E22: Unraveling the Enigma of the Winchester Mystery House: A Labyrinth of Ghosts and Grief

As we crossed the threshold of the Winchester Mystery House, we can't shake the feeling that countless eyes are watching visitors from the mansion's hidden corners. Join us on Macab at Midnight for an exploration into the labyrinthine estate, where we share the chilling legacy of Sarah Winchester's bizarre architectural creation. This episode is a patchwork quilt of history, mystery, and the supernatural, sewn together with tales of grief, obsession, and the ghosts that may walk the halls of America's most structurally perplexing home.

Amid the echoes of footsteps through the mansion's confusing hallways, we reflect on the origins of the Winchester family's fortune and the rifle that changed the American Civil Wars' history. We delve into Sarah Winchester's life, piecing together her daily seances, her descent into the life  of a recluse, and the potential reasons for her unending construction project. Was it madness, sorrow, or the advice from beyond that guided her hand? Alyssa adds color to the story with her personal Californian insights, painting a picture of the mansion's enduring allure.

As the episode winds to a close, we shed light on the broader context of the era's spiritual beliefs and the skeptics who challenged them. From the darkened rooms of the Winchester Mystery House, discover with us the human need for the afterlife and how it shaped one woman's extraordinary response to tragedy. Wrap yourself in a cloak of curiosity and maybe even a little whimsy, as we offer our musings on how to keep the spirits at bay. It's a tale that might just have you questioning what lurks in the shadows of your own home.

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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:17

Find other great podcasts like this one at podmothnetwork. No, liz, I have to. No, lindsay, I have to. Lindsay, you can't.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Hello, hauntlings, my name is Alyssa, here with my ghoulishly gorgeous wife and co-host, lindsay. This is Macabre at Midnight, where we rate all things that sit on a scale, starting with the adorably spooky and ending with the truly disturbing. On tonight's episode, we're going to be talking about the Winchester Mystery House Woo, woo woo, also known as the Winchester Mansion. Yes, but as always, before we get into that, we have a little bit of information for you guys. If you tuned into last week's episode which, in my personal opinion, was botched If you tuned into last week's episode, then you know that we are doing a giveaway. That giveaway is for the book by Juneune lungdon. It ends next friday. You can find the link for it in our discord. You can find it on our instagram, wherever you follow us on social media. You can also find it in the episode show notes for episode number 21. Go there, sign up, you know. Make sure you read the rules and enter for your chance to win a copy of June's book.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Yes, I also wanted to talk about our Patreon for a moment. As you guys know, you can donate and get some special happenings there. We did have a couple of donors for April Super exciting, ooh. We want to thank Vampire Sky, who donated on the Eldritch Abomination level Hell yeah. And Pink Lady, who donated on the Cryptid level. So thank you guys. So much for your donations. We are getting your boxes together right now With that in mind. If you guys have already looked at our Patreon, hop back over have another look. I did move things around a little bit because it occurred to me that the $5 box and the $10 box were basically the same, with, like, the difference of Discord channels, and I was like that's not really fair, yeah, especially if you don't really have Discord or don't use Discord at all Right so you do get a little something extra in that $10 box.

Speaker 2: 2:41

That was Lindsay's phone buzzing. You do get something a little extra in that $10 box. Go check it out. Another thing we have a newsletter now. If you're in Discord you'll automatically have access to it, because we post everything that we post everywhere else in Discord. Yep, If not, go sign up for that. That's going to be on podcharmcom forward slash macabre dash at dash midnight. Again, the link is going to be in our about me notes, our show notes.

Speaker 2: 3:08

So, go sign up for that newsletter. It'll talk about things like giveaways, different guests, different updates, how we're going to change things around, all sorts of stuff. God guys, I have so much to tell you. It's been so long. How long has it been? It's only been a week, never mind, I know, but a lot has happened in the last week.

Speaker 2: 3:24

Additionally, we're going to be doing giveaways every month. Once a month, we will do a giveaway and you will get a $20 tier Patreon box. Okay, so those giveaways, we'll post the links whenever we do them. They will run for about two weeks every single time and you will get a free Patreon box at the $20 tier level. So that includes a t-shirt, that includes one piece of macabre midnight merch, access to unedited show notes and unedited content. You'll get to hear our mess, oh gosh, and our dogs, our struggle with technical difficulties.

Speaker 2: 4:01

Yes, you will also have access to our uh, we're working on a series that is for patreon users, called terrifying travels and that is where we will be traveling around different areas once a month that are considered to be haunted or rumored to be haunted, and we're going to take our little travel mics and we are going to ghost hunt and discuss the history of the area while we are actually in the location. And you'll get that on every tier, of course, but whenever we enter you in that drawing we will send you a digital copy of the file. If you win that $20 tier, that will be that bonus content. Yeah, so that's exciting. We have. I'm all over the place because usually I have this all written down, but I don't today. So we have that. We're recording before work. Again for lindsey, yes, so apologies in advance if I sound extremely tired. She just got up like an hour ago I am tired.

Speaker 1: 4:57

It's been a rough morning.

Speaker 2: 4:58

We we had a battle with a wasp. He's still out there in the house. Somewhere I dropped a like freaking 60 foot metal chair on my foot. You know, rolling lind still out there in the house. Somewhere I dropped a like freaking 60 foot metal chair on my foot. You know, rolling lindsey out of bed is never easy. I got maybe like four or five hours of sleep last night, yeah, so, um, so I'm just gonna sit over here and drink out of my new macabre at midnight mug, which you can get on our second tier on patreon, while I listen to lindsey tell us about the winchester mansion. So take it away, lindsey.

Speaker 2: 5:27

Well, um, you lived in california for a time yeah, very, very short time when I was very young, but we used to travel there. Do you remember much about california? Yeah, yeah, I do. How about san jose specifically? Yeah, because we would travel to that area for vacation once in a while. We would go to like the pier and Six Flags, so that San Jose is by. It's pretty close to San Francisco, yeah, yeah, and we would go to like San Francisco and they didn't have a Chinatown, but they had a Japantown which was super cool. Oh, that's really cool. I'd like to visit there sometime. Actually, I wouldn't mind actually visiting the Winchester Mansion.

Speaker 1: 6:05

I think that would be neat.

Speaker 2: 6:06

Yeah, one time we went there, that was like the one place I wanted to visit. Yeah, and we were going to visit it, but it was closed on the day that we went to go, so we didn't see it, that's a bummer, because just looking out the outside of this place, it is massive. Oh yeah, like we saw it from the outside, it was really beautiful.

Speaker 1: 6:23

Oh yeah, it was really beautiful. It is, it is.

Speaker 2: 6:26

It is really pretty and of course we'll probably post pictures of it on our social media and such.

Speaker 2: 6:31

We're going to try to. Yeah, we've been terrible at keeping up with social media, but we are working with our, we're correlating with V to try and get her it. Oh yeah, she's a lifesaver and, uh, you know. So she's definitely helped us with the social media aspect of it, so hopefully we can get some quality control in there. But go on, sorry, yeah, so if you look at it from the outside, I believe the color of the outside is like a golden yellow, yes, and then it has this really pretty like red roofing and that's all the roofing and all of the weird jumbled places that it is because it is all jumbled together. Yeah, yes, it is the house. The house doesn't really have like a defined house shape. It's just a bunch of little tiers of roofing.

Speaker 2: 7:26

Imagine that you're like eight years old and you're playing the Sims and you want to build a mansion. That's what this house is like. You just keep adding layers and layers. Yeah, you just like build random freaking walls because you want the room to be shaped a certain way, so you have like a hidden room that doesn't have a door to it. Well, did you know? Supposedly the house. It's like 162 acres or something like that. No, I don't know any like numerical details. I suck at numbers. I guess the garden, which was like a Victorian-style garden, was about 18 acres.

Speaker 1: 7:58

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 7:59

And that's just the garden. You know, it's amazing, that's a massive garden, yeah, uh, so, as a tourist, uh, what, what all were you able to see from? Uh, I was very young so I will try and tell you as much as I remember. I remember driving up to it and, like we could see the front of the house. There were a lot of trees, because california has a lot of trees, and I think that there was a gate. I don't remember, but like, I remember being able to see, like the kind of like the second floor of the house through the trees and stuff. Yeah, you know what I mean and that's really all I remember. See, that's interesting because every picture I find of it is like an aerial view and that's just the capture, like how enormous, yeah, this house is. Yeah, and there's a reason for it, which we're going to dive into. Are you ready? I am as ready as I'm gonna be.

Speaker 2: 8:52

Our story begins in 1839, when sarah hardy would be born in new haven, connecticut. Okay, um, around and around. This time is when will William Winchester would be growing up. I think they were roughly around the same age. I didn't get an exact age on him, but they both grew up in New Haven. They were both from really well-known families and community, so jumping forward to 1857, now we have Oliver Winchester, who's William's father. I love the name Oliver, like it's. So. I know it's an old name it is. I don't like a lot of old names, but I like the name Oliver. There's something about it. It sounds so clean and nice. I love all of the Olivers out there. I love you.

Speaker 2: 9:39

Olivers. I don't feel like it's a name you hear very often. It's not a very common name anymore. No, it's not, but it's very clean sounding. It makes me think of the color copper, like a really pretty shiny copper. I still think of the green shade that Oliver Green that it's named after. I didn't know it was named after a green shade. I wonder if I think of copper because the cat in me was copper colored. Oh, you know what? Maybe? I didn't even think about that. Okay, anyway. So in 1857, oliver winchester this is william's father he takes over the volcanic repeater. That's a manufacturer who made rifles that use the lever. Oh, yeah, yeah, they use the lever, like on the top that you pull back you pull back to drop the.

Speaker 2: 10:22

you know the bullet to fire Like up on the top that you pull back.

Speaker 2: 10:24

You pull back to drop the bullet into the chamber. Yeah, that was more practical than the musket. Yeah, you had to. You know, like, put the Stuff a stick down in it. Yeah, put the musket on the ground. Like, stuff the gunpowder down in there, take the stick and do all that. Yeah, yeah, imagine an intruder gets into your house. Get the musket. You missed the first freaking time, sorry. Oh, I missed him. Duck, can you just give me a second? Just hold still. Yeah, stop moving so I can reload real quick. Yeah, please, just we can continue this in, like in like three minutes, okay, take like five minutes to reload your musket. Like I'm getting there, you wait, you just wait right there, don't you move. How about? You both have muskets and then you're trying to rush. You're trying to rush to reload it, like whoever gets it done faster, spilling gunpowder everywhere. At that point I'm like just give me a lighter, I'm gonna light the gunpowder. We're both going up. If I can't win, you can't win either. So the Winchesters acquire that.

Speaker 2: 11:38

Sorry, I know you're right, you're still picturing it.

Speaker 1: 11:44

I am yeah but that's how.

Speaker 2: 11:46

That's how wars and battles and shit were fought until these rifles came out. I mean, that's not funny, but I'm just thinking, like the revolutionary wars where these kind of guns were used. You know, like jesus, what a pain that must have been, as if the like treacherous weather and all that crap wasn't bad enough, right. But we're a hundred years forward. We were very sidetracked. But guys, that's hilarious, don't act like you're not laughing.

Speaker 2: 12:13

okay, go go ahead. Sorry, okay, so after they acquire the assets to this repeater rifle that's a more way more practical than the musket. In 1860, the Winchesters decided there was still room for improvement. So they would come to develop the Henry rifle, which had a magazine that was located under the barrel, and it was actually the first rifle that could rapid fire. It could shoot up to 15 bullets. Okay, so they didn't have to reload right away.

Speaker 1: 12:46

That is way more practical than I thought it would be.

Speaker 2: 12:48

This gun would be utilized in the height of the Civil War. It would actually be the gun that would become famous to have won the West during the Civil War. I've heard of Henry.

Speaker 2: 13:01

Oh yeah oh yeah, really famous gun. So around this time, oliver Winchester would decide to change the name of his company to the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. Okay, I think that's still the name of that company. I mean, there's still like Winchester Rifles, it's gotta be Winchester. I don't know if they ever changed it. If they did, they probably just shortened it. Well, that's what I'm saying. Are these winchester? Yeah these, these are the winchesters, these are the ones who made the famous winchester yeah, I had no idea that, like the mansion, winchesters were the same oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 2: 13:33

yes, but we'll get there. So shortly after this, in 1860, the henry rifles made, the company changes its name and then in 186262, sarah and William would get married. So now Sarah becomes Sarah Party Winchester, sarah Party Winchester, that's right. Party Party, party Party Winchester. Yes, p-a-r-d-e-e. It'd bea hell of a family to marry into. I mean, think how successful they must have been. Their rifles took off in the Civil War. I know they won the Civil War with those rifles. Yeah, oh, my god, you know what I bet they were like, highly revered after the frickin' Civil War man, and like, not to mention, they were already like one of those big renowned families. Those big renowned families, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:30

So in july 15 of 1866, william sarah would welcome their first and only child. Her name would be annie party winchester, which I actually think that they named the character something after her. I think annie oakley is somewhat related to her somehow. I don't know. I don't know, I didn't look that far into it, but I thought I heard that somewhere. Well, I don't know who annie oakley is. First of all, sadly, oh my god, she died the infant annie would pass away.

Speaker 2: 14:54

I knew it. All the children died on july 24th, not even a month after she was born. Oh, that's so sad. She would die from a rare disease called Marasums. I think I said that right, spell it for our medical people M-A-R-A. I like how you just start spelling while I'm still talking, like I hope they can decipher that. Okay. Okay, I'm going to spell it it's M-A-R-A-S-M-U-S. Okay, it, it's m-a-r-a-s-m-u-s. Okay, uh, this it's a life-threatening disease. That, like, is a nutritional deficiency.

Speaker 2: 15:33

apparently, if a child gets it, they just have a hard time gaining weight so maintaining their weight, is it like do you know if it's something they develop, or is it something?

Speaker 1: 15:40

it's something they're born with.

Speaker 2: 15:42

Okay, that's, that's really and it's really hard to cure like especially in infants, because you can't gain weight even today it's hard to cure yeah, that's what I read. Like it takes up to a month to to cure and that's with constant treatment, and this is the 1860s. Yeah, so I imagine that was kind of hard, even for a wealthy family you know, especially like in the 1860s. Oh yeah, where they didn't have like modern medicine.

Speaker 2: 16:09

Yeah, I mean we kind of talked about that in our in our Waverly and our our Stanley Hotel episodes. You know, they were on like the brink of like medical science was just kind of. They were just kind of learning about about it, and people were just learning about bacteria and microorganisms. Yeah, they were on the edge of the big medical science boom here, right, but I don't think there were any IVs they could have stuck in this child to give her food, to continually give her nutrients, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:41

So she passed away. Unfortunately, the grief from losing her daughter, with Sincera, into a state of near madness for about a decade, oh my God, a period of grief that she wouldn't come out of until it was too late for her to try for another child, that is so sad man. I hate that for her. That is awful. That is so sad man. I hate that for her, that is awful. Well, the only reason why she couldn't have another child is because by this date her husband, william, would have contracted tuberculosis. Jesus, that tuberculosis man. That was a killer in the 1800s. Before this, her mother and her father-in-law so Oliver Winchester and her mother, would both pass away in 1880. This poor woman. And then in 1881, william would die to tuberculosis. Oh my god. He passed away March 7th 1881, and he left his entire Winchester fortune to Sarah and Sarah alone. Aww, well, I mean, who else was he going to leave it to that? Their kid didn't survive? Did he have, like, any brothers or anything that you know?

Speaker 1: 17:49

of.

Speaker 2: 17:49

No, okay, so it would make sense that it would go to her anyway. She would inherit about 50% of the Winchester Company. $20 million, dang, that's a lot today, can you imagine? Oh yeah, today that is actually $600 million. And because she owned 50% of the company, she still had a salary of about $1,000 a day. Woo, and that wasn't even taxed until 1913. Untaxed until 1913. Oh my gosh, wow, he definitely took care of his wifey before she left.

Speaker 2: 18:25

She was rolling in it. She had so much money. So you know, obviously money doesn't cure heartbreak. No, it wasn't enough. Yeah, because after losing her child, her mother, her father-in-law and her husband, sarah sought out spiritualism in order to try and figure out why all these bad things were happening to her, because she believed she was cursed. Oh, that really makes me sad. That makes me so sad. Spiritualism was another thing that was like in this time period.

Speaker 2: 19:01

yeah, houdini was singing out spiritualism after his mother died so like it was really popular in this time, which I think we've touched on in past episodes. I don't remember. I yeah, I think there was an episode recently where we talked about how that was becoming like a popular, like past time for especially like the wealthy, like seances and things like that, where they would try to contact the spirits. And that's exactly what she did. She went to a medium or a spiritualist to try and figure out why all these bad things keep happening to her.

Speaker 2: 19:31

The spiritualist claimed that she or that they I don't know if the person she spoke to was a man or a woman, it didn't say but they claimed that they were in contact with her husband, her deceased husband, and the message that Sarah got was that she needed to move west, she needed to find a home that she could continue to build in order to make the spirits from the people who have who were killed by the Winchester rifles be at rest. Otherwise, she would be haunted for the rest of her life by them. Oh my God. Okay, so can I? Just before we get into this, I just want to give like my thoughts before and then compare like my thoughts after, because I do already know some things about this and I think a lot of our listeners do yeah honest conversations with interesting people.

Speaker 1: 20:33

Hi, I'm mike from the genuine chit chat podcast, and I talk to a wide variety of guests across an eclectic range of interesting topics. People I've spoken to, include a magister from the church of satan, a blind australian and I talk to a wide variety of guests across an eclectic range of interesting topics. People I've spoken to include a magister from the Church of Satan, a blind Australian filmmaker, a puppeteer from Labyrinth and Dark Crystal, and I also speak to musicians of all kinds of genres authors, actors, podcasters. Really, there is no limit to who I speak to and the subject matter is endless. So if you believe in the art of conversation and want to hear different people talking about their passions, then this is the perfect show for you. You can find genuine chit chat anywhere. You listen to podcasts and there's some video versions on youtube, so there's no reason not to tune in you're just I know you're over there thinking like this person took advantage of this grieving widow.

Speaker 2: 21:23

Yeah, it certainly sounds that way. Yeah, but also isn't it weird that, like the place did continue to be haunted after she died? That is the question. Was she really haunted by the, the spirits who were killed by the winchester?

Speaker 1: 21:39

rifles yeah right.

Speaker 2: 21:40

Was she just a mad woman, because if they told her this to take advantage of her, then I hope they're burning. But also just based on what is said now, allegedly maybe this person really was legitimate, but I don't know much about the hauntings of the house yet. Like, I just know it's haunted, so I know that, like they can hear, like working. But we'll get into all that, I'm sure. Oh yeah, go ahead with this message. Sarah would begin her search for the perfect house that would land her three years later, 1884, in west california. So she's gone across the entire country from connecticut, california, and I mean she had the money to do it. I'd have the money to do it too if I was making a thousand dollars a day. I know right, you can move anywhere. You could take as many trips as you want, I know. So in 1884 she would end up in the Santa Clara Valley, san Jose, where she would purchase. Now, one source said it was an eight bedroom house, the other said it was originally a six bedroom house and the 162 acres of land that it sat on. And right away she she took the word of the medium that she spoke to and started building. She started adding on to the house. I can't wait to get freaking YouTube video because the way you nodded and smiled after You're like, yeah, that happened.

Speaker 2: 23:17

I'm just curious, how long do you think she actually built onto this house? For I know she built for the rest of her life. Uh, wasn't it? Like god, I don't remember. Like I have two guesses, okay, uh, one is 23 years. That's very specific, I know, but I feel like that's the accurate one. The other one's like 50, but that's just because I'm covering my butt. Surprisingly, you're closer with the 50. Oh, really, she would build this house and build onto it for the next 36 to 38 years. Oh yeah, I knew it was like a really, like really long time, oh yeah, and she would actually have a staff of like 20 workmen, like constantly year round, kept them employed, kept them working 24 7, you know what they probably didn't even care.

Speaker 2: 24:07

She's probably paying them good. Oh yeah, from what I understand, she actually paid them really well. Yeah, treated them well. They lived in the house while they worked on it and she even had like employee areas for them to hang out in so she was a lovely employer. She was Probably the best and only one in that age.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Like that.

Speaker 2: 24:29

Yeah, really oh yeah, Now, I also did hear that as she got on in her years she became something of a recluse.

Speaker 2: 24:37

Yeah, I've heard that when she wouldn't leave her years she became something of a recluse yeah, I've heard that where she wouldn't leave her house, she wouldn't talk to the staff face to face, like, especially she got older, she had one person that she went through and then that person would communicate with, yeah, the staff. It wouldn't surprise me if she was depressed. To be honest with you, I I think, uh, in one of the documentaries I watched, I heard that she actually constantly kept her face shrouded in a veil, like in that constant state of grieving that they do in the victorian age. That's so sad, yeah, so like nobody saw her, no one talked to her, she kept to herself. She even had secret passages where she can walk around the house without running into anybody. Oh, okay, she is the ghost. Yeah, I mean, might as well be, and you know what? She actually wasn't even that big of a woman. She was only like 4'10", okay, and very small and petite in size.

Speaker 1: 25:41

So she was a very small lady lady.

Speaker 2: 25:42

Oh yeah, now, every day, every day or every night, sarah would meet with the spiritualist, because she actually spiritualist who like who I don't know if it was the same one or a different one in california, so she just would meet with someone. She even had a seance room built to her house specifically for this reason I don't know about all that, but go on. So she would have her daily seances to speak with the spirits to find out what more she needed to add to the house in order to keep them at ease, right? So every morning, when she would meet with the foreman of the builders, she would have with the foreman of the builders. Yeah, she would have different plans for the house.

Speaker 2: 26:25

Okay, all of them hand-drawn. None of them really made sense. I believe it because none of this story makes sense and apparently, if something didn't work out while they were building, if it just didn't work the way it wanted, they just built around it. So there were some walls inside the house that were exterior walls but then became interior walls. There are windows that look into nothing. That would drive me nuts. Doors that Went to nowhere Went to nowhere. Doors that open to a 12-foot drop Yep, there are staircases that don't go anywhere. I've seen pictures of like staircases that literally just go up into a wall.

Speaker 2: 27:07

Mm-hmm, yeah, she added floors and floors and towers to the house. There were chimneys, some of them that didn't even reach the ceiling. You get lost in your own damn house. Oh yeah, this place was a maze and it was made to be a maze Because it was meant to confuse the spirits. I was going to say she's probably trying to confuse the spirits. Keep them away from her. Oh yeah, and I'm just going to list some of the things I found that this place has. So it has like 47 chimneys and, like I said, not all of them are real chimneys, some of them are fake chimneys. They're just chimneys that don't do anything. 15 fireplaces, oh okay.

Speaker 2: 27:52

Several bathrooms, many staircases I didn't get an exact number on the staircases, but did you say many or many, many, many? She added three elevators, good Lord, okay, mini, she added three elevators, good lord, okay. Uh, it had a ballroom. Well, yeah, you need a ballroom. She would add on to this house until it was seven stories tall. That's not a freaking house, that's an office building. I know and you know what's weird, with all its bathrooms and baths and things it had. It only had one shower and it was her shower. Well, these workmen are probably stinky. Well, I mean, they had baths access to baths bathtubs but not a shower.

Speaker 2: 28:27

She was the only person who got the shower. Okay, all right, I'm just, I have obsessive compulsive disorder and this house is stressing me out. Well, I mean, I won't say she had something like that, but she did utilize the number 13 a lot. Almost every window pane had 13 panes of glass. There were some rooms with 13 windows. Do you know what she thought the significance of the number 13 was? No rooms with 13 windows. Do you know what she thought the significance of the number 13 was no, there were floors that had 13 sections. Almost every staircase in the house has 13 stairs. So what that might be is I know today people look at the number 13 as an unlucky number.

Speaker 2: 29:17

There won't be, like, a 13th floor or a 13th stair, which doesn't make any goddamn sense to me because, well, there's 13 stairs of her house. Well, like in spiritualism, the number 13 is actually a very lucky number, is it? It's a good number. If you see it turning up, then it's a. I don't know, I don't deal a lot with numerology. Yeah, but yeah, it's actually a lucky number. It's like it got distorted.

Speaker 2: 29:44

The swastika has a very negative meaning now because of what it's associated with Right, but before they ever took it and did what they did with it, it was actually a positive symbol that was supposed to bring good. I don't know exactly, but it wasn't supposed to be a positive symbol. That was supposed to, like, bring good, I don't know exactly, but like it wasn't supposed to be a negative symbol, and the number 13 is kind of the same way gotcha. So it was probably used as like a ward then for the unrested spirits that she claimed haunted her. I have no idea.

Speaker 2: 30:16

Well, every staircase in the house had 13 stairs, except for one staircase. This would be a spiraling staircase that would have 42 steps. Oh man, the workout that's still not as bad as the frickin' steps to Vlad's castle, right? I mean, you think it would take you all the way up to the top of the house, right? I don't know. I don't know how many steps you need for seven stories. Well, it doesn't, because every step on the staircase that's for two stairs is only two inches tall. You're not going anywhere, oh god. You're going like 10 feet off the ground. You're like walking in a straight line.

Speaker 2: 30:50

Basically, why is it like that? Nobody knows, it just is okay, whatever, just one of those other crazy little features that's. That's more of a slide than it is.

Speaker 2: 31:05

It's a bumpy slide it's the only staircase like that in the entire house. Well, the house would have seven stories up until 1906 and that is when the big, famous earthquake of san franc Francisco would hit. This would strike the house because it is right there in that area, like you said earlier, and the first three stories of the house would collapse. Oh man, I was wondering, because when we saw it you're like, oh, seven stories, and I remember it being big.

Speaker 1: 31:38

But I was like not that big, I don't remember it being that big.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Yeah, okay, that, okay, that makes sense. The collapse would actually trap Sarah in the room that she was in at the time. Oh my God, is this how she died? Just listen, this room was called the Daisy room. The way I think she was trapped in there is like when the stories fell, it collapsed the chimney in that room and that kind of like wrecked the room. Oh no, so like it fell in on her and she was trapped in there.

Speaker 2: 32:02

Fortunately, one of her workers managed to get her out of the oh, thank god, wreckage, but she took this as a sign that she had gotten too close to completing the house. Oh, okay, so in order to remedy this, she sealed off the front 30 rooms of the house and left them unfinished and unrepaired. She boarded them all up. So so, so her. So she thinks that by not finishing them, the house is, the house is supposed to. The idea is, the house is supposed to remain in the constant state of like construction, but it, but, but, okay, but here's the thing if you're not working on it, it's not really in a state of construction, it's just not finished. Well, she also believed that by sealing up those rooms, she might trap some of them inside. So the front 30 rooms were sealed up and the house continued its expansion.

Speaker 2: 33:06

This woman is tragic, but she's gotta know that, um, ghosts can walk through walls. Maybe, like maybe, they can walk through walls. I don't know what her, her thoughts were. I think she just thought this this will keep them at bay for a little while while we continue expansion. And I believe, instead of going up from that point out, she went out. That way, the house didn't collapse again.

Speaker 2: 33:27

You know, yeah, not that I don't think there's been an earthquake quite that devastating since 1906 in san franc, but I don't really know. I just know that that earthquake was like it ruined like much of San Francisco. Oh yeah, that's the one. You can get online and find the video of the bridge like dancing, oh yeah, and like the street kind of like doing this little wave thingy. Yeah, it did like, yeah, crazy craziness. Now, september 4th of 1922, sarah would have her final seance session. As in she's gonna die soon, or as in she, yeah, after she goes to bed after her seance. She would not wake in the morning. Oh, she would pass away in her sleep, in her sleep you know what this woman went through a lot.

Speaker 2: 34:16

I think she deserved a peaceful death. She was 83 years old when she passed away. That was old for back then. That's. That's old for now, but that is old for back then that is very old for back then.

Speaker 2: 34:27

Okay, now the estate would be inherited by her niece, who's francis maria, and actually her niece had been handling sarah's affairs for a while because, like I said, as she got older she became a recluse. She didn't go outside, she didn't talk to anybody, right, so niece's hands were kind of in on this. Yeah, I, I don't believe she even left her room much in her older age. By the time of her death most of the fortune was gone. Yeah, she spent it all on building a house. Yeah, most speculate that she spent it on the 40 years of construction.

Speaker 2: 35:01

Yeah, but there are rumors don't say it's built somewhere in the house, in a safe, somewhere there could be like a stash of money that was set aside to like appease the. I feel like that's one of those embellishments that we talk about. Maybe, I don't know, they did find a safe hidden behind six doors. Oh, did they? Oh, yeah, but the only thing in the safe were mementos from her late husband and her child, so like a photograph, like a lock of hair, I think, and then like something of his that's so precious of hair, I think, and then like something of his that's so precious, like that's so sad, because they were precious enough to her that she put them in a safe.

Speaker 2: 35:38

Yep, did your heart not break when you were reading about this woman's life? Yeah, I felt bad for her. She was definitely, like she's very tragic. She like her heart broke and it never got better. She like remained in a state of grieving forever until the day she died. That is so freaking sad. I hate that. Yeah, especially, like you know, she walked around the house in a veil Right and, from what I've heard, there were stages to grief in the Victorian age. Well, I mean there are now. I mean like they would actually wear.

Speaker 1: 36:12

Oh, you mean like legal state.

Speaker 2: 36:14

Like they had to wear black for the first year yeah Like their entire would change, like they would wear all black.

Speaker 2: 36:20

They would have a veil over their face. I didn't know about the veil. I know that a widow in mourning had to wear black for a year after her husband passed and she couldn't marry or anything. That's another thing. I think she was only ever seen wearing black and the veil shrouding her face. That was her life. She lived it constantly in mourning, constant, just building and building on this house. After her niece got the house and there wasn't much money left, they took all of Sarah's personal belongings out, which was said to have taken up to six weeks because the movers kept getting lost, kept getting lost in this house Trying to retrieve her items, which I can understand. Can you imagine, oh my god, you're walking down a corridor and you're like wait a second, which way did I come from? Do you think it's bad where we work? Like when you first get to the back of house? Can you imagine? Can you freaking imagine?

Speaker 1: 37:20

No.

Speaker 2: 37:22

Where is Bobby? You haven't seen Bobby in like two days. He's freaking so you gotta take like food and water in there with you. And this is the 1920s. You ain't got like a walkie talkie to be like hey, the 1920s, you ain't got like a walkie talkie to be like, I mean, like a can and a string. You can't. You can't just call them up on your cell phone like, hey, yeah, I'm in the the six bathroom on the fourth floor. Where are you? You?

Speaker 2: 37:53

I really don't know, but they should have tied. I don't even know. I would have tied a really ball of yarn to the front door and then walked with the string. Everyone just has a different color. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:09

Oh god.

Speaker 2: 38:10

Remember, jim, yours was purple. Follow the purple string to get back. Who cut my string? It somehow loops back around. You're like wait a second. I've been going around in a circle for two hours, oh my god. Yeah. But after they managed to get all her belongings out, the house would be sold off to some investors who decided to change it into a tourist attraction. One of these investors would be Robert L Ripley. Oh my god. You know what's funny? As I almost mentioned at the beginning, we went to Ripley's, believe it or Not, but we didn't get to go to the Winchester house. I should have said it. Yeah, he actually did feature the house in Ripley's Believe it or Not. At the time it was, uh, listed to have 148 rooms.

Speaker 1: 39:00

Do you remember that show?

Speaker 2: 39:00

yes, I loved that show. We watched it. It was so freaking that that was the beginning of my interest in the disturbing. Oh yeah that that show was definitely really cool and the museum's really cool too. But then later, in another article uh, 1928, published in 1928, the house would claim to have 160 rooms. Oh thanks, so this is a fun fact. Nobody actually knows how many rooms are in the house because every time they try to count them, they lose, count or get lost. You know, I feel like there's a smart way to do this, though you know like the yarn can get you back to the beginning. You can put numbers in the room.

Speaker 2: 39:33

Start leaving arrows down to, literally, labyrinths. That's how Sarah got through the labyrinth she lip-sticked. But what if the house changes? What if it changes while you're? It doesn't? They might say it does, but it doesn't. It might feel like it does, with how confusing this house is.

Speaker 2: 39:52

But I'm just saying I would hang hang numbers on the walls Like this is room one, this is room two. You know what I mean. So you know if it's been counted. Yeah, I mean, that's an idea. Today the house is owned by the National Park Services. It's protected as a historical landmark Makes sense. It is open to tourists and tourism. They have tour hours. They have tour hours. You can take tours. I think they might have haunted tours too.

Speaker 2: 40:16

That's what we were going to go on. This house is said to be the largest haunted house in America. Yeah, I mean, obviously it has an unknown amount of rooms, at least 160. That's a lot of rooms. Yeah, yes, it is so the type of hauntings that are said to occur in the house are shadow figures, footsteps.

Speaker 2: 40:42

You can hear the workers, the furniture being moved around, shuffling, and they say that sarah winchester herself still haunts the house. I wouldn't be surprised. She's probably still stuck in a state of freaking mourning. But maybe you know, when you have a tragic life like that, a lot of times it's really hard to move on. Yeah, and she died in her sleep. She died in that house. Yeah, that house was her life. It was the only thing she did with her life after she lost her husband. Right from 1884 to 1922. That house was everything I mean. She didn't leave the house, she didn't talk to anybody outside the house.

Speaker 2: 41:20

That that was all she had. It was like her obsession, yeah, just constant building and building and building. So, yeah, I wouldn't doubt it if she still haunted this house, and I mean there have been reports of sightings of her, at least like her apparition, wandering the halls. She's known to like haunt the room that she died in, so not the daisy. The daisy room wasn't actually her bedroom, she had another bedroom, but that's it. I mean, it sounds like your regular type of haunted house. For the most part, there's nothing crazy negative going on there, just mostly residual. It sounds like residual. Now I did watch some investigators and actually the all the responses they got were quite intelligent. Oh really, oh yeah, wow, like they believe, they contacted sarah herself and she followed them throughout the house. Oh my god, while they were doing their investigation do you know what was said? They kept asking sarah herself and she followed them throughout the house. Oh my god, while they were doing their investigation do you?

Speaker 2: 42:15

know what was said. They kept asking sarah, is that you? Did you just light that up? They had REM pods, yeah, um, they had, like this little music box that would go off when you got close to it, which I thought was really cool, yeah, and so those would keep going off and every time they would ask like, is that you, sarah? It would say, say it would respond like, yes, that was me or it's me. Wow, that's freaking wild. Where would you rate this? I'm going to say this is disturbing, truly disturbing, for me, just because the idea that she's still there, maybe, you know, wandering the house, maybe still trying to figure out how to continue to build it, which, even after death, I think would be horrible. I agree with you, I think that it's truly disturbing, but not because of the haunting part. I think everything that occurred leading up to it.

Speaker 2: 43:05

Oh yeah, not only that, it's just the fact that this was her life. Right, this is all she did for the last 40 years of her life. Right, I would say that it's truly disturbing. Like living a life like that would be truly disturbing. And the fact that she did it because she was so convinced that she was being haunted by the spirits of the people killed by their winchester rifles.

Speaker 2: 43:28

Yeah, imagine carrying that guilt. You couldn't eat. She couldn't even enjoy the wealth that she inherited or even maybe have hands in the company that she half-owned, because she was so obsessed because of the life she lived. That's all she did for the last four years of her life was build this house, build on this house. That would be a really tragic way to live, especially back then. They didn't have the science and stuff we do now. People were more liable to believe in the spiritual world, which I believe exists, but back then I feel like a lot more people they just like you'd believe the first guy that walked by you and said, hey, the ghost of your, your bonnie boy over there says this and I'm a psych, you know oh yeah there was.

Speaker 2: 44:12

It was hard to prove credibility right, like I mean it still is, but we know to be more skeptical. Yeah, because people, people were just claiming they, anyone could, like you said, anyone could claim they were a psychic, medium, psychic, and I've mentioned in the past how like people would have their kids like hiding cabinets and like knock on the cabinets and they would hold like seances. You know, like I've mentioned that. So, um, so, if that initial psychic took advantage of this woman, shame on your soul. Shame on your soul.

Speaker 2: 44:43

So that was a wild walk through history it was very tragic, but if you like this episode of macabre at midnight, then make sure you like, rate and subscribe. It helps us reach new listeners like you. If you guys are feeling so generous, head on over to our patreon and, and if you feel so inclined, help us out. Support us by going over to patreon and give us a donation. Our donation tiers start at five dollars and that's going to be at patreoncom forward slash midnight podcast 24 and also sign up for our newsletter or join our discord. The links are in our about me and until then, make sure to sprinkle a little bit of salt in your carpet. Burn some sage and we will see you in your nightmares. Stay skeptical, stay skeptical.