People at the Core
People at the Core
The Life of an Artist: A.J. Springer on Creativity, Mental Health and What Makes a New Yorker
When you meet someone who embodies the spirit of New York, you can't help but be drawn into their world.* A.J. Springer isn't just an artist; she's a living, breathing part of the city that never sleeps. This vibrant conversation takes you on an explorations of what it truly means to be a New Yorker.
Venture into the art industry's labyrinth with A.J.'s guidance, discovering the intricate dance between creativity and commerce. We tackle the hurdles artists face with galleries, the influence of social media on their independence, and how art fairs are redefining success. From the chaotic life of touring musicians to the importance of relationships, A.J. opens up about the sacrifices and sheer determination needed to thrive in the world of art without losing one's soul.
A.J. shares how her experiences in Latin America have deeply colored her work, reflecting on themes of death and mourning through a fresh lens. We examine how personal mythology and grief find a voice in her creations, offering a cathartic space for all. This episode isn't just about art; it's also a conversation about destigmatizing mental illness and finding balance with proper diagnosis, as each of us openly discusses our experiences.
*Please be patient with us as we improve our recording and editing techniques and equipment. Every conversation we have had with our guests have been too rich and wonderful to not share. We appreciate you all hanging in there as we continue to learn and grow. Huge thanks to Tim Gideon for salvaging this episode!
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A.J. Springer Links:
Website
Instagram
Babes of the Abyss book
Mentions:
Urban Studio Unbound
The Other Art Fair
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Email us! peopleatthecorepodcast@gmail.com
From the Greenpoint Palace Bar in Brooklyn, new York, writers and bartenders Rita and Marissa have intimate conversations with an eclectic mix of people from all walks of life about their passions, paranoia and perspectives. Featured guests could be artists or authors, exterminators or private investigators, or the person sitting next to you at the bar. This is People at the Core.
Speaker 2:Hi Marissa, Hiissa Hi Rita, how are? You Jinx 1-834-567-8910, whatever that is, give me your numbers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just remember doing Jinx, but I thought you had to count and then you buy someone a Coca-Cola or something right?
Speaker 2:I thought you had to knock on wood. Maybe you have to knock on wood vw. Oh, that's the punch bug never mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I will punch bug.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same thing yeah, good, I had a good night's sleep. Uh, yeah, feeling feeling sparkly that's good.
Speaker 3:I'm not so sparkly today.
Speaker 2:I'm a little run down, that's alright. Got a lot going on.
Speaker 3:By our powers combined? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Two girls, one mic.
Speaker 4:Two girls two mics. Well, three girls Three girls.
Speaker 2:Three mics, three girls, with that being said, speaking of hey. So today our guest is AJ Springer.
Speaker 4:Hello.
Speaker 2:AJ is a multimedia artist. He uses a combination of printmaking, drawing, collage, painting, sculpture and woodworking to create immersive installations and 2D pieces. Her work has been exhibited nationally and internationally in shows such as the other Art Fair Brooklyn, taller Machina in oaxaca, mexico, urban studio unbound in new york, 21 gallery in cologne, germany, seoul museum of art in south korea, ipcna cultural museum in lima, peru. She is currently residing here in new york and continues her practice as an artist and fabricator hi agent AJ.
Speaker 4:Hi, thank you so much for having me. Very happy to have you love so AJ is our first native New Yorker.
Speaker 3:That is true on the podcast, so people at the core are people who are here in New York.
Speaker 2:You know, at the core of the apple, but you are, but you are the real deal. You grew up in Long Island right.
Speaker 4:Yes, I grew up in Patchogue, medford, long Island, and then I lived in the city for 13 years. I came here originally well, I wanted to get very far away from Long Island as I pretty much could and came to the city to go to FIT for fine arts and then just stayed, loved it so much I kind of always knew I came to the city to go to FIT for fine arts and then just stayed, loved it so much I kind of always knew I wanted to end up here. Yeah, and it's just been a love affair.
Speaker 2:Do you feel when people say oh, true New Yorkers. Do you feel that you were a true New Yorker before you moved here, or has that changed?
Speaker 4:I mean it's kind of funny, right, because like there's such this, like there's this weird discourse between like people telling me all the time, because I'm from long island, I'm not from new york, which is just like the dumbest thing I've ever heard yeah, I hear this all the time too where people are just like, oh no, that's long island it's still new york.
Speaker 4:It's still new york. I think that, but it it's. Interestingly enough, it's never people it's usually never people from New York that say it Right. It's always people not from New York that say it.
Speaker 4:And it's almost like they're trying to protect their New York city-ness. I don't know it's, it's like a thing, but I do feel like living in the city has given me a much more like well-rounded, what York actually is like to the core Right, and I also think it's actually kind of important to know what, like the other places in New York are like, because it's not like the bubble we think it is.
Speaker 3:Like Long.
Speaker 4:Island and upstate are like their own, super different places yeah.
Speaker 3:They're just like their own entities yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you think that maybe people hold on to the New York City proper and all the five boroughs as the true New York? Because of the diversity, because of the competition, because of all of that? That I don't think of. Well, I've visited Long Island multiple locations, but there tends to be more of a homogenous kind of culture, for sure.
Speaker 4:Absolutely no. There's definitely like I mean, new York City is like the center, right, Like it's like the center of New York, it's like where everything is happening, because you know places like Long Island and upstate, they're not quite as culturally relevant, but again they're still like in New York. And it's just such a weird thing when I've like had to navigate.
Speaker 3:But if you go anywhere outside of New York City, like New York is just like New York. Yeah, exactly, I mean you still. I mean you get. I get like my friends that live in Manhattan that are like oh, we're New Yorkers, like I'm not a New Yorker because I live in Brooklyn yeah, like you know what I mean it's also like the burrow against burrow.
Speaker 4:It's also kind of crazy for me, because my family has been in New York for 11 generations. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:Like what are you talking about?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and like they started in the city, because everything started in the city and then went upstate, went to Long Island, like they've like been all around, like they've kind of fucking made New York, so yeah, exactly. So you know.
Speaker 3:Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to curse.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah no, it's all. We kind of have sailor warnings, it's just yeah if you're sensitive, sorry.
Speaker 4:So I feel like after 11 generations in new york, no one's gonna tell me, I'm not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, you're a motherfucking. That's the goddamn truth. That's the. That's the goddamn truth. That's the GD truth, totally. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about this book quick. I'm just staring at it and it's so beautiful.
Speaker 4:Do you want to touch it?
Speaker 3:I already did and I love it. It's so gorgeous.
Speaker 4:So I just, yeah, me and Marissa made a book together. She wrote the introduction and she also helped me curate a lot of the pages, a lot of the images. It's a whole span of all of the work I've made up until 30. I just turned 30 last year, thank you, congratulations. And so there's work spanning from literally when I was 13 years old in there all the way to 30. That's awesome. It goes the full gambit and it's broken up chronologically into sections. And it's not everything I've ever done, because I've just made like an obnoxious, truly obnoxious amount of work in my life, which is not a bad thing. But going through everything was so hard. Marissa was like really helpful with like picking stuff out that like made sense made it cohesive.
Speaker 4:I've also written a couple sections in there, like I have an artist's statement written and kind of like a more contemporary idea that I'm working with, which is like with a lot more like religious Catholic iconography. So there's a written section in there about that. There's a section me talking about mental health because I have multiple mental health diagnoses, so it's mainly imagery and it's mainly my artwork. There's a couple little chunks of information about my work and myself as well I love that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean you've been a lifelong artist even though you're young. Yeah, it is. You know, I think, when people have questions about what is someone's destiny and I don't think that you had a choice, I did not have a choice I feel like watching you full disclosure everyone. I've known AJ for about 10 years now and have watched her grow in her art, but I've also been a witness to the necessity that art expression expulsion from like your inner self, like you have to do it. It's.
Speaker 4:It's not a thought process of a choice, it's you are compelled to and and it's this beautiful gift that is, I think, a blessing and a curse sometimes yeah, definitely, it's a lot, it's a lot to handle and it's like one of those things like any, I think, think mental health related If you don't deal with it and express it, it manifests and becomes much like uglier and dirtier and just like negative for not even just your mind but your body, like your total, like well-being. So for me, I mean mean I also go to therapy too because I have such severe mental conditions yeah, um, but it's probably my most therapeutic release and I think if I didn't do it I would just go absolutely insane.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean not to interrupt you, but I you know very similar issues and I feel the exact same way with my writing, right? Um, you know, my only I leading into a question. I didn't mean know, my only I leading into a question. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but leading into a question is do you ever I go through such bouts of of obsession with the writing and obsession with doing it, and then nothing at all?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know what?
Speaker 3:I mean, like I bring this up constantly, but the david foster wallace thing, right about how many times that he would write, write, write, write, you know Infinite Justice giant huge novel, and then just watch TV for like 15 hours a day. That is so me Right. Yeah, you know, and I just feel my body and my mind deteriorating. I think there are sorry.
Speaker 4:I think there are a lot of artists that do that, though, and I do think there's part of this like hustle culture.
Speaker 2:I just tried to combine the word hustle and culture. I love it. What?
Speaker 4:a great word. I think there's just like this emphasis of like us kind of like being working, working, working, working, working all the time, and that's not really conducive to being an artist. I think, and this and this has taken me very recently I've only really started to like kind of like process this and like really internalize it, like those moments of kind of like sitting and like looking at something for 15 hours, I think that's kind of just as important.
Speaker 4:Like I think those are like kind of like those empty spaces kind of like lead to in the same way, where it's like you know, like the words you write are just as important as the words you don't write like kind of cliche but, like that, time is a part of the process and I do still get like super imposter syndrome if I don't like draw something, like you know, if I haven't like worked on anything in over a month, sometimes I'll like get into my head.
Speaker 4:But I try to remind myself there's also a lot more to do being creative than just making the work yeah, you know, like a good point there is so much effort you have to put into like promoting it, getting getting it out there, getting feedback, just kind of like like letting it like exist in the world. That's kind of like its own job, and something I've been trying to like kind of navigate lately is like balancing those things and sometimes you know you just got to fight that imposter syndrome yeah, no, you're totally right.
Speaker 3:I've never looked at it that way. So now, do you? Are you solely doing art right now, or do you have? What do you do for your income?
Speaker 4:no, so I actually have a part-time job working in framing okay, so I work for this company called Griffin Editions and they actually started out as a photo, traditional photo company like back in the 80s like black and white film, and then in the past, maybe like six or seven years, they started a framing company and originally they hired me as kind of of like a consultant to help with the whole thing and then I've ended up in the finishing department doing all like the painting anything.
Speaker 4:Basically, an artist needs to be painted, but it's primarily frames and she has ruined frames for me I used to be the person I was like.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm adulting.
Speaker 2:I'm taking this poster, this thing, and I'm just gonna put it in a frame and once I saw what the possibilities were and what a really good frame is, and and museum quality, yeah, fuck oh it changes your life.
Speaker 2:this, this level of yeah, no, it's true, you can't go back, no, but it's made me a frame snob and I know nothing, but I know what this level of maintaining art, but it's made me a frame snob and I know nothing, but I know what isn't good and I appreciate all of the work and all of the detail and I think that everyone perceiving the art gets it. But until they know, then you're like, oh my God, there's a whole other art form in and of itself to making the frames Right.
Speaker 2:And it can really enhance the piece.
Speaker 4:It's like a platform for the work. It's a piece of the work you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4:It's. You know, I feel like I get some pushback sometimes about having like a day job, quote, unquote, even if it's part time, which I think is kind of silly, because I feel like that's a big part of the reason why I can like make the work that I want to make Exactly.
Speaker 4:Like it's not. I sell stuff, but you know there might be like a month where I don't like that happens. You know like, and I don't like the idea of forming my work around well, will this sell, right? I just hate that idea. So that's kind of what's kept my foot in the world of like having like a day job. It's like I just don't want to be bound to. You know the formula that galleries can make.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a segue. I have a question about the gallery world another thing that I've learned about through you of just how crazy of a gatekeeping and world that is and how, just because you're in a gallery like, they take so much money.
Speaker 4:They take usually more than half. Yeah, it's usually more than half.
Speaker 3:I mean, like I have a good friend and that's solely what he does is sell his art. I mean, like I have a good friend and that's solely what he does is sell his art. But I was going to bring up the fact that what people don't realize is just because you sold that piece, you may not see that money for six months to a year to two years.
Speaker 3:I mean right, yeah, absolutely. And we're dealing with people that have disposable incomes that aren't thinking about the struggling artists, they're just thinking about their piece right, the gallery itself is taking 40.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I kind of get that I mean publishing houses, recording companies.
Speaker 3:That's everywhere, that's across the board.
Speaker 2:However, learning about the gallery worlds, since we've we've been doing things together it there are some that do nothing other than hang it on their wall. They're not promoting it. They have a disinterested, well-dressed person walking around potentially answering questions, but with a lackluster response, not knowing information, and then they're still taking 50% off of that and I feel, unfortunately, that is more common than not, and that's where I like gets my goat, you know of knowing how hard she works and how much money and time. Just on the, on the economics, that's life man.
Speaker 3:I mean talk. Talk to musicians, talk to writers, talk to artists. That's that has been. Do I agree with it? No, but all I'm saying is that has it?
Speaker 2:it's been that way, since you know artists were invented.
Speaker 1:People started making art.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course, of course, but you know that's just.
Speaker 4:That is the way it is. I feel like what we're kind of trying to do is we're trying to, you know, occupy that space and also circumvent it by a little bit, by doing, like you know, a lot of the things. One of the things that me and Marissa do a lot is the other art fair and the other art fair. The whole kind of model is that the artist has to represent themselves, and I've always really liked that because it's just very genuine, it's very earnest. You know, when you go to the fair, you get to speak to the people who actually made the work. Like kind of I feel like the way that we've tried to navigate that is just by trying to like promote ourselves. But yeah, I mean, it would be great to be a gallery, but I don't want to like rush.
Speaker 4:I don't want to like rush into it you know, I feel like it's got to be like the right gallery. I've had a couple offers and like, but they haven't. And I think that's I was able to say no because I have my day job right you know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Like exactly I've been approached but I didn't really like the the deal. Um, a lot of the times I don't like the deal and so, because I have that day job, I've been able to be like no, and I've been working kind of with galleries, more one-on-one, like group shows or like like I don't have any exclusive things with galleries, because I also feel like I mean, I'm I'm not against it, it's just you've got to be careful, you've just got to be really careful, because then you get involved in their politics and there's all these other things that have nothing to do with you or your art.
Speaker 4:And then they start telling you how to make your work Right, right, yeah, I mean not all of them, obviously.
Speaker 2:No, exactly, we can't generalize. No, no, no, the worst case scenario. We're talking about the outliers.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're the outsider artists, I guess. Yeah exactly, so we kind of more exist in that realm. But, yeah, it's kind of like it's a necessary function. There's a lot of corruption and everything but kind of that's the idea. It's like supplement the income and not only rely on galleries, Because it's not even always the gallery's fault. There's economic times where nobody's buying art.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly.
Speaker 2:They can't really control that, and you've got $20,000 rent and a bunch of paintings. Yeah, it's hard to be a gallery too.
Speaker 4:It's just it's art. Making art is hard. Yeah, exactly, being a creator is hard, and be a gallery too it's just it's hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is well I know so many struggling gallery owners not necessarily here, but Minnesota a lot, you know she's really independent that are trying to do a really positive thing and bring out unknown artists. I think the good guys and you're struggling.
Speaker 4:I think the kind of galleries that numerous are talking about are more like blue chip. Yeah right you know, like galleries that don't need, like based on just their reputation, like they don't actually need to promote as much as like those like smaller independent galleries do and a lot of those times those smaller independent galleries don't like tie you down to them.
Speaker 4:They're like pretty open-minded about you like knowing, just like how it works and like you know, being not maybe not exclusive, like there's a lot of options out there. It's just like there's not a one-size-fit-all with being an artist. There's just so many avenues to go down. It's kind of a lot yeah oh, I, oh, I agree.
Speaker 3:I mean it's in any form, right, right, we're just trying to figure this shit out and do what's best for us, and because of social media, too, I mean that's changed everything. Oh, absolutely. I was a musician for many, many years and played in bands, and when I started, the real way to success was being on a label. Now, I mean mean it's almost obsolete. The labels need the artists more than the artists need the labels yes.
Speaker 3:YouTube, because of social media, because of TV shows, tip-top, I mean, all these things are. You know? There's just so many more options right streaming services and all that.
Speaker 2:I need to do live shows. You need to do all touring and yeah, no, it's a lot.
Speaker 4:My husband's a musician so I know all of that. Yeah, exactly, exactly. All about that fun life.
Speaker 3:So, speaking of, I also dated musicians for a long time and they were always touring musicians.
Speaker 1:Is your husband a touring musician now? Yes, he is a touring musician.
Speaker 3:So how often is he in town, out of town?
Speaker 4:He's out of town a lot. He's probably yikes. It's kind of hard to say because it's always on and off. He hasn't gone for one straight tour for over a month. He's been gone for a month. He'll come back for a week and then he'll go again. But yeah, he spends a lot of time touring. I've never thought about the breakdown. At least three months a year, probably more than that, but it's a lot. It's really. It's difficult, honestly, but like it's what he loves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, it's like his whole thing. And segue to your husband he is Venezuelan and lived in Mexico, correct has. So I have a question I guess how culturally and linguistically like has that influenced your work? Has that made you think differently about approaches, his methodology? I know that he is very organized and I know that he is really like he can push stuff out.
Speaker 4:Yeah, actually, I would say that. Say that in a work sense, yes, because I've seen how methodically it's about just either making the music, editing it, pushing it out. It's very much like how a day job is you have to stay on these schedules, have these meetings, x, y and z but then, from a cultural perspective, it's definitely had an influence on my work as well as being friends with you too, like going to Mexico. I've been to Venezuela, I've been to Mexico now a handful of times with you, specifically to Oaxaca, and that has been massive for my work. I mean. So Marissa and I went there. I went there for a residency in Oaxaca that Marissa introduced me to the studio and brought me there and basically forced me to go with my portfolio and like do you like my work? Can I come back? I love that.
Speaker 4:And we did, and then we did, and we did go back.
Speaker 2:See, I do that to both of you, forcing you out of your comfort zone.
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 4:I'm like I see you.
Speaker 2:You can do this.
Speaker 3:Come on, us need people like you. Yeah, agreed, I agree. I always say she's my motivation. I mean, when people ask like, how do you guys get along? What happened? And I'm like she makes me do things I would never do right, or or just pushes me to complete same, I just can't complete anything you know, I get right up to the line, and then I'm like oh, but murder is on TV, but true crime Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that is definitely a thing.
Speaker 4:And I feel like culturally, like what I've noticed about and I know this isn't too much of a generalization, but I feel like Latinos have this like connection to the darker self that I don't know. It's like it's not as people aren't as comfortable with it, like in America I've heard the same things about europeans like there's just a little bit more comfortability with like darker ideas, darker imagery, like in a way that I think is really positive, like sometimes when I show, I feel like when I show my work to a lot of american people, they're like oh, they're worried, yeah, they're worried exactly they're like are you okay?
Speaker 4:and then when I show it to other people, they they're like wow, this is so passionate, they just get it, they get the macabre.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:I feel that this is a good segue to another conversation I wanted to have with you that, yeah, latin American culture is accepting of death or has a different relationship with death and the concept of death. For example, something you know cliche like day of the dead, which is not cliche for for latin americans, but it's acknowledging death as a part of the process and taking time as friends and family to honor and to visit with and to love and respect and celebrate the lives of those lost, yeah, and or who exist, whatever your belief is in another dimension or heaven or whatnot, but that death is a part of a relationship with life, opposed to think kind of.
Speaker 2:a more classic quote, unquote American is death as an end Right.
Speaker 4:It's almost like a, it's something to be feared, it's like a celebratory energy there about. I mean not that we're like celebrating death, but it's inevitable, right.
Speaker 2:And so if we're afraid of something that is inevitable, then it's hard to have a positive relationship with life, exactly if You're constantly fearing death and you play with a lot with that in your work, and I know that you've had a couple deaths in your life that have been very influential on your work and your process. One was a mentor that you had when you were younger, yes, and you've talked about really influential in your process and I think maybe could have been a precursor to you understanding, pre-diagnosing some of your underlying mental health issues that were not necessarily acknowledged when you were younger, For sure, yeah.
Speaker 4:So I was also really lucky that I was kind of such a troubled kid that my parents were like well, what do you need?
Speaker 1:You're freaking us out, Like what do you want to do?
Speaker 4:And I was like, oh, I really like going to like art classes. So there was a guy, his name was Jeffrey Fisher and he came to my school and did like a figure drawing workshop at my school and I kind of just like was immediately enamored by him. He was like this really strong presence and, um, he was very. He was kind of a bully, but in the bully in the sense you don't want somebody bullies you with like a little bit of love you know, like that like loving yeah like a little kind of like negging, but in a way that's like yeah, make a better drawing, come on, just do it.
Speaker 4:Um, and very disciplined, like I. So I started going to his classes when I was like 14, okay, and I stayed with him. It was also pretty intense, like so it would be every Sunday six-hour drawing sessions with the model, and then like three-hour critiques after. Oh shit, and I started doing that at 14.
Speaker 2:Wow, every week, Nine hours a day. Yeah, every week which was great.
Speaker 4:I mean that also gave me, because it was also there was a big range in students Like some were young, like me. Oh, I was the youngest one. I was the youngest one. I was kind of an anomaly in that. But later on more younger people started coming in. When I was there it was like me and maybe like a couple of young people, but most of them were like in their 20s 30s, being allowed in that environment allowed me to see people who like oh people, this is like their job and even if they have like another job, like this is their thing, this is their passion.
Speaker 2:People do this like your family.
Speaker 4:Aren't artists, no, okay my mom went to art school but then dropped out. But she's I mean, she's artistic, but they were, they weren't not supportive.
Speaker 2:I mean they sent me this art class like that's a big in home where you didn't grow up with, that in home where like parents were creating.
Speaker 4:No, I was just like very tortured. I always like had been interested in art, but when I kind of came across this guy, jeffrey Fisher, like he was the one that was like well, you can do this, like this is like a life, I was like whoa, and then so started doing those classes all the way. I even kept doing them when I went to college. I would go back on the weekends.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I love that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he would call me. He'd be like you have to come back to class. We need you. At some point it was like he was like the class needs you too. It became this kind of it was like this Church yes, it was exactly like a church. Yeah, it was like this church yes, it was exactly like a church. Yeah. And then he passed away, really suddenly have a heart attack.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 4:It was really surprising because it was like I spoke to him like the day before I'd seen him, a week before I actually he did. It was so weirdly full circle because he I met him during like a high school figure drop, figure drawing workshop and then he asked me if I could model clothed model.
Speaker 1:If you don't do naked modeling in high school.
Speaker 4:It's just like you know, we're like leggings and like a shirt. He asked me to do that, uh, at a high school um, be the model. And so I did that. And it was kind of like this amazing day where it felt like everything, like the cycle, kind of like completed, where it it was like this is like how I met you and now it's like I'm doing it for you.
Speaker 4:And then so I saw him, like we hung out. He smoked a bunch of my cigarettes, even though he had quit smoking cigarettes. He was, he was really something. And then, you know, as he left, he said, like I'll be the same, which is like his favorite thing to say I'll see you later. And then he died a week later. Wow, kind of wild, yeah, but he was so important to me he was. He really like was the one that told me like you can do this, like you specifically can do this, like also, you have it like do it, just do it. Yeah, you were seen. Yes, I was seen, which is really important because I didn't really feel like anyone had like seen you. My parents, you know, they were trying. They were like what do you like? We don't know what's wrong with you?
Speaker 3:yeah, what do you need? Yeah? Just go do it. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. Same thing. You know, I've been diagnosed with so many things throughout my life, but yeah I remember my parents trying really hard yeah to put you, I dropped out as well this. This is not about me, so never mind, but um, I mean, it is your body but, but you know, I remember them trying I?
Speaker 3:I just bring this up in the sense of like people trying to deal with people that are bipolar, like what can I do for you? What like the they? They want to. It's just so hard when you're in this situation and you don't have an answer right, and we're just so fortunate they want to. Exactly, it's just so hard when you're in this situation and you don't have an answer Right, and we're just so fortunate. I just want to say we're so fortunate to have Elmer's. Oh my God, so fortunate Because there's so many people that don't.
Speaker 4:No, so I wouldn't. I don't know if I'd be an artist if they didn't send me that fucking class you know, yeah, he was kind of the first one that they were.
Speaker 4:Just I don't think they were expecting me to like. I think to them I was like, oh, like sending her to ballet, like you know it gives. Like Then, like at that point there was more classes, so there would be there be that Sunday class and then there'd be like classes during the week. Like I was like living at that studio, like I became super connected with all the people there. It was like my family was my family, but it was like I had a second art family.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker 4:They probably saved your life. They absolutely saved my life.
Speaker 1:I mean that should be dramatic, no it definitely saved my life.
Speaker 4:No, like he was so pivotal to like my whole progress. Like I've dedicated my thesis to him because of it. Like when I graduated college, because I just I wouldn't have done any of it like without him. Like I just didn't. I was just super lost and my parents had a big hand in, like you know, being like yeah go just do it Right, which is great.
Speaker 4:That's great that they're supportive. No, because not everybody has that. Yeah, like that's major. That made a huge difference. Also because I started getting like pretty serious training at 14.
Speaker 1:like yeah, when I went to college.
Speaker 4:It was noticeable like people were like oh damn, like you've been doing this, like yeah this ain't your first time drawing. Like I remember, when figured the first figure drawing class in college, there were people like, oh my god, I've never seen a naked model before. It was just so that even that was a huge event I started off with like a huge Advantage going to college too, and it made it made a really big difference there as well.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it was huge. Do you a question I've never asked do you think that you needed to go to college, or could you be where you are without it?
Speaker 4:I don't no, that's such a hard question to ask, because I actually had a really positive experience in college but I also think it's because I think that's because, like what I made it like. I think a lot of that is like with college, like it is what you make it like I a lot of people surrounding me were really unhappy and really miserable, um, but I feel like part of it is like they weren't really like utilizing the resources, like one of the biggest resources I had in college was I joined this club called Urban Studio and they their whole kind of like theory concept was that they actual like put actual artists that were still in college like into exhibitions.
Speaker 4:Like they did exhibitions, they did installations, they did events, they went to Miami for art battles.
Speaker 2:So it was like the equivalent of the internship into the firm or whatever.
Speaker 4:But it was like in, like I was still like. I was like in my sophomore year or something Like I already started doing exhibitions, which was huge.
Speaker 2:So it made it more real, less kind of like abstract. Yes, this is what it could be.
Speaker 4:Their whole thing was like connecting, yeah, like you can be in a show now, which was huge. So that was a really big part of my education. Despite that, it wasn't like a required part of my education. I worked with them and I still work with them. I just actually did a show with them last week. They have a gallery in Yonkers, so they started in the school and then they expanded out of the school and got a grant and opened a gallery in Yonkers.
Speaker 3:Oh cool, that's awesome. It's called.
Speaker 4:Urban Studio Unbound. It's a really cool organization Show notes.
Speaker 3:Check it out in the show notes. I think it's almost question time. The question roulette, did you have another one?
Speaker 2:I feel like I know you, but I have so many questions it's just carte blanche to keep digging in Current work. Yes, so you had mentioned knowing your family history of having generations in being 11th generation New York. I know that you do a lot of research in your work, which isn't necessarily noticeable if people don't know, but you bring a lot of geography, history as well as your new kind of focus on kind of mythology. I know that you started a theory, a thesis or some work focused on Orpheus Mm-hmm and you've been playing with these kind of like mythological stories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is really cool and visually I mean they're gorgeous things. But then you hear the stories and you get in deep and you're like, oh my gosh, For example, the series that you started in deep, and you're like, oh my gosh, for example, the series that you started last year in Oaxaca. You've done a couple pieces now for Orpheus. So can you tell us a little what that is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel like it kind of and I'm still doing it with my family kind of stuff too, but that's just been harder to. It's almost like your family history is almost like your personal mythology.
Speaker 2:That's kind of been my own sort of the writer in me wants to take that. Family history is your own personal mythology.
Speaker 4:It's kind of like breaking down all of those things that I was told about my family and then kind of discovering how some of them are fucked up, the way that mythology is you hear a myth and then you look into it and you're like oh, this is generations.
Speaker 4:In the US there's a lot of those generations that weren't acting so right, so that is kind of something I think I've subconsciously carried into my work, and then it's I'm still kind of something I think I've subconsciously carried into my work, and then it's I'm still kind of exploring that now and figuring out how to talk about it and like make work about it. But it just kind of immediately transferred into like the mythology, because, like any like kind of familial stuff, like family, and mythology is so like key. It's always like someone's dad, someone's wife someone's brother, someone's mother?
Speaker 4:Yeah right, dad.
Speaker 4:Someone's wife, someone's brother, someone's mother, like yeah right, so he's so family centric it kind of felt like a natural progression to like explore that kind of world because there's so many family dynamics in them.
Speaker 4:And orpheus was really cool because it also dealt with um, death, like. The whole idea of orpheus is that he is like a pseudo god, greek god um, and he falls in love after being like a player his whole life and his wife dies the day after they get married. So he goes on this great voyage to like the underworld to try to retrieve her, and you know it's a whole. Obviously it's very long and complicated, but eventually he gets there and Hades says, yes, you can take her back with you, but the thing is, while you're going back to above ground, you can't look at each other. You have to trust the other person's there, right, and the movie has. I mean, that story in itself is very I think it's very related to grief in a way, because, like you can't go back into the underworld and like take your wife back, like it's not possible.
Speaker 4:So like he gets to the entrance and then he has a moment of doubt, turns around a moment too soon and she vanishes. Of course, like, of course, it's gonna happen yeah like. To me it's this really big example of kind of like bargaining, like it's the ultimate bargaining process, like he went on like a bargaining voyage and then still came back the same way right and that sort of dynamic also related to me, because once I lost my I lost my dad in 2021 and dealing with the grief it, it just kind of that was like naturally aware of what.
Speaker 4:Like how do I change this, how do I fight this? Like how do I alter the course of history? But like you can't, but it's so easy to get stuck and that's kind of his whole story. He gets like stuck in that void of not. He never like ends, he never moves past like denial and bargaining.
Speaker 3:Right, he's just stuck in the stages of grief.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so like for you, then you're moving through the mirror by not bringing him back, but by making these art and having exactly conversation and bringing it to the here and present right, and also like opening up the conversation about grief, because I do think it's a bit of a taboo like subject. Yeah, and you know these artistic things, they exist, so we can like kind of like see these like parallels. You know, like once I read that story I was like, oh my god, fuck, like I'm doing.
Speaker 4:I'm doing this right now, like I'm bargaining like with death and like he's gone, like there's no going back to the mirror like, uh, so to see that kind of like beautiful visual representation of it, like it was really like moving for me and so I've just kind of been it's not all orpheus based now yeah, but a lot of it was a starter.
Speaker 1:Yeah it was like a really nice starter point.
Speaker 4:Now I'm working with like a lot of mirrors, like I just did a piece called the Veil, which I used imagery from the Orpheus movie but then kind of made it a little more. I just changed. I'm just making it a little more personalized.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, which is what we always do Right, right, right, you know, we just take it in and interpret it and make it our own. Yeah, exactly, make it our own.
Speaker 2:That's why writing poems, words, art, all of these things are sharing our perspective, our interpretation of things to be tools for others to do the same, and so it continually morphs and grows and flourishes, and comforts, Right, and it never ends.
Speaker 4:That's the coolest part about any of this stuff. Like there's no end point, right, Right, Like you can just keep expanding and expanding and expanding and like what's cooler than that?
Speaker 1:Yeah right, it's not like a math equation, like where there's an end yeah.
Speaker 4:Though I'm sure there's some math equations.
Speaker 3:I go on, for there's insanity. It makes people go insane actually.
Speaker 1:I'm sure it is a thing.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks, aj, of course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we loved having you. That was awesome. Thank you so much for having me. We could do this forever. Yeah, seriously.
Speaker 2:So we're going to pivot, yeah, and move into our question roulette. The random section of the conversation you down.
Speaker 3:Yes, sip, ooh, I love this.
Speaker 2:This is so exciting. It's exciting and it makes me nauseous. Usually, good things make you emotional and it's weird. I feel like they've been kind of tarot cards for some people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they do feel that way.
Speaker 4:I believe in the magic of any cards. Honestly Lovely. Okay, what's the? Best evening you've ever had, holy snideys this one Ever, ever, I'll say top ten, oh my gosh. That's like too much pressure mean. That is a lot. I thought I would say like, well, my wedding day is like really cliche.
Speaker 1:But it's definitely like really up there.
Speaker 4:Um, it was a really great day. It was really simple. I just got married on my roof with a bunch of my friends marissa was there. It was covid time. It was covid time there was like 15 people there, max it was. It was really fun, though, um, I feel like the best moments I've had have been traveling, honestly yeah, like I have really like deep like going to oaxaca for the first time.
Speaker 4:That's probably up there. Times in oaxaca is up there. When I went to peru I remember like when I had a museum show in peru. Those are probably what I put in my like top nights and moments is like nights in oaxaca, like being in the studio and then like going and having the skull after like kind of sounds odd. That like those mundane, not the mundane, like those more simple days like those really hit really hard with me like so yeah, kind of it's kind of a big answer, but nights traveling, I would say there's just like a couple that like stick in my mind.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna say, spawned off of that, we we went back to oaxaca in the fall last year for a second residency and uh, we're also there for a friend, a mutual friend's wedding, and it was day of the dead times and she had her second resident. Was like all of these amazing things at one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that trip is probably and we had one awesome night where you were at the studio. We went to an art opening like that's the thing you do in Oaxaca and they're so like communal. There's obviously freedom of skull. There's musicians playing it and they're so like communal. There's always like freedom of skull there's musicians playing. It's a social event, but not a pretentious New.
Speaker 1:York kind of thing.
Speaker 2:It's not like a New York gallery. No, it's very welcoming, and the thing that is really beautiful is that I'm sure you've noticed this too it's not ageist. No, so you're with 20-year 20 year olds and we're hanging out. I met raul, who's like 80. Yeah, like fell in love with this 80 year old painter man.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, he's great. We went out to a rooftop with some of the people from the studio hello, mescal, and then aj and we're feeling magical. It was like perfect warm night, stars are out and we're like let's go dance, let's go hear music and went to a gay club. Oh, my god, we went everywhere. It was great, yeah that's definitely.
Speaker 4:It's hard for me to choose one, because I feel like those like I have a lot of good times in new york too, but I feel like going and doing things in other countries like that have just like opened up my eyes in ways that I've never, because they're not planned too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, more like go with the flow. I'm like, oh, I have to go to this thing at midnight versus we're like oh we're just gonna just ride along for the adventure and you're like oh, we're home at two in the morning.
Speaker 4:Take a cab, oh that was a juicy night juicy night I would say those moments definitely like qualify, like I just love, I love to travel.
Speaker 2:I'm so unique Do you have a best no.
Speaker 3:All right, I mean maybe the day I met my dog, or something that's a hard question.
Speaker 4:That's a tough question. Yeah, it's too much.
Speaker 3:It's too much for me. It's too early, all right 1 pm.
Speaker 2:I should be in bed. Okay, oof, let me read this. If you had to choose between a happy home life and a mediocre career, or a successful career and a mediocre home life, which would you choose?
Speaker 3:damn, that's absurd.
Speaker 4:This is a mean question, I mean, I think I already have a happy home life and a mediocre life. Yeah, I'm each day the same.
Speaker 3:I'm like, I'm there, I'm there I start it up every morning. I know because I'm living that way now.
Speaker 2:I've been waking up before the sun and I have an hour before sunrise and I reflect in this quiet space. I'm just like if I die now I'm okay. Yeah, of course I have dreams and goals and things and I want my name in print and I want all of these little check marks. But how I feel when I wake up?
Speaker 3:that's okay.
Speaker 4:That's something I think I learned from Henry because Henry has gotten a lot of success as one Grammy yeah your husband? Yeah, he's won Grammys been on tours all over. He's the shit. He's the shit. He's really good.
Speaker 2:He's the humblest biggest shit.
Speaker 4:you would meet, you would never, ever know. And he told me and I believe it he's like all that stuff is great, but I've found way more happiness in our family and in our home than there Kissing you snuggling the cats and the plants? I feel like you can have both. I don't know I feel like I already have and I'm good with it. I wouldn't want to give up my happy home life to be majorly successful. I feel like you can have both.
Speaker 2:I don't think mediocrity needs to be a vocabulary word. Yeah, there can be continual goals.
Speaker 4:Right, and you can also be really good at your craft and just not have recognition.
Speaker 3:You know yeah, until after you die. Yeah, which is normally what I think of it.
Speaker 4:I think about van gogh so much yeah I know, I just changed mine okay, perfect, now we have.
Speaker 2:Oops, I made noises, sorry, I'm a fidgeter. So to finish off our lovely conversation, we have a little game. Oh, it's called fuck kill b okay, which is a riff on fuck kill marry, because you don't want to marry someone. You want to be that person. That's true. So we're shifting the paradigm on that, and Rita is sure, that's, very very talented and picking out some whoppers for us to choose between oh yeah, okay, just had a good idea.
Speaker 3:All right, I'm lightning-minded, I do. All right, we're going to do Van Gogh, pollock Bacon.
Speaker 4:I want to be Bacon. That's what I think 100%. He's just. I mean, he's probably my favorite artist.
Speaker 1:Me too. I am just.
Speaker 4:I mean, you can see, I get it all and it's like the biggest compliment when people are like, oh my God, I can see the Bacon in your work and I'm like I could cry Same. I agree that's the biggest compliment.
Speaker 2:Look at the cover of her book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:No, instantly I was attracted to it.
Speaker 4:It's very Bacon-esque. Yeah, so he would definitely be him. Wait, what is fucking Fuck? Kill and be. So you're going to be Bacon. Okay, I'm going to be.
Speaker 3:I'm going to kill Pollock. No, I was like he sucks right, until the first time I ever saw one of his pieces live. Oh yeah. And it was so emotional, and so it just changed my mind completely. I mean, his art is amazing. No, you're wrong.
Speaker 4:I mean he sucks more, so he's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he sucks as a person. He sucks as a person.
Speaker 4:And as a person from Long Island, there's so much lore about him on Long Island.
Speaker 1:I've been to his house.
Speaker 4:I've walked on his, so you can go visit his house, so you can go visit his old house in Long Island and his studio is there. I don't know if you listen to it anymore, but I did it when I was there. They give you these little slippers. You take off your shoes, they give you little slippers, and you go into a studio and the bottom like it's the floor of the studio is like a painting yeah, obviously. So you like walk on over the floor like you're walking over a little paintings. I love his work. Oh, that's cool.
Speaker 3:It's just um him as a person, oh, yeah, she was like trash, yeah, trash, and then uh I can't remember what are the options you can't go.
Speaker 2:You're gonna van gogh, oh god, okay, no, I'm gonna change. I would probably pollock. I don't want to kill. Why can't I remember what are the options?
Speaker 3:You can't you can't you can't fuck Van Gogh, so you have to excuse me, van Gogh.
Speaker 4:Okay, no, I'm going to change. I would probably fuck Pollock. I don't want to kill Van Gogh, I know. Oh my God, this is so hard. It is hard, isn't it? Yeah, I feel like Pollock would kind of be a good fuck. Yeah but he would have killed himself anyway.
Speaker 3:Also. True, I'm kind of going to go with you, I'm going to yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's a threefer. Yeah, all right. Pollock for me is annoying. He was as fucked up as he was too. He got me interested in Jungian philosophy because he was such a follower of that and I found Jungan's perspective on certain things helpful for me at certain times, especially, you know, the concept of, you know, the animal and shadow self, like those were the first times that I really found vocabulary to kind of describe some of my inner turmoil or things that I was trying to find balance with my shadow self.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I also feel like if you fucked Mango, he would like be crying yeah, it would be a lot. It would be a lot, or? He would cut off his other ear, right we already know, that's like what brought the ear off, like a relationship, like you know, like Pollock would be like very toxic, but like he probably would be like, but he would offer you a drink and a cigarette yes, like like you can never see him again, but but you would at least have a glass of wine and a cigarette afterwards.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's true I bet he's pretty good at that I bet he's pretty good.
Speaker 3:All right, well, on that note. Next time, right um. Where can we find your?
Speaker 4:book. Uh, you can find it through. You can either find it on my own website, which is aj-springercom, or you can check it out on the publishing company Snap Collective. And then also I'm setting up right now I'm setting up a shop on my actual Instagram page and that is at underscore AJ Springer.
Speaker 2:She's not AJ Springer, she's a football player.
Speaker 4:So if you're ever Googling- AJ Springer just put in her yeah, I'm unfortunately not a hulking beautiful black man.
Speaker 2:But we'll put it in show notes. I wish I was.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we'll put it in show notes All right well cheers, katie, I wish I was.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we'll check.
Speaker 4:All right. Well, cheers, ladies.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, cheers.
Speaker 4:This has been super fun. Thanks again, all right, yay.
