As we peel back the layers of James Hutchins Jr.'s life, it's like unearthing a hidden gem in the world of education. His rise from the raw streets of Ontario, California, to the esteemed corridors of academia is not just a story of personal triumph; it's a beacon for the kind of leadership that ignites change in the lives of young Black men. This episode doesn't shy away from the tough conversations—it embraces them, revealing the profound influence of mentorship and the unwavering significance of African-American role models in our schools.
Venturing into the realms of identity, trust, and leadership, James offers an intimate portrayal of his transformation. The guidance of his principal, Mr. Joshua Kirk, and the brotherhood of Omega Psi Phi were pivotal in molding a guarded youth into a principal who lives the ethos of servant leadership. Together, we wade through the challenges and biases ingrained within our systems, discovering how to forge a legacy that continues the march of civil rights pioneers while relentlessly pursuing self-improvement.
Ending on a note that's as practical as it is profound, James walks us through the complex landscape of financial literacy and family dynamics within the Black community. His personal anecdotes are more than just stories; they're lessons in navigating finances, the power of vulnerability, and the catalysts for personal growth—a true call to action for anyone aspiring to leave an indelible mark on the generations to come. Join us for this life-affirming journey on the latest episode of the Journey to Freedom podcast.
As we peel back the layers of James Hutchins Jr.'s life, it's like unearthing a hidden gem in the world of education. His rise from the raw streets of Ontario, California, to the esteemed corridors of academia is not just a story of personal triumph; it's a beacon for the kind of leadership that ignites change in the lives of young Black men. This episode doesn't shy away from the tough conversations—it embraces them, revealing the profound influence of mentorship and the unwavering significance of African-American role models in our schools.
Venturing into the realms of identity, trust, and leadership, James offers an intimate portrayal of his transformation. The guidance of his principal, Mr. Joshua Kirk, and the brotherhood of Omega Psi Phi were pivotal in molding a guarded youth into a principal who lives the ethos of servant leadership. Together, we wade through the challenges and biases ingrained within our systems, discovering how to forge a legacy that continues the march of civil rights pioneers while relentlessly pursuing self-improvement.
Ending on a note that's as practical as it is profound, James walks us through the complex landscape of financial literacy and family dynamics within the Black community. His personal anecdotes are more than just stories; they're lessons in navigating finances, the power of vulnerability, and the catalysts for personal growth—a true call to action for anyone aspiring to leave an indelible mark on the generations to come. Join us for this life-affirming journey on the latest episode of the Journey to Freedom podcast.
All right. Well, welcome to another edition of the Journey to Freedom podcast. And each and every time that we do this, you know, our goal this year that I've been talking about is 100 Black Men. 100 Black Men that we are really trying to solidify what our place is. And how do we show up places with whatever our past is, whatever was the past, and then how do we mold that into the future. And so each of these guests are unique in their own way. Unique because they are, I guess, pillars in their communities. There are folks that are looked up to in the communities in which they serve, and so today we have James Hutchins on.
Speaker 1:James Hutchins Jr, as you can see out here, and he is an assistant principal at a high school in Southern California. The year before he was a principal at an elementary school and I'll let him kind of tell his story and his journey. But you know the responsibility because you know in the in the district he was in last year, there weren't very many black principals that were there. In the district that he's in now, there aren't very many Black assistant principals, and so his journey and the things that he's gone through are just exciting to me. To give a caveat he is my son-in-law. He married my daughter and I'm so excited that he did and so just so proud of him and what he's been able to do. But that doesn't take away from his accomplishment. That doesn't take away from the things that he's been able to accomplish and do as most of the guests that I get to have on the show, I probably know him better than I know all the other guests but at the same time, just the things that he's been able to do.
Speaker 1:So, james, thank you for being on the show. I'm excited that you're here. I'm excited that you're here. Why don't we just kind of? You know, you know we have the five pillars, which are, you know, trust, identity, faith, health and finances, and you know you can speak to any of these that you would like or not. But maybe we can just start out with kind of your background. Where you grew up, you know what kind of shaped who James Hutchins Jr is.
Speaker 2:For sure. Well one, brian, thank you for having me here. I appreciate it. It's an honor to do this with you, and I respect everything that you're doing with the Journey to Freedom. So this is an awesome process and this is something that definitely is needed in our community to be able to highlight African-American men who are moving in a positive direction and trying to be the light in life in certain areas.
Speaker 2:As far as myself, I grew up out here in Ontario, california. It's where I spent most of my time in elementary, middle school and high school, graduated from a high school out here that I'm currently an assistant principal at, but before then, a lot of my upbringing was back and forth between, you know, the Inland Empire and then Pasadena. So I was fortunate enough to have two parents in the household you know who you know supported anything that I did, but they also came from some rough backgrounds, with gang violence, you know, possible drugs and stuff like that. However, their thing was for us not to do that and, regardless of how, anytime that we may step back into that, they always push for us to be better than that and to move forward. So, with that being said, it wasn't always easy. It was rough. Coming from a background where neither one of my parents graduated from high school, that was something that they wanted for all their kids and they did successfully get us all through high school, but high school was kind of where it stopped. It was never something of you know what. You need to go further, you need to push past that. You know you could do that. It was graduate high school, get a job, which is completely fine and that's okay.
Speaker 2:However, I, at an early age, started gravitating to certain people that I've seen that look like me at certain schools. At the school that I'm at now, in particular, one of the teachers who is still there, mr Bishop. He was one of those people that I looked at and was like you know what I want to do, what he's doing. And then I had other people, such as yourself, brian, who I met, your daughter in high school. I got to see the things that you were doing as an African-American man, the businesses that you ran, you know, working with our athletics program there, with track, and then working with other people such as like coach rice, who's now dr rice, another person that I just seen and I'm like you know I want to do the things that they did.
Speaker 2:So I started asking questions um, what college did you go to? What did you do? How did you? What did you major in? Um, I felt, I felt the love in math. So I I pursued a math career and started to you know work towards that.
Speaker 2:I was looking more towards engineering, played college football at San Bernardino Valley and then got a scholarship to go play in Massachusetts where I continued my education there, got hurt on the field my junior year and decided to come back home and finish out at University of La Verne year. And decided to come back home and finish out at University of La Verne where I majored in liberal studies to become a teacher, which then I eventually took a job as a paraprofessional and then started trying to move up moved to Colorado, taught out there for a few years, moved to Nevada, taught there for a year, made it my way back home and continued as a math teacher there for a year, made it my way back home and continued as a math teacher. But as that time that I was doing it, I still kept trying to find those figures that I can lean on, to try to make my journey a little less complicated than theirs. So I always try to gravitate to people who are in the position that I wanted to go to, that look like me, who may have faced those obstacles, to where I can see what obstacle they did face and then try to navigate around it so that way I don't have to do that. So when I got to Colorado, I worked with you. You helped me out getting into DCIS Montbello. I got to teach there, had some success there, got to do some things to where then I moved over to another school, started working towards, you know, leading the math department and even talking of possibly going into admin.
Speaker 2:Looking around me, and you know we all know what this looks like in education, there's not too many African-American men who are in higher positions, such as administration, and there's not too many of us that are in fields such as STEM. I've even had some obstacles where I taught at a certain school in an area where I had a teacher tell me, you know, I would never send my students to you because I don't know if you people know math that great, which was tough, and it was interesting because I was sitting there the whole time. Like you know, how do I handle this? Do I act the way that they may want me to and go off in here, or do I stay reserved, you know, smile and then go take that to the union and then, you know, do what I need to do in the proper channels to make sure that this doesn't happen to anyone else that comes into the school to let them know that this is not okay and you will not demean me based off of the color of my skin. So certain things like that made me continue my drive. I wanted to stay in the classroom, I wanted to continue coaching and doing all of that.
Speaker 2:But I did meet an African-American male in my time in Colorado, where we didn't see eye to eye together to begin with, and he was my assistant principal at the school I was teaching at. We didn't see eye to eye together to begin with and he was my assistant principal at the school I was teaching at. We didn't necessarily get along, but he did say something to me that kind of turned on a light bulb and it was James man, you've got a gift you work well with people, you work well with parents, you work well with students. You have the ability to lead at such a young age. We have a lot of coaches that look like us. We have tons of coaches that look like us in higher places. However, we don't have enough coaches with the knowledge, or we don't have enough admin with the knowledge that you have in the field that you're teaching in, that are leading our students, that are helping them understand that they can be there. I know you want to continue to be a head coach, but I see something bigger and better for you in which I would like you to step away from coaching and move towards administration. And I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 2:Trust was a big thing and I know that's one of the pillars. I did not trust many people my background and growing up and sometimes not feeling protected or feeling the care within my own family or within my community. Trust was something that came very last. You had to do a lot to earn my trust, so trusting what this gentleman was telling me was true and not just him trying to push me out of a position was tough for myself, so I continued teaching for another four years until I met another. I had a principal at this time at a school here in California, mr Joshua Kirk. He came to me after my third year of teaching and was like hey, hutch, we've been talking about this. I don't know what your plans are. I've talked about you in my principal meetings. I think it's time for you. We need you to lead. You've taken on leadership positions as a teacher here. I want to see what happens.
Speaker 2:And I think that it kind of opened up with me now tying my trust into what I identify as or my identity. So I had to take that, that ability to now trust. And hearing it from another person who is in a higher position than a position that I would like to acquire, obtain position that I would like to acquire, obtain, that person now tells me hey, you have it in you, trust in yourself and not just in what people are going to tell you, but trust in what you know and what you believe. And I think that led into me identifying who I am as a person and fully understanding that I have these qualities. I can do this. I need to trust in my abilities and take that leap and I and I think and and and not to like, keep going on with the pillars, but it kind of all ran into it Like I built the trust in myself and others and those are around me, that I'm building within my circle, and then that helped me identify who I am to where. Now I'm confident in what I am, who I am and what I become and what I strive to be better in. So my identity is now being built on a foundation of trust in myself and those around me to continue to push me and challenge me.
Speaker 2:But then it also came into the faith, and I know there's different ways that we can look at faith, and for me it was gaining the faith in myself, faith in the fact that I may make mistakes, but I know that I'm going to do the things to correct those mistakes. But in the whole term of dealing with those mistakes and dealing with that faith in myself, I'm also learning how to be a husband, how to be a father, how to be a friend right, and within that I start tying it into things that I learned from my fraternity. I'm a member of Omega, psi Phi Fraternity Incorporated. So that was the things that you know. Friendship is essential to the soul. How can I be a friend to another friend and how am I living by our cardinal principles? And so, with that being said, I start looking more into faith and religion and learning that I can also be a servant leader. But I can also do that through faith.
Speaker 2:And there were some things that happened in my life, within my marriage, that helped me understand where I had to fall and hit rock bottom to understand that you know what this is having faith in myself and moving in the direction I'm having. Success is great and it's always great, but if you don't have success with no foundation and no faith, then success means nothing at all. So to be able to move with that and now understand that I can be trusting of others, I can identify with who I am and trust myself and fall back on my faith when I'm in those rough times and then also have that, that level of understanding that I'm not going to always be perfect in the things that I do, but I can strive to be the best in the things that I do and my best is what I can give and I can be okay with that. So that's a little bit of my journey and where I've gotten me to being a principal journey. Where I've gotten me to being a principal.
Speaker 2:It's a lot, but it has been a great process and just identifying that and knowing that, as a Black male, that some feedback or some suggestions or resources that I may be given from my white counterparts may not apply to me, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:I may not be able to move in this world the way that they do and they needed to, but know that I can still have the same level of success, possibly if I push through that and knowing that there are going to be those obstacles that are going to come with systematic racism. That is still a part of everything that we do. I still have the opportunity to move past that and be able to strive to be better and strive to do the things that all of the people who came before me in civil rights things have fought for. I now have the opportunity to work on everything within myself in a position to move forward. That way, I can then be that person who paved the path for the next that wants to do it with me, but make it easier for them as it has been made easier for me.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. One of the things that, a thing that I heard in your story and I thank you for sharing that with us is associations, and you talked a lot about the people who shaped you and the people who have been part of your life. There are good and bad associations, and I'm not. You know that.
Speaker 1:We all have the ability, but you know if we're going to move forward, you know, I think God put us on this planet to be better tomorrow than it was today be, better next week than it was this week, to be better next month than it was last month, to be better tomorrow than it was today, be better next week than it was this week, to be better next month than it was last month, to be better next year, better decade. And he put us to progressively grow and that's hard to do without associations, and so maybe you can kind of unpack with us a little bit. Just, you know, you had some really good associations. How did you steer away from some of those negative associations that you know? I'll just say some of the kids that are in your school now are falling into that trap. What are some of the things that you did or were able to do? Or was it because of one association that mentored that helped you? What are some of those things that helped you steer away from some of those bad associations?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing that helped you steer away from that is knowing who you don't want to disappoint. And my biggest thing was there were three people in my life at that time that I didn't want to disappoint. One. I was always seeking the approval of my father. We were on two different paths. He did what he did when he was younger. I was doing what I was doing and you know he kind of lived a rough life. So we never really heard I love you, I'm proud of you and all of that. So for my thing was always seeking approval, like if I do good, then I'm gonna get this With my mom. She was loving, she's nurturing, she always kept me on the right path and I never wanted to do wrong by my mom. But then the last one was myself. At the end of the day, if I am the one and I have these goals and things I want to do, I got to go home and live with myself every day and I think that's something that I'm trying to help our students understand is, if you're not going to do it for any one person or if you don't have an association that's going to keep you there, what are you associating with within yourself that continues to keep you away from these negative and it can be people or social media or any facet of life the negative things that are going to steer you down the wrong direction. And not to say that associations didn't.
Speaker 2:Once I started getting more competitive, I get into football, I'm doing the things that I'm doing. Now I have coaches. One of the ones that I kept real close to me was Coach Brian Gold. He was one of them I was real good friends with. Never wanted to. You know I didn't want to go down that path that he knew that was possibly there for me if I wanted to. Coach Rice is another one was possibly there for me if I wanted to. Coach Rice is another one. And then I'll be completely honest with you being able to come over and I'm at your house. I see the way that you're moving about things. I'm knowing that you have affiliations with our school. I am associated with your daughter. That alone, right. There was always a safe haven for me to be able to move about and if I felt like I was going to a negative place, I had somewhere safe to be and it was always. I mean, and that was one of the things I was always at. If I was at your house, I was safe, I was good, I was hanging out, we were there. I know I was taken care of, it was never a problem, and that even goes with you know, not to say that my house wasn't safe, but I had associations outside of my house that then made me want to continue to do the things that I did. So associations definitely, definitely pushed me towards that. One of the things that I share with the students now is that once I became an adult, I turned 18.
Speaker 2:There was a time, my first year of college, where I decided to work with a group of people where it's like, hey, man, you know what? I got put in a situation where guns are involved. Um, I'm sitting in my car Don't know if I'm gonna make it out of this because I chose to hang out with the wrong people. Um, I don't like this feeling. We're at a party. Um, we trying to figure out where to go. We just seen something happen that we probably shouldn't have seen and now I don't like that feeling. I don't want to be paranoid, so at this time, maybe I need to. It's a wake up call. God put me here to let me know like, look, I'm going to keep you safe tonight, but when you move past this, you need to move in the right direction, and ever since that it was I I gotta before we become friends, before we become anything past acquaintances um, I gotta know that you're on the same track, that I'm on, and if you're not, you're not.
Speaker 2:And one of the people, um, who is still one of my best friends today is devin lebron. Um. He works for a, a record company. Um, I associated with him and him and I. We stuck together even after I left and went to Massachusetts. He went to Laverne. I came back and enrolled in Laverne.
Speaker 2:He's actually the person that came to me and said hey, man, you've been back for almost eight months now. You still got a degree to finish. You need to come enroll at college with me. We're going to get this apartment together and we're going to move forward. You're you, you, you, you, you. You're not just going to give up. I know you were playing in Massachusetts and you done. We're not just going to work a job Like you was going to go get a degree. You need to get up off your butt and come make it happen. Still talk to him today.
Speaker 2:It's those associations that when you find those people who they don't have to say anything but they make you want to do better to them. But then when you find those people who will speak and call you out on your things, stick closer Accountability. Accountability is a big factor and those are the people that will help you get to the places that you want to go. And I always tell students be aware of those people who are, who are OK with you sitting around and just being what the status quo is. We're just going to hang here and do whatever. That person may not have your best interest, they may not even have their own best interest in that moment, which means that they have yours.
Speaker 1:So that's awesome, you know, and you know thinking about associates, because you know, and maybe you can speak to me, any of the folks, whether younger or older, when I think about excuses, right, and people living in the past and saying, well, you know, james, I didn't have did because of what happened to me externally, not internally, but these external circumstances changed my internal being, you know, and I like to say, well, that's not the reason, but for a lot of people they want to say it's the reason. What would you say to folks who come up with the reason they can't achieve now is because of what happened to them back then, and some of it is legit. I mean, obviously, systemic racism is there and there's opportunities and barriers that didn't allow some people to move. In certain ways, it has not been a great country for African-American men over the last 400 years and yet we're here now where we have different opportunities. What would you say to those excuses?
Speaker 2:So I'll give you this as a little snippet of something that I learned that actually helped me it kind of fueled the fire and my drive for just everything in life through my fraternity is that excuses are monuments and nothingness. They build bridges that lead to nowhere. And that's just a little snippet of what I learned in that, and I love that and I always go back to that. Excuses are monuments and nothingness and they build bridges that lead to nowhere. An excuse is going to lead to nothing Now, an excuse that you allow to stop you and it's just stand there as a monument as to why you cannot obtain or succeed at something like it says, in that it builds a bridge that leads to nowhere. However, an excuse that then fuels a fire that drives.
Speaker 2:I think about it all the time. Yes, no one in my family went to college. I could have said, all right, well, no one went to college. There is nothing in front of me that does. But my excuse was, since no one went to college, I'm going to go to college and then I'm going to move past that and I'm going to keep acquiring it. If I feel like that's something that I like, I'm going to do it. There hasn't been too many African-American administrators. Okay, that's an excuse. Well, you know what? Maybe I shouldn't do it because you know there's no way that they're going to hire me anyways. You know, I'm in a school with predominantly white students why would I even try to do that? Or in a district with predominantly white students. No, that's an excuse. As to stop, it is nothing but a roadblock that's not going to allow me to move forward.
Speaker 2:Excuses are okay, though, and I tell students, and I tell anyone that I talk to about that it's okay to have an excuse. It's what you do with that excuse, and at the end of the day, we can say you know what? We live in a country where my skin color, where I came from, is going to determine the outcome of my future. Right, I grew up in the hood and this is for anyone talking, it's just hypothetically. I grew up in the hood, so I'm going to stay in the hood. It's not the case. I've seen many people do it. I've seen people who have turned and changed because you know what? My excuse for where I came from is not my excuse for where I'm going to get. So I am here because of this and that's my excuse. So that's what I would. That's what I share with my students or anyone I talk to as far as excuses.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it, and it's been said that who you become is based on who you hang around with your associations, what you read, who you expose yourself with the things that you do. What can you say about a person I love we're on identity, because I think it's so important. But what can you say to a person who wants to have better associations, that wants to run in different circles and sometimes they want to go? Okay, so I don't have anything, but I want to hang around with millionaires and that gap is so big that they can't understand anything that's being said for a long period of time and they get frustrated and they just stop. How can somebody build a circle of friends or a circle of associations that serve them, that make it better for them to be able to move forward compared to moving backwards? What are some of the things that you can suggest or say in that realm?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing for that is one knowing who you are, knowing your limits, knowing your capacity. I'm not going to go sit myself in a room full of superintendents right off bat. I have aspirations of being a superintendent, but I'm not going to go sit in a room for a superintendent and expect that after a month of sitting with them I know everything that I need to know about being a superintendent. I may go find that retired superintendent. I may find that person who is the next up to become superintendent. I may find someone who is currently in it in their first year. I may find someone that's in their fifth, 10th, 15th year of doing it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to broaden the different type of people within my circle, because if you limit it to only one type of person, how much knowledge are you actually gaining? And I always think of that for myself. I don't just seek information from one specific type of people right Within that. You can break every group into subgroups, right. So if my associations are the type of people that I want to be around, I don't have to go find five Brian Arnold's. I don't have to go find five James Hutchins. I can go find a couple of Joe's, a couple of Jim's, a couple of Nick's and see what I can learn from all of them, but know that it also takes time and then be open.
Speaker 2:And the biggest thing that I would say is that when you do get some nugget of information that then adds to what you're trying to learn, don't just think that you're going to retain it. Write it down. You have to find a way to be able to start pulling this information, organizing it so that way you don't get overwhelmed and you can access that information when it's time for you to access it. If you try to take it all in and I'm with these people for a year and I've learned nothing it's because you had an information overload for information that is useless for that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but, james, I showed up in the room where people are at and nobody came over and said that they want to mentor me. What did I do wrong At?
Speaker 2:the end of the day, no one has no one. You don't have the right to be approached like that. No one's going to approach you just because you showed up in the room. My biggest thing is that if I want to be noticed in the room, my presence is going to speak volumes. I'm going to walk in there with the confidence that I have because I can identify as to who I am as a person. I don't need you to validate that. So if I'm going to walk in and I'm hey, I'm James Hutchins, I'm assistant principal at this high school. Oh, nice to meet you what do you do Now? We're going to start that conversation.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to sit back and wait for it. If I want something, I'm going to go get it. And if we look at the whole of this journey to freedom, right, we didn't sit back and wait for freedom. We didn't. It was a journey that we had to go get ourselves.
Speaker 2:So when I walk in a room and I'm thinking of financial freedom, right, if I want to walk into there and I want to learn something, I can think of it as a counselor at my school right now, where he has a wealth of knowledge, owns multiple houses. Pretty much is a counselor because he wants the health benefits. That's it. If he wanted to quit, he could. He's doing pretty well off.
Speaker 2:I go check in with him at least once or twice a week. I'm taking little nuggets, but I don't wait to say hey, man, you know what? When are you going to come talk to me? It's like I'm about to eat my lunch or in between lunches with students. You got time right now, yep, what do you want to talk about, hutch? This is what I want to know.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about this as far as my finances. Now, my finances aren't the same as yours, but what is something that you did when you were in my situation. Now I can't take everything from him because we're not the same person. I might get something in there that's going to be like you know what. I was on that path. Let me go ahead and do that. And I didn't sit back and wait for it. I wouldn't ask. But it's the same thing walking in the room. I will never walk in the room and then go sit in the corner or sit in the chair. I'm going to go find someone and I'm going to I don't you could be anyone in that room I'm going to start a conversation and, through our conversation, someone else. If they hear something that intrigues them, they're going to join that conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's so important is you know, so many of us want to just go in and be a fly on the wall. But a fly to me, a fly on the wall just gets swatted and then he ends up being dead right, exactly. You know how do I interject myself? I might not even know anything, but if they just know my name and here's the reality of there are people out there that love to help, there are people out there that want to tell you and give you their knowledge. If you just ask, you know, if you just spend the time and say, hey, I don't know what I don't know, I'm not going to pretend I know what I don't know, and I would love for you, even if I have to go buy you a cup of coffee, even if I have to buy you a lunch and we sit down at lunch. If you step out and you apply yourself, it comes back a hundredfold to you in so many different ways.
Speaker 1:Let's pivot to education, because you talked a little bit about education and the importance of education. There's all these different avenues In this day and age. We see that some folks are going to school and they're saying, well, I can't afford to go to school, or I can't afford to be able to do, or I'm not smart enough to be able to learn what I need to learn, and yet so I don't think I'm going to be able to achieve. Because they told me, if without the education, without going to school and getting an education, get a job, I'm not going to be able to be successful. What would you say to that, as you're an educator and you're in there and knowing the importance of education?
Speaker 2:This one may be a little bit different than what you may hear, because I have an interesting philosophy on when it comes to education and, as a former math teacher, one of my things is I'm not when you step into my class. I'm not here to create the next Nobel Peace Prize winner or the next mega mathematician that goes on to increase something. I'm here to teach you how to solve problems and I think that's what school generally should be. Teaching you how to do is how to solve problems, how to stick with something and finish it. Speaking of high school, we get through that. Now. There's other skills that you should be learning life skills like how to pay a bill, how to acquire a mortgage, credit cards all those things I think should be taught in the school, because not everyone has that knowledge to be taught within the household.
Speaker 2:But when we move forward and think about after I've done those 12 years or 13 years or however many years within grade school and I'm now moving to secondary and beyond, into the college world we talk about, you know we don't have the money to pay for it. We have financial aid, right, and I tell students that all the time. Like I have financial aid debt. It hasn't stopped me from doing what I need to do, like, yes, it's scary, it sucks't stopped me from doing what I need to do.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's scary, it sucks to look at something and say I got $100,000 loans. But then also let's check out our resources. If I acquire this loan and I know that I want to get myself into a certain type of, let's say, a profession if I wanted to become a teacher, is it beneficial for me to go take an enrollment at USC, like in your undergrad? And I have these honest conversations with students Not to say that that's bad. But if I'm going to become a teacher and I know that I'm going to make a certain wage, do I want to go get a degree from the University of Southern California right now, not saying that you?
Speaker 2:can't do it later but do I want to get all of that done through that? Or can I go to Cal State, san Bernardino or junior college for two years for you to do it? But then sometimes we get stuck on this and I think of my athletes where it's like, man, I got to go to a big name school, I got to go to D1. What is the likelihood of you making it to the NBA or the NFL or the MLB?
Speaker 1:Let's look at it.
Speaker 2:It's slim. You got to be at the top notch of your game to be able to get there. However, what is the likelihood of you earning an education, getting it paid for, from a four-year institution and getting on a path to be successful in whatever success that looks like for you, right? So there are so many different obstacles financially. No one has never done it in my family that at the end of the point with education, get yourself somewhere that is going to work for you in the long run and, regardless of if you have any loans or anything, use your resources. Find out what programs you can put yourself into to help you have those loans removed or reduced.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think for myself. I got out of school and I'm like, man, I got all these student loans and I'm a teacher, I'm making this. And then I do a little research, talk to a financial person. They're like, hey, why are you not in the public service loan forgiveness program? I'm like, well, what is that? No one's ever told me about that. I don't know what that is. And then I get myself in it and I'm what? Year six of 10, four more years and my student loans are wiped out.
Speaker 1:Yep, absolutely, why not? Oh, I love it, I love it, and so you know, and I'm thinking about you know, you know, in this last piece on associations is part of education and you were saying that there were professors and people, and you know, I just want to kind of how important it is to see people that look like you. You know I my dissertation is on hiring. You know, hiring administration and education and looking at that, how the importance is, should somebody seek somebody out who's in those positions, to just know that it's possible, or is it just we just have to have more people like people who are watching in positions that people can see, or is it both? I mean, what's your thought process on the importance in your life of seeing people who look like you doing things?
Speaker 2:I think it's a lot of both and it's a mixture, and it depends on what your background is coming into it. I think about the two people who told me, palika Houston and Joshua Kirk, who both told me like, hey, man, you need to start moving towards admin. We got coaches. Kirk even told me you're not going to coach when you get here, you're going to run these programs, we're going to put you in some leadership positions, and that was right off the interview. But having two people that look like me in that position and knowing that they can do it, and technically three I mean because you've been an administrator yourself and knowing that that is something I can do and I have this open conversation well, man, I want to do it, but I don't know. Man, it's not that many of us. It's going to be lonely doing that by myself, and it's like no, it's not. I'm telling you to do it because I got you and if you need something, I'm a phone call away. If you need to talk to somebody about that, we can get you in touch with other people. So then it then folds over to the other side. Having that in an educational institution is also very beneficial. Being able to have a student. See that, you know what? And I think about it now.
Speaker 2:I was walking out of my school today and I had three girls walk up to me as I'm leaving and they're like hey, did you come over to Carl's Jr's the other day and order this meal? And I'm like, yep, she was like you didn't see us, you didn't say hi. We were telling our manager that's our principal right there. And I was like I'm so sorry, I was getting food and going, I was not paying attention. I was like I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:But the fact that they can even say sit there and tell their their manager like that's my principal, like that young black man right there is our assistant principal. Or even having kids when I was a principal in elementary we did career day and I have multiple of my African-American kids, including my son, talk about, well, I want to be a principal, I want to be like Mr Hutchins, and these are things that, like these kids probably not would not have said prior to that and I'm not saying that like because I was there it changed. It could have been anyone that looked like them that made them feel that they have the ability to do that. So I think it's a little bit of both having the people there that can help you get there and have that association with them, but also being able to see it at an early age to know that if that is something that I chose to do, he did it, so I know that I can too.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. Let's pivot to family, because the family unit is so important in our society. It's so important If we look back at our history where Black men were taken out of families and you know. Then you know back in slavery, right, and then you come into the 60s and the 70s where they were removed from home so that you know when there wasn't a jobs available and and how hard it is, what. What are some of the conversations? I mean, you, you have children, I have three children and you know they're growing up in today's society. You have children now. You have three children and you know they're growing up in today's society. How is your conversations with your kids Because I know you're, you know a big part of their lives Different from what conversations that you might have had with your dad or your family when you were growing up? And what is the? Because of where you're at now and because of your identity, of who you believe in yourself, how has that changed?
Speaker 2:I think a lot of it. The biggest change that I see and from coming from being a child with a father to being a father with children, is the vulnerability Oftentimes in our community when it comes to anything that may make us look or feel weak, we don't speak it, we don't talk it, we don't show it, we stay away from it. And I think, in the family aspect, is being vulnerable with them and allowing them to understand that you know it sucks that you know certain things are going to be the way that they are. It is in this world. It sucks when we have certain injustices. It sucks when certain things aren't fair be the way it is in this world. It sucks when we have certain injustices. It sucks when certain things aren't fair which is one of the ones my youngest ones use a lot right now is it's not fair, things aren't going to be fair. But if you allow those things that aren't fair and those injustices to stop you, then when are we ever going to change them? They're not. So a lot of our conversations is me being vulnerable If I come home and have a hard day or if there was something that you know.
Speaker 2:A parent may have said something to me that was had some racial undertones and it was this and this. And they want to know. Well, daddy, why did you come home mad? It's like. Well, this person said this to me today and you know what it was not OK. It hurt daddy's feelings and I don't know what their upbringing was and what it was.
Speaker 2:But in this country some people do things just out of spite, because they have prejudice and they don't like us. They judge us, they prejudge us based off of just the way we look, before even getting to know us, and it sucks. But don't ever allow that to make you feel less than and I feel like that's something that I never really had that conversation and I never really had the, you know the. It never was really there to have that open conversation with my dad. I watched my dad work his butt off nine to five, get things done, take care of a household, but we never sat down and had those real conversations about what is it going to be for me as a Black man in this world.
Speaker 2:It was more of what do you need to do as a man? You need to work, you need to provide, take care of your family, but for my children, my girls and my and my boy it's still going to be. We need to talk about how do we navigate this world. We need to talk about all of what was the past, the present, and we talk about the things that we need to do and what we need to stand up for, so that way our past doesn't become our present. So allowing them to have that voice telling them that it's OK to be vulnerable and it's OK to speak up, and knowing when is the right time and the right place to do so and how to navigate this and I'll just be honest this white world. And how do you move through that to be able to have your voice be heard without having to have the stigma of the angry black man or the angry black woman. Those are conversations we have all the time and knowing that it is okay to not be okay.
Speaker 1:I hear you. I love that. The fact that you're having those conversations are so important. One of the things that also comes in this family unit is our relationships with our wives and our folks that we love the most. And you know, in the Black unit, or the Black family unit has been, because it's been so ripped apart and torn apart, and you know, and obviously I'm not making an excuse for it but there's this, like you said, the angry Black woman or the, you know, the woman who is not, you know, is I'm going to be boss because I have to be boss, because I haven't seen any strong black men who can be boss. Right, how do you navigate that and have this nurturing, loving relationship? You know, when we live in a world that we don't see that a lot. I mean, I can just remember all the houses of me growing up that I went into, where mama was in charge.
Speaker 2:So what would you like to say to that? That was a tough one and that didn't come easy and one bit there was a lot of butting heads, especially when you have two people in the household who are goal-driven heads, especially when you have two people in a household who are goal-driven. My wife is very goal-driven. She sets her eye on things that she wants to do when she attains them, and then she has her things that she is very good at and, of course, she doesn't like the things that she's not good at. So do I. I'm very good at certain things, but then I hate the things that I'm not.
Speaker 2:What we have to find out and it's tough, especially within the Black family system is understanding the whole notion of well, if it ain't working, then forget it, we're done, we're just going to walk away. We could be better off without that. And it's tough because I've heard that all my life. Like you know what, you don't have to stick around. If it ain't working, then you know what Don't be miserable. Never, you don't have to stick around If it ain't. If it ain't working, then you know what don't be miserable and it's just like. Well, just because it's not working doesn't mean that it's not miserable Just because you may be solid in this area and I'm not solid in this area and you feel like you're taking more control in this area but then I'm taking control in the other area. We need to recognize that with each other and work with each other so that way it does not become misery and it becomes something that is harmonious and we're working in unison. So I think that's one of the things with me and my wife.
Speaker 2:But it had in the first, I would say, the first six years of our marriage and we going on year nine um, the first, I take that back. The first seven. The last two is when we we finally got it together and it was like look you, a strong Black woman, I'm a strong Black man, I'm a lead, you're going to lead, but we're going to lead separately in different places. Right, when it's OK to also follow and that was one of the things is I'm a leader at heart. You tell me to get something done, I'm going to take it, I'm going to run with it. But we had to learn that in the society when it's putting out that this strong Black woman or strong Black man, I got to do what I got to do to take care of the family. You got to do what you got to do to take care of the family. All that goes out the door. None of that matters.
Speaker 2:At the end of the day, what you bring to the table is what you bring to the table. What I bring to the table is what we bring to the table. But we're going to make it compliment each other, not challenge each other. And I know challenge is good, but not challenge in the sense of what I say or do is right and what you say or do is wrong. It's more of all right if you are more nurturing and loving when we get to a certain point with the kids. You got it, that's you. You got it. Sit back, I'm going to support, I'm going to reiterate everything that you say when it comes to finances and taking care of things and moving us forward. I'm strong with that. I understand it. I've gotten it down. I just need you to follow and support where I need it.
Speaker 2:And I think we butted heads trying to overstep in each other's realms and be that strong Black man, strong Black woman so much that we had to sit back and say you know what? Let's just be strong together. But when it's your turn to lead, you take it. When it's my turn to lead, I'll take it and we're going to support each other. And that is one of the things, because I mean, you hit the nail on the head. It is tough with coming from history in this country where a black man has been pulled from this family. He has another family over there, another family over here, and it creates that stigma of, well, there's no black man in the household there and mama has to run the show. I don't know if everyone has looked around, but that has changed a lot in this country in the last hundreds of years, changed a lot in this country in the last hundreds of years. There's a lot of Black men and as an educator I've seen the most amount in the 14 years I've been in education.
Speaker 2:I have never seen this amount of Black men who show up to meetings for their Black daughters and sons, but knowing that they are also in the household, they're helping out, they're doing everything that the world says that we can't do, and that, too, a Black woman and a Black man can coexist in a household and still be both strong leaders.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, oh man, and I love where you said in order to be a good leader, you have to be able to follow, and I don't know of any leaders that are the greatest leaders in the world that weren't also incredible followers when they needed to be. Let's pivot again to one of the other taboo subjects that we as Black men and families have, and that's finances and that's money you know, handling money and what goes into money.
Speaker 1:And we, we don't know, we don't know, and then we probably try to pretend like we know, as if we're all going there that we have no issues.
Speaker 1:You know it could creep up on us. You know and you know, and I've heard and I know you're a math teacher that you know we learn math backwards here in this country, Like if you, if you have a stack of, you know, let's say you have, you know, 500s and 320s and 210s and one, five, you know, you count you know, when you're counting money, you go okay, 200. So 100, 200, 300, 220, 233, 243, you know 55, 56, 57.
Speaker 2:But when?
Speaker 1:we learn math, we go okay, one, two, three plus a five, that's eight, that's another five, that's 13. And we really just we get to the point where we don't believe we understand math good enough. And then somehow we think that if we don't understand math really good enough, that we can't deal with our money and our finances. And so you know, there's, you know, only so much money in the world, but there's always money being made, there's always being money that's being created. Just tell our fellow government we get a stimulus check of money that doesn't exist. So we're going to figure out a way to barter stuff.
Speaker 1:Maybe some lessons that we could learn about money or about finances that would serve us well, you know, as we move forward, maybe some things you know I'll just say just for me, like when I went to college, I didn't know about a credit card. You know I didn't know how credit cards work. You know I went they. You know they were sitting with tables out in front and Sears said you can have a credit card. And I went and got myself a credit card and I went to Sears and my dorm room looked really good, and then my $200 or $300, whatever it was, and then the bill came the next month and they're like you have to pay. I'm like, but I didn't graduate, I'm not done yet.
Speaker 1:It was at school and it's like you pay everything after you graduate. It was at school and it's like you pay everything after you graduate. They're like no, you got to pay this month. I don't have a job. You know, you better figure out a way to do it and that whole thing with credit, and you know some of the things that you would love. You know that you could impart, that maybe you learned or that could be helpful when it comes to money.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing that I've learned in my 35 years on this earth is that at the end of the day, it goes back to excuses. Just because I didn't know it doesn't mean that I cannot learn it Right. I'll give you. Go back to a story, and Mercedes can attest to this too. She, she, she was a part of this. We, we were in Nevada thinking that we're going to stay there, we're going to live. I go to the teacher's conference. They talk to me. It's like oh yeah, your stuff looks good, your credit looks okay. Come to the office, we're going to run some numbers and possibly see if we can get you guys into a mortgage to buy a home. We go through, we submit everything for the guy to come out and tell us like yeah, there's no way we can get you into a house.
Speaker 2:And we're sitting there like, but it checks off all the boxes and he's like, yeah, no, it's just it's not going to work out with that income and this, that and this. So I'm pissed off. And then they're going back looking at credit history, talking about this credit card, this card and this stuff, and I'm like I'm sitting there thinking like I wouldn't have done that if someone would have told me I wouldn't have done that had I known. And for the longest time I put it off, like I don't care, I don't want to buy a house, no more. I don't want to go through this process, no more. That was hurtful. It was the worst feeling ever to sit there and be denied and told, yeah, there's no way we can help you. I sat in that and then something was just like you know what? No, you've been told no on so many other things. Why is it any different on finances?
Speaker 2:So I picked up books, I started calling people, I started asking people, I started acquiring knowledge. So my biggest thing with finances is if you want to know there we live in a digital age to where information is at your fingertips. To where information is at your fingertips. I tell my students this with everything, even when we're in the classroom. If Mr Hutchins didn't teach us the way that you understand, go on YouTube and find out a way that can teach it to you. As long as you get the answer correct, I'm fine with that. We are living in a age where information is at our disposal or at wherever. Whatever we want we could have it. Get on there, whether that be TikTok, youtube, instagram. You get on there and go listen to some podcasts about finances. Go read a Dave Ramsey book. Go read Rich Dad, poor Dad, go all of these things. And I say this because these are things that I did learning about snowballing to be able to get rid of debt. This wasn't something that I just woke up and was like oh man, that was great. You know what? I'm going to start snowballing today. No, I went and acquired the knowledge because, at the end of the day, I never wanted to feel that way again and I will never be allowed to. So we fast forward to.
Speaker 2:We purchased our first home in Victorville. That was a struggle trying to get everything together. We fixed our credit, making sure we did it. We finally get into the house. It was a struggle, oh my gosh. It was to the point where we wanted to quit every step of the way trying to get into this house. But we finally get in there. We sell that house, we moved down here this house.
Speaker 2:Buying the house that we're in now was the smoothest, easiest process ever. Why? Because we researched, we went through our resources, we checked for different places, we acquired the knowledge as we knew what we wanted and where we wanted to get it from, and we didn't take no for an answer. It was you know what. That didn't work. But then we also have this in our back pocket. Let's try this. If this interest rate is not going to work, we're going to go look at these housing that are housing developments that are giving a certain interest rate right now If you buy through their lender.
Speaker 2:So we looked at different things but we didn't just say, oh well, no one ever taught me, and I'll be honest with John. First, I want to say that I was. I was pissed off knowing that my dad is the one that took care of the finances and he still owns his home. I was mad at him for so long, for so many years, cause I'm pissed off Like man, you went through this. Why do I not know that? Why would you do that? Why would you not tell me that, man, like, if you were a mechanic, I should know how to work on the car, a house, I should know how to acquire a house.
Speaker 2:But it's not always that easy and we sometimes got to step out of you know what. Just because we did not get the information when we feel like we should have had it doesn't mean it's too late to get it. And that's where I've always thought with my finances. I know that I never want to be broke. So I know that I have the goal of saving and living within my means. I don't have to live for the Joneses to think that I'm rich. I don't care what the Joneses think. I know that internally I'm happy with my finances and with my family, so we good to go.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, one of the things that I hear a lot, you know, as I've been doing this thing is you hear people who say that money is not important. Money is something that I don't really have to think about, I don't need, and what I realized is, you know, and I kind of understood this before is you know most people spend 40, 50, 60 hours a week trying to acquire it so that they could have stuff. It's kind of to me, it's kind of up there with oxygen, you know, and so, as you breathe, that's how important money is. Now it's what you do with it that makes the big difference, and your ability to give and your ability to help others out, and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:But at the same time.
Speaker 1:To start with the premises that money is not important is just to me silly. It's this thing that, no, if it's not important and you don't care about it, then why are you going to work? Why are you doing things? Because it is important and I need to deal with it. And if you can come from that premise, then you can start thinking okay, now, what's the best use of the money that I make and how am I going to fit in?
Speaker 1:And in our community we seem to be very big consumers where we don't think about saving, we don't think about what the future looks like. And I'm not saying you need to save a ton of money for retirement either. I have a whole bunch of other viewpoints on that. But at the same time you got to have something. There's got to be like an emergency fund. Right, if something happens and your tire blows out. Right, if something happens and your tire blows out, you should be able to go to the tire store and get a tire. You know to be able to do that and so you know, as those lessons come in, how do you think you know as an educator, it's not something that we talk a lot about in schools. We expect families to do that.
Speaker 1:So where are some of the places or resources? You know you talked about the internet and books. Are there any other places or resources that you would suggest that people at least start out with when they want to, because it's embarrassing when you don't know. You know, I don't want to talk about it because I don't want to tell everybody that I, you know I, don't have any money for gas, yeah, so. So so how? How do we get past that? Have any money for gas? So how?
Speaker 1:do we get past that shame, I guess because shame is one of the worst emotions that says I don't have what I think I should have or I wasted, and a lot of it is lack of education, lack of knowledge. But how do we say to ourselves I'm okay there, I need to get out of here and the only way I'm going to do it is with help. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I think it goes back to what you said earlier in our discussion of I don't know what I don't know, like understanding that if I don't know what I don't know, yes, shame comes with it, but am I vulnerable enough to seek the help? And I think that it goes back to that again with vulnerability. If I can sit here and tell you and I've been in those times in my youth where it's like I don't have a dime to my name, I just moved here, I don't have no money, I'm trying to find a job I may have to call a frat, brother or a friend, somebody hey man, can you come pick me up or whatnot. But the thing is is that and I'll share this story I had a guy who was just putting in our water system this past weekend and he was telling me we were him and I were talking about God a little bit and getting into our faith, and one of the things he said to me he's like man, you know what, it's just something about you that I want to share this story and I'm like man share. I'm sitting here, let's talk.
Speaker 2:He stops putting in the water system and says, hey, man, I was at rock bottom one time in my life and I'm sitting there like I can't tell nobody. I don't want anyone to know. This is all on me. I lost everything. I messed up, he's like. So I'm sitting there wallowing away. Messed up, he's like. So I'm sitting there, you know, wallowing away. I went and spent my last $10 on a bottle. I'm drinking, he's like. But then something told me like, hey, man, pick up the phone and call. Call your friend and just tell him how you feeling. He's like. So he called him while he's sitting in the park drinking, he's crying and his friend tells him hey, man, shut all that up and suck up those tears. And he's like. So he's like. I'm sitting there like man. Why is my friend?
Speaker 2:like like like you're not having a heart for me. He said, nah, man, like cry if you need to, but you know when you done with them tears. Um, I got a buddy who was looking for somebody to uh, come work for this construction company and I thought about you after our conversation two weeks ago. So then he said, all right, man, he got off the phone, threw the bottle away, went home, started working for that dude. The next week got picked up by a guy who was also working for that dude and then it just started rolling to where he got in this job and now he's doing much better. But the thing is is that if we don't say something about it, if you're not willing to speak on it or even ask for the help, how do you get anywhere? I can't help myself if I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:With finances, you have to. It's the same thing Like if I, if I even walk past someone that is speaking about something that I'm like hold up, I didn't know that was possible. One of the ones I just walked past our counselor talking to another one of our APs about her mom's house and putting it into a living trust and how that helps with something. I can't remember specifically, but it was something about not having to pay a capital gains tax. So I stopped and was like, hold up, let me rewind, run that back for me one more time. What exactly should her mom be doing? And he's like oh yeah, come here, man. Let me tell you about this too, because you know you may have a family member that owns something that you may get. Or you know, let's say, your dad. Something happens, he wants to give you the house in Ontario. We just start going with it.
Speaker 2:So I didn't know. I heard, I wanted to know, even though if it wasn't something that pertains to my life right now, I still ask because I need to know about that and if we want to be financially fit, you got to ask the questions. We can't just sit back and think that you know what because I have a high paying job, I'm going to be out of debt. Studies show that the more you make, the more debt you possibly may get into. But if you don't, go talk to the people who are going to tell you how to manage that money, have that nest egg, possibly when you get to a point to invest, because not everyone can invest. But if you can invest that way, then start diversifying and building your wealth. We're just going to be sitting here running in circles and being in this vicious cycle of being broke.
Speaker 1:I love it, I love it, I love it. If they have any other questions of trust, I do trust. I love it, I love it, I love it. If they have any other questions of trust, I do trust.
Speaker 2:So yeah, lots of trust.
Speaker 1:No, I do, I do living trust. That's part of the business that I did. But you know I can't. We were at an hour and so I want to be at the opportunity to just say any closing thoughts or any closing comments that you would like to make. You know, for this group, and you know, definitely we'll have you back again. And you know as we move, and you know I'm excited about the next year bringing in wives and that kind of stuff and talking about the family unit. But we got to get you know the 100 men in first this year. So what are some closing thoughts that you may have?
Speaker 2:Man, please keep doing this. This is awesome. I think this is something that needs to be shared. I will post it on my social media so that way this can get out there. I don't care if anyone hears my story. I want them to understand that there is a lot of us that are doing things outside of what modern media says that we do outside of what modern media says that we do.
Speaker 1:We don't all have to be entertainers, we don't have to be athletes. We can have successful, plentiful lives, enjoyable lives, lives that have laid legacies, without having to be a superstar to be able to do it.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I think the last thing that I'll say is the journey to freedom. It's all in the name. At the end of the day, freedom can fit into so many different facets of life Journey to relationship freedom, journey to financial freedom, educational freedom. Freedom is having the opportunity to move about something the way that you feel you should, and that's the same thing that our ancestors were fighting for for us. So the fact that you're doing this that way, people like myself can share our stories and hopefully inspire someone or move someone in a better light. I think this is awesome and I appreciate the time and the opportunity to be able to share my thoughts, my experiences and my life with whoever decides to view it.
Speaker 1:James, we so appreciate it. And you know, like I want to say at the end of every single show is wherever you're at in life, this is something you can do. You know. This is this isn't something where you can improve your life. You can improve your existence. You can be better today than you were yesterday. You can be better tomorrow than you were today, and that continues to happen if you put yourself into it and you deserve this too.
Speaker 1:This is, you know, whatever's happened in the past, whatever's happened for your culture in the past, this is not a stopping point, this isn't a resting point. We all have this journey to be able to move forward. And then the last part I would say is this make sure that that you, you get around associations. We talked about that a lot today. Make sure there are people. If you just need to contact us, we will find. I will find somebody and people that can be around you, that can help you to to just grow, and so that this journey is different for our kids. And then we think about our kids' kids and the legacies that we leave. And so, again, thank you for being on the show. I appreciate it. I can't wait for us to have another episode of the Journey to Freedom podcast and, james, again thank you for being part of it and we look forward to talking to all of you guys later. Have a wonderful, incredible, awesome day.
Speaker 2:Thank you guys. Later have a wonderful, incredible, awesome day. Thank you.