Served with Andy Roddick
Unveiling the Cost of Tennis Stardom: A Deep Dive with Max Eisenbud on Junior Finances, Sponsorships, and Player Representation
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Served is sponsored by Olipop! Check out the link below and use the code: SERVED20 to get 20% off your order: https://drinkolipop.com/served20
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/servedpodcast/
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Watch the Episodes on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0k_--YLuTNuDvq1Dw4zHmw
Hello everyone, welcome to another week of Served. Welcome if you're watching on T2. Welcome if you're watching it a little bit later on YouTube and or listening or watching on audio on Spotify Apple, wherever you get your podcasts on Spotify, apple, wherever you get your podcasts. Listen. When we started this podcast, I think one of the goals was one is there a place in tennis that's not centered around live events where you can take some info, get some analysis on, like any Tuesday right? Obviously, the content kind of takes care of itself when we are in orbit around a major event like a Roland Garros, those are awesome. My jaw drops whenever I see how well these players operate nowadays. Where I have fun is trying to think of ideas based on your feedback, based on an original thought, however it may come together, of giving fans a little bit of a peek behind the curtain. We've done that in the past with Max Eisenbud and others who, by the way, is going to lend his knowledge coming up shortly.
Speaker 1:The basis of this episode is basically finances, money and tennis A player's journey from the time they are potentially first recruited some phenoms from the age of eight years old on to becoming a pro first recruited some phenoms from the age of eight years old on to becoming a pro, becoming a little known. You're a starving artist, then you get good, you win some tournaments, not so starving. Then it becomes basically just a spoil of riches. If you kind of enter the stratosphere of number one in the world, grand Slam champion, then you become a global name. So basically trying to just walk you through the players in your orbit, the finances, how they change different revenue streams and how they are adjusted over time based on market, all these other things, one of the blind spots for me was this first kind of portion of when you're a junior and you're a phenom.
Speaker 1:First kind of portion of when you're a junior and you're a phenom. I was a junior, I was not a phenom. I got better a little bit later in life. So I said who better to bring on and ask to inform us than Max Eisenbud, who has been behind a leading force and behind a lot of these phenoms that we've seen, including Maria Sharapova. So we'll kick it over to the conversation that we were able to have with Max Eisenbud and we will be smarter by the end of it. Max, thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:No problem, thanks for having me. I continue to really enjoy what you guys are doing. So glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you, we'll get right into it so we can save you the time. So, basically, my question was when I, when I texted Max this morning and we ended up having a quick conversation, was the blind spot of kind of funding, what is a kid, what is a young adult, and how that funding kind of lives on past the point of needing it right. So, and Max, you kind of had a really good in view of listen. Okay, let's say I'm a nine-year-old from a country that doesn't have a federation with a surplus of funds, which doesn't have a development budget, how the hell do I get enough money to give myself a chance to train, to go pro, et cetera, et cetera?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's the. That is the is a really important question to a lot of talented kids out there. Parents and this is where the parents really come in it's their first step into becoming these tennis parents is noticing that their child is talented, and then how do they do everything possible to give them all the resources to become great? The issue is when you start sitting down with a pen and paper and say, okay, I need to hire a coach, I need to hire a coach, I need to travel to tournaments, I need sneakers. If you're a young kid, I'm just saying, in Russia or Serbia, and you're going through sneakers, it just becomes very expensive and, like you mentioned, if you don't have a federation that necessarily has a grand slam, has amazing funding, you're on your own, you know. So what are your avenues? A lot of people are reaching out to successful businessmen, women in their cities, local cities, and they start funding. Sometimes it just starts as start funding. Sometimes it just starts as can I borrow $5,000 so I can go play La Pitas in France? And if you live in Serbia and you want to go with your coach, so this process is ongoing, and then that, let's say, you're now 13 or 14 and you want to travel and play the circuit. Before you know it, you need a hundred thousand easily a year. Um, and, and, and, and you can, and it can even be more. So sometimes it's your, your, uh, finding rich individuals that love tennis, uh, that want to help somebody and you're putting you know an investment uh agreement together.
Speaker 2:I've seen agreements where people are so desperate they need the money and you know they're giving sometimes 20% of their prize money forever. Those are the sad cases. And we've seen sad cases where people have maybe put up three, four hundred thousand a year over their whole career and nobody's looking at those agreements. Their parents are just so desperate and then all of a sudden the player becomes top 10 in the world and they're still giving back money and the times that we've we've encountered that. You have to go in and unwind it and then get the lawyers involved and usually a court is not going to hold that up because those agreements were signed when they're very young. But you find yourself in very tough positions and I'm telling you top, top players that everybody has that knows has gone through these type of things.
Speaker 2:I would say it'll easily 70% of the draws that the French Open players have had some sort of funding, some sort of having to pay back. The normal is somebody gives you the money. When you become top 50 in the world. It triggers a percentage of prize money to pay that person back. Then that person can make a little bit more money and then hopefully that person is out of your life. You've seen sometimes where this person is very wealthy and then you make it and they're so happy and they waive it and you don't have to pay it back. But you know it's a very expensive sport and and and. As you even get older and you start playing itfs you played the itfs. You can look back how many tournaments you're playing a year traveling to australia, traveling here, traveling there you want to add a physio. It just becomes very expensive. So this is something that um and parents they're usually the ones hustling and making this, making this all possible to give their kids an opportunity to play tennis at the highest levels.
Speaker 1:So we hear the. By the way, the 70% estimate for people in the role on Garostrol who have gone through this kind of uh, you know, buy now, pay later type situation is is, uh, is is stunning. Um, what role specifically do agencies play in this, and is it most of the time? How often are you on the front end of this funding Because I feel a lot better if you're involved in it? Um, because you don't need the money yesterday versus, you know, versus someone who's opportunistic. So how often are you involved on the front end when recruiting someone, and how often is an absolute nightmare with unwinding these things kind of retroactively?
Speaker 2:I mean, it's no secret I think we touched on it on the last time we spoke we are signing young players and when we're signing the young players, um, we're trying. The first thing we're doing is putting the funding together. Okay, and maybe a little that comes from img and we do have a little kind of fun mechanism for us that we're willing to invest, but it's certainly not a lot of not enough money to make it all work. Then we have to go to the clothing companies and the racket companies and say, hey, this is a great young player, can you do a deal now with the player? And what we do is we waive all of our commission on all the deals we do for our young players because they need that money. We don't need a percentage of that money to keep our lights on. That's one of the benefits of us, or? So we all the money that we negotiate on a racket deal, a clothing deal, all go um to the player. We don't, we don't touch any of that. So you get a little bit of money from img. You get a little bit of money I'm making it up from Nike. Nike's very good at also stepping up and investing these players and listen. At the same time they also get the first right to refusal. So they're controlling as the player becomes good. They have that first right. So they're not it's not, they're not just being a charity, but you know. So then you get a little IMG, you get a little Nike, you get a little racket deal and you add it all up and hopefully you can get yourself to like a hundred grand, you know, somewhere around that part.
Speaker 2:And if the player is young enough, you know, we say to the parents okay, like we got to try to save some of this money because it's only going to get expensive and we spent a lot of time, andy, energy, effort on trying to. When we believe in a player, putting this together with a long path of saying okay. And then you're hammering the academies right, like where do we send them to the academy? Where the academy can train them for free? And a lot of academies don't want to do that. You know it's hard for them and I don't blame them. So sometimes we're negotiating a cheaper rate. Sometimes we're negotiating can we get to the academy and say, hey, can you waive all your fees? And when they become great, maybe a percentage of the prize money can come back to you on the fees.
Speaker 2:So we're constantly trying to solve this puzzle of this expensive sport and sometimes we stumble on a player that later in their career they already had this investor and then we have to try to unwind it, and unwinding it is is a nightmare If you get. You get yourself on the wrong end with the wrong people, and I can. I again, I don't want to say names, but top, top guys, people that you've competed against big numbers by the time you know, if you start at 12 and you come on that tour at 20, that's eight years of funding. I mean that can get up to a million bucks at 20, that's eight years of funding.
Speaker 1:I mean that can get up to a million bucks. So give us you you you mentioned I think you threw out the number of you know 20 or 30% as far as like an interest rate. Is that industry standard or is that like an extreme scenario? As far as? So, what I'm asking for everyone listening is is okay, we're going to fund it. It's not when he says, pay back a lot of times. That's not just paying back the, the absolute sum, that's paying back with interest like a lot of business loans, right? So is there kind of a general industry standard or is it kind of on a case by case basis, and is the number you suggested earlier on the high side of that?
Speaker 2:I mean there's no industry standard because a lot of these deals are happening in countries that are you don't have the funding and it's the, it's the one rich business person that's willing to do it. I think it comes down to the person that's investing how big their heart is, right like, do they want to do? They does it. Is it enough for them that they've been able to help a young kid make it and then that's enough for them? Or some of them just want their money back and more. So there's really no, I would say, industry standard on that and I think, across the board again I think I touched on it before there's a lot of really good people in our industry, a lot of really good people in our industry, and I think there's probably enough people that are in these situations that if they do make it, maybe they're paying them back and a little bit and then that they're out of their life.
Speaker 2:But there's certainly those extreme cases where people get themselves bogged down. Now I will also say if you invest in the player and the player never makes it, you know you don't have to pay them. It's not like you have in the player and the player never makes it. The you know you don't have to pay them. It's not like you have to go work and teach tennis to pay this person back.
Speaker 1:I've never seen, I've never seen an investment where, like, if they don't make it, you know you have to pay it back, but but these are, these are very, very common so you mentioned, uh, that in in deals that you've seen that you've negotiated, at a certain point you don't need IMG, doesn't need the $2,500 commission from a clothing company when someone's building. How much of that is altruism and how much of that is basically let's maintain great relationships. We're in the relationship business. We don't need it now, but we'd love to represent you for eight years past what we currently have contracted.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's just smart and they need it and you know, we you know Al Perez won this year. We started working on when he was 12 years old and you know we didn't make a penny off him for seven years and I think we're going to be okay about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd say that you're going to be just fine as far as these deals go and kind of these funding sources, is it? What have the major changes been in the structure of these deals from, you know, the 80s and kind of players finding their way to volatiles and versus now, you know, and as these deals are structured, are they pretty much the same or in general premise, or has there been any sort of major change or any major hack to make it more beneficial either way?
Speaker 2:I don't think there's been much changes in it. Again, if you have a young player that has an agent and it doesn't have to be IMG- any other agents in your life and there's an investor.
Speaker 2:When you have somebody that knows what they're doing, you're controlling the situation and being able to tell the investor hey, this is how it's going to work. A lot of times the investor if you get this right person that just has a big heart and wants to help, at the end of the day, sometimes they just want to be able to sit in the player box. I mean, that's the ultimate investor, right? The guy that just wants to be around for the ride, sit in a player box, tell all his friends that I helped this person. And there's those people out there Again. Where this gets bad is you're in I'm just making it up some country somewhere in Eastern Europe and you're desperate and this is all you got. And they put the contract in front of you and there's no agent, there's no lawyer, and the parents are like okay, either do this or it's not going to happen, and you get yourself caught in a bad situation and that's unfortunate.
Speaker 1:Now, if that deal is made, is it fair to unwind it, if everyone was eyes wide open, even though it was basically the least shitty of the option available, but still necessary?
Speaker 2:I mean, listen, I can't believe that anybody if you put up X amount of dollars and then you got paid back and then you made some more money, nobody should be paying percentage of your prize money for life. I don't believe in that and I don't think a court would believe in that either.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about how much of a role does uh not not again, not specific to anyone you've you've you've worked with, just kind of generally. You'd be smarter about this than I would. Um, how involved are people in, in, in budgeting for not, I'm not saying once Maria makes it cause, like I understand you, you you've, you know, worked with uh, you know that that was your first client, so maybe you don't understand and you don't work with many struggling artists. But how, how involved is IMG with budgeting for? You know, when you're one 50 in the world, it's not as if you could be playing second round of Wimbledon. People think you're on a certain level financially and that level is close to zero, if, if, you're still trying to make it into the big tournaments. How much advice does a given agency give on budgeting and or investing early on in a player's journey?
Speaker 2:Good question. We try to make the money and not lose the money, so we're not too involved. We're not too involved in that. So what we do is we have we have a lot of great relationships with financial people, tax people, and if we have a client that's starting to make it, we'll make introductions to the family to two or three different tax experts, two or three different finance people, and then let them choose who they think they're most comfortable with and then we'll be working with them on all that budgeting and making sure. But we're not experts in that field. We're not experts in giving financial advice. We're not experts in giving investment advice. We're experts in doing great clothing deals and marketing and building brands. So we try to bring the experts in.
Speaker 2:Now, a tennis player who's traveling 30 weeks a year earning income on, you know, 30 different countries, that's not the typical financial person and that's not the typical tax person.
Speaker 2:So you know it's funny Sometimes. You know someone will say, oh, we know we'll. Someone will say, oh, we have a family accountant and we want them to do it. I'm like, okay, within three months the family accountants falling up saying please help me get out of this situation. So it's a very niche world that these tennis players live in and they got to have really good accountants and tax people and financial people that understand the tax treaties and everything they're doing. So I do believe it is our responsibility as the agent that first contact of the player as they come up to be introducing them to these people, to these experts in the space. So if I'm introducing somebody to the expert coach or an expert physio, the expert accountant and the expert, that's all, I think part of our responsibility to introduce them to the experts, and then I always like to give them three or four different choices and then let the family decide on what they think is best.
Speaker 1:So just for those listeners who don't understand what you're saying as far as the complexities of taxation, and your answer is dictating a different question than I kind of had written down in real time, so I have one more for you after this, but I understand what you're saying. So if you play in Ohio, if you play in Londonio, if you play in london, if you play in dc, so think about all the places where someone plays a tennis tournament, uh, during a given year, states have different uh, you know, basically a policy of taxation. Countries have different policies of taxation. You know, give a rough estimate on how many different places. You kind of need to be well versed as a tennis player and listen. As a former tennis player, I'm too much of a dummy to understand it. But you kind of need to be well versed as a tennis player and listen. As a former tennis player, I'm too much of a dummy to understand it. But just kind of a layman's explanation, max, of what you mean by the complexities of taxation.
Speaker 2:I mean sure. So if you go to the US Open, you won the US Open, ok, and and then you know, then you go and you got to the finals of Wimbledon, ok, and then they withheld money. Now there's no double tax. So your tax person needs to understand the treaties between the two countries, needs to understand the treaties between the two countries. So I'm just making this up If Wimbledon withheld 20 percent, when you go to pay tax on your, on your, in your US tax return, you're not going to then pay 20 percent in the UK and 30 percent in the United States.
Speaker 2:The treaties will work each other to make sure you stay at the same rate, and that's happening all over the world.
Speaker 2:Now, if you want to get into really complex the UK tax, people are going to go after your Lacoste deal, okay, so when you you probably maybe you don't know this, but it'll make you sad but when you got to the finals of of wimbledon, uh, you spent x amount of days in the uk getting ready for it, okay, and those days they will proportion off your how much money you made from the cost for how many days they were in and they will get their little sliver of portion off of that, and so your tax people need to be on top of that and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And it's no secret why all the tennis players are living in Monte Carlo and now Dubai. They don't pay income tax, so they're avoiding the tax on those types of endorsement stuff, but when they go into these countries they get withheld all the prize money either, get withheld all the tax, so they got to pay in all the different. So I mean you could have podcasts for hours and maybe you want to even bring in someone who's an expert in this space, but you need really good people that are making sure. So you have a career of 15 years traveling all over the world. You got to have some really good people around you that are looking into this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and also like, just as an aside before I ask Max one last question like I never decided like this Cause I just I just loved playing Queens and I played well there and so like I kind of just wrote off that section of of time for the year and it was, it was easier, just to like just say that's going to cost a lot of money, um, at some point.
Speaker 1:But hopefully I make some too, um, but like you're making a decision as a player and you don't really care whether you go to Holla or or Queens club, right, like that does. Maybe that doesn't matter as much to you. But then you look at time spent in a certain place and I spend, if I play Queens club, I spend three or four more weeks in London than I normally would. What is that worth on on a clothing contract, like, like Max said. So these are all the decisions that kind of go in to scheduling. You know you'd like to start from a place of like, listen, I'm going to do what's best for my tennis and work backwards from there, which I think most responsible tennis citizens do. But there are factors.
Speaker 2:One more thing I want to ask you there's a reason why Fed never got ready for Wimbledon in the UK.
Speaker 1:I thought it was because he was scared to play me on grass. Yes, that too yeah yeah, yeah, but he played his whole career in in in germany, I believe yeah, I, I think you're overestimating um taxation uh for him, and I think you're underestimating his fear of me on grass courts, uh, frankly speaking, um.
Speaker 2:But hold on. Is this a? Is this a ollie pop moment?
Speaker 1:it could be oh, I could hold on. Oh my god, look at this guy asking you about sponsorships. What a pro.
Speaker 5:Hold on. Look at this guy, hold on. What a real team player. What are my?
Speaker 2:choices. Oh yes, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Vintage Cola Max.
Speaker 5:God bless you Look at this guy, what a. Chock full of prebiotics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look at prebiotics. I like a little root beer. You got a little root beer I got. I got boxes full, uh, this one, I'm going to go. Vintage cola, we'll, we'll send you. We'll send you some, because I know you don't get enough free product, as is uh. Last question, last question that I want from you uh, as we appreciate the shameless olipop reference from max eisenbud, um, when you're kind of approaching companies, when you have a young player, are there companies who are? Because, listen, when you approach any company, it's like investing in a startup that's an idea versus a startup that has some revenue, right. So, as you have a 14-year-old phenom, a Carlos Alcaraz, are there companies that you can go to that you know are more risk tolerant and can basically write off five years because of the upside? Do you know those two or three companies you're going to? And is it also true the other way, where basically some companies only want, like a lock stock, proven entity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think I mentioned it companies only want, like a lock stock, proven, proven entity. Yeah, I mean, I think I mentioned it. I think nike um is definitely one of the brands that's willing to really step up. They have a whole team of scouts that are out there and I also think you know they want to control this kind of first right of refusal. So if you just look at, you know the, the generation of of Fed and Nadal, nike signed as juniors Monfils, burditch, nadal, fed I'm probably missing, but so they had.
Speaker 2:And then what happens is they come up the rankings, they start pushing into the top 10, their deals come up. Now they have the total visibility and they can say, okay, we're going to sign, we're going to go all in on Fed and Nadal and unfortunately we're going to have to drop Monfils and Burditch, but they're controlling the destiny, they're controlling it. Now, that's because they made decisions when they were young to sign these young players. I think it worked out pretty good for them. Now, if you're another brand and you're not taking these risks, then you got to hope and pray that Andy Roddick becomes available. And then he, you know, you can go sign him, you know so, but you don't control your own destiny well, max, um, I'm smarter than I was, like 20 minutes ago.
Speaker 1:So, uh, I I appreciate your, your thoughts on this. Is there anything else in this conversation that, uh, I'm missing because I'm a big dummy?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. I mean, I think it's great that you're having these conversations and, and and educating uh tennis fans who are really passionate about it, and there's just so much more and you're doing a great job of exposing it. There's just so much more than just rolling the balls out and seeing these amazing players play um, and I think it's pretty cool that you're um exposing all that and I'm glad I can contribute a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we appreciate. You know, I think the onus for this, this, this whole venture into this podcast and the media company, was basically we have a lot of knowledge that people don't know. I think it's it's fun to look behind the curtain, but that doesn't happen without bringing experts who know what's behind the curtain, not all of which will come out and just plainly speak about it. So we certainly appreciate your candor, honesty and thank you for being a friend of Served.
Speaker 2:I want to say one more thing. There's a lot of great careers in tennis. And to your listeners, like, if you love tennis, especially if there's young listeners out there, there's so many great careers. I never knew I played, you know, junior tennis and college tennis and it never dawned on me that I wasn't good. Obviously I wasn't good enough to play pro tennis, but I've been able to have an unbelievable career and an unbelievable sport around so many great people. So I just want to say to your listeners like, especially the young listeners out there like there's so much opportunity, if you're passionate about, about tennis, to get involved in the sport and work in it. And I would just, you know, let people know that it's out there for them if they, if they love the sport.
Speaker 1:And that's not an idea, that's a lived experience for Max. If you listen back to our episode and if you haven't listened to it yet and you think what we just talked about was interesting, we did almost an hour of it in one of our first episodes, so definitely look on our YouTube channel to listen to that if you haven't yet. Max, you're the man. Appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Thanks for coming on, thanks.
Speaker 1:Thanks guys. Uh, obviously the the the theme of this episode is kind of money in tennis, uh, a player's journey from being a kid with some promise, you know, up through being 17 on the cusp of actually playing, or maybe playing in uh grand slam events and for those very few elite, maybe even winning a grand slam at 17 or 18, a la, you know, hingis, tracy, austin, rafa, uh, so on and so forth. And then the journey to some success to her standard, maybe being a star, maybe being a superstar, um, what that all looks like, where the payments are coming from. Um, it's easy for any of you listeners to go Google someone's prize money and they say career earnings, and that is, it's deceiving. That is their career earnings on court. I think what we're going to try to talk about and maybe create a little bit of an open dialogue about, without kind of trying to be precious or taboo about the finances of anything, is what are the other revenue streams and how that kind of affects mid-career, later in your career, post-career, so on and so forth.
Speaker 1:One of my blind spots because I wasn't like a child phenom trying to source money at 10 years old I was far from someone who was trying to source uh money. At 10 years old, I was far from uh uh, someone who was trying to figure out funding for my pro career. Uh, pretty sure I wet the bed till I was about 11. Um, so I, I just wasn't that guy. Um, but we've kind of maxed out. But an amazing job, walking us through kind of what options would be for a phenom who wanted to at least give themselves a chance. Uh, it takes money to go to tournaments, it takes money to have coaches, it takes money to travel, it takes money to not have to leave your family and maybe they have to move with you. So from this point forward, we bring in John Wertheim. All he does is work, work, work. Hashtag DJ Khaled Fresh back from Paris, I can see. It looks like you're back in New York City. Where are you, john.
Speaker 3:Actually rare office day back in New York City. Good to see you guys.
Speaker 1:Perfect, okay. So we just had an amazing conversation with Max Eisenbud. We pick it up. Let's say you're 16, 17, maybe deciding to sign with an agent. See what that looks like. Uh, I can tell you, uh, my story quickly and then we're off and running. Uh, here, uh, open dialogue. There's no question that are that's out of bounds uh from the rest of our team.
Speaker 1:So I was fine. I was good in juniors, um, you know, I was good enough to know that I wasn't, like you know, super good, um, and then all of a sudden, at 17, change coaches. Uh, when two massive junior events, uh, eddie her orange bowl. So my world junior ranking goes from like 40, which sounds good but also means you're probably I'm making it on tour to. Uh, I want to say I finished that year in the top three or four. Um, eddie Herr, orange Bowl. Seeded two at the Australian Open win the Australian Open. My progression was in 1999 at the Junior US Open. I think I had like zero agents watching right, because I just wasn't there. I ended up losing to Scott Lipsky, who ended up being a doubles player on tour, but certainly not the type of loss that agents were drilling over. Win Eddie Herr, which is a big event, win Orange Bowl, which is a bigger event, generally world championships. People like you know, federer and yada, yada, yada have all won Orange Bowl.
Speaker 1:I get to Australia in January of 2000. And every single match I play and we're talking the beginning of Eddie Herr is the beginning of December, the beginning of the Aussie Open Juniors, second week of Australia, so end of January. So this is all happening within five or six weeks. Every single agent from any company was there watching every single match, sometimes cheering, just to be heard and seen. They're not approaching me directly. There's obviously a ton of inbound, whether it's my coach, parents, people just coming up and introducing themselves, and then all of a sudden we're at the point where we need to choose representation of which at that moment. We're at the point where we need to choose representation of which, at that moment, I didn't know too much about.
Speaker 1:So this process starts early December. I start winning everything. I go down to February. In February I win the banana bowl in Brazil, which is like the equivalent of an orange bowl. So I've basically ripped off the three biggest junior tournaments in the world within a couple months. Ripped off the three biggest junior tournaments in the world within a couple months and then so from December to April, I win a bunch of stuff, end up signing with an agent, have a Reebok deal in my hand my first Reebok deal with a guaranteed money, incentivized X, y and Z. That was signed in April. So in the course of four or five months I went from you know where are you going to go play a number four in college? And now you have a Reebok deal, you're a pro and you're making money.
Speaker 5:Mike, how much money, how much money were you spending to get to that point? You? Know a lot of money in that in that period of time, like how aware were you at that age of the actual real cost?
Speaker 1:I was, I was aware that, um, there was money being spent, um, money of which, uh, I have two older brothers, um, my oldest brother there's no way my parents could have afforded the cost of, of, of of what I was doing when he was my age, like they would not have been able to afford that. My parents, uh, farmers from Wisconsin, um, you know that, my dad, they, they lived in a trailer together when they first got married, but then, by the time, um, I was coming up, um, they were spending and I didn't understand the stress points of it because they didn't put that on me Um, which, which I'm thankful for, and my dad at that point had been a successful businessman, had worked in if you heard of Jiffy Lube's. He kind of bought one, bought another one, ran them and at least had business acumen. My current business partner and mentor in our real estate company was involved with my father at that point. So I was incredibly lucky that I had a business mentor for not not not as far as like he would reach out and coach, but any questions I had along the way. I knew I was probably one phone call away, um from getting an answer from someone who didn't want or need something from me, and I don't know that that's the case with a ton of people.
Speaker 1:But to answer your question, mike, what is a economy class ticket cost to Australia? What is a coach cost? Tens of thousands? I mean, tariq Benabilis was 20 something in the world, you know. I'm guessing we're paying him, geez, you know tens of thousands of dollars. He was working with other players, so we're not full boating it. But yeah, to travel to Australia to win that major, to then be recruited to, then, you know, sign the Reebok deal. Those were necessary. I don't know that I get that Reebok deal without winning a junior grand slam. And also a part that is a huge part of it is being from a country that was extremely thirsty, in the kind of vacuum of Pete Andre, and always being titled to the next Grand Slam champion and the next world number one. So we're looking at six figures plus, for sure, on a year to year basis. What's up, john?
Speaker 3:So the agents are all going after you? I actually have recollections of that. Your name was very buzzy at that 2000 Australian Open Junior. So the way it's explained to me is that usually the agents don't take a cut of prize money. They do take a cut of everything they bring in sponsorship, apparel, endorsements. It starts at 20%. It usually gets worked down. So let me ask you how, especially given that there was sort of a bidding war situation, how aware were you of how you negotiated that agency fee? Because a lot of times what will happen is you have these agencies just keep undercutting each other and say the other guys will do 15%, we'll do 10% and we'll give you a wildcard into one of our events. Oh wait, we'll give you. So do you know the terms of your agreement with the agency? I think it was SFX. But whoever you chose, were you aware of the terms and are you sort of comfortable talking about?
Speaker 1:what the terms are. Yeah, it was the standard deal. So last segment, john, we talked about percentage of prize money. That normally is part of the payback situation when you get signed at 13, 14, 15 years old. There's basically the loan plus interest. The interest is normally taken out of current and future prize money until it's paid off. And then some Max told us of some absolute nightmare deals and having to unwind because a minor signed it.
Speaker 1:Yada, yada, yada, um, I was aware of big picture items, um, a couple of things that I didn't care about, that a lot of other players do. Um, I wasn't going to sign with someone for an unearned wildcard, right? I didn't I, it wasn't part of my process to say, you know, even if I don't earn it um, or if I earn it enough, like there's no way I can be number one in the world in juniors, um, have a bit of a track record and then not get a wild card into Miami, right? Or even if I don't sign with that agency, I thought it was a bad look for the tournament. Uh, the terms would have been standard. So the numbers you were talking um at first. So I know my Reebok deal had a guarantee um of X amount a year. And then obviously I, when I'm 21 or just turned 21 and winning us open and number one in the world. Um, I'm not playing on the same contract from when I'm 17. It's incentivized. So you negotiate that contract when you're 17 with Reebok and then there are incentives If I make top 10, bonus If I make top five, bonus If you win a slam, bonus If you finish number one. That's all accounted for and you're the happiest person in the world if any of those triggers actually click.
Speaker 1:Now for me, with the agency I was worried about. I was very, very consumed with and I don't know if I still agree with this I felt, I felt like he enjoyed my vibe, I felt like he hustled the most. Sfx was a smaller agency, a much smaller agency compared to some of the other ones. At that point I didn't want to have to compete with an Agassi in the same. He was SF, the same. You know either, he was SFX but he was on like kind of a different planet. I didn't want the same agent. And that was a lot of.
Speaker 1:What the agents would say is like I'm so-and-so's agent. You know, I must be great and in my mind I'm going. If you're so-and-so's agent, then you're busy as shit probably. Um, you know. So I was aware of those things when I was 17,. But, um, you know, my parents did protect me from a lot of it. Like when people would come pitch, I would say hello, you know. 15, 20 minutes of small talk, uh, answer any questions they had for me. And then when it came down to to to numbers and dealings and negotiating, like that was something that I don't think my parents wanted to burden me with.
Speaker 1:When I was on a roll on the court, when my coaching situation was good, I don't think that I, to say, finished at the end of 2003 with SFX, so sign at 17,.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, it comes up again at, at, you know, when I'm number one in the world and us open champion. Uh, at that point I could look at them and say I don't give a shit what your standard deal is, I don't care, because you can represent 42 players that you hope will be good and or that are 60, 70, 80, 90 in the world from non-major markets, and that doesn't do you the same as what I might bring to the table. One of the mistakes my agency made was allowing my friends to intern. So I knew everything backwards. I knew the numbers, I knew what percentage of their business I was at that given moment and so I knew I had them by the balls at 21 years old. But I definitely didn't know that level of detail when I was first signing with an agent. For me it was more about comfort and not getting completely lost in the shuffle of the orbit of the bigger players.
Speaker 5:What was your first prize money check that you got kind of around, you know, obviously pre-US Open, what was the first prize money check you got, where you're just like holy shit.
Speaker 1:It wasn't really holy shit, it was 2000. So we're in Australia Next month. There's a tour event in Delray Beach, of which I went to high school 10 minutes away. Um, of which I went to high school 10 minutes away. Um, so I I want to say maybe I don't remember when I was off the wild card, but I think at in delray beach is a small 250 event, so not like a major um, where they're, you know, burning a massive wild card, but it was a good story locally, um, you know it gets some coverage, um, so there was a maybe an added benefit for them. Um, but I wanted I lost a lawrence tealman first round and I was so pissed cause I would have played Rafter second round, who was like God to me then. Um, and so I I lose to Teelman. I want to say it was like it wasn't like what you're thinking, mike. I want to say it was like between three and $4,000, um of which I went and uh, invested None of it, spent all of it on a sound system for my car.
Speaker 5:JBL.
Speaker 1:It was it was it was one of those obnoxious ones where you get to the parking lot of high school Cause I'm still in high school, I'm a senior in high school when all this is going down. So it's one where I drive myself to high school, uh, and I get there five minutes early only so I can play music loudly in the parking lot, you know one of those type things, exactly what you mean a little little little outcast on the way into uh to uh the morning uh activities all right, let me throw one of you.
Speaker 3:How, how aware do you think other players are of their colleagues financials, like I just learned about I probably shouldn't name her, but a, a french player who had to qualify, uh, for a recent major. Nike gave her a million bucks, 10, you know, 100, 100 grand for 10 years guaranteed. Um, she never really made it and it seemed like everyone kind of knew that and she was almost a marked woman. Um, when players get these guarantees, when they're getting deals with Reebok and when agents are flooding over them, how aware are you of other players' financial situations?
Speaker 1:I think, pretty aware I mean, as you know, from having worked in tennis like there's not a ton of secrets in tennis, like it's this massive kind of macro global sport industry, but it there, there's not a ton of secrets. I mean, I I knew, you know, that, being an American, I was getting better offers than some junior with a similar resume, um, from a tiny country that didn't have, you know, reebok headquartered there and and the market needs someone trying to pick up the next Pete and Andre and um. You know I was especially attractive to other brands because Nike wasn't in on me early. You know, they, they, they. They kind of took a pass the first time around, um, and then ended up signing. You know someone who looked like a, a, a body clone, a couple of years later, uh named, named brendan evans, because they missed on me and you know that that didn't exactly uh work.
Speaker 1:But I think, generally, like there's not a player on tour who doesn't know that kenny shikori uh is out earning them off the court, even if he doesn't have the resume of a slam winner, or someone who is number one in the world, like it's, it's pretty out there. Everyone knows. You can google what a Naomi Osaka made last year and a lot of that is completely I mean, obviously you have to have an accomplishment. Kay broke the record books and was an absolute trailblazer for Japanese tennis. The previous high, I think it was Shuzo Matsuoka, who was in the 60s, maybe career high, something around there. If I get it wrong, just save it somewhere around there. Um, but I, I think we were acutely aware of the fact that nishi kori makes quarters and he's getting paid as if he's won six slams, you know.
Speaker 1:So I think I think you're generally pretty aware of the hype mechanisms, uh, in place, in, in, in kind, of the markets, uh, of everything, and it creates a little bit of a pressure mechanism too. I mean, I, I don't, I don't off the top of everything, and it creates a little bit of a pressure mechanism too. I mean, I don't, I don't, off the top of my head, know the French player that you're talking about, but you know, you have seen some players who are great, great, great, great, great. And then all of a sudden, there's a financial expectation, there's an expectation to have an ROI right, return on investment from a big company walking into a locker room where, you know, I probably at that after I signed that Reebok deal, I'm walking in and I think I have a bigger contract than 80% of the room, even though I am completely unproven on the pro level, and so there is probably some animosity.
Speaker 1:You know it's not completely dissimilar to what we're seeing with. Uh, I'm not comparing myself to caitlin clark, I'm just saying there is an element of every. The wnba knows how successful and how much caitlin clark is being paid off the off the court. And yeah, I mean, if you're an eight-year veteran who's made all-star teams and you don't have this hype mechanism, there's probably some bitterness and I think that probably is well known and probably exists in tennis locker rooms and kind of in the tennis orbit also.
Speaker 5:Can we transition that into like appearance fees and tie that together, because I do think that's a really interesting side of it. You know something I didn't really know a whole lot about until you started kind of telling me about it. You know how, how, how do appearance fees come about? How do they calculate how? Those are the checks given to you, like you're a band and you have a rider with it, or like how do those work, you know, for the guys that have to show up to a two 50 versus the guy that gets paid.
Speaker 1:Yep, um, so quickly, we'll get into that in one second, cause I think the appearance fees is largely completely unknown. People know that people get paid to wear stuff and whatever, anyway. So I beat my agency up. I said, listen, you have first right. I love you guys, you're friends of mine, I trust you, I like you. This is basically.
Speaker 1:I presented them with an offer of this. Is the commission, I'm willing to pay on what you bring in. I will say, like a shoe and clothing deal is an expectation for a top player. So I had a different commission set and I don't know if this is normal, this is just something that kind of I thought of and I thought it was relevant.
Speaker 1:Shoe and clothing, the things that were like tennis industry specific, were valued less than bringing in an Amex or a you know whoever, whoever it might be from outside of tennis, right, not a. You know, you don't, I don't swing a credit card, I don't swing a, a bottle of of Powerade, right, like I don't. I don't do those things. But like, the racket is a given, the shoes are given, the clothing is a given. So I valued those differently on a commission base because I felt like one was a lot tougher um, given the product than than the other. So I, the commissions, I, I valued them differently and so, therefore, but I, I, you know, I simply, when the deal was up, I said listen, you have, here are my terms. You basically have, you can sign. Yes and it's done. I've already signed my piece. You have three days, otherwise this message explodes. You know, all the while you kind of knew that they were going to uh, end up signing it, um, and then from there forward, you know the Reebok deal I think I've talked about this on the pod before Um, if not uh, number one in the world, number two in the world, my deals that went in, oh three deals up in like April of oh five Um. I had a verbal agreement with Reebok in February of oh five Um, and then we basically had a meeting with the, the former chairman, paul Fireman, in a restaurant in Memphis after a night match, uh, he came down, we basically agreed to terms Um, and then we couldn't really get a response from them after that and just for all the things that are going on in the orbit of a given deal, they couldn't tell me that between when they verbally agreed and three weeks later that they had started conversations to basically merge with Adidas and that one of the things was they couldn't bring on new contracts while this was being negotiated. So I'm basically three weeks away from my deal being up two in the pretty marketable at that moment in time and not having a deal. And so Ken Meyerson going and negotiating in France with Lacoste, with the elder statesman of Lacoste, while he was on his hospital bed, and so that's how that deal got done. But they're just always moving parts and different kind of macroeconomic factors that can affect a given deal at a given time.
Speaker 1:Appearance fees, so basically what they are. For people who don't understand it when we say it is, there are tournaments and basically, outside of slams and masters, 1000s, which you kind of, if you qualify for you have to play a certain number of them as per kind of being a part of the ATB tour, being eligible for benefits and yada, yada, yada. These are you kind of sign away. So 1000s and slams, no one's getting paid to play in those, just simply. You know, you see someone you know, top seed in Rome. They're not getting paid. Obviously. You're not getting paid, uh, to play in Wimbledon. Anything outside of those is open season.
Speaker 1:So, uh, for the longest time Memphis was a 500 event.
Speaker 1:Uh, in America.
Speaker 1:Uh, they knew that I probably wanted to play. That tournament was indoors, it fit me and it was an hour and a half flight from. Our two-hour flight from from austin made complete sense and schedule. So, um, I wasn't in a position to rake them over the coals for it, but there was a thousand percent always going to be a six-figure plus deal just to sign up for the tournament before I hit a ball, and it ranged from like the. You know, when I was first on tour you'd get, you know, $50,000 or $50,000 deals to come play and then later on in your career you go and play in places like Abu Dhabi where the government is paying you and it's an obscene amount of money, right, it's just, and I'll tell you the max number and a specific example with Abu Dhabi one year, which will make all of you hate me.
Speaker 1:But so appearance fees, basically, you know, simply, as I'm coming up, I basically get a secondary look at a deal depending on if Andrea Pete has entered the event in the American market. So a San Jose, a Memphis, a Indianapolis at the time, a Washington DC early in my career. If Andre enters then or Pete enters. If they both enter, I'm getting less because they're the priority, that's who are going to get the paychecks. As that shifts, pete retires, I'm in a better situation. I am now called number two for a tournament in America.
Speaker 1:Andre retires, I am the call and without giving myself too much credit, I could dictate terms of a tournament existing sometimes and you try to balance that with. Take Indianapolis, like. I stopped playing it. It was gone a couple of years later. I'm sure there are other factors. So all of that as a player you are taking into consideration. Does it fit in the schedule? Am I only playing this for the appearance fee? Is it a tournament I like? Do I have to travel? If I have to travel, so if I'm traveling across the globe to I don't know, asia or somewhere where it's not a two hour flight, that number goes up for an appearance fee. And then sometimes you can sign a three or four year deal. I think Roger, at the end of his career, had a lifetime deal with Hala and I can only imagine what that would be. We're talking millions and millions and millions of dollars. So it's this kind of complete open market Wild West thing for appearance fees.
Speaker 1:Alcaraz wins the USs open a couple years ago.
Speaker 1:He's getting paid a lot more on a week-to-week basis just to show up.
Speaker 1:And then the turn from the tournament side. You have players that you know will show up and if they've agreed to come to your tournament they are going to play their asses off. That normally serves you well five years later when maybe you're not the hottest ticket on tour, but they know that you will show up and be a professional versus. Sometimes you could be the hottest player uh on earth and tank matches and you know there have been many examples of guys taking appearance fees, flying somewhere, putting in an average effort, and the tournament still has to pay them, which is a um is a problem. But then as soon as that player you know is on the edge of of getting paid or offered an appearance fee, they normally didn't get offered it um anymore, but it is open season, it is a massive business. And so when you look at career earnings, I would say most of the tournaments I got appearance fees at, if I won the tournament, the prize money was less than I was getting paid just to show up.
Speaker 3:The irony of all this is that the smaller events that are more financially cash strapped and don't have the big media deals, they're the ones that have to pay for appearances. There's one exception that is a bit of an open secret and if you're a very, very top player it's not directly from the tournament. But there are some fees available in Australia for for top players that I gather are part public money and they involve some other appearances on the side. It's a great hush-hush because only the very tippy-top players avail themselves. But there's seven figures. I mean there's significant fees. Also, obviously, appearance fees don't appear in any sort of prize money calculation. So when we say John McEnroe made $12.5 million for his career, or Carlos Alcaraz went over the $30 million mark last week and so did Iga, that doesn't include his appearance fees.
Speaker 3:What I'm curious about and I know I mean we've heard some of these fees are $20,000. If you'll come play Houston, we'll hook you up. Others are in seven figures. I mean Roger wasn't playing for less than seven figures. I'm curious what comes with that fee, because for less than seven figures. I'm curious what comes with that fee because if I'm the tournament director and I'm paying one player more than the winner gets. I want him in my doubles draw, I want him talking to my sponsors. I want some sort of non-disparagement clause. So, if you know, if the court catches fire, he still has to say it's a beautiful night and I'm thrilled to be playing in Cleveland. When you went to Indianapolis to pick my hometown but a random example what did you have to do apart from enter the tournament to get that fee that you got?
Speaker 1:Well, one commit early because what they have to do is they have to establish a contract with you and then a lot of times, so, indianapolis, I would finish playing it one year and then it was kind of a negotiation for the next year because the sooner they had me, then they could go to local businesses, sponsors RCA was a sponsor there for a long time and say, you know, if you have the top draw on the American side for you know, a cup of coffee outside of Andre, andre didn't stop playing Indianapolis. So then I was kind of the guy they had to go after. You know, they're going to, they're going to be able to see one. The value of committing early so that they can kind of use your name to secure sponsors. A lot of times clinics involved, a lot of times different press obligations. So instead, like the only thing mandatory is is for every player is if there's pre tournament press and you get requested, that's generally what's required of a player going in. So, whether it's an appearance quickly for the host sponsor, our RCA, any, any, any private capital that's been put in R RCA, uh, any, any, any private capital that's been put in? Um, all those boxes are checked and pre-negotiated um doubles.
Speaker 1:It just depends, you know, but that is a sticking point. I don't remember that being like a uh, a pass fail for for any deal um to get done. I know that there are some appearance fees that like half would be paid. And then for people that went out and tanked which I hope and know that I was never going to be a worry If I showed up to play I gave my appearance fee back a couple of times because I thought I gave a shitty effort or had a shit. Not a shitty effort, but I played shitty and had a bad result. Now offered next to no value to the tournament for that, that given year with ticket sales etc. But all of those things are pre-negotiated If there is an individual sponsor, so you have someone.
Speaker 1:Let's just keep using Indianapolis as an example because we can't get in trouble because they don't have a tournament anymore. If there was an individual donor who basically had a deal where, okay, fine, I'll give you a million dollars for this tournament and if you go above and beyond that million, then I get a percentage of profits past that Great. They have a everything's negotiable. They have a nine-year-old daughter who plays tennis and part of your appearance fee is you have to hit with her for a half hour coming in, like what's that worth? Um, yeah, so all of all of that stuff is on the table, john, but the commitments would be significantly more than and rightfully so, than than anyone else who simply just entered the event. Um, for the ability to play for uh, points and prize money.
Speaker 5:Would you be able to like put riders in your contracts like a band? Like you know, blue M&Ms, only I want my own. Yeah, what you would do what you and I.
Speaker 1:I came out of pocket for this most of my career. I it was just my personal preference that, um, I didn't like staying at the, the host hotels, just because I wanted some space from tennis in the event when I wasn't actually on site. So we've talked about this before. I think kim and I got on one about this where or someone, I forget who it was, anyways but I didn't like going down to breakfast and having having to have 12 different conversations and hi hellos to um, you know, so-and-so's trainers, cousin's wife, um, that that that wasn't something. So for me it was like okay, yeah, well, and I'd like to stay here, and that would normally be be covered, um, unless it was sponsored by a certain hotel brand and they demand it. You know whatever else.
Speaker 1:But there wasn't a rider. I didn't. I never wanted to um in a locker room, uh, present as any different um outside of the bounds of what is my business, um, so there was nothing as far as like private locker or like any that shit I could, I could do without. It was more just um, kind of the, the, the way that I like to generally operate the week.
Speaker 1:Um, if there was a quest a request on hotel, uh, maybe an extra room if I had someone who wanted to come to the event, um, something like that. But it's, it's not. It's not the rockstar rider, where you come on site and there's only orange Skittles um available. I don't, I don't know that it got that far you could probably ask for, you know, whatever Um I wanted, uh, you know, kind of to feel quasi normal, um, even if I was one of you know, only one or two or four people getting paid for a given event For for a top 10 player, you know, is, or two or four people getting paid for a given event For a top 10 player, you know.
Speaker 5:do you think it's fairly average or normal for you know these appearance fees to outweigh their?
Speaker 1:prize money throughout the course of the year for a span of time, or no? No, I think there are. At any given moment, I think there's probably three to five players on both tours that make like screw you type money in appearance fees, and so also it's market dependent. So the Barcelona event right, let's take that as a 500, middle of clay court season. Uh, historic venue, all of the things that you want in a, in a, in a 500 event. If Rafa decides to play simply in a Spanish market, he can take as much of their appearance fee budget as possible, and that leaves David Ferrer with less during the prime of of of of his career. Um, so it it. It doesn't depend on ranking, mike, it probably depends on like curious, you know has never been top 10 in the world and yet I guarantee you his appearance fees at certain events are more than you know. Maybe the number one seed in that event, I would say, more often than not in a smaller event. And now obviously take away the, the Mount Rushmore's right.
Speaker 1:The out of this conversation are Novak, rafa, roger, serena, venus, murray. Prime in great Britain is like, forget about it. Um, all of those players, um, but it it at the end of the day, you know, kornikova, at the height of her career, was commanding more as much an appearance fees as anyone else on earth, you know. So um, it's not a um. Ranking is a part of it, accomplishment is a part of it, but certainly not um, all of the conversation. Like I said, the Abu Dhabi thing I got the biggest appearance fee of my life Right.
Speaker 1:And it's like you know, close to half a million dollars to show up for an exhibition. I show up, uh, 2009. Um, I think there's six players in the draw. They also pulled in fed nadal that year. It was like murderers row of of an exo and no one's played a match. Coming in um like this is how obscene the money is in how source dependent it is. I go out uh, full off season of training, high expectations. Uh played nikolai davidenko and no one's's there. By the way, it's all marketing. It's probably the first. I was probably a participant in sports washing before I understood what it was, john.
Speaker 1:Yeah totally, completely guilty. But I didn't even know it. Honestly, you know I didn't know it. I go out and lose. And two to Dobby Danko I think I was on the court for 48 minutes. Um, doesn't change my appearance fee.
Speaker 1:I go in because I'm like, ah well, you know I, I wouldn't mind playing another match this week, like I was pretty bad. Australia is, you know, three weeks away. I'm here anyways Cause I had some, you know, lose away. I'm here anyways because I had some, you know, lose that match and I have a sponsor, you know stuff, for the next three days because they've bought those appearances, frankly, and I go in. I'm like, hey, before the semis, the finals, if you need, like an undercard, um, you know two sets and a breaker. If there's anyone else that wants to play, uh, that'd be great. And they go. Nah, we're good, we're good, we got the, we got the publicity. We've been here.
Speaker 1:And then I kind of started understanding a little bit more. But it's, they all kind of work differently. You know, there there are certain places that you know you can go get paid, that have been paying players for a long time, certain markets where you know, like, all of a sudden, hala signs that long-term deal with Roger and Murray not like he needs it, myself, the other top players. We know there's more money available at Queens and it's going to be there for a while, because the top draw in grass court tennis for that moment in time has committed to the other side. So yay for us. What else about the gross thoughts of cash?
Speaker 3:So let me ask you you're making money up front. You have this Reebok deal, but especially and I hear now more than ever, these are incentive driven deals, right? So Yannick Sinner gets to number one this week. Big week for Yannick Sinner because he has a lot of clauses that are triggered and activated when he gets to number one. So 2000, you know 2003,. You win the US Open, you get a nice check for winning the tournament, but just you know, you don't get as specific or general as you want. But sort of take us through what happens to you financially when you win a major.
Speaker 1:Okay, simply the base of my deal at that time. Obviously, the deals are 3 and 4X bigger now. I think the fact that the reach is bigger. I can present my own reality through social mediums. You know, I don't know that 100% of the information is is now funneled through what I tell John Wertheim and then how he represents what I tell him to earth based on his opinion of the conversation. Right, so I can affect the market more myself now than I could have then. But I'll tell you, like my first deal, I'll get some of the things wrong and hopefully I don't get in trouble and if we do, we'll just delete this, this segment.
Speaker 1:But uh, my base at 17 was 300 K a year. I think it was a five-year deal, um, after incentives for that, u S open in, oh, three, I think I was somewhere up around three or 4 million based on incentives kicking in, and then that was less than, uh, the per year deal that I signed with Lacoste, you know, a couple of years later, um, and then there were different versions of that. There was a five year Lacoste deal. Then I re-signed um later, um again, and that's before Babelot. I think one of the changes and I wish I would have done it, um, because, also without giving myself too much credit, I think I had a really big impact on creating one of the bigger racket brands, uh, on earth on earth. If I was in that seat now and, let's say, alcaraz was playing with a racket that the American market hadn't really seen before, you know, they started in a different thing and then they differentiated. I should have asked for equity and I passed on equity deals because I wanted the money in hand. That was dumb after a certain amount of money had been made. You know you look at Roger's on deal, uh, that he came in and then they go public. That is a bigger, bigger, bigger check than any per year. Uh, this is what we're paying you endorsement. I do know for sure.
Speaker 1:To give you an example, and I will not name names, one year I was, you know, basically Nike is, or at least was. It was pretty well known. They had the most incentive laden contracts and it was a bit of a marketing mechanism back in the day to announce max value, because then you get, holy shit, they're paying so-and-so X amount a year. We're the biggest, we're the baddest. It's its own kind of self-fulfilling marketing machine. It wasn't always what was guaranteed. It's like an NFL deal that six years, 172 million, but then they say 60 is guaranteed. It's kind of like that, uh.
Speaker 1:But I remember one year I lost in the semis of world tour finals and, uh, I think it was two. One was already secured. It wasn't me, um, and the person behind me, uh, was basically playing a match the next day and it was twofold, I think winning the final was worth a million dollars. And then, uh, I want to say if he won that match, he would have been two and I would have been three, um, and that was worth like a million to a million and a half dollars. So he's going out and playing one match for a couple million bucks, um, you know. And so it is incentivized and it is, uh, you know, it's it. It's a brutal thing. Like I hated it.
Speaker 1:I, in my second deal, I didn't want to be thinking about it as much, I didn't want to know the triggers, I just wanted to focus. I wanted to get as much as I could for a flat fee. You know, one of the offers was, you know, the one I ended up taking. Another from a larger company was, you know they would pitch you on. You know marketing and this and you know all these kind of unknown, assumed things, but we're going to pay you 40% of what someone else's and then it's all incentivized and I'm like I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't like the stress of that, and maybe some people are different and it wouldn't. It would have exceeded the total value of the other one had I hit all these markers. But I frankly just didn't want the day to day deal with it. You know. So these things can always be structured differently, but you know, kind of, what you hear is not always what's going on behind closed doors. I know, you know for a fact, a massive company was paying one of the biggest stars we've ever had. They're laid off for like a year. Their ranking goes down and a lot of it is based on ranking, which is ridiculous to me, because they're Mount Rushmore, regardless of if they're ranked 150 because of injury or one. Um, you know, so it is. It is often different and there's kind of a sliding scale of which I really wanted to think about when you talk about you know kind of these.
Speaker 5:you know the off court deals, right, and they sound like they're obviously way more lucrative, uh, than the prize money. Did you have a investing structure around the way you would treat your prize money versus, versus what you were doing with your, your appearance fees and your apparel deals and all that? Like you know, rob Gronkowski and guys like that are famous for like never touching their playing money because they just used all their sponsorship money.
Speaker 1:Uh well, I I actually kind of um. I was lucky enough to um have very good investment coaching and even midway through my career we started our first uh you know commercial real estate company and um, it wasn't because I was some sort of smart person, it was because I had trusted sources who were those smart people. Prize money to me was. I used it as a vehicle to incentivize getting the best talent around me, whether that was a trainer, whether that was a lot of coaches can get paid. I wanted to incentivize a grand slam final, a grand slam win. Um the same, and that was probably later on in my career.
Speaker 1:I took more control over that Um I, I think through 2004, I was probably, or 2005, maybe I was probably had my head in the sand, um, and then I kind of started owning it a little bit more after that and I knew every decision. I had all the conversations myself. Um. Past that point, there was never a conversation where I approached a coach that was through an agent. Um, every deal that I had, I was in the room. Every product that was pitched, I was in the room. But that was probably started when I was 22. Maybe with that Lacoste deal I was in the room on every conversation and privy to all the information.
Speaker 1:It wasn't a structure of like I'm keeping this and giving that. It was more. I viewed prize money as a way to incentivize and motivate the team around me and feel like I also wanted to feel like I come off the court, I'm winning, we're winning, and I think that really creates a fabric of a team and I don't think that I was good enough about that in the first probably three or four years of my career and after that I think, uh, the team around would would would tell you that I was really good about that. So less about I. You know, this is a bonus. This is invested. All of it was invested um past like living expenses, but I felt like I could use prize money um as a motivator without it really affecting my way of life at all.
Speaker 5:You think that's common on the tour.
Speaker 1:Uh, I don't know. I don't know. I think most players maybe and this is an assumption um, at that time, when I kind of took over um, it took over my own trajectory. I felt like I was really young to be doing that and I felt like a lot of players just didn't care or want to know. Really young to be doing that and I feel like a lot of players just didn't care or want to know. I do think not enough time is spent on investment education right, all investments are not the same. Your uncle wanting to start a bunch of car dealerships and you footing the bill is not a good investment. Something that I was very conscious early of having a lot of capital at a young age and creating a downhill snowball by virtue of not spending crazy amounts of money while I was still in my prime, money making years.
Speaker 3:All right, you want to do some speed round here. Quick answers yes, all right. Financial questions what's the most you've ever heard of a player make in an appearance fee?
Speaker 1:That's deceiving because, like a lifetime deal is worth tens of millions of dollars on a on a, like a per night. You know there are players who have got I've heard you have gotten 2 million for one night of of of an exhibition. And then, if you all of a sudden do a tour of a certain area you know you're looking at, you go to you know Africa or South America, you take another player, you prorate that fee over the course of four or five exhibitions and you what's the most?
Speaker 3:you've heard of the famous story of a player winning a major and giving his coach a $50 bonus. Um, presumably, uh, he just didn't didn't know better. But um, what, what's the most? The most money you think, uh, a coach is pulling in.
Speaker 1:I honestly have no idea. Um, I'll tell you what I know I have. I have no clue how anyone else has structured coaching deals. That's. That's maybe one of the secrets, right? Um, I gotta assume it's gonna be someone interesting, like a. If a coach funded someone and then got back end of that player for a certain amount of time, I gotta think it would be not a salary, it would be like a back end based on um hours given. Uh, at a young age, is it age? Is what my guess would be.
Speaker 3:If you make $100 in a tournament, let's leave the tax implications out of this. But you clear $100 in a tournament. How much of that are you spending on hotels, on labor, on travel, on change teams?
Speaker 1:on labor, on travel, on change, coaching, um, so of, if you make let's let's just call it a million dollars a year, taxes aside, so not taxes not included um, which is different based on play. I mean, the better you get, the more you're spending on coaching right, and because I want the right to, I also want a trainer and I don't want to sit in a locker room and schedule a time for a trainer, have to wait through another two hours. So it's all basically the threshold of what you prefer. I always viewed it as an investment, kind of in myself. Um, if I'm, I'm going to pay for the best trainer.
Speaker 1:How many matches? This is the way I thought of it, like, okay, they want an extra X, I'm going. Okay, well, is this person worth winning three extra, three more matches this year? Will they that that? Then I'm like okay, that pays for itself, but as a takeaway, your expenses are salaries of your team. So, trainer, coach, travel, and I had this thing where I always wanted my team traveling with me. I wasn't going to be the person who, you know, sits in a certain section and throws everyone in the back. So my costs were probably higher than most, but I had to spend all in expenses. I probably had to spend prime of my career close to a million dollars a year. I'm guessing. I don't know, I'd have to think more about that, but that'd be my my guess, just off the top of my head where do federations fit into all this?
Speaker 3:we hear about players changing countries because they get sweeter deals. The, the kazakhs are, uh, new players in this space, uh, but you know, I mean the, the usta funds. I mean I heard recently, you know, jack socks coaching a few years ago was paid for by the USTA, even though he was making seven figures as a tennis player. Where do federations fit into this whole?
Speaker 1:balance sheet.
Speaker 1:It's all different, I think, you know. Frankly speaking, I think federations, if people sign up for what you see too much of the time is, you know, I've seen someone I grew up in juniors with played in the finals of junior nationals take all of the funding right so travel to junior tournaments. Federations can pay for that. Um, federations with slams generally have more money than those without um. But I, I've seen it both ways. I've seen I I kind of didn't take a lot of the money just cause I got kicked out and I didn't. I, I was very conscious of who I took money from, because then all of a sudden you're going to have to pay that back in some way, shape or form. Um, I have also seen people take advantage of federations where it's the federation's fault for not actually, you know, having um terms for funding.
Speaker 1:But I've seen players, you know, uh, come to the U? S from another country, take USTA money for 10 years and then not make it, not make it, not make it, not make it, not make it. Then have a great year, your top 20 or top 30, top 35. Um, and then leave to go play for your country of origin without the usta, with no payback, and I had this person come to me and say, well, what do you think of this? Should I have to pay it back? I go, you're fucking right, you should like, yeah, yeah, they paid for your development like you. You like, I don't think you should be whining about it like you're not, you're not a victim here, for for they should have, they should have banged like you're maybe not, you're not contractually obligated and that's that's completely your call.
Speaker 1:But it's not an offensive request or suggestion that you owe them something for basically paying for 10 years um of development. But you know, at a certain point, with enough um leverage, you know, like you know, davis cup was a negotiation for a while and obviously, you know is a largely discounted fee, um, but a lot of times I would put things in for teammates, you know, in my negotiation, cause that was my job, um as as someone on the team. So it it, it plays for different people in in in different ways. But um, it just depends if you want to take money from a federation or an agency, if you want, you know, a private backer, um, those are all uh pieces to the puzzle, um, but you know, I think you should be eyes wide open when you take something that eventually you know they're going to come for it, and you shouldn't act shocked by it.
Speaker 3:I'm going to sell out Rafa for a second, and I don't even know if this was. This is sort of in the rumor but informed rumors category, but apparently he had this thing where he would at the US Open, he would drape a towel from his hotel I think it was the St Regis, maybe maybe the Peninsula St Regis he would drape it over his chair at changeovers and the rumor was that in exchange for using the hotel towel publicly, he and his team would get rooms. I think that's too good a story to check the facts on, but something to that effect there also. I mean, there's another hotel where, if you play in their pickleball tournament and you tweet something out and you can, you can look up what hotel I'm talking about. Uh, you get to stay there and you and your team free during the U S open. That could be a big cost savings. Did you have a go-to hack for uh economizing?
Speaker 1:Totally. I mean not not go-to, but all those deals are. Deals are out there to where someone's going to do it, like the hotel towel thing. I don't know if that's real or not, but it wouldn't shock me. But all those deals are in play and if both sides win, then a deal is going to get done. It's just going to get done. Had done, um, but those are. Yeah, they were, you know, I would say, once I reached a certain level, uh, in new york I probably didn't pay for a hotel room, and that was even before. It was as easy as as as tweeting it but I mean.
Speaker 3:One thing I've heard is that there are expenses that the common fan would never imagine. You have no idea how expensive this is to play the sport on the flip side. There are also revenue streams that the common fan might not think of. That add to your prize money, um, and I don't know if you want to specify which ones you found. But here.
Speaker 1:Here's our, here's our headline that will be offered with no context. Uh, when people cover, I, I have been paid to attend a bar mitzvah. When I was very young I got paid in cash to attend a bar mitzvah. There are many revenue streams and at some point you basically have. You know, I've always had, I always had a certain number of um, goodwill events that that I would do uh through a year with with no expense, and then the rest of them, if you were showing up, you were benefiting financially. Uh, in some way, shape or form, uh, with no question. So I'm sure there's a million other examples. But yeah, I got paid to go to a bar mitzvah when I was, like, too old to be going to a bar mitzvah.
Speaker 5:How do you establish a rate card for that?
Speaker 1:There's not a rate card. There is a number that I would do it for and there's a number I wouldn't do it for, and you start with a number you would do it for.
Speaker 3:Cocktail hours. It worked.
Speaker 1:I hope cocktail hours worked. Yeah, and if, and, and and. From the other, like and, and. Just frankly speaking, I know this is a disgusting episode, but I think it's hopefully informative and at least gives a peek behind the curtain. But if you really don't want to do something, you can quote a lot higher rate, right, like there's a. There's a number where, if it's annoying, if it's too much travel, if it's if, if, if a sponsor wants too many days, then you basically put that in the terms right, there's a. And then there are some things that you're motivated to do, places you're motivated to play, and that probably factors into some sort of uh discount, uh also, uh, that probably factors into some sort of uh discount, uh also, uh, techie Sean, what's up on on those lines?
Speaker 4:knowing what you know now, is there anything that you would either go back and tell yourself or tell someone coming up now, like financially or running your own business, like, is there any advice that you would give yourself or someone coming up?
Speaker 1:Uh, the equity piece is a big deal. Um, I would request even the simple request of an agent to send paperwork and not just a bottom line. Um, even if you never look at it, um, we always had a, an agent that had recruited uh, an older brother of mine. My agent early on in my career knew that anything he was basically operated like as an advisor, but it was basically a checks and balances for my agency. So they knew that someone who was a retired tennis agent, who had recruited my brother, who was a friend of my brother, didn't end up going pro. A friend of our family uh was at least had the option. We had the option of taking anything they sent and showing it to him before we signed a deal. So it wasn't, it was mostly trust until it was a hundred percent trust, but it didn't start as a trust fall uh with my agency. So I think checks and balances uh should not be taboo and anyone offended by checks and balances is not the right person to have in charge of your orbit.
Speaker 5:As players kind of approach the back end of his career. You know yours was at 30 years old. You know how are you analyzing? You know your financial future right. It's not common for people to retire in their mid-30s, early 30s, late 20s and have $40, $50 million in the bank. How did you look inside and kind of analyze that for yourself and plan for a long-term future?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know, listen, I certainly understood, you know, in 2011, I understood that I needed to kind of think through the next 20 years with a little more urgency than maybe I viewed it when I was 20. But I also think a mistake is made where you're like, OK, I'm retiring, now I need to get serious about, uh, about the cash I have. I think that conversation needs to be had a lot sooner. Um, cause there are so many advantages of of of making money, um, at an early age. Uh, my, my best business in, in, in kind of my post-career was started uh during my career. Um, you know. So I think I think I see too many athletes I'm retired and then, two Tuesdays later, what now? And I think that leads to you know the stories we hear about. You know athletes, whether they're dealing with depression post and it's not, they don't expect you to feel sorry for them when they have that much money. It's just a matter of feeling lost and not knowing what the next week feels like Right, and so, at any level, um, you know, I think that emotion can exist. Emotions don't stop existing because you've done well. Um, there, there are obviously privileges.
Speaker 1:I always say from the moment, I was 19,. I didn't have real life stresses. I didn't worry about food, I didn't worry about homes, I didn be proactive about about what you have Um, and especially so if you have been given the gift of talent and the ability to create money, um, at an early age. Um, you know, as, as, as far as post-career, my focus was so far from tennis for a decade. I mean, we only started this. However, long ago, I only started working with Tennis Channel, frankly speaking, because of a global pandemic and time, and continued because they were happy with me.
Speaker 1:You know, owning my geography, frankly, and not I've been pretty against traveling um, just because I like, I really like my family and um, you know, but I, I think, as soon as a player is comfortable having those conversations and learning um, you know they need to surround themselves with smart people and ask a lot of questions. Some of the things I see, where players go sideways and end up in bankruptcy, et cetera, et cetera is because you are an expert in one thing doesn't make you an expert in all things. Right, and you see that a lot. It's not just in tennis, but if someone's successful in hedge funds and they buy an NFLfl team uh. They automatically assume that they are the smartest person in the room um with uh draft picks or personnel or even, though I have no idea, you guys are in north carolina, or?
Speaker 1:no stop. This is just a general conversation, john um, but I I think there is that thing and we have seen it tragically in tennis with people who should never worry about money in the afterlife now having to worry about money in the afterlife, and I think a fair amount of it is overestimating ability for intelligence and I would say I was probably cocky about a lot of things in tennis and I think having a sense of humility as soon as you step outside of your lane, um matters, and I think that's kind of advice that is that I've tried to hand down for anyone who, uh who, who has asked um, you know, post, post, career.
Speaker 5:Do you think tennis players are shockingly, you know, surrounded by more yes men or yes women, or however you would put it than other athletes? Because they are the industry amongst themselves, right, they are the whole team and brand and everything.
Speaker 1:I actually don't know, because it's. I don't think that's an obvious yes. I think there's probably a lot more grifting in other sports, because you almost have to play for your lunch in tennis every day, right? So you know, you sign an NBA contract with salary and again, remember, there's three to five players who make stupid money at a given moment. I think you know, maybe and maybe that ebbs and flows, maybe it changes over time, but you know, I don't think there's.
Speaker 1:I sign a salary all of a sudden in tennis, I don't think you go from $0 where your first pick in the draft and all of a sudden you have $60 million, um, I think. And then all of a sudden people are going Whoa, this guy. I would like proximity to this person who now has $60 million and maybe not a responsible idea of of what to do with it. I think coaches, trainers, most people around star tennis players, um, kind of benefit together where it's not a take but it's a hopefully in a good scenario, it's a value add. Now there have been tragic stories of um that not being the case, but I don't think tennis comes close to outpacing other sports as far as those, those bad stories on a percentage basis let me ask you a sort of adjacent this is like a cousin of that question, which is all this money time, I think I mean back.
Speaker 3:I think this is an important conversation. I think fans it's interesting, fans talk about it, fans are curious about it. I think players can benefit it. I think sort of the the asymmetry of money talk always hurts the talent, always hurts labor and it always helps management. So I think this is this is effective. But I'm just curious big all of this talk of bonuses and incentives and disincentives, what is the impact of all of this on the quality? How is the sport itself and competition impacted or not impacted by all of these sort of money issues that are percolating?
Speaker 1:I don't think the quality is affected now. I think, frankly, the players are making so much at a certain level now, not in. This has nothing to do with borderline, main level tour players and challengers, because they're grossly underpaid and undercompensated, consistently, compensated consistently, and that's. I think that's an entirely different episode that we need to visit at some point with, with maybe someone telling me what I can't relate to, and I'm completely open to that, that conversation. I don't know that it affects quality now, because I think there's been such a strong precedent structure of how to negotiate obligations. You know, for me it was. I had one rule. It was never as soon as it affected my ability to prepare, not play well, but ability to prepare right To where I'm going in and I'm like I'm 92%. Had I not just blown this week doing photo shoots, I'd be at 100%. So I think the biggest gift to a player is very, very, very consciously clear scheduling, like I think you like the one like if someone's like, oh, we need an appearance and it's three days before a slam and it wasn't organized, no, and I think the ability, the power of no matters and scheduling, you know, before the U S open, I wanted to be done with all sponsor obligations by Thursday. Right, I wanted a clear run and even up to those, uh, they had to respect when I wanted to practice, right, so that took priority every time. And I think the more that players make, I'm glad because I actually see them investing in their teams more right, like you see, you know there's a separate person for body work, there's a physio, there's nutritionists, there's psychologists, and not everyone has all those things. But I kind of like seeing the trend of top players investing in all sides and exploring all those avenues to be better, as opposed to hoovering for fame. And anyone who's going to sacrifice those things was never going to be great anyways. And in my humble opinion, there are people that can afford it. Don't do it. And then I think they that probably is a tell that they don't have that mentality and or care mechanism. Some people want to be famous, some people want to be great, some people can be both All right.
Speaker 1:So this has been a uh, like a weird episode where, like, I kind of feel I'm a little sweaty, um, and or if you haven't figured me out by now looking for a deodorant deal. Um, it's taboo talking about money, especially in excess is is gross and it's, it's, it's weird. Um, I also feel like I don't know if we we we set out to to do this podcast and talk about uncomfortable things and to make it as real as possible and, um, even though it's weird and I understand, it's privileged and I understand all these things, it, it, it was a lived reality and hopefully you all um think it's interesting. Um, there is no part of me that talks about anything to do with money made, had or anything else that isn't thoughtful or isn't aware about how lucky it is. Frankly speaking, I get all that and I understand all that. Hopefully it just gives you we've had a lot of requests tell us about this subject in the comments a lot Possibly the most requested version of the show.
Speaker 1:This is not to do anything other than just give a peek behind the curtain, which was kind of the original conversation between Mike and I on a. Wouldn't it be cool if we did this type uh thing? And it's it's grown and we feel lucky that uh, you have kind of bought in and have listened and are interested in the kind of stuff that goes on uh, behind the scenes, uh of tennis, uh, as always, a huge thank you to John Wertheim. John, do you have any closing thoughts? Anything, uh, any extra? I don't know anything that I missed or that you've noticed that we should talk about, or anything that you just want to talk about more.
Speaker 3:No, it's. Look, it's a weird situation. It's a weird workforce. We think we have income inequality in society. Here's a sport where the top end you could retire a billionaire and the guy on the other side of the net could be taking bananas in his backpack because it'll save him on his per diem. But no, I mean, I think you, you said it really well. I think one of the goals here is always to inform and give fans a little bit different way of seeing the sport, and the fact of the matter is people are having these conversations behind closed doors. Um, it's like any talk about money is is indelicate, as you say. It's a bit of a taboo, but I think it's, it's relevant and I think it's important to have these, these conversations and, uh, you know, maybe, maybe there's a future conversation about even pivoting to what are your finances like post tennis. But I think, uh, I think this is well handled and I think a lot of people will be really informed by this.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thank you, I think, also something that, depending on on we do, we do value your feedback. We see, I try to stay away from it a little bit, but our team checks out comments and there's a constant conversation about what might be interesting and what might not be, so we'll see what the reaction is to this show. I think there's an interesting look forward as far as what's next and money in tennis. Obviously, the TNT deal that just got signed for the French open is a massive TV deal Player brands, how they're different, how they'll change over time, what's different than you know, what's going to be different in 10 years? Maybe just a forward look to the same conversation, of which I'd have to get a lot smarter about because, um, I certainly haven't lived that experience. Um, so I always try to talk about what I know and then ask questions about what I don't. Um, hopefully, that's a good place, uh, for us to land on this.
Speaker 1:Uh, john Wertheim, thanks man, I know you've been all over the world in the last couple of days, so I appreciate you. Uh are the last week anyways. Uh, I appreciate you for checking in. I now hit his time for hashtag. Get served by Roddick with our friends at swing vision, but I would be, uh, completely out of form If we went through an entire show, which, uh, you'll have the 52 minute version on T2. And I think the extended version on pod and or YouTube will end up being closer an hour and a half or plus. And producer Mike has been wearing a like there's no chance that I can't bring up this move, that you are wearing a hat that says prebiotic daddy, oh yeah prebiotic daddy.
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, and, and I can only like can you, can you just? Explain yourself for a second. It's father's day first of all.
Speaker 5:Okay, so happy father's day to all you dads, happy father's day to me, the prebiotic daddy uh but you know what I I am and I gotta say you know I'm a prebiotic daddy. I I got the uh barbie Olipops in the house. We just got them shipped in I see what you're doing. You know little peaches and cream, yeah, you know, and I got them for the girls and they said you know what, Dad? Thank you so much. You're the prebiotic daddy.
Speaker 1:And boom, our friends at sent it to us. Yeah, I think this is uh on the heels of a entire show, um, about, uh, different revenue streams. You've taken it to a new level with prebiotic daddy. Uh, my kids also love ollie pop. I didn't drink soda for close to 20 years and now I do, because there is a product that is uh good for you and still tastes like nostalgia. It is phenomenal. My personal favorite vintage cola today.
Speaker 1:So apparently producer mike's new name is prebiotic daddy uh mike, another one of our partners, uh helped us put together this great segment hashtag. Get served by roddick, where basically submissions are sent in to our good friends at swing vision with their technologies, uh, that can analyze uh ball placement, swing speeds, uh ball speeds, etc. Etc.
Speaker 5:Etc more than they can roller garros that's right you send.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no shit like if only rolling garros. If a rolling garros would have had swing vision, we might have had a different winner.
Speaker 4:I'll just tell you that right now, like I just say too soon. Okay, anyways, deal with it uh.
Speaker 1:Anyways, mike, who do we got uh this week on get hashtag?
Speaker 5:get served uh by roddick we got a derrick burby in the rally. Derrick's wearing the red shirt and, uh, you know he's a massive uh roddick fan.
Speaker 1:Let's check it out. Let's check out d burby, okay, so this is.
Speaker 5:Derek, 74 mile an hour flat in the back, right in the back. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:I love this. Oh, I love this so much.
Speaker 5:That is not nothing, that's not nothing.
Speaker 1:Derek Burby. Look at it guys he won't get in his way again. I wouldn't trust him. Oh, derek, I love it. Thanks for being a fan of the show.
Speaker 5:Thank you for sending this in. How's the form? Let's talk about the form.
Speaker 1:The form is okay. You know there's not enough ankle. There's like he's kind of the feet shuffle as he's serving. If you see him set up here, I mean there's a reason why he missed this serve into his partner's back. I'll tell you that right now he gets the and his partner's going nowhere near. He's like you're not going to get me again. The grip's a little bit closed. But then he gets away with one. I think he missed it, but this one you want to see the racket kind of closed, it's a little bit laid off, it's a little Magoo uh. But all of that is bearing the headline of we've all been hit in the back uh by a partner, uh, on the doubles court. Uh, this was fun.
Speaker 1:This did not look choreographed like some of our uh previous entries. Derek Burby, uh, thank you for, uh, for sending in this, uh this video, uh, this offering. Uh, maybe give an ollie pop to your uh. Your an apology. It happens, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel bad about it. Thank you for watching. Served Prebiotic Daddy. Thanks for your work on the show this week. Techie, sean, appreciate your. Social Sophie Dominating. Everyone is copying social Sophie, including our friends at Tennis Channel. Anyways, we love T2. We love tennis channel. Uh, download TC plus. If you can't get enough of Roland Garros, it doesn't have to be over, you can go back and watch it. Uh, check us out on YouTube. All of the things, all of the podcasts, all of the audio uh, spotify, apple, uh. So on uh behalf of a prebiotic daddy, thank you for watching served. We'll see you next week.