it, I think it's because I feel like you're better than that. You shouldn't be digging. And he is saying to me, why? I'm going to be paid the same. So why do you need me to not be digging? And I think if I'm really honest and it's a bit embarrassing to say it's because

I feel there's low status in digging and I would like my partner to have higher status. Why would I like him to have higher status? Oh, because that's better, isn't it? Why is that better? Well, because we're told that if you're digging, if you're a builder and you're digging, that's just like not really a very noble profession. Why do I need him to be anything different than he is? He's a bloody lovely guy. If he likes digging and he's good at digging and that's part of building a house, why did I not?

hear him say, I spent the day digging and say, oh God, well done, are you tired? I know, God, that's actually really resonates with me there because my partner is also a builder and he absolutely, and he's also, he absolutely loves his job before I go on and he is also extremely emotionally intelligent and is also one of those people who's very happy every day in what he's doing. He's always cheerful.

He's always making the most, you know, it's always like positive, oh, I've had a great day, you know, I've been building, I've been outside, it's been freezing, I've been on a roof. Do you know what I mean? He's fabulous like that. And actually you saying that made the hairs on my arms go up because there's something amazing with just being happy and in the flow of what we're doing without thinking what I could be doing or I need to be better or I need to get him.

Yeah, I need to have more societal feedback telling me I'm good, I need to progress, I need to get a business plan, I need to make more money, I need to employ six people. And he's just totally happy. Doing and getting paid doesn't always dig. But, you know, just, yeah, he's just totally happy doing what he does. And he's really content with that. And why am I poking him? I know. And there's something really special about that, because there's not many people around.

Laura Shuckburgh (18:37.998)
in our world like that. And often mainly not because of their own fault, but because of we are so societally conditioned. And at the moment, you say, I've got this thing in my soul that I keep thinking, right, I need to change and do something different because I really want to get back to doing something that's a bit more hands -on, away from screens, away from laptops.

where I am getting into flow and I'm doing something that feels to me more real, you know, like I'm either like growing vegetables or looking after animals, that kind of, you know, that kind of, but I need to make money from it as well because I can't survive otherwise. So it's how do I do that? Because I want to feel more real and get away from all these. Yeah, I totally get you. My future plan involves much realness and what I dream of.

is getting a little space where I can run an off -grid campsite in Portugal and Gus can do all the kind of mowing the lawns and putting up outdoor kitchen facilities and digging a compost toilet and I can bake scones and wander around taking phone calls from people and booking them in. So that's what I want to do.

Imagine waking up in the sunshine, stretching, walking out onto your land, saying hi to your campers. Oh, that's what I want to do. I know I could imagine doing that as well. But Portugal, you could do that because, well, hopefully one day, because Portugal isn't as expensive to buy property, same as in France. So it makes it more possible, I think. So I hope that you get that, Anna, I really do. So anyway, let me talk to you now. So that is...

Laura Shuckburgh (20:24.846)
I'm kind of wondering, there's a bit of a pause there because I'm wondering where to go next. And I think one of the things that I would like to talk to you about is the fact that you stopped drinking alcohol as well. And the work that I do with menopause, I know that alcohol can exacerbate menopause symptoms and signs, especially with anxiety and things like that. So what drove you to stop or to make that choice of not drinking and why, you know, how's that going for you? Yeah, oh, well, I definitely used to,

absolutely love wine. I was really part of that kind of mummy drinks wine to keep herself happy culture, you know, all those shitty bloody postcards and tea towels and badges and things that like tick tock Prosecco o 'clock and all that stuff. The whole landscape that tells us that it's absolutely fine to be doing this all the time. I was in that crowd loved it loved it.

red wine, but I would say I loved it so much that I began to see the red flags in my own behavior. And they wear things like, I would consistently say to the children that I didn't have enough money for things like, you know, a school holiday that was coming up or new trainers or whatever, but I was budgeting for,

about 30 quid a week on wine at Aldi, like five bottles maybe or six bottles. I would drink a bottle of red wine by myself easily in a night because you pour one big glass, it's only three big glasses and it's gone. And I would, but I would leave a tiny bit like two centimeters in the bottom so that technically I hadn't drunk the whole bottle by myself, but actually I really wanted the whole of it. I really would have done.

And then I found myself like hiding empty bottles because there wear too many in the recycling and it was a bit embarrassing that there was no food jars. It was just mostly mum's wine bottles. I would also, I mean, one really bad moment was when I found myself filling a bottle of red wine that had two centimeters left at the bottom up with tap water to make it look like there was more left inside there than there was because I knew Gus comes around every morning.

Laura Shuckburgh (22:42.574)
Gus comes around first thing at like half six in the morning and we have coffee together. And I was just getting embarrassed that he would see how much I was drinking by myself. So I started refilling them back up with water and then realizing that evening when he went to pour a glass that, oh my God, it's diluted wine. He's going to know what I've done. And now it's obvious that I'm hiding what I'm drinking. And it just became such a thing. I realized also that I was the single parent.

in this house and with my kids every night drinking too much to drive. So if I was ever required to go to A &E or something like that, I wouldn't have been able to take them there because I would have been over the limit. So I couldn't drive them. I was filling up water bottles with wine to sit through school events, like to go and watch their school plays because...

like, sorry, but I'm not going to go to a school thing that starts at half six and goes on to half eight without having a glass of wine. So I'm going to put it in my water bottle and just sip and drink that. So I had just got to the point where I was limiting my life based around drinking. So if someone said, Oh, God, you've got to go to this really nice restaurant in Upfield. I'd be like, well, I can't because I can't afford a taxi back from that. And I'm not going to go to a restaurant if I'm not drinking. So that's out the question. You know, I just, I would definitely not do things because of.

the fact that I wouldn't be able to get alcohol there or I wouldn't be able to get back from there because I'd been drinking. And then we went into lockdown and I thought, oh my goodness, this could go really badly wrong now because I was quite a high functioning alcohol dependent person. I was teaching, I was teaching well and doing a good job and managing my marking and being a single parent. And I was, yeah, I was.

functioning well and thinking that I deserved it because I had a stressful job and when I got home and when I'd done the kids tea, I could give myself a glass of wine. What a nice reward that was. But when it was locked down, I just thought this, you know, free to just drink whenever I want. And this is awfully dangerous now. So I decided not to drink for a few days in the week. And I normally, I thought of, I remember,

Laura Shuckburgh (24:58.542)
The thought of only drinking at weekends was ridiculous. Like how on earth am I going to get through five days? I'm never going to be able to manage that. I can't just be a weekend drinker. It's too much. You know, that's too big a thing to ask. But on May the 1st, 2020, I just thought I'm not going to drink today. And I didn't drink on May the 1st, 2020. And then I didn't on the 2nd of May or the 3rd. And then I thought, done three days. Let's see if I can get through the weekend. And then I did.

and then I just haven't stopped stopping. So it's nearly been four years and I just haven't stopped. That's amazing, Anna. I haven't stopped the giving up and it's hard, sorry. No, go on. I'd like to just ask you though, what do you substitute it for? Because it sounds like you wear kind of, you know, I know that feeling myself, it resonates with me. You know, I get to the end of the day, I think, oh, I really fancy a gin and tonic as a treat.

So has that just gone? Is that like a habit that's just not there anymore? Or have you substituted it for something else? The habits are so hard to break. And I don't just mean the physical habit of actually having to have a glass in your hand. I mean the idea of reward is really hard. And the projection of everything that you're told about alcohol and what it will do for your life is really difficult to disentangle yourself from. So that's the main thing that I found hard. Things like...

how will I go to a wedding and not drink? For me, one of the really hard things is we get together and have family camping holidays every summer. I've got 14 brothers and sisters and we get together and we have these huge camps. And when you're camping, people tend to start drinking about 11 o 'clock in the morning. Just have a beer, it's just where you go. And I just thought, how will I do a camping holiday and not be drinking? Everybody, all the other adults will be,

drinking around the campfire, it will be rubbish not to do that. Or how can I go away to this like little Airbnb, me and Gus are going to crack out like we did a couple of years ago. And every picture that you see of an Airbnb flat is always styled with a bottle of wine and two glasses on a little breakfasty table out on the terrace. And you think, I can't go to that Airbnb now and have a good time because...

Laura Shuckburgh (27:19.886)
I can only go there and have a good time if I'm sat at that table with that bottle of wine, enjoying that moment with my partner and we're gonna be laughing and it's gonna be so fun. And if you take the wine away, it's gonna be shit. That's what I thought. And so it was really hard letting go of the hope and expectation of joy that you are sold when you look at alcohol imagery. And that has been a thing. It's been like a loss, a bit of grief.

You have to go through it. It's not easy, but you can do it. And it's not the only avenue of hope and joy and fun in your life, but it is one. And I think it's really worth acknowledging that it's a big part of our lives. We grew up being told it was sophisticated and cool and fun, and it would make your evening so amazing. And on some level it does work to do that, but it's not the only thing that can do that.

but I just felt like I have to let this go because the bad stuff it brings me is now so bad. It's so expensive for one thing. It is causing me physical damage. So I was two stone heavier when I was drinking and I'm not trying to be sizist. I'm just saying that was not healthy because there is such a lot of sugar in alcohol. You don't think there is. Red wine doesn't really taste sweet, but a big glass of red wine.

has about the same sugar in it as a jam doughnut. Yes. And I remember reading that as well. Yeah. And I would never have sat on my sofa and eaten three jam doughnuts a night, but that's what I was doing in terms of sugar intake. Um, are my liver ached? Genuinely, I sometimes felt like I had aching organs and I don't get that anymore. I don't get urinary tract infections anymore.

I don't spend my weekends sometimes being actually sick in the bathroom because of how much I've drunk the night before. My skin has got better. Everything is better. Stress is better. I don't feel palpitations and anxiety rising up like I used to that I felt like I needed to drink to get, because it's such a slippery slope. And I don't want to be an evangelical bore about not giving, about not drinking. But I will say for me,

Laura Shuckburgh (29:44.398)
I don't think I would have achieved half of the things in life I've done in the last few years if I was still sat on that sofa over there with my big bottle of red wine, guzzling it away, watching Dragon's Den at night. Amazing. Well, yeah, I mean, so tell us what you've achieved in the last few years then. Can you share any of that with us? Because it is really inspirational, you know, but if you wear somebody who drank like that, because there will be people listening to this who do drink like that.

And it's quite common, especially it's just not uncommon to drink like that. We wear brought up as binge drinkers in our generation. And I just think that if we know that it is possible, have you got any tips on how to do it? Maybe. So this is how I did it. And it might help a few people. So the number one thing I think that that helped me at the beginning was I read this book that was called This Naked Mind by Annie Grace. And it is about.

dealing with your alcohol addiction. It was really good. It was very American. I found it a bit jarring at the beginning because it's quite Americany in that kind of, hey, Brad, I'm so glad I'm your dad, you know, that kind of vibe. And I found being very English, I found that kind of a bit like, oh, I'm not sure I can get through this book. But actually, she makes this claim at the beginning of the book and says, by the end of...

reading this book, you will no more want to drink a glass of wine than you would want to drink a glass of car engine oil because they're both a poison. And I thought, how ridiculous? By the end of the book, I really didn't want a glass of wine. I started to see what it was. Yeah. So that was absolutely key. And she said, there was one line in that book that made me stop reading, put the book down, jaw drop moment and think,

Oh my God, that's me. And the one line was, you will never satisfy your desire for alcohol with another glass of alcohol. And I was like, that's so true because I've had one and now I want another one and tomorrow I'm gonna want another one and then I'll want more and my resistance builds and I want more and more. And it was - terribly addictive. Yeah, it Terribly addictive.

Laura Shuckburgh (32:05.774)
So that was key. So Annie Grace's book, This Naked Mind was absolutely brilliant. And then what I did was I bought substitute stuff. So I did at the very beginning by 0 % bottles of beer or 0 % wine is really not very nice. It's not very similar, but 0 % beer is actually quite good.

And so I bought some of that. So at least I kind of felt like I'm still pouring out this drink. And then I realized I didn't really need that anymore. And I was fine drinking Diet Coke, which actually isn't another addiction. I can't deal with my caffeine addiction yet. I'm just one addiction at a time. So yeah, so then I just stopped buying the substitutes, but there was a massive sugar craving at the beginning because you're leaving behind all this sugar that you get through alcohol.

and I did want to eat loads of sweets and chocolate. And I did allow myself to do that because it's just a kind of crutch that you're putting in place to get across to the next side. So I dealt with sugar after alcohol, really. That's interesting. That's very interesting. I did four months alcohol free once, which was the most I'd ever done. And I was really pleased with myself and I definitely felt the benefits. And I read a book called Sober Curious and that really helped me as well. And...

I keep thinking all the time, I'm going to do it again. And I'm sure I will one day, but it's a funny thing, isn't it? Because I remember when I did it, I knew the time was right and it felt right. Time doesn't feel right again for me at the moment to do it. It's like that with everything. It has to come from you. You can't do it because someone else has suggested it. You have to just know. It almost felt not that difficult for me to do that on May the 1st, 2020, because I just woke up.

with no planning before. I just woke up and thought, I'm not going to drink today. And that was that. Does Gus drinks still. Yeah, he does. And he's a really sweet, he's quite sweet when he drinks. You know, he does, but he doesn't drink during the week. So he's much more able to put boundaries in for himself than I was. So he drinks, but come Friday night, he really looks forward to it. And he, you know, he drinks and he becomes quite sweet and he hugs everybody and he falls asleep at nine o 'clock. You know, he just...

Laura Shuckburgh (34:24.206)
But he can manage it, he can cope with it. I do believe that there will come a time in Gus's life when he stops drinking. His dad doesn't drink at all and Gus kind of admires that. I think just at the moment he chooses to, he might not forever. It doesn't matter to me. He's free to do whatever he wants to do and it doesn't upset me in any way. He's lovely when he's sober, he's quite cute when he's drunk. It's all right. He's got a handle on it.

And this whole thing that you don't live together, because I'm a big believer in, if ever I was to live with somebody again, I would want to have separate bedrooms because I like my own space and I'm very aware that living on my own or being in my own company suits me for a lot of the time. So would you like to live with Gus? Is that something that you would like to do in the future or how do you?

Do you find that whole sort of like living separately thing? Do you think it adds to the relationship? Yeah, I think it probably does. At the beginning, I found it really painful and it was a source of great unhappiness for me and I really wanted to be with him. But I think looking back, I wanted him to rescue me from everything in life. And he just wasn't able to be that person because not because he didn't love me or want to, it's because first and foremost, he is the single parent to his children and

That was his boundary. He needed to hold those kids in their environment for them. And I needed to do the same for my children in my environment. And we don't parent in exactly the same way. We did live together for 18 months during one point and it was really awful. And it actually broke us up for a while afterwards. We split up for a couple of months.

after that because it was just so intense and so difficult. When we got together, our kids wear still primary school age and younger teenagers. And over the last 10 years, so much has changed. But it's really, really hard because the time that I did live with him, I moved into his house, I was between houses, but I couldn't afford a place of my own. And in that time, what I noticed I did was,

Laura Shuckburgh (36:40.974)
I was in his house with my children and we had moved into his space. So it was totally his space and his way of doing things was the status quo. And so I would go in the kitchen and his kids would be in there doing something and I would retreat and not want to step on their toes in any way. And that, and I wouldn't want to tell his kids off for something that I found difficult, like not putting something away or.

you know, whatever it was. And so I ended up admonishing my children loudly in order to hope that the message got across, but not being gutsy enough to just say to his kids, no, don't do that. And I wouldn't do that because I had step parents myself who did do that. And I found it so upsetting and so difficult, but I wanted to be the really nice stepmother. But what ended up happening was I gave away all of my power.

of adulthood and I became another child in the situation. I gave myself less status than his children in the house. And so I was useless to my children because I wasn't holding a space for them in any way. I had retreated and I sort of became this shell of my former self operating in somebody else's space under their rules and making them higher in this hierarchy than, you know,

and kind of accepting this weird dynamic and it was awful. It was really awful and it nearly ruined me. And then I managed to get myself, I got a promotion at work to get enough money to get my own mortgage and I bought this flat by myself and we moved out. And my relationship with Gus has been so much better since I did that. And he comes around to -

morning, he comes on every morning and we have coffee and I adore him. He's absolutely great, but it's not been plain sailing the whole time. We really had to work at it and it's made us look at ourselves and he's thought really hard about does he need to be controlling in that way or you know, is he being overly controlling? He's not really sure. He just had to be the daddy had to be for his kids and you know, and we've we've really, really looked at things, but I would say it's been for us definitely healthier to have our own spaces.

Laura Shuckburgh (39:05.006)
I would like us to come together at some point. I'm really looking forward to that. But I think that's going to be when all our children don't need us anymore. You know? Yeah. And then you'll be, yeah. And then it's different, isn't it? Because having stepchildren is not easy. I've been married twice and I had stepchildren in each marriage. And even though I really did my best to be a good stepmother, it's never an easy role, I find. Well, it wasn't for me. It's not talked about much. You know, even this,

Even this Mother's Day, I was looking for a card for my mum and then I was looking for a card for my step -mom. Why are there no step -mom cards out there? There's hundreds of thousands of step -mothers and you can find one card in one shop. It's weird. So for me, it feels weird to set a card.

to send a Mother's Day card to this woman who's been in my life for many years, but isn't actually my, you know, I can't say happy mother's, she's not my mom, but you kind of what, anyway, someone's missing there. Make more stepmother. But it is really difficult and you can actually completely love these kids and you've seen them grow up and you really love them. And yet it is a different relationship. They are not your own children.

There is a different relationship. You have to stand back a bit. And that, it just causes, it's dynamically difficult in one household. People who blend families must work so hard at it. I've got a lot of respect for people who've managed to do it in a healthy way. I grew up with a really, with really weird and a situation that's still, I found so much heartache and trauma in what I went through, which I'm not going to go into because all my parents are alive.

But, you know, I just, there was so many difficult times. I absolutely did not want to bring that on my kids, particularly. And one thing I can talk about easily is feeling lesser than, feeling like the second rate citizens. So if I had lived in Gus's house and stayed there, his children know that we came in to their space. It is their space primarily.

Laura Shuckburgh (41:26.062)
and we came in and that gives the new people, the income is you're on the back foot. And I never want my children to be on the back foot because it still feels painful now, aged 50, to think about being the second lot, the back footers. Oh yeah, and I'm in that position as well. I still have that position with my step -family. My dad and my step -mum live together. They have done...

since I was 15. And it's got to a stage in the last 10 years where I actually won't go to the house anymore because my stepmother has just been so, has made so much trouble for our family that we are, we are the ones that are behind, that have been left behind. We are the, what did you call them? The second footers. On the back. On the back, you know, and that's, that's a nice thing to deal with actually, because, you know, he's still my dad. My dad lives there and he's got his own family there, but we are, I am still his family yet.

I don't have those privileges of going to the house or being involved in things like that. And it's sad. It's really sad. And then, yeah, and it's how you, you know, how you deal with that. And I was always very aware of that when I was doing it with my ex -husband and the children. So it's not easy shoes to fill being a stepmother, but I also think that it is possible and you can do it. Yeah, you know, they're...

there are some blended families and step families and adopted families and merged family, you know, who do it so well and work hard. I'm not saying it's easy for anybody, but people can work through all of these things and they can find their own way and they can do it with so much joy. And I just, for me and Garce, it was just too much. But one day, hopefully we will be together. I'd love to have a space that was neutral, you know, that we go.

and it's a neutral space. It's neither his kids growing up home or my kids growing up home that we come together and there's a new neutral space and everyone is equally welcome within the neutral space and it belongs to all of us. That's what I would really love. Yeah, that sounds like it's a wonderful thing to work towards. Maybe you'll have that when you go to Portugal. Yeah, I hope so and then everyone can live in the Netherlands. Right, Anna.

Laura Shuckburgh (43:48.206)
It's been so lovely to speak to you and I'm aware of time. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about today and sort of in the last bit of this conversation that seems important to you? I think maybe something about entering your 50s and midlife and because I know that's mostly your audience are thinking about that kind of thing. And I was just wondering this morning about how much we...

fear it because we, there is a new wave of discussion about midlife, which is blooming marvelous and people talking about menopause rather than it being like, oh, she's going through the change. Don't talk about that. And it's opened up and we're all thinking about it. But also what I've noticed a lot on social media is a lot of people talking about midlife and

menopause and stuff, who seem to me to be really, really young. And I just wonder whether there is a kind of, it's trickling down so much that people are sort of trying to deal with it now when perhaps if they hadn't been told very much, oh, this sounds awful of me. What I'm wondering is how much,

We go into it kind of fearing it and slightly nervous and trying to face it head on when actually it could just come quietly rolling into your life with less fear because. Absolutely. Because if I wasn't told that it was a thing, maybe I wouldn't have even noticed. Yeah, well that is really good point and something that I'm really aware of at the moment because I do loads of work within organizations. So menopause awareness sessions and manager training and things.

And one of the things that I now start off my sessions with is talking about that menopause can be a very positive thing. And I don't want you to feel scared because there is so much more talk about it within the press at the moment, which to me, there's a lot of scaremongering. People have jumped on the bandwagon. There's so much talk about, you know, you need this, you must have this, you must be doing this. And I do think there is something about that. And actually it is a beautiful transition.

Laura Shuckburgh (46:08.224)
some women can find it extremely challenging and some women, like you've just said, will just transition through it in a very natural way. So I think there's two sides to that, you know, there's a, there's kind of, yes, I think that it could be that it's scaring us, scaring some people, but I also think within that, that knowing you can be in a better position to acknowledge what's happening to you. So maybe notice perimenopause signs and be in a better position to deal with them.

So you can prepare or, you know, talking about sort of future proofing our bodies, you know, of having a lifestyle that is healthy, already starting that so that you are in a better position to transition through menopause. Because I know from the work that I do that it's really important that you tweak your lifestyle and look at, you know, your nutrition and your movement. So all that is to do with healthy living. So I think that's a good That's very important. That's really important. I am starting to... Do you know what I noticed today? What?

My fingers, I actually saw myself talking on a video and my fingers are doing that thing where you get those, I think they're called Heberdeen's nodes or something, where your joints at the very tip of your finger start to be quite big. They're like nodule. Yeah, oh, and now I feel like what am I gonna do? I can't stand it, I don't want like ancient knitting granny fingers, that's what I feel like I'm getting. So now I'm starting to...

like worry about that. And I'm looking into how can you stop your fingers from going bendy? You can't, it's actually osteoporosis sign. So now I'm thinking, oh, now do I need to sign an HRT from somewhere to stop my fingers going bendy? I mean, I've never heard of it being that it could be osteoarthritis as well. It's like kind of my, my mum's got it. Yeah. Have a look there. You could maybe look into getting a dex scan or a bone scan and start introducing some strength training into your.

fingers into your life. You're gonna do some for your fingers. Yeah. No. If it is osteopenia or osteoporosis, you know, you need to be looking at that soon. Yeah, I know. And this is, I know. So it can be scary. But also, if you you know, there's something you can do about it. So there's two sides to that really. Yeah, I've got in fact, I've got that I've got this thing like that on my the back of my door in the flat that's flat.

Laura Shuckburgh (48:32.216)
boarded and we're chalking stuff all over it. And I've got this lovely diagram that says, are you worried about something? Yes or no? You know, have you seen this flow chart? So it says, are you worried about something? Yes or no? If you go to yes, are you worried about something? Yes. It says, can you do something about it? Yes or no? So you go, are you worried about something? Yes. Can you do something about it? Yes. Don't worry. And do it. Yeah.

Are you worried about something? Yes. Can you do something about it? No. Don't worry. Are you worried about something? No. That's ended then. Brilliant. I love that. I love that. I've got one on my board at the moment for about offering advice because my son has been struggling a little bit lately. He's 23. And I tend to offer him advice sometimes.

So I've got this thing now that says, have you been asked to give advice? No, don't give advice. Have you been asked to give advice? Yes. When? Lately? Yes. Not lately, don't give advice. I've so relate to that and I've just learned that with my children, someone taught me that a good thing to do is to say to them when they start going, mum, I need a minute, you have to say.

would you like me to listen or would you like me to help you find a solution? I just need you to listen, right? Okay. And then you just listen and say, Oh gosh, I know that must feel really hard. You don't have to a solution. So, so yeah. It's not easy to do that because you want to fix and help your children. Well, I do, you know, especially if they're struggling, you kind of, you know, something in me as a mother wants to, you know, fix and help.

But it's often the worst thing, you know, because we have to go through hard things to learn. Yeah, we do. Yeah. I was in that bedroom in order to learn to clean it. Are they good then your kids? How old are they? 19 and 16. They're fine. They're actually really good animals. They're just, you know, they're just ordinary teenagers doing ordinary teenage things, which are far less irritating than what I was doing when I was their age.

Laura Shuckburgh (50:57.998)
Yeah. Do you think that's a boy thing or do you think that's just because they're boy, you've got two boys, haven't you? No, I've a boy and a girl. Oh, have you? I thought you had two boys. I know, I've got a boy and a girl. Isaac's 19, he's the older one. He basically just needs to be fed and given some space. It's like having a Labrador or something, you know, just in and out. He's just in and out, just very straightforward. I found it really easy parenting him. Just got to feed him.

Yeah, he's just quite straightforward. And then my teenager, my 16 year old, who's a girl is a little bit more kind of emotionally complex, but actually both of them just fabulous to live with, really fun, really, they crack me up. They're good humored, they're lovely human beings. Yeah, of course I have moments where I'm irritated by wet towels left on the floor and...

and stuff like this and feeling that nobody else takes the bloody recycling out. And they don't, they don't really, but as far as teenagers go, they are excellent and they don't moan about stuff. And I have loved being their mom so far. And actually the teenage years have been my best phase by far of all of it. The bit of parenting I've enjoyed the most absolutely hands down, better than tiny baby, better than toddlerhood, better than primary school, just...

Teenagers are amazing. I hate that they're me too. I was just about to say teenagers get a really bad press and I think they're really sort of forgotten, you know, a forgotten phase in many ways of transitioning through to adulthood. I think it can be really traumatic being a teenager, but actually I think if you just give teenagers space and let them, you know, be themselves.

then actually they can be a joy. My son was a joy to be a teenager. He still is, he's just struggling with adulthood. Yeah, yeah, it's tough. It's tough. It is. So, Anna, it's been amazing to speak to you and speaking for about an hour. I'm going to bring this conversation to a close. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe, please share it so that more people can listen and

Laura Shuckburgh (53:12.654)
You can find Anna at Not Needing New on Instagram, anything else that you want to say or where people can find you, Anna, any last words? Oh, yeah, I've got a little website, www .notneedingnew .com. Come and have a look. Cool. I will go and have a look at that. So thank you so much and enjoy your day. It's been a really lovely conversation and I'm really happy that you came on. We managed to get it done. Thanks, Laura. Thank you. Bye -bye. Bye.