The Q&A Files
The Q&A Files drops A Wellness Explosion
💥 BOOM! Attention Wellness Warriors. The game changer you have been waiting for is finally here. Say hello to “The Q&A Files,” where wellness meets revolution and your questions lead to new discoveries. Spearheaded by Trisha Jamison, your host, a Board Certified Functional Nutritionist. Cohost Dr. Jeff Jamison, a Board Certified Family Physician, and featured guest, Tony Overbay, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. This podcast blends three diverse perspectives to tackle your questions on health, nutrition, medicine, mental wellness, and relationships. Dive into a world of expert insights and actionable advice, all sparked by your curiosity. Tune in, ignite your wellness journey, and join the Wellness Warrior community.
The Q&A Files
28. Family Bonds, Narcissism, and Breaking Free from Toxic Roles
Ever wondered how to truly understand and navigate the emotional complexities in relationships? Join us for an insightful journey as Tony shares the joy of welcoming his grandson, Redding, and Trisha reflects on her special moments with her daughter and grandkids. These heartwarming stories set the stage for a deep dive into emotional health and the intricacies of familial bonds. You won't want to miss Dr. Jeff's personal insights as he tackles Becky's heartfelt question about dealing with a potentially narcissistic spouse, offering strategies and wisdom that stem from real-life experiences.
Growing up in an alcoholic household leaves lasting imprints, and this episode uncovers how those early coping mechanisms can shape adult relationships. We discuss the roles of scapegoats, the burden of enabling behaviors, and the necessity of setting boundaries. From recognizing gaslighting to understanding the fine line between boundaries and ultimatums, we provide practical advice for managing relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic individuals. Empower yourself with our strategies that emphasize self-care and personal growth.
Self-regulation and self-soothing are critical tools for maintaining healthy interactions, and we explore their importance, along with other essential strategies such as written communication and involving third parties when needed. By recognizing and disrupting habitual patterns, you can shift from merely surviving to thriving in your relationships. Hear personal anecdotes that showcase the courage it takes to embrace self-improvement and differentiation. A touching message from an adult daughter beautifully illustrates the ripple effects of emotional maturity and ongoing personal work. Tune in for an episode filled with practical wisdom and heartfelt moments that aim to transform your relationship dynamics for the better.
Questions: Email us at trishajamisoncoaching@gmail.com!
Hello and welcome to the Q&A file, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, tricia Jamieson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner, ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries. Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention, to nutrition, exercise, mental health and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you. Welcome back to another episode of the Q&A Files. I'm Tricia Jamieson, your host. Alongside my wonderful co-hosts, I have Dr Jeff and Tony Overbay.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody.
Speaker 1:Hi, we are here to delve into your questions and provide insightful, compassionate advice. But before we dive into today's question, let's take a moment to celebrate. So, jeff and Tony, what are you celebrating today, tony?
Speaker 2:every time. When am I going to remember One time? I know it's coming. I know it's coming. What is it about my brain that refuses to acknowledge or remember the celebration? What does that say? Let me lay down on my couch.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about this, yeah get over there. Okay, let's talk about this Well.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you what. I had a very long conversation with my daughter, capri, today, and I'm just grateful for my daughters and I'm just grateful to be a dad of daughters and sons too, but'm my, my daughters are extremely um, positive towards me most of the time and it's and it's um it's a wonderful feeling to have a daughter who loves you. So my a shout out to my daughter, capri today oh, cool.
Speaker 1:Okay, do you want me to go, tony? Do you need more time? No, I can do one.
Speaker 2:I can. I will tell you I'm week five or six now being a grandpa and just last night it was so fun to just a little baby red his name's Redding and we're we're giving a little bath and he's so adorable and cute and he's six weeks, so he's starting to do some little funny faces and stuff like that. And then and then I don't know, it was so fascinating.
Speaker 2:I think so I'll take it though, push on his tummy if it works. But he's he's, he's a little bit upset. Then, after the bath, where my daughter's changed his diaper, and then she just says, do this wrinkly thing that makes noise, you know, and I do it, and of course it just calms him down. And I just thought, man, I wish it was that easy for everybody. You know, if we're, if we're getting upset or bent, somebody just has to like make something crinkle in front of me, and then I'm just fixated by it the whole time, cause that guy was locked in for like 10 minutes and I was just fascinated by it.
Speaker 3:So I'm loving that. I'm excited, redding, redding.
Speaker 1:Red. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, baby.
Speaker 2:Red yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great. Is he going to be a?
Speaker 2:redhead no, he's not. Yeah, which I know he's going to deal with that you know, I think that's a great name, strong name. That's right.
Speaker 1:Well, my celebration is I just got back from visiting my daughter and her family for grandkids that used to be in Spokane and then they moved away Very rude, I might add, because they didn't ask me if that was okay, but we had a great time. I went over with my mom, and then Jeff came over with Brayden and they spent a day, and then Brayden and I got to stay a couple extra days, and so we just had so much fun with them, and it's just made me realize how much I miss my grandkids all of them. I miss all of them, the ones in Utah as well, and in a couple of weeks I get to see them. So that will be fantastic, wonderful. That is my, those are my celebrations, and thank you for sharing yours as well. Both of you. All right, so this question is from Becky, so this is excellent.
Speaker 1:Yes, becky, becky, and Becky writes in. I am in a very difficult relationship. I feel my husband may be a narcissist or very emotionally immature. If he does not like someone, he talks poorly about them and tells me to stop hanging out with them. He gaslights me, manipulates me and makes me feel like I'm absolutely crazy. Sometimes I actually wonder if I am crazy. I try to stand up for myself, but I find myself second-guessing everything. The craziest part is that I stick up for him to my family and friends. I think I don't want to see things differently because I will feel like a failure. I need serious help. We have been married for 21 years and have three children, teenagers and below.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that a narcissist is a small percentage of the population, so maybe he is just very emotionally mature. What advice can you give someone in the situation? And Becky is actually not my real name, so I appreciate that. So first of all, becky, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story with us, and it's clear you're definitely in a very challenging situation and you're trying to acknowledge the dynamics in a relationship and it's tough. This is significant. But you also are taking the first relationship and it's tough. This is significant, but you also are taking the first step, you're reaching out, and I think that that's fantastic. So let's take a moment and navigate the situation. So, gentlemen, what are some of your thoughts that you may have?
Speaker 3:Well for me, first of all, it sounds like me a few years ago. So I'm you know, so I'm you know, totally a vulnerable spot here for me. But man, I can sure relate to it that, I'm sure I did a lot of those things and it makes me sad that that's where I was. But it makes me grateful and I guess here's another celebration is that I feel like I've made some improvement in those directions so that our relationship is so much better than ever. I just I can't be more grateful for that.
Speaker 1:Well, you never, ever. If you didn't like someone, did you talk poorly about them or not allow me to hang out with them? I mean you. There was some emotional immaturity there for sure, probably on both ends of you know, both of us, but that that was not one of the things that we dealt with, so I appreciate that for sure. So, tony, what are some thoughts that you may?
Speaker 2:have.
Speaker 2:I do I really do and I was flipping through some notes. I did a couple of episodes recently, um one on the waking up to narcissism podcast, about this reflected sense of self, or this mirrored self, and I think that's a fascinating one, because when you look at the person, so both when I like to say that we're all emotionally immature until we're not it's like we're seeing ourselves in our relationships. It's like they're holding up a big mirror to see who we think that we are. And the problem is the person in Becky's situation. It's a good thing. Actually, that problem is that she's now starting to recognize that she doesn't really like who she sees in that mirror, or she thinks, okay, this isn't actually who I think I am, so she wants to change it. And then the there's another version of that, the emotionally mature that then they are not, they don't like who they see in the mirror, but they're unwilling to then take ownership of it. So then it must be. You know they need a new mirror. So it's going to. The rules are going to change every time, and so what I think is so, if I can kind of go back in the way back machine for a minute when I started that podcast, it had.
Speaker 2:I had been working on it for almost a year because it was a spinoff of the virtual couch podcast. Whenever I would talk about narcissism I would see the download numbers go up. It wasn't that it was just a numbers thing, but I was starting to recognize, like what I love, dr Jeff talking about my own narcissistic traits and tendencies, or my own emotional immaturity. So I I start this podcast. But the reason that, uh, that I wanted to determine or define emotional immaturity so fast is because somebody like I think Becky it's. You know, if you start reading about narcissism, it just says run, don't finish the paragraph that you're reading and go.
Speaker 2:But then nobody, no one in that situation knows, they don't know. They're just now learning about the concepts around narcissism. They're going to they're going to first, naturally, kind of make it more about them, like I can fix this, I can show up different, I can say the right thing. I can say the right thing I can cause, I can give this person the aha moment, because if they can fix it, you know, if they can take ownership of it, then they feel like they can fix it. But sometimes they can do everything in the world and it doesn't. It doesn't mean they can fix it, because it's not necessarily them problem. Sure they. Well, that's one of the reasons why.
Speaker 3:I really like the way you named your podcast, the waking up to narcissism thing, because you don't just you know, oh, you get this information. It's like, oh well, now I get it Right. No, people that have this narcissistic tendencies or actually true narcissistic personality disorder, the people around them are the ones who actually figure it out, yeah right, and the person who has narcissistic personality disorder? They never really get it.
Speaker 1:And they think everyone around them is the crazy people.
Speaker 3:Right and they do their very best to make sure that everybody else feels that and that. Oh man, I can't believe how stupid you are. Or they have all kinds of ways to make the other person feel terrible and it takes a really long time. And it seems like, from what I've seen, that the children in the relationship of a narcissist and a non-narcissist or codependent. It takes them a really long time the codependent person to figure it out and they're just so used to being beat up and not knowing what to do or which ends up, that they just, and once they finally figure it out, they go oh my gosh. It's like this waking up experience and that's why I love the name that you have for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I appreciate that. And it's interesting when you put it that way, because then, once they figure it out, then they're. I call them the pathologically kind. Put it that way Cause then, once they figure it out, then they're, they're. You know, I call them the pathologically kind. So what's the kind person going to do? Oh my gosh, now that I understand, we can talk about this and now we can move forward.
Speaker 2:I, he will understand or she will understand, but that is not the way it works, and so that's that's the unfortunate part, because it still makes sense that once you figure something out that you want to share it with this partner that you're in a relationship with, with the hopes that then okay, now they'll, they'll understand, now they'll get it and now we can work on it, which, unfortunately, you know, when they're not doing the work and to them it just sounds again like something that you're saying that their job is to knock down or take the one up position.
Speaker 2:So at some point, you know where Becky's at, it becomes a her thing, and I mean that in a positive way, where recognizing that, okay, I have to know who I am, I have to develop my own sense of self and know that I don't need him to understand. I'm now understanding, and what's wild is it does start to shift the dynamic, and I think that's the part where the codependent is so used to this enmeshment that then they almost feel like they're doing something wrong if they're not trying to explain work on caretake, and so that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:And I think the narcissistic person in that relationship becomes threatened, feels threatened, and they heighten their-. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Push more buttons.
Speaker 3:They push more buttons. Yes, they make you feel worse and they try and tamp down this awakening.
Speaker 1:Well, one thing that I appreciate is her comment about how she would stand up for him to her family and friends, and that's losing her sense of self because it's losing her reality, and I just I appreciate where she's coming from there for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I uh here, here's my. Here comes the, here comes my vulnerability. I heard a quote from Renee Brown a couple of days ago, so good that I put it on this little page that I have.
Speaker 2:She's great. But here's my, here's, my confession is that I liked it so much that I put it on this one where I want to. I want to create my own version of this quote, you know. And so then that then I realized, oh no, I just need to give her credit for this quote because it's so good.
Speaker 2:She says don't walk through the world looking for evidence that you don't belong or you're not enough, because you'll always find it. Our worth and our belonging are not negotiated with other people. We carry this inside of our heart. She says I know who I am and I'm clear about that, and that's not to be negotiated. And here's the thing I think applies to emotional, immature, narcissistic relationships. She said, because then I may fit in for you, but then I no longer belong to myself and that's a betrayal that I'm no longer willing to do. And I like that concept of self-betrayal. Trish, you reminded me of that when you were talking about what you just said. I'm not sure you know there's no reciprocation, there's no validation, there's no connection from that, and so then you know she's like basically betraying her own sense of self, whether she understands that or not and that that I think that can be really difficult.
Speaker 1:What I think a lot of women don't and I. And I really liked the last part when she said if she starts to recognize or acknowledge his, his behaviors, then she feels like the failure.
Speaker 2:So she's still putting responsibility on herself, and that's again right, right his behaviors that are are poor.
Speaker 3:So I just I think that's and I think that's so characteristic of a person that's got a difficulty with chronic kindness or that enmeshment is that they are so willing to take the blame for, or the responsibility of, the downfall or the shortcomings of their partner and not allowing them to have their own accountability, and that's something I've really struggled with right there.
Speaker 1:I always put the blame on me If anything goes awry started when I was young We've talked about this before. My dad was an alcoholic and so it was an easy thing to be the scapegoat, take the blame, and unfortunately that led into later years when I was married and still married. But I learned those techniques early, early on, and they worked for me because they allowed me to not be, or not have other people be, uncomfortable. It was okay if I was uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know I think about that often.
Speaker 2:Tricia that, yeah, that we're. You know, sit in a like sit in a church meeting or something Somebody asked for a volunteer. And when you're aware of this concept, it's fascinating, because then it's like who can, who can not sit, with the discomfort? You know that's somebody that will eventually say, okay, fine, I'll do it, and then everybody else is relieved. And then you right, or when your kid is all of a sudden freaking out about I, you know my homework's due and whatever, then we get to tell ourselves we're a good parent. If then we come in and cause that makes me super uncomfortable. So how do I alleviate my discomfort? Then I go, I go do it for them, which I've done a million times, you know. Then I get to tell myself I'm dad of the year, but also I'm training, you know, my kids to say, okay, if I don't do something or I don't prepare, then I can lose my, my crap, and then somebody will come rescue me from it and then I'll feel better and then they'll even tell themselves that they're awesome.
Speaker 1:So it's a win-win you know Exactly, you know and you don't. It's not like something you sit down and you think about.
Speaker 2:No, no, not at all.
Speaker 1:Things that are just happening and they're just so natural, even though you hate it.
Speaker 2:They really are.
Speaker 1:They really are, it's still terrible, but it's still happening around you. You don't know how to change it. So this is such a great question, becky, because you know, I feel your pain and I think that a lot of women can resonate with this.
Speaker 2:And men too. I mean not just women.
Speaker 1:Men have a lot of issues that they have to deal with with women controlling, deal with with women controlling manipulative women out there and what Jeff was saying is what I like.
Speaker 2:What he was saying also is, like the part where they're going to push more buttons is that we do get used to. Even in a healthy family system, we're used to the roles that everybody plays. You know, I will alleviate your anxiety, I will rescue you in the time of need, and then when somebody finally says, okay, I'm no longer willing to play that role, I need to stand up for myself. It's not like everybody else goes, yay, you know. Go, mom, they're like what, what are you doing? And they, they go bigger, yeah, and then they're like, and, and that will eventually.
Speaker 2:It's uncomfortable, and then the person that's just now trying, like in becky's even situation, trying to wake up to their own, their, their situation, so to speak and the people around them are going to go bigger in whatever they're doing to get her back into that familiar role, because if not, then they're going to have to do something. That's why the emotionally immature narcissist has to get bigger. That's where the gaslighting gets worse, because they need you back into that role, that one down position, to make themselves feel better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that and that's exactly right. I think that and that discomfort for a narcissist or a person who has narcissistic tendencies they hate that discomfort. I know that when I felt that way, I just I hate that discomfort and you're willing to do whatever you can to offload it. And if you can, and if you've got somebody that's your partner, that is so willing and ready to take the blame.
Speaker 3:it's like, oh great, I'm just going to offload it right now. Here you go and they're just fine until they're not. And then it's really uncomfortable for everybody when things start to go awry, which is where it should have been a long time ago. And I just appreciate, and, becky, if you can take a moment and when you recognize this happening to you, if you'll take a pause. Take a Tony Overbay pause, sit in your own discomfort and go. You know what? I don't like this discomfort and I'm not going to put up with it anymore. And that doesn't mean you have to jump in front of the bus on this narcissistic person, but set a personal boundary so that you say I'm not going to allow that to harm me anymore, and so you just put your own shield up until you have an opportunity or it's the proper time to say something to that person that might be more impactful and stand up for yourself more.
Speaker 2:Can I address that? And this is really good that you just said that, because this is one of my new fixations, fascinations. So in my rules of narcissism, interacting with a narcissist or emotionally mature, I got my raise your baseline self-care. Get your phd in gaslighting so you understand like, okay, I'm not crazy. Get out of unproductive conversations. Set healthy boundaries. Know that a boundary is a challenge to a narcissist. And I do a whole thing on boundary versus ultimatum. The ultimatum, you can't do that boundary. If you do that then I will leave. But that last one is you'll never give them the aha moment or the epiphany. So I felt like for a number of years that then it was like why would I ever say anything to the narcissist? Cause it's basically providing us a tax surface. You know, even if I think I'm coming from a good place, they're going to now then take that and now you know, oh, really, that's how you feel. Or I can't believe that, or you know.
Speaker 1:And and they know what to do with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the more that I'm, I'm just loving the concepts around being differentiated, where everything is ultimately a me thing. And when I learned that I am okay and I don't need this person to understand cause that is that does fall in that validation bucket. I need them to understand that this is what they're doing, or this is how I feel. I need to know, this is how I feel. And so then now, if I choose to express myself, I'm not trying to give them the aha moment of the epiphany. I'm saying it because it's the right thing to say, and some of the clients I've been working with lately it is a pretty different vibe. We have to spend some time making sure that you're not going to say, hey, I would really appreciate if you would do this. You know again, we're not talking even on boundary. If you do this, you know again, we're not talking to even a boundary. If you do this, I'll do, you know, then I will leave, but it's like I need you to stop talking bad to the kids or something like that, like the boundary would be if you talk bad to the kids, then we're going to leave, but at some point when that person's like, I know, I'm okay.
Speaker 2:I know this is not okay for the relationship and I know that I need to be, you know, from a place of integrity. I need to express that this is not okay, like I want my kids to see that. You know that this is kind of that vibe and that's like something I'm looking at now, because you're not doing it, because even you're not looking for validation, reciprocation, you're not even looking for them to go. I get it, but it's like I'm coming from a place of integrity. It is right for me to to stand up for my kids, you know that kind of thing, and it's almost like I don't even care what they say. That sounds negative, but you know, if you're in that position, though, then it's like this is what I'm saying, because this is the right thing to say and I and I haven't said the right thing because I played small, so now I'm going to say the right thing, and it's a fairly new thing I've been looking at.
Speaker 1:Just like it, and it takes time to recognize what that right thing is yes, so it's not something that all of a sudden, you just have this switch that gets flipped on. It's like, oh okay, I know what the right thing is. This takes time and it's a trajectory that is uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:So uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:So you know it feels wrong. It feels like you're swarming in this muck and you just don't even know how to get out of it and you want to go back to the old behaviors because it feels safe. Yes, it's more destructive. So, much, I totally get that.
Speaker 2:Well, and I like what you're saying there, cause that's when I see that and here's where I like the work of getting to work with this population is I will tell the person that position will just go gender stereotyped.
Speaker 2:You know, more more men are narcissistic than women, so the women I'm working with, then it's the okay. You might feel like this is what you're ready to say or do, but if you don't do it, it's okay. Come back and let's talk about what that felt like, cause a lot of times we're going to get that courage up in a moment and then when we get into that environment, whether it's the body that keeps the score or whether it's like right, yeah, and that's and that's why I like what you're saying is it takes a long time to figure that out, cause then people will immediately go what's wrong with me? See, I I'm not as strong as I thought I was, and it's like, oh, you're on a path, kind of like what Jeff was saying. Is that when like this Becky, the fact that she's starting to recognize it pause a little bit and you know, even if you go in there with you, but take that pause and go Ooh, check that out.
Speaker 1:A lot of times it's the kids, because it's like you your focus are your children and if you know you start to change your narrative with your husband, they will come back and react poorly to the kids and that is something so well said.
Speaker 2:I have so well said.
Speaker 1:I really struggled with yes, yeah, and that's I never.
Speaker 3:Did with yes, yeah, and that's I never did that.
Speaker 1:What are you?
Speaker 2:talking about Not anymore, okay, but I think we all do that. I mean, that's like that's where this well, maybe I say I feel that one, I feel the pains of that one too, cause that emotional immaturity is I, I, you know, it's like it's so immature, but to triangulate where that's a lot of times, where, you know, I remember one of the things waking up to my own emotional immaturity was not wanting to go say, hey guys, mom's kind of having a rough day. You know, if I'm upset with mom, because then it's like you know, and and that's so, it's so immature. And I, I notice that that's one of those when I'm working with the, the more emotionally immature or like, let's say, the guys where that's one where I love the awareness around wanting to say something like that, you know, to them say, hey guys, don't, don't bug mom right now, and it's almost like the guy wanting validation, so that the kids like, oh yeah, yeah, mom does seem like she's pretty moody right now, you know, versus yeah.
Speaker 3:Let me let me take two minutes or a second to just mention that there are lots of men out there who are emotionally immature and have these narcissistic tendencies that sometimes it may be really important for them to understand what's happening. And so they need to hear this. So I think there's a small fraction of men that are narcissistic, have narcissistic personality disorder and they really aren't going to be changeable, or? They have a very difficult. They're going to have to have a two by four to the forehead to have any change happen at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then a brick and a boulder and shit.
Speaker 3:And get squashed some way or another. Okay, so there's those that are not going to make changes, but I think that there's a lot of others that if they only really knew what they were doing, that that does help them to know. But you can't expect change all at once. But to make a small thing that's going on, a situation that happens, say you know, I don't really like the way you handled that with your son, or I don't like the way that this went today with son, or I don't like the way that this went today with me, or whatever. Say something to stand up for yourself, even if it's small, and if you get nothing but backlash from it. It's not time to start jumping down that rabbit hole yet. But I think that people we deserve men deserve that are having this problem, and women too, fit out of the doubt.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, it is a process let me, can I, and I appreciate this, that's where I want to. I'm gonna, I'm gonna lovingly somewhat, yeah, but that because okay, go, okay, right, yeah, yeah, that's what I like. Here's my tell me this to be like I mean but what do I know? I'm just the expert with the podcast and the testifying in court cases. But I I mean, no, I'm totally kidding.
Speaker 3:That was I want to say.
Speaker 2:There's my immaturity, because you, you're so right. And I've thought about this a lot because there's I've got a couple of thoughts. One is that I do think it's difficult sometimes, often, for the guy to hear it from the, his spouse Cause I think there's that, that deepated fear of abandonment or rejection, that then if she's saying that, I think that's where that natural gaslighting comes from, because it's like no, no, no, even it wasn't, I didn't do that, or I didn't say that, or no, you're right, or I play small or I go victim. So she'll tell me it's okay. But so then how does one address it? And then I appreciate the way you just you know, when you're saying something small and you were expressing it in a calm way. So then I say, well, there's the challenge, Because when you look at those concepts of differentiation, it's one of the points of being differentiated.
Speaker 2:Is this calm, calm mind, what is it? Calm heart? And this is the one I always get confused. So let me just say this one for real. But it's about self-validation, self-soothing and not needing somebody else to calm your anxiety. They call it calm heart, quiet mind. I believe Quiet mind, calm heart, the ability to self-regulate and self-soothe your anxiety without expecting somebody else to do that for you.
Speaker 2:So what I find is too often when the when, when the, let's say, the wife in a scenario, does feel like this is something I need to say, they, they are already kind of got that amygdala hijack working, and so then it's like they don't say it calm, and I think that when the guy senses that frustration, then he's like going into his mode of like. I need to, I need to calm her down, but I'm going to do it in an unhealthy way. I'm either going to get loud or big, or I'm going to play small or so I don't know if he's listening in that moment. So if she can say it calm, that's ideal.
Speaker 2:He does need to hear it, and so and this is, like you know, spitballing this but there's a part of me that has noticed that some women have had more success with that later, in an email and a text and a whatever, and I know that our brains want to say well, I don't want to do that over text, that you know it can be misconstrued, but but then if I've got a woman working on the process of being able to express herself because it's the right thing to say, and but her body keeps the score and she's going in there to try to express something and her own central nervous system is saying are you crazy? Like this never works, you know, then there's just a lot of variables at play. But but, Jeff, I like what you're saying, Cause it's like at some point the people that I've worked with that eventually wake up to their own emotional immaturity. They had to hear it somewhere, you know that's the point I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I know you were but it's like yeah, yeah, it's so good because it's like there's yeah.
Speaker 1:So I in our situation it was not me that shared Well, we didn't even know what we didn't know. And then, when, once, especially, jeff started to learn more about narcissism and what that even meant and that's when he started to make significant changes he's like I do not want to be this person. I, this is not who.
Speaker 3:I didn't know what I didn't know.
Speaker 2:Did not know what you embraced it though you embraced it which?
Speaker 1:is not the norm which is not the norm, but my question is do you think that when you've got someone that is in that situation, that it'd be better to have someone else share that with them and not the spouse, because I don't know if it would have been accepted and or in the same manner as it's funny, you just you just drilled right down to the right question.
Speaker 2:Why did I take two and a half minutes to express that? But that's, yeah, I think ideally it's not the spouse. If the spouse is going to say it, that's where I was kind of going with it. It's a challenge because of their central nervous system, or if they're going to do it, but yeah, it's your. You're so right Cause I can think of. I mean, there's I.
Speaker 2:Today has been a big, emotionally immature day in therapy. You know, we're meeting it. When we record these it's 11. I started today with a 6 am session and they've been solid. And it's been a big day of men who have been in relationships with emotionally immature women. And then, right, and even that one, though they initially are presented as the narcissist and I think that one's fascinating as well. But then they still had to hear the data from somebody else. I mean, this is where a couple of these women sent the guys my podcast said you're a narcissist, you know, and really they were just incredibly emotionally immature, they were maybe having this nice guy syndrome, and so then they're angry, but then fine, I'll listen. And then they both have said they resonated with things I've said because it's like, okay, I can take it from him, but when I hear it from her, then it's like well, yeah, well, you do this too, or you know, there's that kind of vibe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you know, I think that you know your spouse so well and I think you also know their weaknesses and yeah, for sure to push, and if you're feeling uncomfortable then you're going to push those buttons because you want it to stop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah, um, I should finish, should finish this comment too, cause I mean, if anybody catching that I had mentioned that these two happen to be now we're discovering maybe the the spouse, the wives are more emotionally immature, and I just that's what that is so interesting and, I kind of think, validating for the that we're all emotionally immature because in this scenario you've got these the nice guy syndrome, guy trying to just people please, but then doesn't know how to express his emotions, so that then he just thinks, if I do these things, everybody will validate me and think I'm amazing and meet my needs.
Speaker 2:And then, when they don't, then the immaturity comes out and then he does express these narcissistic tendencies or traits.
Speaker 2:So in this scenario you get a guy who is now getting the right tools, and then he's, he's just soaking it up and then and I say this jokingly, but at some point in these scenarios sometimes the guy will look at me and say, isn't actually she the one? That's more emotionally I'm like, oh, you, you be quiet, keep that one to yourself, like that's you know. But then in my mind it's like, okay, this is great, because now he, he can be the stable force, the presence that then kind of helps her feel more safe, cause even then now she's still going to test the relationship for safety because she's heard him say I get it a thousand times before. So the whole dynamic is so fascinating. That's why I say that we're we're really all emotionally immature. And if you're, you know, and if somebody is listening to the podcast or somebody's even asking themselves if they're the narcissist, I would say they're not, because the true narcissist is they are just amazing and wonderful. They're not going to even take a pause to worry about any of this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're just peasants, exactly.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:So I thank you. I actually wrote this and I wanted to just read when her question came in and I was just thinking about our class, tony, that you've put together and I'm a coach in there and it's waking up to narcissism. But this is what I kind of thought of when I was thinking about her question and I just said imagine you're in a small boat in the middle of a turbulent sea. Your husband, with his potentially narcissistic behaviors or emotional immaturity, is like the storm that constantly threatens to capsize you. The waves of gaslighting and manipulation crash against you, making you doubt your own reality and sanity. It's a relentless battle, but there are steps you can take to stabilize your boat and find your way to calmer waters.
Speaker 1:First, educate yourself about narcissism and codependency Exactly what we were just talking about and Tony has so much information out there for you. Knowledge is your anchor. Understanding these patterns can help you recognize manipulative behaviors without internalizing them. It's like learning the patterns of the storm, so you're better prepared to face it. Next, setting boundaries is like building a sturdy hole for your boat. Clearly define what behaviors are unacceptable or non-negotiables. Think about what is a non-negotiable behavior that you will, no matter what, not put up with and communicate these boundaries firmly. Narcissists or emotionally immature individuals often push boundaries Talked about this as well so staying consistent and firm is crucial. It's not easy, but it's necessary to protect yourself from being overwhelmed by the storm, so seeking support is another lifeline.
Speaker 1:Consider finding a therapist who specializes in narcissistic abuse and codependency Tony's a great one here. Think of them as your guide, providing you with strategies to manage and heal from the emotional turmoil. Therapy offers a safe harbor where you can explore your feelings and develop healthier patterns of behavior. Additionally, self-care is like ensuring your boat is well-maintained and seaworthy. Engage in activities that bring you joy and peace, and surround yourself with supportive friends and family. This will help you build your resilience and maintain your sense of self-worth, so critical, giving you the strength to navigate through the storm. And lastly, if you feel threatened or unsafe, it's essential to have a safety plan in place. This might include finding a trusted friend to stay with or contacting local resources for assistance wherever you are in that situation, but your safety is paramount and having a plan can help you feel more secure, like having a life raft ready in case of an emergency.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, I like that, I like that, I like that.
Speaker 1:I've written those things out when I started to kind of think about her question and how to help her. So I was just thinking of a boat and the stops that are surrounding her and how she can navigate that.
Speaker 3:Like one of Tony's phrases that he taught us early on, and that's self-care is not selfish, selfish, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Amen Amen.
Speaker 3:Love that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's nice.
Speaker 3:How do you internalize?
Speaker 2:that. Well, it is because the again it's usually the pathologically kind person that has been selfless and has put themselves out there for everybody else who now has to try to find the time for self-care. And then it's like I've watched that over and over, where then the person will say, okay, well, there, there is no time, and it's because they're busy taking care of everyone else, and uh, that's, that's just really difficult. And I know Tricia teaches self-care, basically talks about self-care in the women's group, and and I really you know you've done some really good work there with just starting to even just explore what it would look like, what are your values. You know it doesn't have to be run a marathon or you know anything like that.
Speaker 1:Cause they always feel so uncomfortable. It's just like I'm asking them to run up Mount Everest or something. It's like, no, just like taking five minutes and just having a moment to yourself and what it's like for them. Yeah, yeah, any other last minute thoughts, gentlemen.
Speaker 2:I like what you said there about the recognizing the patterns. You know, in that boat analogy even, because I do think that there's a you know, when you look at the constant forward motion, kind of a vibe when you're, when you're learning about yourself or your relationship, is that I think we often just assume that then we'll figure something out and then we're stuck there the rest of our lives. But recognizing the pattern is one of the first things to do, to then start to then know what do I do with this. But I think when people, people will often recognize patterns and then just figure out how do I survive? You know, now that I know the pattern versus all right, what do I do to disrupt the pattern or bring change into the relationship?
Speaker 2:Because we're pattern finding people. That's why we form habits and we habitualize everything. But then the patterns get too comfortable and I think that's where people will then say well, I know he does this when this happens, so then I have to do this to make sure that he's not mad and that the kids will be okay, and so then people just fall into it and that is my life. But it's like if I know that, then now I can maybe do something different about that but which is hard and scary yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I like that Tony.
Speaker 1:Then we get into those triggers, and what does that all mean, and for both?
Speaker 3:So I mean that's a whole different topic, but and one other thing that I just mentioned is don't give up on yourself. Yeah, you know, sometimes we get uncomfortable and we just let ourselves slide back into old habits.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 3:Don't give up. Keep the pressure on yourself to make sure yourself is better. You can't fix the other person, although we'd really like to sometimes, yeah, and I know that Tricia has felt that way about me more than once, I'm sure but the fact is is that we can only change ourselves and don't give up on you and recognize your own personal value.
Speaker 1:And I also think that we each have a role to play and it's imperative that we focus on our own role rather than the other person, because we're trying to make ourselves better and whatever that looks like, and by doing so, either the other person will raise up to where you're at or they won't, but the focus needs to be that differentiation that we've learned so much from you, tony, is really critical. And what does that even look like? What does that even mean for each individual? A lot of people don't understand, because they're so enmeshed in those relationships they really struggle to like what, what, what does that even look like for them? So it's hard.
Speaker 2:Okay, and now, now, like I'm a yes anding that cause one of the guys I was working with today, who was one of these that was viewed as the incredibly emotionally immature, is starting to wake up to that immaturity I was. I told him I was proud of him because he, we were talking about differentiation and he said you know what? Gotta be honest, he's like I know you say it a lot. I really don't know what it looks like, I don't know what it means. And he said, and I never would have said that in a million years, he said I would have, and I, I'll go read about that, I'll go figure that out later, and then I wouldn't you know. And yeah, and so I, just, I was just I. That was a significant change because here's a guy that you know when you're emotionally mature, you have to have an opinion about everything. You can't be caught not knowing something or being heaven forbid being wrong.
Speaker 3:So that was because you're a victim right, yeah, or you are Well.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought you meant another thing, you know, or whatever it is it's like. But this guy was like you know what? I don't really understand what that means. So that's why I'm saying that was so significant, because this guy's a he does very well for himself. You know, he, he looks the part. So I just told him, like I see the courage that takes to say I don't know, but then once you get good at it, it's actually pretty, pretty fun. I don't, I don't know a lot of things, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to just also end with I recognize how far Jeff has come, and by him being able to recognize where he was once and the changes that he could make, I just love that he chose to make them because he didn't have to, and I recognize that that was. That's been a hard path to go down because he's had to. He's had to recognize that, no, he doesn't know everything and there's a lot of times that he is wrong and we all are.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about just, I'm just so proud of him too, how far he's come and his ability to take a look at himself and go hey, there are some things I need to work on and I'm willing to do that. It's the willingness that has been so huge. Hey, can I, can I?
Speaker 2:I almost yeah, I shouldn't take that. Yeah, well done, jeff. Right, I was already wanting to make it about me. Shockingly, there's a part of me that almost doesn't want to share this, but I think that I think that this would be appropriate right now. It's going to, because I know that this isn't a validation seeking move, but I want to read.
Speaker 2:I got a text from one of my my adult daughters and it came out of nowhere and I don't think I'll cry this time. So I've read it 900,000 times, but this is. But this is like one of the things where I think what we're talking about here. You know this, she's so adorable. She said this is random. She said I promise I'm not on drugs or anything, so already I was like I was just thinking about it.
Speaker 2:She said I can't put into words how much I look up to you and how amazing it is, with all the things that you went through in your childhood, then you still decided to give your kids everything and work on yourself the way that you did and give them the things you didn't have. She's like you had every single right to be so bitter and upset with the universe. And she said I wouldn't even blame you one bit if you had reacted that way. But you didn't. Instead, you became, you was I mean, that was just a couple of days ago and I, I mean, I will ride off of that forever.
Speaker 2:But I just think you know, if you are emotionally immature, if you, if you don't like how you're showing up, but you don't know what to do about it, you're aware of it. So start that journey. I mean we're, and it doesn't matter how late, I mean cause it just is when you figure it out, and then it can change that dynamic. For you know, I mean that right, there is my daughter seeing that I yeah, I could have just stayed in this victim mode or been immature and wanted it my way and wanted nothing but validation, and and then my kids would have seen that model, this, well, that's what you do versus the man, where we can change that dynamic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, thanks, becky.
Speaker 2:That was. That was a good one.
Speaker 3:Yes so remember that's nice, so we got right into this. You know, both all three of us have had experience in this issue, so I'm just really grateful for the question and the opportunity to be vulnerable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so so good. And so, becky, your mental and emotional health are critical, so you deserve to feel safe and respected in your relationship, and prioritizing yourself is not selfish. Can we all say that again? Self-care is not selfish.
Speaker 2:Self-care is not selfish.
Speaker 1:It's necessary. So that's all for today's episode of the Q&A Files. Thank you so much for Dr J, for Tony and all of you for tuning in and for your thoughtful question. Becky, what burning question do you have on health, nutrition, medicine or relationships? We'd like to answer your question as well. So remember, don't hesitate to reach out to us. Just email us on trishajamesoncoaching at gmailcom and we'd love to answer your questions. So take care of yourselves and each other. See you next week and we can't wait to see you again. Bye-bye, bye, everybody. Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files, delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to trishajamesoncoaching at gmailcom. Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit, subscribe, spread the word and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson, signing off. Stay curious, keep thriving and keep smiling, and I'll catch you on the next episode.
