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If you've ever felt like an impostor, struggled with insecurities or battled your inner critic, then this podcast is for you embrace humility and gain access to your real self by unlocking the power within you.
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So here's your host, Dimple Bindra.
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Welcome to Super Charge Your Souls Transformation podcast.
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I am your host mbira, where today we are honored to have Doctor Debbie Silver, the Transformation Maven behind the P BT Post Betrayal Transformation Institute and the visionary founder of National Forgiveness Day, a beacon of healing in personal development realm.
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Doctor Silver is a holistic psychologist, health mindset and personal development expert and a two time number one international best selling author.
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Her pioneering work on Betrayal has not only led to three groundbreaking discoveries but has also positioned her podcast from Betrayal to Breakthrough among the top 1.5% globally.
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Doctor Silver's dedication to guiding individuals beyond their betrayal and obstacles to words, a life filled with health, happiness and a true transformation makes her a truly inspiring figure in the journey of personal growth.
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So today, our topic is on how an unhealed betrayal impacts your health work and relationships.
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And Doctor Debbie, I'm so excited that you're here on our show today.
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So welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much.
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Looking forward to our conversation.
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So please tell me, Doctor Debbie, what is your story?
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How did you end up diving deep into this whole betrayal thing and its impact on us?
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Yeah, I don't think anybody says, you know, I think I want to study betrayal.
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No, you study because you have to.
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I'm in business 32 years.
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It was health and then mindset and personal development.
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And then I had a really painful betrayal from my family.
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, thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that.
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And then it happened again a few years later.
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This time it was my husband, anybody who's been through it, it's heartbreaking.
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, and it was devastating life as I've known it was no longer.
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So I got him out of the house and I, I looked at the two experiences thinking, well, what's similar to these two, of course, me, but what else?
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And I realized that I never took my own needs.
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Seriously bound.
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Boundaries were always getting crossed.
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And I'm one of those people that believes if nothing changes, nothing changes.
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So here it was four kids, six dogs, a business.
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And I decided to go back for a phd and I didn't know how I was gonna pay for it.
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I didn't know how it was gonna manage the time and it was in transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential.
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Because I was changing so much.
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I didn't really understand what was happening.
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He was too, wasn't ready to look at that.
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Then it was time to do a study.
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So I studied betrayal and naturally I, I was studying it really just so I could heal.
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I had no idea that that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.
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Wow, that is amazing.
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So, if you can please answer this for me, because, you know, I also coach a lot of clients and half of them have gone through their betrayal trauma that you call it.
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And I would love to know what are the usual signs that someone's still messed up from betrayal?
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Like how does it show up in their bodies and their moods?
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What would you say?
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Yeah.
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You know, well, that was actually the second discovery and, and that was that there's actually this collection of symptoms, physical mental and emotional so common to betrayal.
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It's now known as post betrayal syndrome.
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So we've had over, I don't know, 95,000 people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling.
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A few things about that.
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The first is we've all been taught time heals all wounds.
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We'll have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true.
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So betrayal will follow you around.
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It, you cannot count on time to heal it.
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You cannot count on a new relationship to heal it.
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The only thing that heals it is healing it deliberately and intentionally.
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But generally, to answer your question, we see it where it affects your health, your work, your relationships in these, in these ways, as far as relationships, I'll see it in one of two ways.
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The first is a repeat betrayal.
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Classic sign that it's been unhealed.
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You keep going from partner to partner, partner, friend to friend to friend, right.
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Boss to boss, to boss.
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And you wonder is it me?
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Yes, it is not in that.
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It's your fault in that.
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It's your opportunity.
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There's a big lesson waiting and needing to be learned, you need better boundaries in place.
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You are lovable worthy and deserving whatever that is for you until and unless you get that you're going to have opportunities in the form of people to teach you.
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So the other way we see it in relationships is the big wall goes up, you know, and people think, oh, there's no way, no one's getting close to me again because it was so painful that we would rather keep everyone at a distance than risk that level of vulnerability.
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So people think it's coming from a place of strength that's not, it's coming from fear.
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That's an unhealed betrayal.
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We'll see it in relationship.
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I mean, we'll see it in health.
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People go to the most.
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Well, meaning amazing doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress related symptom, illness, condition disease at the root of it is an unhealed betrayal.
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Like for example, and I, and I would love to read you some of the stats I would love to and, and I'm sure our audience will love it too, please.
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Yeah, sure.
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But just, just to wrap up that, you know, to answer that question.
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For example, one stat is 45% of everybody who's been betrayed has a digestive issue.
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And that could be Crohn's I BS diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, you name it.
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So now think about this.
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They can go to the most.
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Well, meaning amazing gut doctors.
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I'm friends with many of them, right?
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And they can put them on this beautiful pro protocol.
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But they're only gonna go so far if they don't address the betrayal because the betrayal is at the root of it.
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So it affects everything.
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But what I would, but what I would love to do is share some of these debts because everybody will hear, you know, if you think well, it's just aging or oh, it's just stress.
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No, it's not.
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It's your unhealed betrayal even if it happened years ago.
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So this is 95,000 plus people, men, women, just about every country is represented ready.
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Yes.
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Out of all of them, 78% constantly revisit their experience.
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81% feel a loss of personal power.
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80% are hyper vigilant.
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I mean, that's just exhausting right there.
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94% deal with painful triggers.
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If you've ever had a trigger.
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It is, it's, it's so hard.
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It's so sad.
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It's so painful.
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The most common physical symptoms.
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71% have low energy.
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68% have sleep issues.
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63% have extreme fatigue.
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So you wake up in the morning, you're exhausted.
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Your adrenals have tanked, 45% have weight changes.
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So in the beginning, maybe you can't hold food down later on, you're using food for comfort.
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You're emotionally eating.
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I mentioned the digestive issues.
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The most common mental symptoms.
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78% are overwhelmed.
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70% walking around in a state of disbelief, 64% are in shock.
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62% can't concentrate.
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So let's just stop there.
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You can't concentrate.
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You have a gut issue, you're exhausted.
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You still have to feed your kids.
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You still have to work.
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That's not even emotional emotionally.
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88% experience extreme sadness.
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83% are very angry and you can bounce back and forth between those two numbers all day long.
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82% feel hurt.
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79% are stressed just a few more.
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This is why I wrote the book Trust again.
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84% that number killed me.
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84% have an inability to trust.
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I mean, think about what an inability to trust will do to your life and we can talk about that.
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67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they were afraid of being hurt again.
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82% find it hard to move forward.
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90% want to move forward.
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But they don't know how, oh my goodness.
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These numbers are like, really, really shocking because if you want to go even crazier about these numbers, you didn't hear me say one thing 20% 30% right.
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These numbers are super high.
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They're also buckle up everybody.
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They're also not necessarily from a recent betrayal.
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This is from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid.
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This is from the girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school.
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So think about this for a minute.
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That person may not know care.
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Remember, they may not even be alive.
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And here we are walking around with symptoms years, possibly decades later because something was left unhealed and the good news is you can heal from all of it, which was the third discovery finally.
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Ok.
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So this is like answer to a lot of women's question.
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Like, can I even heal from it?
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And you're saying you absolutely.
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And you know, and, and just before I get, and I'm happy to share the third discovery.
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The first one though, that's really important too because what was discovered was, you know, I had a feeling betrayal was a different type of trauma.
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I've been through death of a loved one.
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I've been through disease and I was like, hm, betrayal feels different and anybody who's been through it, if you've been through more than one type of trauma, if you've been through betrayal and something else, you'll notice it does feel very different.
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And, but I didn't want to assume it was the same for all my study participants.
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So I asked him if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal.
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Does it feel different for you?
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Unanimously?
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It feels so different?
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And here's why because it feels so intentional.
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We take it so personally.
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So the entire self gets shattered, rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust.
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Like when you lose someone you love, right?
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You grieve, you're sad.
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You mourn the lost life will never be the same.
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You don't necessarily question the whole relationship.
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You don't question your ability to trust.
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You don't question your sanity with betrayal.
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You do.
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So the invitation is after betrayal.
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Not only do you have to rebuild your life, you have to rebuild yourself.
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So I coined a new term post betrayal transformation.
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That's the complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal.
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Because if you do it right, which is the third discovery.
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If you do it right, you are not the same person.
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You were beforehand.
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You are strong, healthy, whole healed, confident.
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It's earned all because you know you, you, you totally and completely move through it.
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Oh My goodness.
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OK.
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So can you share and I this I hate to say this, but I know betrayal sucks big time for a lot of us and some of us don't even know that we have, we have this betrayal trauma.
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But is it different from other crappy experiences?
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Like you already mentioned?
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You know, when someone passes away or death of a loved one?
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So is it, is it different and how does it mess with us in ways that other traumas don't?
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Yeah, it's just like I shared that but that was the first discovery, the shattering of the self is what makes it different because let's say let's take a natural disaster.
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You lose all your stuff, you lose your home, you lose your belongings, but self is still intact, right?
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You don't feel like with, with the trail, you, you feel like think about it, it's your sense of safety and security.
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This was the person where these were the people you trusted the most.
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This was the person or these were the people that you run to when other people are causing harm.
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And then this is the person, these are the people who's causing the harm.
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So where do you go?
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Where do you turn?
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You see?
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So it's, it's a very different it's a very different type of trauma because it feels like the person that you felt safe with, you felt comfortable with.
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It's like they just take a mask and pull it off and you're, you know, you know, you're, you're shocked.
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Like, wait a second, what happened?
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I, I was following these spoken or unspoken rules and without my awareness or consent, they were completely and totally broken and it's, it's a shock.
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You feel like I remember one of my study participants saying, you know what it feels like, it feels like every negative emotion you can imagine getting punched in the gut and losing a child in a crowd all at the same time.
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It's horrible.
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It's horrible.
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But like I said, the good news is you can heal from all of it.
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And that's the third discovery and I'm happy to share it if you want to hear more.
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Yes, please tell us about the third discovery.
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Yeah.
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So for me, this was the most exciting.
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And what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades a lifetime.
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And most people do if we're going to fully heal.
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And when I say fully heal, I mean, those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, like I just shared to this completely rebuilt place called post betrayal transformation.
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We're going to move through five proven predictable stages.
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And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every one of those stages and we know what we need to do in order to move from one stage to the next.
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So healing is entirely predictable.
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The clients you see they're most likely in stage three.
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And I'm happy to share the five stages because everyone will know exactly where they are when I do.
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Yes, please including me.
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I need to know what stage I'm on from you.
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So this is great.
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Thank you.
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You will totally know.
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So they're all mapped out and trust again.
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It's, it's what we certify all of our coaches and it's all we do within the P BT Institute.
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But I'm gonna give you sort of a boiled down version.
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So if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual.
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What I saw with everybody.
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Me too was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being well.
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If a table only has two legs, it's easy for that table to topple over.
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That's us.
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Stage two shock trauma D Day.
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Discovery Day.
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This is by far the scariest of all of the stages and it's the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview.
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So right here you, you got the news and life as you've known it is no longer.
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You've right here.
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You've ignited the stress response.
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You're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness condition, disease.
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Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelmed.
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You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned.
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This makes no sense and your worldview has just been shattered.
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Your worldview is your mental model, how you view the world, the rules, right?
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Don't go there, trust this person and in one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've been holding to be real and true is no longer.
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The bottom has bottomed out on you and the new bottom hasn't been formed yet.
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This is terrifying.
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But think about it.
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If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do?
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You'd grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive.
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That's stage three, survival instincts emerge.
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It's the most practical out of all of the stages.
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If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this?
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Who can I trust?
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Here's the trap though.
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Stage three, this is the one that everyone gets stuck in and here's why once you've figured out how to survive your experience because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma you just came from.
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We think it's good.
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We're like, ok, I got this and because we don't know there's anywhere else to go.
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We don't know about stage four or stage five transformation doesn't even begin until stage four.
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But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go.
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We plant roots here, we park here, we're not supposed to, but we don't know that and four things start to happen.
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The first thing is you start getting all those small self benefits.
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You get your story, we love our story, right?
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You get to be right.
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You get sympathy from everyone you tell your story to and on some level, you're not really feeling good and not getting much else.
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So we take it.
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So we plan deeper roots and now because we're here longer than we should be.
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Now the mind starts doing things like, you know, maybe you're not that great, maybe you deserved it.
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Maybe this, maybe that.
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So we plan deeper roots again.
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We're not supposed to be here, but we don't know.
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And now because these are the thoughts we're thinking, well, this is the energy we're putting out and like energy attracts like energy.
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So now we start attracting circumstances and relationships and people to confirm.
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Yep, this is where you belong here, this place right here.
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This is where people join that lame support group and they will actually sabotage their healing because they found their people.
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This is where you start to heal, but your betrayer is not changing.
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You will sabotage your healing because you're afraid to outgrow your betrayer.
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It's so subtle but it happens all the time.
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And so that's a setup for repeat patro, we could talk about that also.
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So it gets worse, but I'll get you out of here because it feels so bad.
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But we don't know.
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There's anywhere else to go right here.
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We start using food, drugs, alcohol, work TV, anything to numb, avoid and distract ourselves.
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So think about it.
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We do it for a day, a week, a month now to have it a year, 10 years, 20 years.
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And I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing or that numbing in front of the TV?
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Or drinking.
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Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal?
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They look at me like I'm crazy.
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You see, it happened 20 years ago.
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All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there.
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Does that make sense?
19:49
Yeah, totally makes sense because they have, they have rooted their problems deeply into whatever problems that they are telling the world and now it's like a tree and now they're like, stuck right there.
20:01
Exactly.
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Exactly.
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And then now here's what makes it even worse.
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And if I tell you how many people come into the P BT Institute with therapy Trauma because here's where you'll be seeing your therapist and maybe in stage two with the shock, that's be, that's, it's really helpful.
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But if there's anything that glues you to stage three, like crazy glue, it's endlessly unpacking your story without a specific and deliberate plan to move forward.
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So people come in to the PB D Institute all the time and they're like, I've been in therapy 10 years.
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I just learned about the five stages.
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I've been in stage three for 10 years and that's what happens because yes, you're feeling heard, but you're also re traumatizing yourself.
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You're validating your story and I know these people from a mile away, their story is so well rehearsed.
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They said it a million times.
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But the problem is if they can't imagine who they'd be without their story, that story is going nowhere and that's what they, and they don't know about those other stages.
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Anyway.
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You want me to go to stage four and five?
21:12
Yes, please.
21:14
Ok, I love that.
21:15
Can't leave you in.
21:16
Ok.
21:17
So if you're willing, willingness is a big word right here.
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If you're willing to let go of the small self benefits, grieve, mourn the loss, a bunch of things you need to do.
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You move to stage four.
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Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal.
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So here's where you acknowledge, I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it, right?
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In that decision, you're turning down the stress response, you're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage you've been picking up in stages two and stage three.
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Stage four feels like if you've ever moved.
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So if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo apartment, whatever, all your stuff's not there, it's not quite cozy yet, but you're like, yeah, we got this, we can do it.
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It feels like that.
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But think about it.
22:07
If you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right?
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You don't take those things that you've outgrown.
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And what I found was there's this one spot where people move from stage three to stage four.
22:19
If your friends weren't there for you, you've outgrown them.
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And people ask me all the time.
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What the heck, I've had these friends for 1020 30 years.
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Is it me?
22:26
Yes, it is.
22:27
You're undergoing the transformation and if they don't rise, they don't come along.
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That lame support group, you've outgrown it right here.
22:35
That betrayer who's not changing, you're done.
22:37
So it's, there's a lot of shifts in our relationships as we move from stage three to stage four.
22:44
Once we've settled in, we've made it a emotionally home.
22:49
You know, we move to the most beautiful stage and this is healing rebirth and a new world view, the body starts to heal self love, self care, eating well exercise.
23:00
We didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier.
23:03
Now we do.
23:04
We're making new rules.
23:06
We're making new boundaries based on the road.
23:08
We just traveled and we have a whole new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now.
23:13
And the four legs of the table in the beginning, it was really all about the physical and the mental.
23:18
By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too.
23:24
Those are the five stages.
23:26
I love it.
23:27
Wow, this is, this is awesome.
23:28
I feel like you have given us so much already.
23:31
But I want to ask you one question, let's say a woman who has been betrayed by her family members or let's say her father.
23:41
And it's very common for her to have these multiple relationships over her course of her life with different men, always betraying her trust.
23:51
So earlier, you mentioned the betrayal is coming from a parent and, and, and we may not even know it's not our fault, but we somehow still get attracted to that energy, right?
24:04
Because we have unhealed betrayal.
24:07
So if someone finds that out, what, what are the first steps that they should do, let's say that they cannot join the PB D Institute, but they want to do something on their own and they're probably stuck at stage 1 to 3 because that's more like where they are at.
24:23
What steps do you recommend them to do?
24:26
Yeah.
24:27
And it's a great question because until no, unless you realize that these repeat betrayals are coming up to show you and teach you something so valuable.
24:37
That's why you keep experiencing it because it's not that these relationships are so good.
24:42
They're just so familiar.
24:44
Like, look at my example.
24:45
Yes.
24:46
First it was my family and then it was my husband.
24:49
Now for me to do anything for myself was out of character, for me to do something as big as enroll in a phd program.
24:59
I mean, I was 50 years old.
25:01
I, I didn't know how to study like that.
25:03
Or, or how, how I was gonna afford it and all of these things, but it changed the entire course of my life.
25:09
So and then because of that lesson learned, right?
25:14
It didn't have to I didn't have to keep learning these new lessons.
25:19
So and just to close the loop on my story because people are usually curious when it comes to rebuilding, it's always a choice whether you rebuild yourself and move along.
25:28
And that's what I did with my family.
25:29
It wasn't an option to rebuild with them.
25:33
Or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something from the ground up entirely new with the person who hurt you.
25:43
So, not long ago, as two completely transformed people, my husband and I married each other again, rings new dress and our four kids is a bridal party which you only do if you're in stage five, I would, if you're, if you both haven't transformed, you're both in stage three, that's where repeat betrayals happen.
26:05
So to answer your question, the person who keeps having those repeat experiences, they're in stage three, they need to recognize they're in stage three.
26:15
And if they can't afford the P BT Institute, which we have a very we have a 90 day program and we even have a three payment plan.
26:24
I have so many, we have, I have trust again which maps out the five stages.
26:28
I have hundreds of podcast episodes, blog articles.
26:33
So don't stay stuck.
26:35
You just need to move through the stages.
26:37
You could do it quicker if we help you and if you're with people who can support you, but you can do it.
26:43
You just need to recognize where you are and be willing to move through the other stages.
26:48
Got it.
26:49
Thank you.
26:50
Ok, let's talk about forgiveness.
26:52
I know it's a tough pill to swallow.
26:55
So how do we even start forgiving someone who screwed us over and over and over again?
27:01
And do we have to?
27:04
Yeah, it's such a great question.
27:05
Forgiveness is one of those things.
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It's so interesting because if you do it too soon, which a lot of people try to do because they just want to just move along.
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It backfires every single time.
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You know, I remember reading a study when I was doing my study and it said if you feel safe and valued and you forgive, you feel better if you do not feel safe and valued and you forgive, you feel worse.
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And that's really so true.
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But the biggest piece of forgiveness.
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Well, a few things I thought, oh, it's a one and done like ta da No, it doesn't work like that.
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Forgiveness is in layers and stages.
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It takes time also.
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You know, it has nothing to do with the other person.
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It really does.
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It really doesn't.
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You are releasing the power all that pain.
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Has over you.
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Now, when it comes to re rebuilding and reconciliation, that has a lot to do with the other person.
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But when it comes to forgiveness, that's about you.
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You value yourself enough to stop letting the pain of someone else's actions, keep you sick, sad, stuck and small.
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So forgiveness is so powerful and so healing.
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But what I would really offer is if it feels like way too big of a reach right now, go for acceptance first.
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It's a, it's a, a closer reach than forgiveness for a lot of people got it all right.
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And then I have a last question if someone's listening right now and they're thinking, damn, that's me.
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Whatever we talked about, what's the first thing they should do to just get out of the rut?
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Especially if they know they're in stage one.
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They know the betrayer, they're living with the betrayer, they cannot divorce the betrayer or let's say they cannot come out of the relationship.
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What do you recommend?
28:58
You know, it's, it's an interesting thing because when someone is, is the, they've been betrayed, they know they're betrayed and they're they're really not making any changes.
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We all know the definition of insanity, right?
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Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
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So what's happening is if nothing changes, nothing changes.
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So, and I will share this.
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There were three groups in the study who did not heal the first.
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They had their story.
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They were sticking with it.
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They were deeply rooted in stage three.
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That was it the second group.
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This was the group where they, where,, they were numbing, avoiding, distracting.
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They ran to the doctor who put him on a mood stabilizer or anti anxiety medication.
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They were emotionally eating whatever they didn't heal the third group.
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And this is probably the one like you're speaking about.
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This was where the betrayer had very little consequences.
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So whether it was out of financial fear, religious reasons, not wanting to, you know, break up a family or whatever they did all they could to turn the other cheek.
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Look the other way, I saw two things with this group.
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Number one, a further deterioration of the relationship.
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And number two, this group was by far the most physically sick.
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Wow, broken heart can't so be very aware of the price you're paying for no real changes within now, I'm not saying change is easy.
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But when you look at the price you're paying like let's say you're stay and, and I, I believe every parent does what they feel is best for their family.
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And I completely honor that and we have every combination within the P BT Institute of who did what and everything else.
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But what I can, what I can share with you is if, if you're preventing any consequences and because of that, the body can only get sick and you're doing this to be a good parent to your child.
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How great of a parent can you be if you can barely hold it together and barely function.
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So,, there are ways around it and we have coaches who can work you through, you know, any which way you choose, but you deserve to be healthy, whole heal.
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We even have a program for the betrayer.
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And this is, it's so interesting because it's certainly not every betrayer who's going to want to do this.
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But we have a lot of couples where the betrayer goes through our rebuild program.
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The Betrayed goes through our reclaim program and the, and the betrayer becomes someone they're proud of.
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And the betrayed moves through the stages and then it's a different relationship with new love, new respect, new levels of integrity, but it's a tremendous amount of work.
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Not gonna lie a lot of work, but the hardest and the most transformative work you'll ever do.
31:51
This is awesome.
31:52
Thank you so much, Debbie.
31:53
How can our audience reach out to you and how can they join the P BT Institute?
31:59
Thank you.
32:00
Everything as is at the P BT as in post betrayal transformation, the P BT institute.com.
32:07
Perfect.
32:08
I loved having you on our show.
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This was great and it was a pleasure and an honor to have you here.
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So thank you so much.
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And everyone listening and watching, always remember metamorphosis, not medication and I must say so.
32:28
That's it for today's episode of Supercharge Your Soul's Transformation.
32:32
Head on over to itunes or wherever you listen to podcast and subscribe to the show, one lucky listener every single week that post a review on itunes will win a chance in the grand prize drawing of a $15,000 value private VIP day with Dimple Bindra herself.
32:49
Be sure to head on over to Supercharge your Soul podcast.com and pick up a free copy of Dimple's gift and join us next time.